{"id":306356,"date":"2020-08-27T14:57:53","date_gmt":"2020-08-27T18:57:53","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/jesus-is-enough\/"},"modified":"2020-08-27T14:57:53","modified_gmt":"2020-08-27T18:57:53","slug":"jesus-is-enough","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/jesus-is-enough\/","title":{"rendered":"Jesus Is Enough"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>When Rachel Gilson became a Christian while reading &#8220;Mere Christianity&#8221; in college, she knew it would have drastic ramifications for her life as a same-sex attracted woman. Rachel talks with Dave and Ann Wilson, and co-host Bob Lepine, about the power of questions and listening in a culture that affirms homosexuality, and the importance of responding with God&#8217;s loving design for a sexuality that is not arbitrary or cruel.<br \/>\nShow Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tFind resources from this podcast at https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=95.<br \/>\n \tCheck out all that&#8217;s available on the FamilyLife Podcast Network.\u00a0 https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/<br \/>\n \tHave the FamilyLife Today\u00ae podcast and resources helped you?\u00a0 Consider becoming a Legacy Partner, a monthly supporter of FamilyLife.\u00a0https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/legacy<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Rachel Gilson talks about the importance of responding with God&#8217;s loving design for a sexuality that is not arbitrary or cruel, on FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-08-27.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:28:05","filesize":"25.72M","filesize_raw":"26967092","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2906,2805,2896],"tags":[4129],"podcast_series":[8386],"cwp_profile":[9644],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-306356","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-becoming-a-christian","category-gods-plan-for-marriage","category-lgbt","tag-homosexuality","podcast_series-born-again-this-way","cwp_profile-rachel-gilson","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/306356\/jesus-is-enough","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/306356\/jesus-is-enough","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"gqaVARHYbO\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/jesus-is-enough\/\">Jesus Is Enough<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/jesus-is-enough\/embed\/#?secret=gqaVARHYbO\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Jesus Is Enough&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"gqaVARHYbO\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-08-27.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-08-27.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Should Christians today embrace a new vision of marriage, a vision that includes same-sex couples? Rachel Gilson doesn\u2019t think so.\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> I think the arguments for an evangelical case for same-sex marriage have become extremely sophisticated. It means that we need to do a good job in our churches explaining God\u2019s positive vision for sexuality\u2014not just the verses which say, \u201cNo,\u201d to same-sex sex\u2014and they are there; and they say, \u201cNo,\u201d\u2014but also what God says, \u201cYes,\u201d to. When we understand His <em>design<\/em> for sexuality, it helps us see that what He says, \u201cNo,\u201d to is not arbitrary or cruel.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, August 27<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I\u2019m Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. Rachel Gilson has thought a lot about gender and sexuality and about marriage because of her own experience of being same-sex attracted. We\u2019ll talk with her today about how she\u2019s come to make biblical sense of all of this. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I have, sometimes, thought that it is a good thing\u2014at least, for me it was a good thing\u2014that I didn\u2019t understand exactly all I was signing up for when I became a Christian. [Laughter] Because if somebody had sat down and said, \u201cThis is what it\u2019s going to mean\u2026\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> If someone would have told me that you\u2019re going to marry a pastor and live in Detroit, Michigan, I would have run as far away from God as I could.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Not everybody that becomes a Christian is going marry a pastor and live in Detroit.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You were okay with being a missionary in Africa;\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; \u201cSend me there!\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014but a pastor\u2019s wife in Detroit: \u201cForget it.\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; exactly!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014not going to happen.\n\nYes, I think there is some truth to the fact that we often hear and think: \u201cWhat am I going to give up?\u201d \u201cThis is what I have to give up,\u201d \u201cThis is what is going to go away.\u201d Why does no one talk about, \u201cHere is what you get\u201d?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cOn the other side, there\u2019s an amazing thing\u201d; but anyway.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> But the disciples that followed Jesus\u2014they\u2019re thinking, \u201cWe\u2019re going to follow this guy.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, one of them said, \u201cWhere else\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cdo we go? You alone have the words of eternal life.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; that one of them was Peter there, Bob\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That\u2019s who it was.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014just in case you are wondering. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, we have got a friend joining us this week on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, Rachel Gilson, who kind of came to a point in her life, where she recognized, \u201cWhatever I have to do, I\u2019ve got to acknowledge that Jesus is who He claims to be.\u201d\n\nRachel, welcome back to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> It\u2019s my pleasure. You know, even as you\u2019re talking, I\u2019m thinking, \u201cMy favorite parable is that short one, where Jesus says, \u2018A man found a treasure in a field; and in his joy, he went and sold everything so he could buy that field.\u2019\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Joy.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You understand a little about selling everything. You\u2019ve written a book called <em>Born Again This Way<\/em>, which is your story of growing up. You\u2019ve already shared with us about same-sex attraction that you started to experience while you were in high school. You started acting on that. You went to college at Yale; this was still\u2014maybe, not <em>the<\/em> defining part of your life\u2014but a significant part of your life until you were reading <em>Mere Christianity<\/em> and had to close the book and say, \u201cOkay\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; what exactly did she say? \u201cFine! Okay.\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cI\u2019ll be a Christian.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cI\u2019ll surrender\u201d; yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \u201cFine; I\u2019ll be a Christian,\u201d\u2014that was your prayer of salvation. In that moment, were you thinking, \u201cThis is going to have implications for my sexuality\u201d?\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> I already knew. I knew because I had encountered those other interpretations of Scripture, which claimed that God supports monogamous same-sex relationships. I had considered them carefully, and I had found them <em>wanting<\/em>. By the time I got confronted with the fact that I was knee-deep in my sin\/over my head in my sin, there was no way out except the blood of Christ, I already knew that meant everything belongs to Him. I didn\u2019t know what that was going to mean experientially.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And I hear people today, who are finding the arguments\u2014that you found unconvincing\u2014they are finding them convincing. We\u2019ve seen a wave of people, who have kind of moved from an orthodox view of sexuality to a modern view of sexuality, and saying, \u201cThis is still in bounds.\u201d I remember reading an article, where a woman said, \u201cWhen I was experiencing same-sex attraction, I would have loved to have heard an argument that would have convinced me that this was okay; because it would have validated my desires.\u201d\n\nWhat are you saying as you engage with the people, who are drifting in the other direction, and saying, \u201cNo; there is a biblical case for this; in fact, it is stronger today than it\u2019s ever been\u201d?\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> We have to realize most people are attracted to what\u2019s been called the affirming view, which that would say, \u201cGod affirms same-sex relationships.\u201d Most people are attracted to the <em>affirming<\/em> view, because they genuinely care about the gay and lesbian people in their lives.\n\nThey have been taught by culture that the only way you can have a happy life is if you have a romantic partner\u2014right?\u2014and if you have a romantic and sexual partner who fulfills you. They say, \u201cWell, that\u2019s what would fulfill my gay and lesbian friend. God has promised that He wants us to be happy,\u201d\u2014which, hello, is that what He promised? But you know, we kind of take these different ingredients and blend them all in our Ninja<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> and then come out the other side and say, \u201cWell, God wants me to be happy, and this would make you happy; therefore, that\u2019s probably what God wants.\u201d\n\nWhen I am approaching someone, who holds the affirming view, I want to be asking a lot of questions; because usually, they\u2019ve seen some kind of pain in someone\u2019s life that they care about\u2014it\u2019s some type of promise that was unbiblical, or mistreatment by a church, or\u2014there are a dozen different things that can lead people to think, \u201cWell, maybe, this is what God really wants because it\u2019s what my friend or my family member really wants.\u201d\n\nI think that\u2019s why it is important to really gently bring each other back to the Scriptures; right? It says in Hebrews 3, \u201cWe need to exhort one another <em>every day<\/em> as long as it is called today so that none of us might be hardened by the\u201d\u2014what\u2019s the word?\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014deceitfulness.\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> \u2014\u201c<em>deceitfulness<\/em> of sin\u201d; right? We are suckers for sin; we are easily duped. So where are we going to go?\u2014we <em>have<\/em> to go to God\u2019s Word.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You were saying you would go to your friend and ask questions\u2014those questions being into their past?\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m asking that, for so many of us with friends, of just hearing their story.\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> I want to hear their story, and I also want to hear what they think of God\u2019s Word. Do they think of God\u2019s Word as something that actually carries life and authority, or do they think of it as something where they can cherry pick?\u2014right?\n\nWe actually have an incredibly biblically-illiterate society right now. If we take something that is this tender and this disputed, and we throw it to people who actually haven\u2019t been trained very well in how to read the Scriptures, outside of little verses that have been pulled out and stuck on coffee cups, well, no wonder we\u2019ve got people confused and easily taken advantage of by these very sophisticated arguments.\n\nI think the arguments for an evangelical case for same-sex marriage have become extremely sophisticated. It means that we need to do a good job in our churches, explaining God\u2019s positive vision for sexuality\u2014not just the verses which say, \u201cNo,\u201d to same-sex sex\u2014and they are there, and they say, \u201cNo,\u201d\u2014but also what God says, \u201cYes,\u201d to. When we understand His <em>design<\/em> for sexuality, it helps us see that what He says, \u201cNo,\u201d to isn\u2019t arbitrary or cruel; because I think that is the way a lot of people feel. They feel like what God says, \u201cNo,\u201d to is arbitrary and it\u2019s cruel; but His character is not arbitrary and cruel.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> As you gave your life to Christ in college\u2014obviously, we are talking, now, way down the road\u2014go back: \u201cDid you <em>immediately<\/em> understand God\u2019s heart regarding your sexuality? Was it an easy process?\u2014\u201cOkay; now, I\u2019m a believer. I\u2019m going to step away from this.\u201d Was it a journey?\u2014was it up and down?\n\nObviously, from the very beginning, you had a hermeneutic bent, even before you were a Christian to understand: \u201cBoy, here is what they are saying these Scriptures mean. Here is what they mean.\u201d You already had that hard-wired into you; so you had this bent, \u201cI\u2019m going to understand Scripture.\u201d But you\u2019ve got a life that you\u2019re deciding: \u201cAm I going to lead it? Am I going to continue it?\u201d Walk us through that journey, because it isn\u2019t one day; is it?\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> It\u2019s certainly not one day. This is part of why I wrote my book with such openness and honesty; because I think, if we can\u2019t see it happening in a real person\u2019s life, we kind of don\u2019t know what it looks like; we don\u2019t know what to expect. The danger, of course, is that, when you see just one story, you think it\u2019s the <em>only<\/em> story.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> My story can be weaponized, and people can try to laminate it onto other people; and that\u2019s not God\u2019s purpose.\n\nBut why did He write so much of the Scriptures in narrative? Sometimes, the universals are best illustrated in the highly specific. Part of what was really formative for me is I immediately got involved with the Christians at Yale and with the local church. I <em>had<\/em> to be in a community of God\u2019s people; but it became pretty clear to me, early on, \u201cHey, hey, I\u2019m still attracted to women.\u201d It\u2019s been 16 years, and I\u2019m still attracted to women.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Were you surprised that that wasn\u2019t gone?\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> I was not surprised; but at the same time, I was a little bit concerned about what I was supposed to do. I <em>knew<\/em> that God\u2019s Word said, \u201cNo,\u201d to acting on those attractions; but I still didn\u2019t understand <em>why<\/em>. I remember kind of bargaining with God, saying, \u201cHey; if You\u2019ll tell me why You say, \u2018No,\u2019 to this, then I will obey with <em>perfect<\/em> joy and obedience,\u201d\u2014which is ridiculous; right?\n\nThe first thing that God did in my life was He really <em>pressed<\/em> me\u2014He said, \u201cHey, what if the most important question isn\u2019t: \u2018Why did I say something?\u2019 What if the most important question is: \u2018Can you trust the One who is asking?\u2019\u201d Because if I\u2019m only willing to obey when I understand and agree, how am I not making <em>myself<\/em> God?\n\nI was pressed again and again back to the Garden of Eden, because there is a really interesting situation there. I turns out, even before sin entered the world, that God wanted us to live by faith and not by sight; right? He sets this whole <em>beautiful<\/em> arena, puts Adam and Eve there; and they are given one prohibition: \u201cDon\u2019t eat this fruit that\u2019s related to growing in knowledge. The day that you eat it, you will die.\u201d\n\nThe only way you can obey that is if you trust the One who told you. That\u2019s <em>exactly<\/em> where the serpent pressed Eve; right? He\u2019s like, \u201cHey, is that what God really said?\u201d He gets her to look at the fruit and to use her own data to evaluate it. She sees that it looks good, that it would taste good, that it is desirous to make her wise. On the one hand, she has all this data, saying, \u201cThe fruit is going to be good for her,\u201d and the only thing she has on the other side is God\u2019s word, saying, \u201cIf you eat it, you are going to die.\u201d I feel like that\u2019s where so many of us are when it comes to sexuality. When we use our own data, we\u2019re like, \u201cWhoa; but I should treat sexuality this way\u201d; but God\u2019s Word says something else\u2014it\u2019s like, \u201cIf you treat sexuality that way, you are going to die.\u201d\n\nEve and Adam both ate that fruit; because they said, \u201cGod must be holding out on me. He\u2019s not telling me the truth. He\u2019s keeping something from me; I need to get it myself.\u201d We all live downstream of that decision; that impulse is in all of us. Over and over again, early in my Christian life, through an open dumpster fire of failure, by the way, I had to get pressed again and again into: \u201cIs Jesus trustworthy?\u201d; because if I\u2019m going to trust Him with this aspect of my life, then what am I possibly resting on? He has shown again, and again, and again that He is perfectly for me.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You discovered in your college\/early journey that He was trustworthy. Did you also discover the community you were now bounding with\/the Christian community was trustworthy? Were you able to tell them who you were and what you were\u2014\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> Absolutely.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; how did that go?\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> It was so <em>great<\/em>. Again, I had not grown up in the church, so I hadn\u2019t grown up with a history of experiencing me being honest with people, and them telling me things that were unhelpful or shutting me down. I assumed, \u201cWell, I should tell people my real story.\u201d They responded to me with such grace and truth\u2014that\u2019s what I needed.\n\nYou know, if they had only extended me <em>grace<\/em> but not truth\u2014like there is no power there to say, \u201cNo,\u201d to temptation\u2014they would have helped me destroy myself. But if they had been all truth and no grace, I mean, I would have been crushed; because I did fail <em>several times<\/em>. They were <em>so wonderful<\/em> in demonstrating the grace and truth of Christ to me.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Rachel, there are some people who, on coming to Christ, recognize the claims of Christ on their life; but the power of the temptation is so strong that they just can\u2019t turn off the spigot, and they drift back. I am just wondering if that was a battle for you or whether God enabled you to resist temptation that still continued for you.\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> Well, there were times of victory. There were times of me being able to say, \u201cYes,\u201d to God and \u201cNo,\u201d to my sin; but then there were also times, where I said, \u201cYes,\u201d to my sin and \u201cNo,\u201d to God. It was <em>extremely<\/em> bumpy, up and down, as I learned\/really, as I trained my muscles of obedience.\n\nPart of what I had to commit to was to figure out: \u201cHey, is what my flesh is promising me\u2014is that actually better than what God is promising me?\u201d I had to come, face to face, with that question many times. Once I had actually tasted the goodness of Christ, even imperfectly, I just was never <em>as happy<\/em> with sin again; I kind of lost my taste for it. That doesn\u2019t mean I didn\u2019t choose it sometimes; it doesn\u2019t mean I didn\u2019t have to fight it.\n\nI think what really helped me was an actual relationship with the living God that was <em>better<\/em> than even the good things I experienced when I was giving into my desires.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Have you found that the same-sex attraction temptation\u2014is it harder to resist than other desire\/sin temptations?\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> People who experience same-sex attraction\u2014I mean, we experience it all in different ways, just like people who experience opposite-sex attraction experience it at different levels\u2014both in their own season of life and differently from other people. There are some men, who are attracted to women; and sexual temptation is a <em>battle<\/em> they have to fight their <em>whole<\/em> lives. There are other men, who are attracted to women, for whom they learn the obedience of faith; and actually, sexual temptation isn\u2019t that big of a deal for them. They\/their battle might be elsewhere\u2014like with anger or with passivity\u2014things like this; right?\n\nSome of us, same-sex attraction is <em>the<\/em> place where we are fighting for obedience. Certainly, early in my Christian life, it was the <em>main<\/em> arena of battle; but now, for example, 16 years into my faith, I still experience same-sex attraction; but honestly, the grace of God has so worked in my life that, even when it comes up, I know exactly what to do. It really helps me squash that down and say, \u201cYes,\u201d to the Lord\u2014not repressing my feeling\u2014but just saying, \u201cHey, I don\u2019t even want this, actually,\u201d\u2014not really temptation.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019ve got to say, 16 years into your journey, you have a kindergartner, and you have a husband. Explain to us; because not everybody goes on that path, who has experienced same-sex attraction.\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> No; that\u2019s right. Several disciples, who experience same-sex attraction, will <em>never<\/em> be called into an opposite-sex marriage. They will actually testify to the goodness of God <em>in their singleness<\/em> by saying, \u201cHey, marriage is good; but it points to the <em>real<\/em> marriage that\u2019s coming in the new heavens and the new earth, and there is nothing I\u2019m going to miss out on.\u201d\n\nActually, by <em>choosing<\/em> singleness for the sake of Christ, a person is saying, \u201cI believe in the resurrection with my whole life\u201d; but God does and will call several of us, who experience same-sex attraction, into opposite-sex marriages. It\u2019s like, \u201cI don\u2019t need to be attracted to <em>every<\/em> man in order to be faithfully married to <em>one<\/em> man. I just need to receive from God what I need for <em>this<\/em> marriage.\u201d\n\nSometimes, it\u2019s helpful to not be attracted to every man; right? It\u2019s helpful to just be attracted to the one man God has called me to. There is actually something really helpful in the fact that everyone who wants to follow Jesus has two options for their sexuality. They can be faithfully single, or they can be faithfully married as God defines marriage. God has called me to live faithfully in one of these two stations, and He is going to <em>equip<\/em> me to live there.\n\nTo the person who would say, \u201cThese desires are too strong; I cannot say, \u2018No,\u2019 to them,\u201d I want to say, \u201cWho owns you?! Do your desires own you, or does Jesus Christ own you?\u201d He has promised in 1 Corinthians 10:13: \u201cThere is <em>no<\/em> temptation that has overtaken you that is not common to man; but God will give you the way of escape.\u201d Does He say it\u2019s <em>easy<\/em>? Certainly not; but He does say it\u2019s <em>possible<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s a great question of: \u201cWho owns you?\u201d; because all of us have to come to that point of answering that question. I know for me, as a young woman\/as a 16-year-old, I gave my life to Jesus, not really knowing what that would mean\u2014and that means your sexuality as well\u2014but I didn\u2019t know that at the time.\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I had a boyfriend. I remember, being an 18-year-old, feeling like God was asking me: \u201cWill you give Me <em>everything<\/em>? Can I own <em>all of you<\/em>?\u201d\u2014which, to me, meant probably breaking up with this boyfriend\u2014really wasn\u2019t walking with Jesus.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; amen. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> The husband says, \u201cAmen.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes\u2014of committing to not having sex anymore because Jesus was asking me to live a life of purity as a single woman. Even now, I can feel my heart beating\/of remembering I knew the cost of that. I knew that Jesus was enough; and I was going to walk into that, surrendering everything, no matter what it meant\u2014kind of where we started: \u201cDid we ever think we would be in the places we are now?\u201d But I\u2019m so glad that Jesus takes us on a path that He knows what will bring us more joy and purpose in our lives than <em>even<\/em> we know.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s easy in the church\/in the Christian community to use these words, \u201cJesus is enough.\u201d I think many of us don\u2019t know Him well enough for Him to be enough;\u2014\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good point.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014so we go back to our sin, or we go back to that pleasure that we think will fill; and we end up always in the same place\u2014empty\u2014\u201cWhy did I do this?\u201d\n\nI think, Rachel, you\u2019ve helped us understand\u2014you\u2019ve said it so beautifully: \u201cJesus <em>is<\/em> enough. When you really surrender all, and experience the very presence and power of God in your life, He is enough.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And nothing quite compares either.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s something you have to taste.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Think about the title of the book, <em>Born Again This Way<\/em>. I mean, the cultural mantra is: \u201cIf you\u2019re born this way, you can\u2019t overcome that.\u201d Rachel, what you\u2019re saying is: \u201cWhen you are born again, there is now something that is <em>bigger<\/em> than how you were born.\u201d\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> In fact, I am saying, \u201cI cannot overcome this\u201d; but what I am saying, \u201cThere is Someone who can.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s good.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And you tell it <em>so beautifully<\/em> in the book. I hope our listeners will get a copy of your book; it\u2019s called <em>Born Again This Way: Coming Out, Coming to Faith, and What Comes Next<\/em>. Rachel Gilson is the author, our guest today. You can order her book from us at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get a copy. Again, the website to order a copy of Rachel\u2019s book is FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order: 1-800-FL-TODAY\u20141-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nI had a conversation yesterday with a mother of four, who said, \u201cI didn\u2019t grow up in a Christian home, neither did my husband.\u201d She said, \u201cI just want to say, \u201cThank you to you guys. You have discipled both of us over the last 20 years as we have started our marriage and our family. We\u2019ve been to <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> getaways. We listened regularly to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. You\u2019ve helped us understand what it means to live for Christ in our marriage and in our family.\u201d\n\nI wanted to share that with you, especially those of you who are monthly Legacy Partners, here, at <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. That\u2019s what you\u2019re investing in\u2014you\u2019re investing in the marriages and families of hundreds of thousands of people in this country and all around the world, who we are reaching with the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. We are so grateful to those of you who are part of this ministry and who make this ministry possible.\n\nThis week, we\u2019ve had some friends who have come to us, knowing that we need new Legacy Partners to join with us; and they\u2019ve agreed they will match every donation that comes from a Legacy Partner\u2014who signs up this week as a new Legacy Partner\u2014they\u2019ll match your donations for the next 12 months, dollar for dollar, up to a total of $25,000. We\u2019re excited about that; hope to take full advantage of that matching gift.\n\nWe\u2019re asking you: \u201cIf you are a regular <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listener, join the team; become a FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> Legacy Partner.\u201d When you do, we want to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d by sending you three gifts. The first is a copy of my new book, <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em>, about what real love looks like in a marriage relationship. We\u2019ll send you three episodes on DVD of the new <em>Slugs &amp; Bugs<\/em> TV show that features Randall Goodgame, who was a guest with us earlier this week; and we\u2019ll send you a gift certificate, where you and your spouse, or friends of yours, can attend as your guests, at a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway. We\u2019ll cover the cost of the registration.\n\nOf course, the getaways have to get up and going again; but we\u2019re ready to launch them as soon as we get the \u201cAll clear,\u201d to do that. The gift card is yours to hang onto for when the getaways are starting to be scheduled again. All of this is our way of saying, \u201cThank you for making <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> possible by being a Legacy Partner.\u201d You can find out more\u2014become a Legacy Partner online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call and talk to somebody, here, at FamilyLife; we can get you all signed up. The number to call is 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nNow, tomorrow, we\u2019re going to talk with Rachel Gilson about meeting a guy, who ultimately proposed to her and wanted her to marry him, knowing about her history of same-sex attraction\u2014how she processed all of that\/the conclusions she came to. We\u2019ll have that conversation tomorrow. I hope you can join us for that.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. 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});\";s:18:\"current_block_list\";a:17:{i:0;s:14:\"uagb\/container\";i:1;s:12:\"core\/heading\";i:2;s:9:\"core\/html\";i:3;s:10:\"core\/group\";i:6;s:21:\"uagb\/advanced-heading\";i:7;s:14:\"uagb\/separator\";i:8;s:14:\"uagb\/icon-list\";i:9;s:20:\"uagb\/icon-list-child\";i:10;s:11:\"core\/search\";i:13;s:18:\"core\/legacy-widget\";i:16;s:10:\"uagb\/image\";i:17;s:17:\"core\/social-links\";i:18;s:16:\"core\/social-link\";i:19;s:14:\"core\/paragraph\";i:20;s:30:\"meta-box\/fl-conditional-blocks\";i:21;s:12:\"uagb\/buttons\";i:22;s:18:\"uagb\/buttons-child\";}s:8:\"uag_flag\";b:1;s:11:\"uag_version\";i:1776462354;s:6:\"gfonts\";a:1:{s:7:\"Default\";a:2:{s:10:\"fontfamily\";s:7:\"Default\";s:12:\"fontvariants\";a:0:{}}}s:10:\"gfonts_url\";s:71:\"\/\/fonts.googleapis.com\/css?family=Default&subset=latin&display=fallback\";s:12:\"gfonts_files\";a:0:{}s:14:\"uag_faq_layout\";b:0;}"]},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Rachel Gilson talks about the importance of responding with God's loving design for a sexuality that is not arbitrary or cruel, on FamilyLife Today.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-08-27.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Should Christians today embrace a new vision of marriage, a vision that includes same-sex couples? Rachel Gilson doesn\u2019t think so.\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> I think the arguments for an evangelical case for same-sex marriage have become extremely sophisticated. It means that we need to do a good job in our churches explaining God\u2019s positive vision for sexuality\u2014not just the verses which say, \u201cNo,\u201d to same-sex sex\u2014and they are there; and they say, \u201cNo,\u201d\u2014but also what God says, \u201cYes,\u201d to. When we understand His <em>design<\/em> for sexuality, it helps us see that what He says, \u201cNo,\u201d to is not arbitrary or cruel.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, August 27<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I\u2019m Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. Rachel Gilson has thought a lot about gender and sexuality and about marriage because of her own experience of being same-sex attracted. We\u2019ll talk with her today about how she\u2019s come to make biblical sense of all of this. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I have, sometimes, thought that it is a good thing\u2014at least, for me it was a good thing\u2014that I didn\u2019t understand exactly all I was signing up for when I became a Christian. [Laughter] Because if somebody had sat down and said, \u201cThis is what it\u2019s going to mean\u2026\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> If someone would have told me that you\u2019re going to marry a pastor and live in Detroit, Michigan, I would have run as far away from God as I could.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Not everybody that becomes a Christian is going marry a pastor and live in Detroit.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You were okay with being a missionary in Africa;\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; \u201cSend me there!\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014but a pastor\u2019s wife in Detroit: \u201cForget it.\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; exactly!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014not going to happen.\n\nYes, I think there is some truth to the fact that we often hear and think: \u201cWhat am I going to give up?\u201d \u201cThis is what I have to give up,\u201d \u201cThis is what is going to go away.\u201d Why does no one talk about, \u201cHere is what you get\u201d?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cOn the other side, there\u2019s an amazing thing\u201d; but anyway.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> But the disciples that followed Jesus\u2014they\u2019re thinking, \u201cWe\u2019re going to follow this guy.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, one of them said, \u201cWhere else\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cdo we go? You alone have the words of eternal life.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; that one of them was Peter there, Bob\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That\u2019s who it was.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014just in case you are wondering. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, we have got a friend joining us this week on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, Rachel Gilson, who kind of came to a point in her life, where she recognized, \u201cWhatever I have to do, I\u2019ve got to acknowledge that Jesus is who He claims to be.\u201d\n\nRachel, welcome back to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> It\u2019s my pleasure. You know, even as you\u2019re talking, I\u2019m thinking, \u201cMy favorite parable is that short one, where Jesus says, \u2018A man found a treasure in a field; and in his joy, he went and sold everything so he could buy that field.\u2019\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Joy.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You understand a little about selling everything. You\u2019ve written a book called <em>Born Again This Way<\/em>, which is your story of growing up. You\u2019ve already shared with us about same-sex attraction that you started to experience while you were in high school. You started acting on that. You went to college at Yale; this was still\u2014maybe, not <em>the<\/em> defining part of your life\u2014but a significant part of your life until you were reading <em>Mere Christianity<\/em> and had to close the book and say, \u201cOkay\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; what exactly did she say? \u201cFine! Okay.\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cI\u2019ll be a Christian.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cI\u2019ll surrender\u201d; yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \u201cFine; I\u2019ll be a Christian,\u201d\u2014that was your prayer of salvation. In that moment, were you thinking, \u201cThis is going to have implications for my sexuality\u201d?\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> I already knew. I knew because I had encountered those other interpretations of Scripture, which claimed that God supports monogamous same-sex relationships. I had considered them carefully, and I had found them <em>wanting<\/em>. By the time I got confronted with the fact that I was knee-deep in my sin\/over my head in my sin, there was no way out except the blood of Christ, I already knew that meant everything belongs to Him. I didn\u2019t know what that was going to mean experientially.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And I hear people today, who are finding the arguments\u2014that you found unconvincing\u2014they are finding them convincing. We\u2019ve seen a wave of people, who have kind of moved from an orthodox view of sexuality to a modern view of sexuality, and saying, \u201cThis is still in bounds.\u201d I remember reading an article, where a woman said, \u201cWhen I was experiencing same-sex attraction, I would have loved to have heard an argument that would have convinced me that this was okay; because it would have validated my desires.\u201d\n\nWhat are you saying as you engage with the people, who are drifting in the other direction, and saying, \u201cNo; there is a biblical case for this; in fact, it is stronger today than it\u2019s ever been\u201d?\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> We have to realize most people are attracted to what\u2019s been called the affirming view, which that would say, \u201cGod affirms same-sex relationships.\u201d Most people are attracted to the <em>affirming<\/em> view, because they genuinely care about the gay and lesbian people in their lives.\n\nThey have been taught by culture that the only way you can have a happy life is if you have a romantic partner\u2014right?\u2014and if you have a romantic and sexual partner who fulfills you. They say, \u201cWell, that\u2019s what would fulfill my gay and lesbian friend. God has promised that He wants us to be happy,\u201d\u2014which, hello, is that what He promised? But you know, we kind of take these different ingredients and blend them all in our Ninja<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> and then come out the other side and say, \u201cWell, God wants me to be happy, and this would make you happy; therefore, that\u2019s probably what God wants.\u201d\n\nWhen I am approaching someone, who holds the affirming view, I want to be asking a lot of questions; because usually, they\u2019ve seen some kind of pain in someone\u2019s life that they care about\u2014it\u2019s some type of promise that was unbiblical, or mistreatment by a church, or\u2014there are a dozen different things that can lead people to think, \u201cWell, maybe, this is what God really wants because it\u2019s what my friend or my family member really wants.\u201d\n\nI think that\u2019s why it is important to really gently bring each other back to the Scriptures; right? It says in Hebrews 3, \u201cWe need to exhort one another <em>every day<\/em> as long as it is called today so that none of us might be hardened by the\u201d\u2014what\u2019s the word?\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014deceitfulness.\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> \u2014\u201c<em>deceitfulness<\/em> of sin\u201d; right? We are suckers for sin; we are easily duped. So where are we going to go?\u2014we <em>have<\/em> to go to God\u2019s Word.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You were saying you would go to your friend and ask questions\u2014those questions being into their past?\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m asking that, for so many of us with friends, of just hearing their story.\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> I want to hear their story, and I also want to hear what they think of God\u2019s Word. Do they think of God\u2019s Word as something that actually carries life and authority, or do they think of it as something where they can cherry pick?\u2014right?\n\nWe actually have an incredibly biblically-illiterate society right now. If we take something that is this tender and this disputed, and we throw it to people who actually haven\u2019t been trained very well in how to read the Scriptures, outside of little verses that have been pulled out and stuck on coffee cups, well, no wonder we\u2019ve got people confused and easily taken advantage of by these very sophisticated arguments.\n\nI think the arguments for an evangelical case for same-sex marriage have become extremely sophisticated. It means that we need to do a good job in our churches, explaining God\u2019s positive vision for sexuality\u2014not just the verses which say, \u201cNo,\u201d to same-sex sex\u2014and they are there, and they say, \u201cNo,\u201d\u2014but also what God says, \u201cYes,\u201d to. When we understand His <em>design<\/em> for sexuality, it helps us see that what He says, \u201cNo,\u201d to isn\u2019t arbitrary or cruel; because I think that is the way a lot of people feel. They feel like what God says, \u201cNo,\u201d to is arbitrary and it\u2019s cruel; but His character is not arbitrary and cruel.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> As you gave your life to Christ in college\u2014obviously, we are talking, now, way down the road\u2014go back: \u201cDid you <em>immediately<\/em> understand God\u2019s heart regarding your sexuality? Was it an easy process?\u2014\u201cOkay; now, I\u2019m a believer. I\u2019m going to step away from this.\u201d Was it a journey?\u2014was it up and down?\n\nObviously, from the very beginning, you had a hermeneutic bent, even before you were a Christian to understand: \u201cBoy, here is what they are saying these Scriptures mean. Here is what they mean.\u201d You already had that hard-wired into you; so you had this bent, \u201cI\u2019m going to understand Scripture.\u201d But you\u2019ve got a life that you\u2019re deciding: \u201cAm I going to lead it? Am I going to continue it?\u201d Walk us through that journey, because it isn\u2019t one day; is it?\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> It\u2019s certainly not one day. This is part of why I wrote my book with such openness and honesty; because I think, if we can\u2019t see it happening in a real person\u2019s life, we kind of don\u2019t know what it looks like; we don\u2019t know what to expect. The danger, of course, is that, when you see just one story, you think it\u2019s the <em>only<\/em> story.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> My story can be weaponized, and people can try to laminate it onto other people; and that\u2019s not God\u2019s purpose.\n\nBut why did He write so much of the Scriptures in narrative? Sometimes, the universals are best illustrated in the highly specific. Part of what was really formative for me is I immediately got involved with the Christians at Yale and with the local church. I <em>had<\/em> to be in a community of God\u2019s people; but it became pretty clear to me, early on, \u201cHey, hey, I\u2019m still attracted to women.\u201d It\u2019s been 16 years, and I\u2019m still attracted to women.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Were you surprised that that wasn\u2019t gone?\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> I was not surprised; but at the same time, I was a little bit concerned about what I was supposed to do. I <em>knew<\/em> that God\u2019s Word said, \u201cNo,\u201d to acting on those attractions; but I still didn\u2019t understand <em>why<\/em>. I remember kind of bargaining with God, saying, \u201cHey; if You\u2019ll tell me why You say, \u2018No,\u2019 to this, then I will obey with <em>perfect<\/em> joy and obedience,\u201d\u2014which is ridiculous; right?\n\nThe first thing that God did in my life was He really <em>pressed<\/em> me\u2014He said, \u201cHey, what if the most important question isn\u2019t: \u2018Why did I say something?\u2019 What if the most important question is: \u2018Can you trust the One who is asking?\u2019\u201d Because if I\u2019m only willing to obey when I understand and agree, how am I not making <em>myself<\/em> God?\n\nI was pressed again and again back to the Garden of Eden, because there is a really interesting situation there. I turns out, even before sin entered the world, that God wanted us to live by faith and not by sight; right? He sets this whole <em>beautiful<\/em> arena, puts Adam and Eve there; and they are given one prohibition: \u201cDon\u2019t eat this fruit that\u2019s related to growing in knowledge. The day that you eat it, you will die.\u201d\n\nThe only way you can obey that is if you trust the One who told you. That\u2019s <em>exactly<\/em> where the serpent pressed Eve; right? He\u2019s like, \u201cHey, is that what God really said?\u201d He gets her to look at the fruit and to use her own data to evaluate it. She sees that it looks good, that it would taste good, that it is desirous to make her wise. On the one hand, she has all this data, saying, \u201cThe fruit is going to be good for her,\u201d and the only thing she has on the other side is God\u2019s word, saying, \u201cIf you eat it, you are going to die.\u201d I feel like that\u2019s where so many of us are when it comes to sexuality. When we use our own data, we\u2019re like, \u201cWhoa; but I should treat sexuality this way\u201d; but God\u2019s Word says something else\u2014it\u2019s like, \u201cIf you treat sexuality that way, you are going to die.\u201d\n\nEve and Adam both ate that fruit; because they said, \u201cGod must be holding out on me. He\u2019s not telling me the truth. He\u2019s keeping something from me; I need to get it myself.\u201d We all live downstream of that decision; that impulse is in all of us. Over and over again, early in my Christian life, through an open dumpster fire of failure, by the way, I had to get pressed again and again into: \u201cIs Jesus trustworthy?\u201d; because if I\u2019m going to trust Him with this aspect of my life, then what am I possibly resting on? He has shown again, and again, and again that He is perfectly for me.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You discovered in your college\/early journey that He was trustworthy. Did you also discover the community you were now bounding with\/the Christian community was trustworthy? Were you able to tell them who you were and what you were\u2014\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> Absolutely.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; how did that go?\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> It was so <em>great<\/em>. Again, I had not grown up in the church, so I hadn\u2019t grown up with a history of experiencing me being honest with people, and them telling me things that were unhelpful or shutting me down. I assumed, \u201cWell, I should tell people my real story.\u201d They responded to me with such grace and truth\u2014that\u2019s what I needed.\n\nYou know, if they had only extended me <em>grace<\/em> but not truth\u2014like there is no power there to say, \u201cNo,\u201d to temptation\u2014they would have helped me destroy myself. But if they had been all truth and no grace, I mean, I would have been crushed; because I did fail <em>several times<\/em>. They were <em>so wonderful<\/em> in demonstrating the grace and truth of Christ to me.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Rachel, there are some people who, on coming to Christ, recognize the claims of Christ on their life; but the power of the temptation is so strong that they just can\u2019t turn off the spigot, and they drift back. I am just wondering if that was a battle for you or whether God enabled you to resist temptation that still continued for you.\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> Well, there were times of victory. There were times of me being able to say, \u201cYes,\u201d to God and \u201cNo,\u201d to my sin; but then there were also times, where I said, \u201cYes,\u201d to my sin and \u201cNo,\u201d to God. It was <em>extremely<\/em> bumpy, up and down, as I learned\/really, as I trained my muscles of obedience.\n\nPart of what I had to commit to was to figure out: \u201cHey, is what my flesh is promising me\u2014is that actually better than what God is promising me?\u201d I had to come, face to face, with that question many times. Once I had actually tasted the goodness of Christ, even imperfectly, I just was never <em>as happy<\/em> with sin again; I kind of lost my taste for it. That doesn\u2019t mean I didn\u2019t choose it sometimes; it doesn\u2019t mean I didn\u2019t have to fight it.\n\nI think what really helped me was an actual relationship with the living God that was <em>better<\/em> than even the good things I experienced when I was giving into my desires.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Have you found that the same-sex attraction temptation\u2014is it harder to resist than other desire\/sin temptations?\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> People who experience same-sex attraction\u2014I mean, we experience it all in different ways, just like people who experience opposite-sex attraction experience it at different levels\u2014both in their own season of life and differently from other people. There are some men, who are attracted to women; and sexual temptation is a <em>battle<\/em> they have to fight their <em>whole<\/em> lives. There are other men, who are attracted to women, for whom they learn the obedience of faith; and actually, sexual temptation isn\u2019t that big of a deal for them. They\/their battle might be elsewhere\u2014like with anger or with passivity\u2014things like this; right?\n\nSome of us, same-sex attraction is <em>the<\/em> place where we are fighting for obedience. Certainly, early in my Christian life, it was the <em>main<\/em> arena of battle; but now, for example, 16 years into my faith, I still experience same-sex attraction; but honestly, the grace of God has so worked in my life that, even when it comes up, I know exactly what to do. It really helps me squash that down and say, \u201cYes,\u201d to the Lord\u2014not repressing my feeling\u2014but just saying, \u201cHey, I don\u2019t even want this, actually,\u201d\u2014not really temptation.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019ve got to say, 16 years into your journey, you have a kindergartner, and you have a husband. Explain to us; because not everybody goes on that path, who has experienced same-sex attraction.\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> No; that\u2019s right. Several disciples, who experience same-sex attraction, will <em>never<\/em> be called into an opposite-sex marriage. They will actually testify to the goodness of God <em>in their singleness<\/em> by saying, \u201cHey, marriage is good; but it points to the <em>real<\/em> marriage that\u2019s coming in the new heavens and the new earth, and there is nothing I\u2019m going to miss out on.\u201d\n\nActually, by <em>choosing<\/em> singleness for the sake of Christ, a person is saying, \u201cI believe in the resurrection with my whole life\u201d; but God does and will call several of us, who experience same-sex attraction, into opposite-sex marriages. It\u2019s like, \u201cI don\u2019t need to be attracted to <em>every<\/em> man in order to be faithfully married to <em>one<\/em> man. I just need to receive from God what I need for <em>this<\/em> marriage.\u201d\n\nSometimes, it\u2019s helpful to not be attracted to every man; right? It\u2019s helpful to just be attracted to the one man God has called me to. There is actually something really helpful in the fact that everyone who wants to follow Jesus has two options for their sexuality. They can be faithfully single, or they can be faithfully married as God defines marriage. God has called me to live faithfully in one of these two stations, and He is going to <em>equip<\/em> me to live there.\n\nTo the person who would say, \u201cThese desires are too strong; I cannot say, \u2018No,\u2019 to them,\u201d I want to say, \u201cWho owns you?! Do your desires own you, or does Jesus Christ own you?\u201d He has promised in 1 Corinthians 10:13: \u201cThere is <em>no<\/em> temptation that has overtaken you that is not common to man; but God will give you the way of escape.\u201d Does He say it\u2019s <em>easy<\/em>? Certainly not; but He does say it\u2019s <em>possible<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s a great question of: \u201cWho owns you?\u201d; because all of us have to come to that point of answering that question. I know for me, as a young woman\/as a 16-year-old, I gave my life to Jesus, not really knowing what that would mean\u2014and that means your sexuality as well\u2014but I didn\u2019t know that at the time.\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I had a boyfriend. I remember, being an 18-year-old, feeling like God was asking me: \u201cWill you give Me <em>everything<\/em>? Can I own <em>all of you<\/em>?\u201d\u2014which, to me, meant probably breaking up with this boyfriend\u2014really wasn\u2019t walking with Jesus.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; amen. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> The husband says, \u201cAmen.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes\u2014of committing to not having sex anymore because Jesus was asking me to live a life of purity as a single woman. Even now, I can feel my heart beating\/of remembering I knew the cost of that. I knew that Jesus was enough; and I was going to walk into that, surrendering everything, no matter what it meant\u2014kind of where we started: \u201cDid we ever think we would be in the places we are now?\u201d But I\u2019m so glad that Jesus takes us on a path that He knows what will bring us more joy and purpose in our lives than <em>even<\/em> we know.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s easy in the church\/in the Christian community to use these words, \u201cJesus is enough.\u201d I think many of us don\u2019t know Him well enough for Him to be enough;\u2014\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good point.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014so we go back to our sin, or we go back to that pleasure that we think will fill; and we end up always in the same place\u2014empty\u2014\u201cWhy did I do this?\u201d\n\nI think, Rachel, you\u2019ve helped us understand\u2014you\u2019ve said it so beautifully: \u201cJesus <em>is<\/em> enough. When you really surrender all, and experience the very presence and power of God in your life, He is enough.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And nothing quite compares either.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s something you have to taste.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Think about the title of the book, <em>Born Again This Way<\/em>. I mean, the cultural mantra is: \u201cIf you\u2019re born this way, you can\u2019t overcome that.\u201d Rachel, what you\u2019re saying is: \u201cWhen you are born again, there is now something that is <em>bigger<\/em> than how you were born.\u201d\n\n<strong>Rachel:<\/strong> In fact, I am saying, \u201cI cannot overcome this\u201d; but what I am saying, \u201cThere is Someone who can.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s good.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And you tell it <em>so beautifully<\/em> in the book. I hope our listeners will get a copy of your book; it\u2019s called <em>Born Again This Way: Coming Out, Coming to Faith, and What Comes Next<\/em>. Rachel Gilson is the author, our guest today. You can order her book from us at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get a copy. Again, the website to order a copy of Rachel\u2019s book is FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order: 1-800-FL-TODAY\u20141-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nI had a conversation yesterday with a mother of four, who said, \u201cI didn\u2019t grow up in a Christian home, neither did my husband.\u201d She said, \u201cI just want to say, \u201cThank you to you guys. You have discipled both of us over the last 20 years as we have started our marriage and our family. We\u2019ve been to <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> getaways. We listened regularly to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. You\u2019ve helped us understand what it means to live for Christ in our marriage and in our family.\u201d\n\nI wanted to share that with you, especially those of you who are monthly Legacy Partners, here, at <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. That\u2019s what you\u2019re investing in\u2014you\u2019re investing in the marriages and families of hundreds of thousands of people in this country and all around the world, who we are reaching with the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. We are so grateful to those of you who are part of this ministry and who make this ministry possible.\n\nThis week, we\u2019ve had some friends who have come to us, knowing that we need new Legacy Partners to join with us; and they\u2019ve agreed they will match every donation that comes from a Legacy Partner\u2014who signs up this week as a new Legacy Partner\u2014they\u2019ll match your donations for the next 12 months, dollar for dollar, up to a total of $25,000. We\u2019re excited about that; hope to take full advantage of that matching gift.\n\nWe\u2019re asking you: \u201cIf you are a regular <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listener, join the team; become a FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> Legacy Partner.\u201d When you do, we want to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d by sending you three gifts. The first is a copy of my new book, <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em>, about what real love looks like in a marriage relationship. We\u2019ll send you three episodes on DVD of the new <em>Slugs &amp; Bugs<\/em> TV show that features Randall Goodgame, who was a guest with us earlier this week; and we\u2019ll send you a gift certificate, where you and your spouse, or friends of yours, can attend as your guests, at a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway. We\u2019ll cover the cost of the registration.\n\nOf course, the getaways have to get up and going again; but we\u2019re ready to launch them as soon as we get the \u201cAll clear,\u201d to do that. The gift card is yours to hang onto for when the getaways are starting to be scheduled again. All of this is our way of saying, \u201cThank you for making <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> possible by being a Legacy Partner.\u201d You can find out more\u2014become a Legacy Partner online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call and talk to somebody, here, at FamilyLife; we can get you all signed up. The number to call is 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nNow, tomorrow, we\u2019re going to talk with Rachel Gilson about meeting a guy, who ultimately proposed to her and wanted her to marry him, knowing about her history of same-sex attraction\u2014how she processed all of that\/the conclusions she came to. We\u2019ll have that conversation tomorrow. I hope you can join us for that.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. 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