{"id":306406,"date":"2020-09-14T07:00:05","date_gmt":"2020-09-14T11:00:05","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/the-shock-of-betrayal\/"},"modified":"2020-09-14T07:00:05","modified_gmt":"2020-09-14T11:00:05","slug":"the-shock-of-betrayal","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-shock-of-betrayal\/","title":{"rendered":"The Shock of Betrayal"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Dave and Ann Wilson join Pastor Phil Waldrep, author of the book &#8220;Beyond Betrayal,&#8221; to discuss the process of healing from betrayal. Whether you&#8217;ve been betrayed by a close friend or family member, Waldrep shares a trusted path to recovery.<br \/>\nShow Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tFind resources from this podcast at https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=95.<br \/>\n \tCheck out all that&#8217;s available on the FamilyLife Podcast Network.\u00a0 https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/<br \/>\n \tHave the FamilyLife Today\u00ae podcast and resources helped you?\u00a0 Consider becoming a Legacy Partner, a monthly supporter of FamilyLife.\u00a0https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/legacy<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Pastor Phil Waldrep discusses the process of healing from betrayal. Whether you&#8217;ve been betrayed by a close friend or family member, Waldrep shares a trusted path to recovery.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-09-14.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:24:51","filesize":"22.75M","filesize_raw":"23851859","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2848,2908,2827],"tags":[4379],"podcast_series":[8391],"cwp_profile":[3212],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-306406","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cultural-issues","category-forgiveness","category-repentance","tag-betrayal","podcast_series-beyond-betrayal","cwp_profile-phil-waldrep","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/306406\/the-shock-of-betrayal","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/306406\/the-shock-of-betrayal","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"668sPCqZFd\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-shock-of-betrayal\/\">The Shock of Betrayal<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-shock-of-betrayal\/embed\/#?secret=668sPCqZFd\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;The Shock of Betrayal&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"668sPCqZFd\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-09-14.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-09-14.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>What do we do when we learn that someone we\u2019ve trusted has been untrustworthy? Phil Waldrep experienced that with a ministry associate, and it hit him hard.\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> The first thing that happens is you think, \u201cHow can <em>I<\/em> be so stupid? Why didn\u2019t <em>I<\/em> see the signs?\u201d Suddenly, your precious couldn\u2019t-get-better-than-this world is <em>shattered<\/em>. And when your world is shattered, now you have all of these broken pieces. You don\u2019t know who to trust; because: \u201cWait a minute; if I can\u2019t trust <em>him<\/em>, can I trust the other people in my ministry? If I can\u2019t trust <em>him<\/em>, can I trust the people at church?\u201d All of a sudden, you don\u2019t trust anybody.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, September 14<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. Betrayal can rock our world, so how do we respond? How do we recover? Phil Waldrep joins us today to help us think, biblically, about betrayal. Stay with us.\n\nWelcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. You guys know, from working with couples\u2014the point where you start to look and go, \u201cCan this relationship be rescued when trust has been violated in a significant way?\u201d\u2014the rebuilding of trust is one of the hardest things to do in a marriage relationship and family relationships. When there\u2019s been betrayal, that leads to that breaking of trust. You\u2019ve got hard work ahead of you to get to a relationship that can thrive.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I know; how many years ago?\u2014I walked out of one of my best friend\u2019s house after he found his wife in an affair.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and she was one of <em>my<\/em> best friends.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; they are\/John\u2019s still in a small group with me, and Betsy with Ann. God did save that marriage; He did. But the betrayal, and the hurt, and the journey\u2014He did not save it in a day or a month.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> A journey to healing takes quite awhile.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019ve talked to people, who have been the betrayers\/who have violated the trust. Even when they\u2019re repentant and contrite, and they want to rebuild, there\u2019s still this question of: \u201cHow long does it take to rebuild?\u201d I said, \u201cThere\u2019s no answer to that. It takes as long as it takes\u201d; but it takes consistent behavior over time.\n\nWe\u2019re getting ahead of ourselves. We\u2019ve got a friend, who\u2019s back with us on <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em> Phil Waldrep joins us. Phil, welcome back.\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> Well, thank you! I am <em>so<\/em> excited to be back here.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I have to tell you\u2014I first heard a message from Phil\u2014we were just talking about this\u2014I don\u2019t know how many years ago\u2014a message that you did on prodigals that is probably the message that I\u2019ve referred people to\u2014certainly, on that subject\u2014there\u2019s no message that I\u2019ve said, \u201cYou\u2019ve got to listen to this.\u201d In fact, it\u2019s on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com; you can go listen to it.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You\u2019ve got <em>me<\/em> wanting to listen to it.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m going to go read the book, <em>Reaching Your Prodigal.<\/em>\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It\u2019s great content on prodigals. You\u2019ve been here before; we\u2019ve interviewed you on this.\n\nYou\u2019ve just written a book on this subject of betrayal and trust. It\u2019s called <em>Beyond Betrayal: Overcome Past Hurts and Begin to Trust Again<\/em>. This came out of an experience, not in your marriage or family, but in a business situation\/a ministry situation, where you experienced significant betrayal.\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> It did; I remember the day well. You\u2019re going through life, and everything\u2019s wonderful. Our ministry was clicking along. I can remember walking out of the house and thinking, \u201cLord, You\u2019ve blessed us so much. It just <em>cannot<\/em> get better than this.\u201d I told my secretary that day, \u201cThis is a catch-up day.\u201d By that I mean, \u201cThis is a day I don\u2019t want any appointments; I don\u2019t want to talk to anybody. I just want to catch up on everything,\u201d\u2014which to her meant\u2014\u201cBe my guardian; it really needs to be an important phone call.\u201d\n\nSo when she buzzed my office and she said, \u201cUhhhh, there are two men here to talk to you, and they need to see you,\u201d I immediately said, \u201cI don\u2019t have time.\u201d She said, \u201cNo, I think you need to talk to these two men.\u201d After trying to put it off, I said, \u201cAre these ministry friends?\u201d She\u2019s like, \u201cNo; I don\u2019t know who they are, but they have badges.\u201d I [said], \u201cOkay; this is a joke; right?\u201d She\u2019s like, \u201cNo; and they\u2019re wearing suits.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Wow!\n\n<strong>Phil: <\/strong>I walked out; and these two men said, \u201cWe need to talk to you\u201d; walked into my office. I remember the first thing that caught my attention was <em>they<\/em> closed the door; I didn\u2019t close the door.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Really?\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> Yes; I sat down. They identified themselves from two different federal agencies and they said, \u201cWe\u2019ve got to talk to you.\u201d When people come to your office like that, I\u2019m thinking, \u201cMaybe they\u2019re having personal problems.\u201d And I realized real quickly, \u201cNo; that is not why they\u2019re there.\u201d\n\nThey looked at me; and the first thing they did was, \u201cWe have to swear you to absolute secrecy.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, you know, ministry confidentiality.\u201d They said, \u201cNo, no, no. We don\u2019t mean <em>just<\/em> confidentiality. You need to understand what you\u2019re about to learn involves a major investigation. If you even <em>hint<\/em> to someone who we are or that we came by here, lives could be lost.\u201d [Gasps]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014including your wife; right?\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> \u2014including my <em>own<\/em> life. I\u2019m like, \u201cOkay; you have my attention. I really don\u2019t want to participate.\u201d Basically, they said, \u201cYou must.\u201d What they shared with me over the next few minutes was they were investigating a money laundering investigation. Just to be real quick\u2014for people who aren\u2019t familiar with that\u2014that\u2019s where people, who are involved in illegal activity; namely, drugs will take money, and they will mix it with good things. They mix it with legitimate businesses or organizations. This idea is: \u201cWhen they get on the trail of the money, they can\u2019t trace it.\u201d\n\nI\u2019m sitting there, and I said, \u201cOkay.\u201d They said, \u201cWe think that you have an employee who may be involved in this.\u201d I was just in shock; because I\u2019m like, \u201cWe have wonderful employees. They all love God; they\u2019re all involved in church.\u201d They said, \u201cWe need your help.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Were they thinking that this employee was running money through your ministry?\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> They, I think, at one point, did. By the time they came to see <em>me<\/em>, I think they had eliminated that; it involved, potentially, some family members.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And Phil, was this a friend of yours that they were referring to?\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> Oh, absolutely; somebody that I had known for years that had been involved in launching our ministry. The one person that I would have said\u2014I\u2019m an only child, so I don\u2019t have any brothers or sisters\u2014the one person I would have said was the closest thing to an earthly brother I\u2019ve ever had, so I immediately defended him: \u201cThat\u2019s illogical; it\u2019s not true.\u201d They said, \u201cWell, you can help us prove that it\u2019s untrue.\u201d\n\nI don\u2019t want to imply\/I was not, in any way, an informant or anything like that. They just needed to know some basic things. And there were some questions they needed regarding some future travel plans that I needed to help them with. I was willing to do that, but I couldn\u2019t tell my wife; I couldn\u2019t tell anyone else. In fact, when they left, they even gave me the cover: I was to tell [others] that they were trying to help someone at a nearby place\/near us, in Huntsville, Alabama, where NASA is. They were trying to get a higher clearance, and they were there talking to me about their clearance.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; because your secretary\u2019s going to come back to you and say, \u201cWho were those guys? What were they up to?\u201d\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> Yes, sure; absolutely.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Here you are in ministry, and you\u2019ve got a cover story.\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> \u2014which is a lie; right?\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I mean, you\u2019re in a tough spot. You\u2019re trying to work with the government. It was a tough place for you to be.\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> And this went on for three or four months.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Wow.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What were you feeling in the midst of this?\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> I was scared; because I think anytime someone draws a question mark over someone, you immediately wonder, \u201cIs there any truth to this?\u201d Fortunately, three months later, I met with them under some very unusual circumstances\u2014much of that I still can\u2019t tell; they have their creative ways of communicating with you\u2014because they knew someone might be watching <em>me<\/em>, which is a scary thought. I had to tell my wife, \u201cThis is one time you have to trust me; there\u2019s something going on.\u201d Looking back, it\u2019s almost like a movie.\n\nThree months later, one of the gentlemen came to see me; and he said, \u201cI come to bring you good news and bad news. The good news is\u2014your employee\u2019s not involved. I think it\u2019s important to know he was not involved in <em>any<\/em> illegal activity, nor was anyone in his family involved; they\u2019re completely clear. Thank you for your help.\u201d I said, \u201cI\u2019m so glad; it\u2019s exactly what I expected.\u201d\n\nI remember as he was leaving, he turned around, \u201cBut as a fellow believer, I need to tell you: you have an employee who is not what you think he is\u2014nothing illegal\u2014but he is not what you think he is.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s a bomb drop, right there.\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> It is because he wasn\u2019t able to tell me what he knew for several reasons, but he told me where to go look. When I went to look at phone records\u2014this is in the days when we didn\u2019t have cell phones; you had to have a long-distance carrier and so on\u2014the bills. I began to realize he was having four-, five-, six-hour long-distance conversations with people. There was no reason for that at three in the morning.\n\nWhen I began to investigate, and I called, I realized he had a very serious issue in his life. I gathered all the proof because, you know, when someone\u2019s betraying you, you don\u2019t want to initially admit it. Admitting a betrayal means I have got to deal with it. A lot of times, when there\u2019s someone\u2014you know, you see all the signs of someone maybe being unfaithful in marriage\u2014you kind of turn your head because: \u201cIf it\u2019s true, I have to deal with it,\u201d\u2014if it\u2019s my friend, if it\u2019s my spouse, or whoever.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>You want to believe the best, maybe even put your head in the sand; right?\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> Sure; because you don\u2019t want to deal with the <em>pain<\/em>. When it became very obvious, my initial response was\u2014I sat down\/confronted him; and he was very broken\/very repentant: \u201cI\u2019ve got an issue. I need help.\u201d At that point, I\u2019m like, \u201cGreat; we\u2019ll work through this. I\u2019ll get you counseling.\u201d And we did.\n\nThen, a few months later, I learned he was missing counseling appointments; there was something always coming up. I found, through his wife, that he had returned to the behavior. Then, I had to have the hard conversation and say, \u201cYou can\u2019t be involved in ministry here.\u201d He chose to resign. I\u2019m glad he did, because that probably made it a little easier for me.\n\nBut then, there was a bit of a campaign to try to deny what was true, and trying to deal with his wife, and going through that betrayal. But for me, it was the pain of: \u201cHow could I trust someone?\u201d Any time there\u2019s a betrayal\u2014you\u2019ve got an unfaithful spouse?\u2014the first thing that happens is you think: \u201cHow could <em>I<\/em> be so stupid? Why didn\u2019t <em>I<\/em> see the signs?\u201d Suddenly, your precious couldn\u2019t-get-better-than-this world is <em>shattered<\/em>. And when your world is shattered, now you have all of these broken pieces. You don\u2019t know who to trust; because: \u201cWait a minute. If I can\u2019t trust <em>him<\/em>, can I trust the other people in my ministry? If I can\u2019t trust <em>him<\/em>, can I trust the people at church?\u201d All of a sudden, you don\u2019t trust anybody.\n\nThat\u2019s where I found my place. I have to tell you\u2014it took me nearly 20 years to really get to a place, not of forgiving, but where I could say my heart is healed from that experience.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Wow.\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> It puts a question mark on every relationship you have; and all of a sudden, people are guilty until they prove their innocence. That affects every relationship you have.\n\nThat\u2019s where I was; so I sat down and started\u2014through my own experience, and through Scripture, and through friends\u2014to learn: \u201cYou know what? You can get beyond betrayal. You can trust again. The good news is\u2014the sun shines again, and life can be good again.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> But you\u2019re saying 20 years!!\u2014\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> Twenty years.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014the sun shines again.\n\nI\u2019m thinking of somebody\/thinking, \u201cOkay; this is a really good friend for <em>you<\/em>. If this is my <em>spouse<\/em>, is it 30 years?\u201440 years?\u201d I know every journey\u2019s different, but <em>20 years<\/em>\u2014it\u2019s a long time.\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> I do believe this. I think, in a marriage situation in particular, a lot of it depends on the betrayer: if the betrayer is truly repentant\/truly broken and is willing to be an open book.\n\nMany times, when someone is the betrayer, the first thing they say, especially in a marriage, is, \u201cYou just need to trust me and get over it.\u201d I look at people and say, \u201cThat\u2019s easy for you to say; you were the betrayer.\u201d\n\nFor <em>me<\/em>, I kept trying to do the big Christian thing; I kept trying to say, \u201cI\u2019ve forgiven him. I\u2019m over it. I <em>said<\/em> I have forgiven him, and I\u2019m <em>over<\/em> it.\u201d Well, I wasn\u2019t over it; and in reality, I really hadn\u2019t forgiven him. There were a lot of financial ramifications. When something is <em>shattered<\/em>, it\u2019s often the innocent that has to pick up the pieces. For me, I kept picking up those pieces. I was so angry, because I wanted <em>him<\/em> to be repentant; I wanted <em>him<\/em> to acknowledge it.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Do I remember this right? When you went to him the first time and laid out the evidence, he <em>seemed<\/em> to repent\u2014he confessed; he acknowledged. You thought, like we all do, we want redemption; we want somebody to be healed from that.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014and you want to give grace.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. You thought, \u201cOh, this is good,\u201d and felt like, for a while, maybe the corner had been turned, only to find that that was false repentance. There\u2019s a difference between worldly sorrow: \u201cI was caught,\u201d \u201cI was wrong,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m sorry,\u201d\u2014and godly sorrow, where you see the fruit of repentance. You saw worldly sorrow from your friend and co-worker, but he was still harboring the behaviors.\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> Looking back, I think he feared the consequences: \u201cI\u2019ve been caught.\u201d Many times, those who have been involved in ministry at the local jail, will tell you that the person who\u2019s a career criminal\/ who\u2019s going to be in there a long time is much easier to deal with than the guy, who got brought in last night for DUI. The guy with DUI: \u201cI\u2019m going to repent. Man, go talk to my wife.\u201d They\u2019re worried more about the consequences.\n\nLooking back, I think he was trying to control the consequences of his behavior rather than being genuinely repentant. When you are genuinely repentant, you are open to accountability; you\u2019re open to say, \u201cWhatever it takes, I\u2019m willing; I\u2019m ready; and I\u2019m able.\u201d For me, I did not receive that from him; so I had to deal with it in more serious ways. But the big thing was\u2014I kept trying to heal him when I needed to heal <em>myself<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What do you mean by that?\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> Meaning\u2014we always want the betrayer to change: \u201c<em>You<\/em> need to do this, and this, and this.\u201d I had to realize, before I could deal with that, God had to bring a healing in my own heart\u2014that I had to walk through what it meant to forgive; because much of what I had heard about forgiveness, I found not to be the case.\n\n\u201cWhat does forgiveness look like?\u201d and \u201cThen, how do I rebuild my world?\u201d One of the things that really <em>bothered<\/em> me was he had shattered my dream and my vision. You know, you\u2019re going through life\/you know, everybody lives\u2014if you\u2019re in ministry, you have this vision of: \u201cThis is what we\u2019re going to do.\u201d I see it in church life; and all of a sudden, a staff member that everyone loves has been unfaithful, or you have a child abuse situation in the church\u2014make out whatever list you want. When people go through those experiences, it sets you back; it sets a church back. It sets you back personally; it sets you back financially. When your world is shattered and you\u2019re set back, then you get kind of bitter; because you\u2019ve got to pick up all these pieces, and sometimes you don\u2019t get to fulfill the vision.\n\nI know people who have gone through an unfaithful spouse, and the spouse did <em>not<\/em> want reconciliation. Now, all of a sudden, you\u2019re a single mom\/you\u2019re a single dad. This perfect world of: \u201cHappy mom and dad, and two great kids, and the condo on the beach,\u201d is suddenly shattered. Your security is gone.\n\nFor me, I knew that was gone. But first, before I could deal with that, I had to deal with the healing in my own heart.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> When did you realize you needed to deal with your own healing? Initially, reading your book, it wasn\u2019t the next week.\n\nIn my own life, a few years ago, a guy betrayed me on our staff at our church. I was the guy like, \u201cOkay; I\u2019ve dealt with it. I confronted him. He lied to me\u2026\u201d Months later, I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m good. I think I\u2019m good.\u201d Then, his name came up in a conversation, and I just exploded. My son looked at me and said, \u201cDude! What was that?\u201d I said, \u201cWhoa! I haven\u2019t healed. I haven\u2019t even started the process!\u201d It was like a warning light on the dashboard of my soul, going, \u201cDude, you\u2019ve got to look at this.\u201d When did that happen for you?\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> You know, it\u2019s interesting\u2014what you said\u2014two things right there I can identify with. Number one, it was my <em>daughter<\/em> who said to me, \u201cDad, you need to deal with this.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Do you think that\u2019s typical?\u2014that other people see it in us before we even realize it?\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> Oh, definitely. Here\u2019s one of the ways you can always tell: if I\u2019m at a dinner conversation, and someone brings up a betrayal in their life\u2014we don\u2019t have to be discussing the book\u2014but they just bring it up. Say something nice about the betrayer:\n\n\u201cMy husband\u2014he was unfaithful to me, and I just can\u2019t believe he did that to me.\u201d\n\nYou say, \u201cHe was one of the best singers I\u2019ve ever heard,\u201d\u2014say something positive about the betrayer\u2014<em>watch<\/em> their reaction. If they have to go into character assassination, they haven\u2019t dealt with it.\n\nWhen you get to the point, where you\u2019ve really forgiven someone\u2014you may not trust them; that\u2019s totally different\u2014but forgiveness means, \u201cI really do want God\u2019s best for you.\u201d When God starts blessing the person who betrayed you, and you can legitimately rejoice in it, <em>now<\/em> you\u2019ve worked through it. But you don\u2019t get there in a week; you don\u2019t get there in a year. For me, it took 20 years; I know people\u2014it\u2019s taken longer. I think it\u2019s when you can actually come to the place\u2014doesn\u2019t mean hire them again; doesn\u2019t mean you have to remarry them\u2014I mean, with all of those issues\u2014but you come to that place, where if God chooses to bless them, I\u2019m not going to be angry at God.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You map out a process that you went through and that others can go through in your book, <em>Beyond Betrayal<\/em>. We want to take our listeners into that process this week. I am curious how you thought of God in the midst of this. He could have alerted you, protected you, warned you; and yet, He allowed this to be part of the story that He took you on. How\u2019d you make sense of that?\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> You know, I have to tell you, that was one of the hardest things that I went through because, for me: \u201cGod, why did You have to use someone from the federal government to make me aware of what was going on?\u201d The Lord said, \u201cI <em>did<\/em> use them to make you aware.\u201d I think part of it was God\u2019s timing. To understand that, in the midst of my pain, God wanted to teach me something. God certainly was not behind his behavior\u2014I don\u2019t want to imply that\u2014but God wanted to teach me something.\n\nI really believe that people, who have been through deep betrayal, have an opportunity to walk through something that our Savior walked through\u2014that until you are betrayed, you\u2019ll never understand. It helps you to love people and to be Christ-like. I really did\/I was angry at God\u2014not publicly\u2014because we learn the certain [words] we\u2019re supposed to say. But I was probably angry at God: \u201cGod, how could You give me a vision?\u2014he\u2019d be a part of it and then it shattered.\u201d\n\nI went through that, and what I found is that there was nothing I told God that He didn\u2019t already know. I was very honest. To come through that\u2014and going back, and learning, and spending time understanding from Genesis to the Revelation\u2014I came to the point, with my personal walk with the Lord, the Lord says, \u201cNow, I can teach you something through this.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019m guessing just about every listener, as we\u2019ve had this conversation, has had a name or names that have come to mind\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Absolutely.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014because it\u2019s the reality of the human experience and living in a fallen world. Betrayal is a part of relationships. The potential is always there; the reality is occasionally there. When it happens, it\u2019s devastating, whether it\u2019s in a marriage and family, or a work relationship, or an old friend\u2014whatever it is. That loss of trust and betrayal is so wounding to our soul.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It is <em>deep<\/em>. That\u2019s why names are coming to people\u2019s minds\/that came to mine. It hurts. It isn\u2019t superficial; it\u2019s down in the soul. I was thinking, Bob, when you were saying that: \u201cHow many people thought of my name?\u2014that I\u2019ve hurt them?\u201d We always think, \u201cI haven\u2019t hurt anybody like I\u2019ve been hurt.\u201d Yet, there are probably people that have our names coming up that have had to forgive us.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Why did you have to say <em>that<\/em>? [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m not talking about <em>you<\/em>!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It\u2019s true, though. When you said that, oh, you\u2019re absolutely right; I have hurt people\u2014which makes me go to the next step: \u201cDo I need to go to someone and ask for forgiveness?\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Phil\u2019s book, as I said, gives us a strategy\/a path to walk on\u2014if we have been betrayed\/if trust has been violated\u2014and we find ourselves in that place of pain. We want to make your book available this week to any of our listeners who may be in this spot themselves, or you may know someone who has been betrayed recently. Get a copy of Phil\u2019s book, <em>Beyond Betrayal: Overcome Past Hurts and Begin to Trust Again.<\/em> It\u2019s our gift to you this week when you make a donation to support the ongoing work of <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em>\n\nOur mission, here, at FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> is to effectively develop godly marriages and families. We believe godly marriages and families can change the world, one home at a time. When you support this ministry, you help us reach more people, more often, with the kind of practical biblical help and hope you\u2019ve heard today.\n\nYou can donate easily, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate: 1-800-FL-TODAY is our number. When you invest in the work of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>,be sure to request your copy of the book, <em>Beyond Betrayal: Overcome Past Hurts and Begin to Trust Again<\/em>, by Phil Waldrep. We\u2019ll send it out to you, along with our thanks for your support of the ministry. Again, you can donate at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate.\n\nTomorrow, we\u2019re going to continue to talk about what it looks like to forgive and what it looks like to trust again after betrayal, whether it\u2019s in a marriage relationship or any kind of betrayal you\u2019ve experienced. Phil Waldrep will join us again tomorrow. I hope you can join us as well.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. 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Phil Waldrep discusses the process of healing from betrayal. Whether you've been betrayed by a close friend or family member, Waldrep shares a trusted path to recovery.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-09-14.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>What do we do when we learn that someone we\u2019ve trusted has been untrustworthy? Phil Waldrep experienced that with a ministry associate, and it hit him hard.\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> The first thing that happens is you think, \u201cHow can <em>I<\/em> be so stupid? Why didn\u2019t <em>I<\/em> see the signs?\u201d Suddenly, your precious couldn\u2019t-get-better-than-this world is <em>shattered<\/em>. And when your world is shattered, now you have all of these broken pieces. You don\u2019t know who to trust; because: \u201cWait a minute; if I can\u2019t trust <em>him<\/em>, can I trust the other people in my ministry? If I can\u2019t trust <em>him<\/em>, can I trust the people at church?\u201d All of a sudden, you don\u2019t trust anybody.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, September 14<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. Betrayal can rock our world, so how do we respond? How do we recover? Phil Waldrep joins us today to help us think, biblically, about betrayal. Stay with us.\n\nWelcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. You guys know, from working with couples\u2014the point where you start to look and go, \u201cCan this relationship be rescued when trust has been violated in a significant way?\u201d\u2014the rebuilding of trust is one of the hardest things to do in a marriage relationship and family relationships. When there\u2019s been betrayal, that leads to that breaking of trust. You\u2019ve got hard work ahead of you to get to a relationship that can thrive.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I know; how many years ago?\u2014I walked out of one of my best friend\u2019s house after he found his wife in an affair.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and she was one of <em>my<\/em> best friends.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; they are\/John\u2019s still in a small group with me, and Betsy with Ann. God did save that marriage; He did. But the betrayal, and the hurt, and the journey\u2014He did not save it in a day or a month.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> A journey to healing takes quite awhile.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019ve talked to people, who have been the betrayers\/who have violated the trust. Even when they\u2019re repentant and contrite, and they want to rebuild, there\u2019s still this question of: \u201cHow long does it take to rebuild?\u201d I said, \u201cThere\u2019s no answer to that. It takes as long as it takes\u201d; but it takes consistent behavior over time.\n\nWe\u2019re getting ahead of ourselves. We\u2019ve got a friend, who\u2019s back with us on <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em> Phil Waldrep joins us. Phil, welcome back.\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> Well, thank you! I am <em>so<\/em> excited to be back here.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I have to tell you\u2014I first heard a message from Phil\u2014we were just talking about this\u2014I don\u2019t know how many years ago\u2014a message that you did on prodigals that is probably the message that I\u2019ve referred people to\u2014certainly, on that subject\u2014there\u2019s no message that I\u2019ve said, \u201cYou\u2019ve got to listen to this.\u201d In fact, it\u2019s on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com; you can go listen to it.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You\u2019ve got <em>me<\/em> wanting to listen to it.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m going to go read the book, <em>Reaching Your Prodigal.<\/em>\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It\u2019s great content on prodigals. You\u2019ve been here before; we\u2019ve interviewed you on this.\n\nYou\u2019ve just written a book on this subject of betrayal and trust. It\u2019s called <em>Beyond Betrayal: Overcome Past Hurts and Begin to Trust Again<\/em>. This came out of an experience, not in your marriage or family, but in a business situation\/a ministry situation, where you experienced significant betrayal.\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> It did; I remember the day well. You\u2019re going through life, and everything\u2019s wonderful. Our ministry was clicking along. I can remember walking out of the house and thinking, \u201cLord, You\u2019ve blessed us so much. It just <em>cannot<\/em> get better than this.\u201d I told my secretary that day, \u201cThis is a catch-up day.\u201d By that I mean, \u201cThis is a day I don\u2019t want any appointments; I don\u2019t want to talk to anybody. I just want to catch up on everything,\u201d\u2014which to her meant\u2014\u201cBe my guardian; it really needs to be an important phone call.\u201d\n\nSo when she buzzed my office and she said, \u201cUhhhh, there are two men here to talk to you, and they need to see you,\u201d I immediately said, \u201cI don\u2019t have time.\u201d She said, \u201cNo, I think you need to talk to these two men.\u201d After trying to put it off, I said, \u201cAre these ministry friends?\u201d She\u2019s like, \u201cNo; I don\u2019t know who they are, but they have badges.\u201d I [said], \u201cOkay; this is a joke; right?\u201d She\u2019s like, \u201cNo; and they\u2019re wearing suits.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Wow!\n\n<strong>Phil: <\/strong>I walked out; and these two men said, \u201cWe need to talk to you\u201d; walked into my office. I remember the first thing that caught my attention was <em>they<\/em> closed the door; I didn\u2019t close the door.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Really?\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> Yes; I sat down. They identified themselves from two different federal agencies and they said, \u201cWe\u2019ve got to talk to you.\u201d When people come to your office like that, I\u2019m thinking, \u201cMaybe they\u2019re having personal problems.\u201d And I realized real quickly, \u201cNo; that is not why they\u2019re there.\u201d\n\nThey looked at me; and the first thing they did was, \u201cWe have to swear you to absolute secrecy.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, you know, ministry confidentiality.\u201d They said, \u201cNo, no, no. We don\u2019t mean <em>just<\/em> confidentiality. You need to understand what you\u2019re about to learn involves a major investigation. If you even <em>hint<\/em> to someone who we are or that we came by here, lives could be lost.\u201d [Gasps]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014including your wife; right?\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> \u2014including my <em>own<\/em> life. I\u2019m like, \u201cOkay; you have my attention. I really don\u2019t want to participate.\u201d Basically, they said, \u201cYou must.\u201d What they shared with me over the next few minutes was they were investigating a money laundering investigation. Just to be real quick\u2014for people who aren\u2019t familiar with that\u2014that\u2019s where people, who are involved in illegal activity; namely, drugs will take money, and they will mix it with good things. They mix it with legitimate businesses or organizations. This idea is: \u201cWhen they get on the trail of the money, they can\u2019t trace it.\u201d\n\nI\u2019m sitting there, and I said, \u201cOkay.\u201d They said, \u201cWe think that you have an employee who may be involved in this.\u201d I was just in shock; because I\u2019m like, \u201cWe have wonderful employees. They all love God; they\u2019re all involved in church.\u201d They said, \u201cWe need your help.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Were they thinking that this employee was running money through your ministry?\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> They, I think, at one point, did. By the time they came to see <em>me<\/em>, I think they had eliminated that; it involved, potentially, some family members.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And Phil, was this a friend of yours that they were referring to?\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> Oh, absolutely; somebody that I had known for years that had been involved in launching our ministry. The one person that I would have said\u2014I\u2019m an only child, so I don\u2019t have any brothers or sisters\u2014the one person I would have said was the closest thing to an earthly brother I\u2019ve ever had, so I immediately defended him: \u201cThat\u2019s illogical; it\u2019s not true.\u201d They said, \u201cWell, you can help us prove that it\u2019s untrue.\u201d\n\nI don\u2019t want to imply\/I was not, in any way, an informant or anything like that. They just needed to know some basic things. And there were some questions they needed regarding some future travel plans that I needed to help them with. I was willing to do that, but I couldn\u2019t tell my wife; I couldn\u2019t tell anyone else. In fact, when they left, they even gave me the cover: I was to tell [others] that they were trying to help someone at a nearby place\/near us, in Huntsville, Alabama, where NASA is. They were trying to get a higher clearance, and they were there talking to me about their clearance.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; because your secretary\u2019s going to come back to you and say, \u201cWho were those guys? What were they up to?\u201d\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> Yes, sure; absolutely.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Here you are in ministry, and you\u2019ve got a cover story.\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> \u2014which is a lie; right?\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I mean, you\u2019re in a tough spot. You\u2019re trying to work with the government. It was a tough place for you to be.\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> And this went on for three or four months.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Wow.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What were you feeling in the midst of this?\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> I was scared; because I think anytime someone draws a question mark over someone, you immediately wonder, \u201cIs there any truth to this?\u201d Fortunately, three months later, I met with them under some very unusual circumstances\u2014much of that I still can\u2019t tell; they have their creative ways of communicating with you\u2014because they knew someone might be watching <em>me<\/em>, which is a scary thought. I had to tell my wife, \u201cThis is one time you have to trust me; there\u2019s something going on.\u201d Looking back, it\u2019s almost like a movie.\n\nThree months later, one of the gentlemen came to see me; and he said, \u201cI come to bring you good news and bad news. The good news is\u2014your employee\u2019s not involved. I think it\u2019s important to know he was not involved in <em>any<\/em> illegal activity, nor was anyone in his family involved; they\u2019re completely clear. Thank you for your help.\u201d I said, \u201cI\u2019m so glad; it\u2019s exactly what I expected.\u201d\n\nI remember as he was leaving, he turned around, \u201cBut as a fellow believer, I need to tell you: you have an employee who is not what you think he is\u2014nothing illegal\u2014but he is not what you think he is.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s a bomb drop, right there.\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> It is because he wasn\u2019t able to tell me what he knew for several reasons, but he told me where to go look. When I went to look at phone records\u2014this is in the days when we didn\u2019t have cell phones; you had to have a long-distance carrier and so on\u2014the bills. I began to realize he was having four-, five-, six-hour long-distance conversations with people. There was no reason for that at three in the morning.\n\nWhen I began to investigate, and I called, I realized he had a very serious issue in his life. I gathered all the proof because, you know, when someone\u2019s betraying you, you don\u2019t want to initially admit it. Admitting a betrayal means I have got to deal with it. A lot of times, when there\u2019s someone\u2014you know, you see all the signs of someone maybe being unfaithful in marriage\u2014you kind of turn your head because: \u201cIf it\u2019s true, I have to deal with it,\u201d\u2014if it\u2019s my friend, if it\u2019s my spouse, or whoever.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>You want to believe the best, maybe even put your head in the sand; right?\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> Sure; because you don\u2019t want to deal with the <em>pain<\/em>. When it became very obvious, my initial response was\u2014I sat down\/confronted him; and he was very broken\/very repentant: \u201cI\u2019ve got an issue. I need help.\u201d At that point, I\u2019m like, \u201cGreat; we\u2019ll work through this. I\u2019ll get you counseling.\u201d And we did.\n\nThen, a few months later, I learned he was missing counseling appointments; there was something always coming up. I found, through his wife, that he had returned to the behavior. Then, I had to have the hard conversation and say, \u201cYou can\u2019t be involved in ministry here.\u201d He chose to resign. I\u2019m glad he did, because that probably made it a little easier for me.\n\nBut then, there was a bit of a campaign to try to deny what was true, and trying to deal with his wife, and going through that betrayal. But for me, it was the pain of: \u201cHow could I trust someone?\u201d Any time there\u2019s a betrayal\u2014you\u2019ve got an unfaithful spouse?\u2014the first thing that happens is you think: \u201cHow could <em>I<\/em> be so stupid? Why didn\u2019t <em>I<\/em> see the signs?\u201d Suddenly, your precious couldn\u2019t-get-better-than-this world is <em>shattered<\/em>. And when your world is shattered, now you have all of these broken pieces. You don\u2019t know who to trust; because: \u201cWait a minute. If I can\u2019t trust <em>him<\/em>, can I trust the other people in my ministry? If I can\u2019t trust <em>him<\/em>, can I trust the people at church?\u201d All of a sudden, you don\u2019t trust anybody.\n\nThat\u2019s where I found my place. I have to tell you\u2014it took me nearly 20 years to really get to a place, not of forgiving, but where I could say my heart is healed from that experience.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Wow.\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> It puts a question mark on every relationship you have; and all of a sudden, people are guilty until they prove their innocence. That affects every relationship you have.\n\nThat\u2019s where I was; so I sat down and started\u2014through my own experience, and through Scripture, and through friends\u2014to learn: \u201cYou know what? You can get beyond betrayal. You can trust again. The good news is\u2014the sun shines again, and life can be good again.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> But you\u2019re saying 20 years!!\u2014\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> Twenty years.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014the sun shines again.\n\nI\u2019m thinking of somebody\/thinking, \u201cOkay; this is a really good friend for <em>you<\/em>. If this is my <em>spouse<\/em>, is it 30 years?\u201440 years?\u201d I know every journey\u2019s different, but <em>20 years<\/em>\u2014it\u2019s a long time.\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> I do believe this. I think, in a marriage situation in particular, a lot of it depends on the betrayer: if the betrayer is truly repentant\/truly broken and is willing to be an open book.\n\nMany times, when someone is the betrayer, the first thing they say, especially in a marriage, is, \u201cYou just need to trust me and get over it.\u201d I look at people and say, \u201cThat\u2019s easy for you to say; you were the betrayer.\u201d\n\nFor <em>me<\/em>, I kept trying to do the big Christian thing; I kept trying to say, \u201cI\u2019ve forgiven him. I\u2019m over it. I <em>said<\/em> I have forgiven him, and I\u2019m <em>over<\/em> it.\u201d Well, I wasn\u2019t over it; and in reality, I really hadn\u2019t forgiven him. There were a lot of financial ramifications. When something is <em>shattered<\/em>, it\u2019s often the innocent that has to pick up the pieces. For me, I kept picking up those pieces. I was so angry, because I wanted <em>him<\/em> to be repentant; I wanted <em>him<\/em> to acknowledge it.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Do I remember this right? When you went to him the first time and laid out the evidence, he <em>seemed<\/em> to repent\u2014he confessed; he acknowledged. You thought, like we all do, we want redemption; we want somebody to be healed from that.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014and you want to give grace.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. You thought, \u201cOh, this is good,\u201d and felt like, for a while, maybe the corner had been turned, only to find that that was false repentance. There\u2019s a difference between worldly sorrow: \u201cI was caught,\u201d \u201cI was wrong,\u201d \u201cI\u2019m sorry,\u201d\u2014and godly sorrow, where you see the fruit of repentance. You saw worldly sorrow from your friend and co-worker, but he was still harboring the behaviors.\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> Looking back, I think he feared the consequences: \u201cI\u2019ve been caught.\u201d Many times, those who have been involved in ministry at the local jail, will tell you that the person who\u2019s a career criminal\/ who\u2019s going to be in there a long time is much easier to deal with than the guy, who got brought in last night for DUI. The guy with DUI: \u201cI\u2019m going to repent. Man, go talk to my wife.\u201d They\u2019re worried more about the consequences.\n\nLooking back, I think he was trying to control the consequences of his behavior rather than being genuinely repentant. When you are genuinely repentant, you are open to accountability; you\u2019re open to say, \u201cWhatever it takes, I\u2019m willing; I\u2019m ready; and I\u2019m able.\u201d For me, I did not receive that from him; so I had to deal with it in more serious ways. But the big thing was\u2014I kept trying to heal him when I needed to heal <em>myself<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What do you mean by that?\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> Meaning\u2014we always want the betrayer to change: \u201c<em>You<\/em> need to do this, and this, and this.\u201d I had to realize, before I could deal with that, God had to bring a healing in my own heart\u2014that I had to walk through what it meant to forgive; because much of what I had heard about forgiveness, I found not to be the case.\n\n\u201cWhat does forgiveness look like?\u201d and \u201cThen, how do I rebuild my world?\u201d One of the things that really <em>bothered<\/em> me was he had shattered my dream and my vision. You know, you\u2019re going through life\/you know, everybody lives\u2014if you\u2019re in ministry, you have this vision of: \u201cThis is what we\u2019re going to do.\u201d I see it in church life; and all of a sudden, a staff member that everyone loves has been unfaithful, or you have a child abuse situation in the church\u2014make out whatever list you want. When people go through those experiences, it sets you back; it sets a church back. It sets you back personally; it sets you back financially. When your world is shattered and you\u2019re set back, then you get kind of bitter; because you\u2019ve got to pick up all these pieces, and sometimes you don\u2019t get to fulfill the vision.\n\nI know people who have gone through an unfaithful spouse, and the spouse did <em>not<\/em> want reconciliation. Now, all of a sudden, you\u2019re a single mom\/you\u2019re a single dad. This perfect world of: \u201cHappy mom and dad, and two great kids, and the condo on the beach,\u201d is suddenly shattered. Your security is gone.\n\nFor me, I knew that was gone. But first, before I could deal with that, I had to deal with the healing in my own heart.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> When did you realize you needed to deal with your own healing? Initially, reading your book, it wasn\u2019t the next week.\n\nIn my own life, a few years ago, a guy betrayed me on our staff at our church. I was the guy like, \u201cOkay; I\u2019ve dealt with it. I confronted him. He lied to me\u2026\u201d Months later, I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m good. I think I\u2019m good.\u201d Then, his name came up in a conversation, and I just exploded. My son looked at me and said, \u201cDude! What was that?\u201d I said, \u201cWhoa! I haven\u2019t healed. I haven\u2019t even started the process!\u201d It was like a warning light on the dashboard of my soul, going, \u201cDude, you\u2019ve got to look at this.\u201d When did that happen for you?\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> You know, it\u2019s interesting\u2014what you said\u2014two things right there I can identify with. Number one, it was my <em>daughter<\/em> who said to me, \u201cDad, you need to deal with this.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Do you think that\u2019s typical?\u2014that other people see it in us before we even realize it?\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> Oh, definitely. Here\u2019s one of the ways you can always tell: if I\u2019m at a dinner conversation, and someone brings up a betrayal in their life\u2014we don\u2019t have to be discussing the book\u2014but they just bring it up. Say something nice about the betrayer:\n\n\u201cMy husband\u2014he was unfaithful to me, and I just can\u2019t believe he did that to me.\u201d\n\nYou say, \u201cHe was one of the best singers I\u2019ve ever heard,\u201d\u2014say something positive about the betrayer\u2014<em>watch<\/em> their reaction. If they have to go into character assassination, they haven\u2019t dealt with it.\n\nWhen you get to the point, where you\u2019ve really forgiven someone\u2014you may not trust them; that\u2019s totally different\u2014but forgiveness means, \u201cI really do want God\u2019s best for you.\u201d When God starts blessing the person who betrayed you, and you can legitimately rejoice in it, <em>now<\/em> you\u2019ve worked through it. But you don\u2019t get there in a week; you don\u2019t get there in a year. For me, it took 20 years; I know people\u2014it\u2019s taken longer. I think it\u2019s when you can actually come to the place\u2014doesn\u2019t mean hire them again; doesn\u2019t mean you have to remarry them\u2014I mean, with all of those issues\u2014but you come to that place, where if God chooses to bless them, I\u2019m not going to be angry at God.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You map out a process that you went through and that others can go through in your book, <em>Beyond Betrayal<\/em>. We want to take our listeners into that process this week. I am curious how you thought of God in the midst of this. He could have alerted you, protected you, warned you; and yet, He allowed this to be part of the story that He took you on. How\u2019d you make sense of that?\n\n<strong>Phil:<\/strong> You know, I have to tell you, that was one of the hardest things that I went through because, for me: \u201cGod, why did You have to use someone from the federal government to make me aware of what was going on?\u201d The Lord said, \u201cI <em>did<\/em> use them to make you aware.\u201d I think part of it was God\u2019s timing. To understand that, in the midst of my pain, God wanted to teach me something. God certainly was not behind his behavior\u2014I don\u2019t want to imply that\u2014but God wanted to teach me something.\n\nI really believe that people, who have been through deep betrayal, have an opportunity to walk through something that our Savior walked through\u2014that until you are betrayed, you\u2019ll never understand. It helps you to love people and to be Christ-like. I really did\/I was angry at God\u2014not publicly\u2014because we learn the certain [words] we\u2019re supposed to say. But I was probably angry at God: \u201cGod, how could You give me a vision?\u2014he\u2019d be a part of it and then it shattered.\u201d\n\nI went through that, and what I found is that there was nothing I told God that He didn\u2019t already know. I was very honest. To come through that\u2014and going back, and learning, and spending time understanding from Genesis to the Revelation\u2014I came to the point, with my personal walk with the Lord, the Lord says, \u201cNow, I can teach you something through this.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019m guessing just about every listener, as we\u2019ve had this conversation, has had a name or names that have come to mind\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Absolutely.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014because it\u2019s the reality of the human experience and living in a fallen world. Betrayal is a part of relationships. The potential is always there; the reality is occasionally there. When it happens, it\u2019s devastating, whether it\u2019s in a marriage and family, or a work relationship, or an old friend\u2014whatever it is. That loss of trust and betrayal is so wounding to our soul.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It is <em>deep<\/em>. That\u2019s why names are coming to people\u2019s minds\/that came to mine. It hurts. It isn\u2019t superficial; it\u2019s down in the soul. I was thinking, Bob, when you were saying that: \u201cHow many people thought of my name?\u2014that I\u2019ve hurt them?\u201d We always think, \u201cI haven\u2019t hurt anybody like I\u2019ve been hurt.\u201d Yet, there are probably people that have our names coming up that have had to forgive us.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Why did you have to say <em>that<\/em>? [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m not talking about <em>you<\/em>!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It\u2019s true, though. When you said that, oh, you\u2019re absolutely right; I have hurt people\u2014which makes me go to the next step: \u201cDo I need to go to someone and ask for forgiveness?\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Phil\u2019s book, as I said, gives us a strategy\/a path to walk on\u2014if we have been betrayed\/if trust has been violated\u2014and we find ourselves in that place of pain. We want to make your book available this week to any of our listeners who may be in this spot themselves, or you may know someone who has been betrayed recently. Get a copy of Phil\u2019s book, <em>Beyond Betrayal: Overcome Past Hurts and Begin to Trust Again.<\/em> It\u2019s our gift to you this week when you make a donation to support the ongoing work of <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em>\n\nOur mission, here, at FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> is to effectively develop godly marriages and families. We believe godly marriages and families can change the world, one home at a time. When you support this ministry, you help us reach more people, more often, with the kind of practical biblical help and hope you\u2019ve heard today.\n\nYou can donate easily, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate: 1-800-FL-TODAY is our number. When you invest in the work of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>,be sure to request your copy of the book, <em>Beyond Betrayal: Overcome Past Hurts and Begin to Trust Again<\/em>, by Phil Waldrep. We\u2019ll send it out to you, along with our thanks for your support of the ministry. Again, you can donate at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate.\n\nTomorrow, we\u2019re going to continue to talk about what it looks like to forgive and what it looks like to trust again after betrayal, whether it\u2019s in a marriage relationship or any kind of betrayal you\u2019ve experienced. Phil Waldrep will join us again tomorrow. I hope you can join us as well.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. 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