{"id":306079,"date":"2020-06-08T07:00:04","date_gmt":"2020-06-08T11:00:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/the-shrapnel-of-sexual-abuse\/"},"modified":"2020-06-08T07:00:04","modified_gmt":"2020-06-08T11:00:04","slug":"the-shrapnel-of-sexual-abuse","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-shrapnel-of-sexual-abuse\/","title":{"rendered":"The Shrapnel of Sexual Abuse"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Bill and Pamela Ronzheimer tell how their marriage has been affected by Pamela&#8217;s past sexual abuse. Find out what pushed Pamela to finally reveal her past abuse to Bill.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-06-08.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:24","filesize":"25.08M","filesize_raw":"26301783","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2860,2873],"tags":[4374],"podcast_series":[8366],"cwp_profile":[9629],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-306079","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-hardship-and-suffering","category-mental-and-emotional-issues","tag-sexual-abuse","podcast_series-help-my-wife-is-a-survivor-of-sexual-abuse","cwp_profile-bill-and-pamela-ronzheimer","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/306079\/the-shrapnel-of-sexual-abuse","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/306079\/the-shrapnel-of-sexual-abuse","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"OBmENZdque\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-shrapnel-of-sexual-abuse\/\">The Shrapnel of Sexual Abuse<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-shrapnel-of-sexual-abuse\/embed\/#?secret=OBmENZdque\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;The Shrapnel of Sexual Abuse&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"OBmENZdque\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-06-08.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-06-08.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>As a child, Pamela Ronzheimer experienced a series of traumatic events\/events that scarred her soul and affected her life for years.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> From the time I was nine, all the way through to that ten-year point of our marriage, I had terrible nightmares\/nightmares, where Satan would stand in front of me and say, \u201cYou will <em>never<\/em> be free from me.\u201d I knew verses; I would quote Scripture in my sleep to fight that lie, but I did not connect it to the sexual abuse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, June 8<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You\u2019ll find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. The trauma of childhood sexual abuse is a big deal. It has a <em>significant<\/em> impact on someone\u2019s life. We\u2019ll hear more about that today from Bill and Pamela Ronzheimer. Stay with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. We\u2019re going to tackle a tough subject this week. It\u2019s a subject\u2014I remember Dennis Rainey would often say to me that the subject we\u2019re going to be talking about is one of the hardest stones that the devil can throw at someone. The issue of sexual abuse leaves scars, in such a profound and remarkable\/dramatic way in a person\u2019s life, that it leaves shrapnel; and it leaves [need for] healing that can go on for years. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know a little about this; it\u2019s part of your story.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I do; it is part of my story. I thought that God would heal me instantly, but it became a journey of years and years.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019ve got some friends, who are joining us today; this is a part of their story as well. Bill and Pamela Ronzheimer join us. Welcome to the program, guys.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Thank you. Delighted to be here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Thank you!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Bill and Pamela live in Minnesota. They give leadership to Marriage Reconstruction Ministries, helping couples, where sexual abuse is part of the story, and a lot more. It\u2019s not just sexual abuse, although that\u2019s where a lot of your emphasis has been; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Correct; yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Bill is an adjunct professor at Northwestern University\/39 years a pastor. Pamela, your story includes a personal history of sexual abuse. You were abused when you were growing up.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Yes; first of all, let me say that when I was eight years old, I accepted Christ as my Savior. That\u2019s very important for how my story ends. I had grandparents, who knew the Lord, and particularly a great-grandfather, who lived across the street from me when I was a four-year-old. Every day he would come over to our yard, and he would talk to me about Jesus all the time. By the time I was almost eight, he was dying from cancer and had gone into a coma. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTwo weeks before my birthday, whatever they talked about in children\u2019s church that Wednesday night, on the way home, my mom asked, \u201cWhat all did you learn?\u201d My response was, \u201cI found out that I\u2019ve never asked Jesus into my life.\u201d She said, \u201cWell, you can pray right now.\u201d I did in the back of the car; and <em>immediately<\/em>, everything changed.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Really?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You were eight years old.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Eight.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And yet you remember this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Absolutely. I was so aware of my sin as an eight-year-old: I knew that I told lies to keep from getting a spanking; I knew that I was very jealous of one of my siblings. So, with that prayer, that transformation was instantaneous. I felt that my life had started all over. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was so excited to tell my great-grandpa Linscheid. I told my mom, \u201cI really need to talk to Great-grandpa.\u201d She took me after church on Sunday the following Sunday. We walked into the room. It was dark; he was quiet, sleeping. She tapped him on the arm and said, \u201cGrandpa, Pamela wants to tell you something.\u201d Opening my mouth, immediately, there were the emotions of joy and tears; and I said, \u201cGrandpa, I asked Jesus into my heart.\u201d He said just as clear as could be, \u201cPraise the Lord! Praise the Lord!\u201d with all [awareness]\/firmness. Shortly after that, he went to be in heaven.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m telling you\u2014knowing that his prayers have followed me all of my life\u2014take a story of trauma and tragedy and completely transform everything. So, at eight, I had that great joy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA year later, my parents moved us from public school to private school. I had a little brother, who had heart problems and was very ill; that seemed to be the path God had for us. As soon as I began fourth grade, as a nine-year-old, I was sexually abused by the principal of the school. He went to my church; he was really good friends with my parents. He knew how traumatized our family was. Of five kids, three of us would stay with Grandma for six weeks, then someone in the church. The other ones would go to Grandma\u2019s, then someone in the church. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo nobody would suspect, if I started behaving poorly, that something other than the upset in the family was causing the problem. He knew my family. He knew that, in my family, disobedience was punished, probably with a good little spanking; and that I would be fearful that I wasn\u2019t living at home, so there was no one to tell right away. Within hours, it seems, from that happening, he started asking me to go to different parts of the building, or outside the building, where children were not allowed to be. It started out with him wanting me to take a friend and lift our dresses. From there, it went to the unthinkable. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe saddest part, for when I look at that little girl that had joy and a smile that went from one side of the world to the other, it <em>immediately<\/em> was gone. In its place was horror. I think the biggest thing he took away from me, besides the innocence, he took away my ability to believe that I could be loved. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn that instant of abuse, I could <em>not<\/em> believe that God could love me; and if God didn\u2019t love me, then how could my mother and father love me? How, eventually, could my husband love me? How could my children, who I <em>adored<\/em>, how could they really love me? So when someone said, in any point of life from\u2014I would say nine until eighteen\u2014that I did something well\/that they cared about me, in the back of my mind, I thought, \u201cThey must want something.\u201d Satan grabbed ahold of my ability to be loved and kept it hidden for a good long time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That started at nine?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Nine.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And did it continue until 18?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> \u2014on and off. I functioned fairly well; but if you would talk to my classmates, like in high school, they would probably all be able to say, \u201cSomething was a little off; we just don\u2019t know what it was.\u201d I was involved in dramatics; I was involved in music, but I couldn\u2019t study. I had a lot of difficulty, right away as a nine-year-old, losing time and not having my work done. I had a lot of the symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder, so I have an <em>extreme<\/em> startle reflex. Most often, I scare other people more than I scare myself by that startle reflex if I don\u2019t know you\u2019re behind me or talking to me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And you didn\u2019t tell anyone?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> I <em>did<\/em>; immediately, I told my mom, the next time she was home. But she had a critically-ill little baby. I was the oldest, and she felt like maybe I was looking for attention. Back in the \u201860s, nobody even called it sexual abuse. I would tell classmates, \u201cPlease stay with me at recess so that he can\u2019t get me to go away.\u201d<br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This was <em>years<\/em> of ongoing abuse\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and people not hearing or not believing what you were telling them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Yes; right. When I started seventh grade, my family\/all of us children went back to public school; and that kind of gave me some breathing room. I didn\u2019t know what an eating disorder was, but I was bulimic. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI got involved with Youth for Christ. I did some singing\/I did a lot of singing in my church. My mom was very, very musical. Though I didn\u2019t play piano, I would hear how music should be arranged; so I\u2019d say, \u201cThis is what I want you to do for our trio.\u201d She would write it; and then we\u2019d sing for Youth for Christ, and she\u2019d play for us. Lots of things, where I was finding great joy in serving the Lord\u2014but this underneath junk\u2014I didn\u2019t know what to do with it. I just sort of ignored it, thinking it wasn\u2019t impacting my life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I was 18, it was the very first time I heard that the Holy Spirit is the part of the Trinity that gives us the power to live the Christian life\/to have peace. My smile returned. I went to college. I did not think the abuse had any impact in my life anymore. My smile was completely there; I felt fully alive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You thought you\u2019d been able to compartmentalize it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Yes, not knowing that that\u2019s what it would be called, exactly. I thought: \u201cOh, that was bad. Maybe it didn\u2019t even happen as bad as I thought,\u201d and \u201cIt\u2019s done.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019ve talked to women, who have experienced this, and have heard two different reactions to their abuse over time. One has been that some women become promiscuous in an attempt to try to normalize the behavior that they experienced: \u201cMaybe if I do this, I won\u2019t feel the pain anymore.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOther women become so afraid of anything to do with sexuality\u2014now, that follows them into marriage, and that becomes a challenge\u2014but anytime a boy leans over to kiss them, they pull back. Was one of those two responses your response?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Not at first. I did a lot of dating. I didn\u2019t want to ever be married; I had <em>never<\/em> seen a marriage that I thought would be loving enough that I\u2019d want to be in it. I didn\u2019t realize the impact that my abuse was having in that perception. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI had a two-date rule: I would date a guy twice, whether I hated him or loved him. It was like: \u201cI wouldn\u2019t date him again,\u201d\u2014that protected me from falling in love until I met Bill.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> How did you get to three dates, Bill? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes, yes. I\u2019m trying to remember right now. In fact, I actually haven\u2019t thought of this: \u201cWhat was that third date? It must have been the winner.\u201d [Laughter] Truthfully, I had to just <em>talk<\/em> her into the idea: \u201cLet\u2019s keep dating; let\u2019s consider marriage.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> We were best friends for <em>months<\/em> and had talked endless hours before we ever would\u2019ve been considered dating. By that time, he knew he loved me. I was like, \u201cYou tell me you love me, and I am so out of here\u201d; and that\u2019s what happened. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Wow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> What did \u201cout of here\u201d look like? Did you stop dating?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Well, I disappeared for a week! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014a week?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes, yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Then I found out I was missing his wit, his intelligence, his sparkle, how he brought such a perfect wholeness to my life by being different than I am.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You went a long time, with the thought in the back of your mind: \u201cThis is who I want to get to know, who I want to date, who I want to be with.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Oh, exactly. I had fallen into not being myself for awhile\u2014that\u2019s a long story\u2014had lost the fun of life. When Pamela came along, I knew right away: \u201cThis is somebody I believe God has for marriage for me.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You knew that pretty quickly.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes; we are really different in so many ways but \u201cThis is what I\u2019m looking for.\u201d I\u2019ll never forget\u2014when we drive on I-94 between Milwaukee and Minneapolis, there\u2019s a spot where she first told me she loved me. Often, if we\u2019re on a trip and take that route\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014you pull over! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> \u201cHallelujah!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> It was a waiting time. I had <em>no idea<\/em>\/<em>none at all<\/em> what was behind her hesitancy regarding marrying. She had talked about the bad example she had seen; but as far as there being something that was deeper rooted, I had no idea. And I had no idea when we were first married.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I think, for a lot of us guys, who would\u2019ve thought that sexual abuse was as prevalent as it was? If that was happening, that was happening to such a minority that we wouldn\u2019t imagine that a girl we knew had ever experienced anything like this. The reality is\u2014it\u2019s probably a third\u2014you may know the statistics better than I do\u2014but I\u2019ve heard as many as a third\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill: <\/strong>That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014of women today have experienced some kind of predatory sexual abuse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Right, and that\u2019s just the ones who are reporting.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right, so it\u2019s more common. But when you meet somebody in college, you don\u2019t think, \u201cI wonder if she\u2019s been sexually abused, growing up,\u201d even though that may have been a part of her past.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Especially in the years that we were going to college, it was\/not much was known, back then, about the prevalence of sexual abuse. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Never in your mind, did it ever cross your mind.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Never.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> No symptoms, no signal at all.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> I had never <em>known<\/em> anybody, who was sexually abused; so I had no frame of reference regarding the whole thing. Pamela was just plain fun; that\u2019s what I was looking for. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> I had <em>never<\/em> heard the phrase, \u201csexually abused.\u201d I didn\u2019t even have a vocabulary to talk about it other than if I would\u2019ve described it. I honestly had no sense that any of the dysphoric feelings that I was having would be connected. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe had been married ten years. I had everything I every dreamed for. I was thrilled with my marriage; we had two beautiful little girls. Bill had been in ministry for ten years.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and everything was moving along well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Everything was normal. And to your question\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You call it \u201cnormal\u201d in the book. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Well, yes. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We should mention this\u2014Bill, you\u2019ve written a book called <em>Help, My Wife Is a Survivor of Sexual Abuse<\/em>\u2014and you say, \u201cWe had a normal marriage for ten years.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> That\u2019s\u2014well\u2014<br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> \u2014it looked better than most of the people we were with.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, I bet.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But in the midst of that normalcy, prior to marriage or during ten years of marriage, did the thought ever occur to you: \u201cI should tell Bill what happened to me\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> <em>Never.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And were you happy, Pamela?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> I <em>was<\/em>, and that was the puzzler. I was <em>happy<\/em>, but there was this underlying anxiety that didn\u2019t have any explanation. I loved being a pastor\u2019s wife; I was so proud of Bill. I loved him; I was happy I was married; I loved my little girls; I was involved in the community. Yet, underneath, there was this kind of anxiety that would sometimes get so bad that I would think, \u201cIf I would not be here, everyone would be better.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFrom the time I was nine, all the way through to that ten-year point of our marriage, I had terrible nightmares\/nightmares, where Satan would stand in front of me and say, \u201cYou will <em>never<\/em> be free from me.\u201d I knew verses; I would quote Scripture in my sleep to fight that\/attack that lie, but I did not connect it to the sexual abuse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, when we\u2019d been married ten years, I was really starting to feel depressed. Bill said, \u201cIf you stopped reading all those books on how to be happy, you\u2019d probably <em>be <\/em>happy.\u201d [Laughter] He didn\u2019t know what to do with me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Did you ever tell him about the dreams?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So he knew about that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Because he had to deal with that on our honeymoon; those came right out.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014those on your honeymoon.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Even though you had a normal marriage, you were aware, \u201cThere\u2019s something in my wife\u2019s soul that is restless.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> I\u2019m not sure if I was that thoughtful of a guy back then, to tell you the truth, Bob. We can say that , in retrospect, looking back on those early years, we\u2019re able to connect the dots and understand how some things that we did perceive or didn\u2019t perceive were tied to the abuse. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You were thinking about other things; you were involved in ministry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes, yes; too much so. I was a controlling husband during these years. Things were going the way I wanted them to go: \u201cSo we\u2019re fine!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> And I was the perfect match. My perception of my parents\u2019 marriage was different than my siblings. My perception was that my mom was the boss; I felt bad for my dad. In my mind, I thought, \u201cOkay, I will never be bossy to my husband.\u201d That\u2019s just the perfect storm, because I didn\u2019t tell him how I <em>really<\/em> felt about <em>anything<\/em>. Even though I have a really strong sense of who I am, and I\u2019m a good thinker, I shrunk that\/made it small on purpose; because I wanted him to be the one that shined. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And that felt good to him; that felt good to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> \u2014until it didn\u2019t. [Laughter] When we\u2019d been married ten years, and I was hitting that point of feeling depressed, I told Bill\u2014we were going to a pastors\u2019 wives\u2019 retreat\u2014I said, \u201cIf we don\u2019t get help with this, I don\u2019t know what will happen.\u201d So, after a prayer meeting,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So hang on; hang on. It\u2019s been normal, and everybody\u2019s fine; and it was this\u2014kind of like, \u201cWhere did that come from?\u201d\u2014when she says, \u201cIf we don\u2019t get help, I don\u2019t know what\u2019s going to happen\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Did you know what \u201chelp about\u201d was?\u2014or it just\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> No; and you didn\u2019t either, Pamela.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t either. I did <em>not<\/em> know it was about the abuse. I thought, \u201cI need help to not be so anxious.\u201d At that point, after a prayer meeting, a man came up to us and said: \u201cGod has told me that I should pray with you. Is there something I could pray for you?\u201d Bill was quiet, and I looked up at him; and these words came out of my mouth\u2014and I was as shocked as the world\u2014\u201cI was sexually abused when I was ten.\u201d I\u2019m going: \u201cHoly cow! Where did that come from?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You did not pre-think, \u201cI\u2019m going to say this.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Had no clue. God just brought it out of my mouth.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What were <em>you<\/em> thinking?!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019ll tell you who I was. It\u2019s easier to tell you that than to remember what I was thinking at the time. I didn\u2019t know what to think. I was totally ignorant as to the ramifications of being sexually abused. She said it, and I thought, \u201cThat must be a problem.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> The other problem was\u2014I was arrogant. As a controlling husband, I wanted it my way; and it was all pride. Ignorance and arrogance\u2014you combine that together\u2014I totally lacked empathy of what it was like to be in Pamela\u2019s shoes, which is something I\u2019ll want to talk about later\u2014and what empathy means in a marriage, especially in a marriage where there\u2019s been abuse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You\u2019ve laid a foundation for us here. There\u2019s obviously a lot we want to dive into and dig into. I\u2019m wondering how many women are listening, who have never told\/maybe never understood for themselves, that what they experienced was a bigger deal than they even thought it was.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr how many men, who are listening\u2014who maybe their wife said, \u201cI experienced sexual abuse,\u201d\u2014and like Bill, they were like, \u201cOh, huh?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That was me!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014when Ann shared it with you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I had shared it with Dave before we were married, but\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I was like Bill; I was like, \u201cOh, huh.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> \u201cData point.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cThat was <em>years<\/em> ago, and it doesn\u2019t sound like that big a deal.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And I didn\u2019t think it was a big deal either, because it was\/I had suppressed it; I thought I had dealt with it; I felt happy. It wasn\u2019t until we were in seminary, where we were taking classes on how to counsel people, and we started getting into our own past, that it came up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> For me, it wasn\u2019t until we were talking\u2014this was years ago, with Dr. Dan Allender, who wrote the book, <em>The Wounded Heart<\/em>, about sexual abuse\u2014that I started to realize the level of trauma, and damage, and injury that happens when somebody experiences sexual abuse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019ve done us a great service by opening up your story to us. Bill, you, in coaching husbands to understand this is huge! We need empathy, and we need understanding. If we\u2019re going to apply 1 Peter 3\u2014\u201cto live with our wives in an understanding way\u201d\u2014we need to understand this better. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYour book is a great tool for husbands, whose wives have experienced sexual abuse. We\u2019ve got copies of the book, <em>Help, My Wife Is a Survivor of Sexual Abuse: Answers to Your Most Important Questions<\/em> by Bill Ronzheimer. Go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to order your copy; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com. The number to call to get a copy of the book, <em>Help, My Wife Is a Survivor of Sexual Abuse<\/em>\u2014the number is: 1-800-FL-TODAY\u20141-800-358-6329\u20141-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI know the subject we\u2019ve talked about today has hit uncomfortably close to home for some of you, who have been listening. At FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, one of our goals is to have honest conversations about the real issues that we face in our marriage and in our family relationships. FamilyLife is here to provide practical biblical help and hope for the issues all of us face as we navigate life in a broken, fallen world. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor those of you who have benefitted from our conversation today, the people you have to thank for that are your fellow listeners, those of you who contribute so that <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> can continue to be heard on this station and on various platforms all around the world. Your fellow listeners are the ones who have made today\u2019s program possible and who enable us to reach more people, more often, as we seek to effectively develop godly marriages and families. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you\u2019re a longtime listener, we\u2019d love to invite you to join the team that makes <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> possible for your fellow listeners. You can donate online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or r you can call to make a donation: 1-800-FL-TODAY. On behalf of those who will benefit in the future from the donation you make today, \u201cThank you for being part of the <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> team.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTomorrow, we\u2019re going to find out more about the process that Bill and Pamela Ronzheimer went through that led to healing and liberation in their marriage; and ultimately, how the two of them decided to share with the church what was going on in their marriage. We\u2019ll talk about that tomorrow. I hope you can be with us for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:27:24"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["25.08M"],"filesize_raw":["26301783"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-306079.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-306079.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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and Pamela Ronzheimer tell how their marriage has been affected by Pamela's past sexual abuse. Find out what pushed Pamela to finally reveal her past abuse to Bill.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-06-08.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>As a child, Pamela Ronzheimer experienced a series of traumatic events\/events that scarred her soul and affected her life for years.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> From the time I was nine, all the way through to that ten-year point of our marriage, I had terrible nightmares\/nightmares, where Satan would stand in front of me and say, \u201cYou will <em>never<\/em> be free from me.\u201d I knew verses; I would quote Scripture in my sleep to fight that lie, but I did not connect it to the sexual abuse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, June 8<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You\u2019ll find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. The trauma of childhood sexual abuse is a big deal. It has a <em>significant<\/em> impact on someone\u2019s life. We\u2019ll hear more about that today from Bill and Pamela Ronzheimer. Stay with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. We\u2019re going to tackle a tough subject this week. It\u2019s a subject\u2014I remember Dennis Rainey would often say to me that the subject we\u2019re going to be talking about is one of the hardest stones that the devil can throw at someone. The issue of sexual abuse leaves scars, in such a profound and remarkable\/dramatic way in a person\u2019s life, that it leaves shrapnel; and it leaves [need for] healing that can go on for years. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know a little about this; it\u2019s part of your story.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I do; it is part of my story. I thought that God would heal me instantly, but it became a journey of years and years.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019ve got some friends, who are joining us today; this is a part of their story as well. Bill and Pamela Ronzheimer join us. Welcome to the program, guys.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Thank you. Delighted to be here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Thank you!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Bill and Pamela live in Minnesota. They give leadership to Marriage Reconstruction Ministries, helping couples, where sexual abuse is part of the story, and a lot more. It\u2019s not just sexual abuse, although that\u2019s where a lot of your emphasis has been; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Correct; yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Bill is an adjunct professor at Northwestern University\/39 years a pastor. Pamela, your story includes a personal history of sexual abuse. You were abused when you were growing up.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Yes; first of all, let me say that when I was eight years old, I accepted Christ as my Savior. That\u2019s very important for how my story ends. I had grandparents, who knew the Lord, and particularly a great-grandfather, who lived across the street from me when I was a four-year-old. Every day he would come over to our yard, and he would talk to me about Jesus all the time. By the time I was almost eight, he was dying from cancer and had gone into a coma. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTwo weeks before my birthday, whatever they talked about in children\u2019s church that Wednesday night, on the way home, my mom asked, \u201cWhat all did you learn?\u201d My response was, \u201cI found out that I\u2019ve never asked Jesus into my life.\u201d She said, \u201cWell, you can pray right now.\u201d I did in the back of the car; and <em>immediately<\/em>, everything changed.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Really?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You were eight years old.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Eight.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And yet you remember this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Absolutely. I was so aware of my sin as an eight-year-old: I knew that I told lies to keep from getting a spanking; I knew that I was very jealous of one of my siblings. So, with that prayer, that transformation was instantaneous. I felt that my life had started all over. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was so excited to tell my great-grandpa Linscheid. I told my mom, \u201cI really need to talk to Great-grandpa.\u201d She took me after church on Sunday the following Sunday. We walked into the room. It was dark; he was quiet, sleeping. She tapped him on the arm and said, \u201cGrandpa, Pamela wants to tell you something.\u201d Opening my mouth, immediately, there were the emotions of joy and tears; and I said, \u201cGrandpa, I asked Jesus into my heart.\u201d He said just as clear as could be, \u201cPraise the Lord! Praise the Lord!\u201d with all [awareness]\/firmness. Shortly after that, he went to be in heaven.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m telling you\u2014knowing that his prayers have followed me all of my life\u2014take a story of trauma and tragedy and completely transform everything. So, at eight, I had that great joy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA year later, my parents moved us from public school to private school. I had a little brother, who had heart problems and was very ill; that seemed to be the path God had for us. As soon as I began fourth grade, as a nine-year-old, I was sexually abused by the principal of the school. He went to my church; he was really good friends with my parents. He knew how traumatized our family was. Of five kids, three of us would stay with Grandma for six weeks, then someone in the church. The other ones would go to Grandma\u2019s, then someone in the church. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo nobody would suspect, if I started behaving poorly, that something other than the upset in the family was causing the problem. He knew my family. He knew that, in my family, disobedience was punished, probably with a good little spanking; and that I would be fearful that I wasn\u2019t living at home, so there was no one to tell right away. Within hours, it seems, from that happening, he started asking me to go to different parts of the building, or outside the building, where children were not allowed to be. It started out with him wanting me to take a friend and lift our dresses. From there, it went to the unthinkable. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe saddest part, for when I look at that little girl that had joy and a smile that went from one side of the world to the other, it <em>immediately<\/em> was gone. In its place was horror. I think the biggest thing he took away from me, besides the innocence, he took away my ability to believe that I could be loved. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn that instant of abuse, I could <em>not<\/em> believe that God could love me; and if God didn\u2019t love me, then how could my mother and father love me? How, eventually, could my husband love me? How could my children, who I <em>adored<\/em>, how could they really love me? So when someone said, in any point of life from\u2014I would say nine until eighteen\u2014that I did something well\/that they cared about me, in the back of my mind, I thought, \u201cThey must want something.\u201d Satan grabbed ahold of my ability to be loved and kept it hidden for a good long time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That started at nine?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Nine.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And did it continue until 18?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> \u2014on and off. I functioned fairly well; but if you would talk to my classmates, like in high school, they would probably all be able to say, \u201cSomething was a little off; we just don\u2019t know what it was.\u201d I was involved in dramatics; I was involved in music, but I couldn\u2019t study. I had a lot of difficulty, right away as a nine-year-old, losing time and not having my work done. I had a lot of the symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder, so I have an <em>extreme<\/em> startle reflex. Most often, I scare other people more than I scare myself by that startle reflex if I don\u2019t know you\u2019re behind me or talking to me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And you didn\u2019t tell anyone?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> I <em>did<\/em>; immediately, I told my mom, the next time she was home. But she had a critically-ill little baby. I was the oldest, and she felt like maybe I was looking for attention. Back in the \u201860s, nobody even called it sexual abuse. I would tell classmates, \u201cPlease stay with me at recess so that he can\u2019t get me to go away.\u201d<br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This was <em>years<\/em> of ongoing abuse\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and people not hearing or not believing what you were telling them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Yes; right. When I started seventh grade, my family\/all of us children went back to public school; and that kind of gave me some breathing room. I didn\u2019t know what an eating disorder was, but I was bulimic. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI got involved with Youth for Christ. I did some singing\/I did a lot of singing in my church. My mom was very, very musical. Though I didn\u2019t play piano, I would hear how music should be arranged; so I\u2019d say, \u201cThis is what I want you to do for our trio.\u201d She would write it; and then we\u2019d sing for Youth for Christ, and she\u2019d play for us. Lots of things, where I was finding great joy in serving the Lord\u2014but this underneath junk\u2014I didn\u2019t know what to do with it. I just sort of ignored it, thinking it wasn\u2019t impacting my life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I was 18, it was the very first time I heard that the Holy Spirit is the part of the Trinity that gives us the power to live the Christian life\/to have peace. My smile returned. I went to college. I did not think the abuse had any impact in my life anymore. My smile was completely there; I felt fully alive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You thought you\u2019d been able to compartmentalize it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Yes, not knowing that that\u2019s what it would be called, exactly. I thought: \u201cOh, that was bad. Maybe it didn\u2019t even happen as bad as I thought,\u201d and \u201cIt\u2019s done.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019ve talked to women, who have experienced this, and have heard two different reactions to their abuse over time. One has been that some women become promiscuous in an attempt to try to normalize the behavior that they experienced: \u201cMaybe if I do this, I won\u2019t feel the pain anymore.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOther women become so afraid of anything to do with sexuality\u2014now, that follows them into marriage, and that becomes a challenge\u2014but anytime a boy leans over to kiss them, they pull back. Was one of those two responses your response?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Not at first. I did a lot of dating. I didn\u2019t want to ever be married; I had <em>never<\/em> seen a marriage that I thought would be loving enough that I\u2019d want to be in it. I didn\u2019t realize the impact that my abuse was having in that perception. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI had a two-date rule: I would date a guy twice, whether I hated him or loved him. It was like: \u201cI wouldn\u2019t date him again,\u201d\u2014that protected me from falling in love until I met Bill.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> How did you get to three dates, Bill? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes, yes. I\u2019m trying to remember right now. In fact, I actually haven\u2019t thought of this: \u201cWhat was that third date? It must have been the winner.\u201d [Laughter] Truthfully, I had to just <em>talk<\/em> her into the idea: \u201cLet\u2019s keep dating; let\u2019s consider marriage.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> We were best friends for <em>months<\/em> and had talked endless hours before we ever would\u2019ve been considered dating. By that time, he knew he loved me. I was like, \u201cYou tell me you love me, and I am so out of here\u201d; and that\u2019s what happened. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Wow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> What did \u201cout of here\u201d look like? Did you stop dating?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Well, I disappeared for a week! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014a week?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes, yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Then I found out I was missing his wit, his intelligence, his sparkle, how he brought such a perfect wholeness to my life by being different than I am.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You went a long time, with the thought in the back of your mind: \u201cThis is who I want to get to know, who I want to date, who I want to be with.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Oh, exactly. I had fallen into not being myself for awhile\u2014that\u2019s a long story\u2014had lost the fun of life. When Pamela came along, I knew right away: \u201cThis is somebody I believe God has for marriage for me.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You knew that pretty quickly.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes; we are really different in so many ways but \u201cThis is what I\u2019m looking for.\u201d I\u2019ll never forget\u2014when we drive on I-94 between Milwaukee and Minneapolis, there\u2019s a spot where she first told me she loved me. Often, if we\u2019re on a trip and take that route\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014you pull over! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> \u201cHallelujah!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> It was a waiting time. I had <em>no idea<\/em>\/<em>none at all<\/em> what was behind her hesitancy regarding marrying. She had talked about the bad example she had seen; but as far as there being something that was deeper rooted, I had no idea. And I had no idea when we were first married.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I think, for a lot of us guys, who would\u2019ve thought that sexual abuse was as prevalent as it was? If that was happening, that was happening to such a minority that we wouldn\u2019t imagine that a girl we knew had ever experienced anything like this. The reality is\u2014it\u2019s probably a third\u2014you may know the statistics better than I do\u2014but I\u2019ve heard as many as a third\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill: <\/strong>That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014of women today have experienced some kind of predatory sexual abuse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Right, and that\u2019s just the ones who are reporting.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right, so it\u2019s more common. But when you meet somebody in college, you don\u2019t think, \u201cI wonder if she\u2019s been sexually abused, growing up,\u201d even though that may have been a part of her past.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Especially in the years that we were going to college, it was\/not much was known, back then, about the prevalence of sexual abuse. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Never in your mind, did it ever cross your mind.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Never.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> No symptoms, no signal at all.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> I had never <em>known<\/em> anybody, who was sexually abused; so I had no frame of reference regarding the whole thing. Pamela was just plain fun; that\u2019s what I was looking for. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> I had <em>never<\/em> heard the phrase, \u201csexually abused.\u201d I didn\u2019t even have a vocabulary to talk about it other than if I would\u2019ve described it. I honestly had no sense that any of the dysphoric feelings that I was having would be connected. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe had been married ten years. I had everything I every dreamed for. I was thrilled with my marriage; we had two beautiful little girls. Bill had been in ministry for ten years.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and everything was moving along well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Everything was normal. And to your question\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You call it \u201cnormal\u201d in the book. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Well, yes. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We should mention this\u2014Bill, you\u2019ve written a book called <em>Help, My Wife Is a Survivor of Sexual Abuse<\/em>\u2014and you say, \u201cWe had a normal marriage for ten years.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> That\u2019s\u2014well\u2014<br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> \u2014it looked better than most of the people we were with.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, I bet.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But in the midst of that normalcy, prior to marriage or during ten years of marriage, did the thought ever occur to you: \u201cI should tell Bill what happened to me\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> <em>Never.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And were you happy, Pamela?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> I <em>was<\/em>, and that was the puzzler. I was <em>happy<\/em>, but there was this underlying anxiety that didn\u2019t have any explanation. I loved being a pastor\u2019s wife; I was so proud of Bill. I loved him; I was happy I was married; I loved my little girls; I was involved in the community. Yet, underneath, there was this kind of anxiety that would sometimes get so bad that I would think, \u201cIf I would not be here, everyone would be better.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFrom the time I was nine, all the way through to that ten-year point of our marriage, I had terrible nightmares\/nightmares, where Satan would stand in front of me and say, \u201cYou will <em>never<\/em> be free from me.\u201d I knew verses; I would quote Scripture in my sleep to fight that\/attack that lie, but I did not connect it to the sexual abuse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, when we\u2019d been married ten years, I was really starting to feel depressed. Bill said, \u201cIf you stopped reading all those books on how to be happy, you\u2019d probably <em>be <\/em>happy.\u201d [Laughter] He didn\u2019t know what to do with me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Did you ever tell him about the dreams?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So he knew about that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Because he had to deal with that on our honeymoon; those came right out.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014those on your honeymoon.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Even though you had a normal marriage, you were aware, \u201cThere\u2019s something in my wife\u2019s soul that is restless.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> I\u2019m not sure if I was that thoughtful of a guy back then, to tell you the truth, Bob. We can say that , in retrospect, looking back on those early years, we\u2019re able to connect the dots and understand how some things that we did perceive or didn\u2019t perceive were tied to the abuse. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You were thinking about other things; you were involved in ministry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes, yes; too much so. I was a controlling husband during these years. Things were going the way I wanted them to go: \u201cSo we\u2019re fine!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> And I was the perfect match. My perception of my parents\u2019 marriage was different than my siblings. My perception was that my mom was the boss; I felt bad for my dad. In my mind, I thought, \u201cOkay, I will never be bossy to my husband.\u201d That\u2019s just the perfect storm, because I didn\u2019t tell him how I <em>really<\/em> felt about <em>anything<\/em>. Even though I have a really strong sense of who I am, and I\u2019m a good thinker, I shrunk that\/made it small on purpose; because I wanted him to be the one that shined. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And that felt good to him; that felt good to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> \u2014until it didn\u2019t. [Laughter] When we\u2019d been married ten years, and I was hitting that point of feeling depressed, I told Bill\u2014we were going to a pastors\u2019 wives\u2019 retreat\u2014I said, \u201cIf we don\u2019t get help with this, I don\u2019t know what will happen.\u201d So, after a prayer meeting,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So hang on; hang on. It\u2019s been normal, and everybody\u2019s fine; and it was this\u2014kind of like, \u201cWhere did that come from?\u201d\u2014when she says, \u201cIf we don\u2019t get help, I don\u2019t know what\u2019s going to happen\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Did you know what \u201chelp about\u201d was?\u2014or it just\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> No; and you didn\u2019t either, Pamela.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t either. I did <em>not<\/em> know it was about the abuse. I thought, \u201cI need help to not be so anxious.\u201d At that point, after a prayer meeting, a man came up to us and said: \u201cGod has told me that I should pray with you. Is there something I could pray for you?\u201d Bill was quiet, and I looked up at him; and these words came out of my mouth\u2014and I was as shocked as the world\u2014\u201cI was sexually abused when I was ten.\u201d I\u2019m going: \u201cHoly cow! Where did that come from?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You did not pre-think, \u201cI\u2019m going to say this.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Pamela:<\/strong> Had no clue. God just brought it out of my mouth.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What were <em>you<\/em> thinking?!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019ll tell you who I was. It\u2019s easier to tell you that than to remember what I was thinking at the time. I didn\u2019t know what to think. I was totally ignorant as to the ramifications of being sexually abused. She said it, and I thought, \u201cThat must be a problem.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> The other problem was\u2014I was arrogant. As a controlling husband, I wanted it my way; and it was all pride. Ignorance and arrogance\u2014you combine that together\u2014I totally lacked empathy of what it was like to be in Pamela\u2019s shoes, which is something I\u2019ll want to talk about later\u2014and what empathy means in a marriage, especially in a marriage where there\u2019s been abuse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You\u2019ve laid a foundation for us here. There\u2019s obviously a lot we want to dive into and dig into. I\u2019m wondering how many women are listening, who have never told\/maybe never understood for themselves, that what they experienced was a bigger deal than they even thought it was.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr how many men, who are listening\u2014who maybe their wife said, \u201cI experienced sexual abuse,\u201d\u2014and like Bill, they were like, \u201cOh, huh?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That was me!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014when Ann shared it with you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I had shared it with Dave before we were married, but\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I was like Bill; I was like, \u201cOh, huh.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> \u201cData point.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cThat was <em>years<\/em> ago, and it doesn\u2019t sound like that big a deal.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And I didn\u2019t think it was a big deal either, because it was\/I had suppressed it; I thought I had dealt with it; I felt happy. It wasn\u2019t until we were in seminary, where we were taking classes on how to counsel people, and we started getting into our own past, that it came up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> For me, it wasn\u2019t until we were talking\u2014this was years ago, with Dr. Dan Allender, who wrote the book, <em>The Wounded Heart<\/em>, about sexual abuse\u2014that I started to realize the level of trauma, and damage, and injury that happens when somebody experiences sexual abuse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019ve done us a great service by opening up your story to us. Bill, you, in coaching husbands to understand this is huge! We need empathy, and we need understanding. If we\u2019re going to apply 1 Peter 3\u2014\u201cto live with our wives in an understanding way\u201d\u2014we need to understand this better. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYour book is a great tool for husbands, whose wives have experienced sexual abuse. We\u2019ve got copies of the book, <em>Help, My Wife Is a Survivor of Sexual Abuse: Answers to Your Most Important Questions<\/em> by Bill Ronzheimer. Go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to order your copy; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com. The number to call to get a copy of the book, <em>Help, My Wife Is a Survivor of Sexual Abuse<\/em>\u2014the number is: 1-800-FL-TODAY\u20141-800-358-6329\u20141-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI know the subject we\u2019ve talked about today has hit uncomfortably close to home for some of you, who have been listening. At FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, one of our goals is to have honest conversations about the real issues that we face in our marriage and in our family relationships. FamilyLife is here to provide practical biblical help and hope for the issues all of us face as we navigate life in a broken, fallen world. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor those of you who have benefitted from our conversation today, the people you have to thank for that are your fellow listeners, those of you who contribute so that <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> can continue to be heard on this station and on various platforms all around the world. Your fellow listeners are the ones who have made today\u2019s program possible and who enable us to reach more people, more often, as we seek to effectively develop godly marriages and families. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you\u2019re a longtime listener, we\u2019d love to invite you to join the team that makes <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> possible for your fellow listeners. You can donate online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or r you can call to make a donation: 1-800-FL-TODAY. On behalf of those who will benefit in the future from the donation you make today, \u201cThank you for being part of the <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> team.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTomorrow, we\u2019re going to find out more about the process that Bill and Pamela Ronzheimer went through that led to healing and liberation in their marriage; and ultimately, how the two of them decided to share with the church what was going on in their marriage. We\u2019ll talk about that tomorrow. I hope you can be with us for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/306079","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=306079"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=306079"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=306079"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=306079"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=306079"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=306079"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=306079"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}