{"id":306225,"date":"2020-07-02T07:00:04","date_gmt":"2020-07-02T11:00:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/comfort-through-the-valley\/"},"modified":"2025-05-13T16:42:00","modified_gmt":"2025-05-13T20:42:00","slug":"comfort-through-the-valley","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/comfort-through-the-valley\/","title":{"rendered":"Comfort Through the Valley"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Guest: Matthew Arbo | Series: Walking Through Infertility | Ethics professor Matthew Arbo tackles the tough topic of infertility. Arbo&#8217;s heart for this issue was born out of a personal story, having witnessed his brother and sister-in-law&#8217;s struggle with infertility, and he has seen the pain this causes couples. Arbo offers words of comfort to those who long for a child.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Matthew Arbo tackles the tough topic of infertility. Arbo offers words of comfort to those who long for a child.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-07-02.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:28:55","filesize":"26.48M","filesize_raw":"27764455","date_recorded":"2020-07-02 07:00:04","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2860,2845,2879],"tags":[4646],"podcast_series":[7278],"cwp_profile":[8871],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-306225","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-hardship-and-suffering","category-loss-of-a-child-life-issues","category-loss-of-a-child","tag-infertility","podcast_series-walking-through-infertility","cwp_profile-matthew-arbo","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/306225\/comfort-through-the-valley","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/306225\/comfort-through-the-valley","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"6ySWgdcN64\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/comfort-through-the-valley\/\">Comfort Through the Valley<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/comfort-through-the-valley\/embed\/#?secret=6ySWgdcN64\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Comfort Through the Valley&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"6ySWgdcN64\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-07-02.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-07-02.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>When couples are experiencing infertility, there is often stress and strain on their own relationship. Matthew Arbo says part of the reason for that is because it\u2019s natural for us to look around, to ask who to blame for the struggle we\u2019re experiencing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong><a id=\"_Hlk3372676\"><\/a>We want that. We want to explain it\u2014somebody\u2019s responsible. Where are we going to fix responsibility? We have some sense of release\u2014right?\u2014sort of catharsis\/bizarre catharsis that comes from blaming someone. Then both end up retreating themselves; the communication channels breaks down\u2014the marriage just implodes. If it happens that, say, the clinician discovers that it\u2019s attributable one way or another, then that adds further problem; because then \u201cWe <em>know<\/em> what the problem is\u2014the source of the problem,\u201d and <em>that<\/em> becomes the subject.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, July 2<sup>nd<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. How can husbands and wives come together and pursue oneness with each another in the midst of a struggle like infertility? We\u2019re going to talk more about that today. Stay with us.<\/p>\n<p>And welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I don\u2019t think I realized this, when we first got married, but Mary Ann wanted to be a mom pretty quick. <a id=\"_Hlk3211904\"><\/a>Again, I don\u2019t think I knew it when we first got married; I don\u2019t think I knew it when she was wanting it. Except, I do remember\u2014we got married it 1979, and we did not have our first child until 1981. Most people will go, \u201cWell, that\u2019s a good gap.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But there was a trip we were on\u2014we were driving from Tulsa to Kansas City\u2014and she was crying on the trip. She was saying, \u201cI don\u2019t understand why God would give me the desire to want to be a mom and why we can\u2019t conceive.\u201d I was a young, dumb husband\u2014like, \u201cWell, you know, It will happen,\u201d\u2014or whatever. I mean, I was in no rush\/no hurry, but this was an ache in her heart that took me a little bit by surprise. We were, ultimately, able to conceive; then we had what was called secondary infertility; which is, after conceiving, we had a long period where we were not able to conceive again. We went through the same kind of pain that she was feeling, wanting to be a mom for a second time.<\/p>\n<p>People look at us\u2014we\u2019ve got five kids\u2014and they go, \u201cWell, you didn\u2019t have any issues with infertility.\u201d But more couples than you know are struggling with the heartache of wanting to be parents and, for whatever reason, God has not opened the door for that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>I think most of us have a story like that\u2014maybe, it\u2019s not us\u2014but it is someone we know. I know for Dave and me\u2014it was with our son and his wife. We were <em>so<\/em> excited when they told us they were pregnant. I mean, it was a <em>big<\/em> deal; wasn\u2019t it? Then they miscarried, and then they miscarried <em>again<\/em>. By the third time, you begin to lose hope; and you\u2019re so fearful, that you\u2019re not sure how to respond.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>I\u2019m not sure I\u2019ve ever seen the depth of pain\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014and despair.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014watching your son and daughter-in-law go through, from a distance; and yet, it\u2019s your family. Oh, man! You talk about the topic we\u2019re talking about today\u2014it\u2019s <em>real<\/em>; it\u2019s hard!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>We\u2019ve got somebody here to help us walk through the issues of infertility. In fact, that\u2019s the name of the book he\u2019s written\u2014it\u2019s called, <em>Walking Through Infertility<\/em>. Matthew Arbo joins us.<\/p>\n<p>Matthew, welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>Thanks for having me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Matthew is a professor. He teaches at Oklahoma Baptist University in Shawnee, Oklahoma. He teaches\u2014what is it?\u2014ethics?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>Yes; Christian ethics.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>And are they paying attention?\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>[Hesitates] Sometimes. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014I mean, as you bring up ethical issues; because you are talking about very real, very contemporary issues. Are a lot of these kids locking on and going, \u201cWe need to think about these things\u201d?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>Yes; they are very interested.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes; I would\u2014I would think, if I\u2019m a college student, that would be one of the classes I would sign up for. I mean, that sounds like fireworks and \u201cWe\u2019re going to discuss; and we\u2019re going to have different opinions, and there\u2019s going to be tension.\u201d Is that true in your room?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>Yes; it\u2019s like that; yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>And Matthew, you\u2019re younger\u2014as far as a college professor\u2014I bet students really love that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>Yes, I think so.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, on the subject of infertility\u2014interesting\u2014given the fact that you could be writing on all kinds on social, cultural, philosophical issues, this is the one you locked onto to write this book. Part of that is out of a personal story, not for you and your wife, but with your brother; right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>Yes; that\u2019s right. My younger brother and his wife were infertile for a number of years. That was a difficult time for them. We didn\u2019t, then, really know what to say or what to do. You want to do something; you want to say what they need to hear. There\u2019s really very little you can do or say that lives up to the moment; because you\u2019re not with them when they turn the lights out, and they\u2019re lying in bed, and those thoughts just come flooding in. Or when they're at the grocery store and they hear a child cry or laugh on the other aisle. These sort of tangible moments. You can't be there for those.<\/p>\n<p>But you can listen\u2014and that\u2019s what we learned to do, I think\u2014learn how to listen\/how to forbear; learn how to be patient with them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>How did you even become aware that they were wrestling with infertility?\u2014because it\u2019s not the kind of thing that people wear a badge, saying, \u201cWe\u2019re infertile.\u201d Somebody that\u2019s been married two or three years\u2014you don\u2019t know whether they\u2019re childless by choice or whether they\u2019re going through infertility.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>That\u2019s exactly right. That\u2019s one of the common experiences\u2014it\u2019s undiscussed; it\u2019s un-talked about\u2014for some very obvious reasons, which some parts of our life we just keep private\u2014we don\u2019t want to talk about that. But there\u2019s also stigma\/cultural stigma associated with it. Some don\u2019t want to\u2014they don\u2019t want to talk about that out loud; they\u2019re more private.<\/p>\n<p>But with my brother, we are very close; so he was open. He told me what was going on, in what ways he could. I cried with him; I prayed with him. He was pretty communicative; I didn\u2019t have to draw him out so much. He\u2019s usually kind of a heart-on-the-sleeve kind of guy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>What was the next step?\u2014because to write a book, you have to be <em>passionate<\/em>; because it takes work, and effort, and research. So what happened in you that made you think, \u201cI need to write this\u201d?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>It really\u2014actually, it was a conversation with a former pastor of mine in Kansas City. He had explained to me that there were some couples in our church that were experiencing infertility; and there\u2019s not a lot\u2014at the time\u2014not a lot of great stuff out there. He didn\u2019t know what to give them. He was asking me about that.<\/p>\n<p>I started thinking: \u201cYou know, I\u2019ve had this personal story with my brother,\u201d and \u201cI know some of these people we\u2019re talking about,\u201d and \u201cWhat could I say in words?\u201d I'm sometimes not so great in personal conversation, in what I want to say and things come to me. But, when I get writing, it slows me down and I can say something that I really feel like I can say the right thing.<\/p>\n<p>That got me thinking about a little book like this, where I just give a sense of the shape. Also, a big part of it sort of help those\u2014particularly the couples that are going through it\u2014the book would help enlarge their world a little bit. It's just so totalizing\u2014the experience\u2014when you're in it, is just so totalizing. It sort of takes up all the oxygen in that period of life.<\/p>\n<p>What I wanted to do in the book was just help give a bigger picture.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>Tell me this. Go back to when your brother has that initial conversation, where\u2014obviously, you can probably sense, he\u2019s unveiling something that\u2019s, oftentimes, kept a secret\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014he doesn\u2019t share. He shares it with you. What\u2019s the emotion in the room? What did <em>you<\/em> feel?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew:<\/strong> I felt sad for him; I felt powerless: \u201cThere\u2019s nothing I can <em>do<\/em>.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>Did you have any kids at the time?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>Not yet; not yet\u2014but very soon\u2014and that became something, too, when we conceived. I sort of made a special slot to talk to him on the phone to tell him what was going on. He was so happy for us, of course; but I wanted to be sensitive to what they\u2019re going through. The feeling, even though their on the telephone\u2014we\u2019re not close to each other\u2014there\u2019s still the pauses and the strain that comes up in a conversation like that. I just <em>felt<\/em> for him.<\/p>\n<p>We have the desires for children and they're <em>deep<\/em>. They're deep and they almost feel biological\u2014they're just part of us\u2014these wants. So it's really hard to be with someone, knowing there's little you can do, except be present.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019m thinking about the number of the times I\u2019ve talked to young couples\u2014maybe they\u2019ve been married three or four years; no kids showing up. In the back of my mind, I\u2019m thinking, \u201cSo what\u2019s going on here?\u201d My wife will nudge me and say, \u201c<em>Don\u2019t ask<\/em> what\u2019s going on.\u201d I\u2019m thinking: \u201cNo! I want to know. If they are struggling, I want to struggle with them; if they\u2019re not, I want to nudge them and say, \u2018Let\u2019s get on with the show and have some kids here!\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>The truth is\u2014Bob\u2019s nosy\u2014that\u2019s it! [Laughter] He wants to stick his nose in <em>your<\/em> business. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>I call it: \u201cIntentionally intrusive\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>There you go!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cbut with a redemptive purpose attached to it\u201d; okay? Is that better than nosy?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>Ah, that\u2019s the same thing. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>In terms of posture\u2014for those of us who may know couples\u2014and we don\u2019t know whether they\u2019re dealing with infertility; we don\u2019t whether they\u2019re childless by choice\u2014we don\u2019t know the dynamics. Do we just keep our mouths shut?\u2014or do we say something?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>That\u2019s a <em>great<\/em> question. I think, if there is a sufficient level of trust and rapport, where a question like that could be received\u2014you know, in kind of a jocular way and the venue is right\u2014absolutely. But if it\u2019s more public and the rapport is not there\u2014couples who are experiencing prolonged infertility\u2014to ask that [of them]\u2014it\u2019s deeply wounding, [from] those of who have talked to me about that.<\/p>\n<p>People mean well. Folks at church asking, \u201cWhen are you guys going to have a family?\u201d \u201cWhen are you\u2026?\u201d; you know. Or grandparents, you know, eager to be grandparents. The couple\u2014it's not from lack of trying; they just can't. That's itself, wounding. There's a recognition now; it's not just our own problem\u2014right?\u2014our own recognition; but now, <em>others<\/em> see that we don't have children.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>And you said there\u2019s some shame attached to it in the hearts of people, who are trying to conceive and can\u2019t\u2014they feel like there is something wrong with them?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew:<\/strong> That\u2019s very regularly the case\u2014so common; it\u2019s ubiquitous: \u201cWell, I\u2019m a human being; and one thing human beings seem to be good at is reproducing.\u201d They don\u2019t have to be told much about that: \u201cWe can do that.\u201d When we\u2019re <em>not<\/em> able to do that, it seems like some sort of biological failure. We know, medically and scientifically now, lots of reasons why a couple can\u2019t conceive or have trouble; but from that person\u2019s point of view, it feels like a failure. And it feels like you are not able to do the basic thing human beings have been doing, successfully, for millennium.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>You also wrote in the book a little bit about: \u201cOkay; if I\u2019m a Christ-follower,\u201d\u2014this could be for a non-Christ-follower as well\u2014there\u2019s even a sense of \u201cGod betraying me,\u201d\u2014almost, punishment: \u201cWhat have I done wrong?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>That was what Mary Ann was saying, \u201cIf I\u2019m trying to play by the rules, here\u2014trying to do what God wants\u2014why would He withhold from me what is a blessing for so many?\u2014and what\u2019s the longing of my heart?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>And I would think there would be real introspection then\u2014like: \u201cWhat\u2019s wrong with me, God? Is there something wrong? Have I done something? Is this because of my past?\u201d There\u2019s probably a lot of questioning going on.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>What do you do with somebody like that who\u2019s feeling that way? How do you help them recognize that we live in a fallen world, but this doesn\u2019t mean you are a worthless or a broken person?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>Yes; one of the first things I say\u2014as sincerely as I can\/I mean it\u2014is: \u201cI\u2019m <em>so<\/em> sorry you\u2019re having to go through that,\u201d\u2014to just tell them that. \u201cIt\u2019s hard,\u201d and to let them know that \u201cI can see, in what ways that I can, that it\u2019s hard.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014and not give any answers?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew:<\/strong> Initially; yes, that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>Yes; to not feel like I\u2019ve got an arsenal of possibilities for them and that I can fix it. They very likely\u2014if they\u2019ve come to this point in telling me, they\u2019ve talked to people\u2014they\u2019ve seen clinicians; they\u2019ve taken steps. I\u2018m not going to tell them anything they haven\u2019t heard, but one thing that, maybe, they are lacking in is someone being present with them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>What does that look like to be present; you know?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>In practice, it can be something like\u2014maybe getting the guy, and just having some direct conversation\/direct questions: \u201cHow are you doing? What\u2019s going on?\u201d Then let it just\u2014drawing them out, so they don\u2019t have to shelter under that experience and the weight of it by themselves.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ve talked to pastors a lot about this\/we talk to our elders about this\u2014about how to just be <em>with<\/em> people\u2014it takes just sticking to it. One of the things we want to do is fix and want to have the tools for fixing. But in this case, like the best thing you can do is just listen sometimes\u2014just listen to someone grieve, aloud, about their miscarriage.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>The thing that struck me, as I read through your book\u2014you just talked about the present part\u2014but let me go back to the first thing that struck me, earlier, was the things <em>not<\/em> to say. Seriously, you mention many different pat answers\u2014I think I've said them at times\u2014and how harmful they can be. Talk about that a little bit. What <em>don\u2019t<\/em> you say to somebody that is really struggling?\u2014it might not be just be infertility\u2014but definitely this topic as well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>Yes; I mean, \u201cGod has a plan for you,\u201d\u2014which, of course, is true\u2014a person of faith\/he\u2019s following Jesus I think believes that God has a plan for them. The question kind of, as we started with the story at the beginning is, it\u2019s not they don\u2019t realize this; it\u2019s just disjunction\u2014right?\u2014and it\u2019s trying to interpret what this disjunction means: \u201cGod <em>loves<\/em> me. God wants this thing for me. I have this thing that I want, and it\u2019s not happening,\u201d and \u201cI can\u2019t <em>make<\/em> it happen on my own resolve here.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s one thing\u2014that God\u2019s got a plan\u2014of course, He does; but let\u2019s not use that as a way of explaining away the deep difficulty\/your grief that someone would feel.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Don\u2019t pull out Romans 8:28 out of your pocket and say, you know, \u201cGod causes all things to work for good.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>That\u2019s exactly right! That\u2019s exactly right. Or to say something like, you know, \u201cYou must have unrepentant sin,\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Oh, boy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>\u2014or something similar.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>Oh! That\u2019s a good one\u2014wow! [Said with disbelief]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>I mean, I\u2019ve heard some <em>horror<\/em> stories of what individuals have been told by folks, who think they have some answer or platitude.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>There\u2019s a strain of thinking that says, \u201cIt must be a faith issue with you\u201d; right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew:<\/strong> It\u2019s totally understandable why\u2014why this happened. You can see why\u2014in a moment of difficulty and disclosure, not really having the emotional or maybe spiritual ability, in the moment\u2014right?\u2014to just say, or not say\u2014right?\u2014<em>nothing<\/em>. And just say, \u201cI\u2019m <em>so<\/em> sorry.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>I was going to ask that. If I\u2019m that person, receiving that news and I feel so awkward: \u201cI don\u2019t know what to say.\u201d You would say: \u201cOne of the things is don\u2019t say anything. You <em>don\u2019t<\/em> need to give an answer or a response. Just <em>be<\/em> there.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Did you, with your daughter-in-law\u2014when they were going through infertility and miscarriages\u2014I know you said, \u201cI\u2019m so sorry,\u201d\u2014beyond that, how did you try to interact with her, and minister to her, and help her?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think one of things Dave and I did was\u2014we said: \u201cHow can we pray for you?\u201d \u201cHow can we help you?\u201d \u201cHow can we be there for you?\u201d\u2014just asking those questions. Honestly, there is such a helpless feeling when you\u2019re on the outside; and there\u2019s an awkwardness, too, of not knowing: \u201cIs this the right thing?\u201d and \u201cI don\u2019t want to hurt you more.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I thought it was really sweet that they would\u2014like Austin and Kendall even asked me to just come in and just cook\/clean. It\u2019s almost like so they could grieve. They\u2019re not only grieving the present, but they\u2019re grieving of what <em>may not<\/em> happen\u2014their hopes and their dreams. Just to give them that space but, also, to be right there in case we could do anything.<\/p>\n<p>I think that prayer thing is a big deal; because we were <em>so consistent<\/em> in seeking God, and asking God; and isn\u2019t this the Bible? Think of all the women in the Bible that could not conceive\u2014and then, it was even more of a stigma in that era; but it still is\u2014it\u2019s still very, very hard and very difficult. We\u2019ve even seen circumstances, where the marriage is lost because of it; because there is so much emotion\/there\u2019s so much pain; that if you don\u2019t bring that together, it can really tear you apart.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>On that latter point, one very common experience for couples who go through infertility is to see marital strain very quickly and blaming. Blaming is corrosive to any relationship.<\/p>\n<p>We want that; we want to explain it. Where are we going to fix responsibility? We have some sense of release\u2014right?\u2014some sort of catharsis\/bizarre catharsis that comes from blaming someone, but the marriage just implodes; then both end up retreating, themselves; communication channels break down.<\/p>\n<p>I think couples deeply want to be heard by each other in earnest, truthful ways. With this particular subject\u2014because it\u2019s so deeply felt, personally\u2014if it happens that say, the clinician discovers that it\u2019s attributable one way or another, then, that adds further problem; because then we <em>know<\/em> what the problem is\u2014the source of the problem\u2014and <em>that<\/em> becomes the subject.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>Something that hit me, when I was reading the book, was in the back\u2014when you interview your brother with these great questions\u2014you\u2019re walking through it. It\u2019s really helpful for the reader\u2014because like: \u201cHow do I respond?\u201d You ask all the questions that need to be asked. You realize, \u201cOh, this story that\u2019s in the book\u2014this fictional couple\u2014is a real couple.\u201d It\u2019s really personal to you, because it\u2019s your brother.<\/p>\n<p>One of the things that I found very profound was\u2014you discover in these questions\u2014they actually did get pregnant [pause] and have a stillbirth. It\u2019s <em>horrific<\/em>; because now, hope finally\u2014and they get all the way to the\u2014and it\u2019s just: \u201cOh! It\u2019s so\u2026\u201d Again, I mean, you lived through it. Before I read to you what I want to read, tell me what that was like.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew:<\/strong> That was particularly with Gary. Gary was stillborn\u2014passed away in utero. They\u2014Patrick and Jennifer made a decision\u2014the hard decision\u2014to name Gary and to have a sort of a memorial for him. They still talk about him, every once in a while, and when his birthday was. When it happened, there was nothing to do but grieve and to cry together. I wasn\u2019t there; I think, at that time, we were living elsewhere\/a good ways away. That was deeply, deeply painful. There\u2019s just no other thing to say; in terms as a family, our grief for that loss. Patrick and Jennifer were really heroic and faithful throughout that process. I\u2019m really proud of them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>You write this; but when I was <em>reading<\/em> it last night\u2014I read it, out loud, to Ann. You\u2019ve got to hear this response, where Patrick says, \u201cI couldn\u2019t answer the phone.\u201d It gives just a glimpse into the devastation: \u201cI could not answer the phone.\u201d He even says, \u201cIt sounds ridiculous, but I could not answer the phone.\u201d So all these voicemails stack up; right?<\/p>\n<p>Then, one of his best friends, Keith\u2014let me read you what you wrote. It\u2019s just\u2014he said:<\/p>\n<p>One of the difficult things for me, unexpectedly, was answering the phone. It sounds so simple and ridiculous now; but the enormity of the task, in the weeks after the miscarriage, was staggering. Voicemails piled up, unanswered, though not altogether neglected.<\/p>\n<p>I can\u2019t express how comforting it was to receive the following sort of message from my brother or best friend, Keith: \u201cHey buddy, you didn\u2019t answer. That\u2019s okay; really. I\u2019m going to keep calling, because I want you to know that I\u2019m here and that I love you. But there\u2019s no pressure to answer the phone. When the time is right for you, ring me or answer, but not a moment sooner. I\u2019ll keep leaving you a message every few days; because I just want you to know you are on my heart, and in my mind, and in my prayers. I love you pal.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I mean, such a beautiful picture of: \u201cThat\u2019s what you do.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>That\u2019s a pretty perfect response; isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>It is!<\/p>\n<p><strong>All: <\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>I think the important person not to miss in this is Jesus\u2014and our relationship with God\u2014because He is always there. We can <em>mad<\/em> at Him; we can be upset; we can be disappointed; we can be angry; and yet, I think to go to Him, and to vent that\u2014to be able to express that\u2014to be able to express our disappointment and our anger\u2014He is all about knowing our hearts and our confession of truth.<\/p>\n<p>That, for me, is where I\u2019ve gone so many times when I\u2019ve been grieving, and upset, and mad. He <em>miraculously<\/em> comes in and hears me; and hears my complaint. Just like David in the Psalms\u2014by the end, I can say, \u201cBut I still trust You.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>And that\u2019s an important point; because yes, we can go there; we should. The Psalms give us direction on how to do that in our pain and suffering\u2014to be honest with God about that\/to be honest with others. We just can\u2019t dwell there forever\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>Good point.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014the Psalmist didn\u2019t. He found his way back to God and back to some sense of peace. Now, he might, the next day, be back in the ditch again.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> He might the next hour!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014minute!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes; but he\u2019s not\u2014he\u2019s not saying, \u201cThis is my new address.\u201d He\u2019s saying, \u201cThis is where I am, but I have to get back to where God wants me to be.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>The interesting thing in your book is that\u2019s where you really go: \u201cWhere\u2019s God in the middle of this? What\u2019s God up to?\u201d We haven\u2019t even talked about that yet. That\u2019s why we have got to continue this conversation.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>We want to point people to your book\u2014it's called <em>Walking Through Infertility<\/em>\u2014a <em>great<\/em> guide for folks, who are going through this themselves; for those who want to compassionately come alongside family members, friends, people in your church\u2014walk the path <em>with<\/em> them. We\u2019ve got copies of the book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can go, online, to order your copy. Again, the title is <em>Walking Through Infertility: Biblical, Theological, and Moral Counsel for Those Who Are Struggling <\/em>by Matthew Arbo. Order your copy from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order at 1-800-358-6329\u20141-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d\u2019 as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I sometimes wish those of you, who are regular listeners, and those of you who support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>\u2014I wish you could see the prayer requests that come from listeners. We regularly invite our friends and supporters to contact us if we can be praying for them. Issues like we've talked about today\u2014infertility\u2014a variety of marriage and family issues, whether substance abuse or domestic violence, or turbulent times with teenagers\u2014we're hearing from people, who are letting us know about the ongoing challenges they're facing, day in and day out, in their marriages and in the families.<\/p>\n<p>Our mission at FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> is to provide help and hope for people who are seeking to follow the Lord and to have the kind of marriage and family that honors and glorifies God. That's our mission\u2014to effectively develop godly marriages and families. I just want to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d to those of you who support this ministry, who\u2014on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of people, who joined us today to listen\u2014\u201cThank you for making this program possible for them\/for us.\u201d We are so grateful for your partnership with this ministry. We couldn't do what we do if it weren't for you.<\/p>\n<p>If you're a longtime listener, and you've never made a donation to support <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, why don't you make today the day you go online at FamilyLifeToday.com and make your first donation? Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY and donate over the phone. You'll be investing in the lives and legacies of so many people when you do that. On their behalf, I want to say, \u201cThank you for partnering with us, here at <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I hope you can be back with us again tomorrow. We're going to talk about some of the lies we are tempted to believe when we go through challenges like infertility. Mathew Arbo is our guest again tomorrow. I hope you can be here with us as well.<\/p>\n<p>I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a><\/p>\n<p>1<\/p>\n"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:28:55"],"show_notes":["<p>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/<\/a><br \/>\nCheck out all that's available on the FamilyLife Podcast Network.\u00a0 <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/<\/a><br \/>\nHave the FamilyLife Today\u00ae podcast and resources helped you?\u00a0 Consider becoming a Legacy Partner, a monthly supporter of FamilyLife.\u00a0<a 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Arbo tackles the tough topic of infertility. Arbo offers words of comfort to those who long for a child.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<p>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/<\/a><br \/>\nCheck out all that's available on the FamilyLife Podcast Network.\u00a0 <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/<\/a><br \/>\nHave the FamilyLife Today\u00ae podcast and resources helped you?\u00a0 Consider becoming a Legacy Partner, a monthly supporter of FamilyLife.\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/legacy\">https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/legacy<\/a><\/p>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-07-02.pdf","transcript_content":"<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>When couples are experiencing infertility, there is often stress and strain on their own relationship. Matthew Arbo says part of the reason for that is because it\u2019s natural for us to look around, to ask who to blame for the struggle we\u2019re experiencing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong><a id=\"_Hlk3372676\"><\/a>We want that. We want to explain it\u2014somebody\u2019s responsible. Where are we going to fix responsibility? We have some sense of release\u2014right?\u2014sort of catharsis\/bizarre catharsis that comes from blaming someone. Then both end up retreating themselves; the communication channels breaks down\u2014the marriage just implodes. If it happens that, say, the clinician discovers that it\u2019s attributable one way or another, then that adds further problem; because then \u201cWe <em>know<\/em> what the problem is\u2014the source of the problem,\u201d and <em>that<\/em> becomes the subject.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, July 2<sup>nd<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. How can husbands and wives come together and pursue oneness with each another in the midst of a struggle like infertility? We\u2019re going to talk more about that today. Stay with us.<\/p>\n<p>And welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I don\u2019t think I realized this, when we first got married, but Mary Ann wanted to be a mom pretty quick. <a id=\"_Hlk3211904\"><\/a>Again, I don\u2019t think I knew it when we first got married; I don\u2019t think I knew it when she was wanting it. Except, I do remember\u2014we got married it 1979, and we did not have our first child until 1981. Most people will go, \u201cWell, that\u2019s a good gap.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But there was a trip we were on\u2014we were driving from Tulsa to Kansas City\u2014and she was crying on the trip. She was saying, \u201cI don\u2019t understand why God would give me the desire to want to be a mom and why we can\u2019t conceive.\u201d I was a young, dumb husband\u2014like, \u201cWell, you know, It will happen,\u201d\u2014or whatever. I mean, I was in no rush\/no hurry, but this was an ache in her heart that took me a little bit by surprise. We were, ultimately, able to conceive; then we had what was called secondary infertility; which is, after conceiving, we had a long period where we were not able to conceive again. We went through the same kind of pain that she was feeling, wanting to be a mom for a second time.<\/p>\n<p>People look at us\u2014we\u2019ve got five kids\u2014and they go, \u201cWell, you didn\u2019t have any issues with infertility.\u201d But more couples than you know are struggling with the heartache of wanting to be parents and, for whatever reason, God has not opened the door for that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>I think most of us have a story like that\u2014maybe, it\u2019s not us\u2014but it is someone we know. I know for Dave and me\u2014it was with our son and his wife. We were <em>so<\/em> excited when they told us they were pregnant. I mean, it was a <em>big<\/em> deal; wasn\u2019t it? Then they miscarried, and then they miscarried <em>again<\/em>. By the third time, you begin to lose hope; and you\u2019re so fearful, that you\u2019re not sure how to respond.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>I\u2019m not sure I\u2019ve ever seen the depth of pain\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014and despair.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014watching your son and daughter-in-law go through, from a distance; and yet, it\u2019s your family. Oh, man! You talk about the topic we\u2019re talking about today\u2014it\u2019s <em>real<\/em>; it\u2019s hard!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>We\u2019ve got somebody here to help us walk through the issues of infertility. In fact, that\u2019s the name of the book he\u2019s written\u2014it\u2019s called, <em>Walking Through Infertility<\/em>. Matthew Arbo joins us.<\/p>\n<p>Matthew, welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>Thanks for having me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Matthew is a professor. He teaches at Oklahoma Baptist University in Shawnee, Oklahoma. He teaches\u2014what is it?\u2014ethics?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>Yes; Christian ethics.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>And are they paying attention?\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>[Hesitates] Sometimes. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014I mean, as you bring up ethical issues; because you are talking about very real, very contemporary issues. Are a lot of these kids locking on and going, \u201cWe need to think about these things\u201d?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>Yes; they are very interested.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes; I would\u2014I would think, if I\u2019m a college student, that would be one of the classes I would sign up for. I mean, that sounds like fireworks and \u201cWe\u2019re going to discuss; and we\u2019re going to have different opinions, and there\u2019s going to be tension.\u201d Is that true in your room?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>Yes; it\u2019s like that; yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>And Matthew, you\u2019re younger\u2014as far as a college professor\u2014I bet students really love that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>Yes, I think so.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, on the subject of infertility\u2014interesting\u2014given the fact that you could be writing on all kinds on social, cultural, philosophical issues, this is the one you locked onto to write this book. Part of that is out of a personal story, not for you and your wife, but with your brother; right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>Yes; that\u2019s right. My younger brother and his wife were infertile for a number of years. That was a difficult time for them. We didn\u2019t, then, really know what to say or what to do. You want to do something; you want to say what they need to hear. There\u2019s really very little you can do or say that lives up to the moment; because you\u2019re not with them when they turn the lights out, and they\u2019re lying in bed, and those thoughts just come flooding in. Or when they're at the grocery store and they hear a child cry or laugh on the other aisle. These sort of tangible moments. You can't be there for those.<\/p>\n<p>But you can listen\u2014and that\u2019s what we learned to do, I think\u2014learn how to listen\/how to forbear; learn how to be patient with them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>How did you even become aware that they were wrestling with infertility?\u2014because it\u2019s not the kind of thing that people wear a badge, saying, \u201cWe\u2019re infertile.\u201d Somebody that\u2019s been married two or three years\u2014you don\u2019t know whether they\u2019re childless by choice or whether they\u2019re going through infertility.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>That\u2019s exactly right. That\u2019s one of the common experiences\u2014it\u2019s undiscussed; it\u2019s un-talked about\u2014for some very obvious reasons, which some parts of our life we just keep private\u2014we don\u2019t want to talk about that. But there\u2019s also stigma\/cultural stigma associated with it. Some don\u2019t want to\u2014they don\u2019t want to talk about that out loud; they\u2019re more private.<\/p>\n<p>But with my brother, we are very close; so he was open. He told me what was going on, in what ways he could. I cried with him; I prayed with him. He was pretty communicative; I didn\u2019t have to draw him out so much. He\u2019s usually kind of a heart-on-the-sleeve kind of guy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>What was the next step?\u2014because to write a book, you have to be <em>passionate<\/em>; because it takes work, and effort, and research. So what happened in you that made you think, \u201cI need to write this\u201d?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>It really\u2014actually, it was a conversation with a former pastor of mine in Kansas City. He had explained to me that there were some couples in our church that were experiencing infertility; and there\u2019s not a lot\u2014at the time\u2014not a lot of great stuff out there. He didn\u2019t know what to give them. He was asking me about that.<\/p>\n<p>I started thinking: \u201cYou know, I\u2019ve had this personal story with my brother,\u201d and \u201cI know some of these people we\u2019re talking about,\u201d and \u201cWhat could I say in words?\u201d I'm sometimes not so great in personal conversation, in what I want to say and things come to me. But, when I get writing, it slows me down and I can say something that I really feel like I can say the right thing.<\/p>\n<p>That got me thinking about a little book like this, where I just give a sense of the shape. Also, a big part of it sort of help those\u2014particularly the couples that are going through it\u2014the book would help enlarge their world a little bit. It's just so totalizing\u2014the experience\u2014when you're in it, is just so totalizing. It sort of takes up all the oxygen in that period of life.<\/p>\n<p>What I wanted to do in the book was just help give a bigger picture.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>Tell me this. Go back to when your brother has that initial conversation, where\u2014obviously, you can probably sense, he\u2019s unveiling something that\u2019s, oftentimes, kept a secret\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014he doesn\u2019t share. He shares it with you. What\u2019s the emotion in the room? What did <em>you<\/em> feel?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew:<\/strong> I felt sad for him; I felt powerless: \u201cThere\u2019s nothing I can <em>do<\/em>.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>Did you have any kids at the time?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>Not yet; not yet\u2014but very soon\u2014and that became something, too, when we conceived. I sort of made a special slot to talk to him on the phone to tell him what was going on. He was so happy for us, of course; but I wanted to be sensitive to what they\u2019re going through. The feeling, even though their on the telephone\u2014we\u2019re not close to each other\u2014there\u2019s still the pauses and the strain that comes up in a conversation like that. I just <em>felt<\/em> for him.<\/p>\n<p>We have the desires for children and they're <em>deep<\/em>. They're deep and they almost feel biological\u2014they're just part of us\u2014these wants. So it's really hard to be with someone, knowing there's little you can do, except be present.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019m thinking about the number of the times I\u2019ve talked to young couples\u2014maybe they\u2019ve been married three or four years; no kids showing up. In the back of my mind, I\u2019m thinking, \u201cSo what\u2019s going on here?\u201d My wife will nudge me and say, \u201c<em>Don\u2019t ask<\/em> what\u2019s going on.\u201d I\u2019m thinking: \u201cNo! I want to know. If they are struggling, I want to struggle with them; if they\u2019re not, I want to nudge them and say, \u2018Let\u2019s get on with the show and have some kids here!\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>The truth is\u2014Bob\u2019s nosy\u2014that\u2019s it! [Laughter] He wants to stick his nose in <em>your<\/em> business. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>I call it: \u201cIntentionally intrusive\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>There you go!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cbut with a redemptive purpose attached to it\u201d; okay? Is that better than nosy?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>Ah, that\u2019s the same thing. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>In terms of posture\u2014for those of us who may know couples\u2014and we don\u2019t know whether they\u2019re dealing with infertility; we don\u2019t whether they\u2019re childless by choice\u2014we don\u2019t know the dynamics. Do we just keep our mouths shut?\u2014or do we say something?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>That\u2019s a <em>great<\/em> question. I think, if there is a sufficient level of trust and rapport, where a question like that could be received\u2014you know, in kind of a jocular way and the venue is right\u2014absolutely. But if it\u2019s more public and the rapport is not there\u2014couples who are experiencing prolonged infertility\u2014to ask that [of them]\u2014it\u2019s deeply wounding, [from] those of who have talked to me about that.<\/p>\n<p>People mean well. Folks at church asking, \u201cWhen are you guys going to have a family?\u201d \u201cWhen are you\u2026?\u201d; you know. Or grandparents, you know, eager to be grandparents. The couple\u2014it's not from lack of trying; they just can't. That's itself, wounding. There's a recognition now; it's not just our own problem\u2014right?\u2014our own recognition; but now, <em>others<\/em> see that we don't have children.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>And you said there\u2019s some shame attached to it in the hearts of people, who are trying to conceive and can\u2019t\u2014they feel like there is something wrong with them?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew:<\/strong> That\u2019s very regularly the case\u2014so common; it\u2019s ubiquitous: \u201cWell, I\u2019m a human being; and one thing human beings seem to be good at is reproducing.\u201d They don\u2019t have to be told much about that: \u201cWe can do that.\u201d When we\u2019re <em>not<\/em> able to do that, it seems like some sort of biological failure. We know, medically and scientifically now, lots of reasons why a couple can\u2019t conceive or have trouble; but from that person\u2019s point of view, it feels like a failure. And it feels like you are not able to do the basic thing human beings have been doing, successfully, for millennium.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>You also wrote in the book a little bit about: \u201cOkay; if I\u2019m a Christ-follower,\u201d\u2014this could be for a non-Christ-follower as well\u2014there\u2019s even a sense of \u201cGod betraying me,\u201d\u2014almost, punishment: \u201cWhat have I done wrong?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>That was what Mary Ann was saying, \u201cIf I\u2019m trying to play by the rules, here\u2014trying to do what God wants\u2014why would He withhold from me what is a blessing for so many?\u2014and what\u2019s the longing of my heart?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>And I would think there would be real introspection then\u2014like: \u201cWhat\u2019s wrong with me, God? Is there something wrong? Have I done something? Is this because of my past?\u201d There\u2019s probably a lot of questioning going on.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>What do you do with somebody like that who\u2019s feeling that way? How do you help them recognize that we live in a fallen world, but this doesn\u2019t mean you are a worthless or a broken person?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>Yes; one of the first things I say\u2014as sincerely as I can\/I mean it\u2014is: \u201cI\u2019m <em>so<\/em> sorry you\u2019re having to go through that,\u201d\u2014to just tell them that. \u201cIt\u2019s hard,\u201d and to let them know that \u201cI can see, in what ways that I can, that it\u2019s hard.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014and not give any answers?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew:<\/strong> Initially; yes, that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>Yes; to not feel like I\u2019ve got an arsenal of possibilities for them and that I can fix it. They very likely\u2014if they\u2019ve come to this point in telling me, they\u2019ve talked to people\u2014they\u2019ve seen clinicians; they\u2019ve taken steps. I\u2018m not going to tell them anything they haven\u2019t heard, but one thing that, maybe, they are lacking in is someone being present with them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>What does that look like to be present; you know?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>In practice, it can be something like\u2014maybe getting the guy, and just having some direct conversation\/direct questions: \u201cHow are you doing? What\u2019s going on?\u201d Then let it just\u2014drawing them out, so they don\u2019t have to shelter under that experience and the weight of it by themselves.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ve talked to pastors a lot about this\/we talk to our elders about this\u2014about how to just be <em>with<\/em> people\u2014it takes just sticking to it. One of the things we want to do is fix and want to have the tools for fixing. But in this case, like the best thing you can do is just listen sometimes\u2014just listen to someone grieve, aloud, about their miscarriage.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>The thing that struck me, as I read through your book\u2014you just talked about the present part\u2014but let me go back to the first thing that struck me, earlier, was the things <em>not<\/em> to say. Seriously, you mention many different pat answers\u2014I think I've said them at times\u2014and how harmful they can be. Talk about that a little bit. What <em>don\u2019t<\/em> you say to somebody that is really struggling?\u2014it might not be just be infertility\u2014but definitely this topic as well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>Yes; I mean, \u201cGod has a plan for you,\u201d\u2014which, of course, is true\u2014a person of faith\/he\u2019s following Jesus I think believes that God has a plan for them. The question kind of, as we started with the story at the beginning is, it\u2019s not they don\u2019t realize this; it\u2019s just disjunction\u2014right?\u2014and it\u2019s trying to interpret what this disjunction means: \u201cGod <em>loves<\/em> me. God wants this thing for me. I have this thing that I want, and it\u2019s not happening,\u201d and \u201cI can\u2019t <em>make<\/em> it happen on my own resolve here.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s one thing\u2014that God\u2019s got a plan\u2014of course, He does; but let\u2019s not use that as a way of explaining away the deep difficulty\/your grief that someone would feel.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Don\u2019t pull out Romans 8:28 out of your pocket and say, you know, \u201cGod causes all things to work for good.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>That\u2019s exactly right! That\u2019s exactly right. Or to say something like, you know, \u201cYou must have unrepentant sin,\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Oh, boy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>\u2014or something similar.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>Oh! That\u2019s a good one\u2014wow! [Said with disbelief]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>I mean, I\u2019ve heard some <em>horror<\/em> stories of what individuals have been told by folks, who think they have some answer or platitude.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>There\u2019s a strain of thinking that says, \u201cIt must be a faith issue with you\u201d; right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew:<\/strong> It\u2019s totally understandable why\u2014why this happened. You can see why\u2014in a moment of difficulty and disclosure, not really having the emotional or maybe spiritual ability, in the moment\u2014right?\u2014to just say, or not say\u2014right?\u2014<em>nothing<\/em>. And just say, \u201cI\u2019m <em>so<\/em> sorry.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>I was going to ask that. If I\u2019m that person, receiving that news and I feel so awkward: \u201cI don\u2019t know what to say.\u201d You would say: \u201cOne of the things is don\u2019t say anything. You <em>don\u2019t<\/em> need to give an answer or a response. Just <em>be<\/em> there.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Did you, with your daughter-in-law\u2014when they were going through infertility and miscarriages\u2014I know you said, \u201cI\u2019m so sorry,\u201d\u2014beyond that, how did you try to interact with her, and minister to her, and help her?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think one of things Dave and I did was\u2014we said: \u201cHow can we pray for you?\u201d \u201cHow can we help you?\u201d \u201cHow can we be there for you?\u201d\u2014just asking those questions. Honestly, there is such a helpless feeling when you\u2019re on the outside; and there\u2019s an awkwardness, too, of not knowing: \u201cIs this the right thing?\u201d and \u201cI don\u2019t want to hurt you more.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I thought it was really sweet that they would\u2014like Austin and Kendall even asked me to just come in and just cook\/clean. It\u2019s almost like so they could grieve. They\u2019re not only grieving the present, but they\u2019re grieving of what <em>may not<\/em> happen\u2014their hopes and their dreams. Just to give them that space but, also, to be right there in case we could do anything.<\/p>\n<p>I think that prayer thing is a big deal; because we were <em>so consistent<\/em> in seeking God, and asking God; and isn\u2019t this the Bible? Think of all the women in the Bible that could not conceive\u2014and then, it was even more of a stigma in that era; but it still is\u2014it\u2019s still very, very hard and very difficult. We\u2019ve even seen circumstances, where the marriage is lost because of it; because there is so much emotion\/there\u2019s so much pain; that if you don\u2019t bring that together, it can really tear you apart.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew: <\/strong>On that latter point, one very common experience for couples who go through infertility is to see marital strain very quickly and blaming. Blaming is corrosive to any relationship.<\/p>\n<p>We want that; we want to explain it. Where are we going to fix responsibility? We have some sense of release\u2014right?\u2014some sort of catharsis\/bizarre catharsis that comes from blaming someone, but the marriage just implodes; then both end up retreating, themselves; communication channels break down.<\/p>\n<p>I think couples deeply want to be heard by each other in earnest, truthful ways. With this particular subject\u2014because it\u2019s so deeply felt, personally\u2014if it happens that say, the clinician discovers that it\u2019s attributable one way or another, then, that adds further problem; because then we <em>know<\/em> what the problem is\u2014the source of the problem\u2014and <em>that<\/em> becomes the subject.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>Something that hit me, when I was reading the book, was in the back\u2014when you interview your brother with these great questions\u2014you\u2019re walking through it. It\u2019s really helpful for the reader\u2014because like: \u201cHow do I respond?\u201d You ask all the questions that need to be asked. You realize, \u201cOh, this story that\u2019s in the book\u2014this fictional couple\u2014is a real couple.\u201d It\u2019s really personal to you, because it\u2019s your brother.<\/p>\n<p>One of the things that I found very profound was\u2014you discover in these questions\u2014they actually did get pregnant [pause] and have a stillbirth. It\u2019s <em>horrific<\/em>; because now, hope finally\u2014and they get all the way to the\u2014and it\u2019s just: \u201cOh! It\u2019s so\u2026\u201d Again, I mean, you lived through it. Before I read to you what I want to read, tell me what that was like.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Matthew:<\/strong> That was particularly with Gary. Gary was stillborn\u2014passed away in utero. They\u2014Patrick and Jennifer made a decision\u2014the hard decision\u2014to name Gary and to have a sort of a memorial for him. They still talk about him, every once in a while, and when his birthday was. When it happened, there was nothing to do but grieve and to cry together. I wasn\u2019t there; I think, at that time, we were living elsewhere\/a good ways away. That was deeply, deeply painful. There\u2019s just no other thing to say; in terms as a family, our grief for that loss. Patrick and Jennifer were really heroic and faithful throughout that process. I\u2019m really proud of them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>You write this; but when I was <em>reading<\/em> it last night\u2014I read it, out loud, to Ann. You\u2019ve got to hear this response, where Patrick says, \u201cI couldn\u2019t answer the phone.\u201d It gives just a glimpse into the devastation: \u201cI could not answer the phone.\u201d He even says, \u201cIt sounds ridiculous, but I could not answer the phone.\u201d So all these voicemails stack up; right?<\/p>\n<p>Then, one of his best friends, Keith\u2014let me read you what you wrote. It\u2019s just\u2014he said:<\/p>\n<p>One of the difficult things for me, unexpectedly, was answering the phone. It sounds so simple and ridiculous now; but the enormity of the task, in the weeks after the miscarriage, was staggering. Voicemails piled up, unanswered, though not altogether neglected.<\/p>\n<p>I can\u2019t express how comforting it was to receive the following sort of message from my brother or best friend, Keith: \u201cHey buddy, you didn\u2019t answer. That\u2019s okay; really. I\u2019m going to keep calling, because I want you to know that I\u2019m here and that I love you. But there\u2019s no pressure to answer the phone. When the time is right for you, ring me or answer, but not a moment sooner. I\u2019ll keep leaving you a message every few days; because I just want you to know you are on my heart, and in my mind, and in my prayers. I love you pal.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I mean, such a beautiful picture of: \u201cThat\u2019s what you do.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>That\u2019s a pretty perfect response; isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>It is!<\/p>\n<p><strong>All: <\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>I think the important person not to miss in this is Jesus\u2014and our relationship with God\u2014because He is always there. We can <em>mad<\/em> at Him; we can be upset; we can be disappointed; we can be angry; and yet, I think to go to Him, and to vent that\u2014to be able to express that\u2014to be able to express our disappointment and our anger\u2014He is all about knowing our hearts and our confession of truth.<\/p>\n<p>That, for me, is where I\u2019ve gone so many times when I\u2019ve been grieving, and upset, and mad. He <em>miraculously<\/em> comes in and hears me; and hears my complaint. Just like David in the Psalms\u2014by the end, I can say, \u201cBut I still trust You.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>And that\u2019s an important point; because yes, we can go there; we should. The Psalms give us direction on how to do that in our pain and suffering\u2014to be honest with God about that\/to be honest with others. We just can\u2019t dwell there forever\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>Good point.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014the Psalmist didn\u2019t. He found his way back to God and back to some sense of peace. Now, he might, the next day, be back in the ditch again.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> He might the next hour!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014minute!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes; but he\u2019s not\u2014he\u2019s not saying, \u201cThis is my new address.\u201d He\u2019s saying, \u201cThis is where I am, but I have to get back to where God wants me to be.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>The interesting thing in your book is that\u2019s where you really go: \u201cWhere\u2019s God in the middle of this? What\u2019s God up to?\u201d We haven\u2019t even talked about that yet. That\u2019s why we have got to continue this conversation.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>We want to point people to your book\u2014it's called <em>Walking Through Infertility<\/em>\u2014a <em>great<\/em> guide for folks, who are going through this themselves; for those who want to compassionately come alongside family members, friends, people in your church\u2014walk the path <em>with<\/em> them. We\u2019ve got copies of the book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can go, online, to order your copy. Again, the title is <em>Walking Through Infertility: Biblical, Theological, and Moral Counsel for Those Who Are Struggling <\/em>by Matthew Arbo. Order your copy from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order at 1-800-358-6329\u20141-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d\u2019 as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I sometimes wish those of you, who are regular listeners, and those of you who support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>\u2014I wish you could see the prayer requests that come from listeners. We regularly invite our friends and supporters to contact us if we can be praying for them. Issues like we've talked about today\u2014infertility\u2014a variety of marriage and family issues, whether substance abuse or domestic violence, or turbulent times with teenagers\u2014we're hearing from people, who are letting us know about the ongoing challenges they're facing, day in and day out, in their marriages and in the families.<\/p>\n<p>Our mission at FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> is to provide help and hope for people who are seeking to follow the Lord and to have the kind of marriage and family that honors and glorifies God. That's our mission\u2014to effectively develop godly marriages and families. I just want to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d to those of you who support this ministry, who\u2014on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of people, who joined us today to listen\u2014\u201cThank you for making this program possible for them\/for us.\u201d We are so grateful for your partnership with this ministry. We couldn't do what we do if it weren't for you.<\/p>\n<p>If you're a longtime listener, and you've never made a donation to support <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, why don't you make today the day you go online at FamilyLifeToday.com and make your first donation? Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY and donate over the phone. You'll be investing in the lives and legacies of so many people when you do that. On their behalf, I want to say, \u201cThank you for partnering with us, here at <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I hope you can be back with us again tomorrow. We're going to talk about some of the lies we are tempted to believe when we go through challenges like infertility. Mathew Arbo is our guest again tomorrow. I hope you can be here with us as well.<\/p>\n<p>I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a><\/p>\n<p>1<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/306225","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=306225"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=306225"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=306225"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=306225"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=306225"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=306225"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=306225"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}