{"id":306084,"date":"2020-06-09T07:00:04","date_gmt":"2020-06-09T11:00:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/facing-up-to-abuse\/"},"modified":"2024-10-08T10:39:03","modified_gmt":"2024-10-08T14:39:03","slug":"facing-up-to-abuse","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/facing-up-to-abuse\/","title":{"rendered":"Facing Up to Abuse"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Pamela Ronzheimer, joined by her husband Bill, didn&#8217;t realize she had scar tissue on her soul from past sexual abuse until she started sharing her pain with Bill and others. A pastor, Bill says he listened to Pamela but didn&#8217;t fully understand the depth of her pain. Pamela sought counseling, and Bill admits he wasn&#8217;t as supportive as he should have been. Eight years crept by without Pamela getting much help. As Pamela began to sink deeper into despair, she tells how their once happy marriage became hell on earth.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li fetchpriority=\"high\"><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Pamela Ronzheimer, joined by her husband Bill, didn&#8217;t realize she had scar tissue on her soul from past sexual abuse until she started sharing her pain with Bill and others. Pamela tells how their once happy marriage became hell on earth.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-06-09.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:26:37","filesize":"24.37M","filesize_raw":"25554928","date_recorded":"2020-06-09 07:00:04","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2860,2873],"tags":[4374],"podcast_series":[8366],"cwp_profile":[9629],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-306084","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-hardship-and-suffering","category-mental-and-emotional-issues","tag-sexual-abuse","podcast_series-help-my-wife-is-a-survivor-of-sexual-abuse","cwp_profile-bill-and-pamela-ronzheimer","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/306084\/facing-up-to-abuse","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/306084\/facing-up-to-abuse","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"0uhy3VSAH9\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/facing-up-to-abuse\/\">Facing Up to Abuse<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/facing-up-to-abuse\/embed\/#?secret=0uhy3VSAH9\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Facing Up to Abuse&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"0uhy3VSAH9\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-06-09.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-06-09.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Bill Ronzheimer had been married for many years; he was a local church pastor when his wife told him that, as a child, she had been sexually abused many times. Bill was committed to doing whatever he needed to do so his wife could get help; but before long, he realized she wasn\u2019t the only one who needed help.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> There was obviously stuff in my life that needed to be dealt with, and pride was among them. With the congregation, I shared with them\u2014and this was with a doctor\u2019s advice\u2014it was turning out to be the turning point in our lives\/the defining moment. As much as Pamela needed help, I needed help. The difference was she knew she needed help; I didn\u2019t realize where I was.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, June 9<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I\u2019m Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. We\u2019ll hear today from Bill and Pamela Ronzheimer about the very difficult, glorious, liberating journey that God took both of them on in their marriage. Stay with us.<\/p>\n<p>And welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I feel like we need to say to those of you, who are listening: \u201cWhat we\u2019re going to be talking about today is going to hit home for some of you on a profound, emotional level. Some of you, we\u2019re talking about your story today as we talk about the experience of childhood sexual abuse and how that affects your life, and your marriage, and all that goes on. Some of you, who are listening, have never told this to <em>anybody<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019ve kept this hidden, and you\u2019ve shared that this was <em>your<\/em> story. You were\/how old were you when you were abused?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> It started around three\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and continued for years?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014probably until around nine or ten.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Who was the first person you told?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think it was <em>Dave<\/em> when we were dating.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, in your growing up, you didn\u2019t tell Mom; you didn\u2019t tell Dad.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> No.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> You didn\u2019t tell a girlfriend.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> No; I don\u2019t think I realized the shame, and embarrassment, and the weight of that\u2014that you carry. I just pushed it down; and when things seemed better, I thought, \u201cWho wants to bring that up?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> You\u2019ve already shared with us that, when you did tell Dave, Dave was kind of like, \u201cOh, that\u2019s interesting.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; well, I think I had that attitude: \u201cHey; just so you know\u2014I had some sexual abuse happen when I was younger; but I feel like God has healed me, and I feel good.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> If I remember correctly, it was\u2014the conversation was over in a couple of minutes. I was like, \u201cOkay.\u201d I had <em>no<\/em> concept\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014of what this meant\/what it would mean for our future marriage\u2014that came later. It was just\u2014so part of me is like, \u201cI\u2019m glad we\u2019re talking about this today. I\u2019m <em>really<\/em> glad, because we\u2019re going to give people hope.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> And I would say this: \u201cIf <em>you<\/em> haven\u2019t been affected by this, someone you know has been\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cbecause it really does hit one of three girls.\u201d We are <em>all<\/em> affected by this in one way or another.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Bill and Pamela Ronzheimer are joining us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Guys, welcome back.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> You guys have started talking to people about this and sharing with folks. You\u2019ve got a ministry called Marriage Reconstruction Ministries; and this is really at the heart of how you\u2019re ministering to couples in marriage. Bill, you\u2019ve written a book called <em>Help, My Wife Is a Survivor of Sexual Abuse<\/em>. You are an adjunct professor at Northwestern University; you were a pastor for 39 years. The two of you have been married for more than four decades and have got two adult kids and grandkids.<\/p>\n<p>Your decision to be public about this issue really came out of having to deal with it in the context of your marriage\/deal with it privately first. For listeners, who didn\u2019t hear your whole story, you were abused by a [principal]; and that was during elementary school. It continued while you were in elementary school. You tried to share this with your parents\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and tried to share it with some friends.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Nobody really came around and said, \u201cThis is serious.\u201d So you began to think, \u201cWell, maybe, it\u2019s not that big a deal,\u201d\u2014didn\u2019t share it with your husband until you\u2019d been married for ten years.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Correct.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> At the ten-year mark, somebody said, \u201cHow can I pray for you?\u201d You said, \u201cI was abused sexually.\u201d You were surprised that you said it, because you hadn\u2019t even put words like that to it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Absolutely had never said it out loud before.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Bill, you were stunned because you had no knowledge that this was a part of your wife\u2019s past.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes; I\u2019m not even sure I could even say \u201cstunned,\u201d though; because I was ignorant. I just didn\u2019t know what that was going to mean or what it meant for her.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> And you went on, from there, thinking, \u201cWell, it\u2019s out; and we\u2019ll share about this,\u201d without thinking, \u201cThere\u2019s probably some scar tissue left on my soul\u201d; right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t know that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> I just thought that, \u201cI think I need some professional help.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, it\u2019s interesting, Bob; you said there\u2019s a lot of scar tissue. I would say it\u2019s not scar tissue yet. I would say it\u2019s more infection\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Oh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014at that point, because there is no healing that has taken place yet.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good analogy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> It\u2019s like an abscess that\u2019s under the skin that you haven\u2019t seen yet.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> Pamela realized that, and I\u2019m continuing on with my life. It\u2019s all about me, still, at this point.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> So cute. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> She started asking me, \u201cYou know, I need more help,\u201d \u201cI need a counselor.\u201d Let me set some context here, for those of you to whom my voice might sound young. I\u2019m not young!\u2014you know? [Laughter] I\u2019ve been in ministry a long time. We\u2019re going back to some years where, for some segments of the Christian church, counseling had a\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> \u2014stigma to it. As a pastor, to have my wife go to a counselor and somehow let that get out in the open, it was <em>unthinkable<\/em>\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> \u2014to me, at the time, given the context of things; <em>but<\/em> I do have personal responsibility here. I was ignorant, and I was arrogant. I really did not listen to Pamela. I did not support her <em>at all<\/em> in the help that she needed, so <em>eight years<\/em> went by like this.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> Now, God has a way of bringing some things to\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014to the surface?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> \u2014to the surface, and He did. Amazingly, I ended up going into counseling after those eight years as well; so joke\u2019s on me. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> No; when we had been married for 18 years, I was 39 years old. A person, who had hurt me, asked for forgiveness; and the pain of the sexual abuse was like a tsunami. Immediately, I stopped eating; I cried constantly; and my behavior became extremely erratic. We would argue\u2014I did not know that the anger towards my abuser was being aimed at Bill. When I would perceive that he had done something, where I didn\u2019t trust him, I just was like a lunatic.<\/p>\n<p>Where our home had been one of peace and calm, for that six weeks, it became like hell on earth. I do remember there were a couple of instances\u2014like for one\u2014Bill brought me flowers. I took the flowers\u2014and in my mind, the story was: \u201cIf you think those flowers are going to help me, you are <em>wrong<\/em>.\u201d I just threw them across the room.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Another time\u2014I was too upset to be able to keep talking, so I grabbed the keys from the\u2014we were on the second floor of our upstairs\/downstairs apartment\u2014and went tearing down the stairs to drive away, in a rage, screaming back to Bill, \u201cYou explain this to the girls!\u201d They were in eighth and ninth grade.<\/p>\n<p>Our marriage, for the next\u2014I\u2019d say four or five years\u2014<em>was miserable<\/em>: full of shame and chaos. I ended up, at the end of the six weeks, in a mental hospital. We found a doctor, who was a Christian, who had a lot of experience with trauma and sexual abuse. He admitted me; I found that that was a very safe place to be for those four weeks.<\/p>\n<p>The first night that I was in the hospital on the psychiatric floor, I had begged my doctor to give me a private room and to put it far away\u2014that little piece of me that likes aloneness\u2014he did it. I\u2019m at the corner of the unit, and the door\u2019s shut. I had a conversation with God; and it went like this, <em>loud<\/em>\u2014first of all, I was <em>loud<\/em>\u2014I said, \u201cGod, if You are ever able to take away this pain, I will <em>never<\/em> <em>ever<\/em> let You use me again to help another person.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Now, wait; wait: \u201cIf You\u2019re able to take it away, I\u2019ll <em>never<\/em> let You\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> \u201c\u2026<em>never<\/em> let You use me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> That\u2019s like: \u201cMake me better, and I\u2019ll quit serving You\u201d?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> It wasn\u2019t that I would quit serving Him; but first of all, I didn\u2019t think He could take that deep pain away. If He could, there was no way I was going to let Him use <em>me<\/em> to help anybody else.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014because?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> The pain was <em>so great<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> In my mind, at that moment as I was speaking out loud\u2014because I do pray out loud, even if it\u2019s quiet mumbling, to stay focused when I pray. That was sort of one of the effects of the abuse that I never knew; and that is I can\u2019t\u2014there is a lot of activity in my brain.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> So if I want to pray, I have to speak. I finished by saying, \u201cGod, how could You love a little girl, and watch that happen, and not do anything?\u201d Now, all the time that I\u2019m saying <em>those<\/em> words, I am also saying, \u201cI know You\u2019re there.\u201d I was on the third floor, and I faced Lake Michigan; so I could see the sunrise every morning.<\/p>\n<p>For those four weeks, I would get up before dawn, which is\u2014Bill would know\u2014I mean, you don\u2019t see me before 11 am if I can choose. [Laughter] I would get up before dawn, throw up the windows, and sit on my bed and watch the sun rise over Lake Michigan, thinking, \u201cIf God can keep the universe running, I know He sees what\u2019s going on in our lives.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Then Bill can tell\u2014we immediately started reading Psalms together in that dark time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Before you talk about the Psalms, though, you connected this erratic behavior\u2014this six weeks of what we would look at and say, \u201cShe had a nervous breakdown\u201d\u2014right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> That\u2019s what I had.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> You were connecting that to your abuse?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> The idea that the pastor\u2019s wife is going to the psych ward?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s where God started breaking me. There was stuff in my life that needed to be dealt with, and pride was among them. With the congregation, I shared with them\u2014and this was with the doctor\u2019s advice\u2014he didn\u2019t want everything revealed at once. He said, \u201cJust let your people know that she\u2019s reached complete exhaustion, physically, and just needs this time for emotional rest.\u201d That became the explanation. By the time a year had passed, we had shared everything with the congregation.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> At the time she was in the hospital, I gave that limited explanation, which I\u2019m sure raised a lot of questions in people; but for some reason, God was enabling me to be okay with that at the time because I knew that this\u2014well, I did not know\u2014but it was turning out to be the turning point in our lives\/the defining moment. As much as Pamela needed help, I needed help. The difference was she knew she needed help; I didn\u2019t realize where I was.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> How did that journey take place\u2014I mean, you\u2019re getting help.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> \u2014which is typical, you know. If you\u2019ve been abused, and you go to a counselor, they have been trained to a good degree to know what to do with you; but there was no one for my daughters or for Bill.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> I was assigned to a different counselor in the same clinic. It bothered me a little bit; I thought, \u201cShouldn\u2019t we be going to the same counselor?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> I understand it, now, why. I was just talking to another husband the other day, whose wife is a survivor. He said, \u201cI want to get us into marriage counseling together.\u201d I said: \u201cLook, you\u2019re already in individual counseling; so is she. Keep it that way for now; because I know that there are things, within the husband, that need to be addressed.\u201d There were certainly things in me.<\/p>\n<p>One of the things that occurs in the family system, where abuse has occurred, is that the survivor becomes labeled as the identified patient. She\u2019s the one\u2014or if the husband\u2019s the one who has been abused, he\u2019s the one\u2014that has the problems. The family system kind of buys into that, but that\u2019s a fallacy. I had deep issues that needed to be dealt with; and as I sat down for counseling, eventually, those things came to the forefront and were dealt with.<\/p>\n<p>We needed healing in our marriage; yes; but we were two wounded people, who needed God\u2019s individual work in us first, and then the marriage could come together again.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Bill, what were your issues that needed to come up and be healed?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014besides ignorance and arrogance, which you already said. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Pride. You\u2019ve got a whole list\u00a0 of them there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> Pride goes pretty deep\u2014the controlling. You know, there were temptations that I was not dealing with well. I wasn\u2019t proving myself to be trustworthy to Pamela. There were ways in which I was drawn, lustfully, outside of marriage in thought life, and even desiring\/wishing, and all of these things that were so privately held within me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> This is so common with those of us that have been sexually abused. We\u2019re hypersensitive and aware of those little nuances, and we have had to live our entire life watching for signs of safety or threat. I would recognize the lack of safety; and when we would try to discuss it ourselves, well, that just turned into a big atomic bomb. The counselor was able to sort that out in a much healthier way than I would have ever been able to do for Bill.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> How were you different at the end of four weeks in the psych ward than you had been when you went in?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Well, first of all, I had been put on some medication that sort of brought the anxiety to a duller roar.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> My doctor was reminding me that I was going to get through it, and\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and that was helpful?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> It was\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> \u2014because all I could think of, from the time I was very little, I always had this belief system\u2014and I don\u2019t know where it came from other than abuse\u2014\u201cIf I died, nobody would cry.\u201d Then I would cry, just silently; but I could remember the tears being warm on my cheek, and my pillow being soaking wet, thinking, \u201cNobody will cry if I die.\u201d Then, as I got older and I had shared about the abuse, and the pain started to hit for real; then I wanted to die.<\/p>\n<p>At the end of that four weeks, I thought\u2014the doctors said, \u201cYou\u2019ll need long-term therapy,\u201d\u2014in my mind, that meant nine months; because I thought, \u201cIt\u2019s a long time when you are pregnant\u2014nine months.\u201d [Laughter] That\u2019s truly what I thought. I thought, \u201cAt the end of nine months, we\u2019ll be through this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Well, at the end of nine months, I was seeing my doctor, maybe two or three times a week, crying for an hour and going home, screaming the whole drive home; because I didn\u2019t know why. I just was screaming, because I was still hurting. That went on for several years. After a year\u2019s time, I felt very suicidal at the anniversary of that hospitalization; I was put back in the hospital. That happened another time the next year; and that, also, was the time of year when the abuse had happened.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Pamela, can you share: \u201cWhat was going on in your mind? Were you <em>reliving<\/em> what had happened to you? What kind of battle were you facing?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> I think the biggest battle was I was fighting for my life to stay alive to find out what God was going to do. It wasn\u2019t even that I would replay the actual abuse as much as my nightmares were dragging me into hell. Then, to wake up and have to fight Satan with my mind and Scripture, I was exhausted. I\u2019m telling you\u2014I just had card after card\u2014like what I brought today.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes, what were some of your Scriptures that just got you through?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> I would read things like this\u2014Isaiah 46:3: \u201cI have created you and cared for you since you were born. I will be your God through all your lifetime. Yes, even when your hair is white with age.\u201d It didn\u2019t say anything about dying it and bleaching it; right? [Laughter] I have white hair, just so you know. \u201cI made you, and I will care for you. I will carry you along and be your Savior.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I would speak truth, and it was years of doing that. Then, eventually, I would be able to say\u2014when I would have a thought: \u201cYou\u2019d be better off dead,\u201d \u201cYour girls would do better,\u201d\u2014I would be able say out loud: \u201cThat is a lie! God has me; I am His. It is a lie.\u201d I pretty much do that every morning before I get into my day. I don\u2019t memorize the things that I speak, because I don\u2019t want them to ever be just done by rote. I actually just sit with my cards and read them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> I want you to help me, as a husband, because, like you, I would think nine months should fix this. For you to say \u201cyears and years,\u201d and you have to go back a couple of times to the hospital\u2014as you\u2019re telling this story, I\u2019m <em>not<\/em> thinking, \u201cBoy, there is something really wrong with Pamela,\u201d\u2014I\u2019m thinking, \u201cThere is something really wrong with <em>me<\/em> in thinking this should be over in a few months.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> Oh, can I answer that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> It wasn\u2019t until the 1970s that clinical psychologists were beginning to recognize the long-term effects of sexual abuse. Then, in the \u201890s, they began to recognize that, as they were hearing the stories of war veterans coming back from war and the stories of sexual abuse survivors, that the long-term effects they were hearing were very similar; but there is an extra complexity thrown in for survivors of sexual abuse. It\u2019s called complex trauma. For a war veteran, you <em>expect<\/em> the enemy to be shooting at you; you don\u2019t want it, but you <em>expect<\/em> it. For a survivor, it\u2019s the person, who is supposed to be their caregiver\u2014not an enemy\u2014that is the one who is abusing them. It becomes a very complex situation.<\/p>\n<p>Here is my answer to your question: \u201cWe would <em>never<\/em> say to a war veteran, \u2018Why can\u2019t you just get over it?\u2019\u201d It would be unthinkable to us; and we need to take on that same attitude for survivors, whether they be male or female survivors of sexual abuse. If anybody wants to get over it, <em>they do<\/em>; but it is a process that, for some reason, God has chosen to use to work some deeper good into our lives.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019m thinking there may be as many women who are interested in reading your book as there are husbands. You wrote this for husbands: <em>Help, My Wife Is a Survivor of Sexual Abuse<\/em>. I\u2019m guessing a lot of wives are going to say, \u201cI want to see what you are telling the husbands in this book.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> That book addresses ten questions husbands have that, out of my research, I began hearing these questions over and over again.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I had every single one of those ten.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> Wow; Pamela would be quick to say: \u201cYou know what? Those are my questions too.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cWhat\u2019s a normal marriage?\u201d \u201cWhen do I get my wife back?\u201d \u201cShould I stay, or should I go?\u201d \u201cWhy doesn\u2019t God heal my wife?\u201d \u201cWhen will this be over?\u201d \u201cWhy can\u2019t she just get over it?\u201d Those are the questions you are addressing in the book. I\u2019d encourage any husband, whose wife experienced sexual abuse\u2014and again, the statistics that we\u2019ve seen are one in three wives has experienced some kind of direct sexual abuse as a child\u2014get a copy of this book. Read through it yourself\/read through it with your wife; enter into what has to have been a significant trauma for her, and be the husband God has called you to be here.<\/p>\n<p>The book we\u2019re talking about is called <em>Help, My Wife Is a Survivor of Sexual Abuse<\/em> by Bill Ronzheimer. You can go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to get your copy; or call to order: 1-800-FL-TODAY is our number. Again, the title of the book is <em>Help, My Wife Is a Survivor of Sexual Abuse<\/em> by Bill Ronzheimer. Order online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call to order: 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>You know, as we have had this conversation today about how important it is for us to invite others into the challenges we\u2019re facing\u2014to have a safe community of people, who can support us as we go through difficult times\/as we process what\u2019s going on in our lives\u2014I was thinking about many of you, as listeners, who have gotten in touch with us and asked us to pray for you. And we do that regularly. We got an email from a listener recently who said, \u201cPray for my marriage, for my children, our finances, for my physical and mental health.\u201d Somebody else said, \u201cPray for my anxiety during this difficult season.\u201d Somebody else said, \u201cPray for the restoration of my marriage and my family.\u201d Somebody else said, \u201cWe\u2019re trying to have children; the doctors say we can\u2019t. We\u2019re trusting God and seeking His direction.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So many burdens that people are experiencing, and so many of us need a community we can connect with. And to the extent we can be a part of that community with you, we want to do that. <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> exists to help effectively develop godly marriages and families. We do that by providing you programs like <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. We do that through the resources we develop, our website, our events; but we also do that by connecting with you as listeners. So as you have prayer requests, we are here for you\/want to pray for you.<\/p>\n<p>We want to say a special word of thanks today to those of you who support the work of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> on an ongoing basis. Our Legacy Partners, who every month, help us cover the cost of producing and syndicating this radio program and doing all that we\u2019re doing here at <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>\u2014we are grateful for you.<\/p>\n<p>If you are a longtime listener\/you\u2019ve never made a donation\u2014or if you\u2019d like to become a monthly Legacy Partner\/join the team that makes <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> possible for so many people every day\u2014you can do that, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY and just say, \u201cI\u2019d like to be a Legacy Partner, part of the FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> team.\u201d We look forward to hearing from you.<\/p>\n<p>Now, tomorrow, we want to talk about the hope and the healing that is available for people, who have been down this dark road\/who have experienced this kind of evil. Bill and Pamela Ronzheimer will be back with us again tomorrow. I hope you can be back as well.<\/p>\n<p>I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a><\/p>\n<p>1<\/p>\n"],"duration":["00:26:37"],"show_notes":["<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=95\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=95<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all that's available on the\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a>.\u00a0\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Have the FamilyLife Today<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>\u00a0podcast and resources helped you?\u00a0 Consider\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/legacy-partner\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">becoming a Legacy Partner<\/a>, a monthly supporter of FamilyLife.\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/legacy\">https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/legacy<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n"],"filesize":["24.37M"],"filesize_raw":["25554928"],"_edit_lock":["1728398352:47000"],"_edit_last":["47000"],"theme_header_position":["Sticky"],"post_header_is_sticky":["default"],"is_header_overlay":["0"],"episode_type":["audio"],"date_recorded":["2020-06-09 07:00:04"],"enclosure":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-06-09.mp3"],"_seopress_redirections_type":["301"],"_seopress_redirections_logged_status":["both"],"_seopress_analysis_target_kw":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-306084.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-306084.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top 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Ronzheimer, joined by her husband Bill, didn't realize she had scar tissue on her soul from past sexual abuse until she started sharing her pain with Bill and others. Pamela tells how their once happy marriage became hell on earth.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=95\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=95<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all that's available on the\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a>.\u00a0\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Have the FamilyLife Today<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>\u00a0podcast and resources helped you?\u00a0 Consider\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/donate.familylife.com\/legacy-partner\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">becoming a Legacy Partner<\/a>, a monthly supporter of FamilyLife.\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/legacy\">https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/legacy<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-06-09.pdf","transcript_content":"<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Bill Ronzheimer had been married for many years; he was a local church pastor when his wife told him that, as a child, she had been sexually abused many times. Bill was committed to doing whatever he needed to do so his wife could get help; but before long, he realized she wasn\u2019t the only one who needed help.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> There was obviously stuff in my life that needed to be dealt with, and pride was among them. With the congregation, I shared with them\u2014and this was with a doctor\u2019s advice\u2014it was turning out to be the turning point in our lives\/the defining moment. As much as Pamela needed help, I needed help. The difference was she knew she needed help; I didn\u2019t realize where I was.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, June 9<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I\u2019m Bob Lepine. You can find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. We\u2019ll hear today from Bill and Pamela Ronzheimer about the very difficult, glorious, liberating journey that God took both of them on in their marriage. Stay with us.<\/p>\n<p>And welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I feel like we need to say to those of you, who are listening: \u201cWhat we\u2019re going to be talking about today is going to hit home for some of you on a profound, emotional level. Some of you, we\u2019re talking about your story today as we talk about the experience of childhood sexual abuse and how that affects your life, and your marriage, and all that goes on. Some of you, who are listening, have never told this to <em>anybody<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019ve kept this hidden, and you\u2019ve shared that this was <em>your<\/em> story. You were\/how old were you when you were abused?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> It started around three\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and continued for years?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014probably until around nine or ten.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Who was the first person you told?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think it was <em>Dave<\/em> when we were dating.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, in your growing up, you didn\u2019t tell Mom; you didn\u2019t tell Dad.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> No.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> You didn\u2019t tell a girlfriend.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> No; I don\u2019t think I realized the shame, and embarrassment, and the weight of that\u2014that you carry. I just pushed it down; and when things seemed better, I thought, \u201cWho wants to bring that up?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> You\u2019ve already shared with us that, when you did tell Dave, Dave was kind of like, \u201cOh, that\u2019s interesting.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; well, I think I had that attitude: \u201cHey; just so you know\u2014I had some sexual abuse happen when I was younger; but I feel like God has healed me, and I feel good.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> If I remember correctly, it was\u2014the conversation was over in a couple of minutes. I was like, \u201cOkay.\u201d I had <em>no<\/em> concept\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014of what this meant\/what it would mean for our future marriage\u2014that came later. It was just\u2014so part of me is like, \u201cI\u2019m glad we\u2019re talking about this today. I\u2019m <em>really<\/em> glad, because we\u2019re going to give people hope.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> And I would say this: \u201cIf <em>you<\/em> haven\u2019t been affected by this, someone you know has been\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cbecause it really does hit one of three girls.\u201d We are <em>all<\/em> affected by this in one way or another.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Bill and Pamela Ronzheimer are joining us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Guys, welcome back.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> You guys have started talking to people about this and sharing with folks. You\u2019ve got a ministry called Marriage Reconstruction Ministries; and this is really at the heart of how you\u2019re ministering to couples in marriage. Bill, you\u2019ve written a book called <em>Help, My Wife Is a Survivor of Sexual Abuse<\/em>. You are an adjunct professor at Northwestern University; you were a pastor for 39 years. The two of you have been married for more than four decades and have got two adult kids and grandkids.<\/p>\n<p>Your decision to be public about this issue really came out of having to deal with it in the context of your marriage\/deal with it privately first. For listeners, who didn\u2019t hear your whole story, you were abused by a [principal]; and that was during elementary school. It continued while you were in elementary school. You tried to share this with your parents\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and tried to share it with some friends.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Nobody really came around and said, \u201cThis is serious.\u201d So you began to think, \u201cWell, maybe, it\u2019s not that big a deal,\u201d\u2014didn\u2019t share it with your husband until you\u2019d been married for ten years.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Correct.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> At the ten-year mark, somebody said, \u201cHow can I pray for you?\u201d You said, \u201cI was abused sexually.\u201d You were surprised that you said it, because you hadn\u2019t even put words like that to it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Absolutely had never said it out loud before.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Bill, you were stunned because you had no knowledge that this was a part of your wife\u2019s past.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes; I\u2019m not even sure I could even say \u201cstunned,\u201d though; because I was ignorant. I just didn\u2019t know what that was going to mean or what it meant for her.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> And you went on, from there, thinking, \u201cWell, it\u2019s out; and we\u2019ll share about this,\u201d without thinking, \u201cThere\u2019s probably some scar tissue left on my soul\u201d; right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t know that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> I just thought that, \u201cI think I need some professional help.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, it\u2019s interesting, Bob; you said there\u2019s a lot of scar tissue. I would say it\u2019s not scar tissue yet. I would say it\u2019s more infection\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Oh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014at that point, because there is no healing that has taken place yet.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good analogy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> It\u2019s like an abscess that\u2019s under the skin that you haven\u2019t seen yet.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> Pamela realized that, and I\u2019m continuing on with my life. It\u2019s all about me, still, at this point.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> So cute. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> She started asking me, \u201cYou know, I need more help,\u201d \u201cI need a counselor.\u201d Let me set some context here, for those of you to whom my voice might sound young. I\u2019m not young!\u2014you know? [Laughter] I\u2019ve been in ministry a long time. We\u2019re going back to some years where, for some segments of the Christian church, counseling had a\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> \u2014stigma to it. As a pastor, to have my wife go to a counselor and somehow let that get out in the open, it was <em>unthinkable<\/em>\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> \u2014to me, at the time, given the context of things; <em>but<\/em> I do have personal responsibility here. I was ignorant, and I was arrogant. I really did not listen to Pamela. I did not support her <em>at all<\/em> in the help that she needed, so <em>eight years<\/em> went by like this.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> Now, God has a way of bringing some things to\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014to the surface?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> \u2014to the surface, and He did. Amazingly, I ended up going into counseling after those eight years as well; so joke\u2019s on me. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> No; when we had been married for 18 years, I was 39 years old. A person, who had hurt me, asked for forgiveness; and the pain of the sexual abuse was like a tsunami. Immediately, I stopped eating; I cried constantly; and my behavior became extremely erratic. We would argue\u2014I did not know that the anger towards my abuser was being aimed at Bill. When I would perceive that he had done something, where I didn\u2019t trust him, I just was like a lunatic.<\/p>\n<p>Where our home had been one of peace and calm, for that six weeks, it became like hell on earth. I do remember there were a couple of instances\u2014like for one\u2014Bill brought me flowers. I took the flowers\u2014and in my mind, the story was: \u201cIf you think those flowers are going to help me, you are <em>wrong<\/em>.\u201d I just threw them across the room.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Another time\u2014I was too upset to be able to keep talking, so I grabbed the keys from the\u2014we were on the second floor of our upstairs\/downstairs apartment\u2014and went tearing down the stairs to drive away, in a rage, screaming back to Bill, \u201cYou explain this to the girls!\u201d They were in eighth and ninth grade.<\/p>\n<p>Our marriage, for the next\u2014I\u2019d say four or five years\u2014<em>was miserable<\/em>: full of shame and chaos. I ended up, at the end of the six weeks, in a mental hospital. We found a doctor, who was a Christian, who had a lot of experience with trauma and sexual abuse. He admitted me; I found that that was a very safe place to be for those four weeks.<\/p>\n<p>The first night that I was in the hospital on the psychiatric floor, I had begged my doctor to give me a private room and to put it far away\u2014that little piece of me that likes aloneness\u2014he did it. I\u2019m at the corner of the unit, and the door\u2019s shut. I had a conversation with God; and it went like this, <em>loud<\/em>\u2014first of all, I was <em>loud<\/em>\u2014I said, \u201cGod, if You are ever able to take away this pain, I will <em>never<\/em> <em>ever<\/em> let You use me again to help another person.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Now, wait; wait: \u201cIf You\u2019re able to take it away, I\u2019ll <em>never<\/em> let You\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> \u201c\u2026<em>never<\/em> let You use me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> That\u2019s like: \u201cMake me better, and I\u2019ll quit serving You\u201d?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> It wasn\u2019t that I would quit serving Him; but first of all, I didn\u2019t think He could take that deep pain away. If He could, there was no way I was going to let Him use <em>me<\/em> to help anybody else.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014because?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> The pain was <em>so great<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> In my mind, at that moment as I was speaking out loud\u2014because I do pray out loud, even if it\u2019s quiet mumbling, to stay focused when I pray. That was sort of one of the effects of the abuse that I never knew; and that is I can\u2019t\u2014there is a lot of activity in my brain.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> So if I want to pray, I have to speak. I finished by saying, \u201cGod, how could You love a little girl, and watch that happen, and not do anything?\u201d Now, all the time that I\u2019m saying <em>those<\/em> words, I am also saying, \u201cI know You\u2019re there.\u201d I was on the third floor, and I faced Lake Michigan; so I could see the sunrise every morning.<\/p>\n<p>For those four weeks, I would get up before dawn, which is\u2014Bill would know\u2014I mean, you don\u2019t see me before 11 am if I can choose. [Laughter] I would get up before dawn, throw up the windows, and sit on my bed and watch the sun rise over Lake Michigan, thinking, \u201cIf God can keep the universe running, I know He sees what\u2019s going on in our lives.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Then Bill can tell\u2014we immediately started reading Psalms together in that dark time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Before you talk about the Psalms, though, you connected this erratic behavior\u2014this six weeks of what we would look at and say, \u201cShe had a nervous breakdown\u201d\u2014right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> That\u2019s what I had.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> You were connecting that to your abuse?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> The idea that the pastor\u2019s wife is going to the psych ward?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s where God started breaking me. There was stuff in my life that needed to be dealt with, and pride was among them. With the congregation, I shared with them\u2014and this was with the doctor\u2019s advice\u2014he didn\u2019t want everything revealed at once. He said, \u201cJust let your people know that she\u2019s reached complete exhaustion, physically, and just needs this time for emotional rest.\u201d That became the explanation. By the time a year had passed, we had shared everything with the congregation.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> At the time she was in the hospital, I gave that limited explanation, which I\u2019m sure raised a lot of questions in people; but for some reason, God was enabling me to be okay with that at the time because I knew that this\u2014well, I did not know\u2014but it was turning out to be the turning point in our lives\/the defining moment. As much as Pamela needed help, I needed help. The difference was she knew she needed help; I didn\u2019t realize where I was.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> How did that journey take place\u2014I mean, you\u2019re getting help.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> \u2014which is typical, you know. If you\u2019ve been abused, and you go to a counselor, they have been trained to a good degree to know what to do with you; but there was no one for my daughters or for Bill.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> I was assigned to a different counselor in the same clinic. It bothered me a little bit; I thought, \u201cShouldn\u2019t we be going to the same counselor?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> I understand it, now, why. I was just talking to another husband the other day, whose wife is a survivor. He said, \u201cI want to get us into marriage counseling together.\u201d I said: \u201cLook, you\u2019re already in individual counseling; so is she. Keep it that way for now; because I know that there are things, within the husband, that need to be addressed.\u201d There were certainly things in me.<\/p>\n<p>One of the things that occurs in the family system, where abuse has occurred, is that the survivor becomes labeled as the identified patient. She\u2019s the one\u2014or if the husband\u2019s the one who has been abused, he\u2019s the one\u2014that has the problems. The family system kind of buys into that, but that\u2019s a fallacy. I had deep issues that needed to be dealt with; and as I sat down for counseling, eventually, those things came to the forefront and were dealt with.<\/p>\n<p>We needed healing in our marriage; yes; but we were two wounded people, who needed God\u2019s individual work in us first, and then the marriage could come together again.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Bill, what were your issues that needed to come up and be healed?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014besides ignorance and arrogance, which you already said. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Pride. You\u2019ve got a whole list\u00a0 of them there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> Pride goes pretty deep\u2014the controlling. You know, there were temptations that I was not dealing with well. I wasn\u2019t proving myself to be trustworthy to Pamela. There were ways in which I was drawn, lustfully, outside of marriage in thought life, and even desiring\/wishing, and all of these things that were so privately held within me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> This is so common with those of us that have been sexually abused. We\u2019re hypersensitive and aware of those little nuances, and we have had to live our entire life watching for signs of safety or threat. I would recognize the lack of safety; and when we would try to discuss it ourselves, well, that just turned into a big atomic bomb. The counselor was able to sort that out in a much healthier way than I would have ever been able to do for Bill.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> How were you different at the end of four weeks in the psych ward than you had been when you went in?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Well, first of all, I had been put on some medication that sort of brought the anxiety to a duller roar.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> My doctor was reminding me that I was going to get through it, and\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and that was helpful?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> It was\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> \u2014because all I could think of, from the time I was very little, I always had this belief system\u2014and I don\u2019t know where it came from other than abuse\u2014\u201cIf I died, nobody would cry.\u201d Then I would cry, just silently; but I could remember the tears being warm on my cheek, and my pillow being soaking wet, thinking, \u201cNobody will cry if I die.\u201d Then, as I got older and I had shared about the abuse, and the pain started to hit for real; then I wanted to die.<\/p>\n<p>At the end of that four weeks, I thought\u2014the doctors said, \u201cYou\u2019ll need long-term therapy,\u201d\u2014in my mind, that meant nine months; because I thought, \u201cIt\u2019s a long time when you are pregnant\u2014nine months.\u201d [Laughter] That\u2019s truly what I thought. I thought, \u201cAt the end of nine months, we\u2019ll be through this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Well, at the end of nine months, I was seeing my doctor, maybe two or three times a week, crying for an hour and going home, screaming the whole drive home; because I didn\u2019t know why. I just was screaming, because I was still hurting. That went on for several years. After a year\u2019s time, I felt very suicidal at the anniversary of that hospitalization; I was put back in the hospital. That happened another time the next year; and that, also, was the time of year when the abuse had happened.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Pamela, can you share: \u201cWhat was going on in your mind? Were you <em>reliving<\/em> what had happened to you? What kind of battle were you facing?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> I think the biggest battle was I was fighting for my life to stay alive to find out what God was going to do. It wasn\u2019t even that I would replay the actual abuse as much as my nightmares were dragging me into hell. Then, to wake up and have to fight Satan with my mind and Scripture, I was exhausted. I\u2019m telling you\u2014I just had card after card\u2014like what I brought today.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes, what were some of your Scriptures that just got you through?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pamela:<\/strong> I would read things like this\u2014Isaiah 46:3: \u201cI have created you and cared for you since you were born. I will be your God through all your lifetime. Yes, even when your hair is white with age.\u201d It didn\u2019t say anything about dying it and bleaching it; right? [Laughter] I have white hair, just so you know. \u201cI made you, and I will care for you. I will carry you along and be your Savior.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I would speak truth, and it was years of doing that. Then, eventually, I would be able to say\u2014when I would have a thought: \u201cYou\u2019d be better off dead,\u201d \u201cYour girls would do better,\u201d\u2014I would be able say out loud: \u201cThat is a lie! God has me; I am His. It is a lie.\u201d I pretty much do that every morning before I get into my day. I don\u2019t memorize the things that I speak, because I don\u2019t want them to ever be just done by rote. I actually just sit with my cards and read them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> I want you to help me, as a husband, because, like you, I would think nine months should fix this. For you to say \u201cyears and years,\u201d and you have to go back a couple of times to the hospital\u2014as you\u2019re telling this story, I\u2019m <em>not<\/em> thinking, \u201cBoy, there is something really wrong with Pamela,\u201d\u2014I\u2019m thinking, \u201cThere is something really wrong with <em>me<\/em> in thinking this should be over in a few months.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> Oh, can I answer that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> It wasn\u2019t until the 1970s that clinical psychologists were beginning to recognize the long-term effects of sexual abuse. Then, in the \u201890s, they began to recognize that, as they were hearing the stories of war veterans coming back from war and the stories of sexual abuse survivors, that the long-term effects they were hearing were very similar; but there is an extra complexity thrown in for survivors of sexual abuse. It\u2019s called complex trauma. For a war veteran, you <em>expect<\/em> the enemy to be shooting at you; you don\u2019t want it, but you <em>expect<\/em> it. For a survivor, it\u2019s the person, who is supposed to be their caregiver\u2014not an enemy\u2014that is the one who is abusing them. It becomes a very complex situation.<\/p>\n<p>Here is my answer to your question: \u201cWe would <em>never<\/em> say to a war veteran, \u2018Why can\u2019t you just get over it?\u2019\u201d It would be unthinkable to us; and we need to take on that same attitude for survivors, whether they be male or female survivors of sexual abuse. If anybody wants to get over it, <em>they do<\/em>; but it is a process that, for some reason, God has chosen to use to work some deeper good into our lives.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019m thinking there may be as many women who are interested in reading your book as there are husbands. You wrote this for husbands: <em>Help, My Wife Is a Survivor of Sexual Abuse<\/em>. I\u2019m guessing a lot of wives are going to say, \u201cI want to see what you are telling the husbands in this book.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> That book addresses ten questions husbands have that, out of my research, I began hearing these questions over and over again.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> I had every single one of those ten.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> Wow; Pamela would be quick to say: \u201cYou know what? Those are my questions too.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cWhat\u2019s a normal marriage?\u201d \u201cWhen do I get my wife back?\u201d \u201cShould I stay, or should I go?\u201d \u201cWhy doesn\u2019t God heal my wife?\u201d \u201cWhen will this be over?\u201d \u201cWhy can\u2019t she just get over it?\u201d Those are the questions you are addressing in the book. I\u2019d encourage any husband, whose wife experienced sexual abuse\u2014and again, the statistics that we\u2019ve seen are one in three wives has experienced some kind of direct sexual abuse as a child\u2014get a copy of this book. Read through it yourself\/read through it with your wife; enter into what has to have been a significant trauma for her, and be the husband God has called you to be here.<\/p>\n<p>The book we\u2019re talking about is called <em>Help, My Wife Is a Survivor of Sexual Abuse<\/em> by Bill Ronzheimer. You can go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to get your copy; or call to order: 1-800-FL-TODAY is our number. Again, the title of the book is <em>Help, My Wife Is a Survivor of Sexual Abuse<\/em> by Bill Ronzheimer. Order online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call to order: 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>You know, as we have had this conversation today about how important it is for us to invite others into the challenges we\u2019re facing\u2014to have a safe community of people, who can support us as we go through difficult times\/as we process what\u2019s going on in our lives\u2014I was thinking about many of you, as listeners, who have gotten in touch with us and asked us to pray for you. And we do that regularly. We got an email from a listener recently who said, \u201cPray for my marriage, for my children, our finances, for my physical and mental health.\u201d Somebody else said, \u201cPray for my anxiety during this difficult season.\u201d Somebody else said, \u201cPray for the restoration of my marriage and my family.\u201d Somebody else said, \u201cWe\u2019re trying to have children; the doctors say we can\u2019t. We\u2019re trusting God and seeking His direction.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So many burdens that people are experiencing, and so many of us need a community we can connect with. And to the extent we can be a part of that community with you, we want to do that. <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> exists to help effectively develop godly marriages and families. We do that by providing you programs like <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. We do that through the resources we develop, our website, our events; but we also do that by connecting with you as listeners. So as you have prayer requests, we are here for you\/want to pray for you.<\/p>\n<p>We want to say a special word of thanks today to those of you who support the work of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> on an ongoing basis. Our Legacy Partners, who every month, help us cover the cost of producing and syndicating this radio program and doing all that we\u2019re doing here at <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>\u2014we are grateful for you.<\/p>\n<p>If you are a longtime listener\/you\u2019ve never made a donation\u2014or if you\u2019d like to become a monthly Legacy Partner\/join the team that makes <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> possible for so many people every day\u2014you can do that, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY and just say, \u201cI\u2019d like to be a Legacy Partner, part of the FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> team.\u201d We look forward to hearing from you.<\/p>\n<p>Now, tomorrow, we want to talk about the hope and the healing that is available for people, who have been down this dark road\/who have experienced this kind of evil. Bill and Pamela Ronzheimer will be back with us again tomorrow. I hope you can be back as well.<\/p>\n<p>I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. 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