{"id":306623,"date":"2020-12-17T07:00:05","date_gmt":"2020-12-17T12:00:05","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/purity-today\/"},"modified":"2020-12-17T07:00:05","modified_gmt":"2020-12-17T12:00:05","slug":"purity-today","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/purity-today\/","title":{"rendered":"Purity Today"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Everyone has a desire to be fully known. On FamilyLife Today, hosts Dave and Ann Wilson talk with author Carolyn Weber, about how purity relates to that topic in today&#8217;s world.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-12-17.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:30:53","filesize":"28.28M","filesize_raw":"29653490","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2906,2817,2822],"tags":[4299],"podcast_series":[8417],"cwp_profile":[8824],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-306623","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-becoming-a-christian","category-choosing-a-spouse","category-growing-in-your-faith","tag-faith","podcast_series-the-battle-for-purity-in-todays-world","cwp_profile-carolyn-weber","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/306623\/purity-today","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/306623\/purity-today","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"GF2Fp3sNNy\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/purity-today\/\">Purity Today<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/purity-today\/embed\/#?secret=GF2Fp3sNNy\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Purity Today&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"GF2Fp3sNNy\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-12-17.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-12-17.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> As a student at Oxford, Carolyn Weber was confronted with the claims of Christ. She correctly understood that to become a Christian would have an impact on more than just what she believed about God. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> When I became a Christian, and I started to think about relationships differently, I started to look back and think, \u201cOh, I wish someone had told me this.\u201d I didn\u2019t expect so much grief to wash in. Once I was a believer, and I was engaged to a non-believer, who I tried to share the gospel with and remained resistant, I realized: \u201cWow; I\u2019m either going to have to get married, unequally yoked; and what does that mean?\u201d or \u201cThis really needs to be reevaluated.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, December 17<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I\u2019m Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. The Christmas story\/the coming of Jesus\u2014it\u2019s a story of personal revolution in the lives of every person who believes. We\u2019ll hear about that from Carolyn Weber today. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I was on a radio interview a number of years ago; there were two of us being interviewed. The question was about the purity culture and whether the purity culture\u2014that\u2019s been connected to evangelicalism\u2014\u201cHas that been a negative thing or a positive thing? Should we be doing it differently?\u201d Of course, FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>has a resource called <em>Passport2Purity<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. We\u2019ve been encouraging moms and dads to be engaging with their children, young, about principles of purity when it comes to human sexuality. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember, in the conversation, we were talking about how some people were damaged by messages that were a part of the purity culture. They felt like there was a lot of shame attached to people who made mistakes as they were growing up. I thought, \u201cThat\u2019s all true, and we need to be careful that we\u2019re not Pharisees; but we can\u2019t throw the purity baby out with the bath water here.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; I agree, because we still need to talk about it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think for Dave and me, as we were going through seminary, and we looked back on our early years of dating before we knew each other, there were some things that we really regretted. We were talking about that; Dave decided to write his master\u2019s thesis on an interesting topic. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, we\u2019re going to go all the way back to that?! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I was thinking of that. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I haven\u2019t thought about that in 40 years; but yes, you know, most master\u2019s theses are about theology. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I go to my readers and say, \u201cCan I do a master\u2019s theses about the effects of premarital sex on marriage?\u201d They looked at me like, \u201cWhat?!\u201d \u201cI\u2019d love to study that, biblically and experientially, with people: \u2018What did that say?\u2019\u201d That\u2019s what I wrote it on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; and it was well-received? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; it was a very interesting study. The purity culture was actually trying to get at that: \u201cThere are consequences that you don\u2019t even know are going to be consequences in your life and on your future marriage.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> One of the reasons that we want to talk about this is because it\u2019s almost the default today that\u2014once you meet someone, and you\u2019re attracted to them, and you feel a connection, and you think, \u201cMaybe, we\u2019re in love,\u201d\u2014that the next thing you do is you have sex with that person. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think that\u2019s new, Bob. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But I\u2019ll tell you\u2014you watch movies or\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014television programs today\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; it\u2019s more blatant. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and that\u2019s where it goes. Nobody even raises a hand and says, \u201cOh, no; that\u2019s too bad,\u201d or\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cYou would be better off you didn\u2019t make that choice.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It seems it\u2019s more commonplace than ever before that couples are living together <em>before<\/em> they get married. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> We want to just step in here and say, \u201cHang on! Time out. The Bible still speaks to the fact that human thriving is connected to God\u2019s plan for sexuality, and God\u2019s plan for sexuality is that it happens inside a covenant relationship\/a covenant commitment\u2014marriage\u2014and outside of that, you have a good gift from God that is being wrongly used, and that sows seeds that are not going to bear a good harvest. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve got a friend, who is both friend and expert, Carolyn Weber, joining us. Carolyn, welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> Thank you so much for having me. I wouldn\u2019t identify myself as a sex-pert. [Laughter] I\u2019m certainly glad to join the conversation here. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Carolyn is an author\/a professor. She lives in Canada with her husband Kent and their four children. She\u2019s been a guest on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> before. We heard the story of her surprising conversion from being a secular feminist at Oxford to becoming a follower of Jesus in the first book that she wrote called <em>Surprised by Oxford<\/em>. Then, she wrote another beautiful book called <em>Holy Is the Day<\/em>. We\u2019ve talked about that; we talked about the miracle C-section that you almost did not survive. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd you\u2019ve just released a beautiful new memoir called <em>Sex and the City of God<\/em> that is a look back at your transition from how you viewed relationships prior to being a follower of Christ to how you started to view relationships, and particularly marriage, as a follower of Christ; how you met Kent; how he was instrumental in all of that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLet\u2019s go all the way back to when you were in high school. Your family of origin\u2014your mom and dad\u2014their marriage broke down; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> Yes, it did. I think I came from a family that many would recognize or identify with. I defined it in <em>Surprised by Oxford<\/em> as loving enough to get by but broken enough not to deserve God\u2019s attention. My parents were not believers. My home was not shaped by faith\u2014maybe a loose Catholicism by my grandparents\/kind of a European Catholicism\u2014but not really any sort of faith. My father had been a self-made man. He had been very successful in business, and he lost that business and went through some very difficult times. He ended up, actually, having a nervous breakdown as a result. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI would have defined myself, by high school, as definitely needing to be independent\/self-sufficient. I wasn\u2019t going to trust a father, let alone a heavenly Father\/eternal Father. I didn\u2019t really <em>know<\/em> any Christians. I was\u2014probably, like many\u2014I didn\u2019t really know Jesus at all. The Jesus I knew was this media-sort of presented-Jesus. I didn\u2019t really think religion was relevant to my life, so that\u2019s where I was at. By the time I arrived at Oxford, I was really quite determined to be self-sufficient and independent and in no need of a Savior. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> How did that worldview\/how did that way of thinking inform dating relationships?\u2014your view of human sexuality? I mean, in high school, you had boyfriends. You were engaged to be married when you went to Oxford; weren\u2019t you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> Yes; I mean, in high school, I think I was fairly busy. I was Student Council President, cheerleading captain, all those kinds of things. I <em>loved<\/em> high school: I was really focused on my grades, focused on wanting to go to university, focused on knowing that I needed a scholarship because, at that point, my family was very, very poor. My father was not in the picture at all; my mom was really struggling. I worked a lot of jobs in high school and in college. My mother also dealt with alcoholism, so a lot of the support of the family fell to me. I was really joyful and happy and enjoyed school, and all that sort of thing; but I was too busy for boys. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBy the time, I entered college. I started dating. I was actually quite seriously engaged, then, to my college sweetheart by the time I left for my graduate work. I would have defined myself as agnostic, because I couldn\u2019t disprove God. He would have defined himself as really quite overtly atheistic as was most of my circle of friends. Christianity wasn\u2019t really seen as intellectually acceptable or viable. It really wasn\u2019t even talked about. I didn\u2019t really know any Christians. That\u2019s pretty much the position I was at, so I was really entering Oxford without any worldview of Christianity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; as I listen to your background\/your story, I don\u2019t know if my wife Ann is sitting over there, going, \u201cOh my goodness! It\u2019s very similar to mine, even the fact that I went to the Oxford of the Midwest, Ball State University.\u201d [Laughter] I\u2019m kidding, but Ann actually found Christ at the university.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHere is my question, because my dad walked out when I was seven years old. My mom was an alcoholic; she was working tirelessly to provide. I grew up sort of as an agnostic\u2014sort of went to church\u2014but never really read the Bible myself until college. But I realize now, looking back\u2014and I wonder if you experienced the same thing\u2014I still had, even though I wouldn\u2019t have known it at the time, sort of a father-hunger\/a desire for a dad; I didn\u2019t have one. I looked at God as an absent father; you know? He is not around, just like my dad wasn\u2019t around; why would I be interested? Some of it, I now know, was living in denial; but there was definitely this sense\u2014from six\/seven years old all through my life\u2014I\u2019m longing for\/looking for a father\u2019s love. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDid you experience that, or is that part of your story? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> Absolutely; and you know, Dave, I\u2019m so grateful you would share that. I think that\u2019s an integral and deep part of who we are. When I studied the literature, there is what we call the monomyth, which is the great search for the Father; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> There is this deep archetypal search we have for the Father that really runs through so much of who we are. I really\/I would, in retrospect, identify this having this longing\/wanting to be close to our fathers\u2014there\u2019s\/when I did my minor in psych, there is a lot of research that shows that we shape our idea of eternal Father\/of a heavenly Father based on our relationships with our earthly fathers. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>Well, my earthly father was loving, and I knew he loved me; but he was intermittent, and difficult, and volatile, and untrustworthy when I was growing up. I think that that, in many ways, shaped that idea in exactly the same way. Yet, it doesn\u2019t negate the longing\u2014and that is what I wanted to explore in this book\u2014what C.S. Lewis called son-soaked. You know that longing\/that deep longing we have that can only be filled by God. We feel that ache, and we have twinges of that joy. It\u2019s sort of a foretaste of the heaven or the happiness that we are created for; but I felt that deep, deep within me. It\u2019s just I was also busy kicking against it, because we are fearful of it as well. It leaves us incredibly vulnerable. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, I know that I tried to <em>fill<\/em> that need and longing. Even though my dad was in the home, he was emotionally absent in many ways. I think I was trying to find that even through relationships with men or boys, even growing up, of just wanting validation\u2014wanting someone to see me\/someone to know me. Do you think that\u2019s pretty common for women? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> Oh, Ann, I think it is very common for <em>everyone<\/em>\u2014men and women. Women, perhaps, vocalize it more because that\u2019s what we do; but I think\/I think we all\u2014I haven\u2019t met a single person, who hasn\u2019t longed to be known. That\u2019s why I was so moved when I first read the Bible\u2014how much sense it made\u2014the notion of a fallen world made sense, the way that the story moved from Genesis to Revelation. There isn\u2019t anyone that doesn\u2019t long to be fully known, and how powerful a verb that is in the Bible, in terms, of marriage as well\u2014to be fully known. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s where\u2014you know, marriage, to me, felt like this mini-covenant\u2014because in a sense, it\u2019s the only relationship where we make a promise\/we have a covenant. We don\u2019t do that with any other relationship; but it\u2019s also where we\u2019re really, really intimately known. We all long for that, and nothing else can replace it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Carolyn, what <em>shaped<\/em> your thinking about sexuality as you were growing up? You didn\u2019t have a covenant marriage, where mom and dad are living happily together, to give you <em>that<\/em> picture. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> No. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So you are a teenager, faced with desire, and pressure, and interest, and questions; and you\u2019re making choices in that moment. What\u2019s informing those choices for you?\u2014and what\u2019s causing you to make the choices you made, as a young person, to get involved sexually with the boys you were dating in high school and college? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> Well, I think what it was\u2014it was like for many people in mainstream, even North America, right?\u2014I probably knew more divorced couples than I knew married couples. I think the big bell-ringer for me was when I became a Christian, and I started to think about relationships differently. I started to look back and think, \u201cOh, I wish someone had told me this, or this, or this; because this made sense. This made sense on things that hurt now or things that didn\u2019t work now.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOnce I was a believer, and I was engaged to a non-believer, who I tried to share the gospel with and remained resistant, I realized: \u201cWow; I\u2019m either going to have to get married, unequally yoked; and what does that mean?\u201d or \u201cThis really needs to be reevaluated; because if I am starting on this foot, that\u2019s something different. What\u2019s going to happen when I can\u2019t even pray with this person, or we don\u2019t even share the same worldview?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s where I was really drawn to Augustine with all of this, because I was really interested in his notion of the two cities\u2014that when things boiled down, there is the city of God and the city of man\u2014they are actually called to live in peace together, but they have two very different theological ends\u2014that makes all the difference. You have to decide which citizenship is yours; and that means, you answer to a whole different set of rules. Actually, for the Christian, the bar is higher; and it\u2019s different. There was more social responsibility: you are your brother\u2019s or your sister\u2019s keeper. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs I began to think about my life being\/my citizenship\u2014choosing to be\/wanting to be part of the city of God\u2014wanting to live in the eternal city, wanting to have the eternal inheritance and not a temporal, that begins to shift and color everything. Thinking about my responsibility to someone else in a relationship, too; that was, as well, ordering my loves, which is again what Augustine brings up. But I kept going back to that first commandment because, before I was a Christian, it really irked me. It really made me think God was heavy-handed and jealous\u2014sort of demanding my love but not really delivering, often, Himself\u2014I thought, \u201cWow; this Old Testament God seems like He has got a screw loose!\u2014sort of this stalker\u2014and He wants all of me\/wants all the other commandments based on this.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut as I became a believer, and even thought about something like what Augustine explores in the city of God, and when we organize our loves according to that first commandment\u2014that\u2019s the first commandment for a reason; everything else <em>does<\/em> fall into place. How, then, does that make me think about my relationships differently? I think that\u2019s kind of where the hummingbird hit the glass. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Take us back to your conversion experience, and you tell your fianc\u00e9 about how you are now following God. What\u2019s his reaction? I\u2019m sure that your lifestyle\/your views on premarital sex\u2014all of those were kind of shifting\u2014what was his reaction? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> His reaction was\u2014I think, like many\u2014\u201cOh, that\u2019s good! Great! I\u2019m happy for you. That\u2019s wonderful. You can do your thing, and I\u2019ll do mine. We can entirely get married. This is fine; this isn\u2019t an issue.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, I was in a situation: wow; I had known him for a long time\/many years. Our families were close, and it was looking like we were just going to be getting married. I could have just kind of continued to roll on into it, and hoped for the best, and think, \u201cWell, maybe, he\u2019ll warm up after we\u2019re married,\u201d or \u201cMaybe, he\u2019ll be open to this.\u201d It was actually, in many ways, more difficult. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You said, when you came to Christ, you found yourself thinking, \u201cI wish somebody had told me some of these things earlier.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019re talking to people today, who may need to hear some of those things about being unequally yoked, and what that can lead to, and why that\u2019s a problem, <em>or<\/em> about God\u2019s design for sexuality and why we ought to observe His ways and not just go with what the culture is telling us. If you were sitting down with that young person today, who is saying, \u201cOkay, so tell me what you think and why you believe these things,\u201d what would you tell them? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> What\u2019s a great metaphor? I mean, I <em>love<\/em> the Bible; you can\u2019t make this stuff up. It is <em>so<\/em> brilliant; you can\u2019t ever get to the bottom of it. As a literature person\u2014I just <em>love<\/em> it to the moon and back\u2014there is nothing I\u2019ve ever read that doesn\u2019t point more to the glory of God, secular or Christian. The Bible is just <em>amazing<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBeing yoked\/equally yoked is a <em>great<\/em> metaphor; because living on a farm, I understand it. When you put the yoke around the oxen, if it\u2019s not equal, they will go in circles. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> They\u2019ll go in circles until they go crazy, which is a <em>great<\/em> metaphor for marriage\u2014[Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> \u2014until you kind of get your yoke together. But if you are going into that, and it\u2019s not even equal to begin with\u2014wow!\u2014that\u2019s just a recipe for disaster. There is\/the Bible is such a blueprint\u2014not for perfection because we are in a fallen world\u2014but for righteousness\/for trying to become holier in God and helping your closest, most intimate person in that journey together in life doing the same and having that responsibility. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSometimes, if you\u2019re not married to that person, you still have a responsibility for being in relationship, thinking about the effect of your actions or your heart on them as well. I\u2019m a big believer in Proverbs 4:23: you know, guarding our hearts\/protecting our hearts, because everything else we do flows from it. I think especially, looking outside, on the inside at Christians, they think, \u201cOh, you know, purity and innocence\u2014isn\u2019t that ridiculous? And keeping your heart pure\u2014that\u2019s just so not relevant\u2014they are so na\u00efve.\u201d There is <em>nothing<\/em> na\u00efve about cultivating a pure heart; it takes a <em>lot<\/em> of work. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> And I think we give our kids so much information and no wisdom. When I\u2019ve been talking with students before, and I\u2019ve had <em>numerous<\/em> conversations along those lines, how can you be faithful in really thinking about what the Lord is trying to teach you through His Word and through His example as you\u2019re bringing your own deal into the relationship?\u2014because there is still going to be a lot of troubles, and struggles, and everything else; we\u2019re told that. We are also told that He is with us in that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut when you\u2019re purposely choosing to not equal the yoke\/when you\u2019re purposely choosing to defy\u2014and not be obedient, which is seeing in the dark; it\u2019s another form of faith\u2014sometimes, obedience is harder than sacrifice; it\u2019s a form of sacrifice\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> \u2014but it is always blessed\u2014that faithfulness is always blessed out into ways that we can\u2019t always see. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You know, I think, for moms and dads\/for all of us raising the next generation, we\u2019ve got to recognize that our kids are just like us, being inundated with cultural messages that are antithetical to what the Bible teaches. They are coming loud and often. Our mutual friend, Dr. Michael Easley, often says, \u201cDon\u2019t let the culture catechize you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTo fight against the culture, we have to make sure we are telling ourselves, and telling our children: \u201cHere is what God\u2019s Word says,\u201d and \u201cIt\u2019s going to be different than what you are seeing in the movies, what you\u2019re hearing from your friends\/from all of the cultural messages; but there is a way that leads to destruction, and there is a way that leads to life. God\u2019s way is the way that leads to life.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think, as Carolyn said here, it\u2019s a hard path sometimes. It requires much more of you than to go with the flow; but when we can stake out our position and say, \u201cYou know, I\u2019m going to do it God\u2019s way, there is thriving that comes with that.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and I think, as I listen to you, Carolyn, I know that, when I was in college\u2014again, at the Oxford of the Midwest\u2014I remember it was my first real encounter with the Word of God. I <em>never<\/em> really listened when I was in Sunday school. I <em>never<\/em> read it on my own. When I started to read\u2014and that\u2019s what you do so well in your book, Carolyn, is you lay out what the Word of God ends up\u2014the implications are about sex, about love, relationship. It\u2019s so beautifully done. I was just starting to encounter that, and I had <em>never<\/em> heard these thoughts. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cWho thinks like this?\u201d At first, I thought, \u201cThis is ridiculous! This is <em>not<\/em> thriving.\u201d Yet, now, just as you say in your book, it\u2019s like, \u201cThis is God\u2019s wisdom. If you will obey it, it will literally lead you to life.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is a memoir that I would be jealous to give to a college student\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and say, \u201cYou\u2019re going to delight in this story, written by somebody who is brilliant, somebody who is passionate for the things of God, somebody who understands that the gospel makes claims on our lives; and we have to, not just believe, but to obey.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCarolyn\u2019s book is called <em>Sex and the City of God<\/em>. We\u2019ve got copies of the book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can find information about the book, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com. You can order it from us, online, as well; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get a copy. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com. The phone number to call to get a copy of Carolyn Weber\u2019s book, <em>Sex and the City of God<\/em>, is 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, a week from today, we\u2019ll be preparing for our celebration of Christmas; it will be Christmas Eve. Two weeks from today, it will be New Year\u2019s Eve; and in just over two weeks, it will be 2021. I think all of us are thinking, \u201cI can\u2019t wait for the new year.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHere, at FamilyLife, we\u2019re hope the next two weeks will be busy and active. We\u2019re asking <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners to consider making as generous a yearend donation as you can possibly make for a couple of reasons. First of all, because there are a lot of friends of FamilyLife who, this year, can\u2019t make a donation because of the circumstances they find themselves in. So those who can\u2014we\u2019re asking you to be a little extra generous if you can to make up for those who can\u2019t. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe second reason we\u2019re asking is because we\u2019ve had friends of the ministry, who have agreed they will match every donation we receive in December, up to a total of \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t$2 million. Any donation you make\u2014$50\/$100\u2014whatever it is; it\u2019s going to be matched with another $50 or $100. That matching gift means your donation goes even further; and we\u2019ll send you, as a thank-you gift, when you make a donation, two resources: a copy of my book, <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em>, which is all about what the Bible says about love and how that applies in a marriage relationship; and we\u2019ll send you a flash drive that\u2019s got more than 100 <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> radio programs from the last 28 years\u2014programs with Dave and Ann Wilson, with Dennis and Barbara Rainey, many of the guests we\u2019ve had on through the years; programs about marriage, and parenting, and relationships. Some great stories that are included\u2014really, the best of the best. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe flash drive and the book are our way of saying, \u201cThank you for helping us take advantage of this matching-gift opportunity with a generous yearend donation.\u201d You can donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. We\u2019re grateful that you would consider it, and we do hope to hear from you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope you can join us, again, tomorrow when we\u2019re going to continue our conversation with Carolyn Weber about the impact that believing the gospel has on relationships\/our marriage. In fact, we\u2019re going to hear a <em>great<\/em> story tomorrow about Carolyn\u2019s first kiss from her husband-to-be, Kent. She\u2019ll share that story with us tomorrow. I hope you can tune in for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:30:53"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["28.28M"],"filesize_raw":["29653490"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-306623.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-306623.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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has a desire to be fully known. On FamilyLife Today, hosts Dave and Ann Wilson talk with author Carolyn Weber, about how purity relates to that topic in today's world.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-12-17.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> As a student at Oxford, Carolyn Weber was confronted with the claims of Christ. She correctly understood that to become a Christian would have an impact on more than just what she believed about God. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> When I became a Christian, and I started to think about relationships differently, I started to look back and think, \u201cOh, I wish someone had told me this.\u201d I didn\u2019t expect so much grief to wash in. Once I was a believer, and I was engaged to a non-believer, who I tried to share the gospel with and remained resistant, I realized: \u201cWow; I\u2019m either going to have to get married, unequally yoked; and what does that mean?\u201d or \u201cThis really needs to be reevaluated.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, December 17<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I\u2019m Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. The Christmas story\/the coming of Jesus\u2014it\u2019s a story of personal revolution in the lives of every person who believes. We\u2019ll hear about that from Carolyn Weber today. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I was on a radio interview a number of years ago; there were two of us being interviewed. The question was about the purity culture and whether the purity culture\u2014that\u2019s been connected to evangelicalism\u2014\u201cHas that been a negative thing or a positive thing? Should we be doing it differently?\u201d Of course, FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>has a resource called <em>Passport2Purity<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. We\u2019ve been encouraging moms and dads to be engaging with their children, young, about principles of purity when it comes to human sexuality. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember, in the conversation, we were talking about how some people were damaged by messages that were a part of the purity culture. They felt like there was a lot of shame attached to people who made mistakes as they were growing up. I thought, \u201cThat\u2019s all true, and we need to be careful that we\u2019re not Pharisees; but we can\u2019t throw the purity baby out with the bath water here.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; I agree, because we still need to talk about it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think for Dave and me, as we were going through seminary, and we looked back on our early years of dating before we knew each other, there were some things that we really regretted. We were talking about that; Dave decided to write his master\u2019s thesis on an interesting topic. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, we\u2019re going to go all the way back to that?! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I was thinking of that. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I haven\u2019t thought about that in 40 years; but yes, you know, most master\u2019s theses are about theology. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I go to my readers and say, \u201cCan I do a master\u2019s theses about the effects of premarital sex on marriage?\u201d They looked at me like, \u201cWhat?!\u201d \u201cI\u2019d love to study that, biblically and experientially, with people: \u2018What did that say?\u2019\u201d That\u2019s what I wrote it on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; and it was well-received? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; it was a very interesting study. The purity culture was actually trying to get at that: \u201cThere are consequences that you don\u2019t even know are going to be consequences in your life and on your future marriage.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> One of the reasons that we want to talk about this is because it\u2019s almost the default today that\u2014once you meet someone, and you\u2019re attracted to them, and you feel a connection, and you think, \u201cMaybe, we\u2019re in love,\u201d\u2014that the next thing you do is you have sex with that person. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think that\u2019s new, Bob. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But I\u2019ll tell you\u2014you watch movies or\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014television programs today\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; it\u2019s more blatant. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and that\u2019s where it goes. Nobody even raises a hand and says, \u201cOh, no; that\u2019s too bad,\u201d or\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cYou would be better off you didn\u2019t make that choice.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It seems it\u2019s more commonplace than ever before that couples are living together <em>before<\/em> they get married. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> We want to just step in here and say, \u201cHang on! Time out. The Bible still speaks to the fact that human thriving is connected to God\u2019s plan for sexuality, and God\u2019s plan for sexuality is that it happens inside a covenant relationship\/a covenant commitment\u2014marriage\u2014and outside of that, you have a good gift from God that is being wrongly used, and that sows seeds that are not going to bear a good harvest. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve got a friend, who is both friend and expert, Carolyn Weber, joining us. Carolyn, welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> Thank you so much for having me. I wouldn\u2019t identify myself as a sex-pert. [Laughter] I\u2019m certainly glad to join the conversation here. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Carolyn is an author\/a professor. She lives in Canada with her husband Kent and their four children. She\u2019s been a guest on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> before. We heard the story of her surprising conversion from being a secular feminist at Oxford to becoming a follower of Jesus in the first book that she wrote called <em>Surprised by Oxford<\/em>. Then, she wrote another beautiful book called <em>Holy Is the Day<\/em>. We\u2019ve talked about that; we talked about the miracle C-section that you almost did not survive. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd you\u2019ve just released a beautiful new memoir called <em>Sex and the City of God<\/em> that is a look back at your transition from how you viewed relationships prior to being a follower of Christ to how you started to view relationships, and particularly marriage, as a follower of Christ; how you met Kent; how he was instrumental in all of that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLet\u2019s go all the way back to when you were in high school. Your family of origin\u2014your mom and dad\u2014their marriage broke down; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> Yes, it did. I think I came from a family that many would recognize or identify with. I defined it in <em>Surprised by Oxford<\/em> as loving enough to get by but broken enough not to deserve God\u2019s attention. My parents were not believers. My home was not shaped by faith\u2014maybe a loose Catholicism by my grandparents\/kind of a European Catholicism\u2014but not really any sort of faith. My father had been a self-made man. He had been very successful in business, and he lost that business and went through some very difficult times. He ended up, actually, having a nervous breakdown as a result. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI would have defined myself, by high school, as definitely needing to be independent\/self-sufficient. I wasn\u2019t going to trust a father, let alone a heavenly Father\/eternal Father. I didn\u2019t really <em>know<\/em> any Christians. I was\u2014probably, like many\u2014I didn\u2019t really know Jesus at all. The Jesus I knew was this media-sort of presented-Jesus. I didn\u2019t really think religion was relevant to my life, so that\u2019s where I was at. By the time I arrived at Oxford, I was really quite determined to be self-sufficient and independent and in no need of a Savior. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> How did that worldview\/how did that way of thinking inform dating relationships?\u2014your view of human sexuality? I mean, in high school, you had boyfriends. You were engaged to be married when you went to Oxford; weren\u2019t you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> Yes; I mean, in high school, I think I was fairly busy. I was Student Council President, cheerleading captain, all those kinds of things. I <em>loved<\/em> high school: I was really focused on my grades, focused on wanting to go to university, focused on knowing that I needed a scholarship because, at that point, my family was very, very poor. My father was not in the picture at all; my mom was really struggling. I worked a lot of jobs in high school and in college. My mother also dealt with alcoholism, so a lot of the support of the family fell to me. I was really joyful and happy and enjoyed school, and all that sort of thing; but I was too busy for boys. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBy the time, I entered college. I started dating. I was actually quite seriously engaged, then, to my college sweetheart by the time I left for my graduate work. I would have defined myself as agnostic, because I couldn\u2019t disprove God. He would have defined himself as really quite overtly atheistic as was most of my circle of friends. Christianity wasn\u2019t really seen as intellectually acceptable or viable. It really wasn\u2019t even talked about. I didn\u2019t really know any Christians. That\u2019s pretty much the position I was at, so I was really entering Oxford without any worldview of Christianity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; as I listen to your background\/your story, I don\u2019t know if my wife Ann is sitting over there, going, \u201cOh my goodness! It\u2019s very similar to mine, even the fact that I went to the Oxford of the Midwest, Ball State University.\u201d [Laughter] I\u2019m kidding, but Ann actually found Christ at the university.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHere is my question, because my dad walked out when I was seven years old. My mom was an alcoholic; she was working tirelessly to provide. I grew up sort of as an agnostic\u2014sort of went to church\u2014but never really read the Bible myself until college. But I realize now, looking back\u2014and I wonder if you experienced the same thing\u2014I still had, even though I wouldn\u2019t have known it at the time, sort of a father-hunger\/a desire for a dad; I didn\u2019t have one. I looked at God as an absent father; you know? He is not around, just like my dad wasn\u2019t around; why would I be interested? Some of it, I now know, was living in denial; but there was definitely this sense\u2014from six\/seven years old all through my life\u2014I\u2019m longing for\/looking for a father\u2019s love. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDid you experience that, or is that part of your story? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> Absolutely; and you know, Dave, I\u2019m so grateful you would share that. I think that\u2019s an integral and deep part of who we are. When I studied the literature, there is what we call the monomyth, which is the great search for the Father; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> There is this deep archetypal search we have for the Father that really runs through so much of who we are. I really\/I would, in retrospect, identify this having this longing\/wanting to be close to our fathers\u2014there\u2019s\/when I did my minor in psych, there is a lot of research that shows that we shape our idea of eternal Father\/of a heavenly Father based on our relationships with our earthly fathers. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>Well, my earthly father was loving, and I knew he loved me; but he was intermittent, and difficult, and volatile, and untrustworthy when I was growing up. I think that that, in many ways, shaped that idea in exactly the same way. Yet, it doesn\u2019t negate the longing\u2014and that is what I wanted to explore in this book\u2014what C.S. Lewis called son-soaked. You know that longing\/that deep longing we have that can only be filled by God. We feel that ache, and we have twinges of that joy. It\u2019s sort of a foretaste of the heaven or the happiness that we are created for; but I felt that deep, deep within me. It\u2019s just I was also busy kicking against it, because we are fearful of it as well. It leaves us incredibly vulnerable. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, I know that I tried to <em>fill<\/em> that need and longing. Even though my dad was in the home, he was emotionally absent in many ways. I think I was trying to find that even through relationships with men or boys, even growing up, of just wanting validation\u2014wanting someone to see me\/someone to know me. Do you think that\u2019s pretty common for women? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> Oh, Ann, I think it is very common for <em>everyone<\/em>\u2014men and women. Women, perhaps, vocalize it more because that\u2019s what we do; but I think\/I think we all\u2014I haven\u2019t met a single person, who hasn\u2019t longed to be known. That\u2019s why I was so moved when I first read the Bible\u2014how much sense it made\u2014the notion of a fallen world made sense, the way that the story moved from Genesis to Revelation. There isn\u2019t anyone that doesn\u2019t long to be fully known, and how powerful a verb that is in the Bible, in terms, of marriage as well\u2014to be fully known. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s where\u2014you know, marriage, to me, felt like this mini-covenant\u2014because in a sense, it\u2019s the only relationship where we make a promise\/we have a covenant. We don\u2019t do that with any other relationship; but it\u2019s also where we\u2019re really, really intimately known. We all long for that, and nothing else can replace it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Carolyn, what <em>shaped<\/em> your thinking about sexuality as you were growing up? You didn\u2019t have a covenant marriage, where mom and dad are living happily together, to give you <em>that<\/em> picture. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> No. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So you are a teenager, faced with desire, and pressure, and interest, and questions; and you\u2019re making choices in that moment. What\u2019s informing those choices for you?\u2014and what\u2019s causing you to make the choices you made, as a young person, to get involved sexually with the boys you were dating in high school and college? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> Well, I think what it was\u2014it was like for many people in mainstream, even North America, right?\u2014I probably knew more divorced couples than I knew married couples. I think the big bell-ringer for me was when I became a Christian, and I started to think about relationships differently. I started to look back and think, \u201cOh, I wish someone had told me this, or this, or this; because this made sense. This made sense on things that hurt now or things that didn\u2019t work now.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOnce I was a believer, and I was engaged to a non-believer, who I tried to share the gospel with and remained resistant, I realized: \u201cWow; I\u2019m either going to have to get married, unequally yoked; and what does that mean?\u201d or \u201cThis really needs to be reevaluated; because if I am starting on this foot, that\u2019s something different. What\u2019s going to happen when I can\u2019t even pray with this person, or we don\u2019t even share the same worldview?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s where I was really drawn to Augustine with all of this, because I was really interested in his notion of the two cities\u2014that when things boiled down, there is the city of God and the city of man\u2014they are actually called to live in peace together, but they have two very different theological ends\u2014that makes all the difference. You have to decide which citizenship is yours; and that means, you answer to a whole different set of rules. Actually, for the Christian, the bar is higher; and it\u2019s different. There was more social responsibility: you are your brother\u2019s or your sister\u2019s keeper. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs I began to think about my life being\/my citizenship\u2014choosing to be\/wanting to be part of the city of God\u2014wanting to live in the eternal city, wanting to have the eternal inheritance and not a temporal, that begins to shift and color everything. Thinking about my responsibility to someone else in a relationship, too; that was, as well, ordering my loves, which is again what Augustine brings up. But I kept going back to that first commandment because, before I was a Christian, it really irked me. It really made me think God was heavy-handed and jealous\u2014sort of demanding my love but not really delivering, often, Himself\u2014I thought, \u201cWow; this Old Testament God seems like He has got a screw loose!\u2014sort of this stalker\u2014and He wants all of me\/wants all the other commandments based on this.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut as I became a believer, and even thought about something like what Augustine explores in the city of God, and when we organize our loves according to that first commandment\u2014that\u2019s the first commandment for a reason; everything else <em>does<\/em> fall into place. How, then, does that make me think about my relationships differently? I think that\u2019s kind of where the hummingbird hit the glass. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Take us back to your conversion experience, and you tell your fianc\u00e9 about how you are now following God. What\u2019s his reaction? I\u2019m sure that your lifestyle\/your views on premarital sex\u2014all of those were kind of shifting\u2014what was his reaction? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> His reaction was\u2014I think, like many\u2014\u201cOh, that\u2019s good! Great! I\u2019m happy for you. That\u2019s wonderful. You can do your thing, and I\u2019ll do mine. We can entirely get married. This is fine; this isn\u2019t an issue.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, I was in a situation: wow; I had known him for a long time\/many years. Our families were close, and it was looking like we were just going to be getting married. I could have just kind of continued to roll on into it, and hoped for the best, and think, \u201cWell, maybe, he\u2019ll warm up after we\u2019re married,\u201d or \u201cMaybe, he\u2019ll be open to this.\u201d It was actually, in many ways, more difficult. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You said, when you came to Christ, you found yourself thinking, \u201cI wish somebody had told me some of these things earlier.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019re talking to people today, who may need to hear some of those things about being unequally yoked, and what that can lead to, and why that\u2019s a problem, <em>or<\/em> about God\u2019s design for sexuality and why we ought to observe His ways and not just go with what the culture is telling us. If you were sitting down with that young person today, who is saying, \u201cOkay, so tell me what you think and why you believe these things,\u201d what would you tell them? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> What\u2019s a great metaphor? I mean, I <em>love<\/em> the Bible; you can\u2019t make this stuff up. It is <em>so<\/em> brilliant; you can\u2019t ever get to the bottom of it. As a literature person\u2014I just <em>love<\/em> it to the moon and back\u2014there is nothing I\u2019ve ever read that doesn\u2019t point more to the glory of God, secular or Christian. The Bible is just <em>amazing<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBeing yoked\/equally yoked is a <em>great<\/em> metaphor; because living on a farm, I understand it. When you put the yoke around the oxen, if it\u2019s not equal, they will go in circles. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> They\u2019ll go in circles until they go crazy, which is a <em>great<\/em> metaphor for marriage\u2014[Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> \u2014until you kind of get your yoke together. But if you are going into that, and it\u2019s not even equal to begin with\u2014wow!\u2014that\u2019s just a recipe for disaster. There is\/the Bible is such a blueprint\u2014not for perfection because we are in a fallen world\u2014but for righteousness\/for trying to become holier in God and helping your closest, most intimate person in that journey together in life doing the same and having that responsibility. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSometimes, if you\u2019re not married to that person, you still have a responsibility for being in relationship, thinking about the effect of your actions or your heart on them as well. I\u2019m a big believer in Proverbs 4:23: you know, guarding our hearts\/protecting our hearts, because everything else we do flows from it. I think especially, looking outside, on the inside at Christians, they think, \u201cOh, you know, purity and innocence\u2014isn\u2019t that ridiculous? And keeping your heart pure\u2014that\u2019s just so not relevant\u2014they are so na\u00efve.\u201d There is <em>nothing<\/em> na\u00efve about cultivating a pure heart; it takes a <em>lot<\/em> of work. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> And I think we give our kids so much information and no wisdom. When I\u2019ve been talking with students before, and I\u2019ve had <em>numerous<\/em> conversations along those lines, how can you be faithful in really thinking about what the Lord is trying to teach you through His Word and through His example as you\u2019re bringing your own deal into the relationship?\u2014because there is still going to be a lot of troubles, and struggles, and everything else; we\u2019re told that. We are also told that He is with us in that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut when you\u2019re purposely choosing to not equal the yoke\/when you\u2019re purposely choosing to defy\u2014and not be obedient, which is seeing in the dark; it\u2019s another form of faith\u2014sometimes, obedience is harder than sacrifice; it\u2019s a form of sacrifice\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn:<\/strong> \u2014but it is always blessed\u2014that faithfulness is always blessed out into ways that we can\u2019t always see. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You know, I think, for moms and dads\/for all of us raising the next generation, we\u2019ve got to recognize that our kids are just like us, being inundated with cultural messages that are antithetical to what the Bible teaches. They are coming loud and often. Our mutual friend, Dr. Michael Easley, often says, \u201cDon\u2019t let the culture catechize you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTo fight against the culture, we have to make sure we are telling ourselves, and telling our children: \u201cHere is what God\u2019s Word says,\u201d and \u201cIt\u2019s going to be different than what you are seeing in the movies, what you\u2019re hearing from your friends\/from all of the cultural messages; but there is a way that leads to destruction, and there is a way that leads to life. God\u2019s way is the way that leads to life.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think, as Carolyn said here, it\u2019s a hard path sometimes. It requires much more of you than to go with the flow; but when we can stake out our position and say, \u201cYou know, I\u2019m going to do it God\u2019s way, there is thriving that comes with that.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and I think, as I listen to you, Carolyn, I know that, when I was in college\u2014again, at the Oxford of the Midwest\u2014I remember it was my first real encounter with the Word of God. I <em>never<\/em> really listened when I was in Sunday school. I <em>never<\/em> read it on my own. When I started to read\u2014and that\u2019s what you do so well in your book, Carolyn, is you lay out what the Word of God ends up\u2014the implications are about sex, about love, relationship. It\u2019s so beautifully done. I was just starting to encounter that, and I had <em>never<\/em> heard these thoughts. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cWho thinks like this?\u201d At first, I thought, \u201cThis is ridiculous! This is <em>not<\/em> thriving.\u201d Yet, now, just as you say in your book, it\u2019s like, \u201cThis is God\u2019s wisdom. If you will obey it, it will literally lead you to life.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is a memoir that I would be jealous to give to a college student\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and say, \u201cYou\u2019re going to delight in this story, written by somebody who is brilliant, somebody who is passionate for the things of God, somebody who understands that the gospel makes claims on our lives; and we have to, not just believe, but to obey.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCarolyn\u2019s book is called <em>Sex and the City of God<\/em>. We\u2019ve got copies of the book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can find information about the book, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com. You can order it from us, online, as well; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get a copy. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com. The phone number to call to get a copy of Carolyn Weber\u2019s book, <em>Sex and the City of God<\/em>, is 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, a week from today, we\u2019ll be preparing for our celebration of Christmas; it will be Christmas Eve. Two weeks from today, it will be New Year\u2019s Eve; and in just over two weeks, it will be 2021. I think all of us are thinking, \u201cI can\u2019t wait for the new year.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHere, at FamilyLife, we\u2019re hope the next two weeks will be busy and active. We\u2019re asking <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners to consider making as generous a yearend donation as you can possibly make for a couple of reasons. First of all, because there are a lot of friends of FamilyLife who, this year, can\u2019t make a donation because of the circumstances they find themselves in. So those who can\u2014we\u2019re asking you to be a little extra generous if you can to make up for those who can\u2019t. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe second reason we\u2019re asking is because we\u2019ve had friends of the ministry, who have agreed they will match every donation we receive in December, up to a total of \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t$2 million. Any donation you make\u2014$50\/$100\u2014whatever it is; it\u2019s going to be matched with another $50 or $100. That matching gift means your donation goes even further; and we\u2019ll send you, as a thank-you gift, when you make a donation, two resources: a copy of my book, <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em>, which is all about what the Bible says about love and how that applies in a marriage relationship; and we\u2019ll send you a flash drive that\u2019s got more than 100 <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> radio programs from the last 28 years\u2014programs with Dave and Ann Wilson, with Dennis and Barbara Rainey, many of the guests we\u2019ve had on through the years; programs about marriage, and parenting, and relationships. Some great stories that are included\u2014really, the best of the best. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe flash drive and the book are our way of saying, \u201cThank you for helping us take advantage of this matching-gift opportunity with a generous yearend donation.\u201d You can donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. We\u2019re grateful that you would consider it, and we do hope to hear from you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope you can join us, again, tomorrow when we\u2019re going to continue our conversation with Carolyn Weber about the impact that believing the gospel has on relationships\/our marriage. In fact, we\u2019re going to hear a <em>great<\/em> story tomorrow about Carolyn\u2019s first kiss from her husband-to-be, Kent. She\u2019ll share that story with us tomorrow. I hope you can tune in for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. 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