{"id":306207,"date":"2020-06-25T07:00:04","date_gmt":"2020-06-25T11:00:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/indebted-to-love\/"},"modified":"2025-04-22T14:26:32","modified_gmt":"2025-04-22T18:26:32","slug":"indebted-to-love","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/indebted-to-love\/","title":{"rendered":"Indebted to Love"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Could arguing about money be negatively affecting your intimacy? Brian and Cherie Lowe, authors of &#8220;Your Money, Your Marriage,&#8221; think it can. It certainly did theirs. The Lowes tell how they found themselves $127,000 in debt. After Brian cast a vision for what their life could be debt-free, they started paying off their bills, and as they did, their love life began improving. The Lowes encourage couples to slay the debt dragon and fall more in love!<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Could arguing about money be negatively affecting your intimacy? Cherie and Brian Lowe think it can. It certainly did theirs. The Lowes encourage couples to slay the debt dragon and fall more in love!<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-06-25.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:38","filesize":"25.3M","filesize_raw":"26533136","date_recorded":"2020-06-25 07:00:04","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2082,2851,2862],"tags":[4525],"podcast_series":[8271],"cwp_profile":[9525],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-306207","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-communication","category-finances","category-understanding-differences","tag-finances","podcast_series-your-money-your-marriage","cwp_profile-brian-and-cherie-lowe","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/306207\/indebted-to-love","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/306207\/indebted-to-love","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"g5I7D1dOI2\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/indebted-to-love\/\">Indebted to Love<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/indebted-to-love\/embed\/#?secret=g5I7D1dOI2\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Indebted to Love&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"g5I7D1dOI2\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Could arguing about money be negatively affecting your intimacy? Cherie and Brian Lowe think it can. It certainly did theirs. The Lowes encourage couples to slay the debt dragon and fall more in love!","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<p>Find more from Cherie Lowe at QueenofFree.net.<br \/>\nCheck out all that's available on the FamilyLife Podcast Network.\u00a0 https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/<br \/>\nHave the FamilyLife Today\u00ae podcast and resources helped you?\u00a0 Consider becoming a Legacy Partner, a monthly supporter of FamilyLife.\u00a0https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/legacy<\/p>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-06-25.pdf","transcript_content":"<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Cherie Lowe knew she and her husband, Brian, had some debt. She just didn\u2019t know it was <em>six<\/em> <em>figures<\/em> of debt until her husband told her it was time for a talk.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think I really knew the totality until he had that legal-pad moment, where everything was written down. It hit me like: \u201cWow! This is a <em>huge<\/em> amount of money. If we keep living the way we are living, it\u2019s <em>not<\/em> going to get any better; it\u2019s going to get bigger\/that number\u2019s going to grow instead. We have to do <em>something<\/em>. We can\u2019t just stay <em>here<\/em>.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, June 25<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I\u2019m Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. If there is money stress in your marriage, it\u2019s affecting your oneness\/your relationship with each other. We\u2019ll talk more about that today with Brian and Cherie Lowe. Stay with us.<\/p>\n<p>And welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. Did you guys ever have money conflict in your marriage?\u2014money issues?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Bob, does any couple <em>not<\/em> have money conflict in marriage? [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> We <em>rarely<\/em> had\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Really?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014money conflict. Part of that\u2019s because my wife is very thrifty, so she\u2014there was never any overspending stuff.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Ann, did you hear that? His wife was thrifty. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> What is that word?! What\u2019s that mean?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay; we\u2019ve touched on the nerve here, haven\u2019t we? [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, boy; we\u2019ve had some conflicts.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> We\u2019ve had some doozies. I can\u2019t wait to talk about this book.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, we\u2019re going to talk to Cherie and Brian Lowe, who join us. They\u2019ve written a book called <em>Your Money, Your Marriage.<\/em> Guys, welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>\u00a0<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie: <\/strong>Thank you so much.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian: <\/strong>Thanks for having us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Your story is a part of why you wrote, not only this book, but the book, <em>Slaying the Debt Dragon.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie: <\/strong>Correct.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> I asked you, Cherie, earlier: \u201cHow far in debt were you?\u201d What did you tell me?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> We paid off $127,482.30.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> When she said 30 cents, I go, \u201cThis was a hallmark day\u201d; wasn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie: <\/strong>Fun story: we actually overpaid Sallie Mae by 33 cents, so we called them and tried to get the 33 cents back. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Did you really?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> Yes; they didn\u2019t think we were very funny.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian:<\/strong> I wanted interest. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is your second foray into this subject because there was some stuff, when you wrote about <em>Slaying the Debt Dragon<\/em>, that you really didn\u2019t get to talk to about the relational dynamic of all of this; right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> Definitely. We really learned so much through writing that first book. It was interesting to get feedback from readers, who said, \u201cThis is a good book about money, but we think there are some better ideas in here about marriage even.\u201d So we wanted to further explore that a little bit and to do that together.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, it\u2019s interesting because the subtitle is <em>The Secret to Smart Finance, Spicy Romance, and Their Intimate Connection.<\/em> I am so intrigued!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian:<\/strong> If you think about it, arguments about money pull us apart. We started considering: \u201cAgreements about money can\u2019t help but push us together,\u201d\u2014well, that\u2019s anecdotal\u2014so then we dug into some empirical data to see if we were right about that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh! So you have <em>evidence<\/em>? [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian:<\/strong> Sure; it turns out: \u201cPeople fight about money.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie: <\/strong>But if you think about it, personally, the last time that you had a fight about money probably didn\u2019t end in a night of passion. We began to dig deeper into that. Certainly, we know that sex and money are two of the top reasons why people get divorced; but was it possible that the things that you learned about managing money well together could be transferred into more intimate areas of your marriage as well?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Let me back it all up\u2014because for folks who don\u2019t know\u2014how did you get $127,000\u2014[Laughter]\u2014whatever the number was\u2014how did that happen in the first place?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> By not paying attention; that\u2019s the main way. Certainly, we had a lot of student loan debt. I think a lot of people in the United States, especially, are saddled with student loan debt. We had credit card debt to the tune of about $16,500, which is actually the national average. If you have that, you\u2019re not alone\u2014a lot of people do. We had car debt; we had medical debt, because we had actually just had our second child at that point. Babies are <em>beautiful<\/em> and a blessing, but they\u2019re also very <em>expensive<\/em>. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian:<\/strong> Amen.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> We had purchased furniture on a payment plan, so we had that. We had a gap loan, where we were unemployed. It was just this mixed bag of assorted debt, where we were taking everyone else\u2019s advice about money and really not paying attention.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Brian, how long into all this debt accumulation did it take for you move from, \u201cI\u2019m okay with this; we can manage it,\u201d to \u201cUh-oh. We\u2019re in trouble, and I\u2019m starting to panic here\u201d?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian:<\/strong> We started April 2<sup>nd<\/sup> of 2008 really being committed, because you should <em>never<\/em> start anything on April 1<sup>st<\/sup>. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is paying down the dog.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian:<\/strong> Two years prior to <em>that<\/em>, I actually communicated with Cherie that I wanted to get out of debt\u2014that\u2019s exactly how I communicated it to her\u2014and it failed. One of the things I realized\u2014and it took a couple of years to realize\u2014is that if you don\u2019t approach something in love, you\u2019re <em>never<\/em> going to succeed.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> You didn\u2019t go to her and say: \u201cSweetheart, I\u2019ve been praying about this; and this is something that is on my heart. I\u2019d like us to just kind of come together and see if this might be what the Lord would want for us to get out of debt,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s not how you handled it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian:<\/strong> I should have talked to you first. [Laughter] That was really good, Bob.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Dave\/Dave, did you hear that? That was <em>good<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t hear a thing. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> How did you go\/you just went and said, \u201cI want to get out of debt\u201d?<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian:<\/strong> It was more by fiat than anything else\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Oh!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian:<\/strong> \u2014it was more: \u201cHere\u2019s what we\u2019re going to do. I want to do this; let\u2019s do this.\u201d And two years <em>later<\/em>, we still hadn\u2019t begun.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Two years later, you\u2014what did you do?\u2014you changed something.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian:<\/strong> Changed everything. I started thinking about casting a vision\u2014or what a lot of folks call \u201cPostcards from the future\u201d\u2014\u201cWhat will it look like if we pay this off?\u201d \u201cWhat could we do for the kingdom of God?\u201d \u201cWhat could we do to change our family tree?\u201d \u201cWhat could we do to send our kids to college?\u201d \u201c\u2026our community?\u201d \u201c\u2026things that we wanted to give to?\u201d \u201cCould we retire early?\u201d \u201cCould we spend more time together?\u201d \u201cCould we go on vacation?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Those types of things were more <em>inviting<\/em> Cherie into the journey, with love\u2014is really the approach that I took.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Cherie, did that help you? Was that motivating?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie: <\/strong>Oh, my word! That set my heart on <em>fire<\/em> because, when he encouraged me to dream big, and really answer that question of: \u201cWhat would we do if we weren\u2019t putting so much money every month toward payments and interest?\u201d I was like, \u201cYes! I want to be there! I want to do that!\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Now, was this a planned like evening that you decided to do this or over time? I\u2019m thinking of the couple out there, that\u2019s thinking, \u201cI want to do this.\u201d Do you go out to Ruth\u2019s Chris<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> [Steak House] and spend a whole bunch of money and say, \u201cLet\u2019s do this,\u201d\u2014no; I\u2019m kidding, obviously\u2014[Laughter]\u2014but did you really\/did you sit down and say, \u201cToday\u2019s the day\u201d?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian:<\/strong> Yes; there was no distraction. I mean, it\u2019s one of those things, where you have to set an environment up. In the book, we talk about popcorn: \u201cEverything is better with popcorn,\u201d\u2014so having a snack. I don\u2019t know that we actually had popcorn in that moment\u2014but having a meal\/breaking bread together; a literal <em>communion<\/em> with your spouse\u2014to talk about important things and to <em>dream big<\/em> together. I think it was a <em>few<\/em> of those [times]\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian:<\/strong> \u2014where we talked about it.<\/p>\n<p>And Cherie, as a practical matter, couldn\u2019t wrap her brain around it; because she did the day-to-day finances, and I didn\u2019t. She did the grocery shopping, and I didn\u2019t. So that\u2019s something, where I really had to listen to <em>her<\/em> concerns and her needs, too.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Now, you said it was approached this time with love.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Let me ask you this: \u201cWas there any anger? I don\u2019t mean bad anger but holy discontent anger\u2014like, \u2018This is enough!\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian:<\/strong> I think anytime that you start a big journey\u2014this is going to sound weird\u2014but it comes out of a place of disgust.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian:<\/strong> This was <em>not<\/em> where we wanted to be; we were disgusted with our present situation. It was overwhelming. It was really the first time\u2014you know, I had a really long legal pad\u2014it was the first time that we wrote everything down, and added it up, and looked at how long it would take\u2014the loans that I had were <em>30<\/em>-<em>year<\/em> loans\u2014the student loans.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian:<\/strong> That\u2019s a long time. Our kids would\u2019ve been in college or done with college by that point in time, so that was overwhelming; and then the weight becomes heavy. Then it becomes, \u201cNo, I\u2019m <em>not<\/em> going to let this bring us down.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Cherie, the first time that Brian came to you and said, by fiat, \u201cWe are getting out of debt,\u201d and you didn\u2019t react well to it, were you comfortable with the debt you were in?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think I really knew the totality until he had that legal-pad moment, where everything was written down. It hit me like: \u201cWow! This is a <em>huge<\/em> amount of money. If we keep living the way we\u2019re living, it\u2019s not going to get any better; it\u2019s going to get bigger; that number is going to grow instead. We have to do <em>something<\/em>. We can\u2019t just stay <em>here<\/em>.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I always tell people: \u201cThere is no good time to begin paying off debt; there is only today. If you don\u2019t start doing something today, it\u2019s <em>never<\/em> going to change.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> What you\u2019re talking about in your new book is a subtle and sometimes invisible connection between how we\u2019re handling our money in marriage and how we\u2019re doing, as a couple, in our personal relationship in marriage. I think we tend to look at those as separate and distinct like: \u201cThose two don\u2019t fit together. Our money and our relationship should not be intermingled.\u201d But if two become one in marriage, then this is all in the same blender; isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> It is; it\u2019s so intertwined together that you can\u2019t pull it apart, even if you try. We really began to look at the different areas where couples struggle. We found eight key areas where, really, it\u2019s difficult to manage money; but it\u2019s also difficult to approach intimacy as well\u2014things like communication, and trust, and vulnerability, and leadership, and even organization\u2014that lead to either a happier marriage or a not-so-harmonious union.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You\u2019ve got to talk about a phrase I\u2019ve never heard in my <em>life<\/em>: \u201cFinancial foreplay.\u201d What in the world is that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian:<\/strong> To us, \u201cfinancial foreplay\u201d simply means husbands and wives investing in smart financial habits and relational capital to clear the way for spicy sex and meaningful togetherness. It\u2019s complete trust, vulnerability, and connection when it comes to both our bodies and our budgets. It results from continued mutual pursuit of improved shared money habits and communication.<\/p>\n<p>And if you think about some of those words that are used in that definition\u2014communication, vulnerability, trust\u2014those words are <em>both<\/em> about money, and they\u2019re <em>both<\/em> about intimacy. When you build, those transcend one another. So if you build together with money, and you communicate well about money, you will communicate well about your finances.<\/p>\n<p>When you achieve goals together\/you are faithful in your finances, then the other spouse trusts you even more. For us, working together to pay off the debt and accomplishing that together brought us closer together because we <em>had<\/em> to be closer together to accomplish something.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes, you have to be on the same page.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian:<\/strong> You have to be on the same page together, so that brought us closer together as a couple.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> And you\u2019ve actually found out this isn\u2019t just <em>you<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Other couples have experienced the same thing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> Yes, definitely. Brian has some statistics that he can share specifically about the broader base of people and marriages within the United States, and they are kind of jarring when you read them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian:<\/strong> If you fight about money, once or more per week, you\u2019re 30 percent more likely to get a divorce than other people. One of my jobs is that I\u2019m a family law attorney. I help people going through divorce situations, and the number-one reason people come into my office has to do with money.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m a <em>spender<\/em> on other people.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> It wasn\u2019t necessarily on <em>myself<\/em>, but I like to\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s true.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014I\u2019m very generous to <em>others<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Where Dave was like, \u201cWe need to get our\u2014no, <em>you<\/em> need to get a handle on this.\u201d I would get defensive, thinking, \u201cI am doing this for other people; this is nice of me\u201d; but what I came to realize, the more we talked\u2014I asked him, \u201cDo you feel like this is disrespectful to <em>you<\/em>?\u201d\u2014and he said: \u201cThat\u2019s it!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> Sure.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian: <\/strong>Sure.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u201cThis makes me feel like you don\u2019t care about <em>us.<\/em>\u201d I was <em>shocked<\/em> by that answer.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> That\u2019s very vulnerable to admit that\u2014like, \u201cHere is this place where I feel betrayed in some ways.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> When it comes to both our bodies and our bank accounts, we are fully on display. Every mistake, every flaw\u2014everything is visible\u2014and that\u2019s scary. I think, for a lot of us, both being able to vocalize: \u201cHere\u2019s how what you\u2019re doing makes me feel\u2026\u2014as well as\u2014\u201cWill you still love me even though I\u2019m not perfect and I\u2019m a mess?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; what you guys are tapping into\u2014which is so almost deep and profound\u2014the sex aspect of the human is soul. We teach this all the time; it\u2019s like God didn\u2019t give us the gift of sex\u2014and it\u2019s just body to body\u2014it gets to the soul. That\u2019s why it\u2019s so intimate and so beautiful.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and vulnerable.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You need to protect it in the covenant of marriage.<\/p>\n<p>The interesting thing about money is that it\u2019s about soul, too; think about that! You guys have tapped into that, and I think it\u2019s beautiful to help couples understand that. This is at the heart. Again, why did Jesus talk so much about it?\u2014because He knew this gets our heart.<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019re showing people: \u201cWow! Just as much as money pulls us apart, if you get on the same page, it\u2019s going to bring you together\u2014not just in the bedroom\u2014but in every area.\u201d What a <em>great<\/em> motivation for couples to say, \u201cI want to pick up this book and want to start doing what you did to get where you got.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I have to ask you this, though\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014because when you hear your story\u2014okay, you paid off $127,456.30; I don\u2019t think I got it exactly right; but you know, every penny\u2014a lot of people are thinking, \u201cDo you have a life anymore?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cDo you have fun?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u201cDo you enjoy life, or are you just stingy\/you can\u2019t enjoy anything?\u201d I mean, talk about that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann: <\/strong>That\u2019s because I used to say that to him. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian:<\/strong> That\u2019s what people <em>think<\/em>; I mean\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> I think so, too. You know what? If you look at the word, \u201cfrugal\u201d\u2014which you said your wife was very thrifty; frugal is another adjective that people use sometimes\u2014the root word of it actually means \u201cto enjoy,\u201d which is mind-blowing. It\u2019s the same place we get the word \u201cfruit\u201d and \u201cfruitful,\u201d too; frugal comes out of that.<\/p>\n<p>I think the number-one thing I learned, while we were paying off debt, was what I really <em>loved<\/em>\u2014which is crazy because I love a good bargain\u2014and I was chasing all these other things. We weren\u2019t crazy spenders every\u2014but I\u2019m like a clearance warrior\u2014\u201cYou know, I\u2019m going to find it out there.\u201d But I was buying things I didn\u2019t necessarily always love, which is crazy.<\/p>\n<p>As we whittled down, I thought: \u201cI love to laugh,\u201d \u201cI love a good glass of iced tea,\u201d \u201cI love my kids,\u201d \u201cI love my husband,\u201d \u201cWe certainly love our community: our small group, our church.\u201d I think, as things got stripped away, God opened my eyes to: \u201cYou know what? There\u2019s a lot of <em>stuff<\/em> out there you could have; but in the end, when you lay it all down, you\u2019re not going to long for the <em>stuff<\/em>. You\u2019re going to long for the people and the experiences you love.\u201d That was an eye-opening moment for sure.<\/p>\n<p>On the other side of debt, we have been able to do some fun stuff. We\u2019ve gone on vacations\u2014a lot of those things that I think people dream of being able to do. We\u2019ve given money away like crazy. Now, we have an account that we call the Generous Account. If I\u2019m in the grocery store, and I see a mom struggling, I just buy her groceries.<\/p>\n<p>We have an understanding here; see, she loves that\/she loves that radical generosity\u2014[Laughter]\u2014but if you set up the account for it\u2014we even have a debit card for the Generous Account\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> \u2014that is just for that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> that\u2019s a good idea.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie: <\/strong>Four classifications of people we love to bless are veterans, young families, pastors, and teachers. If we\u2019re out for dinner, and we see one of those four, you\u2019d better believe they\u2019re going to get their check picked up.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> It\u2019s kind of <em>amazing<\/em> to be able to do that and not feel that stress or worry of, \u201cDo we have enough in there to be able to do that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> You\u2019ve become very intentional.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie: <\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian:<\/strong> Oh, absolutely; yes. But four years is a <em>long<\/em> time. It took us four years to pay off that debt. We had a child that went from an infant to being literate and ready for school in that timeframe. We always measure how long the journey has been; we had a daughter born right before we started paying off debt. It\u2019s been that long\/that high since we\u2019ve been doing that.<\/p>\n<p>But the four years\u2014we still had a <em>blast<\/em> in the process. There were rough times, but we had a blast in the process. God blessed us with <em>amazing<\/em> opportunities while we were paying off debt, too.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> There was a season in our marriage, where we had moved twice in the course of a year. We still had not sold the house that we owned in our first city. We had bought a new house in the second city. We had now moved out of the second city to a third city. We\u2019re renting in the third city while we\u2019re paying two mortgages in the previous cities. We were right at the thin edge of what we could get by on, so there was a lot of ramen, a lot of mac and cheese\u2014it was those moments. We were not\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Here\u2019s what we started to do. We would still have the impulses we had always had that: \u201cI need a new suit,\u201d \u201cI need this\u2026\u201d We would start to say, \u201cWhen we have money again, the first thing I\u2019m going to buy is <em>this<\/em>\u201d; but we didn\u2019t have the money. We were committed\u2014I don\u2019t know why this happened early on\u2014but we have never, in our marriage, not paid off a credit card immediately; somebody told me that years ago. We\u2019ve stuck with that; we\u2019re not going to do that\u2014we\u2019re not going to take on credit card debt.<\/p>\n<p>We started writing a list down of the things we were going to buy when we had money again; because I knew, \u201cOne of these days, these houses are going to sell. We\u2019re going to have a windfall. We\u2019ll go to the list, and we\u2019ll prioritize.\u201d Mary Ann and I\u2014for <em>months<\/em>, we\u2019d get out the list. I\u2019d say, \u201cIf we had the money today, what would you buy first?\u201d and we\u2019d circle that. Then the next month, we\u2019d get out the list again; and say, \u201cOkay; if we had the money <em>today<\/em>, what would you buy first?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I said, \u201cLast month, you said it was this\u201d; and she said, \u201cYes, I wouldn\u2019t even buy that anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> Love it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> That was an \u201cAha\u201d moment for us when we saw how much we were doing on impulse\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014that four weeks later, we wouldn\u2019t even think about. It changed the way we related to our own desires. Even when we had the money again, we would say, \u201cOkay; we\u2019re just going to keep the list there, and we\u2019re going to wait and vet that desire for a period of a month and see if we still have the desire a month later,\u201d rather than just doing it impulsively. It was <em>huge<\/em> for us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> Yes; and I think you can even do that with so-called <em>needs<\/em>, too. One of the things that happened to us, while we were paying off debt, was our microwave blew up. We pressed \u201cPause\u201d; and we said, \u201cLet\u2019s just wait 30 days; we don\u2019t have to run out.\u201d I know almost every household has a microwave, but I\u2019m sure my grandma survived just fine without one. [Laughter] We waited 30 days to see if we could work our way around it. Turns out\u2014we decided <em>not<\/em> to buy one, and we still don\u2019t have one to this day.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wait, wait, wait. You cannot <em>live<\/em> without a microwave. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian:<\/strong> I\u2019m glad you\u2019re sitting down for this.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You guys can do that?!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian:<\/strong> Eight years or so?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> Yes; at least, eight years.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> You have to cook something up for like ten whole minutes; wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> I know it\u2019s crazy, right? Yes, we use the oven; or I pop popcorn on the stovetop, which tastes <em>so much<\/em> better anyway.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brian:<\/strong> It does; it does.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cherie:<\/strong> There are plenty of ways to work around it. I think always just pressing \u201cPause,\u201d and pushing back and saying, \u201cAlright; I know that\u2019s what everybody else does, but does it make sense for <em>us<\/em>?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> I just have to wonder how many listeners\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014are motivated, like Dave\u2019s motivated, where they go, \u201cOkay; if I get out of debt, my marriage will be better; and I\u2019ll have spicier romance\u201d; right? Nothing else has worked to try and get them out of debt, but the thought of spicier romance might be enough.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Got to have some motivation. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> To get a copy of the book, <em>Your Money, Your Marriage<\/em>\u2014and I\u2019d say, get a copy of <em>Slaying the Debt Dragon<\/em> and read both of them together\u2014these are great books to help you be thinking about the relationship between your money and your marriage; but also to be thinking about, strategically, \u201cHow do we overcome the mountain that\u2019s in front of us?\u201d We have copies of both books: <em>Your Money, Your Marriage<\/em> and <em>Slaying the Debt Dragon<\/em> in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can go online to order either or both books. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>By the way, Cherie has a personal finance blog; it\u2019s called \u201cQueen of Free\u201d;and we have a link to her blog, again, on our website, FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can order either of the books, or get more information about the blog, when you call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the website: FamilyLifeToday.com; the phone number: 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>We know, for a lot of you, the last several months have been months where you\u2019ve experienced some challenges at home in your relationship\/in your marriage. Some of those challenges may be related to what we\u2019ve talked about today with your finances and debt; but there may be other challenges you\u2019ve been facing that have put a strain on your marriage relationship.<\/p>\n<p>We talked earlier this week with Jeff and Sarah Walton, who shared with us their stories of going through hard times together, as a couple, and how they face the choice of either isolating or pursuing one another. They\u2019ve written a book called <em>Together Through the Storms<\/em> that we\u2019re making available this week to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners, who can help support the ministry with a donation.<\/p>\n<p><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is here because listeners, like you, have made it available for all of us; and we\u2019re asking you to do the same thing. Consider making <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> possible for people in your community\/people all around the world, who are in need of practical biblical help and hope for their marriage and their family. That\u2019s what <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is all about.<\/p>\n<p>If you can make a donation today to support the ongoing work of this ministry, we\u2019d love to send you a copy of Jeff and Sarah Walton\u2019s book, <em>Together Through the Storms<\/em>, as our way of saying, \u201cThank you,\u201d for your ongoing support of this ministry. You can donate online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate\u2014again, the website, FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-358-6329\u20141-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d When you make your donation, be sure to request your copy of the book, <em>Together Through the Storms<\/em>, as our thank-you gift; and we <em>do<\/em> appreciate you.<\/p>\n<p>We hope you\u2019ll join us back again tomorrow when Brian and Cherie Lowe will finish the story they started today and let us know how their marriage is different and how they are handling money differently today. I hope you can be with us for that.<\/p>\n<p>I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a><\/p>\n<p>1<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/306207","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=306207"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=306207"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=306207"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=306207"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=306207"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=306207"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=306207"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}