{"id":306708,"date":"2021-02-02T07:00:06","date_gmt":"2021-02-02T12:00:06","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/breaking-free\/"},"modified":"2021-02-02T07:00:06","modified_gmt":"2021-02-02T12:00:06","slug":"breaking-free","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/breaking-free\/","title":{"rendered":"Breaking Free"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Have you or someone you love been swept up in the influence of pornography? Join Dave and Ann Wilson as they talk with Dr. Joe Rigney, author of More Than a Battle, about how to find healing.<br \/>\nShow Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tDownload FamilyLife&#8217;s new app! https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/<br \/>\n \tFind resources from this podcast at https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130.<br \/>\n \tCheck out all that&#8217;s available on the FamilyLife Podcast Network.\u00a0 https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Pornography actually re-wires God-given parts of our brains meant to draw us to our mate. Dr. Joe Rigney talks about unmasking the devil\u2019s schemes and finding freedom.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/fltoday.s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com\/fl2021-02-02.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:25:07","filesize":"23M","filesize_raw":"24117877","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2844],"tags":[2872,6970,2989],"podcast_series":[8426],"cwp_profile":[9689],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-306708","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-pornography","tag-addiction","tag-life-issues","tag-pornography","podcast_series-more-than-a-battle","cwp_profile-joe-rigney","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/306708\/breaking-free","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/306708\/breaking-free","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"VNaOsOalT0\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/breaking-free\/\">Breaking Free<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/breaking-free\/embed\/#?secret=VNaOsOalT0\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Breaking Free&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"VNaOsOalT0\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/familylifetodaypdfs.s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com\/fl2021-02-02.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/fltoday.s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com\/fl2021-02-02.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<b>Bob: <\/b>Jesus had some strong things to say about the issue of lust and about how we deal with that. Joe Rigney says we need to better understand what drives us, as men, to look at pornography. What\u2019s the hunger we\u2019re trying to satisfy?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> When a man goes to pornography, you might think he\u2019s just interested in naked women; but part of what he\u2019s doing, in the fantasizing, he\u2019s imagining himself in the scenario; and he\u2019s picturing himself as a strong, masculine man, capable of satisfying a woman. I think that, for many men, the actual pull to pornography is a deep desire for validation.\n\n<b>Bob: <\/b>This is <i>FamilyLife Today<\/i> for Tuesday, February 2<sup>nd<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. If we\u2019re going to root out the issue of lust in our lives, we need to understand what\u2019s really driving us. We\u2019ll talk more about that today with Joe Rigney. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <i>FamilyLife Today<\/i>. Thanks for joining us. This is an old thing; some of our listeners will have no idea what we\u2019re talking about.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> An old thing; you\u2019re not talking about us? [Laughter]\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> I am talking about\u2014\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> First thing I thought of.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> I am talking about us! Back when I was a kid, there were no recycling bins or recycling centers; but from time to time, people would put their newspapers out at the curb; and the Boy Scouts would have a paper drive. We\u2019d come through and pick up the stacks of papers; you\u2019d be making some money by getting recycled goods.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> I remember those, Bob.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> I was a Boy Scout\/actually, a Cub Scout on a Cub Scout paper drive one Saturday morning\u2014out picking up sacks of paper from the neighbors. One guy had sat out at the curb a sack of old pornographic magazines. I don\u2019t remember exactly how old I was, but I remember\u2014\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> You remember.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> \u2014picking up that sack\u2014\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> \u2014and going, \u201cOh, my goodness!\u201d We took it back to the truck, where we were loading everything up. I said, \u201cI\u2019ll stay here at the truck and just move stuff toward the back while you guys make the next run.\u201d That was my fall into the pit.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> How old were you?\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Nine or ten years old.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Oh, man.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Years later, I was with a group of guys at church\u2014fathers and sons\u2014and I just, on the spur of the moment, said, \u201cLet\u2019s do this\u2014let\u2019s go around the circle, dads\u2014and tell the rest of us: \u2018When was your first exposure to porn?\u2019\u201d I told my Cub Scout story.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nAnd it wasn\u2019t, \u201c<i>if<\/i> you had one,\u201d\u2014<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> \u2014it was, \u201cTell us <i>when <\/i>it was.\u201d Every dad could tell his story.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nI think every son heard every dad telling their story and went, first, \u201cOkay, so what I\u2019ve felt\u201d or \u201cMaybe what I\u2019ve fallen into is not: \u2018I\u2019m the only bad person in the world.\u2019\u201d\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> But secondly, there was something that happened just in that communication, and in that moment, that opened things up.\n\nWe\u2019re talking about how we get out of the pit once we\u2019ve fallen in. Dr. Joe Rigney is joining us this week on <i>FamilyLife Today. <\/i>Joe, welcome back.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> I\u2019m glad to be here.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes, we\u2019ve got to answer that question. Probably every man listening, and probably some women, are going, \u201cI know that story.\u201d\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> It\u2019s a similar story. A lot of times, eight, nine, ten years old, some inadvertent stumbling onto it; but that <i>power<\/i>! Like I can\u2019t remember the first time I ever looked at a <i>Sports Illustrated<\/i> sports magazine; I don\u2019t remember it. Why don\u2019t I remember that?\u2014it\u2019s just a sports thing; I\u2019m watching or looking at pictures of athletes. But a visual sexual image has a <i>power<\/i>.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> Well, here\u2019s the\u2014\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> We\u2019ve got Dr. Joe to tell us: \u201cWhat is that?\u201d \u201cWhy is that?\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> And, well, here\u2019s <i>my<\/i> image: I was four or five years old\u2014one of the younger cousins of twelve cousins\/we lived around each other. Our older cousins told my cousin and I, who were four or five, \u201cGo steal or grab any pornography\u201d\u2014they would say, \u201cany magazines of naked girls\u201d\u2014\"out of our uncle\u2019s bedroom\u201d or \u201cstash\u201d\u2014or whatever\u2014\u201cand then bring it back to us.\u201d\n\nWhat does that communicate to a little girl?\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Oh, wow!\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u201cOur dads or uncles have it.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u201cOur cousins want it.\u201d When we found it and looked at it, my thought was, \u201cThis is what a man wants,\u201d\u2014\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u2014and \u201cThis is who I need to be.\u201d\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes; Joe has written a book called <i>More Than a Battle.<\/i> You describe your own battle with this issue; but you also talk about how God led you out of this and what you\u2019ve seen, as an ongoing pattern, for how guys can get free from this temptation.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> That\u2019s right. You know, part of it is actually trying to help us see that there are multiple lenses that we have to use when we think about this struggle. I tend to default to the battle imagery\u2014you know, \u201cput your sin to death,\u201d\u2014that sort of thing\u2014but there are also ways in which this is an addiction. There\u2019s a deep, bodily dimension to this struggle.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nYou know, there are sections in the book about the way that dopamine and endorphins, and all of these things, kind of get involved to, basically, take snapshots of those arousal moments. Your body is saying, \u201cThat felt good; I want it to happen again.\u201d We need to just stop here and say: \u201cThis is the wisdom of God that that happens; that\u2019s design. That snapshot of: \u2018Wow! That was a pleasant experience; I want that again,\u2019\u2014that\u2019s for marriage\u2014it\u2019s meant to bind a husband and a wife together in a one-flesh union. That\u2019s what that\u2019s for!\u201d\n\nThen sin; right? These companies and the devil are using that good gift and exploiting a weakness in it, which is, \u201cYou know, you could have that same bodily experience at some level with an image on a screen or with the fantasy in your mind.\u201d Recognizing the way that our bodies\u2014we can actually weapon-ize our bodies to where we make sin easy and real relationships hard.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nThere\u2019s a bodily dimension, and then there\u2019s this kind of\/I call it a \u201cbrokenness lens.\u201d There are ways in which other issues in our lives\/other areas of brokenness can actually be the driver of our sexual sin. I talk about: \u201cThere are sins that steal headlines, and then there are sins that <i>fund<\/i> newspapers,\u201d\u2014okay?\n\nLust is a headline stealer. When you fall into that, it\u2019s the one that you <i>feel<\/i>\u2014there\u2019s guilt; there\u2019s shame\u2014there\u2019s all of that that just carries on you. But playing in a back room some place in that theater is another sin: it might be anxiety; it might be desire for power; it might be anger at God. There are all kinds of other sins that are actually the issue, and this is the presenting symptom. Until you deal with these other backroom-type sins, you\u2019re never going to get free; because they\u2019re <i>fueling<\/i> the intensity of that desire.\n\nI\u2019m trying to take it and say, \u201cHey! We need to get a more wholistic view of this struggle. It\u2019s not just about the images; it\u2019s not just about sexual desire. It\u2019s really, really complex; and it takes wisdom to try to untangle.\u201d\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Is that why you\u2019ve titled your book <i>More Than a Battle<\/i>?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Exactly.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Is that where you\u2019re getting that?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> That\u2019s exactly right.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Because I think, for a lot of men\u2014and, again, I can\u2019t speak for women; but I know it\u2019s an issue\u2014it\u2019s easy to think, \u201cOh, come on, dude; there\u2019s nothing in the backroom. It\u2019s just that I want to look at a naked woman. I don\u2019t need to go in the backroom.\u201d Talk about that.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> What is fueling it that so many of us don\u2019t understand?\u2014but we <i>have to <\/i>get at the root.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Here\u2019s a good example: I think, that for many men, the actual pull to pornography is a deep desire for validation. When a man goes to pornography, you might think he\u2019s just interested in naked women; but part of what he\u2019s doing, in the fantasizing, is he\u2019s imagining himself in the scenario; and he\u2019s picturing himself as a strong, masculine man, capable of satisfying a woman.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nAgain, this is a good gift; this is that a husband and wife, in marriage, receive pleasure by giving pleasure. It\u2019s a mutually\/it\u2019s a glorious and beautiful thing. In the image, it\u2019s: \u201cI\u2019m creating a version of myself; and I\u2019m able to be a strong man.\u201d The real hunger there is often: \u201cI want to be perceived and seen as a strong man,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s the drug.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nSo then, you have to step back and have to go, \u201cWell, where is that supposed to be met?\u201d There\u2019s a good thing under there\u2014there\u2019s a desire to be a strong man\u2014it\u2019s a good desire. \u201cWhere did God intend for us to fulfill that desire?\u201d And then there are lots of answers to that question\u2014\u201cin marriage,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s one place; a wife respecting her husband\u2014\u201cwith other men\/like for other men to respect you and to view you.\u201d This is one of the things that I notice, in looking back at my own struggle. I notice that, if I thought other men were looking down on me\u2014like as a college student, if I wasn\u2019t doing well in the opinion polls\u2014[Laughter]\u2014you know, among 18- to 25-year-olds, my approval rating was down in my self-assessment; right?\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> In taking my Gallup poll, my approval rating\u2019s down, that made sexual sin really attractive for some reason. I never knew, at the time, what was going on; but there was a deep kind of spiritual, emotional, psychological thing happening, where\u2014because I was not having this sense of approval from this group\u2014that woman on the screen: \u201cShe thinks I\u2019m awesome!\u201d\u2014in the fantasy I\u2019m playing in my head.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nThen, you have to take it even deeper. Where\u2019s the fundamental approval supposed to come from?\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> It comes from God.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Right.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> He\u2019s our Father; this is what the gospel is for! \u201cI approve you: \u2018Well done!\u2019\u201d \u201cThis is My beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s what God said to Jesus\u2014and because we\u2019re in Jesus, that\u2019s what God says about us. The fundamental approval is <i>there<\/i>, but that\u2019s a weird thing to think: \u201cI\u2019m going to fight my sexual sin by reminding myself that God approves me.\u201d\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> If you don\u2019t get that that\u2019s what\u2019s really underneath, that won\u2019t make any sense; so we\u2019ve got to really untangle and do the heart work.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes; and I think the typical guy\u2014and I\u2019m being that guy; and again, I\u2019m not saying women don\u2019t think the same way\u2014it\u2019s like: \u201cYes, but to do it the real way is so <i>hard<\/i>.\u201d\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Porn is easy!\u2014you can look at it, and you feel all that stuff. I walk in my bedroom, and it\u2019s like, \u201cOhh, my wife wants me to <i>taaalk <\/i>[Laughter] about our relationship. I don\u2019t know if I should rub her shoulder or\u2026\u201d You know what I\u2019m saying?\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> I\u2019m having fun with it, but it <i>is <\/i>so much harder to be intimate\u2014real intimacy with my wife\u2014than it is to just get that superficial hit\u2014\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> I\u2019m finding\u2014\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> \u2014and with God, by the way, too.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u2014as we\u2019ve been doing marriage conferences for <i>Weekend to Remember<\/i><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> [getaways] for over 30 years, I\u2019ve noticed a trend in that, at the beginning, when we first started doing our conferences, I would have women come up to me and say, \u201cOh, my goodness! I don\u2019t know what to do. My husband is <i>always<\/i> wanting to have an intimate sexual relationship with me.\u201d Now, I\u2019m finding one of the bigger complaints is: \u201cMy husband has no desire for me.\u201d<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> And so, the question is: \u201cWhy?\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u201cAre they having their needs met?\u201d\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes\u2014\u201csomeplace else.\u201d<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes; I think you\u2019re right. For many men, a relationship with a real woman looks suspiciously like work\u2014[Laughter]\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> That\u2019s so depressing! [Laughter]\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> \u2014you know? And that\/when we talk about other sins that are feeding into this sin, the kind of laziness that says, \u201cMan, cultivating a real relationship with my wife takes effort!\u201d And it\u2019s not because we don\u2019t love our wives or anything like that. It\u2019s just the same way a wife cultivating a relationship with her husband: it takes effort. People are hard; imaginary people are way easier!\n\nC.S. Lewis described\u2014I quote this in the book\u2014it\u2019s a letter that he\u2019s writing to somebody, who asked him for advice about this issue. He talks about, you know, \u201cThe real sin in pornography is the creation of the imaginary harem.\u201d He says, you know, \u201cWe collect this imaginary harem with women who far outstrip; because they have all the qualities that we want, with none of the downside; and we are the perfect person in the scenario, who\u2019s perfectly able.\u201d He says that pornography, basically, becomes \u201ca mirror in which we can increasingly worship ourselves.\u201d<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> Wow!\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Whoa.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> It\u2019s a mirror for our distorted manhood. We\u2019re seeing our distorted glory reflected in the supposed satisfaction of the fantasy. It\u2019s really a self-worship that\u2019s happening in this thing. That\u2019s a deeper issue; and that\u2019s a different issue than simply: \u201cOh, guys like to look at naked women.\u201d It\u2019s more complicated than that.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes, it is really deep-centered\/rooted. I know that I\u2019ve often talked to men, also, about the fear of intimacy.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> It\u2019s sort of a superficial intimacy. Intimacy with your wife, or even being really a close friend with another guy, is <i>hard work. <\/i>It takes <i>courage<\/i> to open your soul and bare weakness, you know, with your wife and not know how she\u2019s going to respond.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Right.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> And something on a screen is <i>so easy<\/i>.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> But when I was reading your book, I was sort of struck\u2014because your struggle\/you talk about that, and we talk about that\u2014there\u2019s part of me, right now, that\u2019s like, \u201cOkay, let\u2019s get to the victory\u201d; you know?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> There\u2019s a turning in your life, where I was like, \u201cWhoa!\u201d You had a revelation\/an understanding that started you on a path toward, you know, you\u2019re writing about victory now. Talk about that; what changed?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Marriage was a big element of it. When I got engaged, it basically upped the stakes. I think that was a major thing that the Lord used to snap me awake of like: \u201cYou can\u2019t just muddle through here.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> \u201cThere\u2019s another person involved, whom you love. You <i>love<\/i> her! You don\u2019t want to hurt her.\u201d\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> Were you afraid?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Oh, of course! I was terrified. The kind of things we were talking about: \u201cI\u2019m going to have to confess something if I fall.\u201d I don\u2019t <i>ever <\/i>want to see that look on my wife\u2019s face; I don\u2019t <i>ever <\/i>want to have to have that conversation with her, ever again.\n\nNow, this actually produced certain kinds of distortions we can talk about, as well, in terms of the relationship; because a husband, who\u2019s dealing with this, can begin to treat his wife like God, and feel like, \u201cI\u2019m not forgiven until I\u2019ve been forgiven by her, and she\u2019s happy with me again,\u201d\u2014\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> \u2014as opposed to\u2014I mean, you need to confess to make it right with her; but your fundamental forgiveness: \u201cWho can forgive sins but God alone?\u2014He\u2019s the One who forgives sin!\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> When you do that\u2014and I know exactly what you\u2019re saying\u2014you lay that weight on <i>her<\/i>\u2014\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes!\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> \u2014like, \u201cYou to have to forgive me; and until you do, I\u2019m not good.\u201d Then it\u2019s like a weight she shouldn\u2019t have to bear.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Exactly; right. She can\u2019t be God to you, just like you can\u2019t be God to her.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> There\u2019s a way in which, sometimes, guys can get into a trap of unhealthy habits of confession, where I feel\/have a guilty conscience because of something I thought, or did, or whatever\u2014and then I need to vomit it on her\u2014then, \u201cBoy, I feel relief!\u201d because I just got it out; but now, she\u2019s covered in it.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> She\u2019s carrying it; it\u2019s not fair. It\u2019s another way that we\u2019re harming our wives in that way.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nA big shift for me was recognizing the value of other men, particularly older and wiser men, helping me. The pattern of confession that I\u2019ve cultivated, and commend to others, is: \u201cFirst, when you sin, you confess it to God\u2014no minced words; no euphemisms; no beating around the bush\u2014just: \u2018What did you do?\u2019 Confess sincerely, honestly, forthrightly confess to God. The Bible says: \u201cIf we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse up from all unrighteousness,\u201d\u2014period.\n\nFrom there, it\u2019s confessing it to other men. And the reason we\u2019re doing that is\u2014James says: \u201cConfess your sins one to another that you may be healed.\u201d The confession to the other men is for healing and, I would say, counsel. I\u2019m going to them, and I\u2019m saying: \u201cHey, here\u2019s what I did...\u201d \u201cHere\u2019s the temptation I faced\u2026\u201d \u201cHere\u2019s how, for two seconds, I clicked on something,\u201d\u2014or whatever it is\/whatever the thing is. Now, I\u2019m confessing it to them; and I\u2019m saying, \u201cNow, you help me. How should I talk to my wife about it? What should I say?\u201d Then I\u2019m running it by <i>them<\/i>.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nThe goal here\u2014this is where the wives\/this is really important for wives\u2014the guys you\u2019re doing that with, she needs to trust. She needs to know they\u2019re going to be as hard on you as God is. They\u2019re going to call you to live up to the standard that God wants you to live up to; because otherwise, she\u2019s going to feel like, \u201cI need to be involved here, because no one\u2019s going to care about your holiness more than me,\u201d which isn\u2019t true. God actually cares about your holiness more than she does, but the felt sense of fear and anger\u2014she wants to be involved.\n\nThere has to be a right ordering. She can be an ally, but only if she\u2019s your wife and not God; and not your main accountability partner in this struggle, because she won\u2019t understand: \u201cWhat do you mean? Like it was two seconds that woman walked by, and your eyes just went there? What\u2019s wrong with you?\u201d I say, \u201cWell, men and women are different: their temptations are different; the way we experience reality is different, and it\u2019s good.\u201d But she\u2019s not going to get it, so you want to be able to confess to other men.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nThis was a game-changer for me in having a wise, older counselor, who embodied what I call \u201cgospel presence.\u201d There are two elements to that gospel presence. On the one hand, there was a compassionate stability. What I mean is\u2014I could tell him anything, and he was going to lean in. It didn\u2019t matter what came out of my mouth, he was going to lean in and say, \u201cHey, I just want you to know, I\u2019m for you. I\u2019m for you! I\u2019m with you. I\u2019m not running away.\u201d\n\nBecause the fear\u2014right? \u2014is: \u201cIf I say this out loud, he\u2019s going to go, \u2018Whoa!\u2019 and freak out, and I\u2019m going to be confirmed in: \u2018I am the worst sinner, and nobody else has been as bad as me.\u2019\u201d But instead, he goes, \u201cAlright; I heard it. We\u2019re going to deal with that. I\u2019m with you.\u201d That was <i>massive<\/i> in terms of like, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m safe here.\u201d Gospel presence made it safe for sinners.\n\nBut the second part was focused hostility\u2014it\u2019s not safe for sin\u2014\u201cNow, we\u2019ve got to go to work.\u201d It\u2019s not just, \u201cWe\u2019re going to get together. You\u2019re going to vent; and I\u2019m going to say, \u2018It\u2019s okay; God loves you anyway,\u2019 and \u2018I\u2019ll see you later.\u2019\u201d It was: \u201cOkay; now, what kind of things are we going to do, going forward? What kind of wise strategies are we going to put in place, out of this gospel reality that I love you and am communicating the love of God to you? Out of that, what are we going to do different tomorrow so that we\u2019re not back here again?\u201d\n\nIt was that combination of compassionate stability and focused hostility that was a <i>massive<\/i> game-changer for me in the struggle.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> How did you find this friend? Because a lot of wives would be saying, \u201cMy husband has no men like that.\u201d\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> He was a college pastor at Texas A&amp;M. I got to know him; he did our pre-marital counseling and was massively helpful, both in terms of my own personal, and then in helping us to work together. When we moved up here, right after we got married, I would still call him and say, \u201cHey, there\u2019s fall out from the struggles\/the confession that happened during engagement; and it\u2019s still kind of lingering. Help me.\u201d\n\nHe helped work through some of those things\u2014the relational complications that come\u2014this is a major focus of the book. When I wrote this, the idea was: \u201cI want to write a book that guys, who struggle, and guys, who want to help guys who struggle, can read together and then talk about.\u201d\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Let me ask you this: \u201cDo you think it can be a dad with his son?\u201d\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes!<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes; I mean, I haven\u2019t gotten there yet\u2014I\u2019ve got an 11-year-old and a 9-year-old\u2014we\u2019ve begun those conversations. It\u2019s not just a \u201ctalk\u201d; it\u2019s the \u201ctalks\u201d\u2014plural.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> Give us an example; what does that sound like?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> With my 11-year-old, this was probably about a year ago or so, I got some resources that kind of walked through just the birds-and-the-bees type stuff; right? One day, my wife took the other kids and went off. It was just me and him; and I said, \u201cHey, you want to talk?\u201d We pulled out the book, and I just kind of walked through it with him and answered some questions.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nAfter a little bit, he was kind of like, \u201cOkay; that\u2019s how it works. Okay, okay.\u201d Then, afterwards, he was like, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m done talking about this now.\u201d [Laughter] It was clear, he was like, \u201cI\u2019m done.\u201d Now, it\u2019s going to be like: \u201cWe need to revisit that,\u201d or as things come up. It\u2019s never going to be like, \u201cOkay, I\u2019ve checked that box.\u201d It\u2019s the <i>beginning<\/i> of a conversation in which, as new things arise: so we talk about modesty; we talk about things like that; we talk about \u201cwise eyes\u201d when we\u2019re watching TV and a commercial comes on\u2014I\u2019ll say to our boys, \u201cHey, wise eyes!\u201d\u2014that means their eyes go down, and my eyes go down.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> I want to show them, \u201cIt\u2019s not that is okay for Dad to watch whatever that is, but it\u2019s not for you.\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cNo; <i>none<\/i> of us need to see whatever that was.\u201d \u201cWise eyes look down\u201d; okay? That means they know: \u201cHey, Dad\/we\u2019re the same in this; he\u2019s in the struggle with us.\u201d\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Right.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> I\u2019m hoping that that means, when the time comes\u2014you know, in the next couple of years, when it becomes more acute\u2014that there\u2019s an openness and a transparency that they\u2019ll feel like they can talk to me; and I can then tell them the same thing you guys were talking about earlier: \u201cHere\u2019s the story\u2026\u201d<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> I think there are a lot of dads listening who are afraid to take that step with their son, whether they\u2019re ten, or fifteen, or eighteen; because they\u2019re not winning.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> You know, they\u2019re in the middle of the struggle; they\u2019re not winning. Maybe they\u2019re hiding.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> And they\u2019re like, \u201cI don\u2019t have\u2014I haven\u2019t won,\u201d and \u201cI\u2019m not winning; I\u2019m not making the right choices, so I don\u2019t go there.\u201d\n\nI would just say this: \u201cToday\u2019s your day.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> \u201cStart the step toward freedom. It\u2019s real! Joe\u2019s experienced it; I\u2019ve experienced it; Bob\u2019s experienced it.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> \u201cI know the battle, but I also know victory. It can <i>happen<\/i>.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> \u201cBut you\u2019ve got to take a step to tell somebody. Get the book!\u2014be the first step.\u201d\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> And let me ask this real quick, too: \u201cA single mom\u2014\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u2014\u201cor a wife, who has a husband, who will not enter into this conversation,\u2014\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u2014\u201cshould we, as women, enter into that?\u201d\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> \u2014with a son?\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u2014with a son.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> I would probably say that\u2019s where you\u2019re going to want to get a pastor involved.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u2014which could be kind of weird and creepy if they don\u2019t know him.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> What it mean is\u2014it\u2019s got to be about community. This is where your family needs to be embedded in a church, where you have\/where there\u2019s that overlap. If it\u2019s a single mom, you know, there are all kinds of reasons you want your son to be around other godly men. You\u2019re going to be working together on: \u201cHey, he\u2019s missing something that he needs. One of those things is how to help him with this struggle.\u201d\n\nI think that, for most boys, talking to mom about this is going to make things <i>harder<\/i>.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u2014and weird.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> \u2014and weirder.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> The more that it can be mentors and pastors, and people like that, who are helping them and providing that. That was true for me\u2014my dad could have talked about it, I think, but didn\u2019t\u2014so I found other mentors: youth pastors\/guys like that, who were helpful.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Here\u2019s what\u2019s critical: don\u2019t just think, \u201cI\u2019ll get a copy of Joe\u2019s book and put it on my son\u2019s bed,\u201d or \u201cI\u2019ll get a copy and read it, and hopefully it will help.\u201d What you\u2019re saying here is: \u201cIt takes more than just information. It takes guys and accountability.\u201d Our hope is that a lot of guys will go through this book with other guys: fathers and sons; men going through this with other guys from church.\n\nWe\u2019re making Joe\u2019s book available this week to <i>FamilyLife Today <\/i>listeners. Any of you who\u2019d like a copy, you can go online, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to request your copy. We\u2019re asking that you would make a donation to support the ongoing work of this ministry, and we\u2019ll send you Joe\u2019s book as a thank-you gift. We really want to see men engaging with other men around this subject. Again, we\u2019d love to send you a copy of Joe\u2019s book as a way of saying, \u201cThank you for your support of the work of <i>FamilyLife Today.<\/i>\u201d<i><span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span><\/i>\n\nWe are listener-supported; you are the people who make today\u2019s program possible. If you\u2019ve never made a donation, somebody made today\u2019s program possible for <i>you<\/i>. You can pay it forward for somebody else; go to FamilyLifeToday.com to donate, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. Again, ask for your copy of the book, <i>More Than a Battle, <\/i>by Joe Rigney when you get in touch with us. We look forward to sending you a copy; and thanks, in advance, for your support of the ministry.\n\nNow, tomorrow, we want to talk about why we have such a distorted view of what God\u2019s good gift of marital intimacy is supposed to look like. We\u2019ll continue our conversation about how we defeat lust in our lives\/how we gain victory over pornography. Joe Rigney\u2019s going to be back with us tomorrow. I hope you can be back as well.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll see you back tomorrow for another edition of <i>FamilyLife Today<\/i>.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<i>FamilyLife Today<\/i> is a production of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> of Little Rock, Arkansas;<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\na Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs? <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2021 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\n<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a> <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:25:07"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["23M"],"filesize_raw":["24117877"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-306708.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-306708.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: 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actually re-wires God-given parts of our brains meant to draw us to our mate. Dr. Joe Rigney talks about unmasking the devil\u2019s schemes and finding freedom.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/familylifetodaypdfs.s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com\/fl2021-02-02.pdf","transcript_content":"<b>Bob: <\/b>Jesus had some strong things to say about the issue of lust and about how we deal with that. Joe Rigney says we need to better understand what drives us, as men, to look at pornography. What\u2019s the hunger we\u2019re trying to satisfy?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> When a man goes to pornography, you might think he\u2019s just interested in naked women; but part of what he\u2019s doing, in the fantasizing, he\u2019s imagining himself in the scenario; and he\u2019s picturing himself as a strong, masculine man, capable of satisfying a woman. I think that, for many men, the actual pull to pornography is a deep desire for validation.\n\n<b>Bob: <\/b>This is <i>FamilyLife Today<\/i> for Tuesday, February 2<sup>nd<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. If we\u2019re going to root out the issue of lust in our lives, we need to understand what\u2019s really driving us. We\u2019ll talk more about that today with Joe Rigney. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <i>FamilyLife Today<\/i>. Thanks for joining us. This is an old thing; some of our listeners will have no idea what we\u2019re talking about.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> An old thing; you\u2019re not talking about us? [Laughter]\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> I am talking about\u2014\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> First thing I thought of.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> I am talking about us! Back when I was a kid, there were no recycling bins or recycling centers; but from time to time, people would put their newspapers out at the curb; and the Boy Scouts would have a paper drive. We\u2019d come through and pick up the stacks of papers; you\u2019d be making some money by getting recycled goods.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> I remember those, Bob.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> I was a Boy Scout\/actually, a Cub Scout on a Cub Scout paper drive one Saturday morning\u2014out picking up sacks of paper from the neighbors. One guy had sat out at the curb a sack of old pornographic magazines. I don\u2019t remember exactly how old I was, but I remember\u2014\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> You remember.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> \u2014picking up that sack\u2014\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> \u2014and going, \u201cOh, my goodness!\u201d We took it back to the truck, where we were loading everything up. I said, \u201cI\u2019ll stay here at the truck and just move stuff toward the back while you guys make the next run.\u201d That was my fall into the pit.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> How old were you?\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Nine or ten years old.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Oh, man.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Years later, I was with a group of guys at church\u2014fathers and sons\u2014and I just, on the spur of the moment, said, \u201cLet\u2019s do this\u2014let\u2019s go around the circle, dads\u2014and tell the rest of us: \u2018When was your first exposure to porn?\u2019\u201d I told my Cub Scout story.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nAnd it wasn\u2019t, \u201c<i>if<\/i> you had one,\u201d\u2014<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> \u2014it was, \u201cTell us <i>when <\/i>it was.\u201d Every dad could tell his story.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nI think every son heard every dad telling their story and went, first, \u201cOkay, so what I\u2019ve felt\u201d or \u201cMaybe what I\u2019ve fallen into is not: \u2018I\u2019m the only bad person in the world.\u2019\u201d\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> But secondly, there was something that happened just in that communication, and in that moment, that opened things up.\n\nWe\u2019re talking about how we get out of the pit once we\u2019ve fallen in. Dr. Joe Rigney is joining us this week on <i>FamilyLife Today. <\/i>Joe, welcome back.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> I\u2019m glad to be here.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes, we\u2019ve got to answer that question. Probably every man listening, and probably some women, are going, \u201cI know that story.\u201d\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> It\u2019s a similar story. A lot of times, eight, nine, ten years old, some inadvertent stumbling onto it; but that <i>power<\/i>! Like I can\u2019t remember the first time I ever looked at a <i>Sports Illustrated<\/i> sports magazine; I don\u2019t remember it. Why don\u2019t I remember that?\u2014it\u2019s just a sports thing; I\u2019m watching or looking at pictures of athletes. But a visual sexual image has a <i>power<\/i>.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> Well, here\u2019s the\u2014\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> We\u2019ve got Dr. Joe to tell us: \u201cWhat is that?\u201d \u201cWhy is that?\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> And, well, here\u2019s <i>my<\/i> image: I was four or five years old\u2014one of the younger cousins of twelve cousins\/we lived around each other. Our older cousins told my cousin and I, who were four or five, \u201cGo steal or grab any pornography\u201d\u2014they would say, \u201cany magazines of naked girls\u201d\u2014\"out of our uncle\u2019s bedroom\u201d or \u201cstash\u201d\u2014or whatever\u2014\u201cand then bring it back to us.\u201d\n\nWhat does that communicate to a little girl?\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Oh, wow!\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u201cOur dads or uncles have it.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u201cOur cousins want it.\u201d When we found it and looked at it, my thought was, \u201cThis is what a man wants,\u201d\u2014\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u2014and \u201cThis is who I need to be.\u201d\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes; Joe has written a book called <i>More Than a Battle.<\/i> You describe your own battle with this issue; but you also talk about how God led you out of this and what you\u2019ve seen, as an ongoing pattern, for how guys can get free from this temptation.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> That\u2019s right. You know, part of it is actually trying to help us see that there are multiple lenses that we have to use when we think about this struggle. I tend to default to the battle imagery\u2014you know, \u201cput your sin to death,\u201d\u2014that sort of thing\u2014but there are also ways in which this is an addiction. There\u2019s a deep, bodily dimension to this struggle.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nYou know, there are sections in the book about the way that dopamine and endorphins, and all of these things, kind of get involved to, basically, take snapshots of those arousal moments. Your body is saying, \u201cThat felt good; I want it to happen again.\u201d We need to just stop here and say: \u201cThis is the wisdom of God that that happens; that\u2019s design. That snapshot of: \u2018Wow! That was a pleasant experience; I want that again,\u2019\u2014that\u2019s for marriage\u2014it\u2019s meant to bind a husband and a wife together in a one-flesh union. That\u2019s what that\u2019s for!\u201d\n\nThen sin; right? These companies and the devil are using that good gift and exploiting a weakness in it, which is, \u201cYou know, you could have that same bodily experience at some level with an image on a screen or with the fantasy in your mind.\u201d Recognizing the way that our bodies\u2014we can actually weapon-ize our bodies to where we make sin easy and real relationships hard.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nThere\u2019s a bodily dimension, and then there\u2019s this kind of\/I call it a \u201cbrokenness lens.\u201d There are ways in which other issues in our lives\/other areas of brokenness can actually be the driver of our sexual sin. I talk about: \u201cThere are sins that steal headlines, and then there are sins that <i>fund<\/i> newspapers,\u201d\u2014okay?\n\nLust is a headline stealer. When you fall into that, it\u2019s the one that you <i>feel<\/i>\u2014there\u2019s guilt; there\u2019s shame\u2014there\u2019s all of that that just carries on you. But playing in a back room some place in that theater is another sin: it might be anxiety; it might be desire for power; it might be anger at God. There are all kinds of other sins that are actually the issue, and this is the presenting symptom. Until you deal with these other backroom-type sins, you\u2019re never going to get free; because they\u2019re <i>fueling<\/i> the intensity of that desire.\n\nI\u2019m trying to take it and say, \u201cHey! We need to get a more wholistic view of this struggle. It\u2019s not just about the images; it\u2019s not just about sexual desire. It\u2019s really, really complex; and it takes wisdom to try to untangle.\u201d\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Is that why you\u2019ve titled your book <i>More Than a Battle<\/i>?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Exactly.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Is that where you\u2019re getting that?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> That\u2019s exactly right.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Because I think, for a lot of men\u2014and, again, I can\u2019t speak for women; but I know it\u2019s an issue\u2014it\u2019s easy to think, \u201cOh, come on, dude; there\u2019s nothing in the backroom. It\u2019s just that I want to look at a naked woman. I don\u2019t need to go in the backroom.\u201d Talk about that.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> What is fueling it that so many of us don\u2019t understand?\u2014but we <i>have to <\/i>get at the root.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Here\u2019s a good example: I think, that for many men, the actual pull to pornography is a deep desire for validation. When a man goes to pornography, you might think he\u2019s just interested in naked women; but part of what he\u2019s doing, in the fantasizing, is he\u2019s imagining himself in the scenario; and he\u2019s picturing himself as a strong, masculine man, capable of satisfying a woman.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nAgain, this is a good gift; this is that a husband and wife, in marriage, receive pleasure by giving pleasure. It\u2019s a mutually\/it\u2019s a glorious and beautiful thing. In the image, it\u2019s: \u201cI\u2019m creating a version of myself; and I\u2019m able to be a strong man.\u201d The real hunger there is often: \u201cI want to be perceived and seen as a strong man,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s the drug.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nSo then, you have to step back and have to go, \u201cWell, where is that supposed to be met?\u201d There\u2019s a good thing under there\u2014there\u2019s a desire to be a strong man\u2014it\u2019s a good desire. \u201cWhere did God intend for us to fulfill that desire?\u201d And then there are lots of answers to that question\u2014\u201cin marriage,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s one place; a wife respecting her husband\u2014\u201cwith other men\/like for other men to respect you and to view you.\u201d This is one of the things that I notice, in looking back at my own struggle. I notice that, if I thought other men were looking down on me\u2014like as a college student, if I wasn\u2019t doing well in the opinion polls\u2014[Laughter]\u2014you know, among 18- to 25-year-olds, my approval rating was down in my self-assessment; right?\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> In taking my Gallup poll, my approval rating\u2019s down, that made sexual sin really attractive for some reason. I never knew, at the time, what was going on; but there was a deep kind of spiritual, emotional, psychological thing happening, where\u2014because I was not having this sense of approval from this group\u2014that woman on the screen: \u201cShe thinks I\u2019m awesome!\u201d\u2014in the fantasy I\u2019m playing in my head.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nThen, you have to take it even deeper. Where\u2019s the fundamental approval supposed to come from?\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> It comes from God.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Right.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> He\u2019s our Father; this is what the gospel is for! \u201cI approve you: \u2018Well done!\u2019\u201d \u201cThis is My beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s what God said to Jesus\u2014and because we\u2019re in Jesus, that\u2019s what God says about us. The fundamental approval is <i>there<\/i>, but that\u2019s a weird thing to think: \u201cI\u2019m going to fight my sexual sin by reminding myself that God approves me.\u201d\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> If you don\u2019t get that that\u2019s what\u2019s really underneath, that won\u2019t make any sense; so we\u2019ve got to really untangle and do the heart work.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes; and I think the typical guy\u2014and I\u2019m being that guy; and again, I\u2019m not saying women don\u2019t think the same way\u2014it\u2019s like: \u201cYes, but to do it the real way is so <i>hard<\/i>.\u201d\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Porn is easy!\u2014you can look at it, and you feel all that stuff. I walk in my bedroom, and it\u2019s like, \u201cOhh, my wife wants me to <i>taaalk <\/i>[Laughter] about our relationship. I don\u2019t know if I should rub her shoulder or\u2026\u201d You know what I\u2019m saying?\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> I\u2019m having fun with it, but it <i>is <\/i>so much harder to be intimate\u2014real intimacy with my wife\u2014than it is to just get that superficial hit\u2014\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> I\u2019m finding\u2014\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> \u2014and with God, by the way, too.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u2014as we\u2019ve been doing marriage conferences for <i>Weekend to Remember<\/i><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> [getaways] for over 30 years, I\u2019ve noticed a trend in that, at the beginning, when we first started doing our conferences, I would have women come up to me and say, \u201cOh, my goodness! I don\u2019t know what to do. My husband is <i>always<\/i> wanting to have an intimate sexual relationship with me.\u201d Now, I\u2019m finding one of the bigger complaints is: \u201cMy husband has no desire for me.\u201d<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> And so, the question is: \u201cWhy?\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u201cAre they having their needs met?\u201d\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes\u2014\u201csomeplace else.\u201d<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes; I think you\u2019re right. For many men, a relationship with a real woman looks suspiciously like work\u2014[Laughter]\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> That\u2019s so depressing! [Laughter]\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> \u2014you know? And that\/when we talk about other sins that are feeding into this sin, the kind of laziness that says, \u201cMan, cultivating a real relationship with my wife takes effort!\u201d And it\u2019s not because we don\u2019t love our wives or anything like that. It\u2019s just the same way a wife cultivating a relationship with her husband: it takes effort. People are hard; imaginary people are way easier!\n\nC.S. Lewis described\u2014I quote this in the book\u2014it\u2019s a letter that he\u2019s writing to somebody, who asked him for advice about this issue. He talks about, you know, \u201cThe real sin in pornography is the creation of the imaginary harem.\u201d He says, you know, \u201cWe collect this imaginary harem with women who far outstrip; because they have all the qualities that we want, with none of the downside; and we are the perfect person in the scenario, who\u2019s perfectly able.\u201d He says that pornography, basically, becomes \u201ca mirror in which we can increasingly worship ourselves.\u201d<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> Wow!\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Whoa.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> It\u2019s a mirror for our distorted manhood. We\u2019re seeing our distorted glory reflected in the supposed satisfaction of the fantasy. It\u2019s really a self-worship that\u2019s happening in this thing. That\u2019s a deeper issue; and that\u2019s a different issue than simply: \u201cOh, guys like to look at naked women.\u201d It\u2019s more complicated than that.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes, it is really deep-centered\/rooted. I know that I\u2019ve often talked to men, also, about the fear of intimacy.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> It\u2019s sort of a superficial intimacy. Intimacy with your wife, or even being really a close friend with another guy, is <i>hard work. <\/i>It takes <i>courage<\/i> to open your soul and bare weakness, you know, with your wife and not know how she\u2019s going to respond.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Right.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> And something on a screen is <i>so easy<\/i>.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> But when I was reading your book, I was sort of struck\u2014because your struggle\/you talk about that, and we talk about that\u2014there\u2019s part of me, right now, that\u2019s like, \u201cOkay, let\u2019s get to the victory\u201d; you know?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> There\u2019s a turning in your life, where I was like, \u201cWhoa!\u201d You had a revelation\/an understanding that started you on a path toward, you know, you\u2019re writing about victory now. Talk about that; what changed?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Marriage was a big element of it. When I got engaged, it basically upped the stakes. I think that was a major thing that the Lord used to snap me awake of like: \u201cYou can\u2019t just muddle through here.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> \u201cThere\u2019s another person involved, whom you love. You <i>love<\/i> her! You don\u2019t want to hurt her.\u201d\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> Were you afraid?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Oh, of course! I was terrified. The kind of things we were talking about: \u201cI\u2019m going to have to confess something if I fall.\u201d I don\u2019t <i>ever <\/i>want to see that look on my wife\u2019s face; I don\u2019t <i>ever <\/i>want to have to have that conversation with her, ever again.\n\nNow, this actually produced certain kinds of distortions we can talk about, as well, in terms of the relationship; because a husband, who\u2019s dealing with this, can begin to treat his wife like God, and feel like, \u201cI\u2019m not forgiven until I\u2019ve been forgiven by her, and she\u2019s happy with me again,\u201d\u2014\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> \u2014as opposed to\u2014I mean, you need to confess to make it right with her; but your fundamental forgiveness: \u201cWho can forgive sins but God alone?\u2014He\u2019s the One who forgives sin!\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> When you do that\u2014and I know exactly what you\u2019re saying\u2014you lay that weight on <i>her<\/i>\u2014\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes!\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> \u2014like, \u201cYou to have to forgive me; and until you do, I\u2019m not good.\u201d Then it\u2019s like a weight she shouldn\u2019t have to bear.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Exactly; right. She can\u2019t be God to you, just like you can\u2019t be God to her.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> There\u2019s a way in which, sometimes, guys can get into a trap of unhealthy habits of confession, where I feel\/have a guilty conscience because of something I thought, or did, or whatever\u2014and then I need to vomit it on her\u2014then, \u201cBoy, I feel relief!\u201d because I just got it out; but now, she\u2019s covered in it.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> She\u2019s carrying it; it\u2019s not fair. It\u2019s another way that we\u2019re harming our wives in that way.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nA big shift for me was recognizing the value of other men, particularly older and wiser men, helping me. The pattern of confession that I\u2019ve cultivated, and commend to others, is: \u201cFirst, when you sin, you confess it to God\u2014no minced words; no euphemisms; no beating around the bush\u2014just: \u2018What did you do?\u2019 Confess sincerely, honestly, forthrightly confess to God. The Bible says: \u201cIf we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse up from all unrighteousness,\u201d\u2014period.\n\nFrom there, it\u2019s confessing it to other men. And the reason we\u2019re doing that is\u2014James says: \u201cConfess your sins one to another that you may be healed.\u201d The confession to the other men is for healing and, I would say, counsel. I\u2019m going to them, and I\u2019m saying: \u201cHey, here\u2019s what I did...\u201d \u201cHere\u2019s the temptation I faced\u2026\u201d \u201cHere\u2019s how, for two seconds, I clicked on something,\u201d\u2014or whatever it is\/whatever the thing is. Now, I\u2019m confessing it to them; and I\u2019m saying, \u201cNow, you help me. How should I talk to my wife about it? What should I say?\u201d Then I\u2019m running it by <i>them<\/i>.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nThe goal here\u2014this is where the wives\/this is really important for wives\u2014the guys you\u2019re doing that with, she needs to trust. She needs to know they\u2019re going to be as hard on you as God is. They\u2019re going to call you to live up to the standard that God wants you to live up to; because otherwise, she\u2019s going to feel like, \u201cI need to be involved here, because no one\u2019s going to care about your holiness more than me,\u201d which isn\u2019t true. God actually cares about your holiness more than she does, but the felt sense of fear and anger\u2014she wants to be involved.\n\nThere has to be a right ordering. She can be an ally, but only if she\u2019s your wife and not God; and not your main accountability partner in this struggle, because she won\u2019t understand: \u201cWhat do you mean? Like it was two seconds that woman walked by, and your eyes just went there? What\u2019s wrong with you?\u201d I say, \u201cWell, men and women are different: their temptations are different; the way we experience reality is different, and it\u2019s good.\u201d But she\u2019s not going to get it, so you want to be able to confess to other men.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nThis was a game-changer for me in having a wise, older counselor, who embodied what I call \u201cgospel presence.\u201d There are two elements to that gospel presence. On the one hand, there was a compassionate stability. What I mean is\u2014I could tell him anything, and he was going to lean in. It didn\u2019t matter what came out of my mouth, he was going to lean in and say, \u201cHey, I just want you to know, I\u2019m for you. I\u2019m for you! I\u2019m with you. I\u2019m not running away.\u201d\n\nBecause the fear\u2014right? \u2014is: \u201cIf I say this out loud, he\u2019s going to go, \u2018Whoa!\u2019 and freak out, and I\u2019m going to be confirmed in: \u2018I am the worst sinner, and nobody else has been as bad as me.\u2019\u201d But instead, he goes, \u201cAlright; I heard it. We\u2019re going to deal with that. I\u2019m with you.\u201d That was <i>massive<\/i> in terms of like, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m safe here.\u201d Gospel presence made it safe for sinners.\n\nBut the second part was focused hostility\u2014it\u2019s not safe for sin\u2014\u201cNow, we\u2019ve got to go to work.\u201d It\u2019s not just, \u201cWe\u2019re going to get together. You\u2019re going to vent; and I\u2019m going to say, \u2018It\u2019s okay; God loves you anyway,\u2019 and \u2018I\u2019ll see you later.\u2019\u201d It was: \u201cOkay; now, what kind of things are we going to do, going forward? What kind of wise strategies are we going to put in place, out of this gospel reality that I love you and am communicating the love of God to you? Out of that, what are we going to do different tomorrow so that we\u2019re not back here again?\u201d\n\nIt was that combination of compassionate stability and focused hostility that was a <i>massive<\/i> game-changer for me in the struggle.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> How did you find this friend? Because a lot of wives would be saying, \u201cMy husband has no men like that.\u201d\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> He was a college pastor at Texas A&amp;M. I got to know him; he did our pre-marital counseling and was massively helpful, both in terms of my own personal, and then in helping us to work together. When we moved up here, right after we got married, I would still call him and say, \u201cHey, there\u2019s fall out from the struggles\/the confession that happened during engagement; and it\u2019s still kind of lingering. Help me.\u201d\n\nHe helped work through some of those things\u2014the relational complications that come\u2014this is a major focus of the book. When I wrote this, the idea was: \u201cI want to write a book that guys, who struggle, and guys, who want to help guys who struggle, can read together and then talk about.\u201d\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Let me ask you this: \u201cDo you think it can be a dad with his son?\u201d\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes!<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes; I mean, I haven\u2019t gotten there yet\u2014I\u2019ve got an 11-year-old and a 9-year-old\u2014we\u2019ve begun those conversations. It\u2019s not just a \u201ctalk\u201d; it\u2019s the \u201ctalks\u201d\u2014plural.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> Give us an example; what does that sound like?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> With my 11-year-old, this was probably about a year ago or so, I got some resources that kind of walked through just the birds-and-the-bees type stuff; right? One day, my wife took the other kids and went off. It was just me and him; and I said, \u201cHey, you want to talk?\u201d We pulled out the book, and I just kind of walked through it with him and answered some questions.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nAfter a little bit, he was kind of like, \u201cOkay; that\u2019s how it works. Okay, okay.\u201d Then, afterwards, he was like, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m done talking about this now.\u201d [Laughter] It was clear, he was like, \u201cI\u2019m done.\u201d Now, it\u2019s going to be like: \u201cWe need to revisit that,\u201d or as things come up. It\u2019s never going to be like, \u201cOkay, I\u2019ve checked that box.\u201d It\u2019s the <i>beginning<\/i> of a conversation in which, as new things arise: so we talk about modesty; we talk about things like that; we talk about \u201cwise eyes\u201d when we\u2019re watching TV and a commercial comes on\u2014I\u2019ll say to our boys, \u201cHey, wise eyes!\u201d\u2014that means their eyes go down, and my eyes go down.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> I want to show them, \u201cIt\u2019s not that is okay for Dad to watch whatever that is, but it\u2019s not for you.\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cNo; <i>none<\/i> of us need to see whatever that was.\u201d \u201cWise eyes look down\u201d; okay? That means they know: \u201cHey, Dad\/we\u2019re the same in this; he\u2019s in the struggle with us.\u201d\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Right.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> I\u2019m hoping that that means, when the time comes\u2014you know, in the next couple of years, when it becomes more acute\u2014that there\u2019s an openness and a transparency that they\u2019ll feel like they can talk to me; and I can then tell them the same thing you guys were talking about earlier: \u201cHere\u2019s the story\u2026\u201d<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> I think there are a lot of dads listening who are afraid to take that step with their son, whether they\u2019re ten, or fifteen, or eighteen; because they\u2019re not winning.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> You know, they\u2019re in the middle of the struggle; they\u2019re not winning. Maybe they\u2019re hiding.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> And they\u2019re like, \u201cI don\u2019t have\u2014I haven\u2019t won,\u201d and \u201cI\u2019m not winning; I\u2019m not making the right choices, so I don\u2019t go there.\u201d\n\nI would just say this: \u201cToday\u2019s your day.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> \u201cStart the step toward freedom. It\u2019s real! Joe\u2019s experienced it; I\u2019ve experienced it; Bob\u2019s experienced it.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> \u201cI know the battle, but I also know victory. It can <i>happen<\/i>.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> \u201cBut you\u2019ve got to take a step to tell somebody. Get the book!\u2014be the first step.\u201d\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> And let me ask this real quick, too: \u201cA single mom\u2014\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u2014\u201cor a wife, who has a husband, who will not enter into this conversation,\u2014\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u2014\u201cshould we, as women, enter into that?\u201d\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> \u2014with a son?\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u2014with a son.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> I would probably say that\u2019s where you\u2019re going to want to get a pastor involved.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u2014which could be kind of weird and creepy if they don\u2019t know him.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> What it mean is\u2014it\u2019s got to be about community. This is where your family needs to be embedded in a church, where you have\/where there\u2019s that overlap. If it\u2019s a single mom, you know, there are all kinds of reasons you want your son to be around other godly men. You\u2019re going to be working together on: \u201cHey, he\u2019s missing something that he needs. One of those things is how to help him with this struggle.\u201d\n\nI think that, for most boys, talking to mom about this is going to make things <i>harder<\/i>.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u2014and weird.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> \u2014and weirder.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> Yes.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> The more that it can be mentors and pastors, and people like that, who are helping them and providing that. That was true for me\u2014my dad could have talked about it, I think, but didn\u2019t\u2014so I found other mentors: youth pastors\/guys like that, who were helpful.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Here\u2019s what\u2019s critical: don\u2019t just think, \u201cI\u2019ll get a copy of Joe\u2019s book and put it on my son\u2019s bed,\u201d or \u201cI\u2019ll get a copy and read it, and hopefully it will help.\u201d What you\u2019re saying here is: \u201cIt takes more than just information. It takes guys and accountability.\u201d Our hope is that a lot of guys will go through this book with other guys: fathers and sons; men going through this with other guys from church.\n\nWe\u2019re making Joe\u2019s book available this week to <i>FamilyLife Today <\/i>listeners. Any of you who\u2019d like a copy, you can go online, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to request your copy. We\u2019re asking that you would make a donation to support the ongoing work of this ministry, and we\u2019ll send you Joe\u2019s book as a thank-you gift. We really want to see men engaging with other men around this subject. Again, we\u2019d love to send you a copy of Joe\u2019s book as a way of saying, \u201cThank you for your support of the work of <i>FamilyLife Today.<\/i>\u201d<i><span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span><\/i>\n\nWe are listener-supported; you are the people who make today\u2019s program possible. If you\u2019ve never made a donation, somebody made today\u2019s program possible for <i>you<\/i>. You can pay it forward for somebody else; go to FamilyLifeToday.com to donate, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. Again, ask for your copy of the book, <i>More Than a Battle, <\/i>by Joe Rigney when you get in touch with us. We look forward to sending you a copy; and thanks, in advance, for your support of the ministry.\n\nNow, tomorrow, we want to talk about why we have such a distorted view of what God\u2019s good gift of marital intimacy is supposed to look like. We\u2019ll continue our conversation about how we defeat lust in our lives\/how we gain victory over pornography. Joe Rigney\u2019s going to be back with us tomorrow. I hope you can be back as well.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll see you back tomorrow for another edition of <i>FamilyLife Today<\/i>.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\n<i>FamilyLife Today<\/i> is a production of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> of Little Rock, Arkansas;<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\na Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs? <span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span>\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2021 FamilyLife. 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