{"id":306353,"date":"2020-08-26T07:00:04","date_gmt":"2020-08-26T11:00:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/full-of-grace-and-truth\/"},"modified":"2020-08-26T07:00:04","modified_gmt":"2020-08-26T11:00:04","slug":"full-of-grace-and-truth","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/full-of-grace-and-truth\/","title":{"rendered":"Full of Grace and Truth"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Is a person &#8220;born gay&#8221;? How should parents approach this topic with their kids? Rachel Gilson, author of the book &#8220;Born Again This Way,&#8221; discusses issues of sexuality, gender, and culture. Rachel experienced same-sex attraction from an early age, but when she became a Christ-follower as an adult, God began to bring her views about sexuality under the authority of the cross.<\/p>\n<p>Show Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tFind resources from this podcast at https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=95.<br \/>\n \tCheck out all that&#8217;s available on the FamilyLife Podcast Network.\u00a0 https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/<br \/>\n \tHave the FamilyLife Today\u00ae podcast and resources helped you?\u00a0 Consider becoming a Legacy Partner, a monthly supporter of FamilyLife.\u00a0https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/legacy<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Rachel Gilson experienced same-sex attraction from an early age, but when she became a Christ-follower as an adult, God began to bring her views about sexuality under the authority of the cross.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-08-26.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:29:40","filesize":"27.17M","filesize_raw":"28489676","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2906,2805,2896],"tags":[4129],"podcast_series":[8386],"cwp_profile":[9644],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-306353","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-becoming-a-christian","category-gods-plan-for-marriage","category-lgbt","tag-homosexuality","podcast_series-born-again-this-way","cwp_profile-rachel-gilson","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/306353\/full-of-grace-and-truth","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/306353\/full-of-grace-and-truth","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"9XkyrrCTVC\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/full-of-grace-and-truth\/\">Full of Grace and Truth<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/full-of-grace-and-truth\/embed\/#?secret=9XkyrrCTVC\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Full of Grace and Truth&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"9XkyrrCTVC\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-08-26.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-08-26.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Rachel Gilson started experiencing same-sex attraction when she was a teenager and was trying to process what that meant for the rest of her life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>I was pretty eager to get out of my cow town\u2014literally, my high school had a working farm on the campus\u2014I was pretty eager to get to Yale\/to the east coast to be at a place, where I could explore my sexuality more freely\/where I could kind of dive into both that part of my life and big ideas. I think it was a <em>huge<\/em> grace of the Lord to me that He saved me so early in my experience of college so that I actually didn\u2019t have much time to plant my feet there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Wednesday, August 26<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You\u2019ll find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. What was it that caused Rachel Gilson, early in her college career, to reconsider the purpose for her life and her sexuality? We\u2019ll talk with Rachel about that today. Stay with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. Three of us had an opportunity awhile back to be with a group of moms and dads, and we were talking about relationships between parents and adult kids; it was a great interaction that we had. We got to Q&amp;A time at the end\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>That was interesting! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Oh, yes; I know where you\u2019re going now; I remember!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>When you said it was a great conversation, I said, \u201cYes, I agree\u201d; and then, <em>boom<\/em>, the mic opened\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Anytime I\u2019m talking with parents of adult kids or parents of teen kids today, and you say, \u201cOkay, who has a question?\u201d the subject of sexuality, gender, same-sex attraction\u2014if that\u2019s not the first question, it\u2019s because the person was too afraid to ask it first; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>It almost always comes up\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014because parents are looking for answers and help.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes; it was actually a great conversation. The questions were raw; they were real. There were tears from parents that really are grappling with what the society\u2019s grappling with: \u201cWhat do I think?\u201d \u201cWhat do I believe?\u201d \u201cHow do I respond?\u201d \u201cWhat should be my posture?\u201d \u201cHow do I love my child?\u201d Bob had all the right answers, so it was great! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I\u2019m glad he was with us!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, over the years on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, as we\u2019ve talked with different people about this, it\u2019s been clear to us that Jesus\u2014John describes Him this way in John 1:14\u2014was \u201cfull of grace and truth.\u201d Some people come at this issue and say, \u201cI have to be full of truth,\u201d and they closet the grace; and some, \u201cI have to be full of grace,\u201d and they closet the truth. Jesus would not have done that; He would have been full of grace and truth.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s hard for us to figure out, because most of us are going to <em>lean<\/em> in one of those two directions. We\u2019re either going to lean grace or lean truth. We have to figure out: \u201cHow do I be full of that part that I\u2019m not typically going to lean in that direction toward?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have a guest joining us today, who I\u2019m glad to have as a part of this conversation with us. Rachel Gilson is with us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Rachel, welcome.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>I\u2019m glad to be here, and I just want to amen everything in that intro right there. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> We\u2019re excited that you\u2019re with us, Rachel.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Rachel helps give theological direction to all of us, who are a part of the staff of Cru<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. You\u2019ve been on Cru staff how long?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>I joined in 2011, which was right when the name changed from Campus Crusade for Christ<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> to Cru, so all the swag we got was immediately vintage. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Rachel has just written a book that is part memoir and part coaching manual. I mean, I really think it provides <em>both<\/em> of these functions for us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes, it does.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>It\u2019s a book called <em>Born Again This Way<\/em>. I\u2019m imagining some of our listeners don\u2019t catch the hip pop culture reference that she makes in the title, but we should start there. Tell everybody who doesn\u2019t get it why you picked that name.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>Wildly popular performer Lady Gaga released a song\u2014I don\u2019t know how many years ago\u2014<em>Born This Way<\/em>. It\u2019s kind of an anthem celebrating that, \u201cHey, however you were born,\u201d\u2014and particularly in view were LGBT attractions\u2014\u201cthat is what you should celebrate; that is what you should lean into.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy experience has been someone who experienced same-sex attraction but is a disciple of Christ. My whole life in Jesus has been figuring out, \u201cWhat is the relationship between my desires and the God who loves me?\u201d Primary in my life is being born again.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yet, Rachel, you didn\u2019t grow up in a Christian home. Share with us a little bit about your story of growing up.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>I grew up in Southern California in a very non-religious household, actually. Even though the people around me were very church-going, my family\u2014we weren\u2019t even Christmas and Easter people\u2014we just sort of did whatever. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBy the time I got to high school, I was really interested in big ideas; but as I tried to talk to the kids around me, who identified as Christian, about big ideas, they just didn\u2019t seem to have the kind of answers I was looking for. I kind of brushed Christianity off, by the end of high school, as a place people went to when they didn\u2019t know how to think for themselves\/somewhat of a crutch. I\u2019ve since discovered that Christianity is actually the greatest intellectual tradition that\u2019s ever hit the planet, but I didn\u2019t quite have a view of that as a teenage girl. I was pretty hardened in my atheism by the time I was going off to college.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAlso, in high school, I realized that my sexuality felt so much more at home with other young women. My other understanding of Christianity was: \u201cThis is full of people, who don\u2019t like people with my sexuality.\u201d I found this, even though I had never been mistreated by the church or by any Christians, it was just sort of an attitude I picked up. By the time I was going into college, I thought, \u201cChristians are stupid, and Christians are bigots. Goodness, who wants to be associated with stupid bigots?\u201d\u2014you know?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Let me back up to the first time you had some sense that maybe your way of perceiving attraction was different than your peer group.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>I happened to meet a girl in high school. She was a senior; I was a sophomore; we were in the same AP European history class. Really, she just wanted to use to me to help study for a test. Because I was a nerd, I was focused; she was a senior, easy-breezy. She invited me over to her house. I knew it was opportunistic, right? I knew she didn\u2019t want to be my friend; she just wanted to study with me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut you know, when you\u2019re a sophomore, you want to hang out with the seniors; that\u2019s pretty cool. When I was spending time with her, helping prepare for that test, there was just sort of this moment I was with her; we ended up mostly talking all night instead of studying; who\u2019s surprised? I remember it was almost like a little click in my heart, where I thought, \u201cWait a minute; I really like her. Wait a minute; do I like <em>like<\/em> her?\u201d\u2014very technical terms, of course. I couldn\u2019t quite shake that maybe this feeling matched how my peers actually described feeling about boys. I spent about a week kind of processing: \u201cIs this allowed? Is this okay? I do think that\u2019s how I feel, but it doesn\u2019t seem like it\u2019s right.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis was back when <em>Will &amp; Grace<\/em> was still edgy, not nostalgic\u2014you know\u2014this is 2001. But I remember sort of digging through my junk drawer of morality available, and I couldn\u2019t find any possible reason why this wouldn\u2019t be okay; right? Way before the phrase \u201cLove is love\u201d became culturally popular, it was where I landed. I thought, \u201cWell, it\u2019s not hurting anybody\u201d; so I decided to just go all in. As I gained romantic and sexual experiences with other young women, I thought, \u201cOh yes; this is definitely my home.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>When you go back now, and try to deconstruct what was going on in Rachel\u2019s heart and life, as a high school student, were you culturally influenced\/were you hormonally influenced? Was it biology?\u2014was it nature\/nurture? What\u2019s your sense of what was going on then?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>You know, on some level, so much of my focus in discipleship hasn\u2019t been on interrogating where the feelings have come from but rather what my faithful <em>response<\/em> to them should be that I don\u2019t know that I\u2019ve even considered that it matters very much. Maybe it was cultural\/maybe it was biological; but at the end of the day, either way, I have a responsibility to say \u201cNo,\u201d to temptation to sin and to say \u201cYes,\u201d to Christ.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt the time, when I was discovering this about myself, it wasn\u2019t yet culturally cool in the way that it is now. It\u2019s actually amazing to me how much this has turned the corner in \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t20 years\/15 years. But I do think it\u2019s something we strongly need to consider as we disciple our children, both the ones that live in our household and just the children with us in church\u2014to think really critically, with a biblical worldview that looks at some of the things they\u2019re seeing in the outside world with an eye of skepticism; right?\u2014like: \u201cWell, what does make someone special?\u201d \u201cHow do I tell right from wrong?\u201d \u201cCrucially, where are we supposed to go to understand our own feelings and whether or not we should listen to them?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I think that believers that are walking with Jesus\u2014that are raising young kids\u2014are sometimes confused about how to communicate these kinds of things to their kids. What do you think? As you\u2019ve walked this path\u2014and you\u2019re married now\u2014how would you instruct them\/what would you say?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>I think it\u2019s a really important question. I have a six-year-old right now, so\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014so you\u2019re there!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>I\u2019m there, but it also means I\u2019m also <em>not<\/em> there. I\u2019ve never tried to parent a 14-year-old or parent a 24-year-old; I\u2019ve only parented up to a six-year-old. But it is <em>very<\/em> much on my mind.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think one of the reasons that parents are feeling so unprepared is that the church, for the past 50 years, has almost been accidentally in agreement with God\u2019s doctrine. It\u2019s been very much instinctual that marriage is male and female, so we haven\u2019t had to dig into our own texts\/our own Scriptures to find: \u201c<em>Why<\/em> is it male\/female?\u201d It just seemed obvious. Now that we\u2019re getting a lot of pressure to explain why we think what we think, if the parents haven\u2019t been catechized in a positive view of God\u2019s vision for sexuality, then how in the world are they going to be able to pass that on to their children?\u2014right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDisney movies and the church have both told us that marriage is really about marrying your best friend, having great sex, and maybe kids if you can afford them; right? Two men can do all those things; two women can do all those things. If that\u2019s all marriage is, then no wonder we felt flat-footed when trying to explain to our children why people of the same sex can\u2019t have that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut when we go back to the Scriptures, we actually find a more robust picture of why marriage exists and what the elements need to be to fulfill that vision that God\u2019s created it for.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>As you go back to, you know, you as a high school girl, walking through this journey, I\u2019m guessing the Scriptures weren\u2019t something you were looking at, at that time; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>Oh, certainly not!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>You\u2019re living out your life. Are you at a point, as you reflect back, was this something that was like, \u201cWow! I\u2019m going to celebrate this; this is wonderful!\u201d\u2014was there the opposite or was it somewhere in between\u2014like, \u201cI need to hide this\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>I never \u201clived in the closet\u201d\u2014would be the phrase\u2014I never hid it; but I was pretty eager to get out of my cow town\u2014literally, my high school had a working farm on the campus\u2014I was pretty eager to get to Yale\/to the east coast to be at a place, where I could explore my sexuality more freely\/where I could kind of dive into both that part of my life and big ideas.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think it was a <em>huge<\/em> grace of the Lord to me that He saved me so early in my experience of college, so that I actually didn\u2019t have much time to plant my feet there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Talk about that. You get to Yale; how did that happen? What happened?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>On the one hand, I thought very highly of my intellectual prowess; and then I showed up at Yale and realized, \u201cUh-oh, I\u2019m not the smartest person in the world!\u201d That kind of sent one pillar of my identity crumbling.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnother thing that happened, early on at Yale, was that the girl I was dating at the time broke up with me. I ended up in a little bit of a pit of an identity crisis. You know, I was kind of tossing around for: \u201cWho am I? If I don\u2019t have her\/if I don\u2019t have my academic excellence, who am I?\u201d It wasn\u2019t like, \u201cOh, I\u2019m going to turn to Jesus,\u201d because I didn\u2019t believe in Jesus. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI happened to be in a lecture. I was taking a course of study through the Western canon\u2014it was a philosophy class\u2014and early in the spring semester, we were having a lecture on Rene Descartes\u2014you know, the old dead European, who invented the phrase, \u201cI think, therefore I am.\u201d From that phrase, he invents this whole proof for the existence of God. I remember sitting in the audience, thinking, \u201cThat\u2019s a really stupid proof for the existence of God,\u201d which I still think. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut while I was sitting in the audience, I remember thinking, \u201cWell, what if there are better proofs for the existence of God? This one\u2019s not very compelling, but there might be something better.\u201d I sort of immediately tensed up, like: \u201cNo, no. That\u2019s not what we think about; that\u2019s for stupid bigots\u201d; you know? It was just like, \u201cWe\u2019re not going to go there.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut once the can had been opened in my mind, I kind of couldn\u2019t shake it. I remember\u2014you know, I\u2019m a good Millennial\u2014so I went back to my room and I would just Google<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> religious search terms over and over again. [Laughter] Again and again, I kept coming back to reading about the person of Jesus, and He was so much more interesting than I had thought.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Had you ever read the Bible before?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>I had occasionally read some sections of the Bible, like when I was in hotel rooms. I would love the Gideon Bibles; I would open them up and read the KJV language sometimes. But this was the first time I was really reading it for myself with interest. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I immediately felt a type of barrier; I was like, \u201cWell, I\u2019m going to marry a woman someday. Even if I wanted Jesus, this is categorically not for me.\u201d The only two people I knew at Yale, who identified as Christians, were these two women who were dating each other; so I thought, \u201cMaybe they can shed some light on this for me. Maybe they can explain something.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI went to them as if by night\u2014right?\u2014kind of trembling, like, \u201cHow do you reconcile all these things?\u201d They were sweet girls. I remember them saying, \u201cOh, it\u2019s all been a big misunderstanding! That\u2019s not actually what the Bible <em>really<\/em> says. The Bible actually supports monogamous same-sex relationships.\u201d I thought, \u201cWell, if that\u2019s true, that\u2019s very interesting.\u201d They gave me a packet of information explaining what the <em>real<\/em> interpretations were. I love packets\u2014right?\u2014so I took that thing back to my room. I remember ripping through it, and it made a lot of sense; it had an internal logic that I could follow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I also thought, \u201cWell, maybe I should look up for myself some of the Bible verses these interpretations are claiming to explain,\u201d\u2014seems like good due diligence. I pull them up on my computer, and then I would compare what I found on my computer to what I saw in the packet, kind of back and forth. Eventually, I was like, \u201cWell, uh-oh; I don\u2019t think this packet is doing as good of a job with this ancient Scripture as it\u2019s claiming to do.\u201d It was difficult for me; because I actually really did <em>want<\/em> to believe what they gave me, but I just couldn\u2019t see it in the texts. I remember throwing the packet away, kind of feeling stupid for having held out belief that it could be real.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt was sometime soon after that I happened to be in the room of one of my friends, who was a non-practicing Catholic. She was getting something out of her room, putting things in bag or whatever. I was standing in her doorway. One of my favorite hobbies is to look at people\u2019s bookshelves and judge them. [Laughter] She had a really nice bookshelf right by her doorframe. I was checking out the titles on that, and I saw a book with the title <em>Mere Christianity<\/em> by C.S. Lewis. Now, I hadn\u2019t been raised on Narnia, so I didn\u2019t fully realize the significance of this book; but the title alone made me want to read it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was also too embarrassed to let my friend know that I was interested, so I just stole the book. [Laughter] It\u2019s not that big; you can put it easily into your bag. I happened to be reading this book one day, in between classes, because it was easier and more interesting than my homework. There wasn\u2019t like\u2014I don\u2019t remember where I was; I don\u2019t remember what chapter or paragraph or anything like that\u2014but while I was reading it one day, I suddenly was overwhelmed with, \u201cOh my goodness, not only does God exist,\u201d\u2014like in a generic, store-brand way\u2014\u201cbut <em>the<\/em> God exists: the God who made me, the God who is transcendent, who is perfect; in fact, actually, the God to whom I\u2019m going to owe an account of my life.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt that moment, all I felt was <em>fear<\/em>; because I knew\u2014I mean, I was arrogant; I was a liar; I was a cheater; I was sexually immoral; I was cruel\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014you were a thief!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>I was reading a stolen book! [Laughter] Yes, exactly! All of the evidence\u2014right?\u2014was pushed firmly into the \u201cGuilty\u201d category. I really felt <em>afraid<\/em>; but at the same time, I also realized\u2014I think the Spirit revealed to me\u2014that part of the reason Jesus had come was to place Himself as a <em>barrier<\/em> between God\u2019s wrath and me and that the only way to be safe was to run <em>towards<\/em> Him, not away from Him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember sitting there, thinking, \u201cWell, I don\u2019t want to become a Christian; that\u2019s really lame!\u201d [Laughter] But at the same time, I was like, \u201cI can\u2019t pretend that this isn\u2019t true just because it\u2019s <em>inconvenient<\/em> for my life. That strikes me as the height of stupidity.\u201d I didn\u2019t have a nice campus minister sitting with me, but I kind of understood that I needed to pray, so I just sort of shut my eyes and said, \u201cFine! I\u2019ll be a Christian!\u201d and then I went to class! You know, that was my introduction. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You know, I\u2019m just wondering if we should change our literature to include that as the prayer: \u201cThis is the prayer you can pray: \u2018Fine; I\u2019ll be a Christian.\u2019\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>A new \u201csinner\u2019s prayer\u201d\u2014right there it is. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>It\u2019s short and sweet.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, it worked for you; didn\u2019t it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>It did work.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>That\u2019s right!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I love your story; I love that Jesus grabbed you and He wooed you to Himself. You\u2019re smart; you\u2019re intelligent, and it was a process that you kind of discovered on your own, through your own search. For me, that says, \u201cGod loves you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think of all of us, as parents, that are so petrified for our kids\u2014and \u201cIf we don\u2019t say the right thing\u2026\u201d and \u201cIf we do say the right thing, and should we act like this?\u201d or \u201c\u2026say this?\u201d and \u201c\u2026go to this church?\u201d and \u201c\u2026go to this camp?\u201d\u2014there are so many things; and yet, when I listen to your story, I think, \u201cThere is a God who loves your child more than you do; and He will go to all costs to find them, to woo them, and to bring them to Himself, even if it\u2019s a prayer like, \u2018Fine! I\u2019ll become a Christian.\u2019\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I would even add this\u2014I think someone listening has felt pursued by God, like Rachel did, and finally gave in. I mean, we\u2019re laughing at the \u201cFine\u201d; but at some point, it\u2019s like: \u201cYou know what? I\u2019m not going to run away anymore. I\u2019m going to follow You and see where that leads.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s interesting\u2014it wasn\u2019t: \u201cI\u2019m going to give up my sexuality,\u201d\u2014it was, \u201cI\u2019m going to follow You, and then let\u2019s see what happens.\u201d We\u2019ll hear the rest of the story.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Let me just say to listeners, you may right now need to pray a prayer that says, \u201cFine!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I kind of like that prayer.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes; it\u2019s a prayer of surrender, which is <em>exactly<\/em> the posture that we need to take when we are surrendering to Jesus and saying: \u201cI\u2019m going to accept what You have made so clear that there\u2019s no escaping it,\u201d and \u201cI\u2019m going to accept it, whatever the cost and whatever the implications.\u201d As we\u2019ll hear, they wind up being significant for Rachel and wind up being significant, really, for all of us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRachel has chronicled her story in a book she\u2019s written called <em>Born Again This Way: Coming Out, Coming to Faith, and What Comes Next<\/em>. We have copies of Rachel\u2019s book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can order it from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get your copy. Again, the title of the book is <em>Born Again This Way<\/em> by Rachel Gilson. Order online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get your copy\u20141-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you are a regular <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listener\u2014somebody who\u2019s been with us for a long time\u2014and have benefited from these conversations every day, we want to ask you this week to consider becoming one of our monthly Legacy Partners. Legacy Partners are those who support the ministry of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> each month with a contribution as a way of ensuring that we can continue, into the future, to provide practical biblical help and hope for marriages and families in your community and all around the world.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve had some friends of the ministry recently, who have come to us and have agreed that, for all new Legacy Partners\u2014those who join with us this week\u2014these friends are going to match every donation you make over the next 12 months, dollar for dollar, up to a total of $25,000. That\u2019s a <em>great<\/em> opportunity for us to add new friends to the ministry, and we\u2019d like to ask <em>you<\/em> to join the team and become a Legacy Partner. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, if you can do that, we\u2019d like to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d by sending you a copy of my book, <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em>, which has just recently been released, a book about \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t1 Corinthians 13 and how those characteristics of love apply in a marriage relationship. We\u2019ll [also] send you three episodes of the new <em>Slugs &amp; Bugs<\/em> TV series for kids\u2014you can share that with your kids or with your grandkids\u2014<em>and<\/em> we\u2019ll send you a gift card, where you can attend a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage getaway as our guests as soon as we are able to get <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> getaways happening again. You\u2019ll have that card to redeem once those getaways are back up and running.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you\u2019re ready to become a <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Legacy Partner, go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, and click where it says, \u201cDonate.\u201d Become a Legacy Partner there, and we\u2019ll send you all of the thank-you gifts as soon as you do. Or you can call and say, \u201cI want to join the team. I want to be a <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Legacy Partner.\u201d The number to call is 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d We look forward to hearing from you. Thanks for considering this, and thanks for becoming a Legacy Partner.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we\u2019re going to talk about the arguments that are being made within the church today about why Christians ought to embrace same-sex marriage. We\u2019ll see what Rachel Gilson has to say about that and how she believes we ought to respond. That comes up tomorrow. I hope you can tune in for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:29:40"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["27.17M"],"filesize_raw":["28489676"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-306353.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-306353.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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Gilson experienced same-sex attraction from an early age, but when she became a Christ-follower as an adult, God began to bring her views about sexuality under the authority of the cross.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-08-26.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Rachel Gilson started experiencing same-sex attraction when she was a teenager and was trying to process what that meant for the rest of her life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>I was pretty eager to get out of my cow town\u2014literally, my high school had a working farm on the campus\u2014I was pretty eager to get to Yale\/to the east coast to be at a place, where I could explore my sexuality more freely\/where I could kind of dive into both that part of my life and big ideas. I think it was a <em>huge<\/em> grace of the Lord to me that He saved me so early in my experience of college so that I actually didn\u2019t have much time to plant my feet there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Wednesday, August 26<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You\u2019ll find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. What was it that caused Rachel Gilson, early in her college career, to reconsider the purpose for her life and her sexuality? We\u2019ll talk with Rachel about that today. Stay with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. Three of us had an opportunity awhile back to be with a group of moms and dads, and we were talking about relationships between parents and adult kids; it was a great interaction that we had. We got to Q&amp;A time at the end\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>That was interesting! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Oh, yes; I know where you\u2019re going now; I remember!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>When you said it was a great conversation, I said, \u201cYes, I agree\u201d; and then, <em>boom<\/em>, the mic opened\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Anytime I\u2019m talking with parents of adult kids or parents of teen kids today, and you say, \u201cOkay, who has a question?\u201d the subject of sexuality, gender, same-sex attraction\u2014if that\u2019s not the first question, it\u2019s because the person was too afraid to ask it first; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>It almost always comes up\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014because parents are looking for answers and help.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes; it was actually a great conversation. The questions were raw; they were real. There were tears from parents that really are grappling with what the society\u2019s grappling with: \u201cWhat do I think?\u201d \u201cWhat do I believe?\u201d \u201cHow do I respond?\u201d \u201cWhat should be my posture?\u201d \u201cHow do I love my child?\u201d Bob had all the right answers, so it was great! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I\u2019m glad he was with us!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, over the years on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, as we\u2019ve talked with different people about this, it\u2019s been clear to us that Jesus\u2014John describes Him this way in John 1:14\u2014was \u201cfull of grace and truth.\u201d Some people come at this issue and say, \u201cI have to be full of truth,\u201d and they closet the grace; and some, \u201cI have to be full of grace,\u201d and they closet the truth. Jesus would not have done that; He would have been full of grace and truth.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s hard for us to figure out, because most of us are going to <em>lean<\/em> in one of those two directions. We\u2019re either going to lean grace or lean truth. We have to figure out: \u201cHow do I be full of that part that I\u2019m not typically going to lean in that direction toward?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have a guest joining us today, who I\u2019m glad to have as a part of this conversation with us. Rachel Gilson is with us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Rachel, welcome.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>I\u2019m glad to be here, and I just want to amen everything in that intro right there. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> We\u2019re excited that you\u2019re with us, Rachel.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Rachel helps give theological direction to all of us, who are a part of the staff of Cru<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. You\u2019ve been on Cru staff how long?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>I joined in 2011, which was right when the name changed from Campus Crusade for Christ<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> to Cru, so all the swag we got was immediately vintage. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Rachel has just written a book that is part memoir and part coaching manual. I mean, I really think it provides <em>both<\/em> of these functions for us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes, it does.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>It\u2019s a book called <em>Born Again This Way<\/em>. I\u2019m imagining some of our listeners don\u2019t catch the hip pop culture reference that she makes in the title, but we should start there. Tell everybody who doesn\u2019t get it why you picked that name.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>Wildly popular performer Lady Gaga released a song\u2014I don\u2019t know how many years ago\u2014<em>Born This Way<\/em>. It\u2019s kind of an anthem celebrating that, \u201cHey, however you were born,\u201d\u2014and particularly in view were LGBT attractions\u2014\u201cthat is what you should celebrate; that is what you should lean into.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy experience has been someone who experienced same-sex attraction but is a disciple of Christ. My whole life in Jesus has been figuring out, \u201cWhat is the relationship between my desires and the God who loves me?\u201d Primary in my life is being born again.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yet, Rachel, you didn\u2019t grow up in a Christian home. Share with us a little bit about your story of growing up.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>I grew up in Southern California in a very non-religious household, actually. Even though the people around me were very church-going, my family\u2014we weren\u2019t even Christmas and Easter people\u2014we just sort of did whatever. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBy the time I got to high school, I was really interested in big ideas; but as I tried to talk to the kids around me, who identified as Christian, about big ideas, they just didn\u2019t seem to have the kind of answers I was looking for. I kind of brushed Christianity off, by the end of high school, as a place people went to when they didn\u2019t know how to think for themselves\/somewhat of a crutch. I\u2019ve since discovered that Christianity is actually the greatest intellectual tradition that\u2019s ever hit the planet, but I didn\u2019t quite have a view of that as a teenage girl. I was pretty hardened in my atheism by the time I was going off to college.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAlso, in high school, I realized that my sexuality felt so much more at home with other young women. My other understanding of Christianity was: \u201cThis is full of people, who don\u2019t like people with my sexuality.\u201d I found this, even though I had never been mistreated by the church or by any Christians, it was just sort of an attitude I picked up. By the time I was going into college, I thought, \u201cChristians are stupid, and Christians are bigots. Goodness, who wants to be associated with stupid bigots?\u201d\u2014you know?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Let me back up to the first time you had some sense that maybe your way of perceiving attraction was different than your peer group.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>I happened to meet a girl in high school. She was a senior; I was a sophomore; we were in the same AP European history class. Really, she just wanted to use to me to help study for a test. Because I was a nerd, I was focused; she was a senior, easy-breezy. She invited me over to her house. I knew it was opportunistic, right? I knew she didn\u2019t want to be my friend; she just wanted to study with me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut you know, when you\u2019re a sophomore, you want to hang out with the seniors; that\u2019s pretty cool. When I was spending time with her, helping prepare for that test, there was just sort of this moment I was with her; we ended up mostly talking all night instead of studying; who\u2019s surprised? I remember it was almost like a little click in my heart, where I thought, \u201cWait a minute; I really like her. Wait a minute; do I like <em>like<\/em> her?\u201d\u2014very technical terms, of course. I couldn\u2019t quite shake that maybe this feeling matched how my peers actually described feeling about boys. I spent about a week kind of processing: \u201cIs this allowed? Is this okay? I do think that\u2019s how I feel, but it doesn\u2019t seem like it\u2019s right.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis was back when <em>Will &amp; Grace<\/em> was still edgy, not nostalgic\u2014you know\u2014this is 2001. But I remember sort of digging through my junk drawer of morality available, and I couldn\u2019t find any possible reason why this wouldn\u2019t be okay; right? Way before the phrase \u201cLove is love\u201d became culturally popular, it was where I landed. I thought, \u201cWell, it\u2019s not hurting anybody\u201d; so I decided to just go all in. As I gained romantic and sexual experiences with other young women, I thought, \u201cOh yes; this is definitely my home.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>When you go back now, and try to deconstruct what was going on in Rachel\u2019s heart and life, as a high school student, were you culturally influenced\/were you hormonally influenced? Was it biology?\u2014was it nature\/nurture? What\u2019s your sense of what was going on then?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>You know, on some level, so much of my focus in discipleship hasn\u2019t been on interrogating where the feelings have come from but rather what my faithful <em>response<\/em> to them should be that I don\u2019t know that I\u2019ve even considered that it matters very much. Maybe it was cultural\/maybe it was biological; but at the end of the day, either way, I have a responsibility to say \u201cNo,\u201d to temptation to sin and to say \u201cYes,\u201d to Christ.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt the time, when I was discovering this about myself, it wasn\u2019t yet culturally cool in the way that it is now. It\u2019s actually amazing to me how much this has turned the corner in \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t20 years\/15 years. But I do think it\u2019s something we strongly need to consider as we disciple our children, both the ones that live in our household and just the children with us in church\u2014to think really critically, with a biblical worldview that looks at some of the things they\u2019re seeing in the outside world with an eye of skepticism; right?\u2014like: \u201cWell, what does make someone special?\u201d \u201cHow do I tell right from wrong?\u201d \u201cCrucially, where are we supposed to go to understand our own feelings and whether or not we should listen to them?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I think that believers that are walking with Jesus\u2014that are raising young kids\u2014are sometimes confused about how to communicate these kinds of things to their kids. What do you think? As you\u2019ve walked this path\u2014and you\u2019re married now\u2014how would you instruct them\/what would you say?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>I think it\u2019s a really important question. I have a six-year-old right now, so\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014so you\u2019re there!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>I\u2019m there, but it also means I\u2019m also <em>not<\/em> there. I\u2019ve never tried to parent a 14-year-old or parent a 24-year-old; I\u2019ve only parented up to a six-year-old. But it is <em>very<\/em> much on my mind.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think one of the reasons that parents are feeling so unprepared is that the church, for the past 50 years, has almost been accidentally in agreement with God\u2019s doctrine. It\u2019s been very much instinctual that marriage is male and female, so we haven\u2019t had to dig into our own texts\/our own Scriptures to find: \u201c<em>Why<\/em> is it male\/female?\u201d It just seemed obvious. Now that we\u2019re getting a lot of pressure to explain why we think what we think, if the parents haven\u2019t been catechized in a positive view of God\u2019s vision for sexuality, then how in the world are they going to be able to pass that on to their children?\u2014right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDisney movies and the church have both told us that marriage is really about marrying your best friend, having great sex, and maybe kids if you can afford them; right? Two men can do all those things; two women can do all those things. If that\u2019s all marriage is, then no wonder we felt flat-footed when trying to explain to our children why people of the same sex can\u2019t have that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut when we go back to the Scriptures, we actually find a more robust picture of why marriage exists and what the elements need to be to fulfill that vision that God\u2019s created it for.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>As you go back to, you know, you as a high school girl, walking through this journey, I\u2019m guessing the Scriptures weren\u2019t something you were looking at, at that time; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>Oh, certainly not!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>You\u2019re living out your life. Are you at a point, as you reflect back, was this something that was like, \u201cWow! I\u2019m going to celebrate this; this is wonderful!\u201d\u2014was there the opposite or was it somewhere in between\u2014like, \u201cI need to hide this\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>I never \u201clived in the closet\u201d\u2014would be the phrase\u2014I never hid it; but I was pretty eager to get out of my cow town\u2014literally, my high school had a working farm on the campus\u2014I was pretty eager to get to Yale\/to the east coast to be at a place, where I could explore my sexuality more freely\/where I could kind of dive into both that part of my life and big ideas.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think it was a <em>huge<\/em> grace of the Lord to me that He saved me so early in my experience of college, so that I actually didn\u2019t have much time to plant my feet there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Talk about that. You get to Yale; how did that happen? What happened?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>On the one hand, I thought very highly of my intellectual prowess; and then I showed up at Yale and realized, \u201cUh-oh, I\u2019m not the smartest person in the world!\u201d That kind of sent one pillar of my identity crumbling.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnother thing that happened, early on at Yale, was that the girl I was dating at the time broke up with me. I ended up in a little bit of a pit of an identity crisis. You know, I was kind of tossing around for: \u201cWho am I? If I don\u2019t have her\/if I don\u2019t have my academic excellence, who am I?\u201d It wasn\u2019t like, \u201cOh, I\u2019m going to turn to Jesus,\u201d because I didn\u2019t believe in Jesus. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI happened to be in a lecture. I was taking a course of study through the Western canon\u2014it was a philosophy class\u2014and early in the spring semester, we were having a lecture on Rene Descartes\u2014you know, the old dead European, who invented the phrase, \u201cI think, therefore I am.\u201d From that phrase, he invents this whole proof for the existence of God. I remember sitting in the audience, thinking, \u201cThat\u2019s a really stupid proof for the existence of God,\u201d which I still think. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut while I was sitting in the audience, I remember thinking, \u201cWell, what if there are better proofs for the existence of God? This one\u2019s not very compelling, but there might be something better.\u201d I sort of immediately tensed up, like: \u201cNo, no. That\u2019s not what we think about; that\u2019s for stupid bigots\u201d; you know? It was just like, \u201cWe\u2019re not going to go there.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut once the can had been opened in my mind, I kind of couldn\u2019t shake it. I remember\u2014you know, I\u2019m a good Millennial\u2014so I went back to my room and I would just Google<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> religious search terms over and over again. [Laughter] Again and again, I kept coming back to reading about the person of Jesus, and He was so much more interesting than I had thought.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Had you ever read the Bible before?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>I had occasionally read some sections of the Bible, like when I was in hotel rooms. I would love the Gideon Bibles; I would open them up and read the KJV language sometimes. But this was the first time I was really reading it for myself with interest. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I immediately felt a type of barrier; I was like, \u201cWell, I\u2019m going to marry a woman someday. Even if I wanted Jesus, this is categorically not for me.\u201d The only two people I knew at Yale, who identified as Christians, were these two women who were dating each other; so I thought, \u201cMaybe they can shed some light on this for me. Maybe they can explain something.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI went to them as if by night\u2014right?\u2014kind of trembling, like, \u201cHow do you reconcile all these things?\u201d They were sweet girls. I remember them saying, \u201cOh, it\u2019s all been a big misunderstanding! That\u2019s not actually what the Bible <em>really<\/em> says. The Bible actually supports monogamous same-sex relationships.\u201d I thought, \u201cWell, if that\u2019s true, that\u2019s very interesting.\u201d They gave me a packet of information explaining what the <em>real<\/em> interpretations were. I love packets\u2014right?\u2014so I took that thing back to my room. I remember ripping through it, and it made a lot of sense; it had an internal logic that I could follow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I also thought, \u201cWell, maybe I should look up for myself some of the Bible verses these interpretations are claiming to explain,\u201d\u2014seems like good due diligence. I pull them up on my computer, and then I would compare what I found on my computer to what I saw in the packet, kind of back and forth. Eventually, I was like, \u201cWell, uh-oh; I don\u2019t think this packet is doing as good of a job with this ancient Scripture as it\u2019s claiming to do.\u201d It was difficult for me; because I actually really did <em>want<\/em> to believe what they gave me, but I just couldn\u2019t see it in the texts. I remember throwing the packet away, kind of feeling stupid for having held out belief that it could be real.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt was sometime soon after that I happened to be in the room of one of my friends, who was a non-practicing Catholic. She was getting something out of her room, putting things in bag or whatever. I was standing in her doorway. One of my favorite hobbies is to look at people\u2019s bookshelves and judge them. [Laughter] She had a really nice bookshelf right by her doorframe. I was checking out the titles on that, and I saw a book with the title <em>Mere Christianity<\/em> by C.S. Lewis. Now, I hadn\u2019t been raised on Narnia, so I didn\u2019t fully realize the significance of this book; but the title alone made me want to read it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was also too embarrassed to let my friend know that I was interested, so I just stole the book. [Laughter] It\u2019s not that big; you can put it easily into your bag. I happened to be reading this book one day, in between classes, because it was easier and more interesting than my homework. There wasn\u2019t like\u2014I don\u2019t remember where I was; I don\u2019t remember what chapter or paragraph or anything like that\u2014but while I was reading it one day, I suddenly was overwhelmed with, \u201cOh my goodness, not only does God exist,\u201d\u2014like in a generic, store-brand way\u2014\u201cbut <em>the<\/em> God exists: the God who made me, the God who is transcendent, who is perfect; in fact, actually, the God to whom I\u2019m going to owe an account of my life.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt that moment, all I felt was <em>fear<\/em>; because I knew\u2014I mean, I was arrogant; I was a liar; I was a cheater; I was sexually immoral; I was cruel\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014you were a thief!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>I was reading a stolen book! [Laughter] Yes, exactly! All of the evidence\u2014right?\u2014was pushed firmly into the \u201cGuilty\u201d category. I really felt <em>afraid<\/em>; but at the same time, I also realized\u2014I think the Spirit revealed to me\u2014that part of the reason Jesus had come was to place Himself as a <em>barrier<\/em> between God\u2019s wrath and me and that the only way to be safe was to run <em>towards<\/em> Him, not away from Him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember sitting there, thinking, \u201cWell, I don\u2019t want to become a Christian; that\u2019s really lame!\u201d [Laughter] But at the same time, I was like, \u201cI can\u2019t pretend that this isn\u2019t true just because it\u2019s <em>inconvenient<\/em> for my life. That strikes me as the height of stupidity.\u201d I didn\u2019t have a nice campus minister sitting with me, but I kind of understood that I needed to pray, so I just sort of shut my eyes and said, \u201cFine! I\u2019ll be a Christian!\u201d and then I went to class! You know, that was my introduction. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You know, I\u2019m just wondering if we should change our literature to include that as the prayer: \u201cThis is the prayer you can pray: \u2018Fine; I\u2019ll be a Christian.\u2019\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>A new \u201csinner\u2019s prayer\u201d\u2014right there it is. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>It\u2019s short and sweet.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, it worked for you; didn\u2019t it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>It did work.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rachel: <\/strong>That\u2019s right!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I love your story; I love that Jesus grabbed you and He wooed you to Himself. You\u2019re smart; you\u2019re intelligent, and it was a process that you kind of discovered on your own, through your own search. For me, that says, \u201cGod loves you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think of all of us, as parents, that are so petrified for our kids\u2014and \u201cIf we don\u2019t say the right thing\u2026\u201d and \u201cIf we do say the right thing, and should we act like this?\u201d or \u201c\u2026say this?\u201d and \u201c\u2026go to this church?\u201d and \u201c\u2026go to this camp?\u201d\u2014there are so many things; and yet, when I listen to your story, I think, \u201cThere is a God who loves your child more than you do; and He will go to all costs to find them, to woo them, and to bring them to Himself, even if it\u2019s a prayer like, \u2018Fine! I\u2019ll become a Christian.\u2019\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I would even add this\u2014I think someone listening has felt pursued by God, like Rachel did, and finally gave in. I mean, we\u2019re laughing at the \u201cFine\u201d; but at some point, it\u2019s like: \u201cYou know what? I\u2019m not going to run away anymore. I\u2019m going to follow You and see where that leads.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s interesting\u2014it wasn\u2019t: \u201cI\u2019m going to give up my sexuality,\u201d\u2014it was, \u201cI\u2019m going to follow You, and then let\u2019s see what happens.\u201d We\u2019ll hear the rest of the story.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Let me just say to listeners, you may right now need to pray a prayer that says, \u201cFine!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I kind of like that prayer.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes; it\u2019s a prayer of surrender, which is <em>exactly<\/em> the posture that we need to take when we are surrendering to Jesus and saying: \u201cI\u2019m going to accept what You have made so clear that there\u2019s no escaping it,\u201d and \u201cI\u2019m going to accept it, whatever the cost and whatever the implications.\u201d As we\u2019ll hear, they wind up being significant for Rachel and wind up being significant, really, for all of us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRachel has chronicled her story in a book she\u2019s written called <em>Born Again This Way: Coming Out, Coming to Faith, and What Comes Next<\/em>. We have copies of Rachel\u2019s book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can order it from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get your copy. Again, the title of the book is <em>Born Again This Way<\/em> by Rachel Gilson. Order online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get your copy\u20141-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you are a regular <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listener\u2014somebody who\u2019s been with us for a long time\u2014and have benefited from these conversations every day, we want to ask you this week to consider becoming one of our monthly Legacy Partners. Legacy Partners are those who support the ministry of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> each month with a contribution as a way of ensuring that we can continue, into the future, to provide practical biblical help and hope for marriages and families in your community and all around the world.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve had some friends of the ministry recently, who have come to us and have agreed that, for all new Legacy Partners\u2014those who join with us this week\u2014these friends are going to match every donation you make over the next 12 months, dollar for dollar, up to a total of $25,000. That\u2019s a <em>great<\/em> opportunity for us to add new friends to the ministry, and we\u2019d like to ask <em>you<\/em> to join the team and become a Legacy Partner. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, if you can do that, we\u2019d like to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d by sending you a copy of my book, <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em>, which has just recently been released, a book about \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t1 Corinthians 13 and how those characteristics of love apply in a marriage relationship. We\u2019ll [also] send you three episodes of the new <em>Slugs &amp; Bugs<\/em> TV series for kids\u2014you can share that with your kids or with your grandkids\u2014<em>and<\/em> we\u2019ll send you a gift card, where you can attend a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage getaway as our guests as soon as we are able to get <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> getaways happening again. You\u2019ll have that card to redeem once those getaways are back up and running.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you\u2019re ready to become a <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Legacy Partner, go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, and click where it says, \u201cDonate.\u201d Become a Legacy Partner there, and we\u2019ll send you all of the thank-you gifts as soon as you do. Or you can call and say, \u201cI want to join the team. I want to be a <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Legacy Partner.\u201d The number to call is 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d We look forward to hearing from you. Thanks for considering this, and thanks for becoming a Legacy Partner.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we\u2019re going to talk about the arguments that are being made within the church today about why Christians ought to embrace same-sex marriage. We\u2019ll see what Rachel Gilson has to say about that and how she believes we ought to respond. That comes up tomorrow. I hope you can tune in for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. 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