{"id":306649,"date":"2020-12-29T07:00:04","date_gmt":"2020-12-29T12:00:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/christmas-and-easter-and-other-cultural-christians\/"},"modified":"2020-12-29T07:00:04","modified_gmt":"2020-12-29T12:00:04","slug":"christmas-and-easter-and-other-cultural-christians","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/christmas-and-easter-and-other-cultural-christians\/","title":{"rendered":"Christmas and Easter and Other Cultural Christians"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Dean Inserra reminds us that salvation isn&#8217;t a rite of passage, but a response to your understanding to the gospel. Find out what to say to a child when he or she wants to ask Jesus into their heart.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-12-29.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:30:08","filesize":"27.59M","filesize_raw":"28927662","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2906,2867,2821],"tags":[4299],"podcast_series":[8309],"cwp_profile":[9567],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-306649","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-becoming-a-christian","category-church-involvement","category-reaching-out","tag-faith","podcast_series-the-unsaved-christian","cwp_profile-dean-inserra","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/306649\/christmas-and-easter-and-other-cultural-christians","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/306649\/christmas-and-easter-and-other-cultural-christians","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"LplsYxc5ND\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/christmas-and-easter-and-other-cultural-christians\/\">Christmas and Easter and Other Cultural Christians<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/christmas-and-easter-and-other-cultural-christians\/embed\/#?secret=LplsYxc5ND\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Christmas and Easter and Other Cultural Christians&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"LplsYxc5ND\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Dean Inserra reminds us that salvation isn't a rite of passage, but a response to your understanding to the gospel. Find out what to say to a child when he or she wants to ask Jesus into their heart.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-12-29.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>How can you tell whether somebody is a cultural Christian or someone who\u2019s actually experienced a spiritual rebirth\/transformation? Here\u2019s Pastor Dean Inserra. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dean: <\/strong>The first thing I\u2019m looking for, out of the gate, is what they believe\u2014and not just a generic belief in God. I want to know what they believe to be true about the person and work of Jesus Christ\u2014like, \u201cWhat has He actually truly done?\u201d I ask them to write a theological paper; I want to make sure they\u2019re clear on what we call first-tier issues\u2014that Jesus died for our sins; He was risen again. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThose things <em>have<\/em> <em>to be clear<\/em>, and not just academically, but that it actually means something. That\u2019s the next thing\u2014that there\u2019s been a repentance of sin; there\u2019s been a response to that. I\u2019m looking for belief, which we\u2019ll call faith\u2014but not generic faith\u2014faith in the Jesus of the Bible. Then I want to look for repentance that\u2019s led to them forsaking their former life and living the new creation that God has given them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, December 29<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. How can we help someone, who may be a cultural Christian, understand that their Christianity is missing something? We\u2019re going to talk more about that today. Stay with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition. We are going to talk about some really serious stuff today with our guest Dean Inserra; but before we get to Dean, this is crunch time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, I tell you what\u2014when I\/I don\u2019t know, Bob\u2014what do you think of when you hear \u201ccrunch time\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You\u2019re thinking fourth quarter; don\u2019t you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m an old quarterback: two-minute drill; you need to score. The scoreboard\u2019s up there; you\u2019ve got no timeouts. I mean, again, you <em>feel<\/em> that. It\u2019s like, in that moment, everybody in that huddle\/everybody on your sideline has to be all in.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> When you say, \u201ccrunch time\u201d\u2014it\u2019s yearend\u2014it\u2019s been one of those years. I don\u2019t know if we\u2019ve ever had a year like this, ever in my life; so \u201ccrunch time\u201d means: \u201cAre we going to step up? Are we going to be a team that wins?\u201d It doesn\u2019t happen without <em>every<\/em> one of us saying, \u201cI\u2019m in.\u201d What I mean by that is\u2014I mean financially\u2014FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup><em>depends<\/em> on listener\u2019s support, financially. We need your prayers; we need your help. We\u2019re bringing you help and hope. We\u2019re asking you to bring <em>us<\/em> help and hope by saying, \u201cI\u2019m going to be a partner. I\u2019m going to step in that huddle. I\u2019m going to give you everything I\u2019ve got, and I\u2019m going to jump in.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, it\u2019s easy to sit in the stands and watch. You win ballgames with people getting in the huddle and saying, \u201cI\u2019m in.\u201d I tell you what\u2014we\u2019re in; we\u2019re inviting you to join us as well. This is yearend; it\u2019s a beautiful time to say, \u201cI want to be a part of something that\u2019s making a difference,\u201d and you can do that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The next three days make a <em>huge<\/em> difference. What we hear from you, over the next three days, is going to determine what 2021 looks like.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And we need you, because this is the last week of giving in December. We\u2019re excited about the new year, but this is <em>critical<\/em> for FamilyLife; it\u2019s critical for families, so we need you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Again, we got some good news recently. We had a $2 million-matching gift that, here in the last few days, people have stepped up and said, \u201cWe really want to see FamilyLife cross the goal line and score\u201d; so they have <em>increased<\/em> the amount of the matching gift; it\u2019s now $2.7 million. That means, when you donate today, your donation is going to be matched, dollar for dollar, until we take full advantage of that matching-gift opportunity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe want to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d here at yearend, with a couple of special gifts. The first is a copy of my book, <em>Love Like You Mean It,<\/em> which came out this year. It\u2019s [received] great response. I\u2019ve been very encouraged by the response from listeners.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It\u2019s a <em>great<\/em> book, Bob.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, it is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, thank you guys. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn addition, we want to send you a flash drive that has the top 100-plus <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> radio programs from the last 28 years: programs with you guys, programs with Dennis and Barbara Rainey; programs about marriage, about parenting, about extended family relationships; great stories of God\u2019s work in people\u2019s lives. We\u2019ll send you both the flash drive and the book, and your donation will be doubled, when you give today. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to give online, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a yearend donation. Let me just say, \u201cThanks,\u201d in advance, for whatever you\u2019re able to do. We hope to hear from you this week, and we hope <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> continues to be an encouragement to you and a blessing to you in 2021.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, we\u2019re going to talk today about people who are Christians in name only, really, is what we\u2019re talking about. I remember a conversation I had many years ago with a friend of mine, who was a single mom. She was in her early 30s, and she really wanted to have another baby; but she was a single mom. She met a guy. She came into the office one day; and she said, \u201cI\u2019ve met this guy.\u201d I said, \u201cTell me about him.\u201d She starts talking about him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI said, \u201cSo, is he a Christian?\u201d She said, \u201cNo, but I think he\u2019s close.\u201d I said, \u201cWell, you shouldn\u2019t even be having a conversation until this issue is settled.\u201d I could tell\u2014it was like, \u201cBut I really want to have a baby.\u201d She came in one day; and she said, \u201cIt happened last night.\u201d I said, \u201cWhat do you mean?\u201d She said, \u201cWe were up until like three in the morning, talking; and finally, he prayed to become a Christian.\u201d I said, \u201cTell me about the conversation.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe went on with this; I said, \u201cThis is <em>great<\/em>.\u201d She said, \u201cSo we can get married now.\u201d I said, \u201cWell, hang on; time out. You probably need to just watch this for a while and see: \u2018Does he like Jesus because he loves you?\u2019 or \u2018Does he love Jesus whether you\u2019re in the picture or not?\u2019\u201d She ultimately married him; got pregnant; he left. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Oh!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I\u2019ve looked back on that story because a lot of people think the hurdle we\u2019re looking at, when we\u2019re talking about somebody becoming a Christian, is that prayer hurdle\u2014that\u2019s giving birth; right? You need to watch for the signs of real life once that prayer has been prayed to know: \u201cIs there something really going on?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re talking about this because we\u2019re talking about what it looks like to be an <em>Unsaved Christian<\/em>\u2014that\u2019s the title of a book that our guest, Dean Inserra\u2014who\u2019s joining us today on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>\u2014has written. Dean, welcome.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dean:<\/strong> Thank you. It\u2019s great to be with you guys.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You\u2019ve done enough pre-marital counseling as a pastor.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dean:<\/strong> Lots and lots. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You\u2019ve seen this kind of scenario; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dean:<\/strong> Definitely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You\u2019ve got somebody, who really loves Jesus, who is attracted to somebody, who kind of likes Jesus.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dean:<\/strong> And will justify their attraction to that person. They\u2019ll see themselves as \u201cGod\u2019s put me here as an evangelist.\u201d Or they might abandon their theology they have for everybody else\u2014where everyone else needs Jesus in order to be saved\u2014this person, all of a sudden, gets an exemption; because they\u2019re a great guy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I was an expert at this. I would bring these boyfriends to Jesus\u2014like: \u201cI can\u2019t date you unless you\u2019re a believer,\u201d so they\u2019d pray that prayer; and nothing changed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>When I met Dave, my husband\u2014you\u2014[Laughter]\u2014man, he was going <em>hard<\/em> after Jesus and displaying\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Finally, a man you can trust. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014exhibiting so much fruit. His life\u2014it was <em>beyond<\/em> what anyone else I had dated exhibited in terms of\u2014he was living the gospel; fruit was evident.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s interesting\u2014we\u2019ve already talked this week about this\u2014all three of you had an interesting conversion story: \u201cI thought I was a Christian, then I realized I wasn\u2019t, and I became one.\u201d Mine\u2019s the same. I wonder how many people have that story? Because mine involved a girl\u2014I\u2019m dating her, and I gave my life to Christ. She starts being warm to the gospel and warm to the Bible, but <em>nothing<\/em> changed. When I realized she\u2019s seeing another guy, I go home, get on my knees, and that\u2019s my moment.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You know\u2014how many people have you heard share their testimony\u2014and their testimony is: \u201cWhen I was seven\u2026\u201d \u201cWhen I went to camp, when I was 13, I prayed the prayer.\u201d Then there\u2019s a great lapse; and then they will often say, \u201cThen I made Jesus Lord.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDean, I want to ask you about that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Here we go. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> In that gap, between the \u201cstick in the fire\u201d and \u201cmaking Jesus Lord,\u201d if they die, do they go to heaven? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dean: <\/strong>I would say, \u201cNo\u201d; because salvation is not a hocus-pocus rite of passage or some kind of \u201cmoment.\u201d Salvation is a response to your understanding of the good news of Jesus Christ. The process of \u201cI made Him Lord,\u201d\u2014or whatever people like to say\u2014I would argue the better way for them to put that\u2014that\u2019s the language they certainly use\u2014would be: \u201cNow, I understand for the first time,\u201d \u201cNow, I actually understand.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat we\u2019ve done, in America especially, is we\u2019ve created this kind of superstitious kind of hocus-pocus rite of passage that we call coming to faith in Jesus that requires no repentance\/no really clear understanding besides a prayer. It\u2019s led a lot of people astray. I\u2019m not trying to say that children can\u2019t come to faith in Christ. Jesus said, \u201cLet the little children come to Me.\u201d But let\u2019s not forget what He said. \u201cLet the little children come to <em>Me<\/em>,\u201d\u2014like actually to <em>Him<\/em>\u2014not hocus-pocus, not \u201c\u2026heaven when you die,\u201d not superstition\u2014but actually to <em>Christ.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe love to say, \u201cJesus said, \u2018Let the little children come to Me.\u2019\u201d I want to respond to that by saying, \u201cExactly. Make sure that what they\u2019re coming to is actually <em>Christ<\/em> and what He has done, not a church rite of passage.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> A parent, who has a four-year-old son or daughter, who comes to them this week, and says, \u201cI want to ask Jesus into my heart.\u201d Do you pray a prayer with the kid and go to bed that night, going, \u201cOur son became a Christian today\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dean:<\/strong> I would say, \u201cNo.\u201d I would say, if your child comes to you and says\u2014a four-year-old child\u2014and says, \u201cI want to ask Jesus into my heart,\u201d say, \u201cThat\u2019s great! Let\u2019s talk about Jesus!\u201d Go away from the \u201cheart\u201d part\u2014and the \u201cAsk Jesus into my heart\u201d part. Again, there\u2019s nothing <em>wrong<\/em> with that; but it\u2019s not in the Bible, either. It\u2019s something we made up in Christian culture in recent history, like last 100 years kind of history\u2014very, very new in all of church history. Again, not bad\u2014not even wrong\u2014just not really a biblical concept.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI would say, \u201cThat\u2019s awesome! That\u2019s great!\u201d and have conversations about God and read them stories from the Bible about God. Read them Sally Lloyd-Jones\u2019s <em>Jesus Storybook Bible<\/em> to them to help them understand\u2014those types of things. Go away from, \u201cI want to ask Jesus into my heart,\u201d and instead go into how God loves them, and what that means, and how that love\u2014help them understand that it\u2019s not a random love like of their puppy\u2014like, \u201cHere\u2019s how much God loves them. Look what God\u2019s done for them\u2026\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019d say, \u201cHold the phone\u201d\u2014now, not on conversations\u2014\u201cHold the phone on \u2018This is a family milestone, because Billy accepted Jesus.\u2019\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Do you think there is an age that they can process and understand the gospel?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dean:<\/strong> Not a cut-off age; I think it\u2019s kid by kid. I think they have to be able to really understand. At the same time they can understand math, and they can understand difficult concepts at school, they can definitely understand the gospel. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor my son, Tommy, rather than a moment\u2014we have to get away from that idea that it\u2019s a moment, and a second, and a time kind of approach. My oldest son, Tommy\u2014he\u2019s 12\u2014for us, he didn\u2019t have a 7-, 8-, or 9-year-old prayer moment. He had like a six-year-running-as-we-go conversation of being in church, being exposed to the Bible, being exposed to other Christians, hearing the gospel over and over again.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Theologically, you look at that and go, \u201cThere was a point in time. There was a new birth moment in that six-year period. You just can\u2019t put your finger on what that moment was\u201d; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dean:<\/strong> Yes; I definitely believe in new birth, beyond a shadow of a doubt. But the exact second and moment, I\u2019m not sure when that was. I don\u2019t think that new birth is a process, either; I do believe it happens, and it\u2019s instantaneous. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut we have made that phenomenon\/that theological, even mystery\u2014not the mystery of a new birth\u2014but how that all comes about\u2014we have made it into like a three-minute conversation at the dinner table with mom and dad. I\u2019m not saying it <em>can\u2019t<\/em> be that; but I\u2019m not saying it <em>has<\/em> to be that, either. We just were patient; we\u2019re going to trust God\u2019s sovereignty in that, too. We also were\u2014we didn\u2019t sit on our hands; we were constantly having conversations.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s what I was going to say. I think some parents could be listening, thinking, \u201cAm I not supposed to ask them if they want to know Jesus?\u201d They\u2019re kind of freaking out right now. I think that conversation and continually sharing the gospel\u2014of what that means\u2014and fielding questions, and asking them questions, and letting them ask us questions is really important. Then, to continue that into teenage years. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat we can do, as parents, is think, \u201cThey prayed that prayer when they were three or four. They\u2019re good.\u201d Then the conversation <em>stops<\/em>. But with teenagers, I think to continually be asking\u2014that\u2019s why, for Dave, he didn\u2019t want our kids to be baptized when\u2014this is just a personal decision\u2014because he\u2019s like: \u201cI want to <em>see<\/em> their faith displayed. I want it to be <em>them<\/em> wanting it, not wanting them to please <em>us<\/em>.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; we had an extended conversation on this subject, years ago, with a guy named Jim Elliff. There\u2019s a podcast on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com if listeners would like to listen to a <em>long<\/em> exploration of this whole issue of childhood conversion and childhood evangelism. I remember him saying: \u201cIf your son or daughter comes to you and has any kind of a spiritual inclination, whatever that is, celebrate it. Delight in it! Pour fuel on that fire.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJust don\u2019t assume that that momentary spiritual inclination means any more than when they come the next day and say, \u201cWhen I grow up, I want to be a dinosaur\u201d; you know? That\u2019s where they are in processing things. So, delight and rejoice, but just don\u2019t draw a conclusion that a four-year-old\u2019s spiritual interest is any more than just a momentary thing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dean:<\/strong> I agree 100 percent. So often, in evangelical life, there\u2019s that rush; there\u2019s that\u2014it\u2019s like a rite of passage. I\u2019m just like, \u201cPump the brakes!\u201d [Laughter] But not\/don\u2019t put the brakes on conversation\u2014go full-throttle on <em>that<\/em>. With the baptism\u2014that is <em>the<\/em> public profession\u2014the hand-raise is not the public profession. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> As a pastor, as a man who preaches, do you do an altar call?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dean:<\/strong> Every now and then. Again, it\u2019s a recent phenomenon in church history. A call to someone to respond to the gospel is not a recent phenomenon, but the altar call is definitely a recent phenomenon. It\u2019s very American-based. We have to remember those things: \u201cHow come Christians, for this many hundreds and hundreds of years, never did that?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere is a call to faith and repentance, and then to respond\u2014those type of things. But altar call for us? Again, I think it was Moody who said, \u201cI like my way of doing evangelism better than your way of not doing evangelism,\u201d so I\u2019m not going to be critical of altar calls. I just don\u2019t think that they are necessary and the end all of end all. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe one thing I will be critical of, a little bit, is\u2014it\u2019s easy to manipulate people and set the mood. People came to faith in Christ before the keyboards played in the background, and before the pastor said, \u201cEvery head bowed and every eye closed.\u201d Through hundreds of years of church history, people came to know Jesus before those things. Those things aren\u2019t bad; I\u2019m not saying those things are wrong. I\u2019m just saying that we can\u2019t believe that that has to be the evangelism strategy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI came to Christ on an altar call, so I do believe God uses those. Many people listening to this came that way. Also, many people falsely were assured because of an altar call. We have to make sure, again, we\u2019re <em>clear<\/em>. We\u2019re not trying to manipulate; we\u2019re <em>clear<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> To that point, I\u2019ve talked to moms and dads, whose sons or daughters have become wayward\/sometimes, in extreme waywardness. The mom or dad says, \u201cMy one hope is, when they were seven, they prayed; and I think he seriously meant it when he was seven.\u201d I will say to that parent, \u201cThat should not give you confidence. That can give you <em>hope<\/em> that your child was converted, but their current life works against that hope.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s better to have a confidence than it is to have a hope that your child is converted. If you want a confidence, you need to keep sharing the gospel. I\u2019ve said to folks, \u201cThe gospel is not something you just share with unsaved people. We need to be sharing the gospel with one another all the time, because I need the gospel; I need to re-remember the gospel <em>every day<\/em>.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dean:<\/strong> Sometimes, one of the biggest <em>barriers<\/em> to reaching an unsaved Christian, or a cultural Christian, or a nominal Christian\u2014or whatever title you want to use\u2014is those parents\u2014who again love Jesus; who love their child\u2014but 50-year-old mom and dad <em>insist<\/em> their child is a Christian when he will even tell you that he\u2019s not. That\u2019s an evangelism barrier. They\u2019re not having those gospel conversations because, \u201cI was there when he knelt down at the pastor and asked Jesus into his heart.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDo you see what we\u2019ve done with this culture? We\u2019ve created false assurance <em>everywhere<\/em>. We\u2019ve made it <em>wrong<\/em> to question whether or not someone\u2019s saved. Paul wrote, \u201cExamine yourselves to see if you\u2019re in the faith,\u201d to the Corinthian church. I think it\u2019s very appropriate to not manipulate someone to doubt all the time; we\u2019re not supposed to doubt, either. We\u2019re supposed to examine to make <em>sure<\/em> that we\u2019re in the faith. What that looks like is that my assurance is <em>not<\/em> <em>in a decision<\/em>, it\u2019s actually in <em>Christ<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If somebody is saying to you, \u201cI want to thank the man upstairs,\u201d \u201c\u2026thank the good Lord,\u201d\u2014using that kind of conversational language, again, don\u2019t presume that it\u2019s Jesus they\u2019re talking about; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dean:<\/strong> Exactly, because cultural Christianity <em>loves<\/em> a very generic and vague God and Jesus. Their definition: \u201cNo cross; no judgement. I love\u2026\u201d\u2014it\u2019s not even a true love of the Bible; it\u2019s just a vague love, just kind of love for the sake of love, not a love that is grounded in what God has done for us in His grace and mercy. But we want them to <em>know<\/em> this, <em>understand<\/em> this, and <em>believe<\/em> this\u2014it\u2019s for them; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What does it look like to you when you see somebody and think, \u201cThis person is a believer in Christ.\u201d What are you looking for?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dean:<\/strong> The first thing I\u2019m looking for, out of the gate, is what they believe\u2014and not just a generic belief in God. James said, \u201cYou believe in God? Okay; so do the demons.\u201d I\u2019m talking about this vague, generic belief in \u201cthe big guy upstairs.\u201d I want to know what they believe to be true about the person and work of Jesus Christ\u2014like, \u201cWhat has He actually truly done?\u201d I ask them to write a theological paper; you know, I want to make sure they\u2019re clear on what we call first-tier issues\u2014that Jesus died for our sins; He was risen again. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThose things <em>have to be<\/em> <em>clear<\/em>, and not just academically, but that it actually means something. That\u2019s the next thing\u2014that there\u2019s been a repentance of sin; there\u2019s been a response to that. I\u2019m looking for belief, which we\u2019ll call faith\u2014but not generic faith\u2014like faith in the Jesus of the Bible. Then I want to look for repentance that has led to them forsaking their former life and living the new creation that God has given them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You know, I preached recently through the book of 1 John. John is dealing with this issue of people, who are saying, \u201cWe\u2019re the real followers of Jesus.\u201d They\u2019re false teachers in this case. He says, \u201cYou want to know the true from the false,\u201d\u2014he said\u2014\u201clook at what they believe about Jesus, look at how they live, and look at how they love.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cIs your relationship with others\u2014and how that\u2019s going?\u2014is that different than it used to be? Are the choices you\u2019re making about your life\u2014are those different than they used to be? Is what you believe about Jesus different than it used to be?\u201d If it\u2019s not, you ought to pull back and go, \u201cAm I really here?\u201d If it is, that\u2019s pretty good evidence. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember a guy coming up to me one Sunday after church. I\u2019d just finished a message. He came up to me and said, \u201cI think I need what you were talking about.\u201d I said, \u201cTell me more.\u201d He said: \u201cYou were talking about needing to have a relationship with Jesus, and about having faith, and believing in God, and living your life that way. I think I need that.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI said to him: \u201cOkay, here\u2019s what I want you to do. I want you to go home; and this week, I want you to read the Gospel of John. Then next week, I want to have a conversation with you about what you read in the Gospel of John.\u201d There\u2019s some people, who would\u2019ve said: \u201cWhy didn\u2019t you just pray the prayer with him right there? I mean, it\u2019s ripe fruit; just pick it.\u201d I was going, \u201cI just want to know: \u2018Is the Spirit really at work here? or \u2018What\u2019s really going on?\u2019\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe came back the next Sunday. As soon as I said, \u201cAmen,\u201d at the end of the service, he\u2019s right back up. He said, \u201cI read the Gospel of John; in fact, I read the whole Gospel every day. I read it seven times.\u201d At that point I go, \u201cThere\u2019s something going on\u201d; because most people don\u2019t go home and say, \u201cI\u2019ve got to read this again.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI can\u2019t diagnose fully\u2014you\u2019ve been here, as a pastor\u2014you don\u2019t know: \u201cIs this really a work of the Spirit?\u201d or \u201cIs this something else going on in somebody\u2019s life?\u201d But when somebody has a hunger for God\u2019s Word, and they\u2019re reading it, day in and day out, I\u2019m going: \u201cSomething\u2019s happening here. Lord, we\u2019re going to trust that this is the case.\u201d That\u2019s where we did have a time of prayer, and where he trusted Christ, and then was baptized after that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Did you ever think, if he\u2019d gone home that first Sunday, and got hit by a truck, that\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I had somebody ask me that same question\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s why I\u2019m asking you, Bob; I want to hear you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cWhy didn\u2019t you pray with him?\u201d and \u201cWhat if something had happened?\u201d I said, \u201cTwo things: first of all, if this is a real spiritual experience, it\u2019s not the prayer that\u2019s going to bring him to faith; he\u2019s already there.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Exactly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And the second thing I thought: \u201cIf God can\u2019t keep him alive for a week [Laughter] until we get back and have this conversation, we\u2019ve got a bigger problem than the sovereignty of God.\u201d It\u2019s like: \u201cOh man, if you just had prayed with him!\u201d\u2014I could\u2019ve gotten him saved!\u2014\u201cbut instead, that truck came along; and I couldn\u2019t stop it; so...\u201d I think we have to trust the sovereignty of God here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dean:<\/strong> Good answer. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I want to encourage our listeners to get a copy of your book, Dean, because I think this is an important book as we interact with family members and with friends. The book is called <em>The Unsaved Christian: Reaching Cultural Christianity with the Gospel<\/em>. You can go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to order a copy; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get a copy. Again, the title of the book, <em>The Unsaved Christian<\/em>, by Dean Inserra. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to order; or call 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, just a couple of days to go before it\u2019s 2021. I know a lot of us have been waiting for this calendar page to turn and to start a new year that, hopefully, will be less crazy than 2020 was. Here at FamilyLife, we\u2019re anxious for the new year to begin as well; but we\u2019re also anxious about the next couple of days, because what happens in the next couple of days will determine a lot of what happens in 2021 for us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have a matching gift\u2014we mentioned this earlier\u2014a matching gift that\u2019s been made available: $2.7 million that has been provided for us. As long as we hear from <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners, every donation that is sent in from a listener, like you, will be matched, dollar for dollar, until that fund runs dry. Right now, we still have a ways to go to get to that number, so we\u2019d like to ask you to consider today a yearend contribution to support the ongoing work of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> and to help us finish this year where we need to be. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen you make that donation, in addition to your donation being matched, dollar for dollar, we\u2019re also going to send you a copy of my book, <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em>\u2014all about what real love looks like in marriage. We look at 1 Corinthians 13 and see the aspects of biblical God-centered love, and we\u2019ll send you a flash drive that includes more than a hundred <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> programs from the last 28 years. The flash drive and the book are yours when you make a yearend donation today. You can do that easily, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you call 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we\u2019re going to continue talking about different kinds of cultural Christianity. We\u2019re going to talk about Bible Belt Christianity. Dean Inserra has some concerns about the way that gets lived out in some parts of our country. We\u2019ll talk more about that tomorrow. I hope you can be with us for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. 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