{"id":306452,"date":"2020-10-03T07:00:06","date_gmt":"2020-10-03T11:00:06","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/sustaining-forgiveness\/"},"modified":"2025-05-21T10:26:01","modified_gmt":"2025-05-21T14:26:01","slug":"sustaining-forgiveness","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-this-week\/sustaining-forgiveness\/","title":{"rendered":"Sustaining Forgiveness"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Anthony Thompson and Mary DeMuth tell their devastating stories that require heroic&#8211;ongoing&#8211;forgiveness.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Anthony Thompson and Mary DeMuth tell their devastating stories that require heroic&#8211;ongoing&#8211;forgiveness.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294950,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/d2c17sq0nj1f7e.cloudfront.net\/flw2020-10-03.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:28:00","filesize":"25.64M","filesize_raw":"26882973","date_recorded":"2020-10-03 07:00:06","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2908,2827],"tags":[2699],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[9560,9065],"series":[10388],"class_list":["post-306452","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-forgiveness","category-repentance","tag-forgiveness","cwp_profile-anthony-thompson","cwp_profile-mary-demuth","series-familylife-this-week"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/10\/FLTW-Podcast-Cover-2-1400x1400-1-300x300-1.jpg?w=300","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/10\/FLTW-Podcast-Cover-2-1400x1400-1-300x300-1.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/dts.podtrac.com\/redirect.mp3\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/306452\/sustaining-forgiveness","player_link":"https:\/\/dts.podtrac.com\/redirect.mp3\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/306452\/sustaining-forgiveness","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-this-week","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"Y6WzmEdIHl\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-this-week\/sustaining-forgiveness\/\">Sustaining Forgiveness<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-this-week\/sustaining-forgiveness\/embed\/#?secret=Y6WzmEdIHl\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Sustaining Forgiveness&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"Y6WzmEdIHl\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/flw\/flw2020-10-03.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/d2c17sq0nj1f7e.cloudfront.net\/flw2020-10-03.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p><strong>Michelle:<\/strong> When Reverend Anthony Thompson\u2019s wife, Myra, was killed by white supremacist, Dylann Roof, he was forced to make a choice that every Christian needs to face\u2014to forgive or not to forgive. Here\u2019s Reverend Thompson.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong> When we forgive, you\u2019re allowing God to be the judge\/not yourself. Only God can judge somebody\u2019s heart. This is why you have to look at that person\u2014well, first of all, you look at yourself\u2014you look at yourself and who you are in the eyes of the Lord. In the eyes of God, we are what?\u2014all sinners. You know, we may have committed different sins, but we\u2019re all sinners.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s what I looked at when I saw Dylann. You know, I saw him as a sinner in God\u2019s eyes, and I saw myself as a sinner in God\u2019s eyes. If God forgave <em>me<\/em>, why can\u2019t I forgive Dylann?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michelle:<\/strong> Today, we\u2019re going to talk about forgiveness\u2014not just every day sort of garden-variety forgiveness\u2014but forgiveness in those hard places\/really hard places on this edition of <em>FamilyLife This Week<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>Welcome to <em>FamilyLife This Week.<\/em> I\u2019m Michelle Hill. You know, I\u2019ve been contemplating forgiveness lately. There\u2019s someone in my life who has been, well, rubbing me the wrong way; and there\u2019s been a lot of hurt.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Keith [sound engineer]:<\/strong> I\u2019m sorry, Michelle.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michelle:<\/strong> Thanks, Keith. Yes, I didn\u2019t want to share; but it was <em>you<\/em>. There\u2019s been a lot\u2014you know it\u2019s <em>not <\/em>him; right?\u2014there\u2019s been a lot of hurt, and that hurt can fester. Interestingly enough, while I\u2019ve been walking this season, I\u2019ve been also reading through the Old Testament. I\u2019ve been watching God forgive the Israelites over, and over, and over, and over. Do you get the idea?\u2014it\u2019s over and over and over\u2014like continually\/like <em>all<\/em> the time. Boy, were they some ungrateful people <em>and<\/em> forgetful people; they kept forgetting God! Yet He continued to forgive them.<\/p>\n<p>You know, for God, forgiveness is just who He is!\u2014it\u2019s part of His character. But to human beings, like you and me, forgiveness is a process. At times, it\u2019s a <em>chore<\/em>; but it\u2019s always <em>freeing<\/em>. I want to explore this forgiveness today, mostly because <em>I<\/em> need some encouragement; and I thought, \u201cWell, maybe you do too.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>You know, as I said a second ago, forgiveness is a process. It doesn\u2019t always seem like it\u2019s the natural thing to do, but it is something that God commands us to do. When God says, \u201cForgive,\u201d well, we need to forgive. That seems so easy; right?<\/p>\n<p>Well, for Pastor Anthony Thompson, he was faced with forgiveness during the most pivotal time of his life. Pastor Thompson talked with Kim Anthony on her podcast, <em>Unfavorable Odds, <\/em>that\u2019s on the FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> Podcast Network. Pastor Thompson shared about a day that changed his life\u2014a day that was marked by <em>incredible<\/em> loss. Here\u2019s Kim\u2019s conversation with Pastor Anthony Thompson.<\/p>\n<p>[Previous <em>Unfavorable Odds <\/em>Podcast]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>I want to start with the events of June 17, 2015. Your wife, Myra, was excited about some things that were going on in her life.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes; well, we were having a good day. She was very excited; she had this great big smile\u2014I mean, just blooming with joy. Normally, we would walk each other to the door: say goodbye, give a kiss, and \u201cLove you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That particular day, for some reason, I couldn\u2019t get to the door. She told me to meet her outside at the car; because the rule is: \u201cYou don\u2019t leave the house until we say goodbye, hug, kiss,\u201d\u2014the whole nine yards; but it never happened that day. That evening, when I came home, I received a phone call from Emanuel Church, saying that there was some shooting going on around the church.<\/p>\n<p>I dropped the phone, and I just got in my car. I got to Emanuel in about five minutes, because we live in the downtown area. However, one of the police officers explained to me that they took everybody out of the church and took them to the hotel, which was adjacent to the church. I ran to the hotel, trying to find her. When I got there, I saw Sister Polly Sheppard; she was one of the survivors. I saw Felicia Sanders, another survivor, and her grandchild, another survivor. Felicia just looked at me and she said, \u201cAnthony, Myra\u2019s gone.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Of course, I didn\u2019t accept it right away. I ran toward the church. I got to the gate, and I was about\/maybe five feet away from the door, where the police officers were back and forth\/back and forth. Somebody snatched me. It took five people to hold me down, because I was determined to get in that church. I just kept explaining to them that my wife was in there, and I needed to get in there.<\/p>\n<p>I asked a lot of questions. Nobody was able to give me any answers. I was an agent for 27 years. I already knew, not getting any answers, that she was dead. I just fell down on the ground; I just started crying. You know, I just wallowed; I just lost control. \u201cOh, boy,\u201d\u2014I just kept saying\u2014\u201cI don\u2019t know what to do.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Then I heard a voice say, \u201cGet up!\u201d\u2014I thought maybe one of the first responders. I heard it a second time, so I looked around\u2014still didn\u2019t see anybody. Third time, I knew who it was; it was God. He was telling me, \u201cGet up!\u201d I got up, and He\u2019s telling me to remember the sermons I used to have in my congregation about when you lose a loved one\u2014your wife, or your husband, or your child\u2014and you love them more than you love God, then what are you going to do?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong> I\u2019m like, \u201cNot tonight.\u201d I really didn\u2019t want to hear anything He had to say, but He just kept coming at me. He gave me a Scripture: Saint Luke, the 17<sup>th<\/sup>\u00a0chapter. The Scripture said that things will happen in life\/people will do things in life to cause you to stumble. Woe to the one who causes you to stumble. He would rather have a millstone tied around his neck and thrown into the sea than to bother one of God\u2019s people.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m trying to figure out what that\u2019s about. Then, in the next verse, it says, \u201cForgive.\u201d No matter how many times somebody does something to you, you forgive them. I was still trying to figure out, \u201cWhat does that have to do with me?\u201d; because at that time, I had no idea who the killer was; I didn\u2019t know his name.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t even care about who it was, because all my thoughts were about Myra.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong>\u00a0Right; you are telling me\u2014I want to make sure I understand this correctly\u2014you\u2019re telling me that you\u2019re outside of the church when God is speaking to you about forgiving, and you don\u2019t even know the full picture.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong> You don\u2019t have the full picture; but yet, God, in His love for you, reaches down and prepares you for what you are about to find out; and He tells you to forgive?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes; \u201cForgive\u201d; and I\u2019m trying to figure out, \u201cWhy? Who do I have to forgive?\u201d You know, I really didn\u2019t want to hear what He had to say that night; but I took the Scripture, and I read it, and I examined it. I preached it that Sunday, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Before I preached that sermon on Sunday, 48 hours after the tragedy, we had to go to a bond hearing. Of course, I was not going. My daughter and son came to me and said, \u201cFather, they\u2019re having a bond hearing, and you\u2019re not so sure.\u201d They said, \u201cWell, we\u2019re getting ready to go.\u201d I said, \u201cGood, because I\u2019m not going.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong> My daughter came to me and said, \u201cWell, Father, if you don\u2019t go, I may have to go without you.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cOh, boy.\u201d You know, she\u2019s my baby girl; I wanted to be there for them. I knew\u2014so I got up, and I went. I told them\u2014on the way to the bond hearing\u2014I was very adamant about them keeping their mouths closed. I said, \u201cI don\u2019t want you to say <em>anything<\/em>. We\u2019re not going to be there very long. We\u2019re going to be there for a short time.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>We went; sat down. I was looking at my watch, because I was ready to go! First person to speak was Nadine, whose mother was one of the victims, Ethel Lance. She told Dylann, \u201cI forgive you. The Lord have mercy on your soul.\u201d I was like, \u201cYou know, that\u2019s enough.\u201d I looked at my kids and said, \u201cLet\u2019s go.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Again, the Lord said, \u201cGet up; I have something to say.\u201d I got up; and on my way to the podium, I\u2019m talking to Him, saying, \u201cWell, You better tell me what You have to say, because I don\u2019t have <em>anything<\/em> to say.\u201d All I can remember is saying, \u201cSon, I forgive you. My family forgives you, but we would like you to take this opportunity to repent. Confess and repent. Give your life to the One it means the most to, Christ. He can change your life; He can change your attitude; He can change your ways. You are in a lot of trouble right now; but if you do that, everything else will be okay.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>As soon as I said that\u2014I mean, <em>immediately<\/em>\u2014I mean, my body was trembling. It was just like only Dylann and I were in the room; nobody else was there. All I can remember is hate and anger\u2014everything that I was feeling, you know, because I was a little upset\u2014I had this peace. I mean, I was so peaceful; He just took it all away\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong>\u00a0\u2014in that moment?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong>\u00a0\u2014in that moment! That peace that passes all understanding in Christ Jesus\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong> \u2014is real!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s real.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong>\u00a0I mean, it\u2019s\u00a0<em>real<\/em>. I preached that sermon\u2014I don\u2019t know how many times\u2014I preached about forgiveness I don\u2019t know how many times. I thought we had it, but we didn\u2019t have it. But I had it that day; I know what it feels like. I mean, I <em>felt<\/em> it; and I still have it today; I still feel it today.<\/p>\n<p>That peace enables me to move forward in my life; it enables my children to move forward. It enabled the Charleston community to move forward. You know, just the act of forgiveness\u2014it brought our city together.<\/p>\n<p>[Studio]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michelle:<\/strong> Can you imagine that anguish for Pastor Anthony Thompson? You know, he was married to Myra, had children with her; it was this typical family. There was love, and joy, and happiness. Of course, there were some struggles; there were spites\u2014you know, there always is\u2014but in the blink of an eye, it all changed. Pastor Thompson had to make a choice to forgive or not to forgive.<\/p>\n<p>You know, we need to take a break; but when we come back, we\u2019re going to hear someone else\u2019s story of forgiveness. Then we\u2019re going to hear more from Pastor Thompson on <em>how <\/em>to forgive\/what that looks like. I\u2019ll be back in two minutes with more on forgiveness.<\/p>\n<p>[Radio Station Spot Break]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong> I mean, we all have done things wrong. Even with my wife\u2014I\u2019m not angry with him; you know? I thank God we have a God, because she\u2019s okay. She\u2019s not with me; oh, yes; I\u2019ll miss her! But I would never want her to come back here; you know? I\u2019ll just wait until my turn comes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michelle:<\/strong> Welcome back to <em>FamilyLife This Week. <\/em>I\u2019m Michelle Hill. You know, it\u2019s not every day that your lifelong partner is killed, and you are faced with the future of <em>extreme<\/em> loss. Sometimes that loss isn\u2019t as monumental as Pastor Anthony Thompson\u2019s loss, but maybe you\u2019re dealing with pain and loss that seems just as consuming. Maybe it\u2019s pain from childhood\u2014pain from parents who didn\u2019t parent\/pain because they didn\u2019t protect you from the outside world.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s the story from Mary DeMuth. Mary is an author, speaker, podcaster, and artist; but before she was all of that, she was a little girl\/a little girl carrying a big burden. Here\u2019s Mary DeMuth, talking with Dennis Rainey and Bob Lepine. By the way, what Mary has to say is disturbing. For some of you, it might trigger some memories; it might trigger some hurt and pain, so please make sure to listen with extreme discernment.<\/p>\n<p>[Previous <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> Broadcast]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mary:<\/strong> I grew up in a home that was very unsafe. There was a lot of substance abuse going on at that time. I just never felt protected.\u00a0I was an only child, so I felt incredibly lonely. I think, maybe, if I'd had some siblings, things would have been a little bit different.<\/p>\n<p>When I was five, things got really bad. I had been removed from the home for a while, and then I went back into the home; and it was just a chaotic environment.\u00a0And during that year, I would go to a babysitter's house. During that time, the babysitter would allow these certain boys to come over and play; and they molested me for a year.<\/p>\n<p>It took me a really long time to be able to tell the babysitter that these things were happening to me. It took everything within me; because God, even at that point, had seared this white-hot conscience into my heart. I knew that the word that they were using to describe what they were doing was a swear word. I was so afraid of saying that swear word, so it took me a while to share with the babysitter what was going on.<\/p>\n<p>When I finally whispered the swear word in her ear, she said, \"I will tell your mother\"; and then it continued; <em>she<\/em> [babysitter] allowed it to continue. Later, of course, I found out, obviously to the credit of my mother, that the babysitter never told my mom that those things were going on. But even in that time, I was acting out\u2014and I was having all those symptoms of a child, who was being sexually abused\u2014but because things were so chaotic in my home, nobody knew.<\/p>\n<p>And then, when I was ten years old, my father died; and my mom had been divorced twice by then. He was my real father, and I would see him on weekends once in a while; but there is something about\u2014and I think other listeners, who have had parents die when they're young\u2014there's something about having your dad die when you are ten years old, that just makes you always think you are always going to die. I just grew up with this feeling of\u2014I didn't really know about Jesus; I didn't know about heaven; I didn't know about hell\u2014but I was <em>petrified<\/em> of dying.<\/p>\n<p>That was kind of a controlling metaphor of my life for all that period of time, just this little girl, who was afraid, lonely, and shaking. Sometimes, I would cry at night about my father dying; and my mom, who was having her own struggles at the time, would just say, \"Don't cry anymore; you should be over it.\u201d It was just a really lonely upbringing.<\/p>\n<p>After I became a Christian, I just thought\u2014first of all, I'm freaked out and scared\u2014\u201cI just don't want to do this; I'm afraid!\u201d But the biggest fear was, \u201cWill I duplicate this?\u00a0Will I end up being what my parents were?\u2014that my broken parents were?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> One of the things you have to do is heal your heart; and that, for you, was the beginning step.\u00a0You had to go forgive your parents.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mary:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> How in the world did that happen?\u2014I mean, I'm just thinking back to all that had happened\u2014that was a big step for you; wasn't it?\u2019<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mary:<\/strong>\u00a0It was a <em>huge<\/em> step, and it was work that I had started right after I became a Christian. I had a <em>good<\/em> youth pastor, who said\u2014first of all\u2014he said, \u201cYou\u2019re under your mother\u2019s authority, and you need to ask her where <em>she<\/em> wants you to go to college.\u201d That was very difficult for me, because I just wanted to go to Bible college. I didn\u2019t want to go to a secular university at all.<\/p>\n<p>I chose to obey the youth pastor, in a sense\u2014and I think, also, the Lord\u2014because the Lord really worked through that situation. I just said, \u201cMom, where do you want me to go to college?\u201d My mom told me; and she gave me two choices, and I went there. Right after that was when I started to communicate with her that I forgave her. I did it in several different ways\u2014verbally and through writing\u2014but there was never really a response to that. I still haven\u2019t really received a response to that, but it doesn\u2019t matter; because Jesus wanted me to do it, so I just did it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> I want you to explain what forgiveness looks and feels like in this situation; because I'm thinking there are folks, who are saying, \"Okay, I've tried to express forgiveness,\"\u2014but they're still in an estranged relationship, and they're going\u2014\"Is this forgiveness?\u00a0Have I done it?\"\u00a0You know what I mean?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mary:<\/strong>\u00a0I <em>really<\/em> know what you mean, because I struggled with that. In my mind, for a long period of time, I thought, \"Why aren't we reconciled?\"\u00a0I equated reconciliation with forgiveness. Scripture says, \"So far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men,\" in Romans.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mary:<\/strong> I finally got to that point, where I realized, \u201cI can forgive, but that does not mean that we're going to be in relationship with each other.\u201d That is a two-way street. I can walk 100 miles this way toward my parents; but if they never take a step toward <em>me<\/em>, that is not an indication of whether or not I've forgiven them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0If your mom called you today and said\u2014\"Mary, why don't you come spend a couple of days here?\"\u00a0or \"I'd love to come to France and spend a week with your family,\"\u2014does forgiveness mean you say, \u201cOkay\u201d?\u2014or does it mean you keep some boundaries there?\u00a0What do you do?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mary:<\/strong>\u00a0That is a <em>great<\/em> question. I keep boundaries; because I have\u2014there was a period of time in my 20s, where I thought that to love my mom and for her to come to Jesus, I had to be ultimately vulnerable before her, and share every pain and every hurt.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mary:<\/strong> And I threw my heart out there;\u00a0I did <em>not<\/em> guard my heart at all. I thought, \"To be this Jesus-follower, and to have my mom come to Christ, I've just got to be open\/honest\"; and it did <em>not<\/em> work. I have learned, and matured, and gotten wiser in my older years. I have put some boundaries around my heart, so I'm very limited in the contact I have with her.<\/p>\n<p>That road of forgiveness that we walk on is a<em> long<\/em> road.\u00a0I am still peeling away the layers of the onion of my childhood. Every time I peel another layer away, I weep; and then I have to forgive afresh.\u00a0It was a difficult journey, and I'm still on it today.<\/p>\n<p>[Studio]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michelle:<\/strong> That\u2019s Mary DeMuth, sharing her story of forgiveness with Dennis Rainey and Bob Lepine from several years ago.<\/p>\n<p>You know, today, we\u2019ve heard two really moving stories and two <em>very<\/em> different stories. Anthony and Mary both had to walk through the <em>deep<\/em> waters of forgiveness. Maybe you\u2019re walking through those deep waters right now. You\u2019re on a journey; that journey is <em>painful, <\/em>and you don\u2019t want to forgive! Maybe there\u2019s a part of you knowing you <em>have to<\/em>;because after all, that\u2019s what God commands. But how do you even start that process? Many times, I ask that same question.<\/p>\n<p>Here\u2019s Kim Anthony and Pastor Anthony Thompson, talking once again on forgiveness.<\/p>\n<p>[Previous <em>Unfavorable Odds <\/em>Podcast]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong>\u00a0I did not grow up learning about forgiveness; it was always payback. It wasn\u2019t until I came to know <em>Christ<\/em> that I learned about biblical forgiveness.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong> Will you explain what biblical forgiveness is? What do you say to that person, who wants to forgive, but they\u2019re having a <em>really<\/em> hard time doing so? <em>How<\/em> do they go about forgiving?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony<\/strong>: Okay; when we forgive, it means you\u2019re allowing God to be the judge, not yourself; because only God can judge somebody\u2019s heart. This is why you have to look at that person\u2014well, first of all, you look at yourself\u2014you look at yourself and who you are in the eyes of the Lord. In the eyes of God, we\u2019re what?\u2014all sinners. We may have committed different sins, but we\u2019re all sinners.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s what I looked at when I saw Dylann. You know, I saw him as a sinner in God\u2019s eyes, and I saw myself as a sinner in God\u2019s eyes. If God forgave <em>me<\/em>, why can\u2019t I forgive Dylann?\u00a0<em>That\u2019s<\/em>\u00a0biblical forgiveness.<\/p>\n<p>You know, 1 John says, \u201cIf we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.\u201d But He also says if you don\u2019t forgive men their trespasses, then He can\u2019t forgive you yours\u2014so there it is. I tell people, who can\u2019t forgive\u2014you know, just like you were at that point; and I was at that point, years ago, myself\/many years ago\u2014first of all, you\u2019ve got to give your life to Christ. He\u2019s the One who died on the cross to save you from your sins.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s another thing a lot of people don\u2019t want to do. Some people don\u2019t believe in God; but you have to believe in Him to get this forgiveness, because you can\u2019t forgive yourself. Christ died on the cross; He saved you from your sins, so you\u2019ve got to go to Him. You\u2019ve got to go to Him, ask Him to forgive <em>you<\/em>. Then you have to ask Him to help you to forgive the person you can\u2019t forgive, because you\u2019re not going to be able to do it on your own.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong> Amen.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t do it on my own; He intervened. I had no power! He set me up, so to speak.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong>\u00a0When we choose not to forgive the people who have offended us, we think that we\u2019re harming them in some way\u2014we\u2019re getting the payback\u2014but the truth is we are allowing <em>them<\/em> to control us from afar.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong>\u00a0And as you said, so many people are <em>stuck<\/em> in that place of unforgiveness.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong>\u00a0They are. They are, and that\u2019s one thing they don\u2019t realize. I\u2019m glad that God freed me; because I did not want Dylann to have control of my life, nor my children\u2019s life, nor this community. You reap what you sow\u2014the Bible says that\u2014you cannot overcome evil with evil. It says you have to overcome evil with good; because whatever you do, you\u2019re going to get it back. And you\u2019re going to be <em>stuck<\/em>; you\u2019re going to be stuck in misery until you do it [forgive].<\/p>\n<p>[Studio]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michelle:<\/strong> That is Pastor Anthony Thompson, having a conversation on forgiveness with Kim Anthony, from her podcast, <em>Unfavorable Odds, <\/em>which is part of the FamilyLife Podcast Network. You know, that entire story\u2014Anthony\u2019s story\u2014there are many twists and turns; it was a difficult journey for him. I just encourage you to go listen to that <em>entire<\/em> interview with Kim Anthony. Go to FamilyLifeThisWeek.com; that\u2019s FamilyLifeThisWeek.com.<\/p>\n<p>Hey, I want to leave you with this verse\u2014it\u2019s from Isaiah 61\u2014and I\u2019m going to take this from the King James Version: \u201cTo appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness, that they might be called trees of righteousness\u201d\u2014or in other versions, it\u2019s \u201coaks of righteousness\u201d\u2014\u201cthe planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u201cBeauty from ashes\u201d; you know, if you\u2019re walking through something heavy right now, cry out to God. Plead with Him to give you \u201cbeauty for ashes,\u201d and relieve your heavy spirit and turn it into praise. After all, it was God who sent His Son; that\u2019s the ultimate act of forgiveness that happened on the cross for you and for me. Christ set us <em>free<\/em>\u2014free from our sins and free to forgive others for their sins that affect us. We have more information and resources on forgiveness at our website; go to FamilyLifeThisWeek.com.<\/p>\n<p>Hey, next week, we\u2019re going to hear from Christian music recording artist, Ginny Owens. She\u2019s going to share about what life was like for her parents, raising a blind and <em>fearless<\/em> daughter. And we\u2019re going to hear from a few other parents of special needs children as they share the joys and also the challenges. I hope you can join us for that.<\/p>\n<p>Thanks for listening. I want to thank the president of FamilyLife, David Robbins, along with our station partners around the country. A big \u201cThank you!\u201d to our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and to our producer, Marques Holt. Justin Adams is our mastering engineer, and Megan Martin is our production coordinator.<\/p>\n<p>Our program is a production of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, and our mission is to effectively develop godly families who change the world one home at a time.<\/p>\n<p>I'm Michelle Hill, inviting you to join us again next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife This Week.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"blank\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. 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Thompson and Mary DeMuth tell their devastating stories that require heroic--ongoing--forgiveness.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/flw\/flw2020-10-03.pdf","transcript_content":"<p><strong>Michelle:<\/strong> When Reverend Anthony Thompson\u2019s wife, Myra, was killed by white supremacist, Dylann Roof, he was forced to make a choice that every Christian needs to face\u2014to forgive or not to forgive. Here\u2019s Reverend Thompson.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong> When we forgive, you\u2019re allowing God to be the judge\/not yourself. Only God can judge somebody\u2019s heart. This is why you have to look at that person\u2014well, first of all, you look at yourself\u2014you look at yourself and who you are in the eyes of the Lord. In the eyes of God, we are what?\u2014all sinners. You know, we may have committed different sins, but we\u2019re all sinners.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s what I looked at when I saw Dylann. You know, I saw him as a sinner in God\u2019s eyes, and I saw myself as a sinner in God\u2019s eyes. If God forgave <em>me<\/em>, why can\u2019t I forgive Dylann?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michelle:<\/strong> Today, we\u2019re going to talk about forgiveness\u2014not just every day sort of garden-variety forgiveness\u2014but forgiveness in those hard places\/really hard places on this edition of <em>FamilyLife This Week<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>Welcome to <em>FamilyLife This Week.<\/em> I\u2019m Michelle Hill. You know, I\u2019ve been contemplating forgiveness lately. There\u2019s someone in my life who has been, well, rubbing me the wrong way; and there\u2019s been a lot of hurt.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Keith [sound engineer]:<\/strong> I\u2019m sorry, Michelle.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michelle:<\/strong> Thanks, Keith. Yes, I didn\u2019t want to share; but it was <em>you<\/em>. There\u2019s been a lot\u2014you know it\u2019s <em>not <\/em>him; right?\u2014there\u2019s been a lot of hurt, and that hurt can fester. Interestingly enough, while I\u2019ve been walking this season, I\u2019ve been also reading through the Old Testament. I\u2019ve been watching God forgive the Israelites over, and over, and over, and over. Do you get the idea?\u2014it\u2019s over and over and over\u2014like continually\/like <em>all<\/em> the time. Boy, were they some ungrateful people <em>and<\/em> forgetful people; they kept forgetting God! Yet He continued to forgive them.<\/p>\n<p>You know, for God, forgiveness is just who He is!\u2014it\u2019s part of His character. But to human beings, like you and me, forgiveness is a process. At times, it\u2019s a <em>chore<\/em>; but it\u2019s always <em>freeing<\/em>. I want to explore this forgiveness today, mostly because <em>I<\/em> need some encouragement; and I thought, \u201cWell, maybe you do too.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>You know, as I said a second ago, forgiveness is a process. It doesn\u2019t always seem like it\u2019s the natural thing to do, but it is something that God commands us to do. When God says, \u201cForgive,\u201d well, we need to forgive. That seems so easy; right?<\/p>\n<p>Well, for Pastor Anthony Thompson, he was faced with forgiveness during the most pivotal time of his life. Pastor Thompson talked with Kim Anthony on her podcast, <em>Unfavorable Odds, <\/em>that\u2019s on the FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> Podcast Network. Pastor Thompson shared about a day that changed his life\u2014a day that was marked by <em>incredible<\/em> loss. Here\u2019s Kim\u2019s conversation with Pastor Anthony Thompson.<\/p>\n<p>[Previous <em>Unfavorable Odds <\/em>Podcast]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>I want to start with the events of June 17, 2015. Your wife, Myra, was excited about some things that were going on in her life.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes; well, we were having a good day. She was very excited; she had this great big smile\u2014I mean, just blooming with joy. Normally, we would walk each other to the door: say goodbye, give a kiss, and \u201cLove you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That particular day, for some reason, I couldn\u2019t get to the door. She told me to meet her outside at the car; because the rule is: \u201cYou don\u2019t leave the house until we say goodbye, hug, kiss,\u201d\u2014the whole nine yards; but it never happened that day. That evening, when I came home, I received a phone call from Emanuel Church, saying that there was some shooting going on around the church.<\/p>\n<p>I dropped the phone, and I just got in my car. I got to Emanuel in about five minutes, because we live in the downtown area. However, one of the police officers explained to me that they took everybody out of the church and took them to the hotel, which was adjacent to the church. I ran to the hotel, trying to find her. When I got there, I saw Sister Polly Sheppard; she was one of the survivors. I saw Felicia Sanders, another survivor, and her grandchild, another survivor. Felicia just looked at me and she said, \u201cAnthony, Myra\u2019s gone.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Of course, I didn\u2019t accept it right away. I ran toward the church. I got to the gate, and I was about\/maybe five feet away from the door, where the police officers were back and forth\/back and forth. Somebody snatched me. It took five people to hold me down, because I was determined to get in that church. I just kept explaining to them that my wife was in there, and I needed to get in there.<\/p>\n<p>I asked a lot of questions. Nobody was able to give me any answers. I was an agent for 27 years. I already knew, not getting any answers, that she was dead. I just fell down on the ground; I just started crying. You know, I just wallowed; I just lost control. \u201cOh, boy,\u201d\u2014I just kept saying\u2014\u201cI don\u2019t know what to do.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Then I heard a voice say, \u201cGet up!\u201d\u2014I thought maybe one of the first responders. I heard it a second time, so I looked around\u2014still didn\u2019t see anybody. Third time, I knew who it was; it was God. He was telling me, \u201cGet up!\u201d I got up, and He\u2019s telling me to remember the sermons I used to have in my congregation about when you lose a loved one\u2014your wife, or your husband, or your child\u2014and you love them more than you love God, then what are you going to do?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong> I\u2019m like, \u201cNot tonight.\u201d I really didn\u2019t want to hear anything He had to say, but He just kept coming at me. He gave me a Scripture: Saint Luke, the 17<sup>th<\/sup>\u00a0chapter. The Scripture said that things will happen in life\/people will do things in life to cause you to stumble. Woe to the one who causes you to stumble. He would rather have a millstone tied around his neck and thrown into the sea than to bother one of God\u2019s people.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m trying to figure out what that\u2019s about. Then, in the next verse, it says, \u201cForgive.\u201d No matter how many times somebody does something to you, you forgive them. I was still trying to figure out, \u201cWhat does that have to do with me?\u201d; because at that time, I had no idea who the killer was; I didn\u2019t know his name.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t even care about who it was, because all my thoughts were about Myra.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong>\u00a0Right; you are telling me\u2014I want to make sure I understand this correctly\u2014you\u2019re telling me that you\u2019re outside of the church when God is speaking to you about forgiving, and you don\u2019t even know the full picture.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong> You don\u2019t have the full picture; but yet, God, in His love for you, reaches down and prepares you for what you are about to find out; and He tells you to forgive?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes; \u201cForgive\u201d; and I\u2019m trying to figure out, \u201cWhy? Who do I have to forgive?\u201d You know, I really didn\u2019t want to hear what He had to say that night; but I took the Scripture, and I read it, and I examined it. I preached it that Sunday, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Before I preached that sermon on Sunday, 48 hours after the tragedy, we had to go to a bond hearing. Of course, I was not going. My daughter and son came to me and said, \u201cFather, they\u2019re having a bond hearing, and you\u2019re not so sure.\u201d They said, \u201cWell, we\u2019re getting ready to go.\u201d I said, \u201cGood, because I\u2019m not going.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong> My daughter came to me and said, \u201cWell, Father, if you don\u2019t go, I may have to go without you.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cOh, boy.\u201d You know, she\u2019s my baby girl; I wanted to be there for them. I knew\u2014so I got up, and I went. I told them\u2014on the way to the bond hearing\u2014I was very adamant about them keeping their mouths closed. I said, \u201cI don\u2019t want you to say <em>anything<\/em>. We\u2019re not going to be there very long. We\u2019re going to be there for a short time.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>We went; sat down. I was looking at my watch, because I was ready to go! First person to speak was Nadine, whose mother was one of the victims, Ethel Lance. She told Dylann, \u201cI forgive you. The Lord have mercy on your soul.\u201d I was like, \u201cYou know, that\u2019s enough.\u201d I looked at my kids and said, \u201cLet\u2019s go.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Again, the Lord said, \u201cGet up; I have something to say.\u201d I got up; and on my way to the podium, I\u2019m talking to Him, saying, \u201cWell, You better tell me what You have to say, because I don\u2019t have <em>anything<\/em> to say.\u201d All I can remember is saying, \u201cSon, I forgive you. My family forgives you, but we would like you to take this opportunity to repent. Confess and repent. Give your life to the One it means the most to, Christ. He can change your life; He can change your attitude; He can change your ways. You are in a lot of trouble right now; but if you do that, everything else will be okay.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>As soon as I said that\u2014I mean, <em>immediately<\/em>\u2014I mean, my body was trembling. It was just like only Dylann and I were in the room; nobody else was there. All I can remember is hate and anger\u2014everything that I was feeling, you know, because I was a little upset\u2014I had this peace. I mean, I was so peaceful; He just took it all away\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong>\u00a0\u2014in that moment?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong>\u00a0\u2014in that moment! That peace that passes all understanding in Christ Jesus\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong> \u2014is real!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s real.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong>\u00a0I mean, it\u2019s\u00a0<em>real<\/em>. I preached that sermon\u2014I don\u2019t know how many times\u2014I preached about forgiveness I don\u2019t know how many times. I thought we had it, but we didn\u2019t have it. But I had it that day; I know what it feels like. I mean, I <em>felt<\/em> it; and I still have it today; I still feel it today.<\/p>\n<p>That peace enables me to move forward in my life; it enables my children to move forward. It enabled the Charleston community to move forward. You know, just the act of forgiveness\u2014it brought our city together.<\/p>\n<p>[Studio]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michelle:<\/strong> Can you imagine that anguish for Pastor Anthony Thompson? You know, he was married to Myra, had children with her; it was this typical family. There was love, and joy, and happiness. Of course, there were some struggles; there were spites\u2014you know, there always is\u2014but in the blink of an eye, it all changed. Pastor Thompson had to make a choice to forgive or not to forgive.<\/p>\n<p>You know, we need to take a break; but when we come back, we\u2019re going to hear someone else\u2019s story of forgiveness. Then we\u2019re going to hear more from Pastor Thompson on <em>how <\/em>to forgive\/what that looks like. I\u2019ll be back in two minutes with more on forgiveness.<\/p>\n<p>[Radio Station Spot Break]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong> I mean, we all have done things wrong. Even with my wife\u2014I\u2019m not angry with him; you know? I thank God we have a God, because she\u2019s okay. She\u2019s not with me; oh, yes; I\u2019ll miss her! But I would never want her to come back here; you know? I\u2019ll just wait until my turn comes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michelle:<\/strong> Welcome back to <em>FamilyLife This Week. <\/em>I\u2019m Michelle Hill. You know, it\u2019s not every day that your lifelong partner is killed, and you are faced with the future of <em>extreme<\/em> loss. Sometimes that loss isn\u2019t as monumental as Pastor Anthony Thompson\u2019s loss, but maybe you\u2019re dealing with pain and loss that seems just as consuming. Maybe it\u2019s pain from childhood\u2014pain from parents who didn\u2019t parent\/pain because they didn\u2019t protect you from the outside world.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s the story from Mary DeMuth. Mary is an author, speaker, podcaster, and artist; but before she was all of that, she was a little girl\/a little girl carrying a big burden. Here\u2019s Mary DeMuth, talking with Dennis Rainey and Bob Lepine. By the way, what Mary has to say is disturbing. For some of you, it might trigger some memories; it might trigger some hurt and pain, so please make sure to listen with extreme discernment.<\/p>\n<p>[Previous <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> Broadcast]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mary:<\/strong> I grew up in a home that was very unsafe. There was a lot of substance abuse going on at that time. I just never felt protected.\u00a0I was an only child, so I felt incredibly lonely. I think, maybe, if I'd had some siblings, things would have been a little bit different.<\/p>\n<p>When I was five, things got really bad. I had been removed from the home for a while, and then I went back into the home; and it was just a chaotic environment.\u00a0And during that year, I would go to a babysitter's house. During that time, the babysitter would allow these certain boys to come over and play; and they molested me for a year.<\/p>\n<p>It took me a really long time to be able to tell the babysitter that these things were happening to me. It took everything within me; because God, even at that point, had seared this white-hot conscience into my heart. I knew that the word that they were using to describe what they were doing was a swear word. I was so afraid of saying that swear word, so it took me a while to share with the babysitter what was going on.<\/p>\n<p>When I finally whispered the swear word in her ear, she said, \"I will tell your mother\"; and then it continued; <em>she<\/em> [babysitter] allowed it to continue. Later, of course, I found out, obviously to the credit of my mother, that the babysitter never told my mom that those things were going on. But even in that time, I was acting out\u2014and I was having all those symptoms of a child, who was being sexually abused\u2014but because things were so chaotic in my home, nobody knew.<\/p>\n<p>And then, when I was ten years old, my father died; and my mom had been divorced twice by then. He was my real father, and I would see him on weekends once in a while; but there is something about\u2014and I think other listeners, who have had parents die when they're young\u2014there's something about having your dad die when you are ten years old, that just makes you always think you are always going to die. I just grew up with this feeling of\u2014I didn't really know about Jesus; I didn't know about heaven; I didn't know about hell\u2014but I was <em>petrified<\/em> of dying.<\/p>\n<p>That was kind of a controlling metaphor of my life for all that period of time, just this little girl, who was afraid, lonely, and shaking. Sometimes, I would cry at night about my father dying; and my mom, who was having her own struggles at the time, would just say, \"Don't cry anymore; you should be over it.\u201d It was just a really lonely upbringing.<\/p>\n<p>After I became a Christian, I just thought\u2014first of all, I'm freaked out and scared\u2014\u201cI just don't want to do this; I'm afraid!\u201d But the biggest fear was, \u201cWill I duplicate this?\u00a0Will I end up being what my parents were?\u2014that my broken parents were?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> One of the things you have to do is heal your heart; and that, for you, was the beginning step.\u00a0You had to go forgive your parents.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mary:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> How in the world did that happen?\u2014I mean, I'm just thinking back to all that had happened\u2014that was a big step for you; wasn't it?\u2019<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mary:<\/strong>\u00a0It was a <em>huge<\/em> step, and it was work that I had started right after I became a Christian. I had a <em>good<\/em> youth pastor, who said\u2014first of all\u2014he said, \u201cYou\u2019re under your mother\u2019s authority, and you need to ask her where <em>she<\/em> wants you to go to college.\u201d That was very difficult for me, because I just wanted to go to Bible college. I didn\u2019t want to go to a secular university at all.<\/p>\n<p>I chose to obey the youth pastor, in a sense\u2014and I think, also, the Lord\u2014because the Lord really worked through that situation. I just said, \u201cMom, where do you want me to go to college?\u201d My mom told me; and she gave me two choices, and I went there. Right after that was when I started to communicate with her that I forgave her. I did it in several different ways\u2014verbally and through writing\u2014but there was never really a response to that. I still haven\u2019t really received a response to that, but it doesn\u2019t matter; because Jesus wanted me to do it, so I just did it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> I want you to explain what forgiveness looks and feels like in this situation; because I'm thinking there are folks, who are saying, \"Okay, I've tried to express forgiveness,\"\u2014but they're still in an estranged relationship, and they're going\u2014\"Is this forgiveness?\u00a0Have I done it?\"\u00a0You know what I mean?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mary:<\/strong>\u00a0I <em>really<\/em> know what you mean, because I struggled with that. In my mind, for a long period of time, I thought, \"Why aren't we reconciled?\"\u00a0I equated reconciliation with forgiveness. Scripture says, \"So far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men,\" in Romans.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mary:<\/strong> I finally got to that point, where I realized, \u201cI can forgive, but that does not mean that we're going to be in relationship with each other.\u201d That is a two-way street. I can walk 100 miles this way toward my parents; but if they never take a step toward <em>me<\/em>, that is not an indication of whether or not I've forgiven them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0If your mom called you today and said\u2014\"Mary, why don't you come spend a couple of days here?\"\u00a0or \"I'd love to come to France and spend a week with your family,\"\u2014does forgiveness mean you say, \u201cOkay\u201d?\u2014or does it mean you keep some boundaries there?\u00a0What do you do?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mary:<\/strong>\u00a0That is a <em>great<\/em> question. I keep boundaries; because I have\u2014there was a period of time in my 20s, where I thought that to love my mom and for her to come to Jesus, I had to be ultimately vulnerable before her, and share every pain and every hurt.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mary:<\/strong> And I threw my heart out there;\u00a0I did <em>not<\/em> guard my heart at all. I thought, \"To be this Jesus-follower, and to have my mom come to Christ, I've just got to be open\/honest\"; and it did <em>not<\/em> work. I have learned, and matured, and gotten wiser in my older years. I have put some boundaries around my heart, so I'm very limited in the contact I have with her.<\/p>\n<p>That road of forgiveness that we walk on is a<em> long<\/em> road.\u00a0I am still peeling away the layers of the onion of my childhood. Every time I peel another layer away, I weep; and then I have to forgive afresh.\u00a0It was a difficult journey, and I'm still on it today.<\/p>\n<p>[Studio]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michelle:<\/strong> That\u2019s Mary DeMuth, sharing her story of forgiveness with Dennis Rainey and Bob Lepine from several years ago.<\/p>\n<p>You know, today, we\u2019ve heard two really moving stories and two <em>very<\/em> different stories. Anthony and Mary both had to walk through the <em>deep<\/em> waters of forgiveness. Maybe you\u2019re walking through those deep waters right now. You\u2019re on a journey; that journey is <em>painful, <\/em>and you don\u2019t want to forgive! Maybe there\u2019s a part of you knowing you <em>have to<\/em>;because after all, that\u2019s what God commands. But how do you even start that process? Many times, I ask that same question.<\/p>\n<p>Here\u2019s Kim Anthony and Pastor Anthony Thompson, talking once again on forgiveness.<\/p>\n<p>[Previous <em>Unfavorable Odds <\/em>Podcast]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong>\u00a0I did not grow up learning about forgiveness; it was always payback. It wasn\u2019t until I came to know <em>Christ<\/em> that I learned about biblical forgiveness.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong> Will you explain what biblical forgiveness is? What do you say to that person, who wants to forgive, but they\u2019re having a <em>really<\/em> hard time doing so? <em>How<\/em> do they go about forgiving?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony<\/strong>: Okay; when we forgive, it means you\u2019re allowing God to be the judge, not yourself; because only God can judge somebody\u2019s heart. This is why you have to look at that person\u2014well, first of all, you look at yourself\u2014you look at yourself and who you are in the eyes of the Lord. In the eyes of God, we\u2019re what?\u2014all sinners. We may have committed different sins, but we\u2019re all sinners.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s what I looked at when I saw Dylann. You know, I saw him as a sinner in God\u2019s eyes, and I saw myself as a sinner in God\u2019s eyes. If God forgave <em>me<\/em>, why can\u2019t I forgive Dylann?\u00a0<em>That\u2019s<\/em>\u00a0biblical forgiveness.<\/p>\n<p>You know, 1 John says, \u201cIf we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.\u201d But He also says if you don\u2019t forgive men their trespasses, then He can\u2019t forgive you yours\u2014so there it is. I tell people, who can\u2019t forgive\u2014you know, just like you were at that point; and I was at that point, years ago, myself\/many years ago\u2014first of all, you\u2019ve got to give your life to Christ. He\u2019s the One who died on the cross to save you from your sins.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s another thing a lot of people don\u2019t want to do. Some people don\u2019t believe in God; but you have to believe in Him to get this forgiveness, because you can\u2019t forgive yourself. Christ died on the cross; He saved you from your sins, so you\u2019ve got to go to Him. You\u2019ve got to go to Him, ask Him to forgive <em>you<\/em>. Then you have to ask Him to help you to forgive the person you can\u2019t forgive, because you\u2019re not going to be able to do it on your own.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong> Amen.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t do it on my own; He intervened. I had no power! He set me up, so to speak.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong>\u00a0When we choose not to forgive the people who have offended us, we think that we\u2019re harming them in some way\u2014we\u2019re getting the payback\u2014but the truth is we are allowing <em>them<\/em> to control us from afar.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kim:<\/strong>\u00a0And as you said, so many people are <em>stuck<\/em> in that place of unforgiveness.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Anthony:<\/strong>\u00a0They are. They are, and that\u2019s one thing they don\u2019t realize. I\u2019m glad that God freed me; because I did not want Dylann to have control of my life, nor my children\u2019s life, nor this community. You reap what you sow\u2014the Bible says that\u2014you cannot overcome evil with evil. It says you have to overcome evil with good; because whatever you do, you\u2019re going to get it back. And you\u2019re going to be <em>stuck<\/em>; you\u2019re going to be stuck in misery until you do it [forgive].<\/p>\n<p>[Studio]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michelle:<\/strong> That is Pastor Anthony Thompson, having a conversation on forgiveness with Kim Anthony, from her podcast, <em>Unfavorable Odds, <\/em>which is part of the FamilyLife Podcast Network. You know, that entire story\u2014Anthony\u2019s story\u2014there are many twists and turns; it was a difficult journey for him. I just encourage you to go listen to that <em>entire<\/em> interview with Kim Anthony. Go to FamilyLifeThisWeek.com; that\u2019s FamilyLifeThisWeek.com.<\/p>\n<p>Hey, I want to leave you with this verse\u2014it\u2019s from Isaiah 61\u2014and I\u2019m going to take this from the King James Version: \u201cTo appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness, that they might be called trees of righteousness\u201d\u2014or in other versions, it\u2019s \u201coaks of righteousness\u201d\u2014\u201cthe planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u201cBeauty from ashes\u201d; you know, if you\u2019re walking through something heavy right now, cry out to God. Plead with Him to give you \u201cbeauty for ashes,\u201d and relieve your heavy spirit and turn it into praise. After all, it was God who sent His Son; that\u2019s the ultimate act of forgiveness that happened on the cross for you and for me. Christ set us <em>free<\/em>\u2014free from our sins and free to forgive others for their sins that affect us. We have more information and resources on forgiveness at our website; go to FamilyLifeThisWeek.com.<\/p>\n<p>Hey, next week, we\u2019re going to hear from Christian music recording artist, Ginny Owens. She\u2019s going to share about what life was like for her parents, raising a blind and <em>fearless<\/em> daughter. And we\u2019re going to hear from a few other parents of special needs children as they share the joys and also the challenges. I hope you can join us for that.<\/p>\n<p>Thanks for listening. I want to thank the president of FamilyLife, David Robbins, along with our station partners around the country. A big \u201cThank you!\u201d to our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and to our producer, Marques Holt. Justin Adams is our mastering engineer, and Megan Martin is our production coordinator.<\/p>\n<p>Our program is a production of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, and our mission is to effectively develop godly families who change the world one home at a time.<\/p>\n<p>I'm Michelle Hill, inviting you to join us again next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife This Week.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"blank\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. 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