{"id":306417,"date":"2020-09-18T07:00:05","date_gmt":"2020-09-18T11:00:05","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/telling-the-whole-truth\/"},"modified":"2020-09-18T07:00:05","modified_gmt":"2020-09-18T11:00:05","slug":"telling-the-whole-truth","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/telling-the-whole-truth\/","title":{"rendered":"Telling The Whole Truth"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Ryan and Selena Frederick discuss transparency in marriage. Ryan explains the career and parenting sacrifices he and Selena have made to pursue a marriage where they are &#8220;fully known and fully loved.&#8221;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-09-18.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:29:40","filesize":"27.16M","filesize_raw":"28478125","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2082,2810,2088,2862],"tags":[2877],"podcast_series":[8392],"cwp_profile":[9559],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-306417","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-communication","category-growing-spiritually","category-romance-and-sex","category-understanding-differences","tag-marriage","podcast_series-see-through-marriage","cwp_profile-ryan-and-selena-frederick","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/306417\/telling-the-whole-truth","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/306417\/telling-the-whole-truth","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"31EQ2aBGzG\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/telling-the-whole-truth\/\">Telling The Whole Truth<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/telling-the-whole-truth\/embed\/#?secret=31EQ2aBGzG\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Telling The Whole Truth&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"31EQ2aBGzG\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-09-18.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-09-18.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> One of the reasons we get married is because there is a longing in each one of us to be fully known and fully loved, but being fully known can be scary too. Here is Ryan Frederick. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Whatever level of fear we feel about being exposed to our spouse\u2014imagine if we held with true regard the holiness and majesty of God and the fact that we are exposed to Him\u2014this verse is compelling believers to say, with confidence, \u201cDraw near to the throne.\u201d Why?\u2014not because you\u2019re worthy; not because you\u2019ve earned it\u2014but it\u2019s through grace that we may receive mercy and find grace and help in our time of need. That same kind of grace is available in our marriage. We can trust that God is going to use our spouse to bring us further along in our walk toward sanctification. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Friday, September 18<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I\u2019m Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. How can a husband and wife create a marriage, where they can draw near to each other in confidence that they will be well loved, even when their spouse sees their shadow side? We\u2019ll talk more about that today with Ryan and Selena Frederick. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. If a wife asks her husband, \u201cSo\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Don\u2019t look at me, Bob. You better look over there at Ann. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, I think both of you can weigh in on this. If a wife says to her husband, \u201cSo how are you really? How are you?\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Ooh, I do ask this question a lot. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> She asks me that <em>all<\/em> the time. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I do! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean that is <em>the<\/em> question on date night. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What is the most common answer a wife is going to get from her husband? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cFine.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cI\u2019m fine.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; Dave said\u2014sometimes, he\u2019ll say, \u201cI don\u2019t know; I think good.\u201d [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What is it that you are looking for when you ask that question? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I want to know <em>so much<\/em>. Poor Dave! I want to know what he\u2019s been thinking about, what he is <em>dreaming<\/em> about, what he is struggling with. This is what I\u2019m <em>longing<\/em> for. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cHow are you?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I just want to have a good steak; you know? I\u2019m like, \u201cReally?! I thought we were just going to go out and enjoy the evening.\u201d I mean, I know what she is longing for now after 40 years; but initially, I would think, \u201cIf we\u2019ve got to talk about it, there is a problem. If you don\u2019t have to talk about it, everything is good. I want everything to be good.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ve <em>learned<\/em> to share. You know, she has helped me; because I was not kidding: \u201cI don\u2019t know; I think I\u2019m good,\u201d\u2014I really don\u2019t know. She\u2019d probe and ask, and then I\u2019d realize, \u201cOh, it was helpful to talk that through.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It\u2019s also interesting with our kids. Our kids have told Dave they long for <em>him<\/em> to ask <em>them<\/em> that question. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We don\u2019t have to go that deep. [Laughter] Seriously? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019ve got some friends joining us, who are now thinking about their next book, which is <em>See-Through Parenting<\/em>. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019ve got Ryan and Selena Frederick joining us, again, on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Guys, welcome back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Hey, thanks for having us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Ryan and Selena are the authors of a new book called <em>See-Through Marriage<\/em>. They are bloggers; they are writers; they live in the Pacific Northwest. They\u2019ve been on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> with us before. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>See-Through Marriage<\/em> is about what Ann is longing for on her dates with Dave, which is this: \u201cTell me everything about you, and let me see the real you and the full you.\u201d What you guys are suggesting in the book is all of us really do want to be known and loved. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yet, most of us spend a lot of time in our marriage trying to keep parts of who we are walled off and hidden from one another. We\u2019ve got to figure out how we break through those barriers so that we can have the kind of naked-and-unashamed marriage that Genesis 2 describes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd one of the things you say in the book is that, in order to have a see-through marriage, we need to, first of all, be able to go a little deeper in our self-understanding than Dave is typically able to do. [Laughter] We\u2019ve got to be able to look and say, \u201cHow are we?\u201d and come up with a better answer than \u201cI think I\u2019m fine, and now we\u2019re done\u201d; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Oh, absolutely. It\u2019s funny that he says that: \u201cWe don\u2019t have to go that deep\u201d; right? \u201cWe don\u2019t have to go <em>there<\/em>; I just want to enjoy a good steak.\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Exactly! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> I think there\u2019s some truth and beauty in that\u2014that we can just enjoy each other\u2014like not every date night has to be this deep like probing of your inner-child\/like finding out what your inner pains are; but on the same note, we can get in the habit of kind of living and floating above everything. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think it is so important\u2014I mean, Andy Crouch actually came up with this term, and the term is \u201cmeaningful risk\u201d\u2014and being known in a way that lets your spouse\u2014in this case, we\u2019re talking about marriage relationships; this also could happen in just any friendship\u2014what the Lord lays on your heart to tell me is actually going to generate change in my own heart; that\u2019s meaningful risk; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think\u2014yes\u2014that\u2019s\/that is the call of biblical marriage, and that\u2019s what see-through marriage is all about. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You guys have kids. How old are your kids? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Six, four, and almost a year. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Okay; some people are thinking, \u201cI have no time for these deep discussions.\u201d You guys are kind of in a lifestyle right now where you\u2019re busy; you\u2019re taxed; your kids are demanding; you\u2019re not sleeping. How do you have these deep conversations in the midst of that kind of lifestyle? [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> He looks over at me. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know; I just talk to Selena while she sleeps. [Laughter] Yes; it\u2019s hard. I think\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> It\u2019s important. I think\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> It\u2019s very important. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u2014I think it\u2019s one of those non-negotiables; right? Like, unfortunately, sometimes, yes, you have to negotiate sleep; right? But connecting with your spouse and being honest and having a rhythm that you go to\u2014like either if it\u2019s once a week\/at least, I would say once a week\u2014you just have to see it as valuable. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you don\u2019t, then we can\u2019t be wondering: \u201cWhy we\u2019re not connecting?\u201d \u201cWhy does our marriage feel like we\u2019re distant?\u201d or \u201c\u2026crumbling?\u201d For that, it\u2019s something you have to fight for, for sure; because if we\u2019re not good\u2014the old saying: \u201cIf Mom and Dad aren\u2019t good, then how is the rest of the house going to be holding together?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Obviously, you just sort of gave us a window into your life; but you\u2019ve got little kids, so it\u2019s crazy. You\u2019ve got a vibrant ministry; so your work is all-consuming, and a lot of it is out of your house\u2014I\u2019m guessing; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Every bit of it\u2014well, yes; just about every bit of it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So how in the world does a couple, living your life, make the marriage and being transparent\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014priority? Obviously, the date is important. Are there other things you guys do? Is there a rhythm that can help other couples? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Actually, I love to speak to this a little bit; because so often, we approach our work\u2014and our work lives\/our careers\u2014as almost like fixed objects in this conversation; right? We\u2019re technically self-employed\u2014we set our own hours; there is some uniqueness there\u2014but I will say, \u201cWork has taken a backseat, almost daily\/at least, three to four times a week.\u201d There are initiatives that just aren\u2019t done; because I\u2019ve just said: \u201cI\u2019m not willing to pay this price,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m not willing to be away from you,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m not willing to be away from our kids,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m not willing to spend the time it takes to get these things done.\u201d A lot of times, in American culture, in particular, we have to fit it around our career. I just want to kill that sacred cow and say, \u201cLook, maybe, career is not the end all\/be all of our existence\u201d; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAside from that, just kind of speaking to that point, mornings have become kind of a rhythm in terms of we try to have morning coffee, where we kind of sit. We do breakfast with our girls, but then they go and get kind of their hair brushed, their teeth brushed, and get dressed\u2014everyone but the infant, I should say\u2014then we sit. Kind of the rule is like, \u201cYou can be here, but you can\u2019t talk; because we\u2019re talking. This is important to us. Your mom and dad\u2014we need to connect\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cso that we can love you well.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Right; which we spoke to another couple, the Jacobsons\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u2014awhile back. They said that their kids\u2014they have nine kids\u2014they said that the one thing that they loved, and just respected, and were so grateful for the boundary of that\u2014like coffee time that their parents had\u2014and said, \u201cLike you can be here, but we\u2019re having this time.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSetting that boundary, I think, for your kids is loving; right? Setting that boundary for your marriage is loving. It\u2019s\/I think it\u2019s a call to holiness on some levels and discipline. I feel like it\u2019s so much of a priority for us that we can\u2019t do without it anymore. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> It just gets funky\u2014Ann, like you were saying\u2014something just is up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> We can\u2019t see straight; we need to connect. We start treating each other poorly; it\u2019s like\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> It\u2019s so obvious. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> \u2014we have to make time for it; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So you take a little time every day to kind of touch base, at least. That\u2019s kind of what you\u2019re saying. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> I mean, we\u2019re not perfect; we try to. If it\u2019s not in the morning, then it\u2019s in the evening. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Selena:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> We\u2019ll sit. Selena is usually reading a book in the evening, and we\u2019ll talk through it. Some conversations go great; some are terrible, depending on how tired I am. One night, she was trying to read me something; and I was just like, \u201cNo offense, but I just don\u2019t care about that right now.\u201d [Laughter] You got really upset, and I had to apologize because you weren\u2019t ready to hear that. Anyway, we learn; we learn. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You know, I\u2019m thinking about listeners, who are hearing us talk about the value of transparency in marriage\u2014and they are thinking back on past relationships; they are thinking back on stuff from their teenage years\u2014and they are going, \u201cI don\u2019t think it\u2019s going to help my relationship if I sit down with my husband tonight and say, \u2018I\u2019ve never really shared with you about this, but let me tell you about this guy I dated when I was a junior in high school.\u2019\u201d It\u2019s like: \u201cDo I really need to kind of just be transparent about everything in order for us to have the kind of marriage we\u2019re supposed to have?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> That\u2019s a really good question; because the tendency is to, as you hear what we\u2019re talking about, to kind of go through the litany of sins that you\u2019ve created\u2014things that you regret or things that you did before you were saved. I don\u2019t know if there is a hard and fast rule for this; but generally, where we lead couples, when they ask us that question is, \u201cWhatever that thing is that is [causing] you to kind of go into your hole,\u201d\u2014right?\u2014\u201cwhich is to hide from one another, or whatever that thing is that is creating dysfunction.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you had a past relationship that was really abusive\u2014and it\u2019s made you fearful in every relationship since, and you\u2019re afraid of your husband or your wife because of that past experience, and you\u2019ve never really been healed from that because you never\u2014then that\u2019s a good opportunity to really be known and experience love in that pain area of your life and experience healing\u2014again, going back to 1 John 1\u2014\u201cso that we can have fellowship and be cleansed from unrighteousness\u201d\u2014not that feeling pain is unrighteousness necessarily\u2014but it\u2019s that fellowship that will help us walk through. Really, we use the word, gospel, as a verb sometimes in our marriage: we gospel each other in that, when we\u2019re feeling that kind of lack of belief, we remind each other who Christ is and everything that He\u2019s done. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTo answer your question, Bob, I don\u2019t know that you just have to create a laundry list and go through the whole thing; but I do think there are areas that you will know the Holy Spirit will prompt you to share for the sake of greater intimacy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> I think there is some repetition sometimes that happens. Sometimes, things will come to mind, and it filters through; but if\u2014like you said with your experience: things kind of coming back to it, and you see it coming back again and again\u2014you\u2019re just like, \u201cMan, this really\u2026\u201d It\u2019s, again, creating those patterns of sort of feeling like you need to hide or these feelings of being afraid, then I would say it\u2019s probably a safe bet that you need to address it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Is there a point that we can over-share?\u2014go into too many details? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes; we call that rehashing the crime scene; right? I\u2019m just going to go back to this example; but men or women, who deal with pornography addiction. There is a certain level that it just stops being appropriate and constructive to share\u2014like, \u201cHey, this is the nature of the addiction\u2026\u201d\u2014some of that stuff is just not edifying in any way nor does it help you get to a place of greater reconciliation. It just kind of begins to hurt even more. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, nothing replaces discernment in these conversations. And if a couple is dealing with something that is so, kind of, damaging and does continue to create pain, then I would highly recommend getting a counselor or a pastor involved so that you are not walking through it alone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know, I\u2019ve also found\u2014and I know you guys write about it in the book\u2014the value of friendships to help us be vulnerable, not only with our friends\u2014of course, hopefully, I have men in my life; Ann has women in her life\u2014but there have been times, where I\u2019ve been so honest with my guys that they\u2019ve looked at me and said, \u201cYou need to tell Ann.\u201d That community\u2014it\u2019s almost like they became counselors: \u201cIron sharpens iron.\u201d Talk about that, because that\u2019s a couple chapters in your book\u2014the value\/the <em>need<\/em> to live in community and how that helps us in our transparency. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Absolutely; I think a lot of times, at least in our experience, I think we had not really lived in true community the first few years of our marriage. We did not have people who kind of knew us. We didn\u2019t have people, who were asking hard questions\u2014but also walking with us, and encouraging, and kind of sharpening us, like you said, to have these conversations\/to go into the fire and to not be afraid\u2014right?\u2014and to share what the Lord has put on our hearts, because our view of God was not\u2014at least, for me, it was easy to see Him more as like a punisher\u2014right?\u2014or someone who is: \u201cIf you say this, these are the consequences\u2026\u201d; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, yes; we do experience the consequence of sin, <em>but<\/em> God doesn\u2019t leave us there. He doesn\u2019t leave the sin like that in us; He sanctifies us. The best way that we\u2019ve learned that and how He does that has been through our community\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u2014through our relationships with other godly men and women and mentors. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> I\u2019m laughing; because I remember writing this part of the book. We had a bit of a burr in our saddle, I\u2019ll say, because we\u2019d experienced so many versions of \u201cChristian community.\u201d So much of it felt inauthentic. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u2014contrived; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> It felt contrived. It felt like\u2014we\u2019re not trying to throw anyone under the bus\u2014because I feel like that\u2019s a cultural thing\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> \u2014right? That\u2019s why we talk about meaningful risk and what it means to have false vulnerability versus meaningful risk. We actually have a\u2014it\u2019s a table in the book that I\u2019ve just found so elucidating in my own life; and it kind of contrasts false vulnerability with meaningful risk. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn a falsely vulnerable setting, you might go around the group, and you\u2019re all sharing: \u201cHow are you doing in life? What\u2019s God doing in your life?\u201d Someone might say, \u201cOh man! Work has been stressful.\u201d Then the group would respond, \u201cWell, let\u2019s pray that you\u2019re not stressed; let\u2019s pray that it all gets better.\u201d The contrast to that\u2014that\u2019s the false vulnerability\u2014because the meaningful risk side is, \u201cWork has been stressful. I\u2019m afraid I\u2019ll lose my job because\u201d\u2014\u201cWhat?\u201d\u2014\u201cI\u2019ve underperformed,\u201d or \u201cbecause I was late on this deadline,\u201d or \u201cbecause my sales numbers are way down,\u201d or \u201cthe kids aren\u2019t learning in the classroom; I\u2019m supposed to be teaching them!\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat that gives us is an actual window\u2014and take that example into any context that you want\u2014but that gives us a window to actually say, \u201cOkay; well, let\u2019s address that fear. Why are you afraid you are going to lose your job?\u201d \u201cOkay; why have you underperformed?\u201d\u00a0 See, that\u2019s meaningful risk versus just kind of sharing just enough to kind of get past the Q&amp;A so they go to the next couple in the group. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s the essence of Christian communities\u2014actually, having a forum to say\u2014\u201cListen, the playing field has been leveled. We\u2019re all sinners saved by grace. Now, here is how we can sharpen each other,\u201d like you said. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think somebody has to take the initiative to that at times. I know that with a group of friends, we were having lunch. I <em>love<\/em> these women; and you know we were talking about all the typical things of kids, and school, and clothes, and all different things. I can be pretty passionate, because I <em>love<\/em> to go deep; we\u2019re all wired in such a different way. I rudely interrupt the conversation; and I say, \u201cCan we stop talking about nothingness?\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Oh, I love that; that\u2019s awesome! [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014which, of course, some people are totally offended. I said, \u201cIt\u2019s not that I don\u2019t want to talk about this sometimes, but I want us to go <em>deeper<\/em>. I want to know what you are afraid of right now, and what you are worrying about the most right now, and how your marriages are.\u201d I can be like a bull sometimes, where I\u2019ll just charge in; and I\u2019ve tried to learn how to do that more tactfully. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYet, I think, sometimes in marriage, one of us\u2014and in our friendships\u2014one of us needs to take that <em>step<\/em> of saying, \u201cI want us to go a little deeper. How do you feel about that? Are you afraid?\u201d \u201cAre you into this with me?\u201d \u201cWould you go there with me?\u201d Maybe, it\u2019s just one friend; but I think it\u2019s really important to do that in our marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat are some of the steps we can take in a relationship when one spouse hasn\u2019t gone there and won\u2019t go there? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Well, as far as the steps go, I think finding, again, our identity in Christ, realizing that He is more glorified the more transparent that we are. If our whole existence is for God\u2019s glory\u2014which we believe it is\u2014then I think that can become the foundation for us to begin initiating those conversations, where those conversations may not feel welcome. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe mentioned 1 John 1. I want to go to John, Chapter 1; this is verse 5\u2014it says: \u201cThe light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.\u201d Alright, so this is again introducing Jesus into the equation. It says, \u201cThere was a man sent from God whose name was John,\u201d\u2014this is John the Baptist\u2014\u201cHe came as a witness to bear witness about the light that all might believe through Him.\u201d John goes through the pain of explaining this; he says he was not the light but came to bear witness about the light. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn the cover of our book, it\u2019s got these\u2014this stained glass window. One of the analogies we use throughout the entire book is that we are all these imperfect shards of glass; right? We have rough edges; we have different shades of color; we have different varying levels of intensity in terms of pigment. We\u2019re all different; right? There is this stained glass window\u2014is only beautiful to the extent that light shines <em>through<\/em> it\u2014so that gives us a whole context in that I can now glorify God even more. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd like you were saying\u2014those kind of chit-chatty conversations\u2014you\u2019re saying, \u201cLet\u2019s go deeper, friends, not so we can just get the juicier details. Let\u2019s go deeper so that we can greater glorify our Creator, the One who is the light.\u201d In going deeper, I think, the motivation is to have a greater glory for God in that instance. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I would add, as a dad, I know it\u2019s been difficult to do that with my adult sons. It takes courage to say, \u201cI want to know your heart.\u201d I think one of the first steps I\u2019ve learned to do is to share my heart. Transparency sort of begets transparency. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Even in a small group, if no one is transparent, everybody just fakes it; and they go home; you know? Most\/many people hide more at church than anywhere else; but if somebody is vulnerable and transparent, it\u2019s like, \u201cOh, I can be that <em>honest<\/em>?\u2014and be fully known and fully loved.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI feel, as a parent, I would encourage dads and moms to really go there. This could be a time to say, \u201cOkay; I really want to know my teenage daughter or son, and I\u2019ve never had the courage to speak transparently with them. I want\u2014I don\u2019t want just a see-through marriage; I want a see-through family, so I\u2019m going to lead there.\u201d I would encourage men: \u201cDo it! Lead!\u201d See what God does. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> What you said, \u201cTransparency begets transparency\u201d\u2014absolutely that\u2019s true. It diffuses that tension there. Now, people feel comfortable because\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> \u2014you\u2019ve been vulnerable; and \u201cNow, I can.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> I definitely think prayer is an obvious one; right?\u2014like praying for your spouse: \u201cGod, soften their heart.\u201d What Dave said about just courage\u2014I would add consistency; because it\u2019s really easy to just get shot down; right? It can be real easy to fall within yourself: \u201cOh, I tried; and it just felt horrible, so I don\u2019t ever want to do that again.\u201d No; keep trying. Remember your identity is rooted in Christ. He is enough; keep trying; keep going, because the consistency, I think, is\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> That\u2019s really good. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u2014where the softening happens even though we may not see it in our spouse; right? God is still, I think, faithful. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I think a lot of us look at the current state of our marriage and go: \u201cYou know, it\u2019s okay. I don\u2019t want to do anything that would make it more challenging. I\u2019m happy with this level of transparency and this level of intimacy. We\u2019ll just live here; and I know there are things, if I shared, maybe, would open; but maybe not\u201d; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cMaybe, we can go deeper and make it <em>better<\/em>.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; \u201cOr maybe, we\u2019ll just stay here and just keep it the way it is.\u201d [Laughter] I think what we want our listeners to hear us saying is: \u201cIt is worth it\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cto risk it, and to go deeper, and to be open and to say, \u2018This is hard, and this is vulnerable. I\u2019m not comfortable even sharing some of this reality of who I am with you; but I\u2019m going to believe that we\u2019ll have a better marriage\/a stronger, deeper, more committed, a more loving marriage.\u2019\u201d One of the things the Bible says is: \u201cLove rejoices in the truth.\u201d As long as there is not truth between you\/as long as there is not this kind of transparency and vulnerability, there\u2019s part of the love that is <em>missing<\/em> from your marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGuys, this has been really helpful. Thanks for taking time to be with us. Thanks for being on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Thank you, guys. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Thank you so much for having us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> I hope our listeners will go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to get a copy of your book, <em>See-Through Marriage: Experiencing the Freedom and Joy of Being Fully Known and Fully Loved<\/em>, by Ryan and Selena Frederick. Again, our website, FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014you can order the book from us online\u2014or call to order: 1-800-FL-TODAY is our number\u20141-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBy the way, we\u2019re going to continue our conversation with Ryan and Selena. We want to talk about transparency when it comes to sexual intimacy in marriage, so that\u2019ll happen online. You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com, and that conversation is available as a podcast. You can download it and listen as we talk about what it looks like to cultivate transparency when it comes to sexual intimacy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFinally, a quick word of thanks today to those of you who have made today\u2019s program possible. We have a small committed group of regular listeners, who have taken the next step and said, \u201cI want to make sure <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> continues to be available in my community, not only for me and for my relationship with my spouse or my family, but I want to make sure it\u2019s here to help others grow in godliness in marriage and in family.\u201d Every time you make a donation, that\u2019s what you are doing. You are investing in the lives of other men and women\u2014husbands and wives\/moms and dads\u2014helping them grow more Christ-like in their marriage relationship and in their parenting. Thanks to those of you who have made today\u2019s program possible. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you are a longtime listener, and you\u2019ve never donated, today would be a great day for you to go to FamilyLifeToday.com; make an online donation; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. We\u2019d like to say, \u201cThank you for your support today,\u201d by sending you a copy of Phil Waldrep\u2019s book, <em>Beyond Betrayal<\/em>. We talked with Phil earlier this week about how we deal with betrayal in a relationship, whether it is a marriage relationship or someone outside of our family. That book is our gift to you today when you make an online donation or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate to the ongoing ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. We hope to hear from you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able, in some form or fashion, to worship together in your local church this weekend. I hope you can join us on Monday when we\u2019re going to talk about how important a dad is in a family. Bryan Loritts has some things to say about that. He\u2019s just written a book called <em>The Dad Difference<\/em>. We\u2019ll talk to Bryan on Monday. I hope you can join us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back Monday for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:29:40"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["27.16M"],"filesize_raw":["28478125"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-306417.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-306417.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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and Selena Frederick discuss transparency in marriage. Ryan explains the career and parenting sacrifices he and Selena have made to pursue a marriage where they are \"fully known and fully loved.\"","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-09-18.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> One of the reasons we get married is because there is a longing in each one of us to be fully known and fully loved, but being fully known can be scary too. Here is Ryan Frederick. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Whatever level of fear we feel about being exposed to our spouse\u2014imagine if we held with true regard the holiness and majesty of God and the fact that we are exposed to Him\u2014this verse is compelling believers to say, with confidence, \u201cDraw near to the throne.\u201d Why?\u2014not because you\u2019re worthy; not because you\u2019ve earned it\u2014but it\u2019s through grace that we may receive mercy and find grace and help in our time of need. That same kind of grace is available in our marriage. We can trust that God is going to use our spouse to bring us further along in our walk toward sanctification. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Friday, September 18<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I\u2019m Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. How can a husband and wife create a marriage, where they can draw near to each other in confidence that they will be well loved, even when their spouse sees their shadow side? We\u2019ll talk more about that today with Ryan and Selena Frederick. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. If a wife asks her husband, \u201cSo\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Don\u2019t look at me, Bob. You better look over there at Ann. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, I think both of you can weigh in on this. If a wife says to her husband, \u201cSo how are you really? How are you?\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Ooh, I do ask this question a lot. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> She asks me that <em>all<\/em> the time. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I do! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean that is <em>the<\/em> question on date night. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What is the most common answer a wife is going to get from her husband? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cFine.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cI\u2019m fine.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; Dave said\u2014sometimes, he\u2019ll say, \u201cI don\u2019t know; I think good.\u201d [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What is it that you are looking for when you ask that question? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I want to know <em>so much<\/em>. Poor Dave! I want to know what he\u2019s been thinking about, what he is <em>dreaming<\/em> about, what he is struggling with. This is what I\u2019m <em>longing<\/em> for. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cHow are you?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I just want to have a good steak; you know? I\u2019m like, \u201cReally?! I thought we were just going to go out and enjoy the evening.\u201d I mean, I know what she is longing for now after 40 years; but initially, I would think, \u201cIf we\u2019ve got to talk about it, there is a problem. If you don\u2019t have to talk about it, everything is good. I want everything to be good.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ve <em>learned<\/em> to share. You know, she has helped me; because I was not kidding: \u201cI don\u2019t know; I think I\u2019m good,\u201d\u2014I really don\u2019t know. She\u2019d probe and ask, and then I\u2019d realize, \u201cOh, it was helpful to talk that through.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It\u2019s also interesting with our kids. Our kids have told Dave they long for <em>him<\/em> to ask <em>them<\/em> that question. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We don\u2019t have to go that deep. [Laughter] Seriously? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019ve got some friends joining us, who are now thinking about their next book, which is <em>See-Through Parenting<\/em>. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019ve got Ryan and Selena Frederick joining us, again, on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Guys, welcome back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Hey, thanks for having us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Ryan and Selena are the authors of a new book called <em>See-Through Marriage<\/em>. They are bloggers; they are writers; they live in the Pacific Northwest. They\u2019ve been on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> with us before. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>See-Through Marriage<\/em> is about what Ann is longing for on her dates with Dave, which is this: \u201cTell me everything about you, and let me see the real you and the full you.\u201d What you guys are suggesting in the book is all of us really do want to be known and loved. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yet, most of us spend a lot of time in our marriage trying to keep parts of who we are walled off and hidden from one another. We\u2019ve got to figure out how we break through those barriers so that we can have the kind of naked-and-unashamed marriage that Genesis 2 describes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd one of the things you say in the book is that, in order to have a see-through marriage, we need to, first of all, be able to go a little deeper in our self-understanding than Dave is typically able to do. [Laughter] We\u2019ve got to be able to look and say, \u201cHow are we?\u201d and come up with a better answer than \u201cI think I\u2019m fine, and now we\u2019re done\u201d; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Oh, absolutely. It\u2019s funny that he says that: \u201cWe don\u2019t have to go that deep\u201d; right? \u201cWe don\u2019t have to go <em>there<\/em>; I just want to enjoy a good steak.\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Exactly! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> I think there\u2019s some truth and beauty in that\u2014that we can just enjoy each other\u2014like not every date night has to be this deep like probing of your inner-child\/like finding out what your inner pains are; but on the same note, we can get in the habit of kind of living and floating above everything. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think it is so important\u2014I mean, Andy Crouch actually came up with this term, and the term is \u201cmeaningful risk\u201d\u2014and being known in a way that lets your spouse\u2014in this case, we\u2019re talking about marriage relationships; this also could happen in just any friendship\u2014what the Lord lays on your heart to tell me is actually going to generate change in my own heart; that\u2019s meaningful risk; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think\u2014yes\u2014that\u2019s\/that is the call of biblical marriage, and that\u2019s what see-through marriage is all about. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You guys have kids. How old are your kids? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Six, four, and almost a year. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Okay; some people are thinking, \u201cI have no time for these deep discussions.\u201d You guys are kind of in a lifestyle right now where you\u2019re busy; you\u2019re taxed; your kids are demanding; you\u2019re not sleeping. How do you have these deep conversations in the midst of that kind of lifestyle? [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> He looks over at me. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know; I just talk to Selena while she sleeps. [Laughter] Yes; it\u2019s hard. I think\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> It\u2019s important. I think\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> It\u2019s very important. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u2014I think it\u2019s one of those non-negotiables; right? Like, unfortunately, sometimes, yes, you have to negotiate sleep; right? But connecting with your spouse and being honest and having a rhythm that you go to\u2014like either if it\u2019s once a week\/at least, I would say once a week\u2014you just have to see it as valuable. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you don\u2019t, then we can\u2019t be wondering: \u201cWhy we\u2019re not connecting?\u201d \u201cWhy does our marriage feel like we\u2019re distant?\u201d or \u201c\u2026crumbling?\u201d For that, it\u2019s something you have to fight for, for sure; because if we\u2019re not good\u2014the old saying: \u201cIf Mom and Dad aren\u2019t good, then how is the rest of the house going to be holding together?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Obviously, you just sort of gave us a window into your life; but you\u2019ve got little kids, so it\u2019s crazy. You\u2019ve got a vibrant ministry; so your work is all-consuming, and a lot of it is out of your house\u2014I\u2019m guessing; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Every bit of it\u2014well, yes; just about every bit of it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So how in the world does a couple, living your life, make the marriage and being transparent\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014priority? Obviously, the date is important. Are there other things you guys do? Is there a rhythm that can help other couples? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Actually, I love to speak to this a little bit; because so often, we approach our work\u2014and our work lives\/our careers\u2014as almost like fixed objects in this conversation; right? We\u2019re technically self-employed\u2014we set our own hours; there is some uniqueness there\u2014but I will say, \u201cWork has taken a backseat, almost daily\/at least, three to four times a week.\u201d There are initiatives that just aren\u2019t done; because I\u2019ve just said: \u201cI\u2019m not willing to pay this price,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m not willing to be away from you,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m not willing to be away from our kids,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m not willing to spend the time it takes to get these things done.\u201d A lot of times, in American culture, in particular, we have to fit it around our career. I just want to kill that sacred cow and say, \u201cLook, maybe, career is not the end all\/be all of our existence\u201d; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAside from that, just kind of speaking to that point, mornings have become kind of a rhythm in terms of we try to have morning coffee, where we kind of sit. We do breakfast with our girls, but then they go and get kind of their hair brushed, their teeth brushed, and get dressed\u2014everyone but the infant, I should say\u2014then we sit. Kind of the rule is like, \u201cYou can be here, but you can\u2019t talk; because we\u2019re talking. This is important to us. Your mom and dad\u2014we need to connect\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cso that we can love you well.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Right; which we spoke to another couple, the Jacobsons\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u2014awhile back. They said that their kids\u2014they have nine kids\u2014they said that the one thing that they loved, and just respected, and were so grateful for the boundary of that\u2014like coffee time that their parents had\u2014and said, \u201cLike you can be here, but we\u2019re having this time.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSetting that boundary, I think, for your kids is loving; right? Setting that boundary for your marriage is loving. It\u2019s\/I think it\u2019s a call to holiness on some levels and discipline. I feel like it\u2019s so much of a priority for us that we can\u2019t do without it anymore. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> It just gets funky\u2014Ann, like you were saying\u2014something just is up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> We can\u2019t see straight; we need to connect. We start treating each other poorly; it\u2019s like\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> It\u2019s so obvious. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> \u2014we have to make time for it; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So you take a little time every day to kind of touch base, at least. That\u2019s kind of what you\u2019re saying. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> I mean, we\u2019re not perfect; we try to. If it\u2019s not in the morning, then it\u2019s in the evening. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Selena:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> We\u2019ll sit. Selena is usually reading a book in the evening, and we\u2019ll talk through it. Some conversations go great; some are terrible, depending on how tired I am. One night, she was trying to read me something; and I was just like, \u201cNo offense, but I just don\u2019t care about that right now.\u201d [Laughter] You got really upset, and I had to apologize because you weren\u2019t ready to hear that. Anyway, we learn; we learn. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You know, I\u2019m thinking about listeners, who are hearing us talk about the value of transparency in marriage\u2014and they are thinking back on past relationships; they are thinking back on stuff from their teenage years\u2014and they are going, \u201cI don\u2019t think it\u2019s going to help my relationship if I sit down with my husband tonight and say, \u2018I\u2019ve never really shared with you about this, but let me tell you about this guy I dated when I was a junior in high school.\u2019\u201d It\u2019s like: \u201cDo I really need to kind of just be transparent about everything in order for us to have the kind of marriage we\u2019re supposed to have?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> That\u2019s a really good question; because the tendency is to, as you hear what we\u2019re talking about, to kind of go through the litany of sins that you\u2019ve created\u2014things that you regret or things that you did before you were saved. I don\u2019t know if there is a hard and fast rule for this; but generally, where we lead couples, when they ask us that question is, \u201cWhatever that thing is that is [causing] you to kind of go into your hole,\u201d\u2014right?\u2014\u201cwhich is to hide from one another, or whatever that thing is that is creating dysfunction.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you had a past relationship that was really abusive\u2014and it\u2019s made you fearful in every relationship since, and you\u2019re afraid of your husband or your wife because of that past experience, and you\u2019ve never really been healed from that because you never\u2014then that\u2019s a good opportunity to really be known and experience love in that pain area of your life and experience healing\u2014again, going back to 1 John 1\u2014\u201cso that we can have fellowship and be cleansed from unrighteousness\u201d\u2014not that feeling pain is unrighteousness necessarily\u2014but it\u2019s that fellowship that will help us walk through. Really, we use the word, gospel, as a verb sometimes in our marriage: we gospel each other in that, when we\u2019re feeling that kind of lack of belief, we remind each other who Christ is and everything that He\u2019s done. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTo answer your question, Bob, I don\u2019t know that you just have to create a laundry list and go through the whole thing; but I do think there are areas that you will know the Holy Spirit will prompt you to share for the sake of greater intimacy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> I think there is some repetition sometimes that happens. Sometimes, things will come to mind, and it filters through; but if\u2014like you said with your experience: things kind of coming back to it, and you see it coming back again and again\u2014you\u2019re just like, \u201cMan, this really\u2026\u201d It\u2019s, again, creating those patterns of sort of feeling like you need to hide or these feelings of being afraid, then I would say it\u2019s probably a safe bet that you need to address it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Is there a point that we can over-share?\u2014go into too many details? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes; we call that rehashing the crime scene; right? I\u2019m just going to go back to this example; but men or women, who deal with pornography addiction. There is a certain level that it just stops being appropriate and constructive to share\u2014like, \u201cHey, this is the nature of the addiction\u2026\u201d\u2014some of that stuff is just not edifying in any way nor does it help you get to a place of greater reconciliation. It just kind of begins to hurt even more. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, nothing replaces discernment in these conversations. And if a couple is dealing with something that is so, kind of, damaging and does continue to create pain, then I would highly recommend getting a counselor or a pastor involved so that you are not walking through it alone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know, I\u2019ve also found\u2014and I know you guys write about it in the book\u2014the value of friendships to help us be vulnerable, not only with our friends\u2014of course, hopefully, I have men in my life; Ann has women in her life\u2014but there have been times, where I\u2019ve been so honest with my guys that they\u2019ve looked at me and said, \u201cYou need to tell Ann.\u201d That community\u2014it\u2019s almost like they became counselors: \u201cIron sharpens iron.\u201d Talk about that, because that\u2019s a couple chapters in your book\u2014the value\/the <em>need<\/em> to live in community and how that helps us in our transparency. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Absolutely; I think a lot of times, at least in our experience, I think we had not really lived in true community the first few years of our marriage. We did not have people who kind of knew us. We didn\u2019t have people, who were asking hard questions\u2014but also walking with us, and encouraging, and kind of sharpening us, like you said, to have these conversations\/to go into the fire and to not be afraid\u2014right?\u2014and to share what the Lord has put on our hearts, because our view of God was not\u2014at least, for me, it was easy to see Him more as like a punisher\u2014right?\u2014or someone who is: \u201cIf you say this, these are the consequences\u2026\u201d; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, yes; we do experience the consequence of sin, <em>but<\/em> God doesn\u2019t leave us there. He doesn\u2019t leave the sin like that in us; He sanctifies us. The best way that we\u2019ve learned that and how He does that has been through our community\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u2014through our relationships with other godly men and women and mentors. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> I\u2019m laughing; because I remember writing this part of the book. We had a bit of a burr in our saddle, I\u2019ll say, because we\u2019d experienced so many versions of \u201cChristian community.\u201d So much of it felt inauthentic. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u2014contrived; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> It felt contrived. It felt like\u2014we\u2019re not trying to throw anyone under the bus\u2014because I feel like that\u2019s a cultural thing\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> \u2014right? That\u2019s why we talk about meaningful risk and what it means to have false vulnerability versus meaningful risk. We actually have a\u2014it\u2019s a table in the book that I\u2019ve just found so elucidating in my own life; and it kind of contrasts false vulnerability with meaningful risk. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn a falsely vulnerable setting, you might go around the group, and you\u2019re all sharing: \u201cHow are you doing in life? What\u2019s God doing in your life?\u201d Someone might say, \u201cOh man! Work has been stressful.\u201d Then the group would respond, \u201cWell, let\u2019s pray that you\u2019re not stressed; let\u2019s pray that it all gets better.\u201d The contrast to that\u2014that\u2019s the false vulnerability\u2014because the meaningful risk side is, \u201cWork has been stressful. I\u2019m afraid I\u2019ll lose my job because\u201d\u2014\u201cWhat?\u201d\u2014\u201cI\u2019ve underperformed,\u201d or \u201cbecause I was late on this deadline,\u201d or \u201cbecause my sales numbers are way down,\u201d or \u201cthe kids aren\u2019t learning in the classroom; I\u2019m supposed to be teaching them!\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat that gives us is an actual window\u2014and take that example into any context that you want\u2014but that gives us a window to actually say, \u201cOkay; well, let\u2019s address that fear. Why are you afraid you are going to lose your job?\u201d \u201cOkay; why have you underperformed?\u201d\u00a0 See, that\u2019s meaningful risk versus just kind of sharing just enough to kind of get past the Q&amp;A so they go to the next couple in the group. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s the essence of Christian communities\u2014actually, having a forum to say\u2014\u201cListen, the playing field has been leveled. We\u2019re all sinners saved by grace. Now, here is how we can sharpen each other,\u201d like you said. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think somebody has to take the initiative to that at times. I know that with a group of friends, we were having lunch. I <em>love<\/em> these women; and you know we were talking about all the typical things of kids, and school, and clothes, and all different things. I can be pretty passionate, because I <em>love<\/em> to go deep; we\u2019re all wired in such a different way. I rudely interrupt the conversation; and I say, \u201cCan we stop talking about nothingness?\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Oh, I love that; that\u2019s awesome! [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014which, of course, some people are totally offended. I said, \u201cIt\u2019s not that I don\u2019t want to talk about this sometimes, but I want us to go <em>deeper<\/em>. I want to know what you are afraid of right now, and what you are worrying about the most right now, and how your marriages are.\u201d I can be like a bull sometimes, where I\u2019ll just charge in; and I\u2019ve tried to learn how to do that more tactfully. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYet, I think, sometimes in marriage, one of us\u2014and in our friendships\u2014one of us needs to take that <em>step<\/em> of saying, \u201cI want us to go a little deeper. How do you feel about that? Are you afraid?\u201d \u201cAre you into this with me?\u201d \u201cWould you go there with me?\u201d Maybe, it\u2019s just one friend; but I think it\u2019s really important to do that in our marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat are some of the steps we can take in a relationship when one spouse hasn\u2019t gone there and won\u2019t go there? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Well, as far as the steps go, I think finding, again, our identity in Christ, realizing that He is more glorified the more transparent that we are. If our whole existence is for God\u2019s glory\u2014which we believe it is\u2014then I think that can become the foundation for us to begin initiating those conversations, where those conversations may not feel welcome. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe mentioned 1 John 1. I want to go to John, Chapter 1; this is verse 5\u2014it says: \u201cThe light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.\u201d Alright, so this is again introducing Jesus into the equation. It says, \u201cThere was a man sent from God whose name was John,\u201d\u2014this is John the Baptist\u2014\u201cHe came as a witness to bear witness about the light that all might believe through Him.\u201d John goes through the pain of explaining this; he says he was not the light but came to bear witness about the light. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn the cover of our book, it\u2019s got these\u2014this stained glass window. One of the analogies we use throughout the entire book is that we are all these imperfect shards of glass; right? We have rough edges; we have different shades of color; we have different varying levels of intensity in terms of pigment. We\u2019re all different; right? There is this stained glass window\u2014is only beautiful to the extent that light shines <em>through<\/em> it\u2014so that gives us a whole context in that I can now glorify God even more. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd like you were saying\u2014those kind of chit-chatty conversations\u2014you\u2019re saying, \u201cLet\u2019s go deeper, friends, not so we can just get the juicier details. Let\u2019s go deeper so that we can greater glorify our Creator, the One who is the light.\u201d In going deeper, I think, the motivation is to have a greater glory for God in that instance. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I would add, as a dad, I know it\u2019s been difficult to do that with my adult sons. It takes courage to say, \u201cI want to know your heart.\u201d I think one of the first steps I\u2019ve learned to do is to share my heart. Transparency sort of begets transparency. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Even in a small group, if no one is transparent, everybody just fakes it; and they go home; you know? Most\/many people hide more at church than anywhere else; but if somebody is vulnerable and transparent, it\u2019s like, \u201cOh, I can be that <em>honest<\/em>?\u2014and be fully known and fully loved.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI feel, as a parent, I would encourage dads and moms to really go there. This could be a time to say, \u201cOkay; I really want to know my teenage daughter or son, and I\u2019ve never had the courage to speak transparently with them. I want\u2014I don\u2019t want just a see-through marriage; I want a see-through family, so I\u2019m going to lead there.\u201d I would encourage men: \u201cDo it! Lead!\u201d See what God does. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> What you said, \u201cTransparency begets transparency\u201d\u2014absolutely that\u2019s true. It diffuses that tension there. Now, people feel comfortable because\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> \u2014you\u2019ve been vulnerable; and \u201cNow, I can.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> I definitely think prayer is an obvious one; right?\u2014like praying for your spouse: \u201cGod, soften their heart.\u201d What Dave said about just courage\u2014I would add consistency; because it\u2019s really easy to just get shot down; right? It can be real easy to fall within yourself: \u201cOh, I tried; and it just felt horrible, so I don\u2019t ever want to do that again.\u201d No; keep trying. Remember your identity is rooted in Christ. He is enough; keep trying; keep going, because the consistency, I think, is\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> That\u2019s really good. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u2014where the softening happens even though we may not see it in our spouse; right? God is still, I think, faithful. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I think a lot of us look at the current state of our marriage and go: \u201cYou know, it\u2019s okay. I don\u2019t want to do anything that would make it more challenging. I\u2019m happy with this level of transparency and this level of intimacy. We\u2019ll just live here; and I know there are things, if I shared, maybe, would open; but maybe not\u201d; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cMaybe, we can go deeper and make it <em>better<\/em>.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; \u201cOr maybe, we\u2019ll just stay here and just keep it the way it is.\u201d [Laughter] I think what we want our listeners to hear us saying is: \u201cIt is worth it\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cto risk it, and to go deeper, and to be open and to say, \u2018This is hard, and this is vulnerable. I\u2019m not comfortable even sharing some of this reality of who I am with you; but I\u2019m going to believe that we\u2019ll have a better marriage\/a stronger, deeper, more committed, a more loving marriage.\u2019\u201d One of the things the Bible says is: \u201cLove rejoices in the truth.\u201d As long as there is not truth between you\/as long as there is not this kind of transparency and vulnerability, there\u2019s part of the love that is <em>missing<\/em> from your marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGuys, this has been really helpful. Thanks for taking time to be with us. Thanks for being on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Thank you, guys. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Thank you so much for having us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> I hope our listeners will go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to get a copy of your book, <em>See-Through Marriage: Experiencing the Freedom and Joy of Being Fully Known and Fully Loved<\/em>, by Ryan and Selena Frederick. Again, our website, FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014you can order the book from us online\u2014or call to order: 1-800-FL-TODAY is our number\u20141-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBy the way, we\u2019re going to continue our conversation with Ryan and Selena. We want to talk about transparency when it comes to sexual intimacy in marriage, so that\u2019ll happen online. You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com, and that conversation is available as a podcast. You can download it and listen as we talk about what it looks like to cultivate transparency when it comes to sexual intimacy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFinally, a quick word of thanks today to those of you who have made today\u2019s program possible. We have a small committed group of regular listeners, who have taken the next step and said, \u201cI want to make sure <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> continues to be available in my community, not only for me and for my relationship with my spouse or my family, but I want to make sure it\u2019s here to help others grow in godliness in marriage and in family.\u201d Every time you make a donation, that\u2019s what you are doing. You are investing in the lives of other men and women\u2014husbands and wives\/moms and dads\u2014helping them grow more Christ-like in their marriage relationship and in their parenting. Thanks to those of you who have made today\u2019s program possible. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you are a longtime listener, and you\u2019ve never donated, today would be a great day for you to go to FamilyLifeToday.com; make an online donation; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. We\u2019d like to say, \u201cThank you for your support today,\u201d by sending you a copy of Phil Waldrep\u2019s book, <em>Beyond Betrayal<\/em>. We talked with Phil earlier this week about how we deal with betrayal in a relationship, whether it is a marriage relationship or someone outside of our family. That book is our gift to you today when you make an online donation or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate to the ongoing ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. We hope to hear from you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able, in some form or fashion, to worship together in your local church this weekend. I hope you can join us on Monday when we\u2019re going to talk about how important a dad is in a family. Bryan Loritts has some things to say about that. He\u2019s just written a book called <em>The Dad Difference<\/em>. We\u2019ll talk to Bryan on Monday. I hope you can join us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back Monday for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. 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