{"id":306409,"date":"2020-09-15T07:00:05","date_gmt":"2020-09-15T11:00:05","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/stages-of-grief-over-betrayal\/"},"modified":"2020-09-15T07:00:05","modified_gmt":"2020-09-15T11:00:05","slug":"stages-of-grief-over-betrayal","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/stages-of-grief-over-betrayal\/","title":{"rendered":"Stages of Grief Over Betrayal"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>When Phil Waldrep&#8217;s friend betrayed him a second time, the hurt of this man&#8217;s actions caused a struggle that wasn&#8217;t easy to recover from. Waldrep walks us through the various stages of grief he dealt with.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-09-15.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:25:36","filesize":"23.44M","filesize_raw":"24575174","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2848,2908,2821,2827],"tags":[4379],"podcast_series":[8391],"cwp_profile":[3212],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-306409","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cultural-issues","category-forgiveness","category-reaching-out","category-repentance","tag-betrayal","podcast_series-beyond-betrayal","cwp_profile-phil-waldrep","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/306409\/stages-of-grief-over-betrayal","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/306409\/stages-of-grief-over-betrayal","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"jXCQqCN8KQ\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/stages-of-grief-over-betrayal\/\">Stages of Grief Over Betrayal<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/stages-of-grief-over-betrayal\/embed\/#?secret=jXCQqCN8KQ\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Stages of Grief Over Betrayal&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"jXCQqCN8KQ\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-09-15.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-09-15.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>As a pastor and Bible teacher, Phil Waldrep knew that, if someone betrayed him, he had a responsibility before God to forgive that person. But when betrayal happened, Phil recognized there were some things about forgiveness he still needed to learn.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>I had always misunderstood forgiveness. I thought if I forgave someone, it meant I had to immediately restore the relationship to the same level it was before the betrayal; meaning, if I forgave him, that meant I had to hire him again. I\u2019m like, \u201cNo! Forgiveness does not mean I have to restore the relationship at the same level it was before the betrayal.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, September 15<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. What does it look like to forgive a betrayer? What\u2019s included in that forgiveness and what isn\u2019t? We\u2019re going to talk today with Phil Waldrep about that. Stay with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I think most people are familiar with the famous five stages of grief\u2014you know, that when somebody experiences grief, there are these stages you walk through.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I\u2019ve been going through those for years with the Detroit Lions. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>You have, actually!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014as the chaplain.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I think I\u2019m still in anger.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>The losingest chaplain in the NFL. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s interesting\u2014because you can follow people on a journey, often, when they\u2019ve experienced deep grief. We\u2019re talking this week about the issue of betrayal. There are stages that we go through, when we experience betrayal, that kind of mirror those stages of grief; but there [is] some uniqueness to this as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I also think you don\u2019t get to the other side of betrayal\u2014to forgiveness\u2014without going through. It isn\u2019t like: \u201cI can fly over this tunnel,\u201d \u201cI can drive around\u2026\u201d\u2014no; you have to go through that dark tunnel. It\u2019s going to be chaotic, and it\u2019s not going to be fun; but at the end of it, there is light; but you\u2019re not going to get there unless you go <em>through<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You\u2019re saying that, if somebody becomes aware of betrayal, and their first response is, \u201cI forgive you,\u201d they probably\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014probably not.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014haven\u2019t really dealt with this at all.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I think there is a lot of talk around the grief process, but I don\u2019t think there\u2019s a lot of help in the betrayal process.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, there is now\u2014[Laughter] \u2014because Phil Waldrep, who is joining us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, has written on this. Phil, welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Thank you. It\u2019s <em>great<\/em> to be here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Phil is a ministry leader, an author, a speaker. We\u2019ve talked about the fact that I think of him as the go-to person on the issue of prodigals with what he\u2019s written and how he\u2019s spoken on that. Now, the book he\u2019s written, called <em>Beyond Betrayal<\/em>, gives us a path to follow when trust has been violated and when we\u2019ve experienced betrayal, whether it\u2019s in a marriage and family setting or in a workplace setting. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019ve already shared with us about your own experience of profound betrayal with a friend and coworker, who was leading a double life and, ultimately, had to leave the ministry. His marriage ended as a result of what came out. That awareness that your friend had betrayed you was just the beginning of what became a years\u2019-long journey for you to walk the path of healing from the betrayal you experienced.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>It was; and for me, it was understanding that this process would take time. I began to think that there were certain things that happened that I would be beyond it; for example, okay, his last day in the office; and now he\u2019s gone; and I\u2019m beyond it\/moved out of the area; I will be beyond it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNone of those things I was able to get beyond the betrayal, because the issue was not him; the issue was <em>me<\/em>. Now, granted, he was the one who sinned\/he was the one who betrayed me; but at this point, it\u2019s God dealing with <em>my<\/em> life and helping to heal the hurts in my life, but also helping <em>me<\/em> to come to the place where I could genuinely forgive him and behold once again.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This was somebody who had represented himself one way in terms of ministry work, saying, \u201cI\u2019m going to go to this city for this reason\u201d; there was another purpose that you didn\u2019t know about. \u201cThis money is for this\u201d; there were other purposes. When all of this came to light, you entered into what is kind of the beginning point when you understand betrayal\u2014you got angry; didn\u2019t you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>I did. In fact, before I got angry, I denied it. Even when I got through the experience, you still try to find reasons to say, \u201cThis didn\u2019t happen,\u201d or to say\u2014sometimes people have even said: \u201cWell, I knew it was going to happen,\u201d \u201cI saw it coming,\u201d\u2014\u201cWe\u2019re going to be strong.\u201d But I kept trying to <em>deny<\/em> <em>it<\/em> in my <em>own<\/em> life; because for me, I was feeling guilty because: \u201cHow can <em>I<\/em> have been so dumb?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the things that didn\u2019t help\u2014and let me say this for all of those, who are listening, who have been through a betrayal\u2014your spouse has been unfaithful\u2014there are always\/I call them \u201cthe friends of Job.\u201d You remember Job in the Old Testament?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Friends come; you\u2019re going through a crisis, and they give you advice. I\u2019ve always thought it was rather interesting\u2014when you read the Book of Job, we find in the first three chapters what happened to Job; but for the next twenty-seven or twenty-eight chapters is the advice of his friends. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen you go through a betrayal, there are <em>a lot<\/em> of people who will step into your life to give you advice. Now, usually the advice starts this way: \u201cWell, I thought about coming and telling you what <em>I<\/em> saw and what <em>I<\/em> knew,\u201d and then you get angry at <em>them<\/em>!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>\u201cWhy didn\u2019t you come tell me? Why didn\u2019t you\u2026\u201d They\u2019re trying to\u2014they\u2019re really trying to sympathize with you or empathize with you; they really are <em>trying<\/em> to be helpful. Then, of course, they start telling you all of their betrayals. Generally, they haven\u2019t healed from their betrayals, so then we start having pity parties; and we start comparing, \u201cWell, your betrayal is worse than my betrayal.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, it\u2019s interesting\u2014one of the harshest letters that I\u2019ve received, after <em>Beyond Betrayal<\/em>\/this book came out, was from a lady, who said, \u201cYou don\u2019t know what betrayal is.\u201d She told me about her very painful marriage. I wrote her back and I said, \u201cNo, marriage is\u2014when a spouse has been unfaithful, I think that is probably the <em>deepest<\/em> betrayal you can experience,\u201d and very close to that would be a sexual abuse situation. I am in no way comparing a business to that; but the pain is still <em>real<\/em>, regardless of what the betrayal is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOnce I got through the denial, and I had to come to the realization, I did get angry. Now, people think of anger as throwing things and screaming at people; I didn\u2019t do that. For one thing, I\u2019m in ministry\u2014 [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>So you just faked it!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>You know, I have to do that alone with the Lord. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut inwardly, I was angry towards the Lord\u2014I was, \u201cHow could You let this happen? Why didn\u2019t You let me see what was going on?\u201d I was angry toward <em>Him<\/em>. I was angry, at one point for a brief time, towards his wife, because she knew; but she was dealing with her own pain. Why didn\u2019t other people, who I found out later were aware of some things, but they didn\u2019t come tell me? I was <em>so angry<\/em>. You know, Paul said, \u201cBe angry and sin not.\u201d I don\u2019t think anger in and of itself is sinful; I mean, Paul made that very clear. It\u2019s what I do with that anger.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, when I see people, who get involved in human trafficking, that makes me angry; but I want to channel that in a constructive, helpful, productive way. But when anger reaches and grips your heart, and it begins to control you, and control your thoughts and your actions, that\u2019s not healthy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That\u2019s what the Bible means when it says that: \u201cThe anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>If we\u2019re not handling it rightly, it can be <em>very<\/em> destructive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>And most people don\u2019t\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That\u2019s true!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014even in ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo you didn\u2019t throw things\u2014you said\u2014what\u2019d you do?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Well, you know, there\u2019s something\u2014and I recommend this in my book, <em>Beyond Betrayal<\/em>\u2014there\u2019s something I did that I have done for <em>years<\/em>, but I had not done it to that level. I\u2019d always been a person who kept a journal. Now, I originally kept a journal because there are so many things going on in ministry you forget\u2014and \u201cI was here,\u201d and \u201cI was there,\u201d\u2014and you want to preserve that for your family and for ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I never really poured my <em>feelings<\/em> into my journal. I began to sit down every day and, in my journal, told the Lord, and even in some cases my friend, on paper, exactly what I was feeling.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Sounds like something David did.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>That\u2019s true! In fact, you know, when you read the Book of Psalms\u2014I tell people the Book of Psalms is really a book of David\u2019s feelings of betrayal\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>\u2014he put how he felt. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, there were times that I wrote things on paper\u2014I have to be honest\u2014I shredded it when I got through. I don\u2019t even know if I want to read it again. But what I discovered was, by putting words to paper, it allowed me to process what was taking place. Unfortunately, many times when we\u2019re angry, we verbalize it to other people; and you can\u2019t take back words you say. You can\u2019t take back what you said to your child, or your spouse, or your neighbor, or your best friend, or your pastor what you said in anger.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, as someone who travels and speaks in churches all the time, one of the reasons why I talk about betrayal is\u2014I discovered most people in the church have never processed the betrayal in their church well. Now, we call that unforgiveness, but they haven\u2019t processed it. One of the things I want to have people do is process it. For me, to deal with the anger stage was put it to paper\/write it down.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I think of my own journey here; and my tendency, Phil, is going to be to jump past how I\u2019m feeling and go to how I think I\u2019m supposed to be feeling and write that down. That\u2019s because: \u201cI\u2019m a good Christian; and I know good Christians aren\u2019t supposed to feel this way, so I\u2019ll just compartmentalize how I\u2019m feeling and write down how I think I\u2019m supposed to be feeling.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>You\u2019re much more self-controlled than I am! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>But that\u2019s not what David did; that\u2019s not what the Book of Psalms does. There\u2019s something that\u2019s actually\u2014God wants us to enter into and own up to and say: \u201cNo; let\u2019s not go to where you\u2019re supposed to be. Let\u2019s go to where you really are, and let\u2019s be honest about that; because that\u2019ll help you get to where you need to be.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I think this is a really good step, because I know that I felt a betrayal with a woman that I knew. I felt like she had, not only betrayed me, but then she was gossiping about me. Instead of going to God and journaling what I was feeling, I would get on my computer, and I\u2019m getting ready to send an email. I\u2019m telling you\u2014I just vented all of it. But I was wise enough, then, to take that to God and say\u2014I\u2019m right about to hit the \u201cSend\u201d\u2014and I said, \u201cLord, can I send this?\u201d because I wanted to; because in betrayal, you want to hurt the other person.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEvery single time I was about to hit that \u201cSend,\u201d God would bring me back to Luke; and every time, I would hear this: \u201cBlessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness. Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you, falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad\u2026\u201d Every time, I felt like God was saying, \u201cLove your enemies; do good to those who hurt you.\u201d Not that you don\u2019t put boundaries up; but every time I felt like, \u201cOkay, I need to go to God before I go to my computer and send an email, because God is the one that can sift through the anger and the betrayal first.\u201d That\u2019s been helpful.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>There were a few days when I wrote those emails.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>You did?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Yes; but here\u2019s what I did\u2014the Lord told me I could write all the emails I wanted and I could send them, <em>provided<\/em> that I used an email address that came back to me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Oh, see that\u2019s smart. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>I sent it; I got the feelings of having sent it, but then it went over here to an email box that only went to me. That sounds trivial, but\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>It\u2019s therapeutic.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>\u2014but it\u2019s very helpful to put it to paper. That\u2019s what David did.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>There\u2019s another part of this anger that\u2014you talk about this in the book\u2014in betrayal, we move into isolation. Do we isolate ourselves, or do we find ourselves isolated because of the betrayal?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>We isolate ourselves because we don\u2019t want to be hurt again. I think there\u2019s a natural tendency for us to think, \u201cA person or persons [have] hurt me. The best way to prevent future pain is to isolate myself from people.\u201d We think\u2014if we build this big wall around our heart\u2014\u201cIf I build it high enough to keep people out, I\u2019ll never be hurt again.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe problem is\u2014a wall high enough to keep people out is a wall high enough to keep love out. God created us for relationships, and He created us for love. If He didn\u2019t, He would have created the earth with millions of little islands and given us all our own island. [Laughter] But He didn\u2019t do that; He created us to interact with people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo we don\u2019t want to isolate ourselves emotionally. You know, you can be physically present and yet be absent all at the same time. You know, you want to be present; you don\u2019t want to hurt the people who hurt you. I don\u2019t know who said this; I\u2019ve searched several places and I find it is always attributed to someone who\u2019s anonymous, but it really spoke to me\u2014it said, \u201cIf you don\u2019t heal what hurts you, you will bleed on people who didn\u2019t cut you.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Ooh, that\u2019s good.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>That really helped me to understand that I was\u2014you know, it was affecting my wife; it was affecting my kids; it was affecting other people in our ministry, even though I thought I was walking with God and I was spiritual.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Your point\u2019s a great one. We isolate because we\u2019ve just had the experience of a violation of trust and what we thought was love and safe\u2014it\u2019s not\u2014so we think, \u201cWell, I can\u2019t go near relationships anymore, because that\u2019s the danger\/that\u2019s the threat.\u201d We have to recognize: \u201cNo; God made us for relationships; first for a relationship with Him, and then for a relationship with others. Isolation\u2019s not an option that we can live with.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Right, and it\u2019s not healthy. I mean, there\u2019s a reason why our Lord created the church; it was for us to be with people, who had been through their own experiences. One of the things that was helpful to me was I found myself drawn to some older senior adult believers that I know, 20 years ago\/50 years ago, had gone through a betrayal. Some of them were willing\u201475-, 80-, 85-year-olds\u2014would go to lunch with me, and they just let me tell my story. Then they looked at me\u2014and they didn\u2019t tell me their stories; because most of them, I knew their stories\u2014but they walked through what the Lord had taught them. They kept assuring me, \u201cYou\u2019re going to get there with time.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ll tell you one of the things I learned during that experience that was so helpful for me. I had always misunderstood forgiveness. I\u2019ll explain how: I thought, if I forgave someone, it meant I had to immediately restore the relationship to the same level it was before the betrayal; meaning, if I forgave him, that meant I had to hire him again. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA lady recently\u2014we were talking, and she was struggling with forgiveness\u2014and she said, \u201cYou know, my ex-husband molested our child. But if I forgive him, does that mean I have to bring him back into the household?\u201d It was a stepfather situation. I\u2019m like, \u201cNo! No, no! Forgiveness does not mean I have to restore the relationship at the same level.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, it\u2019s speculation, but it\u2019s worth considering: \u201cWhat if Judas had repented? What would have been his role in the New Testament church? Would he have been at the level of an apostle, or would he have just been an average member?\u201d Now, that\u2019s total speculation, and it\u2019s a little dangerous to go there, but think of that thought for just a moment. Forgiveness does not mean I have to restore the relationship at the same level; only trust can do that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes; here\u2019s the illustration I\u2019ve used. Your 18-year-old son comes home; and he says, \u201cMom\/Dad, I was driving too fast tonight and I got into a wreck; and it dinged up the fender\u2026\u201d You say, \u201cAre you okay?\u201d \u201cYes; I\u2019m okay.\u201d \u201cHow much damage to the car?\u201d \u201cWell, I think it\u2019s pretty damaged.\u201d He says, \u201cI\u2019m so sorry; I shouldn\u2019t have been driving that fast; will you forgive me?\u201d You say, \u201cOf course we forgive you.\u201d Then he says, \u201cCan I have the keys to Mom\u2019s car?\u201d You go, \u201cNo, we\u2019re not giving you the keys to Mom\u2019s car. We have some work to do.\u201d Forgiveness and rebuilding trust are two completely different functions.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, you can\u2019t start rebuilding trust if forgiveness hasn\u2019t happened; but you can\u2019t assume that, because forgiveness has happened, trust has been restored or that it can ever be fully restored, given the level of the betrayal.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>You know, it\u2019s interesting\u2014in the Bible, we are told to encourage people, love people, exhort people; and we\u2019re told many times to trust God. But do you know that there\u2019s not one verse in the Bible that tells you to trust people?\u2014not one\u2014because trust <em>must<\/em> be earned. We trust people either based on our personal experience or through someone we trust in their experience. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, I came here today to do this interview. Granted, that\u2019s because I\u2019ve been here before; but if it was my first visit, I\u2019m like, \u201cI don\u2019t know these people. Are they going to do what they say they do? No; but there are people that I know\/that I trust, who have been here before.\u201d Now, that\u2019s a simple illustration, but it\u2019s the same thing in life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen someone has <em>shattered<\/em> the trust, they need to understand it takes time to build that trust. You know, I don\u2019t walk out of here today and walk out here and see somebody on the street I\u2019ve never seen before\/never met, and I say, \u201cLook, I need to run down here. Would you mind holding my wallet while I go?\u201d You don\u2019t do that, because I don\u2019t know that person. Trust is something that takes time. Once it is shattered, it has to be put back together with time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s the reason why, again, I say: \u201cEvery person, who is the betrayer, you must be accountable. If you\u2019re trying to rebuild your marriage, you have to say, \u2018You can look at my phone every time; here are all of my passwords. If I\u2019m somewhere, and I\u2019m a little longer than I need to be, I\u2019m going to call. You have permission to call.\u2019\u201d I say to the betrayer: \u201cThat may be a little bit of a burden to you, but you need to understand that\u2019s the only way you\u2019re going to rebuild trust.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I mean, you can knock down a Lego<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> set in five seconds; and it\u2019s going to take a day, maybe, to rebuild.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHere\u2019s a question: \u201cCan you forgive someone and not be reconciled in the relationship?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>I think so.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>I\u2019ll tell you the reason why; and again, I\u2019ll use the painful experience of sexual abuse. A dear friend, who was terribly sexually abused when she was a child by her father\u2014and years later, he came to know the Lord\u2014and he wanted her forgiveness. She walked through that experience; she forgave him; but she said to him, \u201cDad, I don\u2019t want you around my children. I just don\u2019t feel comfortable with you being around my children.\u201d People judged her for that; they said, \u201cOh, you shouldn\u2019t do that.\u201d She said, \u201cNo; I\u2019m not comfortable. I\u2019ve forgiven my dad.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor me, and I think scripturally, forgiveness means: \u201cI give up my rights to revenge. When I get the opportunity to get even with you, I choose <em>not<\/em> to get even.\u201d That means, if I\u2019m in a situation and someone says something nice about the person who betrayed me, I don\u2019t feel this need to settle the score, or to correct the gossip, or to send emails. No; I can sit there and say, \u201cI wish God\u2019s best.\u201d I don\u2019t have to clarify to everybody what they did to me. Forgiveness means that I don\u2019t get the right to be even.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ll tell you\u2014one of the days\/there were a couple of days that I knew I had forgiven the person who betrayed me. One of those was\u201420 years later, I get a phone call. He\u2019s applied for a job, and they wanted a reference. I\u2019m thinking, \u201cWhat am I going to say?\u201d I told the Lord, \u201cLord, I need wisdom,\u201d and it was like the Lord just spoke to my heart and said, \u201cAnswer their questions.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey asked me two or three things concerning his work ethic; and they said, \u201cThank you,\u201d and hung up the phone. I didn\u2019t say anything unkind; I didn\u2019t say anything untruthful. The Lord let me have that experience to realize I really had forgiven him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>One of the fruit or benefits of real forgiveness is freedom.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>You\u2019re not controlled anymore by that person, and you had freedom. When I forgave my dad\u2014I\u2019ve stood on my church stage many times and said to the men and anybody, really\u2014\u201cI\u2019m free.\u201d I wasn\u2019t free until I was 35 years old. I don\u2019t think I became a man until 35; because I was sort of in bondage to a man, who walked out on me when I was a little boy; and I couldn\u2019t forgive him. Actually, I could; I chose not to until I allowed God to do it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut the <em>freedom<\/em> that comes when you can love them, and wish them well, and give up your right to punish is something that\u2019s <em>beautiful<\/em>. You experienced that. In that moment, you had freedom to go, \u201cI don\u2019t have to control this situation; I can bless him.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>And they don\u2019t control <em>me<\/em> anymore.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>That\u2019s a big one.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You have to know there are people who can relate to the pain we\u2019ve talked about today\/can relate to the isolation we\u2019ve talked about today. They\u2019re not at a place where they can relate to the freedom or to the forgiveness. They\u2019re still on this journey and in process. This is where I think you need people around you, who are not like Job\u2019s friends\u2014[Laughter]\u2014but who will sit with you; and in your pain, be with you. You need people who can coach you and counsel you. You need a book like the book Phil\u2019s written, <em>Beyond Betrayal: Overcome Past Hurts and Begin to Trust Again<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, we\u2019re making your book available this week, Phil, to any of our listeners who have experienced betrayal; or if you know someone who is going through this and you want to help them, get a copy of Phil\u2019s book, <em>Beyond Betrayal<\/em>. It\u2019s our thank-you gift this week when you support the ongoing work of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. This is something we have been helping couples with for decades, because betrayal in marriage is one of the hardest obstacles to overcome. When trust has been violated, trying to rebuild trust is not something you do overnight. You don\u2019t do this in a few weeks with a couple of counseling sessions. This takes time, and it takes consistency; it takes humility; it takes a work of the Holy Spirit.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> exists to help effectively develop godly marriages and families, first of all to keep betrayal from happening, but to help us understand how to respond when it does happen and how to rebuild a relationship. Again, if you can help with a donation to help the ongoing work of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> continue, go to FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014donate online\u2014or call 1-800-FL-TODAY, and be sure to ask for your copy of Phil Waldrep\u2019s book, <em>Beyond Betrayal<\/em>. It\u2019s our appreciation gift to you for your partnership with us, here, in the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. We are grateful; and we\u2019re happy to send a copy of Phil\u2019s book out to you as a way of saying, \u201cThank you.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we\u2019re going to talk about the process of rebuilding trust: what that includes; how you can figure out if somebody really is trustworthy again or not. That\u2019s not an exact science. We\u2019ll talk more about it tomorrow. Phil Waldrep will be with us again; I hope you can be here as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:25:36"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["23.44M"],"filesize_raw":["24575174"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-306409.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-306409.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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Phil Waldrep's friend betrayed him a second time, the hurt of this man's actions caused a struggle that wasn't easy to recover from. Waldrep walks us through the various stages of grief he dealt with.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-09-15.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>As a pastor and Bible teacher, Phil Waldrep knew that, if someone betrayed him, he had a responsibility before God to forgive that person. But when betrayal happened, Phil recognized there were some things about forgiveness he still needed to learn.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>I had always misunderstood forgiveness. I thought if I forgave someone, it meant I had to immediately restore the relationship to the same level it was before the betrayal; meaning, if I forgave him, that meant I had to hire him again. I\u2019m like, \u201cNo! Forgiveness does not mean I have to restore the relationship at the same level it was before the betrayal.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, September 15<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. What does it look like to forgive a betrayer? What\u2019s included in that forgiveness and what isn\u2019t? We\u2019re going to talk today with Phil Waldrep about that. Stay with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I think most people are familiar with the famous five stages of grief\u2014you know, that when somebody experiences grief, there are these stages you walk through.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I\u2019ve been going through those for years with the Detroit Lions. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>You have, actually!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014as the chaplain.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I think I\u2019m still in anger.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>The losingest chaplain in the NFL. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s interesting\u2014because you can follow people on a journey, often, when they\u2019ve experienced deep grief. We\u2019re talking this week about the issue of betrayal. There are stages that we go through, when we experience betrayal, that kind of mirror those stages of grief; but there [is] some uniqueness to this as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I also think you don\u2019t get to the other side of betrayal\u2014to forgiveness\u2014without going through. It isn\u2019t like: \u201cI can fly over this tunnel,\u201d \u201cI can drive around\u2026\u201d\u2014no; you have to go through that dark tunnel. It\u2019s going to be chaotic, and it\u2019s not going to be fun; but at the end of it, there is light; but you\u2019re not going to get there unless you go <em>through<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You\u2019re saying that, if somebody becomes aware of betrayal, and their first response is, \u201cI forgive you,\u201d they probably\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014probably not.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014haven\u2019t really dealt with this at all.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I think there is a lot of talk around the grief process, but I don\u2019t think there\u2019s a lot of help in the betrayal process.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, there is now\u2014[Laughter] \u2014because Phil Waldrep, who is joining us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, has written on this. Phil, welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Thank you. It\u2019s <em>great<\/em> to be here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Phil is a ministry leader, an author, a speaker. We\u2019ve talked about the fact that I think of him as the go-to person on the issue of prodigals with what he\u2019s written and how he\u2019s spoken on that. Now, the book he\u2019s written, called <em>Beyond Betrayal<\/em>, gives us a path to follow when trust has been violated and when we\u2019ve experienced betrayal, whether it\u2019s in a marriage and family setting or in a workplace setting. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019ve already shared with us about your own experience of profound betrayal with a friend and coworker, who was leading a double life and, ultimately, had to leave the ministry. His marriage ended as a result of what came out. That awareness that your friend had betrayed you was just the beginning of what became a years\u2019-long journey for you to walk the path of healing from the betrayal you experienced.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>It was; and for me, it was understanding that this process would take time. I began to think that there were certain things that happened that I would be beyond it; for example, okay, his last day in the office; and now he\u2019s gone; and I\u2019m beyond it\/moved out of the area; I will be beyond it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNone of those things I was able to get beyond the betrayal, because the issue was not him; the issue was <em>me<\/em>. Now, granted, he was the one who sinned\/he was the one who betrayed me; but at this point, it\u2019s God dealing with <em>my<\/em> life and helping to heal the hurts in my life, but also helping <em>me<\/em> to come to the place where I could genuinely forgive him and behold once again.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This was somebody who had represented himself one way in terms of ministry work, saying, \u201cI\u2019m going to go to this city for this reason\u201d; there was another purpose that you didn\u2019t know about. \u201cThis money is for this\u201d; there were other purposes. When all of this came to light, you entered into what is kind of the beginning point when you understand betrayal\u2014you got angry; didn\u2019t you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>I did. In fact, before I got angry, I denied it. Even when I got through the experience, you still try to find reasons to say, \u201cThis didn\u2019t happen,\u201d or to say\u2014sometimes people have even said: \u201cWell, I knew it was going to happen,\u201d \u201cI saw it coming,\u201d\u2014\u201cWe\u2019re going to be strong.\u201d But I kept trying to <em>deny<\/em> <em>it<\/em> in my <em>own<\/em> life; because for me, I was feeling guilty because: \u201cHow can <em>I<\/em> have been so dumb?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the things that didn\u2019t help\u2014and let me say this for all of those, who are listening, who have been through a betrayal\u2014your spouse has been unfaithful\u2014there are always\/I call them \u201cthe friends of Job.\u201d You remember Job in the Old Testament?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Friends come; you\u2019re going through a crisis, and they give you advice. I\u2019ve always thought it was rather interesting\u2014when you read the Book of Job, we find in the first three chapters what happened to Job; but for the next twenty-seven or twenty-eight chapters is the advice of his friends. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen you go through a betrayal, there are <em>a lot<\/em> of people who will step into your life to give you advice. Now, usually the advice starts this way: \u201cWell, I thought about coming and telling you what <em>I<\/em> saw and what <em>I<\/em> knew,\u201d and then you get angry at <em>them<\/em>!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>\u201cWhy didn\u2019t you come tell me? Why didn\u2019t you\u2026\u201d They\u2019re trying to\u2014they\u2019re really trying to sympathize with you or empathize with you; they really are <em>trying<\/em> to be helpful. Then, of course, they start telling you all of their betrayals. Generally, they haven\u2019t healed from their betrayals, so then we start having pity parties; and we start comparing, \u201cWell, your betrayal is worse than my betrayal.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, it\u2019s interesting\u2014one of the harshest letters that I\u2019ve received, after <em>Beyond Betrayal<\/em>\/this book came out, was from a lady, who said, \u201cYou don\u2019t know what betrayal is.\u201d She told me about her very painful marriage. I wrote her back and I said, \u201cNo, marriage is\u2014when a spouse has been unfaithful, I think that is probably the <em>deepest<\/em> betrayal you can experience,\u201d and very close to that would be a sexual abuse situation. I am in no way comparing a business to that; but the pain is still <em>real<\/em>, regardless of what the betrayal is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOnce I got through the denial, and I had to come to the realization, I did get angry. Now, people think of anger as throwing things and screaming at people; I didn\u2019t do that. For one thing, I\u2019m in ministry\u2014 [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>So you just faked it!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>You know, I have to do that alone with the Lord. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut inwardly, I was angry towards the Lord\u2014I was, \u201cHow could You let this happen? Why didn\u2019t You let me see what was going on?\u201d I was angry toward <em>Him<\/em>. I was angry, at one point for a brief time, towards his wife, because she knew; but she was dealing with her own pain. Why didn\u2019t other people, who I found out later were aware of some things, but they didn\u2019t come tell me? I was <em>so angry<\/em>. You know, Paul said, \u201cBe angry and sin not.\u201d I don\u2019t think anger in and of itself is sinful; I mean, Paul made that very clear. It\u2019s what I do with that anger.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, when I see people, who get involved in human trafficking, that makes me angry; but I want to channel that in a constructive, helpful, productive way. But when anger reaches and grips your heart, and it begins to control you, and control your thoughts and your actions, that\u2019s not healthy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That\u2019s what the Bible means when it says that: \u201cThe anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>If we\u2019re not handling it rightly, it can be <em>very<\/em> destructive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>And most people don\u2019t\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That\u2019s true!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014even in ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo you didn\u2019t throw things\u2014you said\u2014what\u2019d you do?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Well, you know, there\u2019s something\u2014and I recommend this in my book, <em>Beyond Betrayal<\/em>\u2014there\u2019s something I did that I have done for <em>years<\/em>, but I had not done it to that level. I\u2019d always been a person who kept a journal. Now, I originally kept a journal because there are so many things going on in ministry you forget\u2014and \u201cI was here,\u201d and \u201cI was there,\u201d\u2014and you want to preserve that for your family and for ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I never really poured my <em>feelings<\/em> into my journal. I began to sit down every day and, in my journal, told the Lord, and even in some cases my friend, on paper, exactly what I was feeling.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Sounds like something David did.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>That\u2019s true! In fact, you know, when you read the Book of Psalms\u2014I tell people the Book of Psalms is really a book of David\u2019s feelings of betrayal\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>\u2014he put how he felt. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, there were times that I wrote things on paper\u2014I have to be honest\u2014I shredded it when I got through. I don\u2019t even know if I want to read it again. But what I discovered was, by putting words to paper, it allowed me to process what was taking place. Unfortunately, many times when we\u2019re angry, we verbalize it to other people; and you can\u2019t take back words you say. You can\u2019t take back what you said to your child, or your spouse, or your neighbor, or your best friend, or your pastor what you said in anger.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, as someone who travels and speaks in churches all the time, one of the reasons why I talk about betrayal is\u2014I discovered most people in the church have never processed the betrayal in their church well. Now, we call that unforgiveness, but they haven\u2019t processed it. One of the things I want to have people do is process it. For me, to deal with the anger stage was put it to paper\/write it down.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I think of my own journey here; and my tendency, Phil, is going to be to jump past how I\u2019m feeling and go to how I think I\u2019m supposed to be feeling and write that down. That\u2019s because: \u201cI\u2019m a good Christian; and I know good Christians aren\u2019t supposed to feel this way, so I\u2019ll just compartmentalize how I\u2019m feeling and write down how I think I\u2019m supposed to be feeling.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>You\u2019re much more self-controlled than I am! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>But that\u2019s not what David did; that\u2019s not what the Book of Psalms does. There\u2019s something that\u2019s actually\u2014God wants us to enter into and own up to and say: \u201cNo; let\u2019s not go to where you\u2019re supposed to be. Let\u2019s go to where you really are, and let\u2019s be honest about that; because that\u2019ll help you get to where you need to be.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I think this is a really good step, because I know that I felt a betrayal with a woman that I knew. I felt like she had, not only betrayed me, but then she was gossiping about me. Instead of going to God and journaling what I was feeling, I would get on my computer, and I\u2019m getting ready to send an email. I\u2019m telling you\u2014I just vented all of it. But I was wise enough, then, to take that to God and say\u2014I\u2019m right about to hit the \u201cSend\u201d\u2014and I said, \u201cLord, can I send this?\u201d because I wanted to; because in betrayal, you want to hurt the other person.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEvery single time I was about to hit that \u201cSend,\u201d God would bring me back to Luke; and every time, I would hear this: \u201cBlessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness. Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you, falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad\u2026\u201d Every time, I felt like God was saying, \u201cLove your enemies; do good to those who hurt you.\u201d Not that you don\u2019t put boundaries up; but every time I felt like, \u201cOkay, I need to go to God before I go to my computer and send an email, because God is the one that can sift through the anger and the betrayal first.\u201d That\u2019s been helpful.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>There were a few days when I wrote those emails.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>You did?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Yes; but here\u2019s what I did\u2014the Lord told me I could write all the emails I wanted and I could send them, <em>provided<\/em> that I used an email address that came back to me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Oh, see that\u2019s smart. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>I sent it; I got the feelings of having sent it, but then it went over here to an email box that only went to me. That sounds trivial, but\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>It\u2019s therapeutic.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>\u2014but it\u2019s very helpful to put it to paper. That\u2019s what David did.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>There\u2019s another part of this anger that\u2014you talk about this in the book\u2014in betrayal, we move into isolation. Do we isolate ourselves, or do we find ourselves isolated because of the betrayal?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>We isolate ourselves because we don\u2019t want to be hurt again. I think there\u2019s a natural tendency for us to think, \u201cA person or persons [have] hurt me. The best way to prevent future pain is to isolate myself from people.\u201d We think\u2014if we build this big wall around our heart\u2014\u201cIf I build it high enough to keep people out, I\u2019ll never be hurt again.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe problem is\u2014a wall high enough to keep people out is a wall high enough to keep love out. God created us for relationships, and He created us for love. If He didn\u2019t, He would have created the earth with millions of little islands and given us all our own island. [Laughter] But He didn\u2019t do that; He created us to interact with people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo we don\u2019t want to isolate ourselves emotionally. You know, you can be physically present and yet be absent all at the same time. You know, you want to be present; you don\u2019t want to hurt the people who hurt you. I don\u2019t know who said this; I\u2019ve searched several places and I find it is always attributed to someone who\u2019s anonymous, but it really spoke to me\u2014it said, \u201cIf you don\u2019t heal what hurts you, you will bleed on people who didn\u2019t cut you.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Ooh, that\u2019s good.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>That really helped me to understand that I was\u2014you know, it was affecting my wife; it was affecting my kids; it was affecting other people in our ministry, even though I thought I was walking with God and I was spiritual.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Your point\u2019s a great one. We isolate because we\u2019ve just had the experience of a violation of trust and what we thought was love and safe\u2014it\u2019s not\u2014so we think, \u201cWell, I can\u2019t go near relationships anymore, because that\u2019s the danger\/that\u2019s the threat.\u201d We have to recognize: \u201cNo; God made us for relationships; first for a relationship with Him, and then for a relationship with others. Isolation\u2019s not an option that we can live with.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Right, and it\u2019s not healthy. I mean, there\u2019s a reason why our Lord created the church; it was for us to be with people, who had been through their own experiences. One of the things that was helpful to me was I found myself drawn to some older senior adult believers that I know, 20 years ago\/50 years ago, had gone through a betrayal. Some of them were willing\u201475-, 80-, 85-year-olds\u2014would go to lunch with me, and they just let me tell my story. Then they looked at me\u2014and they didn\u2019t tell me their stories; because most of them, I knew their stories\u2014but they walked through what the Lord had taught them. They kept assuring me, \u201cYou\u2019re going to get there with time.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ll tell you one of the things I learned during that experience that was so helpful for me. I had always misunderstood forgiveness. I\u2019ll explain how: I thought, if I forgave someone, it meant I had to immediately restore the relationship to the same level it was before the betrayal; meaning, if I forgave him, that meant I had to hire him again. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA lady recently\u2014we were talking, and she was struggling with forgiveness\u2014and she said, \u201cYou know, my ex-husband molested our child. But if I forgive him, does that mean I have to bring him back into the household?\u201d It was a stepfather situation. I\u2019m like, \u201cNo! No, no! Forgiveness does not mean I have to restore the relationship at the same level.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, it\u2019s speculation, but it\u2019s worth considering: \u201cWhat if Judas had repented? What would have been his role in the New Testament church? Would he have been at the level of an apostle, or would he have just been an average member?\u201d Now, that\u2019s total speculation, and it\u2019s a little dangerous to go there, but think of that thought for just a moment. Forgiveness does not mean I have to restore the relationship at the same level; only trust can do that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes; here\u2019s the illustration I\u2019ve used. Your 18-year-old son comes home; and he says, \u201cMom\/Dad, I was driving too fast tonight and I got into a wreck; and it dinged up the fender\u2026\u201d You say, \u201cAre you okay?\u201d \u201cYes; I\u2019m okay.\u201d \u201cHow much damage to the car?\u201d \u201cWell, I think it\u2019s pretty damaged.\u201d He says, \u201cI\u2019m so sorry; I shouldn\u2019t have been driving that fast; will you forgive me?\u201d You say, \u201cOf course we forgive you.\u201d Then he says, \u201cCan I have the keys to Mom\u2019s car?\u201d You go, \u201cNo, we\u2019re not giving you the keys to Mom\u2019s car. We have some work to do.\u201d Forgiveness and rebuilding trust are two completely different functions.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, you can\u2019t start rebuilding trust if forgiveness hasn\u2019t happened; but you can\u2019t assume that, because forgiveness has happened, trust has been restored or that it can ever be fully restored, given the level of the betrayal.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>You know, it\u2019s interesting\u2014in the Bible, we are told to encourage people, love people, exhort people; and we\u2019re told many times to trust God. But do you know that there\u2019s not one verse in the Bible that tells you to trust people?\u2014not one\u2014because trust <em>must<\/em> be earned. We trust people either based on our personal experience or through someone we trust in their experience. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, I came here today to do this interview. Granted, that\u2019s because I\u2019ve been here before; but if it was my first visit, I\u2019m like, \u201cI don\u2019t know these people. Are they going to do what they say they do? No; but there are people that I know\/that I trust, who have been here before.\u201d Now, that\u2019s a simple illustration, but it\u2019s the same thing in life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen someone has <em>shattered<\/em> the trust, they need to understand it takes time to build that trust. You know, I don\u2019t walk out of here today and walk out here and see somebody on the street I\u2019ve never seen before\/never met, and I say, \u201cLook, I need to run down here. Would you mind holding my wallet while I go?\u201d You don\u2019t do that, because I don\u2019t know that person. Trust is something that takes time. Once it is shattered, it has to be put back together with time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s the reason why, again, I say: \u201cEvery person, who is the betrayer, you must be accountable. If you\u2019re trying to rebuild your marriage, you have to say, \u2018You can look at my phone every time; here are all of my passwords. If I\u2019m somewhere, and I\u2019m a little longer than I need to be, I\u2019m going to call. You have permission to call.\u2019\u201d I say to the betrayer: \u201cThat may be a little bit of a burden to you, but you need to understand that\u2019s the only way you\u2019re going to rebuild trust.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I mean, you can knock down a Lego<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> set in five seconds; and it\u2019s going to take a day, maybe, to rebuild.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHere\u2019s a question: \u201cCan you forgive someone and not be reconciled in the relationship?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>I think so.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>I\u2019ll tell you the reason why; and again, I\u2019ll use the painful experience of sexual abuse. A dear friend, who was terribly sexually abused when she was a child by her father\u2014and years later, he came to know the Lord\u2014and he wanted her forgiveness. She walked through that experience; she forgave him; but she said to him, \u201cDad, I don\u2019t want you around my children. I just don\u2019t feel comfortable with you being around my children.\u201d People judged her for that; they said, \u201cOh, you shouldn\u2019t do that.\u201d She said, \u201cNo; I\u2019m not comfortable. I\u2019ve forgiven my dad.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor me, and I think scripturally, forgiveness means: \u201cI give up my rights to revenge. When I get the opportunity to get even with you, I choose <em>not<\/em> to get even.\u201d That means, if I\u2019m in a situation and someone says something nice about the person who betrayed me, I don\u2019t feel this need to settle the score, or to correct the gossip, or to send emails. No; I can sit there and say, \u201cI wish God\u2019s best.\u201d I don\u2019t have to clarify to everybody what they did to me. Forgiveness means that I don\u2019t get the right to be even.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ll tell you\u2014one of the days\/there were a couple of days that I knew I had forgiven the person who betrayed me. One of those was\u201420 years later, I get a phone call. He\u2019s applied for a job, and they wanted a reference. I\u2019m thinking, \u201cWhat am I going to say?\u201d I told the Lord, \u201cLord, I need wisdom,\u201d and it was like the Lord just spoke to my heart and said, \u201cAnswer their questions.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey asked me two or three things concerning his work ethic; and they said, \u201cThank you,\u201d and hung up the phone. I didn\u2019t say anything unkind; I didn\u2019t say anything untruthful. The Lord let me have that experience to realize I really had forgiven him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>One of the fruit or benefits of real forgiveness is freedom.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>You\u2019re not controlled anymore by that person, and you had freedom. When I forgave my dad\u2014I\u2019ve stood on my church stage many times and said to the men and anybody, really\u2014\u201cI\u2019m free.\u201d I wasn\u2019t free until I was 35 years old. I don\u2019t think I became a man until 35; because I was sort of in bondage to a man, who walked out on me when I was a little boy; and I couldn\u2019t forgive him. Actually, I could; I chose not to until I allowed God to do it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut the <em>freedom<\/em> that comes when you can love them, and wish them well, and give up your right to punish is something that\u2019s <em>beautiful<\/em>. You experienced that. In that moment, you had freedom to go, \u201cI don\u2019t have to control this situation; I can bless him.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>And they don\u2019t control <em>me<\/em> anymore.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>That\u2019s a big one.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You have to know there are people who can relate to the pain we\u2019ve talked about today\/can relate to the isolation we\u2019ve talked about today. They\u2019re not at a place where they can relate to the freedom or to the forgiveness. They\u2019re still on this journey and in process. This is where I think you need people around you, who are not like Job\u2019s friends\u2014[Laughter]\u2014but who will sit with you; and in your pain, be with you. You need people who can coach you and counsel you. You need a book like the book Phil\u2019s written, <em>Beyond Betrayal: Overcome Past Hurts and Begin to Trust Again<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, we\u2019re making your book available this week, Phil, to any of our listeners who have experienced betrayal; or if you know someone who is going through this and you want to help them, get a copy of Phil\u2019s book, <em>Beyond Betrayal<\/em>. It\u2019s our thank-you gift this week when you support the ongoing work of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. This is something we have been helping couples with for decades, because betrayal in marriage is one of the hardest obstacles to overcome. When trust has been violated, trying to rebuild trust is not something you do overnight. You don\u2019t do this in a few weeks with a couple of counseling sessions. This takes time, and it takes consistency; it takes humility; it takes a work of the Holy Spirit.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> exists to help effectively develop godly marriages and families, first of all to keep betrayal from happening, but to help us understand how to respond when it does happen and how to rebuild a relationship. Again, if you can help with a donation to help the ongoing work of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> continue, go to FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014donate online\u2014or call 1-800-FL-TODAY, and be sure to ask for your copy of Phil Waldrep\u2019s book, <em>Beyond Betrayal<\/em>. It\u2019s our appreciation gift to you for your partnership with us, here, in the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. We are grateful; and we\u2019re happy to send a copy of Phil\u2019s book out to you as a way of saying, \u201cThank you.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we\u2019re going to talk about the process of rebuilding trust: what that includes; how you can figure out if somebody really is trustworthy again or not. That\u2019s not an exact science. We\u2019ll talk more about it tomorrow. Phil Waldrep will be with us again; I hope you can be here as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. 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