{"id":306176,"date":"2020-06-11T07:00:05","date_gmt":"2020-06-11T11:00:05","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/is-the-church-really-dying\/"},"modified":"2020-06-11T07:00:05","modified_gmt":"2020-06-11T11:00:05","slug":"is-the-church-really-dying","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/is-the-church-really-dying\/","title":{"rendered":"Is the Church Really Dying?"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>It&#8217;s been implied that Christianity is on the decline. But is it really? Researcher Glenn Stanton doesn&#8217;t think so. Stanton reminds listeners that the Holy Spirit is on the move and always will be.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-06-11.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:30:25","filesize":"27.85M","filesize_raw":"29202844","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2867,2848],"tags":[6907],"podcast_series":[8367],"cwp_profile":[3162],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-306176","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-church-involvement","category-cultural-issues","tag-dying-church","podcast_series-the-myth-of-the-dying-church","cwp_profile-glenn-stanton","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/306176\/is-the-church-really-dying","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/306176\/is-the-church-really-dying","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"pzX9Fn9dEo\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/is-the-church-really-dying\/\">Is the Church Really Dying?<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/is-the-church-really-dying\/embed\/#?secret=pzX9Fn9dEo\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Is the Church Really Dying?&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"pzX9Fn9dEo\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-06-11.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-06-11.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Let\u2019s be honest; we, at times, are reticent to be too bold about our faith; because we\u2019re concerned that, if people know we\u2019re Christians, they\u2019ll marginalize us\/they\u2019ll tune us out. Glenn Stanton says we ought not be concerned about that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>I work with a lot of secular academics in my work. Even around our office\u2014like, \u201cOh, yes, those people hate us\u201d; I don\u2019t find that to be the case. They either don\u2019t know any Christians; so they\u2019ll go, \u201cOh, I love what you guys do,\u201d you know; and they have <em>no<\/em> church experience whatsoever. That\u2019s the thing\u2014people do not have such a negative view of Christians.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, June 11<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You\u2019ll find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. Glenn Stanton joins us today to talk about how we, as individuals, and how we, as a family, can develop confidence and be bolder about what we believe. Stay with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. We did a survey, years ago, asking listeners: \u201cIn the area of parenting, what\u2019s most important to you? Do you need help on conflict resolution, sibling rivalry?\u201d We kind of listed: \u201c\u2026discipline, your kids\u2026\u201d Do you know what the number-one thing was?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u201cThat my kids will follow the faith.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes, it\u2019s spiritual formation for kids; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>It\u2019s the reason why we sometimes get into conversations here about \u201cHow is faith doing in our world?\u201d; because as we raise our kids, we look at some of the indicators and we think: \u201cAre we raising kids in a more hostile culture?\u2014a culture where it\u2019s going to be nearly <em>impossible<\/em> for them to hang onto their faith?\u201d There are some strong headwinds that kids are facing today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>And you\u2019re guessing that every parent and every generation has felt that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes; we have a friend who is with us today to help us understand where things are in the church. Glenn Stanton\u2019s joining us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Glenn, welcome.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Thank you. It\u2019s good to be with you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Glenn, are you going to alleviate our fears today?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Absolutely. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Good.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>We will end up with no fear whatsoever. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>That sounds good to me!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Yes, everybody will be luxuriating. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut no; it\u2019s interesting\u2014what you just said\u2014I mean, to just jump in here\u2014is the phrase, \u201ckids these days.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Every parent has said that. In fact, Adam and Eve\u2014Cain and Abel\u2014right? [Laughter] Yes, things went south pretty quickly.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Glenn gives leadership to the Family Formation Studies at Focus on the Family<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> and has been here before. We talked about a book you wrote called <em>The Ring Makes All the Difference<\/em> that was really a landmark book, I felt.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Was that about winning the Super Bowl?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>No! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>The ring makes all the difference? I\u2019ve been trying to get one of those!\u2014that was 33 seasons when I was. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That was the sequel.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014the sequel. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>It was really a great book about the importance of marriage as opposed to cohabitation and why marriage matters in our culture. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019ve just finished a book called <em>The Myth of the Dying Church: How Christianity Is Actually Thriving in America and in the World<\/em>. People read that subtitle and go: \u201cNo, it\u2019s not! It\u2019s not thriving!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u201cThat\u2019s not what we\u2019ve heard; that\u2019s not what they\u2019re telling us.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We\u2019re hearing about how many are now identifying as atheists, the rise of the nones\u2014you\u2019ve heard all of this. Are we just reading the wrong stuff?\u2014or are is it fake news? What\u2019s the story?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Well, it\u2019s interesting. I mean, I was with a group of apologetics worldview educators down in Mexico; we were doing a conference. I was telling them about my book coming out. They were like, \u201cSo, what about all this other research?\u201d\u2014I mean, all this other research that <em>they<\/em> had been citing\u2014I mean, this is something <em>different<\/em>. I just said, \u201cWell, it\u2019s bad research.\u201d [Laughter] You know, what are you going to say? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe thing is\u2014the problem\u2014and I try to solve it in <em>my<\/em> book\u2014is a lot of these bad news stories just come out of the secular press, but they also come out of the Christian press. They\u2019re based on a research report here or a research report here; they\u2019re typically from organizations that are not academic organizations. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I say, \u201cacademic,\u201d I don\u2019t mean highfalutin\u2019; but sociologists of religion from <em>major<\/em> universities, who study this stuff in and out, and have been doing it for the last 30 years. These sociologists, who just do good research\u2014they come up with very different stories. We think, \u201cOkay, secular\/academic\u2014they\u2019re not going to tell a good story about Christianity.\u201d You know what? They <em>do<\/em>; they\u2019re quite <em>strong<\/em> about it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe book, <em>Myth of the Dying Church<\/em>\u2014I think the <em>big<\/em> thing that it offers is a 30-year <em>view<\/em> of the high points, if you will, of the academic research\/the highs and the lows of what that body of literature says. You take, if you will, kind of the mean conclusion\u2014or the medium\/the <em>general<\/em> conclusion\u2014of what that data has been saying over the last \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t30 years. The conclusion is quite <em>strong<\/em> that the church is bigger today; it\u2019s more <em>influential<\/em> today; it is more <em>vibrant<\/em> today than it really has been <em>ever<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Wow!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>And that is <em>not<\/em> what we\u2019ve been hearing. I mean, what you just said\u2014and I know you know this better than we do\u2014it isn\u2019t just being said in the press, secular. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Pastors like me have stood on the stage and <em>quoted<\/em> that research data, and you\u2019re saying, \u201c\u2026in a wrong way.\u201d Again, it\u2019s almost like the marriage\/divorce myth; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Right; oh, absolutely. I\u2019ve been <em>fighting<\/em> that for a long, long time. But that\u2019s exactly the thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mean, I say a couple of things in the book, tongue-in-cheek: \u201cFor the people who are the people of good news [the gospel], we sure can be attracted to bad news\u201d; right? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>This idea\u2014and I end the book this way, and it really hit me\u2014is, not only is the dying church story bad sociology, it\u2019s bad <em>theology<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Wow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Because it\u2019s like, you know, you think\u2014the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit\u2014not to be disrespectful\u2014but they\u2019re having their meeting, \u201cHow\u2019s it going with the church?\u201d And the Holy Spirit\u2019s like: \u201cI just can\u2019t break through! I mean, it\u2019s not like it\u2019s ever been. I\u2019m just having a hard time convicting people of the truth.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNo! The Holy Spirit is life-giving; He cannot be otherwise. \u201cThe gates of hell\u201d\u2014even\u2014\u201cwill not prevail against My church,\u201d Jesus says.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I\u2019ve heard, for years, \u201cIf you want to know what America\u2019s going to look like in \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t50 years, go to England today, with empty cathedrals and spiritual malaise.\u201d Is that not the trajectory we\u2019re on?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>You know what? Fascinating, and that\u2019s exactly the right question to ask in the beginning.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Bob always asks the right questions. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes, that\u2019s why we\u2019re with him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014always.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>There was some research, and relatively recent, that came out of jointly Harvard University and Indiana University\u2014two sociologists, secular. What they did was\u2014they wanted to test what they call the \u201cSecularization Thesis\u201d; that is, basically: \u201cAs cultures develop politically, economically, technologically, that they turn more secular, like Europe.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey <em>tested<\/em> that in the United States. The way they <em>tested<\/em> it was to look at what they called \u201cvibrant faith,\u201d meaning: attend church more than once a week; really pray, not just pray over your meals, but pray about stuff and expect that it; take the Bible seriously\/authoritatively. They said, \u201cWe are just absolutely amazed that there is <em>no<\/em> decline in that kind of faith.\u201d They say that America is not and doesn\u2019t look like it will be following Europe in any way.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey came out with a follow-up study to that. Basically, they say: \u201cYou know what we\u2019re finding as we look around the world? Europe is the outlier.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Really?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>You look at different places in the world: America, faith is just coming along; it\u2019s not so great in Canada, but they\u2019re more European, even though not geographically; but in China, in the Middle East, in Africa, in South America, faith is <em>exploding<\/em> like crazy. I mean, it\u2019s\u2014and that\u2019s a definitive academic term\u2014\u201cexploding like crazy.\u201d It just is, and the sociologists are finding that to be the truth.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>And when you\u2019re saying that\u2014because the pushback would be: \u201cOkay, it is in the older generation, but not in the new\/in the next generation,\u201d\u2014but you\u2019re saying that\u2019s not true. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>It is <em>not<\/em> true.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>It\u2019s <em>got<\/em> to be; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>And we\u2019re not living in a post-Christian culture in America then.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Well, yes and no. In a way, we can get into this, you know. \u201cIs the church shrinking?\u201d\u2014the answer is \u201cYes,\u201d and \u201cNo.\u201d You have to break it up where it is. \u201cAre we living in a post-Christian culture?\u201d Well, we hear these <em>bad<\/em> things that are happening\u2014I mean, Hollywood in many ways is getting worse, the press is getting worse, academia\u2019s getting worse in some ways. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut if you look at Americans across the board, \u201cNo, it\u2019s not.\u201d I mean, you think about this\u2014in any town, how many churches are boarded up?\u2014gone out of business, the pastors are laid off, youth pastors are laid off. Flying yesterday\u2014in airports, you can find Christian books in any store there. You can find them in Target<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>; you can find them in Walmart<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. You cannot go <em>anywhere<\/em> in the United States where you cannot dial the radio and find about three different Christian radio stations; same thing with TV. I mean, these things are <em>continuing<\/em>. No! Look around you; Christianity is just <em>not<\/em> going out of business like Sears<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> or some of these different places.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I heard Tim Keller talk about the shift this way\u2014he said, \u201cFifty years ago, even among non-Christians, there was a general sense that thinking Christianly about thinking existed.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Secularists had an underlying Christian morality that right and wrong were defined in Christian terms. He said, \u201cThe shift we\u2019ve had has been that, among secularists, there\u2019s no longer an assumption that a Christian way of thinking about things is the case.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>For people of faith who used to, in the culture, be able to go out and say to their neighbors, who don\u2019t go to church, \u201cYou know, that couple shouldn\u2019t be living together; they ought to get married\u201d; and their neighbor would go, \u201cYes, that\u2019s wrong for them to do that.\u201d Well, now it\u2019s like, \u201cWell, what\u2019s wrong with that?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt can feel to us like the world is changing; but what you\u2019re saying is that, among the <em>faithful<\/em>, that hasn\u2019t changed.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>It hasn\u2019t changed; and in some ways, it\u2019s growing. But this is an interesting indicator along those lines too. I\u2019m not disagreeing with what you\u2019re saying, Bob. But you think about when Barack Obama was running for President; he was <em>very<\/em> strong to communicate, \u201cI am a Christian.\u201d Even Donald Trump, you know, \u201cI am a Christian; I\u2019m with you.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhy would they do that if that was no longer, if you will, even fashionable or politically expedient? It\u2019s interesting\u2014Pew [Research Center] tells us that only seven percent of Americans have a wholly negative view of the church. The overwhelming majority of citizens in the United States, secular or not, have a generally high view of the church: that they do a good job of encouraging moral standards, that they do a good job of helping the community, and things like that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSurprisingly, not a majority\/but close to it of atheists and agnostics hold that positive view of Christians.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>That\u2019s really true?!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Because they don\u2019t live on Twitter, any of those people. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes; I mean, you go on there; and you would think,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014we are hated.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014just based on the pushback and the comments, that it isn\u2019t that positive. But you\u2019re saying the research says that actually is still.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>It shows it differently. It\u2019s interesting; because I work with a lot of secular academics in my work. Even around our office, it\u2019s like, \u201cOh yes, those people hate us\u201d; I don\u2019t find that to be the case. They either don\u2019t know about Focus or they don\u2019t know any Christians; so they\u2019ll go: \u201cOh, I love what you guys do! I use the Plugged In things.\u201d They have <em>no<\/em> church experience whatsoever. That\u2019s the thing\u2014is people do not have such a negative view of Christians.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>When I\u2019m out talking to people\u2014and they say, \u201cWhere do you work? What do you do?\u201d\u2014I say, \u201cI work for FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>.\u201d \u201cWhat is FamilyLife?\u201d\u2014these are folks who\u2019ve never heard of us. I say, \u201cWell, we try to help build stronger marriages and families; we think that\u2019s important in the culture.\u201d Almost <em>everybody<\/em> I\u2019m talking to goes, \u201cBoy, we sure need that.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Let me ask you this: \u201cIf they ask what you do and you say, \u2018I\u2019m a pastor,\u2019 what do they say?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right; I don\u2019t get pushback on that either. I mean, people go, \u201cTell me more about your church.\u201d If I\u2019m on an airplane, then they put on their headphones right there. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>We have a son that played in the NFL a little bit. He said, \u201cWhen people asked me what I did and I said, \u2018I\u2019m an NFL player,\u2019\u201d\u2014he said\u2014\u201cit was <em>amazing<\/em> how this conversation would go.\u201d Now he\u2019s a pastor. He said, \u201cIt\u2019s a little different now.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>When they say, \u201cWhat do you do?\u201d and he says, \u201cI\u2019m a pastor,\u201d they kind of turn away.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Right; yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I do feel this, though\u2014tell me, Glenn, if I\u2019m feeling the right thing\u2014it feels like, because I\u2019m a pastor of a bigger church, it feels like there\u2019s a negativity toward <em>mega<\/em> when it comes to church. I might be wrong, but I feel that\u2014like, \u201cI like pastors, and I like churches; but when you\u2019re the bigger churches, we have suspicion.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Yes; now, see, and that\u2019s another thing\u2014again, I\u2019ll go back to the yes and the no\u2014I always say, being a researcher: \u201cThe truth typically lies somewhere in between.\u201d I think what you\u2019re referring to, as a pastor, is un-churched people typically think, \u201cOkay, he has to be a pretty slick operator,\u201d\u2014they think, \u201cTV evangelist\u201d\u2014that kind of thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut in terms of it\u2019s the non-denominational churches that are <em>growing<\/em>\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>\u2014in fact, this guy Barry Kosmin, he is the sociologist that coined the term, \u201cthe nones,\u201d\u2014those who report no particular faith. He\u2019s kind of famous in that world: \u201cHey, there\u2019s that guy that coined the term!\u2019 [Laughter] He\u2019s cool; he\u2019s like the Bono of sociologists in that way, right? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI called him\u2014I called him and talked to him\/interviewed him. He goes: \u201cYou know what, Glenn? One of the things that I was most frustrated about was my research. The nones thing took off.\u201d He goes, \u201cBut what they didn\u2019t report was the nones are <em>not<\/em> the biggest-growing religious or irreligious group; it\u2019s the nons.\u201d I said, \u201cWell, explain that to me.\u201d \u201cThe non-denominational churches\u201d\u2014he said\u2014\u201cI found that <em>that<\/em> is the biggest-<em>growing<\/em> community of religious folks out there in this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Why do you think that is, Glenn?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>I\u2019ll answer it with this. There were some Canadian scholars, and they wanted to look at <em>mainline<\/em> denominations. It\u2019s the mainline denominations that are <em>tanking<\/em>. They [scholars] asked the question, \u201cAre there any mainline churches that <em>are<\/em> growing?\u201d They found a few; and what they found out\u2014and they titled their study \u201cTheology Matters\u201d\u2014and what they found out was mainline churches that: teach the Scripture, that call people to discipleship, that have vibrant worship as if a real God forgave real people of real sin\u2014those churches were growing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think that\u2019s the answer to your question. These churches\u2014people can relate to them: \u201cYou know what? That pastor, this worship; they have small groups\u2014I can really meet God there in a very simple way. This guy\u2014he\u2019s teaching the Scriptures. He\u2019s not compromising; he\u2019s not trying to make it relevant or change it to the modern age.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, those churches that are like: \u201cWell, maybe Jesus <em>wasn\u2019t<\/em> God,\u201d or \u201cMaybe the resurrection was <em>just<\/em> a symbol,\u201d\u2014those churches are <em>hemorrhaging<\/em> members\/they\u2019re <em>leaving<\/em> quicker than they can imagine. It\u2019s the non-denom churches that <em>are<\/em> growing, because they\u2019re preaching and teaching the Word of God. God said, \u201cMy Word will not return void,\u201d\u2014\u201c\u2026will <em>not<\/em> return void.\u201d We\u2019re seeing that <em>exact<\/em> thing today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes; I know that in our city, Detroit, that is what I\u2019m seeing. The mainline churches that are dying\u2014and again, that\u2019s the message out there\u2014they\u2019re all dying. There are some that are hemorrhaging, and they\u2019re being bought and taken over by non-denom churches\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014in a beautiful way\u2014because they\u2019re coming to the non-denominational churches and saying: \u201cWe don\u2019t want this to turn into a business or a club. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Right!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u201c<em>Could<\/em> the gospel continue here? But we are not able to sustain ourselves. Would you can come in and partner?\u201d Actually, it\u2019s been a beautiful thing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cand do what you do.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Is your message to parents, \u201cHey, it\u2019s going to be okay; relax,\u201d <em>or<\/em> is your message, \u201cNo, we need to be on guard, and vigilant, and be concerned; because there\u2019s some drift occurring\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>You know what? Here we go again; it\u2019s both!\u2014[Laughter]\u2014right? It\u2019s: \u201cParents, be vigilant,\u201d\u2014as you guys say all the time. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, parenting is 90 percent just showing up\/being on the ground there. The research is <em>very<\/em>, very clear on this\u2014and I have a whole chapter in the book\u2014that parents, who live a serious Christian life\u2014not a <em>perfect<\/em> Christian life\u2014but you know what? We attend church more than we don\u2019t; we read the Scriptures, not every morning at 7:30, but it\u2019s a part of our life; we pray together; we <em>talk<\/em> about the faith\u2014it\u2019s what the Stantons <em>do<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe research is very clear: those kids, growing up in those homes, are <em>extremely<\/em> likely\u2014some scholars say, \u201cnearly guaranteed\u201d\u2014to carry that faith into adulthood in their own way\/with their own application. I do that different than my parents; you guys are the same way.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>I mean, that\u2019s the nature of things. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut it\u2019s important for us to understand that: \u201cYes, faith is\u2014when we transmit it to the younger generation in a good, faithful\u2014but again, not perfect way; God grades so much on the curve with parenting in that\u2014but if you\u2019re never giving your kids a kind of serious faith, you know what?\u2014they can\u2019t hang onto what they never really had.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Boy, I tell you what, Glenn\u2014I don\u2019t know what you guys [Bob and Ann] are thinking; I\u2019m excited! I mean, when you hear good news\u2014and again, you said earlier, we\u2019re the people of the good news\u2014why are we not preaching good news? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think of this: when you go to church\u2014you\u2019re a typical couple; you go to church, and you sit there and you hear the pastor say, \u201cHey, by the way, you know, the divorce rate in the church is the same as the community; it\u2019s 50 percent,\u201d\u2014you sit there and go: \u201cWell, what am I doing here? This doesn\u2019t help. We\u2019re as bad as everybody else.\u201d Then you find out later that was <em>never<\/em> true.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Right; yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>And now, when you hear this very same thing\u2014the church is not dying\/the kingdom of God is advancing; the gates of hell <em>will not<\/em> prevail\u2014you sit in church, or you just hear this broadcast, you go: \u201cI\u2019m excited! That is good news! I\u2019m going to get involved!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u201cWe\u2019re not losing.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u201cI want to go to church; I want to get involved; I want to help my kids; I\u2019m on a winning team!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>We\u2019ve <em>never<\/em> been on a losing team.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Dave likes to be on a winning team. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Who <em>doesn\u2019t<\/em> like to be on a winning team?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes, exactly.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>It\u2019s interesting; I mean, this is <em>so<\/em> significant in what you\u2019re saying; in that, yes, it is good news. We <em>are<\/em> the people of good news. And it\u2019s good news\u2014not because we\u2019re great marketers; it\u2019s not because we\u2019re relevant; it\u2019s not because our logos in our church and our name is going to one-name churches: Elevate, Forward [Laughter]\u2014things like that\u2014it is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will <em>honor<\/em> churches and places, where Christianity, where the Scriptures, where discipleship, where worship is authentic.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s what we need to know. So yes, the good news is we are led by the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit cannot not be lifegiving.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>God is on the move; He\u2019s never stopped being on the move, and we are on the move with Him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>If you want some good news, read your Bible first\u2014[Laughter]\u2014because that\u2019s the <em>source<\/em> of it; and then get a copy of Glenn\u2019s book, <em>The Myth of the Dying Church<\/em>. That will encourage you that there is a path forward that is a vibrant, faithful path for us to follow. We have copies of the book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. Order from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FLTODAY. Again, the book is called <em>The Myth of the Dying Church: How Christianity Is Actually Thriving in America and in the World<\/em>. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to order; or call 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY,\u201d to get your copy of Glenn\u2019s book.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, I was thinking today about the overlap between ministries like FamilyLife and local churches. We really see ourselves as allies working together to help support the local church in the ongoing ministry that God has called the local church to. We want to provide resources, provide help, be a supplement to the regular spiritual development that happens when people are part of a local church congregation. <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> should never be a substitute for church for you; it should always be an enhancement to your local church experience.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the reasons I say that is because we\u2019ve always said here that, when it comes to financial giving, we believe that your first priority as a Christian should be to support your local church. That\u2019s where you should give <em>first<\/em>. When it comes to supporting ministries like <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, we are <em>so grateful<\/em> for those of you who are able to do that and who <em>choose<\/em> to do that in addition to the support you are providing for your local church. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is listener-dependent. If it weren\u2019t for listeners, like you, supporting this ministry, <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> would not exist. So \u201cThank you,\u201d for those of you who go above and beyond: you give to your local church and then you give to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. We\u2019re so grateful for your investment in the reach of this ministry to help effectively develop godly marriages and families. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you\u2019re a longtime listener, and you\u2019ve never made a donation, after you\u2019ve donated to your local church, you can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com and make a donation there; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate over the phone. We appreciate you. Thanks for coming alongside us and being a part of the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we\u2019re going to talk more about how, as parents, we can be actively engaged in helping our kids develop a strong, resilient faith\u2014the kind of faith that lasts into adulthood. Again, no guarantees on this, because our kids make their own choices, but what is it that God\u2019s calling us to do? We\u2019ll talk more about that tomorrow. I hope you can be with us for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:30:25"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["27.85M"],"filesize_raw":["29202844"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-306176.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-306176.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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been implied that Christianity is on the decline. But is it really? Researcher Glenn Stanton doesn't think so. Stanton reminds listeners that the Holy Spirit is on the move and always will be.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-06-11.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Let\u2019s be honest; we, at times, are reticent to be too bold about our faith; because we\u2019re concerned that, if people know we\u2019re Christians, they\u2019ll marginalize us\/they\u2019ll tune us out. Glenn Stanton says we ought not be concerned about that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>I work with a lot of secular academics in my work. Even around our office\u2014like, \u201cOh, yes, those people hate us\u201d; I don\u2019t find that to be the case. They either don\u2019t know any Christians; so they\u2019ll go, \u201cOh, I love what you guys do,\u201d you know; and they have <em>no<\/em> church experience whatsoever. That\u2019s the thing\u2014people do not have such a negative view of Christians.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, June 11<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You\u2019ll find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. Glenn Stanton joins us today to talk about how we, as individuals, and how we, as a family, can develop confidence and be bolder about what we believe. Stay with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. We did a survey, years ago, asking listeners: \u201cIn the area of parenting, what\u2019s most important to you? Do you need help on conflict resolution, sibling rivalry?\u201d We kind of listed: \u201c\u2026discipline, your kids\u2026\u201d Do you know what the number-one thing was?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u201cThat my kids will follow the faith.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes, it\u2019s spiritual formation for kids; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>It\u2019s the reason why we sometimes get into conversations here about \u201cHow is faith doing in our world?\u201d; because as we raise our kids, we look at some of the indicators and we think: \u201cAre we raising kids in a more hostile culture?\u2014a culture where it\u2019s going to be nearly <em>impossible<\/em> for them to hang onto their faith?\u201d There are some strong headwinds that kids are facing today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>And you\u2019re guessing that every parent and every generation has felt that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes; we have a friend who is with us today to help us understand where things are in the church. Glenn Stanton\u2019s joining us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Glenn, welcome.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Thank you. It\u2019s good to be with you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Glenn, are you going to alleviate our fears today?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Absolutely. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Good.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>We will end up with no fear whatsoever. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>That sounds good to me!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Yes, everybody will be luxuriating. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut no; it\u2019s interesting\u2014what you just said\u2014I mean, to just jump in here\u2014is the phrase, \u201ckids these days.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Every parent has said that. In fact, Adam and Eve\u2014Cain and Abel\u2014right? [Laughter] Yes, things went south pretty quickly.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Glenn gives leadership to the Family Formation Studies at Focus on the Family<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> and has been here before. We talked about a book you wrote called <em>The Ring Makes All the Difference<\/em> that was really a landmark book, I felt.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Was that about winning the Super Bowl?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>No! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>The ring makes all the difference? I\u2019ve been trying to get one of those!\u2014that was 33 seasons when I was. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That was the sequel.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014the sequel. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>It was really a great book about the importance of marriage as opposed to cohabitation and why marriage matters in our culture. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019ve just finished a book called <em>The Myth of the Dying Church: How Christianity Is Actually Thriving in America and in the World<\/em>. People read that subtitle and go: \u201cNo, it\u2019s not! It\u2019s not thriving!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u201cThat\u2019s not what we\u2019ve heard; that\u2019s not what they\u2019re telling us.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We\u2019re hearing about how many are now identifying as atheists, the rise of the nones\u2014you\u2019ve heard all of this. Are we just reading the wrong stuff?\u2014or are is it fake news? What\u2019s the story?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Well, it\u2019s interesting. I mean, I was with a group of apologetics worldview educators down in Mexico; we were doing a conference. I was telling them about my book coming out. They were like, \u201cSo, what about all this other research?\u201d\u2014I mean, all this other research that <em>they<\/em> had been citing\u2014I mean, this is something <em>different<\/em>. I just said, \u201cWell, it\u2019s bad research.\u201d [Laughter] You know, what are you going to say? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe thing is\u2014the problem\u2014and I try to solve it in <em>my<\/em> book\u2014is a lot of these bad news stories just come out of the secular press, but they also come out of the Christian press. They\u2019re based on a research report here or a research report here; they\u2019re typically from organizations that are not academic organizations. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I say, \u201cacademic,\u201d I don\u2019t mean highfalutin\u2019; but sociologists of religion from <em>major<\/em> universities, who study this stuff in and out, and have been doing it for the last 30 years. These sociologists, who just do good research\u2014they come up with very different stories. We think, \u201cOkay, secular\/academic\u2014they\u2019re not going to tell a good story about Christianity.\u201d You know what? They <em>do<\/em>; they\u2019re quite <em>strong<\/em> about it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe book, <em>Myth of the Dying Church<\/em>\u2014I think the <em>big<\/em> thing that it offers is a 30-year <em>view<\/em> of the high points, if you will, of the academic research\/the highs and the lows of what that body of literature says. You take, if you will, kind of the mean conclusion\u2014or the medium\/the <em>general<\/em> conclusion\u2014of what that data has been saying over the last \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t30 years. The conclusion is quite <em>strong<\/em> that the church is bigger today; it\u2019s more <em>influential<\/em> today; it is more <em>vibrant<\/em> today than it really has been <em>ever<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Wow!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>And that is <em>not<\/em> what we\u2019ve been hearing. I mean, what you just said\u2014and I know you know this better than we do\u2014it isn\u2019t just being said in the press, secular. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Pastors like me have stood on the stage and <em>quoted<\/em> that research data, and you\u2019re saying, \u201c\u2026in a wrong way.\u201d Again, it\u2019s almost like the marriage\/divorce myth; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Right; oh, absolutely. I\u2019ve been <em>fighting<\/em> that for a long, long time. But that\u2019s exactly the thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mean, I say a couple of things in the book, tongue-in-cheek: \u201cFor the people who are the people of good news [the gospel], we sure can be attracted to bad news\u201d; right? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>This idea\u2014and I end the book this way, and it really hit me\u2014is, not only is the dying church story bad sociology, it\u2019s bad <em>theology<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Wow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Because it\u2019s like, you know, you think\u2014the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit\u2014not to be disrespectful\u2014but they\u2019re having their meeting, \u201cHow\u2019s it going with the church?\u201d And the Holy Spirit\u2019s like: \u201cI just can\u2019t break through! I mean, it\u2019s not like it\u2019s ever been. I\u2019m just having a hard time convicting people of the truth.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNo! The Holy Spirit is life-giving; He cannot be otherwise. \u201cThe gates of hell\u201d\u2014even\u2014\u201cwill not prevail against My church,\u201d Jesus says.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I\u2019ve heard, for years, \u201cIf you want to know what America\u2019s going to look like in \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t50 years, go to England today, with empty cathedrals and spiritual malaise.\u201d Is that not the trajectory we\u2019re on?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>You know what? Fascinating, and that\u2019s exactly the right question to ask in the beginning.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Bob always asks the right questions. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes, that\u2019s why we\u2019re with him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014always.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>There was some research, and relatively recent, that came out of jointly Harvard University and Indiana University\u2014two sociologists, secular. What they did was\u2014they wanted to test what they call the \u201cSecularization Thesis\u201d; that is, basically: \u201cAs cultures develop politically, economically, technologically, that they turn more secular, like Europe.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey <em>tested<\/em> that in the United States. The way they <em>tested<\/em> it was to look at what they called \u201cvibrant faith,\u201d meaning: attend church more than once a week; really pray, not just pray over your meals, but pray about stuff and expect that it; take the Bible seriously\/authoritatively. They said, \u201cWe are just absolutely amazed that there is <em>no<\/em> decline in that kind of faith.\u201d They say that America is not and doesn\u2019t look like it will be following Europe in any way.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey came out with a follow-up study to that. Basically, they say: \u201cYou know what we\u2019re finding as we look around the world? Europe is the outlier.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Really?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>You look at different places in the world: America, faith is just coming along; it\u2019s not so great in Canada, but they\u2019re more European, even though not geographically; but in China, in the Middle East, in Africa, in South America, faith is <em>exploding<\/em> like crazy. I mean, it\u2019s\u2014and that\u2019s a definitive academic term\u2014\u201cexploding like crazy.\u201d It just is, and the sociologists are finding that to be the truth.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>And when you\u2019re saying that\u2014because the pushback would be: \u201cOkay, it is in the older generation, but not in the new\/in the next generation,\u201d\u2014but you\u2019re saying that\u2019s not true. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>It is <em>not<\/em> true.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>It\u2019s <em>got<\/em> to be; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>And we\u2019re not living in a post-Christian culture in America then.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Well, yes and no. In a way, we can get into this, you know. \u201cIs the church shrinking?\u201d\u2014the answer is \u201cYes,\u201d and \u201cNo.\u201d You have to break it up where it is. \u201cAre we living in a post-Christian culture?\u201d Well, we hear these <em>bad<\/em> things that are happening\u2014I mean, Hollywood in many ways is getting worse, the press is getting worse, academia\u2019s getting worse in some ways. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut if you look at Americans across the board, \u201cNo, it\u2019s not.\u201d I mean, you think about this\u2014in any town, how many churches are boarded up?\u2014gone out of business, the pastors are laid off, youth pastors are laid off. Flying yesterday\u2014in airports, you can find Christian books in any store there. You can find them in Target<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>; you can find them in Walmart<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. You cannot go <em>anywhere<\/em> in the United States where you cannot dial the radio and find about three different Christian radio stations; same thing with TV. I mean, these things are <em>continuing<\/em>. No! Look around you; Christianity is just <em>not<\/em> going out of business like Sears<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> or some of these different places.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I heard Tim Keller talk about the shift this way\u2014he said, \u201cFifty years ago, even among non-Christians, there was a general sense that thinking Christianly about thinking existed.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Secularists had an underlying Christian morality that right and wrong were defined in Christian terms. He said, \u201cThe shift we\u2019ve had has been that, among secularists, there\u2019s no longer an assumption that a Christian way of thinking about things is the case.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>For people of faith who used to, in the culture, be able to go out and say to their neighbors, who don\u2019t go to church, \u201cYou know, that couple shouldn\u2019t be living together; they ought to get married\u201d; and their neighbor would go, \u201cYes, that\u2019s wrong for them to do that.\u201d Well, now it\u2019s like, \u201cWell, what\u2019s wrong with that?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt can feel to us like the world is changing; but what you\u2019re saying is that, among the <em>faithful<\/em>, that hasn\u2019t changed.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>It hasn\u2019t changed; and in some ways, it\u2019s growing. But this is an interesting indicator along those lines too. I\u2019m not disagreeing with what you\u2019re saying, Bob. But you think about when Barack Obama was running for President; he was <em>very<\/em> strong to communicate, \u201cI am a Christian.\u201d Even Donald Trump, you know, \u201cI am a Christian; I\u2019m with you.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhy would they do that if that was no longer, if you will, even fashionable or politically expedient? It\u2019s interesting\u2014Pew [Research Center] tells us that only seven percent of Americans have a wholly negative view of the church. The overwhelming majority of citizens in the United States, secular or not, have a generally high view of the church: that they do a good job of encouraging moral standards, that they do a good job of helping the community, and things like that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSurprisingly, not a majority\/but close to it of atheists and agnostics hold that positive view of Christians.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>That\u2019s really true?!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Because they don\u2019t live on Twitter, any of those people. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes; I mean, you go on there; and you would think,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014we are hated.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014just based on the pushback and the comments, that it isn\u2019t that positive. But you\u2019re saying the research says that actually is still.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>It shows it differently. It\u2019s interesting; because I work with a lot of secular academics in my work. Even around our office, it\u2019s like, \u201cOh yes, those people hate us\u201d; I don\u2019t find that to be the case. They either don\u2019t know about Focus or they don\u2019t know any Christians; so they\u2019ll go: \u201cOh, I love what you guys do! I use the Plugged In things.\u201d They have <em>no<\/em> church experience whatsoever. That\u2019s the thing\u2014is people do not have such a negative view of Christians.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>When I\u2019m out talking to people\u2014and they say, \u201cWhere do you work? What do you do?\u201d\u2014I say, \u201cI work for FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>.\u201d \u201cWhat is FamilyLife?\u201d\u2014these are folks who\u2019ve never heard of us. I say, \u201cWell, we try to help build stronger marriages and families; we think that\u2019s important in the culture.\u201d Almost <em>everybody<\/em> I\u2019m talking to goes, \u201cBoy, we sure need that.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Let me ask you this: \u201cIf they ask what you do and you say, \u2018I\u2019m a pastor,\u2019 what do they say?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right; I don\u2019t get pushback on that either. I mean, people go, \u201cTell me more about your church.\u201d If I\u2019m on an airplane, then they put on their headphones right there. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>We have a son that played in the NFL a little bit. He said, \u201cWhen people asked me what I did and I said, \u2018I\u2019m an NFL player,\u2019\u201d\u2014he said\u2014\u201cit was <em>amazing<\/em> how this conversation would go.\u201d Now he\u2019s a pastor. He said, \u201cIt\u2019s a little different now.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>When they say, \u201cWhat do you do?\u201d and he says, \u201cI\u2019m a pastor,\u201d they kind of turn away.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Right; yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I do feel this, though\u2014tell me, Glenn, if I\u2019m feeling the right thing\u2014it feels like, because I\u2019m a pastor of a bigger church, it feels like there\u2019s a negativity toward <em>mega<\/em> when it comes to church. I might be wrong, but I feel that\u2014like, \u201cI like pastors, and I like churches; but when you\u2019re the bigger churches, we have suspicion.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Yes; now, see, and that\u2019s another thing\u2014again, I\u2019ll go back to the yes and the no\u2014I always say, being a researcher: \u201cThe truth typically lies somewhere in between.\u201d I think what you\u2019re referring to, as a pastor, is un-churched people typically think, \u201cOkay, he has to be a pretty slick operator,\u201d\u2014they think, \u201cTV evangelist\u201d\u2014that kind of thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut in terms of it\u2019s the non-denominational churches that are <em>growing<\/em>\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>\u2014in fact, this guy Barry Kosmin, he is the sociologist that coined the term, \u201cthe nones,\u201d\u2014those who report no particular faith. He\u2019s kind of famous in that world: \u201cHey, there\u2019s that guy that coined the term!\u2019 [Laughter] He\u2019s cool; he\u2019s like the Bono of sociologists in that way, right? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI called him\u2014I called him and talked to him\/interviewed him. He goes: \u201cYou know what, Glenn? One of the things that I was most frustrated about was my research. The nones thing took off.\u201d He goes, \u201cBut what they didn\u2019t report was the nones are <em>not<\/em> the biggest-growing religious or irreligious group; it\u2019s the nons.\u201d I said, \u201cWell, explain that to me.\u201d \u201cThe non-denominational churches\u201d\u2014he said\u2014\u201cI found that <em>that<\/em> is the biggest-<em>growing<\/em> community of religious folks out there in this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Why do you think that is, Glenn?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>I\u2019ll answer it with this. There were some Canadian scholars, and they wanted to look at <em>mainline<\/em> denominations. It\u2019s the mainline denominations that are <em>tanking<\/em>. They [scholars] asked the question, \u201cAre there any mainline churches that <em>are<\/em> growing?\u201d They found a few; and what they found out\u2014and they titled their study \u201cTheology Matters\u201d\u2014and what they found out was mainline churches that: teach the Scripture, that call people to discipleship, that have vibrant worship as if a real God forgave real people of real sin\u2014those churches were growing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think that\u2019s the answer to your question. These churches\u2014people can relate to them: \u201cYou know what? That pastor, this worship; they have small groups\u2014I can really meet God there in a very simple way. This guy\u2014he\u2019s teaching the Scriptures. He\u2019s not compromising; he\u2019s not trying to make it relevant or change it to the modern age.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, those churches that are like: \u201cWell, maybe Jesus <em>wasn\u2019t<\/em> God,\u201d or \u201cMaybe the resurrection was <em>just<\/em> a symbol,\u201d\u2014those churches are <em>hemorrhaging<\/em> members\/they\u2019re <em>leaving<\/em> quicker than they can imagine. It\u2019s the non-denom churches that <em>are<\/em> growing, because they\u2019re preaching and teaching the Word of God. God said, \u201cMy Word will not return void,\u201d\u2014\u201c\u2026will <em>not<\/em> return void.\u201d We\u2019re seeing that <em>exact<\/em> thing today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes; I know that in our city, Detroit, that is what I\u2019m seeing. The mainline churches that are dying\u2014and again, that\u2019s the message out there\u2014they\u2019re all dying. There are some that are hemorrhaging, and they\u2019re being bought and taken over by non-denom churches\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014in a beautiful way\u2014because they\u2019re coming to the non-denominational churches and saying: \u201cWe don\u2019t want this to turn into a business or a club. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Right!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u201c<em>Could<\/em> the gospel continue here? But we are not able to sustain ourselves. Would you can come in and partner?\u201d Actually, it\u2019s been a beautiful thing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cand do what you do.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Is your message to parents, \u201cHey, it\u2019s going to be okay; relax,\u201d <em>or<\/em> is your message, \u201cNo, we need to be on guard, and vigilant, and be concerned; because there\u2019s some drift occurring\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>You know what? Here we go again; it\u2019s both!\u2014[Laughter]\u2014right? It\u2019s: \u201cParents, be vigilant,\u201d\u2014as you guys say all the time. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, parenting is 90 percent just showing up\/being on the ground there. The research is <em>very<\/em>, very clear on this\u2014and I have a whole chapter in the book\u2014that parents, who live a serious Christian life\u2014not a <em>perfect<\/em> Christian life\u2014but you know what? We attend church more than we don\u2019t; we read the Scriptures, not every morning at 7:30, but it\u2019s a part of our life; we pray together; we <em>talk<\/em> about the faith\u2014it\u2019s what the Stantons <em>do<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe research is very clear: those kids, growing up in those homes, are <em>extremely<\/em> likely\u2014some scholars say, \u201cnearly guaranteed\u201d\u2014to carry that faith into adulthood in their own way\/with their own application. I do that different than my parents; you guys are the same way.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>I mean, that\u2019s the nature of things. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut it\u2019s important for us to understand that: \u201cYes, faith is\u2014when we transmit it to the younger generation in a good, faithful\u2014but again, not perfect way; God grades so much on the curve with parenting in that\u2014but if you\u2019re never giving your kids a kind of serious faith, you know what?\u2014they can\u2019t hang onto what they never really had.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Boy, I tell you what, Glenn\u2014I don\u2019t know what you guys [Bob and Ann] are thinking; I\u2019m excited! I mean, when you hear good news\u2014and again, you said earlier, we\u2019re the people of the good news\u2014why are we not preaching good news? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think of this: when you go to church\u2014you\u2019re a typical couple; you go to church, and you sit there and you hear the pastor say, \u201cHey, by the way, you know, the divorce rate in the church is the same as the community; it\u2019s 50 percent,\u201d\u2014you sit there and go: \u201cWell, what am I doing here? This doesn\u2019t help. We\u2019re as bad as everybody else.\u201d Then you find out later that was <em>never<\/em> true.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Right; yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>And now, when you hear this very same thing\u2014the church is not dying\/the kingdom of God is advancing; the gates of hell <em>will not<\/em> prevail\u2014you sit in church, or you just hear this broadcast, you go: \u201cI\u2019m excited! That is good news! I\u2019m going to get involved!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u201cWe\u2019re not losing.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u201cI want to go to church; I want to get involved; I want to help my kids; I\u2019m on a winning team!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>We\u2019ve <em>never<\/em> been on a losing team.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Dave likes to be on a winning team. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>Who <em>doesn\u2019t<\/em> like to be on a winning team?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes, exactly.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Glenn: <\/strong>It\u2019s interesting; I mean, this is <em>so<\/em> significant in what you\u2019re saying; in that, yes, it is good news. We <em>are<\/em> the people of good news. And it\u2019s good news\u2014not because we\u2019re great marketers; it\u2019s not because we\u2019re relevant; it\u2019s not because our logos in our church and our name is going to one-name churches: Elevate, Forward [Laughter]\u2014things like that\u2014it is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will <em>honor<\/em> churches and places, where Christianity, where the Scriptures, where discipleship, where worship is authentic.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s what we need to know. So yes, the good news is we are led by the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit cannot not be lifegiving.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>God is on the move; He\u2019s never stopped being on the move, and we are on the move with Him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>If you want some good news, read your Bible first\u2014[Laughter]\u2014because that\u2019s the <em>source<\/em> of it; and then get a copy of Glenn\u2019s book, <em>The Myth of the Dying Church<\/em>. That will encourage you that there is a path forward that is a vibrant, faithful path for us to follow. We have copies of the book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. Order from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FLTODAY. Again, the book is called <em>The Myth of the Dying Church: How Christianity Is Actually Thriving in America and in the World<\/em>. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to order; or call 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY,\u201d to get your copy of Glenn\u2019s book.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, I was thinking today about the overlap between ministries like FamilyLife and local churches. We really see ourselves as allies working together to help support the local church in the ongoing ministry that God has called the local church to. We want to provide resources, provide help, be a supplement to the regular spiritual development that happens when people are part of a local church congregation. <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> should never be a substitute for church for you; it should always be an enhancement to your local church experience.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the reasons I say that is because we\u2019ve always said here that, when it comes to financial giving, we believe that your first priority as a Christian should be to support your local church. That\u2019s where you should give <em>first<\/em>. When it comes to supporting ministries like <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, we are <em>so grateful<\/em> for those of you who are able to do that and who <em>choose<\/em> to do that in addition to the support you are providing for your local church. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is listener-dependent. If it weren\u2019t for listeners, like you, supporting this ministry, <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> would not exist. So \u201cThank you,\u201d for those of you who go above and beyond: you give to your local church and then you give to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. We\u2019re so grateful for your investment in the reach of this ministry to help effectively develop godly marriages and families. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you\u2019re a longtime listener, and you\u2019ve never made a donation, after you\u2019ve donated to your local church, you can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com and make a donation there; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate over the phone. We appreciate you. Thanks for coming alongside us and being a part of the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we\u2019re going to talk more about how, as parents, we can be actively engaged in helping our kids develop a strong, resilient faith\u2014the kind of faith that lasts into adulthood. Again, no guarantees on this, because our kids make their own choices, but what is it that God\u2019s calling us to do? We\u2019ll talk more about that tomorrow. I hope you can be with us for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. 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