{"id":306705,"date":"2021-02-01T07:00:04","date_gmt":"2021-02-01T12:00:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/hope-in-the-battle\/"},"modified":"2021-02-01T07:00:04","modified_gmt":"2021-02-01T12:00:04","slug":"hope-in-the-battle","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/hope-in-the-battle\/","title":{"rendered":"Hope in the Battle"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Have you or someone you love been swept up in the influence of pornography? Join FamilyLife Today hosts Dave and Ann Wilson as they talk with Dr. Joe Rigney, author of More Than a Battle, about how to find healing. He explains that pornography re-wires God-given parts of our brains meant to draw us to our mate. Dr. Rigney talks about unmasking the devil\u2019s schemes and finding freedom. He outlines a strategy for the battles to overcome the enemy and walk in victory.<br \/>\nShow Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tDownload FamilyLife&#8217;s new app! https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/<br \/>\n \tFind resources from this podcast at https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130.<br \/>\n \tCheck out all that&#8217;s available on the FamilyLife Podcast Network.\u00a0 https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Have you or someone you love been swept up in the influence of pornography? Join Dave and Ann Wilson as they talk with Dr. Joe Rigney, author of &#8220;More Than a Battle,&#8221; about how to find healing.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-02-01.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:24:45","filesize":"22.67M","filesize_raw":"23766850","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2844],"tags":[2872,6970,2989],"podcast_series":[8426],"cwp_profile":[9689],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-306705","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-pornography","tag-addiction","tag-life-issues","tag-pornography","podcast_series-more-than-a-battle","cwp_profile-joe-rigney","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/306705\/hope-in-the-battle","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/306705\/hope-in-the-battle","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"t1TMOvCzL2\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/hope-in-the-battle\/\">Hope in the Battle<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/hope-in-the-battle\/embed\/#?secret=t1TMOvCzL2\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Hope in the Battle&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"t1TMOvCzL2\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2021-02-01.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2021-02-01.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<b>Bob: <\/b>Lust is nothing new; it\u2019s been around for a long time. For that matter, so has pornography. But as author, Joe Rigney, says, the fact that pornography can be engaged with anonymity today, that\u2019s something new.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Everybody has this unprecedented access <i>and<\/i> anonymity. You don\u2019t have to keep your eyes down at a store clerk you\u2019re buying the magazine from. It\u2019s that unprecedented access and the anonymity that it brings that takes this to a different level. Then, you add to that, that there are corporations and people whose entire vocation is devoted to hooking you.\n\n<b>Bob: <\/b>This is <i>FamilyLife Today<\/i> for Monday, February 1st. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. Is there a strategy that is successful for dealing with the issue of pornography? We\u2019ll talk with Joe Rigney about that today. Stay with us.\n\n<b>Bob: <\/b>And welcome to <i>FamilyLife Today<\/i>. Thanks for joining us. Most of us have not spent a lot of time talking about global pandemics until recently when one was in the news. I think there\u2019s a global pandemic that\u2019s been around for long before anyone heard about COVID-19. You\u2019ve seen this in pastoral ministry; you\u2019ve seen this as you\u2019ve worked with athletes through the years.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> I\u2019m guessing you\u2019re talking about pornography?\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes; I\u2019m talking about the issue of lust and how that plays in and what\u2019s going on with guys\u2014and with women, who are finding themselves engaged in, not looking at images as much\u2014but women who are caught up in sexual fantasies.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> I think women are caught up in looking at images now too. I agree, Bob; I think this is something that\u2019s even going to become worse because of our access to the internet and the things that are going on. I think our marriages are really going to be hit.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> I do know that, as a father, I remember having this thought when I had three sons\u2014my oldest is 34?\u2014I remember having the thought, when he was just a little guy\u2014\u201cI wonder what it will be like <i>if<\/i> he\u2019s ever exposed to pornography?\u201d Then the thought hit me: \u201cIt\u2019s not an \u2018if\u2019 question; it\u2019s a \u2018when\u2019 question in the world we live in.\u201d\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> We\u2019re going to talk about how we deal with the pandemic and how we help our kids through this. Dr. Joe Rigney is here with us today to help us talk about this. Joe, welcome.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Thanks for having me. I\u2019m glad to be here.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Joe is a pastor in Minnesota, pastors City Church. He\u2019s also an assistant professor of theology and literature at Bethlehem College and Seminary. He has written a book on this subject called <i>More Than a Battle.<\/i> You experienced this battle personally during adolescence; right?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Absolutely. This was sadly part of my story, as you were talking about your kids, growing up. I grew up in the \u201890s, so it was a very different struggle in some ways then. I can\u2019t imagine doing it now. It was very sad; I grieve that it\u2019s part of my story, but it is. There\u2019s things that happen in that adolescence\u2014junior high, high school, up through college\u2014that can really shape you and then set trajectories over time. It\u2019s a deep work of grace to have some of those ways you\u2019ve been formed to be reformed\/to be undone.\n\nI\u2019m grateful that God has done that in my life over the last 15 years; and I can be on this side of it, looking back. But being on this side of it\u2014by \u201cit,\u201d I mean, not that sexual temptation isn\u2019t an issue at all, that won\u2019t happen until glory\u2014but at least, now, there\u2019s been substantial measures of victory, and healing, and wholeness in relation to this struggle. This has been a deeply personal one in my life; therefore, I want to look back and say, \u201cI want to spare as many people as possible from having to walk through the sorts of stuff that I had to deal with in high school and college.\u201d\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> Joe, I\u2019m wondering, \u201cWhat do you think the percentages are of men that struggle?\u201d\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> I would guess like 99 or 100 percent. I actually think there was study\u2014\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> That\u2019s depressing.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> It\u2019s <i>so<\/i> depressing. There\u2019s a story\u2014I picked it up along the way, doing some research\u2014where somebody was going to try to study the effects of sort of the introduction of pornography to men. Psychologists put out a call: \u201cIf you\u2019ve never looked at pornography, would you show up? We\u2019ll pay you\u201d\u2014however much money\u2014\u201cto be part of this study.\u201d And they couldn\u2019t get anybody.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> Nobody showed up.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Nobody showed up; nobody fit that bill and could do it. Obviously, it\u2019s an anecdote. But I think the reality on the ground is that this is universal for men and very prevalent\u2014as you were saying\u2014for women more and more. It\u2019s not just that everybody deals with it; it\u2019s that substantial numbers of people are neck deep and losing in it. That\u2019s the greater tragedy.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> It\u2019s a different day\u2014when you said\/Joe, you were talking about the \u201890s\u2014I don\u2019t know exactly when the digital world hit us. Back then, when I was a child\u2014not the \u201890s; a little earlier\u2014you had to go <i>look<\/i> for it: you had to go get a magazine; you had to go buy it or fall into it at your buddy\u2019s house.\n\nToday\u2014walk us back\u2014take us back to the struggle that initiated in your own life. How did it start, and how did it progress?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> For me, it was that sort of thing\u2014kids bringing a <i>Playboy<\/i> to school in junior high\u2014and everybody sitting around the magazine, wide-eyed; right? Looking back, that was me. You can kind of distance from it as an adult; but man, there was some innocence that was lost in that moment and in the fascination that led to being over at a friends\u2019 house, like you\u2019re saying: late night HBO\u2014or something like that\u2014it was those sort of things; right? Like you said, you do have to go look for it. You had to get the magazines and avoid eye contact with anyone you\u2019re buying it from. Then, fast forward, you get to the digital age; the internet comes along; that was an issue more for me in college.\n\nThen, today\u2014sexual sin\/sexual temptation is as old as dirt\u2014this is not a new struggle. Paul had to deal with pagan prostitutes, and temple prostitutes, and stuff like that. Victorians had their brothels. But we have brothels in our pocket; that\u2019s the new thing. Everybody has this unprecedented access <i>and<\/i> anonymity\u2014you don\u2019t have to keep your eyes down at a store clerk that you\u2019re buying the magazine from. It\u2019s that unprecedented access and the anonymity that it brings that takes it to a different level. Then, you add to that, that there are corporations and people whose <i>entire vocation<\/i> is devoted to hooking you. The swiping and all that stuff is designed to hook you\u2014not just on your social media\/your Facebook\u00ae and Twitter\u00ae and everything else\u2014but to this. There\u2019s people\/there\u2019s human beings devoting concerted effort.\n\nThen, we have to imagine\u2014right?\u2014that there are dark powers behind those human powers that are also orchestrating. There\u2019s a big array of forces that are trying to destroy individuals, families, churches around this issue. I\u2019ve felt, in my ministry primarily to college students over the last 15 years, I see it; and I want to help. It\u2019s possible\u2014I think that\u2019s the thing that was\/this would be a big difference between college me and 38-year-old me\u2014and really, 25\/26.\n\nOnce it happened, it was like, \u201cOh, I had no idea this was even possible.\u201d I couldn\u2019t imagine that you could be <i>free<\/i>. My imagination was so stunted. There\u2019s a text in the Bible in Romans 8\u2014Paul says, \u201cWe are debtors, not to the flesh to live according to the flesh.\u201d I remember feeling, \u201cThat\u2019s exactly what it feels like. It feels like I\u2019m a debtor to the flesh. It feels like sin shows up\/flesh shows up and says, \u2018You have to pay up now, and there\u2019s nothing you can do about it. You\u2019re a slave, so come on.\u2019\u201d When you\u2019re trapped there; and you have no horizon to get a different kind of air\u2014part of this whole project is\u2014I want to introduce men\/mainly, men\u2014but I think it could apply to women as well\u2014\u201cThere\u2019s a different air to breathe.\u201d\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> The idea that there might be freedom\/there might be victory seems elusive for so many guys. I\u2019ve had the experience of getting an email that I thought was one thing\u2014clicking on the link in the email, and go, \u201cOh!\u201d\u2014and having to hide the screen and click out of there as quick as I can. It seeks <i>you<\/i> out, instead of you having to seek it out.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> The crazy thing is, in some ways\u2014again, I don\u2019t, Bob, know exactly what you\u2019re talking about\u2014but the images that you may click on\/again, you stumble into, compared to 20\/30 years ago\u2014it may have been more like a lingerie ad\u2014<i>now<\/i>, it\u2019s <i>degrading<\/i>. You\u2019re thinking of ten-year-olds, and eight-year-olds, and thirteen-year-olds, that\u2019s an image they see. They should never see that\u2014\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> \u2014ever.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> \u2014none of us should ever see that <i>any<\/i> minute in our life.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Did your dad ever have a conversation with you to prepare you for what might be there?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Not really. Once it was ongoing, there was an attempt I think, if I remember right. But there wasn\u2019t really. I had other mentors at church and things like that. I was a little awkward with my dad, I guess. He was a Christian, and I am grateful for all of the good things he did; but this was an area, where I don\u2019t think he quite knew what to do.\n\nI had mentors at church. One of the things that I learned\u2014at some point, we formed some accountability groups\u2014peer level\/so high school guys. Now, hindsight, looking back, those were just big puddles of sin. I don\u2019t know that those were actually all that helpful. I think there was something good in it: we wanted to\/we knew this was wrong; we knew we didn\u2019t want to be addicted to pornography; we didn\u2019t want to be doing this; but we were all <i>in<\/i> it. We\u2019re coming to confess sin; it was like, \u201cWell, now what do we do?\u201d Nobody knew how to get out; everybody was in the same boat.\n\nAnother element of this is\u2014my project has been recognizing the importance of mentors\u2014godly men, who are a step removed\/who have had substantial victory in this area and can, therefore, provide that model and that hopefulness: \u201cHey, you can come to where I\u2019m at. You don\u2019t have to stay in the pit; you can get out by the grace of God.\u201d\n\nThat was a <i>major<\/i> thing for me in college. I had a college pastor, who I didn\u2019t realize all of the good he was doing to me in counseling me through this struggle. In hindsight, I\u2019m like, \u201cThere was so much wisdom.\u201d I had the Bible verses; I\u2019d had those memorized; I\u2019d read books. It was his presence that connected the Scriptures and my life in such a way that there was actual transformation. That\u2019s a major element of what I\u2019m trying to encourage, is communities of men, where you have guys\u2014who have had victory, and healing, and restoration in this area\u2014who are trying to help walk with men, who are still in the pit and help them get out.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> I think, as I listen to you\u2014and obviously, it\u2019s in your book\u2014the value and the importance of a man being in community cannot be overstated.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes; correct.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Again, I\u2019m not saying women\u2014it isn\u2019t a struggle for them\u2014same thing. But, man oh man, what you just said requires you initiating, finding a mentor\/you initiating, finding men, and having the courage to be that real.\n\nI think we hide. I would just say this: \u201cIf you\u2019re a man, alone with this battle, you\u2019re going down; it\u2019s <i>not<\/i> winnable without other men in your life\u201d; right?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Hidden sins kill Christians because they\u2019re hidden.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes; and I\u2019ve never heard the mentor part; that\u2019s a different angle. I\u2019ve heard, \u201cWe need accountability\u201d; and in some ways, I think guys gave up\u2014because they went in there, like you said\u2014\u201cWe shared our sin; we kept sinning.\u201d That needs to be a unique group of men, but the mentor is critical; isn\u2019t it? I\u2019ve never heard that\u2014\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> It is.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u2014to have an older man.\n\n<b>Joe: <\/b>\u2014an older man. And sometimes, it may not be older. It\u2019s mainly someone who, on this issue, has achieved, by the grace of God, substantial victory so that they can provide hopefulness. They can look at you and say, \u201cYou\u2019re not going to be here forever. It may take time. There are some things that have to get rewired, because you\u2019ve conditioned yourself by your habits that you formed while you were in junior high and high school. It\u2019s going to take time; it\u2019s a long war\/a long war. You\u2019ve got to think long-term here, but you can get here. \u201c\n\nPart of the audience here is\u2014I\u2019m a pastor\u2014I want to have something I can hand to the guys in my church that are doing it\/that are living it and say, \u201cHey; you guys have this; now go find the guys who are struggling.\u201d It\u2019s not just that the guys, who are struggling, have to initiate.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> That\u2019s good.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> I want churches to be able to be the sort of place, where it\u2019s like: \u201cIt\u2019s <i>obvious<\/i> where you go. There\u2019s a group of men, and we know those guys, they know how to pastor guys through this struggle. They\u2019ve seen fruitfulness, and they\u2019ve seen hopefulness.\u201d Guys go, \u201cThat\u2019s where I\u2019m going to go\u201d; there\u2019s no question of who has to initiate.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> For wives to read that, and to have older women that are helping them also say, \u201cThere is hope for your husband and for your marriage.\u201d That\u2019s big.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> That is so big.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> Go back and talk to us about being in this pit, and these other guys being in this pit. What did that do to your spiritual walk with God?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> It\u2019s interesting. It was like a ping pong match; it was a ping pong match, honestly, between lust and pride. Basically, my spiritual walk\u2014the measuring stick became whether or not I had looked at pornography recently\u2014if I hadn\u2019t, I felt pretty good about myself and kind of got a little swagger; I\u2019d be feeling pretty confident. It hadn\u2019t been all of that long, honestly; but I felt good about myself.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> Did you feel like, \u201cI\u2019ve kicked it!\u201d?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes; there was a sense of, \u201cOkay; I\u2019m good; I\u2019m good.\u201d Then, all of a sudden, here it would come again, and then I\u2019d fall. Then it would be this hopelessness\/this despair\u2014that\u2019s the way it pulls you in\u2014there\u2019s an allurement; and the moment you\u2019re over the cliff, it\u2019s accusation\/they\u2019re just on you: \u201cYou\u2019re a failure.\u201d\n\nPart of what I talked about in the book is the \u201cbinge trap,\u201d which is, basically, the mentality that says, after you\u2019ve failed: \u201cI already blew it. I might as well blow it <i>a lot.<\/i> I might as well go whole hog, because I\u2019m already down here.\u201d\n\nIt\u2019s interesting\u2014after writing the book\u2014in our church, I\u2019ve got some folks I\u2019m working with on different areas, like on anxiety. I said, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you read this?\u201d I gave them the draft of the manuscript: \u201cI know this is talking about sexual sin, but sin is sin. Sin is sin; see if reading this helps.\u201d It actually did. There\u2019s ways in which the temptation operate on us, and the patterns we get into are very similar.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> I thought I picked up a little John Owen, <i>Mortification of the Flesh<\/i>, as I was reading through your manuscript.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Absolutely; you did.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> It\u2019s interesting\u2014you\u2019re talking about sort of the cycle. I remember\u2014and I\u2019m sure we\u2019re all Bible scholars sitting around here\u2014we\u2019re familiar with James 1:13 where he talks about the <i>pattern<\/i> of sin. James says, \u201cWhen tempted, no one should say God is tempting me, for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.\u201d By the way, you ever done that?\u2014blame God?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Absolutely.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> [Laughter] I have. But he[James] says, \u201cEach person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin. And sin, when it is full grown, gives birth to death.\u201d\n\nJoe, you were talking about the feeling of being powerless. I\u2019ve shared before one of my first journeys into that powerless world was on a Detroit Lions\u2019 trip\u2014actually, my first ever trip as a chaplain of the Detroit Lions\u2014Seattle Seahawks, preseason game. They put me in a hotel room in a nice hotel all by myself. Only a few listeners will remember these days\u2014that was when they had a little box on your TV, where you could order a movie\u2014there were six movies. I remember standing in front of the TV, looking at this box\/looking at the thing; three of them were Hollywood movies; three were porn.\n\nAs I looked at the thing\u2014I\u2019ll never forget\u2014I looked down. I\u2019m married; you know, I\u2019ve got kids at home. I look at this little paragraph that says, \u201cThis will not be added to your room bill until after five minutes.\u201d Obviously, that\u2019s changed, but that\u2019s how it was. The thought in my head is like, \u201cI could watch something for four minutes and fifty-nine seconds, and nobody will know.\u201d I thought, \u201cI\u2019ll never do this\u201d; and I clicked. Just standing there, looking at the TV, I clicked on one of those bad channels for probably ten seconds and turned it off. That ten seconds [snaps fingers] changed my life. It\u2019s like you swim into this pit you\u2019re talking about. The next time I walked in the hotel room, on the next road trip, it was this <i>power<\/i> drawing me there\u2014we\u2019re talking ten seconds!\u2014then, I had a secret. I\u2019d come home; I had to do chapel for the team. Just what you\u2019re saying, Joe, you\u2019re living this sort of lie.\n\nYou think about what James said; it\u2019s like you\u2019re drawn and dragged in. An interesting thing about the passage, I\u2019m sure you know, is it\u2019s a fishing term; so the pattern to lose looks like this\u2014there\u2019s bait; right? He says you have an evil desire; there\u2019s burn. I\u2019m a pastor, so we\u2019re going to do a little alliteration; right? Think about this: you\u2019ve got bait; you desire it, so there\u2019s this burn.\n\nHere\u2019s the choice\u2014you either bite, and you end up bait; he says you die, not physically. The other option was\u2014talk about this, because this is where we\u2019ve got to go\u2014if you win, what\u2019s the pattern? Talk about it! What is the pattern?\u2014because I think some people think, \u201cYou\u2019ll never have this desire again; it\u2019ll just go away.\u201d There\u2019s people that live with this utopia, like, \u201cThey don\u2019t have the desire I have; so I can\u2019t beat it, because they\u2019re different.\u201d I think the pattern\u2019s similar; right? There\u2019s still bait\u2014of course, that\u2019s up to you; you can eliminate that in some ways\u2014but there\u2019s still going to be desire there. But you have to make it a choice; you can bite or you can\u2014\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> \u2014walk away.\n\nI think two things there: one is that the image\/you have the fishing metaphor in the text; then you\u2019ve also got this pregnancy metaphor\u2014desire is <i>conceived<\/i>, sin is <i>conceived<\/i>, and then it gives <i>birth<\/i> to death\u2014that\u2019s the language. In some ways, what you were trying to do in that hotel room was be a little bit pregnant.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes; yes. [Laughter]\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> That\u2019s, oftentimes, how we approach this. We want to be a little bit pregnant: \u201cI want to get as close to that line as I can but try not to fall over.\u201d Honestly, for a lot of guys, it\u2019s the full going from pornography up to orgasm: \u201cI can dabble up until then, and I can swim in it; but if I don\u2019t go over <i>that<\/i> cliff, then I\u2019ve had some measure of victory,\u201d\u2014which is a lie\u2014it\u2019s you\u2019re moving closer and closer to the line; and eventually, you\u2019re going to get pulled in.\n\nThe flip side is: \u201cSuccess breeds success.\u201d There\u2019s a way in which you see the grace of God land so where you can actually feel the pull\/feel that temptation, and then walk away; you go, \u201cOh, there\u2019s something different.\u201d One of the things I talk about here is in Galatians, Chapter 5: Paul says that self-control is a fruit of the Spirit. There is a way in which God\/what is God doing for us in our sanctification?\u2014He\u2019s restoring control of you to you; so that you tell your eyes where to look; you tell your hand what to touch\/what to click on. You\u2019re in control of you\u2014because why?\u2014 the Spirit of God is at work in your life.\n\nThere\u2019s a way in which, when we are faced with temptation, and we\u2019re able, by the grace of God, to flee\u2014the biblical language would be \u201crun away\u201d; right?\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes; I use the word, \u201cbolt.\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<b>Joe: <\/b>Bolt.\n\n<b>Dave: <\/b>That\u2019s right; bolt instead of\u2014\n\n<b>Joe: <\/b>You are a pastor\u2014[Laughter]\n\n<b>Dave: <\/b>I mean, bolt is like\u2014\n\n<b>Joe: <\/b>\u2014probably a Baptist; right? [Laughter]\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> It\u2019s got all B\u2019s; it\u2019s good.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes, you\u2019re going to bolt\u2014you\u2019re going to run\u2014you\u2019re going to flee. Then, when you\u2019re running away, you\u2019re going, \u201cI\u2019m real! The Spirit of God is at work in my life!\u201d That\u2019s emboldening. There\u2019s times, even to this day, where I can kind of feel that there\u2019s a greater degree of pull\u2014that wrong\/that sinful curiosity\u2014I will look for opportunities to win. I\u2019ll know I\u2019m going to Target, and you can\u2019t walk through\u2014I mean, you\u2019re talking about it comes looking for you\u2014you\u2019re walking through Target; I just want to get some milk. [Laughter] It\u2019s like, \u201cWhat is going to be all over the billboards\/what\u2019s going to be all over, high up, where everybody can see it?\u201d\u2014is going to be the lingerie ads, and all this kind of stuff, or the magazine rack, or whatever. It\u2019s like, \u201cI know that\u2019s coming; I tell my eyes where to look.\u201d <i>I<\/i> tell my eyes where to look, because God is taking control of me; and therefore, He\u2019s restored control of me to me. I\u2019m going to get a small victory here as I walk out the door. I\u2019m going to thank God as I walk out the door.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> I have to say, guys, this topic breeds fear into so many women. As I listen, I\u2019m thinking of the moms, the grandmothers, the wives that are listening, thinking, \u201cWe don\u2019t know what to do. We don\u2019t know how to battle this with our husbands or for our kids.\u201d\n\nI\u2019m glad we\u2019re having this conversation, because we need help.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> I do think this is where a wife can come along, and instead of saying, \u201cI\u2019m going to be afraid that you\u2019re going to fall, or that this is going to be an issue for you,\u201d she can come along and say, \u201cI want to be your ally in the battle here. I may not be able to understand what\u2019s actually going on in your thinking, but I do know that this is real for you; I know this is a challenge for guys.\u201d\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> I think for us, as women, to enter into the battle with our men, and our daughters, is really important.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> I remember when I told Ann\u2014we\u2019re talking 40 years ago?\u2014\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> I was battling <i>against<\/i> him.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes; right. It was one of the scariest moments of my life to admit. Then, when I did, I wanted, Bob\/I wanted her to be my ally; but she had to process anger first, which I didn\u2019t really expect.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u2014and fear and pain.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> I got mad at her for being mad at me. She thought, \u201cThis is all about me. I\u2019m not enough.\u201d Every one of us is going, \u201cNo; it has nothing to do with you, honey.\u201d But a woman doesn\u2019t understand that; right? She\u2019s like, \u201cIf I was adequate, you wouldn\u2019t have to\u2026\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cNo\u2026\u201d The journey, though\u2014we got through it\u2014she got to a place, where the anger\u2014not in a day or a week\u2014but now, you\u2019re my ally; it\u2019s a beautiful thing.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> And your book is here to help husbands and wives recognize, not only what is going on, but that there is a way to deal with the issue of lust and pornography. Joe\u2019s book is called <i>More Than a Battle: How to Experience Victory, Freedom, and Healing from Lust.<\/i> We think this book is so important we\u2019re making it available to anybody who can make a donation to help support the ministry of <i>FamilyLife Today.<\/i> When you invest in FamilyLife\u00ae, what you\u2019re doing is helping more people, more regularly, be able to receive practical biblical help and hope for their marriage and their family. That\u2019s a part of our mission\u2014to effectively develop godly marriages and families.\n\nWhen you support that mission, you extend the reach of <i>FamilyLife Today.<\/i> We want to say, \u201cThank you for your support,\u201d by sending you a copy of Joe Rigney\u2019s book, <i>More Than a Battle<\/i>. Go online to FamilyLifeToday.com to make a donation, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. Ask for your copy of the book, <i>More Than a Battle: How to Experience Victory, Freedom, and Healing from Lust<\/i> by Joe Rigney. Again, donate online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. We look forward to hearing from you.\n\nTomorrow, we\u2019re going to continue our conversation with Joe Rigney, talking about what\u2019s really going on in a man\u2019s heart when he finds himself being drawn toward lust\/toward pornography. Joe will be back with us, again, tomorrow. I hope you can be back with us as well.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <i>FamilyLife Today<\/i>.\n\n<i>FamilyLife Today<\/i> is a production of FamilyLife\u00ae of Little Rock, Arkansas;\n\na Cru\u00ae Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<hr \/>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright \u00a9 2021 FamilyLife. 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you or someone you love been swept up in the influence of pornography? Join Dave and Ann Wilson as they talk with Dr. Joe Rigney, author of \"More Than a Battle,\" about how to find healing.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2021-02-01.pdf","transcript_content":"<b>Bob: <\/b>Lust is nothing new; it\u2019s been around for a long time. For that matter, so has pornography. But as author, Joe Rigney, says, the fact that pornography can be engaged with anonymity today, that\u2019s something new.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Everybody has this unprecedented access <i>and<\/i> anonymity. You don\u2019t have to keep your eyes down at a store clerk you\u2019re buying the magazine from. It\u2019s that unprecedented access and the anonymity that it brings that takes this to a different level. Then, you add to that, that there are corporations and people whose entire vocation is devoted to hooking you.\n\n<b>Bob: <\/b>This is <i>FamilyLife Today<\/i> for Monday, February 1st. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. Is there a strategy that is successful for dealing with the issue of pornography? We\u2019ll talk with Joe Rigney about that today. Stay with us.\n\n<b>Bob: <\/b>And welcome to <i>FamilyLife Today<\/i>. Thanks for joining us. Most of us have not spent a lot of time talking about global pandemics until recently when one was in the news. I think there\u2019s a global pandemic that\u2019s been around for long before anyone heard about COVID-19. You\u2019ve seen this in pastoral ministry; you\u2019ve seen this as you\u2019ve worked with athletes through the years.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> I\u2019m guessing you\u2019re talking about pornography?\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Yes; I\u2019m talking about the issue of lust and how that plays in and what\u2019s going on with guys\u2014and with women, who are finding themselves engaged in, not looking at images as much\u2014but women who are caught up in sexual fantasies.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> I think women are caught up in looking at images now too. I agree, Bob; I think this is something that\u2019s even going to become worse because of our access to the internet and the things that are going on. I think our marriages are really going to be hit.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> I do know that, as a father, I remember having this thought when I had three sons\u2014my oldest is 34?\u2014I remember having the thought, when he was just a little guy\u2014\u201cI wonder what it will be like <i>if<\/i> he\u2019s ever exposed to pornography?\u201d Then the thought hit me: \u201cIt\u2019s not an \u2018if\u2019 question; it\u2019s a \u2018when\u2019 question in the world we live in.\u201d\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> We\u2019re going to talk about how we deal with the pandemic and how we help our kids through this. Dr. Joe Rigney is here with us today to help us talk about this. Joe, welcome.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Thanks for having me. I\u2019m glad to be here.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Joe is a pastor in Minnesota, pastors City Church. He\u2019s also an assistant professor of theology and literature at Bethlehem College and Seminary. He has written a book on this subject called <i>More Than a Battle.<\/i> You experienced this battle personally during adolescence; right?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Absolutely. This was sadly part of my story, as you were talking about your kids, growing up. I grew up in the \u201890s, so it was a very different struggle in some ways then. I can\u2019t imagine doing it now. It was very sad; I grieve that it\u2019s part of my story, but it is. There\u2019s things that happen in that adolescence\u2014junior high, high school, up through college\u2014that can really shape you and then set trajectories over time. It\u2019s a deep work of grace to have some of those ways you\u2019ve been formed to be reformed\/to be undone.\n\nI\u2019m grateful that God has done that in my life over the last 15 years; and I can be on this side of it, looking back. But being on this side of it\u2014by \u201cit,\u201d I mean, not that sexual temptation isn\u2019t an issue at all, that won\u2019t happen until glory\u2014but at least, now, there\u2019s been substantial measures of victory, and healing, and wholeness in relation to this struggle. This has been a deeply personal one in my life; therefore, I want to look back and say, \u201cI want to spare as many people as possible from having to walk through the sorts of stuff that I had to deal with in high school and college.\u201d\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> Joe, I\u2019m wondering, \u201cWhat do you think the percentages are of men that struggle?\u201d\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> I would guess like 99 or 100 percent. I actually think there was study\u2014\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> That\u2019s depressing.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> It\u2019s <i>so<\/i> depressing. There\u2019s a story\u2014I picked it up along the way, doing some research\u2014where somebody was going to try to study the effects of sort of the introduction of pornography to men. Psychologists put out a call: \u201cIf you\u2019ve never looked at pornography, would you show up? We\u2019ll pay you\u201d\u2014however much money\u2014\u201cto be part of this study.\u201d And they couldn\u2019t get anybody.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> Nobody showed up.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Nobody showed up; nobody fit that bill and could do it. Obviously, it\u2019s an anecdote. But I think the reality on the ground is that this is universal for men and very prevalent\u2014as you were saying\u2014for women more and more. It\u2019s not just that everybody deals with it; it\u2019s that substantial numbers of people are neck deep and losing in it. That\u2019s the greater tragedy.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> It\u2019s a different day\u2014when you said\/Joe, you were talking about the \u201890s\u2014I don\u2019t know exactly when the digital world hit us. Back then, when I was a child\u2014not the \u201890s; a little earlier\u2014you had to go <i>look<\/i> for it: you had to go get a magazine; you had to go buy it or fall into it at your buddy\u2019s house.\n\nToday\u2014walk us back\u2014take us back to the struggle that initiated in your own life. How did it start, and how did it progress?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> For me, it was that sort of thing\u2014kids bringing a <i>Playboy<\/i> to school in junior high\u2014and everybody sitting around the magazine, wide-eyed; right? Looking back, that was me. You can kind of distance from it as an adult; but man, there was some innocence that was lost in that moment and in the fascination that led to being over at a friends\u2019 house, like you\u2019re saying: late night HBO\u2014or something like that\u2014it was those sort of things; right? Like you said, you do have to go look for it. You had to get the magazines and avoid eye contact with anyone you\u2019re buying it from. Then, fast forward, you get to the digital age; the internet comes along; that was an issue more for me in college.\n\nThen, today\u2014sexual sin\/sexual temptation is as old as dirt\u2014this is not a new struggle. Paul had to deal with pagan prostitutes, and temple prostitutes, and stuff like that. Victorians had their brothels. But we have brothels in our pocket; that\u2019s the new thing. Everybody has this unprecedented access <i>and<\/i> anonymity\u2014you don\u2019t have to keep your eyes down at a store clerk that you\u2019re buying the magazine from. It\u2019s that unprecedented access and the anonymity that it brings that takes it to a different level. Then, you add to that, that there are corporations and people whose <i>entire vocation<\/i> is devoted to hooking you. The swiping and all that stuff is designed to hook you\u2014not just on your social media\/your Facebook\u00ae and Twitter\u00ae and everything else\u2014but to this. There\u2019s people\/there\u2019s human beings devoting concerted effort.\n\nThen, we have to imagine\u2014right?\u2014that there are dark powers behind those human powers that are also orchestrating. There\u2019s a big array of forces that are trying to destroy individuals, families, churches around this issue. I\u2019ve felt, in my ministry primarily to college students over the last 15 years, I see it; and I want to help. It\u2019s possible\u2014I think that\u2019s the thing that was\/this would be a big difference between college me and 38-year-old me\u2014and really, 25\/26.\n\nOnce it happened, it was like, \u201cOh, I had no idea this was even possible.\u201d I couldn\u2019t imagine that you could be <i>free<\/i>. My imagination was so stunted. There\u2019s a text in the Bible in Romans 8\u2014Paul says, \u201cWe are debtors, not to the flesh to live according to the flesh.\u201d I remember feeling, \u201cThat\u2019s exactly what it feels like. It feels like I\u2019m a debtor to the flesh. It feels like sin shows up\/flesh shows up and says, \u2018You have to pay up now, and there\u2019s nothing you can do about it. You\u2019re a slave, so come on.\u2019\u201d When you\u2019re trapped there; and you have no horizon to get a different kind of air\u2014part of this whole project is\u2014I want to introduce men\/mainly, men\u2014but I think it could apply to women as well\u2014\u201cThere\u2019s a different air to breathe.\u201d\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> The idea that there might be freedom\/there might be victory seems elusive for so many guys. I\u2019ve had the experience of getting an email that I thought was one thing\u2014clicking on the link in the email, and go, \u201cOh!\u201d\u2014and having to hide the screen and click out of there as quick as I can. It seeks <i>you<\/i> out, instead of you having to seek it out.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> The crazy thing is, in some ways\u2014again, I don\u2019t, Bob, know exactly what you\u2019re talking about\u2014but the images that you may click on\/again, you stumble into, compared to 20\/30 years ago\u2014it may have been more like a lingerie ad\u2014<i>now<\/i>, it\u2019s <i>degrading<\/i>. You\u2019re thinking of ten-year-olds, and eight-year-olds, and thirteen-year-olds, that\u2019s an image they see. They should never see that\u2014\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> \u2014ever.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> \u2014none of us should ever see that <i>any<\/i> minute in our life.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> Did your dad ever have a conversation with you to prepare you for what might be there?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Not really. Once it was ongoing, there was an attempt I think, if I remember right. But there wasn\u2019t really. I had other mentors at church and things like that. I was a little awkward with my dad, I guess. He was a Christian, and I am grateful for all of the good things he did; but this was an area, where I don\u2019t think he quite knew what to do.\n\nI had mentors at church. One of the things that I learned\u2014at some point, we formed some accountability groups\u2014peer level\/so high school guys. Now, hindsight, looking back, those were just big puddles of sin. I don\u2019t know that those were actually all that helpful. I think there was something good in it: we wanted to\/we knew this was wrong; we knew we didn\u2019t want to be addicted to pornography; we didn\u2019t want to be doing this; but we were all <i>in<\/i> it. We\u2019re coming to confess sin; it was like, \u201cWell, now what do we do?\u201d Nobody knew how to get out; everybody was in the same boat.\n\nAnother element of this is\u2014my project has been recognizing the importance of mentors\u2014godly men, who are a step removed\/who have had substantial victory in this area and can, therefore, provide that model and that hopefulness: \u201cHey, you can come to where I\u2019m at. You don\u2019t have to stay in the pit; you can get out by the grace of God.\u201d\n\nThat was a <i>major<\/i> thing for me in college. I had a college pastor, who I didn\u2019t realize all of the good he was doing to me in counseling me through this struggle. In hindsight, I\u2019m like, \u201cThere was so much wisdom.\u201d I had the Bible verses; I\u2019d had those memorized; I\u2019d read books. It was his presence that connected the Scriptures and my life in such a way that there was actual transformation. That\u2019s a major element of what I\u2019m trying to encourage, is communities of men, where you have guys\u2014who have had victory, and healing, and restoration in this area\u2014who are trying to help walk with men, who are still in the pit and help them get out.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> I think, as I listen to you\u2014and obviously, it\u2019s in your book\u2014the value and the importance of a man being in community cannot be overstated.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes; correct.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Again, I\u2019m not saying women\u2014it isn\u2019t a struggle for them\u2014same thing. But, man oh man, what you just said requires you initiating, finding a mentor\/you initiating, finding men, and having the courage to be that real.\n\nI think we hide. I would just say this: \u201cIf you\u2019re a man, alone with this battle, you\u2019re going down; it\u2019s <i>not<\/i> winnable without other men in your life\u201d; right?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Hidden sins kill Christians because they\u2019re hidden.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes; and I\u2019ve never heard the mentor part; that\u2019s a different angle. I\u2019ve heard, \u201cWe need accountability\u201d; and in some ways, I think guys gave up\u2014because they went in there, like you said\u2014\u201cWe shared our sin; we kept sinning.\u201d That needs to be a unique group of men, but the mentor is critical; isn\u2019t it? I\u2019ve never heard that\u2014\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> It is.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u2014to have an older man.\n\n<b>Joe: <\/b>\u2014an older man. And sometimes, it may not be older. It\u2019s mainly someone who, on this issue, has achieved, by the grace of God, substantial victory so that they can provide hopefulness. They can look at you and say, \u201cYou\u2019re not going to be here forever. It may take time. There are some things that have to get rewired, because you\u2019ve conditioned yourself by your habits that you formed while you were in junior high and high school. It\u2019s going to take time; it\u2019s a long war\/a long war. You\u2019ve got to think long-term here, but you can get here. \u201c\n\nPart of the audience here is\u2014I\u2019m a pastor\u2014I want to have something I can hand to the guys in my church that are doing it\/that are living it and say, \u201cHey; you guys have this; now go find the guys who are struggling.\u201d It\u2019s not just that the guys, who are struggling, have to initiate.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> That\u2019s good.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> I want churches to be able to be the sort of place, where it\u2019s like: \u201cIt\u2019s <i>obvious<\/i> where you go. There\u2019s a group of men, and we know those guys, they know how to pastor guys through this struggle. They\u2019ve seen fruitfulness, and they\u2019ve seen hopefulness.\u201d Guys go, \u201cThat\u2019s where I\u2019m going to go\u201d; there\u2019s no question of who has to initiate.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> For wives to read that, and to have older women that are helping them also say, \u201cThere is hope for your husband and for your marriage.\u201d That\u2019s big.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> That is so big.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> Go back and talk to us about being in this pit, and these other guys being in this pit. What did that do to your spiritual walk with God?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> It\u2019s interesting. It was like a ping pong match; it was a ping pong match, honestly, between lust and pride. Basically, my spiritual walk\u2014the measuring stick became whether or not I had looked at pornography recently\u2014if I hadn\u2019t, I felt pretty good about myself and kind of got a little swagger; I\u2019d be feeling pretty confident. It hadn\u2019t been all of that long, honestly; but I felt good about myself.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> Did you feel like, \u201cI\u2019ve kicked it!\u201d?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes; there was a sense of, \u201cOkay; I\u2019m good; I\u2019m good.\u201d Then, all of a sudden, here it would come again, and then I\u2019d fall. Then it would be this hopelessness\/this despair\u2014that\u2019s the way it pulls you in\u2014there\u2019s an allurement; and the moment you\u2019re over the cliff, it\u2019s accusation\/they\u2019re just on you: \u201cYou\u2019re a failure.\u201d\n\nPart of what I talked about in the book is the \u201cbinge trap,\u201d which is, basically, the mentality that says, after you\u2019ve failed: \u201cI already blew it. I might as well blow it <i>a lot.<\/i> I might as well go whole hog, because I\u2019m already down here.\u201d\n\nIt\u2019s interesting\u2014after writing the book\u2014in our church, I\u2019ve got some folks I\u2019m working with on different areas, like on anxiety. I said, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you read this?\u201d I gave them the draft of the manuscript: \u201cI know this is talking about sexual sin, but sin is sin. Sin is sin; see if reading this helps.\u201d It actually did. There\u2019s ways in which the temptation operate on us, and the patterns we get into are very similar.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> I thought I picked up a little John Owen, <i>Mortification of the Flesh<\/i>, as I was reading through your manuscript.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Absolutely; you did.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> It\u2019s interesting\u2014you\u2019re talking about sort of the cycle. I remember\u2014and I\u2019m sure we\u2019re all Bible scholars sitting around here\u2014we\u2019re familiar with James 1:13 where he talks about the <i>pattern<\/i> of sin. James says, \u201cWhen tempted, no one should say God is tempting me, for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.\u201d By the way, you ever done that?\u2014blame God?\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Absolutely.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> [Laughter] I have. But he[James] says, \u201cEach person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin. And sin, when it is full grown, gives birth to death.\u201d\n\nJoe, you were talking about the feeling of being powerless. I\u2019ve shared before one of my first journeys into that powerless world was on a Detroit Lions\u2019 trip\u2014actually, my first ever trip as a chaplain of the Detroit Lions\u2014Seattle Seahawks, preseason game. They put me in a hotel room in a nice hotel all by myself. Only a few listeners will remember these days\u2014that was when they had a little box on your TV, where you could order a movie\u2014there were six movies. I remember standing in front of the TV, looking at this box\/looking at the thing; three of them were Hollywood movies; three were porn.\n\nAs I looked at the thing\u2014I\u2019ll never forget\u2014I looked down. I\u2019m married; you know, I\u2019ve got kids at home. I look at this little paragraph that says, \u201cThis will not be added to your room bill until after five minutes.\u201d Obviously, that\u2019s changed, but that\u2019s how it was. The thought in my head is like, \u201cI could watch something for four minutes and fifty-nine seconds, and nobody will know.\u201d I thought, \u201cI\u2019ll never do this\u201d; and I clicked. Just standing there, looking at the TV, I clicked on one of those bad channels for probably ten seconds and turned it off. That ten seconds [snaps fingers] changed my life. It\u2019s like you swim into this pit you\u2019re talking about. The next time I walked in the hotel room, on the next road trip, it was this <i>power<\/i> drawing me there\u2014we\u2019re talking ten seconds!\u2014then, I had a secret. I\u2019d come home; I had to do chapel for the team. Just what you\u2019re saying, Joe, you\u2019re living this sort of lie.\n\nYou think about what James said; it\u2019s like you\u2019re drawn and dragged in. An interesting thing about the passage, I\u2019m sure you know, is it\u2019s a fishing term; so the pattern to lose looks like this\u2014there\u2019s bait; right? He says you have an evil desire; there\u2019s burn. I\u2019m a pastor, so we\u2019re going to do a little alliteration; right? Think about this: you\u2019ve got bait; you desire it, so there\u2019s this burn.\n\nHere\u2019s the choice\u2014you either bite, and you end up bait; he says you die, not physically. The other option was\u2014talk about this, because this is where we\u2019ve got to go\u2014if you win, what\u2019s the pattern? Talk about it! What is the pattern?\u2014because I think some people think, \u201cYou\u2019ll never have this desire again; it\u2019ll just go away.\u201d There\u2019s people that live with this utopia, like, \u201cThey don\u2019t have the desire I have; so I can\u2019t beat it, because they\u2019re different.\u201d I think the pattern\u2019s similar; right? There\u2019s still bait\u2014of course, that\u2019s up to you; you can eliminate that in some ways\u2014but there\u2019s still going to be desire there. But you have to make it a choice; you can bite or you can\u2014\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> \u2014walk away.\n\nI think two things there: one is that the image\/you have the fishing metaphor in the text; then you\u2019ve also got this pregnancy metaphor\u2014desire is <i>conceived<\/i>, sin is <i>conceived<\/i>, and then it gives <i>birth<\/i> to death\u2014that\u2019s the language. In some ways, what you were trying to do in that hotel room was be a little bit pregnant.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes; yes. [Laughter]\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> That\u2019s, oftentimes, how we approach this. We want to be a little bit pregnant: \u201cI want to get as close to that line as I can but try not to fall over.\u201d Honestly, for a lot of guys, it\u2019s the full going from pornography up to orgasm: \u201cI can dabble up until then, and I can swim in it; but if I don\u2019t go over <i>that<\/i> cliff, then I\u2019ve had some measure of victory,\u201d\u2014which is a lie\u2014it\u2019s you\u2019re moving closer and closer to the line; and eventually, you\u2019re going to get pulled in.\n\nThe flip side is: \u201cSuccess breeds success.\u201d There\u2019s a way in which you see the grace of God land so where you can actually feel the pull\/feel that temptation, and then walk away; you go, \u201cOh, there\u2019s something different.\u201d One of the things I talk about here is in Galatians, Chapter 5: Paul says that self-control is a fruit of the Spirit. There is a way in which God\/what is God doing for us in our sanctification?\u2014He\u2019s restoring control of you to you; so that you tell your eyes where to look; you tell your hand what to touch\/what to click on. You\u2019re in control of you\u2014because why?\u2014 the Spirit of God is at work in your life.\n\nThere\u2019s a way in which, when we are faced with temptation, and we\u2019re able, by the grace of God, to flee\u2014the biblical language would be \u201crun away\u201d; right?\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes; I use the word, \u201cbolt.\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<b>Joe: <\/b>Bolt.\n\n<b>Dave: <\/b>That\u2019s right; bolt instead of\u2014\n\n<b>Joe: <\/b>You are a pastor\u2014[Laughter]\n\n<b>Dave: <\/b>I mean, bolt is like\u2014\n\n<b>Joe: <\/b>\u2014probably a Baptist; right? [Laughter]\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> It\u2019s got all B\u2019s; it\u2019s good.\n\n<b>Joe:<\/b> Yes, you\u2019re going to bolt\u2014you\u2019re going to run\u2014you\u2019re going to flee. Then, when you\u2019re running away, you\u2019re going, \u201cI\u2019m real! The Spirit of God is at work in my life!\u201d That\u2019s emboldening. There\u2019s times, even to this day, where I can kind of feel that there\u2019s a greater degree of pull\u2014that wrong\/that sinful curiosity\u2014I will look for opportunities to win. I\u2019ll know I\u2019m going to Target, and you can\u2019t walk through\u2014I mean, you\u2019re talking about it comes looking for you\u2014you\u2019re walking through Target; I just want to get some milk. [Laughter] It\u2019s like, \u201cWhat is going to be all over the billboards\/what\u2019s going to be all over, high up, where everybody can see it?\u201d\u2014is going to be the lingerie ads, and all this kind of stuff, or the magazine rack, or whatever. It\u2019s like, \u201cI know that\u2019s coming; I tell my eyes where to look.\u201d <i>I<\/i> tell my eyes where to look, because God is taking control of me; and therefore, He\u2019s restored control of me to me. I\u2019m going to get a small victory here as I walk out the door. I\u2019m going to thank God as I walk out the door.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> I have to say, guys, this topic breeds fear into so many women. As I listen, I\u2019m thinking of the moms, the grandmothers, the wives that are listening, thinking, \u201cWe don\u2019t know what to do. We don\u2019t know how to battle this with our husbands or for our kids.\u201d\n\nI\u2019m glad we\u2019re having this conversation, because we need help.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> I do think this is where a wife can come along, and instead of saying, \u201cI\u2019m going to be afraid that you\u2019re going to fall, or that this is going to be an issue for you,\u201d she can come along and say, \u201cI want to be your ally in the battle here. I may not be able to understand what\u2019s actually going on in your thinking, but I do know that this is real for you; I know this is a challenge for guys.\u201d\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> I think for us, as women, to enter into the battle with our men, and our daughters, is really important.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> I remember when I told Ann\u2014we\u2019re talking 40 years ago?\u2014\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> I was battling <i>against<\/i> him.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> Yes; right. It was one of the scariest moments of my life to admit. Then, when I did, I wanted, Bob\/I wanted her to be my ally; but she had to process anger first, which I didn\u2019t really expect.\n\n<b>Ann:<\/b> \u2014and fear and pain.\n\n<b>Dave:<\/b> I got mad at her for being mad at me. She thought, \u201cThis is all about me. I\u2019m not enough.\u201d Every one of us is going, \u201cNo; it has nothing to do with you, honey.\u201d But a woman doesn\u2019t understand that; right? She\u2019s like, \u201cIf I was adequate, you wouldn\u2019t have to\u2026\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cNo\u2026\u201d The journey, though\u2014we got through it\u2014she got to a place, where the anger\u2014not in a day or a week\u2014but now, you\u2019re my ally; it\u2019s a beautiful thing.\n\n<b>Bob:<\/b> And your book is here to help husbands and wives recognize, not only what is going on, but that there is a way to deal with the issue of lust and pornography. Joe\u2019s book is called <i>More Than a Battle: How to Experience Victory, Freedom, and Healing from Lust.<\/i> We think this book is so important we\u2019re making it available to anybody who can make a donation to help support the ministry of <i>FamilyLife Today.<\/i> When you invest in FamilyLife\u00ae, what you\u2019re doing is helping more people, more regularly, be able to receive practical biblical help and hope for their marriage and their family. That\u2019s a part of our mission\u2014to effectively develop godly marriages and families.\n\nWhen you support that mission, you extend the reach of <i>FamilyLife Today.<\/i> We want to say, \u201cThank you for your support,\u201d by sending you a copy of Joe Rigney\u2019s book, <i>More Than a Battle<\/i>. Go online to FamilyLifeToday.com to make a donation, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. Ask for your copy of the book, <i>More Than a Battle: How to Experience Victory, Freedom, and Healing from Lust<\/i> by Joe Rigney. Again, donate online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. We look forward to hearing from you.\n\nTomorrow, we\u2019re going to continue our conversation with Joe Rigney, talking about what\u2019s really going on in a man\u2019s heart when he finds himself being drawn toward lust\/toward pornography. Joe will be back with us, again, tomorrow. I hope you can be back with us as well.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <i>FamilyLife Today<\/i>.\n\n<i>FamilyLife Today<\/i> is a production of FamilyLife\u00ae of Little Rock, Arkansas;\n\na Cru\u00ae Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<hr \/>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright \u00a9 2021 FamilyLife. 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