{"id":306414,"date":"2020-09-17T07:00:05","date_gmt":"2020-09-17T11:00:05","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/fully-known-and-fully-loved\/"},"modified":"2020-09-17T07:00:05","modified_gmt":"2020-09-17T11:00:05","slug":"fully-known-and-fully-loved","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/fully-known-and-fully-loved\/","title":{"rendered":"Fully Known and Fully Loved"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Ryan and Selena Frederick talk about the freedom in a marriage where both spouses are fully known and fully loved. Ryan and Selena also explain the difference between &#8220;keeping&#8221; peace and &#8220;making&#8221; peace.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-09-17.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:29:19","filesize":"26.85M","filesize_raw":"28154170","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2082,2810,2088,2862],"tags":[2877],"podcast_series":[8392],"cwp_profile":[9559],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-306414","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-communication","category-growing-spiritually","category-romance-and-sex","category-understanding-differences","tag-marriage","podcast_series-see-through-marriage","cwp_profile-ryan-and-selena-frederick","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/306414\/fully-known-and-fully-loved","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/306414\/fully-known-and-fully-loved","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"Hf0VSXa19D\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/fully-known-and-fully-loved\/\">Fully Known and Fully Loved<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/fully-known-and-fully-loved\/embed\/#?secret=Hf0VSXa19D\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Fully Known and Fully Loved&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"Hf0VSXa19D\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-09-17.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-09-17.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The Bible says, when we get married, the two are to become one; but if we are honest, there are parts of who we are\u2014things about our past or things we may be thinking\u2014that we just don\u2019t share with each other. Ryan Frederick says, when we open up wisely and carefully, God can draw us closer together as a couple. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Out of the blue\u2014I mean <em>out of the blue<\/em>\u2014I\u2019m in my mid-30s\u2014something from like when I was like 10\/11\/12 years old that had happened, popped into my memory that I had never told Selena about; but it was very shameful for me. Finally, we were doing communion at church one morning, and I just felt the Holy Spirit say, \u201cToday\u2019s the day. You have to just bring her into this.\u201d What was the result from that? I felt so loved because she looked at me; and she just said, \u201cThank you for sharing. I still love you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, September 17<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I\u2019m Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. Are you and your spouse transparent with one another? Do you really <em>know<\/em> each other at the deepest level? How can you move <em>closer<\/em> in that direction? We\u2019re going to explore that today. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. One of the things listeners recognize about you guys, if they\u2019ve listened for any length of time, is that\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh boy! Where are we going? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You are remarkably\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Uh-oh. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014transparent. Don\u2019t you think? I mean, when you compare yourself to average people, who are a little more guarded, you are kind of like, \u201cWhat you see is what you get. We don\u2019t hide behind much.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s a little scary at times, especially when we\u2019re on stage, and I don\u2019t know what my wife is going to bring up or say; and she has brought it all up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think it has even been intentional, necessarily. It\u2019s just who we are\u2014kind of messy and messed up. I feel like I probably bring that a little bit more than Dave. Now, Dave has just\u2014you have gone there, <em>totally<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I was going to add\u2014this program isn\u2019t about us\u2014but it is intentional. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the values at our church as I lead our teaching team\u2014it\u2019s always like\/I always say, \u201cEvery sermon should always have at least two things: one, our brokenness\/how we\u2019ve failed; in fact, I\u2019ve even said, \u201cIf there\u2019s not a story of weakness, go back and rewrite that sermon.\u201d I\u2019m not adamant about that, but there should be\/I want the audience to go, \u201cWow. They struggle like I do\u201d; but <em>at the same time<\/em>, there should be victory in Christ so they go, \u201cYes; but they know Jesus in a way I\u2019m not sure I\u2019ve ever experienced that.\u201d They [see] both transparent\u2014and they get a real view into your struggle, and your marriage, or wherever\u2014but they also see the power of God at work. They\u2019re both true simultaneously.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019re talking about transparency today because we\u2019ve got some guests, who are joining us, who believe that transparency and vulnerability are an <em>essential<\/em> part of a healthy marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; you got to love the title of their book: <em>See-Through Marriage<\/em> by Ryan and Selena Frederick. It\u2019s interesting to think\u2014<em>See-Through Marriage<\/em>\u2014when you see the title, you\u2019re like, \u201cExactly what does that <em>mean<\/em>?\u201d [Laughter] It could be a little scary; but then you read the subtitle, <em>Experiencing the Freedom and Joy of Being Fully Known and Fully Loved<\/em>. I think that describes what every human soul longs for; we do want to be fully loved and fully known. Yet, in a marriage, it\u2019s hard to do; so it\u2019s exciting to think of. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey are the authors of <em>Fierce Marriage<\/em> and a website with a <em>few people<\/em>\u2014[Laughter]\u2014like hundreds of thousands of people that they impact. This book is just another of a series that you guys have written. You are a couple that is see-through. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> What\u2019s that mean? What does see-through marriage mean? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> For us, transparency has just kind of been a way of living. I\u2019d say we\u2019ve been in fierce marriage for about seven years now\/eight years. One of the things that really drove us into that was realizing that\u2014\u201cWow;\u00a0 there is kind of another level of intimacy that we\u2019ve experienced,\u201d\u2014because we had a pastor that had taught us what it meant to be transparent. That\u2019s kind of bled into how we\u2019ve communicated through marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tReally, it\u2019s revolutionized our own marriage. We value it; it\u2019s a big part of how we communicate. This book was just a response to all the response we get from our readers and listeners, saying, \u201cWhat does it mean?\u201d \u201cHow do we do it?\u201d and \u201cHow can we start that journey?\u201d So here we go. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Yes; we definitely did not arrive there. It took a long time, I think, to cultivate\u2014even for us: \u201cWhat does that mean?\u201d \u201cWhat does that look like day to day?\u201d \u201cEven big picture, year to year, what does that look like?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u201cHow do we\u201d\u2014it\u2019s more than just, you know, checking in and accountability; right? There is so much more to\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u2014being transparent with each other than that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> So you guys would be different than\u2014I mean, Ann described Dave and her as being kind of naturally out-there people. Would you say that you had to cultivate transparency? It did not come as naturally to you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> I think, I mean, I think for every sinner\u2014right?\u2014you have to cultivate it to an extent. You have to realize that this walking in the light\u2014so we talk a lot in the book about 1 John, Chapter 1\u2014it\u2019s that verse we all kind of know; it says: \u201cIf we walk in the light as He is in the light, we will have fellowship with one another. We will be cleansed from unrighteousness.\u201d I think that walking in the light\u2014it becomes more intuitive; right?\u2014as we learn to rely on the Holy Spirit. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think, in general, we live transparently, just personality-wise; right? I\u2019m a <em>terrible<\/em> actor. I was in a play once as a kid. I could not pretend to be somebody I wasn\u2019t; it was horrible! Anytime I\u2019ve been able to speak in front of a\u2014it\u2019s always got to be out of your heart, so I think that\u2019s kind of natural in that regard; but in terms of being known in our sin, and like being vulnerable and taking our shame to one another, it did take some very conscious cultivating trust\/cultivating our understanding of what it means to be loved in light of the gospel\u2014what you guys were saying. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDave, you were talking about being fully known and <em>still<\/em> fully loved. That\u2019s the beauty of the gospel; right? We want that so badly in life and in marriage. I think marriage is designed with that end in mind; but we just\u2014it takes a leap of faith to get there\/to realize that, \u201cWow! You actually <em>do<\/em> still love me even after I\u2019ve brought this to you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Right. I think we can even tend to think that we are being transparent; but I think, really, our tendency\u2014if we look at Genesis 3, our tendency is to hide; right? Our tendency is to get really good at hiding\/to get really good at putting up these\u2014posturing\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u2014and sharing, maybe, just enough; because I think there is this middle part of like, \u201cJust enough and too much\u201d; right? How do we know when to share what, and how do we know that it\u2019s being productive and not more destructive? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think that\u2019s something, when you get married, you are\u2014hopefully, this book will lead you to want to explore those areas more and not just think that\u2014you know, you\u2019ve got to figure it out; because I know we felt like we had stuff figured out; we felt like we were honest. But as you guys know, as you\u2019re married for longer and longer, you realize you\u2019re just getting better at hiding things, maybe, and not being so upfront because: \u201cOh, they might not care.\u201d You rationalize it a little bit more. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Now, when you go back to the\u2014you mentioned Adam and Eve\u2014if you go back to the first marriage, Adam and Eve\u2014<em>before<\/em> Genesis 3, like Genesis 1 and 2\u2014there is this phrase in there; and I am wondering if this is the what see-through marriage is\u2014is \u201cThey were naked and unashamed.\u201d What would your understanding be of: \u201cWhat does it mean to be naked and unashamed in your marriage?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes; when you mentioned\u2014I love that you brought up the Garden, pre-fall, because that was\u2014that was the ideal. It was how creation was designed to function, and then here sin enters the picture and breaks everything. We are living in light of that brokenness. Thank God we have Jesus; that He has shown us a better tree. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJust like Adam and Eve used to run\u2014they would run, and they would hide in the trees; right? Then God is walking through the Garden; He is saying, \u201cWhere are you? What have you done?\u201d It\u2019s not like God forgot where they were\/couldn\u2019t find them; right?\u00a0 He was calling them into a reflective state of how the relationship had broken; but in a similar way, we want to naturally kind of hide in the trees in the Garden. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have a new tree now to hide behind; and that is the person and work of Christ on the cross and the sacrifice that He gave us. He gave Himself for us. To be naked and unashamed, I think, in a true sense\u2014okay; it\u2019s really easy as marriage writers just to say, \u201cHey, just be honest, and build trust, and do all these things,\u201d\u2014but like, \u201cOkay; what\u2019s going to fuel that?\u201d If that doesn\u2019t come from somewhere deeper, and my identity doesn\u2019t go deeper than just what I\u2019ve done and even who I am, my identity has to be in Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn 1 John, when he writes, \u201cWalk in the light,\u201d it\u2019s an active walking in the light, not just so I can be naked in front of you. It\u2019s not this\u2014like, \u201cI\u2019m prideful; I\u2019m naked,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m ashamed. Here I am; take it or leave it,\u201d\u2014it\u2019s not that. It\u2019s: \u201cI\u2019m being transparent so that\/<em>so that<\/em> we can go somewhere together; so that we can be made cleansed from unrighteousness so that we can have fellowship.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think true\/I think biblical transparency isn\u2019t just transparency for its own sake. It\u2019s transparency with an end mind: and that is righteousness; that is fellowship; that is experiencing greater depth of relationship so that we can get a glimpse of what it\u2019s like to be known and loved by God in marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> In terms of practicality, what should we be transparent about? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good question. Our personal sort of test is: \u201cWhatever that thing is that you want to hide, whatever that thing is that incites shame in you, whatever that thing is that incites fear instead of faith in you\u2014that\u2019s the thing. That\u2019s the thing you need to figure out a way forward.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ll just use a really quick personal example. I had been watching sermons online; God had been working on my heart over a couple of weeks. Out of the blue\u2014I mean <em>out of the blue<\/em>\u2014I\u2019m in my mid-30\u2019s\u2014something from when I was 10\/11\/12 years old that had happened popped into my memory that I had never told Selena about, but it was very shameful for me. It was two instances where this popped to memory. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was like, \u201cOh man! I just hope these go back to the dark hole from which they came\u201d; right? I don\u2019t want to deal with this; I don\u2019t want to tell her, but I\u2019m ashamed of this. God would not let it happen; I kept remembering. About two weeks went by, and my heart was being softened; but I kept wanting it to harden again to this. Finally, we were doing communion at church one morning; and I just felt the Holy Spirit say, \u201cLook, today is the day. You have to just bring her into this.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDuring communion, I remember we were kind of praying. I said, \u201cWe need to talk today, and it\u2019s\u2014I\u2019m really ashamed, and I just want to talk. I need to bring you in.\u201d Anyway, we ended up having a conversation. God was so gracious. Selena ended up opening up on somethings that she had been kind of like unknowingly not transparent with. What was the result from that? We felt\/I felt so loved; because she looked at me and she just said, \u201cThank you for sharing. I still love you just as much as I did ten seconds ago or thirty seconds ago.\u201d That just brought us even closer. In that sense, I got to really experience God\u2019s grace. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTo answer your question, it\u2019s not that there is this checklist of things to be transparent about. I think it really is anything that you are hiding from your spouse I think is a good candidate for being exposed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019m thinking about two different categories. There are some things that we would be hesitant to be transparent about because: \u201cI want Mary Ann to admire me; and if I reveal this about me, that\u2019s going to make me less admirable,\u201d\u2014so that\u2019s one thing. It\u2019s character flaws in me\/deficiencies\u2014like what you described, Ryan\u2014\u201cIf she knew this is a part of my background, she\u2019s going to think less of me.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen the other things are ways in which we sin against one another\/things that we\u2019ve done, where we may keep it hidden. I\u2019m imagining a husband, who is involved in pornography. He doesn\u2019t want to be transparent about that with his wife, because he\u2019s sinning against her; and if she learns that, then he\u2019s busted. That\u2019s when the mushroom cloud is really going to go off in their marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Let\u2019s talk, first, about those situations, where we\u2019re thinking: \u201cIf you really knew the things I think about from time to time\u2026\u201d \u201cIf you really knew things about my past that are shameful\u2026\u201d \u201cIf you really knew what I said to a coworker today\u2026\u201d\u2014things that would make me look bad to <em>you<\/em>\u2014\u201cI\u2019m just afraid you would think, \u2018Why did I marry you?\u2019 or \u2018I wish I hadn\u2019t married you,\u2019 or \u2018I don\u2019t want to still be married to you if that\u2019s the kind of person you really are.\u2019\u201d We feel like, because we feel such shame in ourselves <em>being<\/em> that way, we don\u2019t want to tell somebody else the shameful parts of who we are. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes; I mean, there is a posture\u2014right?\u2014in marriage that I think is really\/it\u2019s really unique. It\u2019s an opportunity. We don\u2019t talk about it enough, I don\u2019t think, in the Western church of this idea of contrition; right?\u2014especially true repentance to one another and basically bringing something, not just with that heart of\u2014again, 1 John 1\u2014\u201cI\u2019m walking in the light so that\u2026\u201d\u2014there is a reason for this. \u201cI\u2019m going to share this thing with you, that I don\u2019t want to share with you; but here is why: because I know I need to be cleansed from it; I know that I want to have fellowship with you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s that deep underlying purpose for doing it, I think, that just gives all the power; because then it\u2019s rooted in the gospel and not just in alleviating shame; because a lot of times, we\u2019ll share something because I feel guilty; I just want to get it off my conscience. How often has that really led to heart change? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut when you are doing something with the sole aim of being made more righteous and to have fellowship with another, that\u2019s powerful stuff. It\u2019s really powerful stuff. It really does matter what your heart posture is, headed into it. Of course, there are all kinds of ways that could look; but I think, by far, the most important is the underlying identity, heart posture, and then being smart about how you present it and still being honest in that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think this can be really difficult. Yet, when we first got married, I told Dave, \u201cI want to know <em>everything<\/em> about you. I want to know what makes you tick. I want to know <em>everything<\/em>.\u201d Well, then, as we\u2019re married a while, he starts telling me everything; and honestly, it was like, \u201cWait; I <em>hate<\/em> this part\u201d; you know? When Dave came and shared with me his struggle with pornography, I thought to myself, \u201cDo I want to know this?\u201d because it\u2019s really hard: I\u2019m offended; and I\u2019m hurt; and I feel incredible shame myself. It brings up all my own junk. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think that\u2019s a really good question; because we think, \u201cOh, this is going to be <em>awesome<\/em>; I\u2019m going to know everything.\u201d It can be really <em>difficult<\/em> to go there. It took us probably <em>years<\/em> to kind of\u2014not only get into pornography\u2014but going into deeper issues of growing up: shame, and abuse, and alcohol. We didn\u2019t know how much it was affecting us until we talked to one another about it. As a result, it almost became like we were each other\u2019s counselors. There is something about, when the other person sees all of you, and you can still be loved in the midst of that, there is a oneness and intimacy that really can\u2019t be described; it\u2019s beautiful. It is the gospel, as we just said; but it can be really messy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes; one of the markers of that level of transparency is, again, the gospel focus; but without that, you run the risk of being enablers, and we go toward the direction of codependence; right? If there is not desire that is kind of birthed in us through the power of the Holy Spirit to be made more righteous, then it just becomes about behavior modification; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, you see, some wives, particularly\u2014it goes both sides\u2014but wives will write and they\u2019ll say: \u201cI know my husband is dealing with this thing. I don\u2019t want to bring it up, because I\u2019m just trying to maintain the level of peace that we have in our household.\u201d There is like a codependence that develops there; it\u2019s very unhealthy. In that case, transparency is not actually moving you forward. All you are doing is just learning how to coexist with the sin; and that is\u2014we are called out of that as believers. We are called to address it, lovingly and persistently, and fight the fight, run the race\u2014these are arduous words\/word pictures given to us in God\u2019s Word. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe always contrast peacemaking versus peacekeeping; right? Jesus, in Matthew, Chapter 5\u2014Sermon on the Mount\u2014says, \u201cBlessed are the peacemakers\u201d; right? He doesn\u2019t say, \u201cpeacekeepers.\u201d Peacemakers is actually\u2014the Jewish word is <em>shalom<\/em> under there; right?\u2014that all-encompassing peace that comes from God. That is circumspect peace\u2014it\u2019s not just quiet; it\u2019s not just stillness\u2014it is peace that goes down to the root of who you are. We are not called to be peacekeepers but peacemakers. That means sometimes creating unrest so that we can have a greater, deeper peace. That is the hard work of making peace that God is calling us into. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Can you kind of run us through the three lies that you talk about that keep us from pursuing transparency? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes; I love this one because Selena brought the lie-language into this, which I think is really good; because one of the best ways to work through truth in our lives is to understand the lies that tend to keep us from those truths. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>The first one is\u2014well, I just kind of just talked about it: \u201cWe can\u2019t be transparent because I\u2019m trying to keep what little peace I have.\u201d I won\u2019t rehash it; but just like we said, it\u2019s the tendency\/it\u2019s really just: \u201cI\u2019m exhausted. I can\u2019t gear up for another fight on this. I\u2019ve tried; we\u2019ve already been there.\u201d I\u2019m saying, \u201cI think God is calling us into a place of endurance here, and resting in Him, and fighting the good fight to create and make peace the way we are called.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> The second one is: \u201cI need the time alone, so I can work on myself.\u201d Writing this one was a little too personal, I think. [Laughter] It was a little too close to home; because I think that\u2019s my tendency\u2014is to just: \u201cLet me just go figure this out. Let me just\u2014let God and I just work it out. Then I\u2019ll come back to you, whole, and ready to go\/ready to be married again.\u201d I think we, then, rob our spouse of so much; and we rob our marriage and our relationship of so much growth and potential for unity and\u2014again, like you said\u2014experiencing intimacy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen the third one is: \u201cMy marriage isn\u2019t that bad. It\u2019s definitely not as bad as <em>theirs<\/em>.\u201d [Laughter] Comparison game is strong in marriage. It\u2019s not\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Oh man! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u2014it just crushes everyone; right? You know, 2 Corinthians 10:12, Paul\u2014he states that those who compare are without understanding; right? We are kind of boasting in our own knowledge\/our own abilities rather than boasting in the work of the Lord, which typically comes about through brokenness and comes about through our weaknesses. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> We call it idol polishing\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> \u2014in our own marriage in that we\u2019re like: \u201cWe\u2019re exchanging\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cone idol for another.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes; like, \u201cOh man! I feel so bad about our life because\u201d\u2014whatever that thing is\u2014\u201cwell, our life is not as together as theirs,\u201d or \u201cour Instagram feed isn\u2019t nearly as interesting or exotic,\u201d\u2014or whatever\u2014\u201cwe don\u2019t go to all of these places.\u201d Then we\u2019ll comfort each other, \u201cWell, listen; they are terrible in these ways.\u201d We just like polish our idols. [Laughter] It\u2019s like, \u201cThey fight all the time, so we\u2019re better.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u201cWe\u2019re good; we only fight like once a week.\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> I mean, how silly is that? We\u2019re not called to compare, like Selena was saying; we\u2019re being <em>fools<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u2014not productive. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> We need to boast in the Lord and what He has done in our lives. That is the only spot for us to actually have confidence. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> We don\u2019t actually get to boast. We get to boast about our weakness\u2014right?\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes; yes! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u2014like Paul does; and we are really boasting about God\u2019s glory. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Well, I think as I look at those three lies\u2014and I\u2019m sure there are more\u2014but I\u2019m guessing a lot of couples have experienced all three. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI know, as I read them in the book, I was like: \u201cWhoa! I did number one,\u201d \u201cOh, I did number two,\u201d \u201cOh, I did number three; I did all three.\u201d It was like, \u201cI don\u2019t want to tell her what I\u2019m struggling with,\u201d\u2014and again, we\u2019ve been married 40 years; so this is in year 5\u2014so we\u2019re early in our marriage. I\u2019m struggling with porn. This was before digital porn; but still, I\u2019ve got this private, little struggle; and I\u2019m hiding like Adam and Eve in the Garden. Our marriage is good. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> But I could tell something was going on. He would say, \u201cOur marriage is good.\u201d I would say, \u201cOur marriage is <em>weird<\/em> right now; something is happening.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019d say, \u201cYes; but you see Joe and Sally\u2019s marriage?\u2014it\u2019s a lot better than that one!\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So number three is up there; yes. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So there I am. Then number two is: \u201cI need time alone.\u201d That was what I was playing in my head\u2014is: \u201cI\u2019ll get a handle on this. If I get a handle on it, which I will, of course, then it won\u2019t be a problem. I probably won\u2019t even need to bring it up because it will be under control.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And \u201cWhy hurt me [Ann]?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; I was not expecting\u2014what you guys shared earlier is\u2014when you shared something fully known, you were fully loved. I\u2019m thinking, \u201cIf I\u2019m fully known\u2014really fully known\/fully transparent\u2014I will not be fully loved.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, I wasn\u2019t very good at loving you at the beginning. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> No; it didn\u2019t go well. I\u2019m bringing this up because I know there are couples, who have experienced the same thing. Maybe, you did as well. It was like, \u201cOkay; I had the courage. I finally let the light in\u201d; because when you are in the dark, dark is going to suffocate; you\u2019re going to lose. Finally, I\u2019m like, \u201cOkay; I\u2019ve got to tell her,\u201d and I did. I\u2019m now living see-through marriage, and she blew up. It felt like, at the time: \u201cI should have never said it. This is hurting our marriage. She doesn\u2019t\/I don\u2019t know if she really loves me. She\u2019s like\/she didn\u2019t know this; now, she knows; but here is where we are.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, this is a process for us. It didn\u2019t get handled in a month or even six months; but now, as I look back\u2014and yes; she blew up for a while, and there was anger. Then there were tears. Then there was hurt. Now, I look back and think, \u201cIt was worth the pain to be fully known, because I feel more loved now than I\u201d\u2014because if I continued to hide that, I\u2019m not really loved; it\u2019s a false superficial love. She sees it all, and I\u2019m loved\u2014that\u2019s the gospel. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If you try it and you say, \u201cOkay; I\u2019m going to be transparent and vulnerable,\u201d and it doesn\u2019t go well\u2014because it may not\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Go back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014your spouse may be hurt. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Just know that you can keep pressing in, and persevering, and be humble, and be gentle, and be loving. Where you\u2019ll get on the other side, you\u2019ll have to go through a valley\/through some pain to get there; but where you\u2019ll get will be richer, and deeper, and a more authentic kind of love than what you are experiencing as long as you keep the veneer up, and it\u2019s just a superficial relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRyan and Selena dive deep into this in their book, <em>See-Through Marriage<\/em>, which is a book we\u2019ve got in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can go online at FamilyLifeToday.com to get a copy, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the title of the book is <em>See-Through Marriage: Experiencing the Freedom and Joy of Being Fully Known and Fully Loved<\/em> by Ryan and Selena Frederick. Order your copy, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the things that can interfere with intimacy and with transparency in a marriage is if we\u2019ve experienced betrayal in a relationship. We talked about this earlier this week when Phil Waldrep joined us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. His book, <em>Beyond Betrayal<\/em>, is a book that we\u2019re making available to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners, who can help support the ministry with a donation. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think most of you realize that the reason we were able to have this conversation today, and you were able to join in, is because a listener, like you, cared enough about this kind of ministry happening that they made a donation to support the ongoing work of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. If you\u2019d like to see this continue\u2014pay it forward\/invest in the lives of other couples\u2014you can do that by donating today. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com; make an online donation; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. When you do, again, ask for your copy of Phil Waldrep\u2019s book, <em>Beyond Betrayal<\/em>. We\u2019re happy to send it to you as a way to say, \u201cThank you for investing in the lives of so many people and supporting the work of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope you can join us, again, tomorrow when we\u2019re going to talk about the fear that is there in a relationship that keeps us from being transparent with one another and what we do about that. Ryan and Selena Frederick join us tomorrow. I hope you can join us as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:29:19"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["26.85M"],"filesize_raw":["28154170"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-306414.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-306414.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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and Selena Frederick talk about the freedom in a marriage where both spouses are fully known and fully loved. Ryan and Selena also explain the difference between \"keeping\" peace and \"making\" peace.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-09-17.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The Bible says, when we get married, the two are to become one; but if we are honest, there are parts of who we are\u2014things about our past or things we may be thinking\u2014that we just don\u2019t share with each other. Ryan Frederick says, when we open up wisely and carefully, God can draw us closer together as a couple. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Out of the blue\u2014I mean <em>out of the blue<\/em>\u2014I\u2019m in my mid-30s\u2014something from like when I was like 10\/11\/12 years old that had happened, popped into my memory that I had never told Selena about; but it was very shameful for me. Finally, we were doing communion at church one morning, and I just felt the Holy Spirit say, \u201cToday\u2019s the day. You have to just bring her into this.\u201d What was the result from that? I felt so loved because she looked at me; and she just said, \u201cThank you for sharing. I still love you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, September 17<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I\u2019m Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. Are you and your spouse transparent with one another? Do you really <em>know<\/em> each other at the deepest level? How can you move <em>closer<\/em> in that direction? We\u2019re going to explore that today. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. One of the things listeners recognize about you guys, if they\u2019ve listened for any length of time, is that\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh boy! Where are we going? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You are remarkably\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Uh-oh. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014transparent. Don\u2019t you think? I mean, when you compare yourself to average people, who are a little more guarded, you are kind of like, \u201cWhat you see is what you get. We don\u2019t hide behind much.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s a little scary at times, especially when we\u2019re on stage, and I don\u2019t know what my wife is going to bring up or say; and she has brought it all up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think it has even been intentional, necessarily. It\u2019s just who we are\u2014kind of messy and messed up. I feel like I probably bring that a little bit more than Dave. Now, Dave has just\u2014you have gone there, <em>totally<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I was going to add\u2014this program isn\u2019t about us\u2014but it is intentional. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the values at our church as I lead our teaching team\u2014it\u2019s always like\/I always say, \u201cEvery sermon should always have at least two things: one, our brokenness\/how we\u2019ve failed; in fact, I\u2019ve even said, \u201cIf there\u2019s not a story of weakness, go back and rewrite that sermon.\u201d I\u2019m not adamant about that, but there should be\/I want the audience to go, \u201cWow. They struggle like I do\u201d; but <em>at the same time<\/em>, there should be victory in Christ so they go, \u201cYes; but they know Jesus in a way I\u2019m not sure I\u2019ve ever experienced that.\u201d They [see] both transparent\u2014and they get a real view into your struggle, and your marriage, or wherever\u2014but they also see the power of God at work. They\u2019re both true simultaneously.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019re talking about transparency today because we\u2019ve got some guests, who are joining us, who believe that transparency and vulnerability are an <em>essential<\/em> part of a healthy marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; you got to love the title of their book: <em>See-Through Marriage<\/em> by Ryan and Selena Frederick. It\u2019s interesting to think\u2014<em>See-Through Marriage<\/em>\u2014when you see the title, you\u2019re like, \u201cExactly what does that <em>mean<\/em>?\u201d [Laughter] It could be a little scary; but then you read the subtitle, <em>Experiencing the Freedom and Joy of Being Fully Known and Fully Loved<\/em>. I think that describes what every human soul longs for; we do want to be fully loved and fully known. Yet, in a marriage, it\u2019s hard to do; so it\u2019s exciting to think of. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey are the authors of <em>Fierce Marriage<\/em> and a website with a <em>few people<\/em>\u2014[Laughter]\u2014like hundreds of thousands of people that they impact. This book is just another of a series that you guys have written. You are a couple that is see-through. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> What\u2019s that mean? What does see-through marriage mean? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> For us, transparency has just kind of been a way of living. I\u2019d say we\u2019ve been in fierce marriage for about seven years now\/eight years. One of the things that really drove us into that was realizing that\u2014\u201cWow;\u00a0 there is kind of another level of intimacy that we\u2019ve experienced,\u201d\u2014because we had a pastor that had taught us what it meant to be transparent. That\u2019s kind of bled into how we\u2019ve communicated through marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tReally, it\u2019s revolutionized our own marriage. We value it; it\u2019s a big part of how we communicate. This book was just a response to all the response we get from our readers and listeners, saying, \u201cWhat does it mean?\u201d \u201cHow do we do it?\u201d and \u201cHow can we start that journey?\u201d So here we go. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Yes; we definitely did not arrive there. It took a long time, I think, to cultivate\u2014even for us: \u201cWhat does that mean?\u201d \u201cWhat does that look like day to day?\u201d \u201cEven big picture, year to year, what does that look like?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u201cHow do we\u201d\u2014it\u2019s more than just, you know, checking in and accountability; right? There is so much more to\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u2014being transparent with each other than that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> So you guys would be different than\u2014I mean, Ann described Dave and her as being kind of naturally out-there people. Would you say that you had to cultivate transparency? It did not come as naturally to you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> I think, I mean, I think for every sinner\u2014right?\u2014you have to cultivate it to an extent. You have to realize that this walking in the light\u2014so we talk a lot in the book about 1 John, Chapter 1\u2014it\u2019s that verse we all kind of know; it says: \u201cIf we walk in the light as He is in the light, we will have fellowship with one another. We will be cleansed from unrighteousness.\u201d I think that walking in the light\u2014it becomes more intuitive; right?\u2014as we learn to rely on the Holy Spirit. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think, in general, we live transparently, just personality-wise; right? I\u2019m a <em>terrible<\/em> actor. I was in a play once as a kid. I could not pretend to be somebody I wasn\u2019t; it was horrible! Anytime I\u2019ve been able to speak in front of a\u2014it\u2019s always got to be out of your heart, so I think that\u2019s kind of natural in that regard; but in terms of being known in our sin, and like being vulnerable and taking our shame to one another, it did take some very conscious cultivating trust\/cultivating our understanding of what it means to be loved in light of the gospel\u2014what you guys were saying. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDave, you were talking about being fully known and <em>still<\/em> fully loved. That\u2019s the beauty of the gospel; right? We want that so badly in life and in marriage. I think marriage is designed with that end in mind; but we just\u2014it takes a leap of faith to get there\/to realize that, \u201cWow! You actually <em>do<\/em> still love me even after I\u2019ve brought this to you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Right. I think we can even tend to think that we are being transparent; but I think, really, our tendency\u2014if we look at Genesis 3, our tendency is to hide; right? Our tendency is to get really good at hiding\/to get really good at putting up these\u2014posturing\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u2014and sharing, maybe, just enough; because I think there is this middle part of like, \u201cJust enough and too much\u201d; right? How do we know when to share what, and how do we know that it\u2019s being productive and not more destructive? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think that\u2019s something, when you get married, you are\u2014hopefully, this book will lead you to want to explore those areas more and not just think that\u2014you know, you\u2019ve got to figure it out; because I know we felt like we had stuff figured out; we felt like we were honest. But as you guys know, as you\u2019re married for longer and longer, you realize you\u2019re just getting better at hiding things, maybe, and not being so upfront because: \u201cOh, they might not care.\u201d You rationalize it a little bit more. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Now, when you go back to the\u2014you mentioned Adam and Eve\u2014if you go back to the first marriage, Adam and Eve\u2014<em>before<\/em> Genesis 3, like Genesis 1 and 2\u2014there is this phrase in there; and I am wondering if this is the what see-through marriage is\u2014is \u201cThey were naked and unashamed.\u201d What would your understanding be of: \u201cWhat does it mean to be naked and unashamed in your marriage?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes; when you mentioned\u2014I love that you brought up the Garden, pre-fall, because that was\u2014that was the ideal. It was how creation was designed to function, and then here sin enters the picture and breaks everything. We are living in light of that brokenness. Thank God we have Jesus; that He has shown us a better tree. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJust like Adam and Eve used to run\u2014they would run, and they would hide in the trees; right? Then God is walking through the Garden; He is saying, \u201cWhere are you? What have you done?\u201d It\u2019s not like God forgot where they were\/couldn\u2019t find them; right?\u00a0 He was calling them into a reflective state of how the relationship had broken; but in a similar way, we want to naturally kind of hide in the trees in the Garden. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have a new tree now to hide behind; and that is the person and work of Christ on the cross and the sacrifice that He gave us. He gave Himself for us. To be naked and unashamed, I think, in a true sense\u2014okay; it\u2019s really easy as marriage writers just to say, \u201cHey, just be honest, and build trust, and do all these things,\u201d\u2014but like, \u201cOkay; what\u2019s going to fuel that?\u201d If that doesn\u2019t come from somewhere deeper, and my identity doesn\u2019t go deeper than just what I\u2019ve done and even who I am, my identity has to be in Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn 1 John, when he writes, \u201cWalk in the light,\u201d it\u2019s an active walking in the light, not just so I can be naked in front of you. It\u2019s not this\u2014like, \u201cI\u2019m prideful; I\u2019m naked,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m ashamed. Here I am; take it or leave it,\u201d\u2014it\u2019s not that. It\u2019s: \u201cI\u2019m being transparent so that\/<em>so that<\/em> we can go somewhere together; so that we can be made cleansed from unrighteousness so that we can have fellowship.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think true\/I think biblical transparency isn\u2019t just transparency for its own sake. It\u2019s transparency with an end mind: and that is righteousness; that is fellowship; that is experiencing greater depth of relationship so that we can get a glimpse of what it\u2019s like to be known and loved by God in marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> In terms of practicality, what should we be transparent about? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good question. Our personal sort of test is: \u201cWhatever that thing is that you want to hide, whatever that thing is that incites shame in you, whatever that thing is that incites fear instead of faith in you\u2014that\u2019s the thing. That\u2019s the thing you need to figure out a way forward.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ll just use a really quick personal example. I had been watching sermons online; God had been working on my heart over a couple of weeks. Out of the blue\u2014I mean <em>out of the blue<\/em>\u2014I\u2019m in my mid-30\u2019s\u2014something from when I was 10\/11\/12 years old that had happened popped into my memory that I had never told Selena about, but it was very shameful for me. It was two instances where this popped to memory. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was like, \u201cOh man! I just hope these go back to the dark hole from which they came\u201d; right? I don\u2019t want to deal with this; I don\u2019t want to tell her, but I\u2019m ashamed of this. God would not let it happen; I kept remembering. About two weeks went by, and my heart was being softened; but I kept wanting it to harden again to this. Finally, we were doing communion at church one morning; and I just felt the Holy Spirit say, \u201cLook, today is the day. You have to just bring her into this.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDuring communion, I remember we were kind of praying. I said, \u201cWe need to talk today, and it\u2019s\u2014I\u2019m really ashamed, and I just want to talk. I need to bring you in.\u201d Anyway, we ended up having a conversation. God was so gracious. Selena ended up opening up on somethings that she had been kind of like unknowingly not transparent with. What was the result from that? We felt\/I felt so loved; because she looked at me and she just said, \u201cThank you for sharing. I still love you just as much as I did ten seconds ago or thirty seconds ago.\u201d That just brought us even closer. In that sense, I got to really experience God\u2019s grace. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTo answer your question, it\u2019s not that there is this checklist of things to be transparent about. I think it really is anything that you are hiding from your spouse I think is a good candidate for being exposed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019m thinking about two different categories. There are some things that we would be hesitant to be transparent about because: \u201cI want Mary Ann to admire me; and if I reveal this about me, that\u2019s going to make me less admirable,\u201d\u2014so that\u2019s one thing. It\u2019s character flaws in me\/deficiencies\u2014like what you described, Ryan\u2014\u201cIf she knew this is a part of my background, she\u2019s going to think less of me.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen the other things are ways in which we sin against one another\/things that we\u2019ve done, where we may keep it hidden. I\u2019m imagining a husband, who is involved in pornography. He doesn\u2019t want to be transparent about that with his wife, because he\u2019s sinning against her; and if she learns that, then he\u2019s busted. That\u2019s when the mushroom cloud is really going to go off in their marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Let\u2019s talk, first, about those situations, where we\u2019re thinking: \u201cIf you really knew the things I think about from time to time\u2026\u201d \u201cIf you really knew things about my past that are shameful\u2026\u201d \u201cIf you really knew what I said to a coworker today\u2026\u201d\u2014things that would make me look bad to <em>you<\/em>\u2014\u201cI\u2019m just afraid you would think, \u2018Why did I marry you?\u2019 or \u2018I wish I hadn\u2019t married you,\u2019 or \u2018I don\u2019t want to still be married to you if that\u2019s the kind of person you really are.\u2019\u201d We feel like, because we feel such shame in ourselves <em>being<\/em> that way, we don\u2019t want to tell somebody else the shameful parts of who we are. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes; I mean, there is a posture\u2014right?\u2014in marriage that I think is really\/it\u2019s really unique. It\u2019s an opportunity. We don\u2019t talk about it enough, I don\u2019t think, in the Western church of this idea of contrition; right?\u2014especially true repentance to one another and basically bringing something, not just with that heart of\u2014again, 1 John 1\u2014\u201cI\u2019m walking in the light so that\u2026\u201d\u2014there is a reason for this. \u201cI\u2019m going to share this thing with you, that I don\u2019t want to share with you; but here is why: because I know I need to be cleansed from it; I know that I want to have fellowship with you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s that deep underlying purpose for doing it, I think, that just gives all the power; because then it\u2019s rooted in the gospel and not just in alleviating shame; because a lot of times, we\u2019ll share something because I feel guilty; I just want to get it off my conscience. How often has that really led to heart change? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut when you are doing something with the sole aim of being made more righteous and to have fellowship with another, that\u2019s powerful stuff. It\u2019s really powerful stuff. It really does matter what your heart posture is, headed into it. Of course, there are all kinds of ways that could look; but I think, by far, the most important is the underlying identity, heart posture, and then being smart about how you present it and still being honest in that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think this can be really difficult. Yet, when we first got married, I told Dave, \u201cI want to know <em>everything<\/em> about you. I want to know what makes you tick. I want to know <em>everything<\/em>.\u201d Well, then, as we\u2019re married a while, he starts telling me everything; and honestly, it was like, \u201cWait; I <em>hate<\/em> this part\u201d; you know? When Dave came and shared with me his struggle with pornography, I thought to myself, \u201cDo I want to know this?\u201d because it\u2019s really hard: I\u2019m offended; and I\u2019m hurt; and I feel incredible shame myself. It brings up all my own junk. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think that\u2019s a really good question; because we think, \u201cOh, this is going to be <em>awesome<\/em>; I\u2019m going to know everything.\u201d It can be really <em>difficult<\/em> to go there. It took us probably <em>years<\/em> to kind of\u2014not only get into pornography\u2014but going into deeper issues of growing up: shame, and abuse, and alcohol. We didn\u2019t know how much it was affecting us until we talked to one another about it. As a result, it almost became like we were each other\u2019s counselors. There is something about, when the other person sees all of you, and you can still be loved in the midst of that, there is a oneness and intimacy that really can\u2019t be described; it\u2019s beautiful. It is the gospel, as we just said; but it can be really messy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes; one of the markers of that level of transparency is, again, the gospel focus; but without that, you run the risk of being enablers, and we go toward the direction of codependence; right? If there is not desire that is kind of birthed in us through the power of the Holy Spirit to be made more righteous, then it just becomes about behavior modification; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, you see, some wives, particularly\u2014it goes both sides\u2014but wives will write and they\u2019ll say: \u201cI know my husband is dealing with this thing. I don\u2019t want to bring it up, because I\u2019m just trying to maintain the level of peace that we have in our household.\u201d There is like a codependence that develops there; it\u2019s very unhealthy. In that case, transparency is not actually moving you forward. All you are doing is just learning how to coexist with the sin; and that is\u2014we are called out of that as believers. We are called to address it, lovingly and persistently, and fight the fight, run the race\u2014these are arduous words\/word pictures given to us in God\u2019s Word. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe always contrast peacemaking versus peacekeeping; right? Jesus, in Matthew, Chapter 5\u2014Sermon on the Mount\u2014says, \u201cBlessed are the peacemakers\u201d; right? He doesn\u2019t say, \u201cpeacekeepers.\u201d Peacemakers is actually\u2014the Jewish word is <em>shalom<\/em> under there; right?\u2014that all-encompassing peace that comes from God. That is circumspect peace\u2014it\u2019s not just quiet; it\u2019s not just stillness\u2014it is peace that goes down to the root of who you are. We are not called to be peacekeepers but peacemakers. That means sometimes creating unrest so that we can have a greater, deeper peace. That is the hard work of making peace that God is calling us into. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Can you kind of run us through the three lies that you talk about that keep us from pursuing transparency? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes; I love this one because Selena brought the lie-language into this, which I think is really good; because one of the best ways to work through truth in our lives is to understand the lies that tend to keep us from those truths. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>The first one is\u2014well, I just kind of just talked about it: \u201cWe can\u2019t be transparent because I\u2019m trying to keep what little peace I have.\u201d I won\u2019t rehash it; but just like we said, it\u2019s the tendency\/it\u2019s really just: \u201cI\u2019m exhausted. I can\u2019t gear up for another fight on this. I\u2019ve tried; we\u2019ve already been there.\u201d I\u2019m saying, \u201cI think God is calling us into a place of endurance here, and resting in Him, and fighting the good fight to create and make peace the way we are called.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> The second one is: \u201cI need the time alone, so I can work on myself.\u201d Writing this one was a little too personal, I think. [Laughter] It was a little too close to home; because I think that\u2019s my tendency\u2014is to just: \u201cLet me just go figure this out. Let me just\u2014let God and I just work it out. Then I\u2019ll come back to you, whole, and ready to go\/ready to be married again.\u201d I think we, then, rob our spouse of so much; and we rob our marriage and our relationship of so much growth and potential for unity and\u2014again, like you said\u2014experiencing intimacy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen the third one is: \u201cMy marriage isn\u2019t that bad. It\u2019s definitely not as bad as <em>theirs<\/em>.\u201d [Laughter] Comparison game is strong in marriage. It\u2019s not\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Oh man! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u2014it just crushes everyone; right? You know, 2 Corinthians 10:12, Paul\u2014he states that those who compare are without understanding; right? We are kind of boasting in our own knowledge\/our own abilities rather than boasting in the work of the Lord, which typically comes about through brokenness and comes about through our weaknesses. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> We call it idol polishing\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> \u2014in our own marriage in that we\u2019re like: \u201cWe\u2019re exchanging\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cone idol for another.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes; like, \u201cOh man! I feel so bad about our life because\u201d\u2014whatever that thing is\u2014\u201cwell, our life is not as together as theirs,\u201d or \u201cour Instagram feed isn\u2019t nearly as interesting or exotic,\u201d\u2014or whatever\u2014\u201cwe don\u2019t go to all of these places.\u201d Then we\u2019ll comfort each other, \u201cWell, listen; they are terrible in these ways.\u201d We just like polish our idols. [Laughter] It\u2019s like, \u201cThey fight all the time, so we\u2019re better.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u201cWe\u2019re good; we only fight like once a week.\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> I mean, how silly is that? We\u2019re not called to compare, like Selena was saying; we\u2019re being <em>fools<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u2014not productive. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> We need to boast in the Lord and what He has done in our lives. That is the only spot for us to actually have confidence. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> We don\u2019t actually get to boast. We get to boast about our weakness\u2014right?\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes; yes! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Selena:<\/strong> \u2014like Paul does; and we are really boasting about God\u2019s glory. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Well, I think as I look at those three lies\u2014and I\u2019m sure there are more\u2014but I\u2019m guessing a lot of couples have experienced all three. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI know, as I read them in the book, I was like: \u201cWhoa! I did number one,\u201d \u201cOh, I did number two,\u201d \u201cOh, I did number three; I did all three.\u201d It was like, \u201cI don\u2019t want to tell her what I\u2019m struggling with,\u201d\u2014and again, we\u2019ve been married 40 years; so this is in year 5\u2014so we\u2019re early in our marriage. I\u2019m struggling with porn. This was before digital porn; but still, I\u2019ve got this private, little struggle; and I\u2019m hiding like Adam and Eve in the Garden. Our marriage is good. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> But I could tell something was going on. He would say, \u201cOur marriage is good.\u201d I would say, \u201cOur marriage is <em>weird<\/em> right now; something is happening.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019d say, \u201cYes; but you see Joe and Sally\u2019s marriage?\u2014it\u2019s a lot better than that one!\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So number three is up there; yes. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So there I am. Then number two is: \u201cI need time alone.\u201d That was what I was playing in my head\u2014is: \u201cI\u2019ll get a handle on this. If I get a handle on it, which I will, of course, then it won\u2019t be a problem. I probably won\u2019t even need to bring it up because it will be under control.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And \u201cWhy hurt me [Ann]?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; I was not expecting\u2014what you guys shared earlier is\u2014when you shared something fully known, you were fully loved. I\u2019m thinking, \u201cIf I\u2019m fully known\u2014really fully known\/fully transparent\u2014I will not be fully loved.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, I wasn\u2019t very good at loving you at the beginning. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> No; it didn\u2019t go well. I\u2019m bringing this up because I know there are couples, who have experienced the same thing. Maybe, you did as well. It was like, \u201cOkay; I had the courage. I finally let the light in\u201d; because when you are in the dark, dark is going to suffocate; you\u2019re going to lose. Finally, I\u2019m like, \u201cOkay; I\u2019ve got to tell her,\u201d and I did. I\u2019m now living see-through marriage, and she blew up. It felt like, at the time: \u201cI should have never said it. This is hurting our marriage. She doesn\u2019t\/I don\u2019t know if she really loves me. She\u2019s like\/she didn\u2019t know this; now, she knows; but here is where we are.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, this is a process for us. It didn\u2019t get handled in a month or even six months; but now, as I look back\u2014and yes; she blew up for a while, and there was anger. Then there were tears. Then there was hurt. Now, I look back and think, \u201cIt was worth the pain to be fully known, because I feel more loved now than I\u201d\u2014because if I continued to hide that, I\u2019m not really loved; it\u2019s a false superficial love. She sees it all, and I\u2019m loved\u2014that\u2019s the gospel. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If you try it and you say, \u201cOkay; I\u2019m going to be transparent and vulnerable,\u201d and it doesn\u2019t go well\u2014because it may not\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Go back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014your spouse may be hurt. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Just know that you can keep pressing in, and persevering, and be humble, and be gentle, and be loving. Where you\u2019ll get on the other side, you\u2019ll have to go through a valley\/through some pain to get there; but where you\u2019ll get will be richer, and deeper, and a more authentic kind of love than what you are experiencing as long as you keep the veneer up, and it\u2019s just a superficial relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRyan and Selena dive deep into this in their book, <em>See-Through Marriage<\/em>, which is a book we\u2019ve got in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can go online at FamilyLifeToday.com to get a copy, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the title of the book is <em>See-Through Marriage: Experiencing the Freedom and Joy of Being Fully Known and Fully Loved<\/em> by Ryan and Selena Frederick. Order your copy, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the things that can interfere with intimacy and with transparency in a marriage is if we\u2019ve experienced betrayal in a relationship. We talked about this earlier this week when Phil Waldrep joined us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. His book, <em>Beyond Betrayal<\/em>, is a book that we\u2019re making available to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners, who can help support the ministry with a donation. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think most of you realize that the reason we were able to have this conversation today, and you were able to join in, is because a listener, like you, cared enough about this kind of ministry happening that they made a donation to support the ongoing work of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. If you\u2019d like to see this continue\u2014pay it forward\/invest in the lives of other couples\u2014you can do that by donating today. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com; make an online donation; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. When you do, again, ask for your copy of Phil Waldrep\u2019s book, <em>Beyond Betrayal<\/em>. We\u2019re happy to send it to you as a way to say, \u201cThank you for investing in the lives of so many people and supporting the work of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope you can join us, again, tomorrow when we\u2019re going to talk about the fear that is there in a relationship that keeps us from being transparent with one another and what we do about that. Ryan and Selena Frederick join us tomorrow. I hope you can join us as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/306414","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=306414"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=306414"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=306414"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=306414"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=306414"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=306414"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=306414"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}