{"id":306473,"date":"2020-10-13T07:00:05","date_gmt":"2020-10-13T11:00:05","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/turning-toward-others\/"},"modified":"2020-10-13T07:00:05","modified_gmt":"2020-10-13T11:00:05","slug":"turning-toward-others","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/turning-toward-others\/","title":{"rendered":"Turning Toward Others"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Tired of self-focused, consumer-centric faith? Turn away from &#8220;me-ology,&#8221; says Jen Oshman, and learn the powerful theology of saying, &#8220;Enough about me!&#8221; You are not the sum of your sin or of your good deeds, but you are God&#8217;s workmanship in Christ!<br \/>\nShow Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tFind resources from this podcast at https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=95.<br \/>\n \tCheck out all that&#8217;s available on the FamilyLife Podcast Network.\u00a0 https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/<br \/>\n \tHave the FamilyLife Today\u00ae podcast and resources helped you?\u00a0 Consider becoming a Legacy Partner, a monthly supporter of FamilyLife.\u00a0https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/legacy<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Tired of self-focused, consumer-centric faith? Turn away from &#8220;me-ology,&#8221; says Jen Oshman, and learn the powerful theology of saying, &#8220;Enough about me!&#8221;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-10-13.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:28:47","filesize":"26.36M","filesize_raw":"27635231","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2822,2827,2093],"tags":[4920],"podcast_series":[8398],"cwp_profile":[9663],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-306473","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growing-in-your-faith","category-repentance","category-women","tag-womanhood","podcast_series-enough-about-me","cwp_profile-jen-oshman","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/306473\/turning-toward-others","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/306473\/turning-toward-others","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"fPV0vc1BNp\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/turning-toward-others\/\">Turning Toward Others<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/turning-toward-others\/embed\/#?secret=fPV0vc1BNp\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Turning Toward Others&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"fPV0vc1BNp\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-10-13.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-10-13.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Jesus said, \u201cIf anyone would be My follower, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me.\u201d Jen Oshman thinks we\u2019re not talking about death to self enough.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> We can die in a million ways: it can be going across the street and loving our literal neighbor; it can be going across the city; it can be going across the ocean; it can be going across the bedroom to extend forgiveness to a spouse or to a child; it can be returning a blessing for a cursing in the workplace, in the church, wherever; but death to self is required for disciples of Jesus.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, October 13<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I\u2019m Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. How would your marriage, your family\u2014all of your relationships for that matter\u2014how would they look different if you were committed to the idea of dying to self? We\u2019ll explore that today with Jen Oshman. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. This was many years ago\u2014John Piper was a guest on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>\u2014and he was telling us about how, around their house, he would, from time to time, become whiny. There would be things that would\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It\u2019s a man thing. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Honey, aren\u2019t you glad you\u2019re\u2014she just threw me under the\u2014she threw <em>you<\/em> under the bus too! [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, not you; sorry.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I was just going to say, \u201cAren\u2019t you glad you\u2019re not married to a whiner?\u201d; but I guess that didn\u2019t work.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> He would grumble or complain about things. He said, \u201cMy family will break out in song when I do that.\u201d He said, \u201cThere\u2019s this worship chorus we sing at our church that\u2014[singing] \u2018It\u2019s all about You, Jesus\u2019; but they would change it to [singing] \u2018It\u2019s all about you, Johnny.\u2019\u201d [Laughter] They sang about him. I thought, \u201cYou could just pop out \u2018Johnny\u2019 and put in \u2018Bobby\u2019 or \u2018Davy\u2019\u2014or any of us for that matter\u2014because there are times in life, where we get so fixated\/so focused on self, that we become unbearable to the people around us.\u201d\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> That\u2019s true.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> In some ways, the culture celebrates it.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We\u2019re supposed to do that; right?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; we all have a voice now. We need to let our voice be heard\u2014that\u2019s what we\u2019re hearing more and more.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014until you come across a book like <em>Enough about Me<\/em>. [Laughter] Then you go, \u201cMaybe there is some correction that needs to happen here.\u201d\n\nJen Oshman is joining us, again, on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Welcome back.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Thanks so much.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Jen is the author of that book, <em>Enough about Me<\/em>. She is a mom of four daughters, living in Parker, Colorado, with her husband, who is a pastor at a local church there. Jen and her husband spent 15 years on the mission field.\n\nTell us about how you guys got to the mission field\/what you were doing there. Tell us about that whole chapter of your life.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Sure; well, when Mark and I got married, we both had a vision and a passion for the nations. We wanted to go overseas; it was something that we were unified in from day one. We went with Cadence International, which is a ministry to American military members overseas; and he pastored in Okinawa, Japan. Everybody that we ministered to was American military members but living in Japan. It was really sweet to be part of a local American church but on the other side of the world.\n\nIt was a community that was obviously\u2014because they were military members\u2014they were living for a bigger purpose and a bigger passion than sort of the average American dream or the average American life. They were people, who were excited about the gospel\/excited about the mission and vision of the church, and people who needed\u2014who were outside of the normal American life such that they were asking bigger questions. They were asking more about the meaning of life and what\u2019s after life. It was a fruitful ministry; it was a <em>blast<\/em>. I mean, they were sort of like the best years of our life; we loved it.\n\nBut we also had a burden, and a desire, and just a passion to see the name of Christ exalted in the Czech Republic. It\u2019s one of the most atheist nations on the planet\u2014less than one half of one percent of Czech people know Jesus as their Lord and Savior\u2014so a very spiritually dark context. That was something that just sort of hung over us all of our years there in Japan. We finally made the move and partnered with a local Czech church and went about church planting in Brno, Czech Republic.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> That dream was cut short in God\u2019s providence, and kindness, and sovereignty\u2014even still, it feels a little bit painful to talk about it\u2014we envisioned ourselves there forever and ever. My father was languishing with Alzheimer\u2019s and dementia; we came back to take care of him. That\u2019s what brought us back to Colorado, where we\u2019re from.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What was that like, Jen, coming back? Was it a culture shock?\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Yes; it really was. I mean, we had lived overseas a long time. We had taken a newborn with us, and then everybody else was born in Asia. It was disorienting for our kids. America was another foreign country for them, and it was disorienting for us because\u2014and I will\/just to confess this\u2014like a lot of our identity was wrapped up in being overseas missionaries: \u201cIf we\u2019re not on the mission field, then who are we? What value do we bring to the table, in terms of the church and the kingdom, and just being human beings?\u201d\n\nIt was hard. There were just some normal, you know, growth that had to take place; culture shock that had to take place; but also some refining and pruning of the Lord, just revealing to us that we are His; we belong to Him; and it\u2019s not about what we can conjure up and produce on our own. It\u2019s about the story that He is writing that He is invited us to be a part of.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The heart of your book, <em>Enough about Me<\/em>, is that we have to understand that our identity exists apart from our activity\u2014\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014in order for our activity to make sense. Part of the challenge all of us run into is: \u201cWho are we apart from our activity?\u201d\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The things that define us in everyday life are the things we do and the things we\u2019re known for. Yet, if we don\u2019t have a solid understanding of who we are, apart from those things\u2014as children of God, beloved of God, accepted by God\u2014then all of the stuff we do, if that\u2019s what defines us\u2014God can start to prune that, take it away, take you out of the Czech Republic, put you somewhere else, and say, \u201cNow, who are you?\u201d\u2014right?\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Yes, yes; that\u2019s a good word. I think we are experiencing that in the middle of this coronavirus pandemic here in 2020. All of us do identify so strongly with the office that we go to in the morning, the teams that we are on, the clubs that we are a part of, the activities that we do\u2014that\u2019s who we <em>are<\/em>. Those have been stripped away in 2020. That has been painful but a blessing\u2014also a gift of God and a gift of grace\u2014as we are reminded: \u201cNo; I am not my activities; I am not what I produce. I am a child of God; I am His vessel to do with as He pleases.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I want to know what you think about this\u2014and really what everybody thinks about this\u2014because as I\u2019ve been pondering your book and thinking about this subject, I\u2019m wondering, \u201cDo men and women\/do we do our sense of self differently?\u201d If a woman is fixating on her identity and a man is fixating on his identity\u2014and thinking about it wrongly\u2014are our sin patterns going to be different? I know we\u2019re talking, as my son likes to say, \u201cgenderalities\u201d\u2014these are gender-based generalities\u2014but is our self-focus a different kind of self-focus, maybe?\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019m thinking of the Garden, where Adam\u2019s passivity is matched with Eve\u2019s\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014controlling.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014her controlling\/her susceptibility to temptation. Was this sin achievement?\u2014I mean, was she reaching out, thinking, \u201cOoh, I would like to be like God\u201d? Was Adam like, \u201cOkay; whatever\u201d?\u2014you know? I\u2019m just trying to\u2014I don\u2019t know that I have an answer\u2014maybe, our listeners will write us and tell us what the right answer is on all of this.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I think we all know the heart\u2014or the center\/the foundation\u2014of it is sin or selfishness. I mean, enough of me is a selfless: \u201cI\u2019m not going to focus on me anymore.\u201d\n\nI remember\u2014it just came to my mind\u2014I got to play in this little golf charity outing, years ago. A former Detroit Lion player sent me a text\u2014it\u2019s classic for me\u2014that said: \u201cHey, would you like to play in my golf outing?\u201d\u2014such and such a date. \u201cWe\u2019d love to have you come.\u201d My first response to the text\u2014and he should have known this was coming\u2014\u201cWell, yes; I\u2019m free that day, but how much is it?\u201d\u2014because I\u2019m always about\u2014\u201cHow much money is this going to cost me?\u201d\u2014even though it\u2019s going to charity; right?\n\nDrew texts back right away; he goes, \u201cOh, you\u2019ll be a celebrity; celebrities are free.\u201d I text back: \u201cYou and I both know I\u2019m not a celebrity. What are you talking about?\u201d [Laughter] He goes, \u201cWell, here is how it works. A foursome pays $1,000 to play with a celebrity, and that\u2019s how we raise the money.\u201d He said, \u201cI\u2019m making you a celebrity, because you won\u2019t come unless we do.\u201d [Laughter] Long story short\u2014I\u2019m in; right?\n\nI get to the golf course, and I\u2019m looking around. There are real celebrities there. I\u2019m like, \u201cOh boy! This is not going to go good when my foursome realizes it\u2019s me.\u201d [Laughter] They give you\u2014you go to this group\u2014so I walk up, and it was two couples; they weren\u2019t married. Their spouses, actually, were working the tournament, but they were paired together. I walk up; I go, \u201cHey, I\u2019m Dave Wilson. What\u2019s your name?\u201d They said their name. Then they all look at me and go, \u201cUh, why\u2019d you introduce yourself?\u201d\n\nI go, \u201cOh, I didn\u2019t tell you; I\u2019m your celebrity.\u201d They go, \u201cWho are <em>you<\/em>?\u201d I go, \u201cOh, well, I\u2019m the chaplain of the Detroit Lions.\u201d This dude looks at me, and he goes, \u201cOh great! [Laughter] So that means we can\u2019t cuss, and we can\u2019t drink,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s what he said. [Laughter] I go, \u201cWell, it gets better; I\u2019m not a good golfer either.\u201d [Laughter]\n\nHere\u2019s why I\u2019m telling you this story. We go out golfing, and they are great people; right? We\u2019re on like the tenth hole; and all of a sudden, this wife that was in the other cart walks up to me\u2014we\u2019re on the putting green\u2014she goes, \u201cHey, John, here says you\u2019re a marriage expert.\u201d I go, \u201cWhat?\u201d \u201cHe says you\u2019re writing a book on marriage, and you and your wife speak around the country on marriage; so you\u2019re a marriage expert.\u201d I go, \u201cI\u2019m no marriage expert.\u201d She goes like this, \u201cWell, I\u2019ve got a marriage question.\u201d I go, \u201cWhat\u2019s that?\u201d She goes, \u201cI\u2019m in my second marriage; what\u2019s the problem with marriage?\u201d\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Whoa.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m looking at her, like, \u201cOh boy!\u201d And she meant it.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019ll never forget it\u2014it just came to my mind\u2014I go, \u201cOh, well, that\u2019s easy. I can answer that with one word.\u201d She goes, \u201cReally?! What\u2019s that?\u201d This is classic; I\u2019ll never forget this\u2014I go, \u201cThat word would be selfishness.\u201d She goes, \u201cYou are so right! My first husband was so selfish!\u201d\u2014[Laughter]\u2014that\u2019s what she said. I mean, it was like you couldn\u2019t have written this; right?\n\nI just look at her, and I go, \u201cI\u2019m not talking about your first husband.\u201d I went like this\u2014I said, \u201cI\u2019m talking about <em>you<\/em>, and I\u2019m talking about <em>me<\/em>.\u201d She said to me, \u201cOh!\u201d Then, later, she said, \u201cI\u2019ve never heard a pastor say he was selfish. You said you were selfish.\u201d I go, \u201cThat\u2019s the <em>problem<\/em>.\u201d\n\nI mean, even the answer\u2014\u201cIs a woman or a man different?\u201d\u2014\u201cYes; we\u2019re different, I think, in the way it plays out; but at the heart of it, we think about <em>me<\/em> because we\u2019re selfish; we\u2019re sinners.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cOf course, we\u2019re going to focus on that.\u201d\n\nThen if we look into <em>me<\/em> to find the answer for me, we\u2019re never going to find it. That\u2019s why your book is so true. It\u2019s like, \u201cWe have to go vertical and say, \u2018What does He say?\u2019\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is why you, in your book say, \u201cUltimately, the solution to this me-fixation that we have is a gospel realignment\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201can understanding of the gospel that goes deeper than most of the superficial understandings of the gospel that we\u2019re experiencing in contemporary American Christianity.\u201d\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Right; right. What I\u2019m seeing across the church in the United States\u2014let me be clear: I love the church\u2014I have been a missionary for two decades, in women\u2019s ministry; I\u2019m a pastor\u2019s wife\/we planted a church. I love the bride of Christ, and I don\u2019t mean to knock her; but I do mean to critique her; and that is we have been very self-focused in our churches as well. We\u2019ve sort of come up with consumer-centric faith: \u201cHow can we fill the pews?\u201d \u201cHow can we build a bigger building?\u201d \u201cHow can we pay the pastor\u2019s salary?\u201d\n\nWe\u2019re hearing sermons; we\u2019re hearing lessons; we\u2019re in Bible studies; we\u2019re in groups; we\u2019re in fellowships that are driving this consumer train\/that are building this sort of institution of the church rather than the fellowship, and the body, and the family that I think Jesus intended in the 1<sup>st<\/sup> century.\n\nMy desire is that we\u2014as a church, and we, as individuals\u2014would take our eyes off ourselves\u2014stop seeking to build our institutions\/stop seeking to build our own little kingdom\u2014and we would do what Jesus said, which is: \u201cTake up your cross and follow Me.\u201d Whoever would follow Jesus would, then, come and die. That is all over the Word of God, and we don\u2019t talk about it very often. That is\u2014the subtitle of my book is <em>Find Lasting Joy in the Age of Self<\/em>\u2014that counterintuitively\u2014counter to our flesh\/counter to our culture\u2014that is where joy is found\u2014is when we die to ourselves.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> What does that look like?\u2014as you say, very specifically, in the book, \u201cLasting joy is found in picking up your cross.\u201d Explain that; what does that mean?\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Yes; the Scriptures are full of commands, and admonishments, and invitations, and encouragements to die to ourselves. It can be a spectrum. We can\u2019t be putting pastors and missionaries on some sort of pedestal and saying, \u201cThey\u2019re really dying to themselves.\u201d That\u2019s not true; in Acts 17, the Lord is clear that He has put us in the times and places that we are for a reason. It is so that we would seek Him and find Him.\n\nI\u2019m in America right now for a reason, and so are you. Everybody listening\u2014wherever they are all over the world\u2014it\u2019s not a mistake that the Lord would have each of the listeners where they are in 2020 in this moment so that we\u2019ll seek God and find Him. We can die in a million ways: it could be going across the street and loving our literal neighbor; it can be going across the city; it could be going across the ocean; it could be going across the bedroom to extend forgiveness to a spouse or to a child; but death to self is required for disciples of Jesus.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> When I wrote my book, <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em>, one of the discoveries for me\/one of the things that I had to really wrap my head around is that sacrificial, self-giving love is the key to the kind of fulfilling joy-filled relationship that God designs for us. That\u2019s the counterintuitive, paradoxical nature of the gospel\u2014that the first are last and the last are first\u2014that everything is upside down: \u201cIf you want to be great, be a servant,\u201d \u201cIf you sacrifice yourself and die to self, you will find life and joy and fulfillment.\u201d\n\nWe just don\u2019t think\u2014\u201cNo; sacrifice to self is where you find despair. It\u2019s where you find\u2014it\u2019s drudgery. Who wants to sacrifice?\u201d God says, \u201cDo this and watch joy explode in your life.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Several years ago, I met a young woman; and I heard that she had tried to take her life several times. She was 19 years old. I said to her, \u201cIf you ever want to talk, I would be so happy to sit down and just talk to you.\u201d I was shocked that the next day she called me and asked if she could come over. She came over; she was telling me about how she had tried to take her life several times. She really has struggled with depression and the suicide has been on her mind constantly.\n\nShe was a D1 soccer player\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014who was injured; and her career was now on hold. That had been her life. I asked her, \u201cTell me who you are.\u201d She said, \u201cI only know who I <em>used<\/em> to be. I used to be a soccer player, and my life used to have meaning.\u201d I said, \u201cThat\u2019s what you <em>do<\/em>; who <em>are<\/em> you?\u201d She said, \u201cI have no idea.\u201d\n\nI explained the gospel to her; and I said, \u201cWhat Jesus wants is your life\u2014all of you\/everything\u2014to lay it down, because He\u2019s the One that created you,\u201d and \u201cHe is the One who knows you.\u201d She said, \u201cI can\u2019t give all of that; I can\u2019t surrender that. I can\u2019t die to myself, because it sounds so wrong.\u201d Yet, she was trying to die, herself.\n\nThe next day, she called me again and said, \u201cCan I talk again?\u201d I said, \u201cYes.\u201d She kind of went through the thing she was struggling with about God. Then she goes, \u201cOkay; I can\u2019t like\u2014to give myself to God sounds like the scariest thing in the world.\u201d I said, \u201cIt <em>is<\/em>\u2014\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cit is, because you really don\u2019t know what He has in store; but He\u2019s the One who <em>made<\/em> you. To discover who He is, is to discover who you are.\u201d The next day she calls me\u2014she goes, \u201cI did it. I just want you to know I did it.\u201d\n\nIt\u2019s so interesting\u2014because in your book, you talk about how suicide is on the rise more than ever.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Right; I think it is because we are looking within. We don\u2019t know who we are; because we don\u2019t know who made us, and how He made us, and for what purpose. We\u2019re living for this temporary life that is fragile and broken. We cannot be dependent\/we cannot identify with the things that we <em>do<\/em>. We must lose ourselves and identify with Christ; right? We are dead and raised to life with Christ, and that\u2019s where joy is found.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s one of the scariest things, though.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> It is; it totally is.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We were having dinner last week with a couple, and this husband was saying he has a big decision to make. He was getting some counsel from a friend. He\u2019s going through the pros and cons of the: \u201cShould I stay here?\u201d \u201cShould I do this?\u201d\n\nHis friend said, \u201cDo you know what you signed up for when you gave your life to Christ?\u201d Craig is like, \u201cI think so.\u201d He goes, \u201cHere is what you signed up for\u201d; and he slips a piece of paper over that\u2019s <em>blank<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> He said, \u201cYou signed on the bottom to a blank sheet.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> That\u2019s good.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cThat\u2019s all you need to know. God is in control of what\u2019s on that paper, and you don\u2019t know; but you know who is. That\u2019s losing your life\u2014\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cto an unknown future. Are you willing to sacrifice that?\u201d Craig is like, \u201cYes; I\u2019m in.\u201d That\u2019s what we did, but it\u2019s <em>scary<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> It\u2019s <em>initially<\/em> scary,\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> \u2014but it\u2019s sustaining.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> You know that moment, where you go, \u201cOkay; I surrender; I belong to You\u2014blank sheet of paper\u2014whatever You want to do.\u201d That is scary; but it\u2019s sustaining, because we know who He is. He\u2019s the God who raised from the dead. He conquered sin and death, and He\u2019s coming again.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Preach it.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> We will reign with Him forever\u2014you know?\u2014when it\u2019s the new heaven and the new earth. Our future is certain, and this is the sustainable way to live. In a culture, and in a place and a time, where things are broken and fallen, and disappoint, and hurt and betray, our God reigns; and He will help us.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Talk about your daughters.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Okay. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Like, how do you talk to them? What are you saying to them? Tell us about them of what you would say as you are teaching them: \u201cThis is who you are.\u201d\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Well, I have four daughters; so the ones that are at home are 13, 15, and 17. Three girls, at home, are teenagers. One, who is 23\u2014we adopted her from Thailand when she was 12\u2014now, she lives in North Carolina with her husband, who is in the Army. They actually have a [daughter]; I\u2019m actually a grandmother. Lots of girls in our life. My husband loves to say the joke that he\u2019s in full-time women\u2019s ministry\u2014[Laughter]\u2014which he is and so am I.\n\nBut it is a joy; raising these daughters has been a joy; but also scary, just such a thrilling and terrifying responsibility before the Lord. We tell them all the time\u2014I mean, we actually wrote it out: the Oshman Family Manifesto\u2014my husband wrote it out, years ago; we go back to it all the time.\n\nBasically, our mission statement\/our vision statement, as parents, is we would just love for our children\u2014if God would allow\u2014that our children would know Him and love Him more than anything else or anyone else in the whole world. Whatever He has called them to, or gifted them to, or asked them to do\u2014it doesn\u2019t matter so much\u2014they can go work at the neighborhood restaurant; they can be stay-at-home moms; they can be the CEO of a bank; they can be missionaries; they can be doctors\u2014that\u2019s not really it for us. What is it for us is that they would know their Maker, and they would cherish their Savior.\n\nI think whatever life brings them, then\u2014whatever sickness, whatever failure, whatever sin that they actually might fall into or commit themselves, whatever shame comes upon them\u2014all of those things are small compared to their great God, who loves them infinitely without condition, beyond comprehension. My desire is that they would know Him, and love Him, and walk with Him. We\u2019re always trying to put that before them and just have a culture and an ethos of grace in our home.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> As you coach other parents, is that what you would say?\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Yes; I mean, I praise the Lord\u2014neither my husband nor I were raised in Christian homes\u2014but my husband had an amazing mentor\/his pastor Keita, when he was a young adult, who really understood grace. He just showered my husband in grace all the time, so my husband had this tremendous foundation of grace\u2014just understanding the gospel\u2014that: \u201cI am not the sum total of my work; I\u2019m not the sum of my sins; I\u2019m not the sum of what I can produce. I am in Christ.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I think what you\u2019re hitting at is <em>so critical<\/em> because, well, if it isn\u2019t just about me\u2014and I\u2019ve got to go vertical to find out who I am\u2014and it won\u2019t be about me anymore; it\u2019s about Him, I\u2019ve really got to know Him.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It won\u2019t be about you anymore. You will discover He is truly enough; you\u2019ll know Him well enough to be confident in that.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What if there were book clubs\u2014of women, guys, mothers, daughters, fathers, sons\u2014who were absorbing this message: \u201cEnough about me. Let\u2019s talk about God; let\u2019s talk about His agenda; let\u2019s talk about His purposes. Let\u2019s refocus what\u2019s at the center of our lives.\u201d\n\nWe\u2019ve all seen that classic illustration that says, \u201cWho is on the throne?\u201d\u2014right?\u2014you on the throne; God on the throne. That\u2019s something that we\u2019re dealing with every day of our lives: \u201cWho is on the throne at this moment?\u201d \u201cWho is on the throne in this event\/in this circumstance?\u201d \u201cWho\u2019s priorities do I care most about?\u201d Your book, <em>Enough about Me<\/em>, is pointing us away from that self-fixated orientation.\n\nWe\u2019re so glad you came and talked with us about this. I think our listeners have gotten the needed wheel alignment from this conversation. Thank you.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Awesome. Praise God. Thank you.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I would encourage listeners to get a copy of your book, <em>Enough about Me: Finding Lasting Joy in the Age of Self<\/em>. Go through this with a friend. If you\u2019re able to do some kind of small group or book club right now, have everybody go through this book together. Maybe, read through parts of it together, as a family. This issue is critical to our spiritual growth.\n\nAgain, the title of the book is <em>Enough about Me: Finding Lasting Joy in the Age of Self<\/em> by Jen Oshman. You can order the book from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order at 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY,\u201d to get a copy of Jen\u2019s book.\n\nNow, we have recently updated and upgraded the <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> app, which is available in your app store. David Robbins, who is the president of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, is here to talk about it. We\u2019re pretty excited about this, David.\n\n<strong>David:<\/strong> Yes, Bob; I\u2019ve got something I\u2019ve been wanting to talk about for a while, because one of the things we\u2019ve always been committed to, at FamilyLife, is connecting with families\u2014knowing their needs\u2014being able to pray for people in their hurts and in their joys. In July, my inbox was <em>flooded<\/em> with over 2300 prayer requests after an email I sent out, asking, \u201cHow can we pray for you?\u201d It was a privilege for Meg, and myself, and our team, to pray for you and your families.\n\nIt motivated me, and it motivated our teams at FamilyLife to continue to trust God to do <em>more<\/em> to help families. We want to be available 24\/7; that\u2019s why we have launched this new app. We got to work. We are very excited to bring you new content\/great content like <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> and so many other resources that are available to you at the click of a button.\n\nI had a listener, named Greg, recently email me and said, \u201cWe\u2019ve been starting to tune into the app to catch up on the shows we\u2019ve missed on the radio. It helped give us hope. It\u2019s like drinking a cup of cool water on a warm day; so refreshing.\u201d Go to your app store, search for the FamilyLife app, and download it from there. We look forward to continue to journey with you in the ways you are growing.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; thank you, David.\n\nNow, tomorrow, we want to talk about the challenges black parents are facing, trying to raise black children in our current cultural moment. Jasmine Holmes is going to join us to talk about a book she\u2019s written called <em>Mother to Son<\/em>, where she is grappling with some of these issues. We\u2019ll talk with her about it tomorrow. I hope you can tune in for that.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. 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of self-focused, consumer-centric faith? Turn away from \"me-ology,\" says Jen Oshman, and learn the powerful theology of saying, \"Enough about me!\"","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-10-13.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Jesus said, \u201cIf anyone would be My follower, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me.\u201d Jen Oshman thinks we\u2019re not talking about death to self enough.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> We can die in a million ways: it can be going across the street and loving our literal neighbor; it can be going across the city; it can be going across the ocean; it can be going across the bedroom to extend forgiveness to a spouse or to a child; it can be returning a blessing for a cursing in the workplace, in the church, wherever; but death to self is required for disciples of Jesus.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, October 13<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I\u2019m Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. How would your marriage, your family\u2014all of your relationships for that matter\u2014how would they look different if you were committed to the idea of dying to self? We\u2019ll explore that today with Jen Oshman. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. This was many years ago\u2014John Piper was a guest on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>\u2014and he was telling us about how, around their house, he would, from time to time, become whiny. There would be things that would\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It\u2019s a man thing. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Honey, aren\u2019t you glad you\u2019re\u2014she just threw me under the\u2014she threw <em>you<\/em> under the bus too! [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, not you; sorry.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I was just going to say, \u201cAren\u2019t you glad you\u2019re not married to a whiner?\u201d; but I guess that didn\u2019t work.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> He would grumble or complain about things. He said, \u201cMy family will break out in song when I do that.\u201d He said, \u201cThere\u2019s this worship chorus we sing at our church that\u2014[singing] \u2018It\u2019s all about You, Jesus\u2019; but they would change it to [singing] \u2018It\u2019s all about you, Johnny.\u2019\u201d [Laughter] They sang about him. I thought, \u201cYou could just pop out \u2018Johnny\u2019 and put in \u2018Bobby\u2019 or \u2018Davy\u2019\u2014or any of us for that matter\u2014because there are times in life, where we get so fixated\/so focused on self, that we become unbearable to the people around us.\u201d\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> That\u2019s true.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> In some ways, the culture celebrates it.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We\u2019re supposed to do that; right?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; we all have a voice now. We need to let our voice be heard\u2014that\u2019s what we\u2019re hearing more and more.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014until you come across a book like <em>Enough about Me<\/em>. [Laughter] Then you go, \u201cMaybe there is some correction that needs to happen here.\u201d\n\nJen Oshman is joining us, again, on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Welcome back.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Thanks so much.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Jen is the author of that book, <em>Enough about Me<\/em>. She is a mom of four daughters, living in Parker, Colorado, with her husband, who is a pastor at a local church there. Jen and her husband spent 15 years on the mission field.\n\nTell us about how you guys got to the mission field\/what you were doing there. Tell us about that whole chapter of your life.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Sure; well, when Mark and I got married, we both had a vision and a passion for the nations. We wanted to go overseas; it was something that we were unified in from day one. We went with Cadence International, which is a ministry to American military members overseas; and he pastored in Okinawa, Japan. Everybody that we ministered to was American military members but living in Japan. It was really sweet to be part of a local American church but on the other side of the world.\n\nIt was a community that was obviously\u2014because they were military members\u2014they were living for a bigger purpose and a bigger passion than sort of the average American dream or the average American life. They were people, who were excited about the gospel\/excited about the mission and vision of the church, and people who needed\u2014who were outside of the normal American life such that they were asking bigger questions. They were asking more about the meaning of life and what\u2019s after life. It was a fruitful ministry; it was a <em>blast<\/em>. I mean, they were sort of like the best years of our life; we loved it.\n\nBut we also had a burden, and a desire, and just a passion to see the name of Christ exalted in the Czech Republic. It\u2019s one of the most atheist nations on the planet\u2014less than one half of one percent of Czech people know Jesus as their Lord and Savior\u2014so a very spiritually dark context. That was something that just sort of hung over us all of our years there in Japan. We finally made the move and partnered with a local Czech church and went about church planting in Brno, Czech Republic.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> That dream was cut short in God\u2019s providence, and kindness, and sovereignty\u2014even still, it feels a little bit painful to talk about it\u2014we envisioned ourselves there forever and ever. My father was languishing with Alzheimer\u2019s and dementia; we came back to take care of him. That\u2019s what brought us back to Colorado, where we\u2019re from.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What was that like, Jen, coming back? Was it a culture shock?\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Yes; it really was. I mean, we had lived overseas a long time. We had taken a newborn with us, and then everybody else was born in Asia. It was disorienting for our kids. America was another foreign country for them, and it was disorienting for us because\u2014and I will\/just to confess this\u2014like a lot of our identity was wrapped up in being overseas missionaries: \u201cIf we\u2019re not on the mission field, then who are we? What value do we bring to the table, in terms of the church and the kingdom, and just being human beings?\u201d\n\nIt was hard. There were just some normal, you know, growth that had to take place; culture shock that had to take place; but also some refining and pruning of the Lord, just revealing to us that we are His; we belong to Him; and it\u2019s not about what we can conjure up and produce on our own. It\u2019s about the story that He is writing that He is invited us to be a part of.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The heart of your book, <em>Enough about Me<\/em>, is that we have to understand that our identity exists apart from our activity\u2014\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014in order for our activity to make sense. Part of the challenge all of us run into is: \u201cWho are we apart from our activity?\u201d\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The things that define us in everyday life are the things we do and the things we\u2019re known for. Yet, if we don\u2019t have a solid understanding of who we are, apart from those things\u2014as children of God, beloved of God, accepted by God\u2014then all of the stuff we do, if that\u2019s what defines us\u2014God can start to prune that, take it away, take you out of the Czech Republic, put you somewhere else, and say, \u201cNow, who are you?\u201d\u2014right?\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Yes, yes; that\u2019s a good word. I think we are experiencing that in the middle of this coronavirus pandemic here in 2020. All of us do identify so strongly with the office that we go to in the morning, the teams that we are on, the clubs that we are a part of, the activities that we do\u2014that\u2019s who we <em>are<\/em>. Those have been stripped away in 2020. That has been painful but a blessing\u2014also a gift of God and a gift of grace\u2014as we are reminded: \u201cNo; I am not my activities; I am not what I produce. I am a child of God; I am His vessel to do with as He pleases.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I want to know what you think about this\u2014and really what everybody thinks about this\u2014because as I\u2019ve been pondering your book and thinking about this subject, I\u2019m wondering, \u201cDo men and women\/do we do our sense of self differently?\u201d If a woman is fixating on her identity and a man is fixating on his identity\u2014and thinking about it wrongly\u2014are our sin patterns going to be different? I know we\u2019re talking, as my son likes to say, \u201cgenderalities\u201d\u2014these are gender-based generalities\u2014but is our self-focus a different kind of self-focus, maybe?\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019m thinking of the Garden, where Adam\u2019s passivity is matched with Eve\u2019s\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014controlling.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014her controlling\/her susceptibility to temptation. Was this sin achievement?\u2014I mean, was she reaching out, thinking, \u201cOoh, I would like to be like God\u201d? Was Adam like, \u201cOkay; whatever\u201d?\u2014you know? I\u2019m just trying to\u2014I don\u2019t know that I have an answer\u2014maybe, our listeners will write us and tell us what the right answer is on all of this.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I think we all know the heart\u2014or the center\/the foundation\u2014of it is sin or selfishness. I mean, enough of me is a selfless: \u201cI\u2019m not going to focus on me anymore.\u201d\n\nI remember\u2014it just came to my mind\u2014I got to play in this little golf charity outing, years ago. A former Detroit Lion player sent me a text\u2014it\u2019s classic for me\u2014that said: \u201cHey, would you like to play in my golf outing?\u201d\u2014such and such a date. \u201cWe\u2019d love to have you come.\u201d My first response to the text\u2014and he should have known this was coming\u2014\u201cWell, yes; I\u2019m free that day, but how much is it?\u201d\u2014because I\u2019m always about\u2014\u201cHow much money is this going to cost me?\u201d\u2014even though it\u2019s going to charity; right?\n\nDrew texts back right away; he goes, \u201cOh, you\u2019ll be a celebrity; celebrities are free.\u201d I text back: \u201cYou and I both know I\u2019m not a celebrity. What are you talking about?\u201d [Laughter] He goes, \u201cWell, here is how it works. A foursome pays $1,000 to play with a celebrity, and that\u2019s how we raise the money.\u201d He said, \u201cI\u2019m making you a celebrity, because you won\u2019t come unless we do.\u201d [Laughter] Long story short\u2014I\u2019m in; right?\n\nI get to the golf course, and I\u2019m looking around. There are real celebrities there. I\u2019m like, \u201cOh boy! This is not going to go good when my foursome realizes it\u2019s me.\u201d [Laughter] They give you\u2014you go to this group\u2014so I walk up, and it was two couples; they weren\u2019t married. Their spouses, actually, were working the tournament, but they were paired together. I walk up; I go, \u201cHey, I\u2019m Dave Wilson. What\u2019s your name?\u201d They said their name. Then they all look at me and go, \u201cUh, why\u2019d you introduce yourself?\u201d\n\nI go, \u201cOh, I didn\u2019t tell you; I\u2019m your celebrity.\u201d They go, \u201cWho are <em>you<\/em>?\u201d I go, \u201cOh, well, I\u2019m the chaplain of the Detroit Lions.\u201d This dude looks at me, and he goes, \u201cOh great! [Laughter] So that means we can\u2019t cuss, and we can\u2019t drink,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s what he said. [Laughter] I go, \u201cWell, it gets better; I\u2019m not a good golfer either.\u201d [Laughter]\n\nHere\u2019s why I\u2019m telling you this story. We go out golfing, and they are great people; right? We\u2019re on like the tenth hole; and all of a sudden, this wife that was in the other cart walks up to me\u2014we\u2019re on the putting green\u2014she goes, \u201cHey, John, here says you\u2019re a marriage expert.\u201d I go, \u201cWhat?\u201d \u201cHe says you\u2019re writing a book on marriage, and you and your wife speak around the country on marriage; so you\u2019re a marriage expert.\u201d I go, \u201cI\u2019m no marriage expert.\u201d She goes like this, \u201cWell, I\u2019ve got a marriage question.\u201d I go, \u201cWhat\u2019s that?\u201d She goes, \u201cI\u2019m in my second marriage; what\u2019s the problem with marriage?\u201d\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Whoa.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m looking at her, like, \u201cOh boy!\u201d And she meant it.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019ll never forget it\u2014it just came to my mind\u2014I go, \u201cOh, well, that\u2019s easy. I can answer that with one word.\u201d She goes, \u201cReally?! What\u2019s that?\u201d This is classic; I\u2019ll never forget this\u2014I go, \u201cThat word would be selfishness.\u201d She goes, \u201cYou are so right! My first husband was so selfish!\u201d\u2014[Laughter]\u2014that\u2019s what she said. I mean, it was like you couldn\u2019t have written this; right?\n\nI just look at her, and I go, \u201cI\u2019m not talking about your first husband.\u201d I went like this\u2014I said, \u201cI\u2019m talking about <em>you<\/em>, and I\u2019m talking about <em>me<\/em>.\u201d She said to me, \u201cOh!\u201d Then, later, she said, \u201cI\u2019ve never heard a pastor say he was selfish. You said you were selfish.\u201d I go, \u201cThat\u2019s the <em>problem<\/em>.\u201d\n\nI mean, even the answer\u2014\u201cIs a woman or a man different?\u201d\u2014\u201cYes; we\u2019re different, I think, in the way it plays out; but at the heart of it, we think about <em>me<\/em> because we\u2019re selfish; we\u2019re sinners.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cOf course, we\u2019re going to focus on that.\u201d\n\nThen if we look into <em>me<\/em> to find the answer for me, we\u2019re never going to find it. That\u2019s why your book is so true. It\u2019s like, \u201cWe have to go vertical and say, \u2018What does He say?\u2019\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is why you, in your book say, \u201cUltimately, the solution to this me-fixation that we have is a gospel realignment\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201can understanding of the gospel that goes deeper than most of the superficial understandings of the gospel that we\u2019re experiencing in contemporary American Christianity.\u201d\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Right; right. What I\u2019m seeing across the church in the United States\u2014let me be clear: I love the church\u2014I have been a missionary for two decades, in women\u2019s ministry; I\u2019m a pastor\u2019s wife\/we planted a church. I love the bride of Christ, and I don\u2019t mean to knock her; but I do mean to critique her; and that is we have been very self-focused in our churches as well. We\u2019ve sort of come up with consumer-centric faith: \u201cHow can we fill the pews?\u201d \u201cHow can we build a bigger building?\u201d \u201cHow can we pay the pastor\u2019s salary?\u201d\n\nWe\u2019re hearing sermons; we\u2019re hearing lessons; we\u2019re in Bible studies; we\u2019re in groups; we\u2019re in fellowships that are driving this consumer train\/that are building this sort of institution of the church rather than the fellowship, and the body, and the family that I think Jesus intended in the 1<sup>st<\/sup> century.\n\nMy desire is that we\u2014as a church, and we, as individuals\u2014would take our eyes off ourselves\u2014stop seeking to build our institutions\/stop seeking to build our own little kingdom\u2014and we would do what Jesus said, which is: \u201cTake up your cross and follow Me.\u201d Whoever would follow Jesus would, then, come and die. That is all over the Word of God, and we don\u2019t talk about it very often. That is\u2014the subtitle of my book is <em>Find Lasting Joy in the Age of Self<\/em>\u2014that counterintuitively\u2014counter to our flesh\/counter to our culture\u2014that is where joy is found\u2014is when we die to ourselves.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> What does that look like?\u2014as you say, very specifically, in the book, \u201cLasting joy is found in picking up your cross.\u201d Explain that; what does that mean?\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Yes; the Scriptures are full of commands, and admonishments, and invitations, and encouragements to die to ourselves. It can be a spectrum. We can\u2019t be putting pastors and missionaries on some sort of pedestal and saying, \u201cThey\u2019re really dying to themselves.\u201d That\u2019s not true; in Acts 17, the Lord is clear that He has put us in the times and places that we are for a reason. It is so that we would seek Him and find Him.\n\nI\u2019m in America right now for a reason, and so are you. Everybody listening\u2014wherever they are all over the world\u2014it\u2019s not a mistake that the Lord would have each of the listeners where they are in 2020 in this moment so that we\u2019ll seek God and find Him. We can die in a million ways: it could be going across the street and loving our literal neighbor; it can be going across the city; it could be going across the ocean; it could be going across the bedroom to extend forgiveness to a spouse or to a child; but death to self is required for disciples of Jesus.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> When I wrote my book, <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em>, one of the discoveries for me\/one of the things that I had to really wrap my head around is that sacrificial, self-giving love is the key to the kind of fulfilling joy-filled relationship that God designs for us. That\u2019s the counterintuitive, paradoxical nature of the gospel\u2014that the first are last and the last are first\u2014that everything is upside down: \u201cIf you want to be great, be a servant,\u201d \u201cIf you sacrifice yourself and die to self, you will find life and joy and fulfillment.\u201d\n\nWe just don\u2019t think\u2014\u201cNo; sacrifice to self is where you find despair. It\u2019s where you find\u2014it\u2019s drudgery. Who wants to sacrifice?\u201d God says, \u201cDo this and watch joy explode in your life.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Several years ago, I met a young woman; and I heard that she had tried to take her life several times. She was 19 years old. I said to her, \u201cIf you ever want to talk, I would be so happy to sit down and just talk to you.\u201d I was shocked that the next day she called me and asked if she could come over. She came over; she was telling me about how she had tried to take her life several times. She really has struggled with depression and the suicide has been on her mind constantly.\n\nShe was a D1 soccer player\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014who was injured; and her career was now on hold. That had been her life. I asked her, \u201cTell me who you are.\u201d She said, \u201cI only know who I <em>used<\/em> to be. I used to be a soccer player, and my life used to have meaning.\u201d I said, \u201cThat\u2019s what you <em>do<\/em>; who <em>are<\/em> you?\u201d She said, \u201cI have no idea.\u201d\n\nI explained the gospel to her; and I said, \u201cWhat Jesus wants is your life\u2014all of you\/everything\u2014to lay it down, because He\u2019s the One that created you,\u201d and \u201cHe is the One who knows you.\u201d She said, \u201cI can\u2019t give all of that; I can\u2019t surrender that. I can\u2019t die to myself, because it sounds so wrong.\u201d Yet, she was trying to die, herself.\n\nThe next day, she called me again and said, \u201cCan I talk again?\u201d I said, \u201cYes.\u201d She kind of went through the thing she was struggling with about God. Then she goes, \u201cOkay; I can\u2019t like\u2014to give myself to God sounds like the scariest thing in the world.\u201d I said, \u201cIt <em>is<\/em>\u2014\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cit is, because you really don\u2019t know what He has in store; but He\u2019s the One who <em>made<\/em> you. To discover who He is, is to discover who you are.\u201d The next day she calls me\u2014she goes, \u201cI did it. I just want you to know I did it.\u201d\n\nIt\u2019s so interesting\u2014because in your book, you talk about how suicide is on the rise more than ever.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Right; I think it is because we are looking within. We don\u2019t know who we are; because we don\u2019t know who made us, and how He made us, and for what purpose. We\u2019re living for this temporary life that is fragile and broken. We cannot be dependent\/we cannot identify with the things that we <em>do<\/em>. We must lose ourselves and identify with Christ; right? We are dead and raised to life with Christ, and that\u2019s where joy is found.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s one of the scariest things, though.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> It is; it totally is.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We were having dinner last week with a couple, and this husband was saying he has a big decision to make. He was getting some counsel from a friend. He\u2019s going through the pros and cons of the: \u201cShould I stay here?\u201d \u201cShould I do this?\u201d\n\nHis friend said, \u201cDo you know what you signed up for when you gave your life to Christ?\u201d Craig is like, \u201cI think so.\u201d He goes, \u201cHere is what you signed up for\u201d; and he slips a piece of paper over that\u2019s <em>blank<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> He said, \u201cYou signed on the bottom to a blank sheet.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> That\u2019s good.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cThat\u2019s all you need to know. God is in control of what\u2019s on that paper, and you don\u2019t know; but you know who is. That\u2019s losing your life\u2014\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cto an unknown future. Are you willing to sacrifice that?\u201d Craig is like, \u201cYes; I\u2019m in.\u201d That\u2019s what we did, but it\u2019s <em>scary<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> It\u2019s <em>initially<\/em> scary,\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> \u2014but it\u2019s sustaining.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> You know that moment, where you go, \u201cOkay; I surrender; I belong to You\u2014blank sheet of paper\u2014whatever You want to do.\u201d That is scary; but it\u2019s sustaining, because we know who He is. He\u2019s the God who raised from the dead. He conquered sin and death, and He\u2019s coming again.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Preach it.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> We will reign with Him forever\u2014you know?\u2014when it\u2019s the new heaven and the new earth. Our future is certain, and this is the sustainable way to live. In a culture, and in a place and a time, where things are broken and fallen, and disappoint, and hurt and betray, our God reigns; and He will help us.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Talk about your daughters.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Okay. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Like, how do you talk to them? What are you saying to them? Tell us about them of what you would say as you are teaching them: \u201cThis is who you are.\u201d\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Well, I have four daughters; so the ones that are at home are 13, 15, and 17. Three girls, at home, are teenagers. One, who is 23\u2014we adopted her from Thailand when she was 12\u2014now, she lives in North Carolina with her husband, who is in the Army. They actually have a [daughter]; I\u2019m actually a grandmother. Lots of girls in our life. My husband loves to say the joke that he\u2019s in full-time women\u2019s ministry\u2014[Laughter]\u2014which he is and so am I.\n\nBut it is a joy; raising these daughters has been a joy; but also scary, just such a thrilling and terrifying responsibility before the Lord. We tell them all the time\u2014I mean, we actually wrote it out: the Oshman Family Manifesto\u2014my husband wrote it out, years ago; we go back to it all the time.\n\nBasically, our mission statement\/our vision statement, as parents, is we would just love for our children\u2014if God would allow\u2014that our children would know Him and love Him more than anything else or anyone else in the whole world. Whatever He has called them to, or gifted them to, or asked them to do\u2014it doesn\u2019t matter so much\u2014they can go work at the neighborhood restaurant; they can be stay-at-home moms; they can be the CEO of a bank; they can be missionaries; they can be doctors\u2014that\u2019s not really it for us. What is it for us is that they would know their Maker, and they would cherish their Savior.\n\nI think whatever life brings them, then\u2014whatever sickness, whatever failure, whatever sin that they actually might fall into or commit themselves, whatever shame comes upon them\u2014all of those things are small compared to their great God, who loves them infinitely without condition, beyond comprehension. My desire is that they would know Him, and love Him, and walk with Him. We\u2019re always trying to put that before them and just have a culture and an ethos of grace in our home.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> As you coach other parents, is that what you would say?\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Yes; I mean, I praise the Lord\u2014neither my husband nor I were raised in Christian homes\u2014but my husband had an amazing mentor\/his pastor Keita, when he was a young adult, who really understood grace. He just showered my husband in grace all the time, so my husband had this tremendous foundation of grace\u2014just understanding the gospel\u2014that: \u201cI am not the sum total of my work; I\u2019m not the sum of my sins; I\u2019m not the sum of what I can produce. I am in Christ.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I think what you\u2019re hitting at is <em>so critical<\/em> because, well, if it isn\u2019t just about me\u2014and I\u2019ve got to go vertical to find out who I am\u2014and it won\u2019t be about me anymore; it\u2019s about Him, I\u2019ve really got to know Him.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It won\u2019t be about you anymore. You will discover He is truly enough; you\u2019ll know Him well enough to be confident in that.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What if there were book clubs\u2014of women, guys, mothers, daughters, fathers, sons\u2014who were absorbing this message: \u201cEnough about me. Let\u2019s talk about God; let\u2019s talk about His agenda; let\u2019s talk about His purposes. Let\u2019s refocus what\u2019s at the center of our lives.\u201d\n\nWe\u2019ve all seen that classic illustration that says, \u201cWho is on the throne?\u201d\u2014right?\u2014you on the throne; God on the throne. That\u2019s something that we\u2019re dealing with every day of our lives: \u201cWho is on the throne at this moment?\u201d \u201cWho is on the throne in this event\/in this circumstance?\u201d \u201cWho\u2019s priorities do I care most about?\u201d Your book, <em>Enough about Me<\/em>, is pointing us away from that self-fixated orientation.\n\nWe\u2019re so glad you came and talked with us about this. I think our listeners have gotten the needed wheel alignment from this conversation. Thank you.\n\n<strong>Jen:<\/strong> Awesome. Praise God. Thank you.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I would encourage listeners to get a copy of your book, <em>Enough about Me: Finding Lasting Joy in the Age of Self<\/em>. Go through this with a friend. If you\u2019re able to do some kind of small group or book club right now, have everybody go through this book together. Maybe, read through parts of it together, as a family. This issue is critical to our spiritual growth.\n\nAgain, the title of the book is <em>Enough about Me: Finding Lasting Joy in the Age of Self<\/em> by Jen Oshman. You can order the book from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order at 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY,\u201d to get a copy of Jen\u2019s book.\n\nNow, we have recently updated and upgraded the <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> app, which is available in your app store. David Robbins, who is the president of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, is here to talk about it. We\u2019re pretty excited about this, David.\n\n<strong>David:<\/strong> Yes, Bob; I\u2019ve got something I\u2019ve been wanting to talk about for a while, because one of the things we\u2019ve always been committed to, at FamilyLife, is connecting with families\u2014knowing their needs\u2014being able to pray for people in their hurts and in their joys. In July, my inbox was <em>flooded<\/em> with over 2300 prayer requests after an email I sent out, asking, \u201cHow can we pray for you?\u201d It was a privilege for Meg, and myself, and our team, to pray for you and your families.\n\nIt motivated me, and it motivated our teams at FamilyLife to continue to trust God to do <em>more<\/em> to help families. We want to be available 24\/7; that\u2019s why we have launched this new app. We got to work. We are very excited to bring you new content\/great content like <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> and so many other resources that are available to you at the click of a button.\n\nI had a listener, named Greg, recently email me and said, \u201cWe\u2019ve been starting to tune into the app to catch up on the shows we\u2019ve missed on the radio. It helped give us hope. It\u2019s like drinking a cup of cool water on a warm day; so refreshing.\u201d Go to your app store, search for the FamilyLife app, and download it from there. We look forward to continue to journey with you in the ways you are growing.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; thank you, David.\n\nNow, tomorrow, we want to talk about the challenges black parents are facing, trying to raise black children in our current cultural moment. Jasmine Holmes is going to join us to talk about a book she\u2019s written called <em>Mother to Son<\/em>, where she is grappling with some of these issues. We\u2019ll talk with her about it tomorrow. I hope you can tune in for that.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. 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