{"id":305988,"date":"2020-05-07T07:01:04","date_gmt":"2020-05-07T11:01:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/women-and-submission\/"},"modified":"2020-05-07T07:01:04","modified_gmt":"2020-05-07T11:01:04","slug":"women-and-submission","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/women-and-submission\/","title":{"rendered":"Women and Submission"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>How has the culture influenced your view of womanhood? Elyse Fitzpatrick, joined by her co-author Eric Schumacher, tells how her thoughts of femininity and submission changed through the years.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-05-07.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:26:57","filesize":"24.67M","filesize_raw":"25872580","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2848,2805,2831,2093],"tags":[4001],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[3438,9619],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-305988","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cultural-issues","category-gods-plan-for-marriage","category-wives","category-women","tag-women","cwp_profile-elyse-fitzpatrick","cwp_profile-eric-schumacher","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/305988\/women-and-submission","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/305988\/women-and-submission","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"C2TMuYwOwj\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/women-and-submission\/\">Women and Submission<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/women-and-submission\/embed\/#?secret=C2TMuYwOwj\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Women and Submission&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"C2TMuYwOwj\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-05-07.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-05-07.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>The Bible refers to wives as helpers of their husbands. Elyse Fitzpatrick says that\u2019s not a demeaning term; it\u2019s actually a <em>powerful<\/em> term.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>The majority of times in the Old Testament that that word is used, it has to do with God; God is the Helper. Our husbands need help; so God made me, as a woman, to be a voice that will speak truth to my husband\u2014to know how to do it\/to do it respectfully\u2014and yet not to demure and say, \u201cNo, I can\u2019t; because I have to be quiet.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, May 7<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You\u2019ll find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. If you\u2019re a woman\/a wife, have you ever felt like your place in the marriage was somehow less important\/less significant than your husband\u2019s place? The Bible says that\u2019s not the case; we\u2019ll see that today as we talk with Elyse Fitzpatrick and Eric Schumacher. Stay with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. From time to time, we pick up hot potatoes and start tossing them around in here; don\u2019t we? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes we do, and we have one today!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We have one that\u2019s still wrapped in foil, and you can\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>\u2014go out for the long bomb. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Oh!\u2014a sports metaphor from our guest, Elyse Fitzpatrick, who is joining us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>And that was a football sports illustration.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>It was a football illustration; good job, Elyse. Welcome!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>Thanks.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Elyse has been here many times of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. She\u2019s an author and a speaker, lives on the West Coast. She has brought with her a friend and a partner from Ames, Iowa, Eric Schumacher, who is a pastor in Ames. Eric, welcome.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric: <\/strong>Thanks; it\u2019s good to be here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Together, the two of them have written a book celebrating the value of women; it\u2019s a book called <em>Worthy<\/em>. When you talk about this, there should be nobody in the audience, who\u2019s saying, \u201cWhy are we talking about celebrating the value of women?!\u201d If that\u2019s your visceral reaction, we have a sin issue we need to deal with\u2014with you; okay? [Laughter] We are stepping into an area that is a heated area, and an area that the Bible speaks to; and there are sometimes differing interpretations. We want to be able to have open dialogue and healthy dialogue on this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI know, Elyse\u2014because I know your background\u2014you did not come to Christianity with a gentle-and-quiet-spirit view of how a woman should function in the church; did you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>No, actually, I didn\u2019t. I didn\u2019t come to Christianity until right before my 21<sup>st<\/sup> birthday, and grew up in Southern California, and really never even thought about, \u201cWell, women should be quiet.\u201d Besides that, that\u2019s just not my personality. So when I started reading passages like 1 Peter 3, with this \u201cgentle and quiet spirit,\u201d I thought that meant gentle and quiet <em>voice<\/em>, which is <em>not<\/em> what it means.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>It means this heart that\u2019s at rest, at peace, trusting Christ, not in turmoil. But when I read that, I was quite confused; because I thought, \u201cOkay, am I supposed to change my personality?\u201d Well, obviously, if my personality\u2019s sinful, it needs to be confronted; but if that\u2019s just who I am, then am I now supposed to be some other kind of woman, who crochets doilies? [Laughter] You know, that\u2019s just not the way I roll.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Your worldview and your values were clearly shaped by the culture. You didn\u2019t have any church background growing up, did you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>You know, actually, my grandmother took me to the Lutheran church. I was actually baptized and confirmed as a Lutheran, but I was not saved and really did not have any kind of Christian background.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Eric, your background\u2014a little different than Elyse\u2019s\u2014right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric: <\/strong>It is. Yes, I was raised in a church-attending home and heard the gospel from a young age.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>When you grew up, did you have fixed views about what men and women should or shouldn\u2019t be or do?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric: <\/strong>I think the views I had, weren\u2019t necessarily taught, but caught. I think, being in a conservative church, only seeing men be pastors\u2014I remember, when my pastor\u2019s wife was ordained as a deacon at a Lutheran church\u2014so I just assumed that\u2019s how those roles worked. I had a father who was a leader in the home, and my mom who I think respected that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt the same time, I had a very strong mom. I remember, as a kid, we were camping somewhere. We were walking back to our camper. I told my mom, \u201cHey, you want to race?\u201d She said, \u201cOkay, I\u2019ll race you.\u201d I said, \u201cWell, you can\u2019t beat me; because you\u2019re a girl.\u201d [Laughter] And she smoked me. [Laughter] She was <em>not<\/em> worried about fragile masculinity at all; she was going to be strong. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I\u2019m wondering, when you got married, Elyse\u2014the idea that a wife should be respectful, submissive, should defer to her husband\u2019s authority and leadership\u2014did that chafe?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>Let\u2019s say that I knew that women were supposed to be submissive, and I assented to it. It\u2019s never been easy for me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Never, even today?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>I have a <em>wonderful<\/em> husband\u2014you know Phil; you\u2019ve met Phil\u2014Phil is very easygoing. He\u2019s never made it hard for me to love and respect him, which I do deeply love and respect Phil. But, I mean, sure; I think that it\u2019s hard for all of us to submit to authority, isn\u2019t it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I had a dad that was super strong. We didn\u2019t grow up in the church, but my dad really encouraged us to be leaders. For two siblings, that just weren\u2019t there\/wasn\u2019t natural; for two of us, when he spoke that, I resonated with that\u2014like, \u201cI am a leader!\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNot growing up in the church, I had no idea what was going on in the church. Giving my life to Christ, it\u2019s kind of like what I do with everything\u2014I am all in: \u201cI am going to serve Him!\u201d \u201cI am going to love Him!\u201d \u201cI am going to follow Him!\u201d I was <em>passionate<\/em> about it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m not quiet, and I\u2019m not reserved; if I feel it, it would come out. So when Dave and I got married and \u201cWe\u2019re going to change the world together; we\u2019re going to follow Jesus together,\u201d\u2014Dave, I think that you have been <em>amazing<\/em>; because you\u2019ve encouraged me. I know that I\u2019ll butt against you and like, \u201cWhat? What are you talking about?\u201d; but you\u2019ve been one to really <em>listen<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Go back to two weeks before you\u2019re married; and you\u2019re sitting at a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage getaway, as an engaged couple, and you\u2019re hearing Dennis Rainey explain to you that wives should submit to their husbands. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes, let\u2019s go back there, Bob. I want to hear\u2014[Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You didn\u2019t grow up in the church, and you want to follow Jesus, and you hear that. Did you go: \u201cThat\u2019s what I\u2019m going to do! I\u2019m going to be a <em>submissive<\/em> woman!\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Thanks for bringing that out, Bob! [Laughter] Actually, when Dennis shared it\u2014Dennis is very much like my dad, so I could see him saying that\u2014and he didn\u2019t <em>force<\/em> so much that submission; maybe I just tuned it out.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt was two years later, when I was sitting in that conference\u2014and a woman was teaching it, who was very quiet; she\u2019s an amazing woman; I love her and I respect her\u2014but her personality is very quiet, demure, probably more passive. I sat in the back of that room, with my arms crossed, because I thought, \u201cThere\u2019s no way that I can be like that!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere was a time that I tried to be. Dave doesn\u2019t remember it, because I didn\u2019t try very\u2014[Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>There was <em>never<\/em> a time that she tried to be. [Laughter] I cannot remember five seconds of that. [Laughter] No; but she <em>does<\/em> respect, and there is a submissive spirit to both of us; but she does submit.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I love men leading. I have three sons; I <em>want<\/em> them to lead. I <em>want<\/em> the church to have men that are calling us\/calling all of us; but I think I got lost\u2014like, \u201cI don\u2019t even know what that means.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Think about this\u2014I mean, you know this, Bob; we talked about it earlier\u2014when our marriage book came out last year, and we end up on the <em>Today<\/em> show, and then <em>Fox News<\/em> starts blasting these things on the internet from our book. The headline was \u201cMarrying You Was the Worst Decision of My Life, and Then This Happened.\u201d That\u2019s what she said; that blasts all over the internet.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOur kids said to us\u2014because it trended; right?\u2014it trended because: \u201cA woman said that to her husband?\u201d\u2014right? Our kids said, \u201cDo not read the comments\u201d; so I didn\u2019t, but I sort of did. [Laughter] When I read the comments, it was <em>men<\/em> ripping Ann for ever saying something like that to her husband.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Well, I shouldn\u2019t have said that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Well, yes; but it was like\u2014I wanted to say: \u201cYes, but that\u2019s the beauty of what God did. She had to say that, so it was honesty.\u201d It is sort of that\u2014you\u2019re not allowed to ever speak that honest to a man\u2014it was like, \u201cNo, that\u2019s a different issue here.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019re talking about worthy; we are both worthy. Does she submit and I submit?\u2014yes, but it was a different issue.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Here\u2019s the thing: there are people listening to us talk about a book called <em>Worthy: Celebrate the Value of Women<\/em>, and we\u2019re talking about submission, and they go: \u201cThose two ideas are incompatible.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u201cYou cannot tell a woman that she needs to be submissive and respect her husband and call that worthy.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIs it possible for a woman to have value and worth and still choose to submit?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric: <\/strong>Absolutely. I think one of the questions we need to ask is\u2014we\u2019re thinking about submission in the marriage covenant\u2014is: \u201cWhat is she submitting to?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014and \u201cWhat is submission?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric: <\/strong>\u2014and \u201cWhat is submission?\u201d\u2014yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJust to go back to Genesis, Chapter 2, where the Lord creates the man and says, \u201cIt\u2019s not good for him to be alone; I\u2019ll make a helper fit for him.\u201d The Lord creates, from his side, a woman. When the Lord presents the woman to the man, you know, he exclaims in poetry\u2014it\u2019s the first song of Scripture\u2014\u201cThis is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh.\u201d Essentially, \u201cShe\u2019s the same thing as me\u201d; he is celebrating her <em>worth<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat\u2019s interesting is that passage doesn\u2019t go on to culminate in talk of headship and submission; it goes on to say: \u201cTherefore a man will leave his father and mother and will cling to his wife, and they will be one flesh. And they were naked and were not ashamed.\u201d What\u2019s really interesting is that, in that culture that Moses is writing to, it was the <em>woman<\/em> who would leave her family and go join her husband\u2019s family. So what\u2019s going on when it talks about the <em>man<\/em> leaving his father and his mother? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think what we see right away is that the man is going to be the one who makes the sacrifices for the sake of becoming one with his wife. The culmination of that passage between man and woman is perfect unity. That\u2019s what the creation of man and woman is heading towards\u2014is perfect unity\u2014which the man self-sacrifices; he makes a sacrifice to achieve that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou trace that theme through the whole Bible; and you get to the end of the Bible, where you have Christ and His people, and it says at the end of Revelation, \u201cThey shall reign with Him.\u201d There is a perfect unity between Christ and His church, where they\u2019re ruling together. How did that happen? He left His Father in heaven, and He came and sacrificed His own <em>life<\/em> for the sins of His bride, and was raised from the dead so that He could make her clean and she could be united with Him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEven when Paul talks in Ephesians 5 about headship and submission, he\u2019s not telling the husband, \u201cYou be the head of the wife.\u201d He says, \u201cYou love your wife the way Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her.\u201d <em>That<\/em> is what the woman is to be cooperating with.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat whole question about quietness and submission\u2014you know, Paul says in \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t1 Timothy that we\u2019re to pray for kings and those in authority so that we can live quiet lives. He obviously does not mean lives in which we don\u2019t speak, or say anything, or raise a concern. Every Christian should want to live a quiet life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs I look through the Bible\u2014and you know, Paul relates the marriage relationship to Christ and the church\/God\u2019s relationship with His people\u2014ask the question, \u201cWhat does it look like for God\u2019s people to be submissive to Him and to follow his leadership?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSometimes you have God\u2019s people, like Moses, when God says, \u201cStand back, Moses; I\u2019m going to destroy Israel and start over again,\u201d and Moses says, \u201cWhoa, whoa, whoa. You can\u2019t do that, God. If You do that, Your name will be mocked,\u201d et cetera, et cetera.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have saints, who are held up as good examples, who are talking back to God and saying, \u201cWhy are You about to do this? This isn\u2019t how things should go.\u201d If it\u2019s okay for someone, who trusts in the Lord, to cry out to Him in a loud voice and say, \u201cWhat are You doing?!\u201d can\u2019t it be possible for a wife to cry out in a loud voice to her husband and say, \u201cWhat are you doing?!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>If you look, too, at the Psalms, which is the believer\u2019s prayer book, if it\u2019s okay for a woman to pray the Psalms to the Lord\u2014\u201cHow long, O Lord? Why are You leaving me like this? Why are you letting this happen?\u201d\u2014wouldn\u2019t that also be appropriate for a wife to say to her husband? But there are places, where women are told that they can\u2019t say that to their husband\/that they can\u2019t push against his authority at all, because that would mean that they\u2019re not being submissive and respecting him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>If you\u2019re sitting with a wife, deeply frustrated by what\u2019s going on in her marriage\/by things she sees with her husband\u2014some of it valid; some of it her own issues that she needs to deal with\u2014how do you coach her to give voice to what she\u2019s saying? Would you say, \u201cGo to your husband and say, \u2018How long will you forget me?\u2019\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>Well, that\u2019s what the Psalms said.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I know! Would you coach her to say that to her husband?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>Well, it depends on the context; right, Bob? Because in some contexts, if she would say that, he would double down or even abuse her.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>So I would not say that in that kind of context; but in other contexts, where you have a respectful marriage and a marriage that\u2019s not abusive, sure\u2014always in the context, too, of respectful communication.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCan I say to my husband, \u201cHow long are you going to keep doing this and disrespecting me?\u201d I need to say that in such a way\u2014because I love him and I want to make knowledge <em>acceptable<\/em> to him\u2014isn\u2019t that what Proverbs says? The wise person knows how to make knowledge acceptable. I want to say to him, \u201cHoney, you\u2019re doing this,\u201d and I need to know him well enough to know when to say that, not when he\u2019s waiting for dinner.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014and even the tone.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>\u2014and the tone\u2014right\u2014so the respectful tone. But certainly to be able to say that, and to let women know that submission does not mean that I never say anything.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014that you don\u2019t lose your voice. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>\u2014that I don\u2019t lose my voice. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe get back to what that word, \u201chelper,\u201d means, which is the Hebrew word, <em>azer<\/em>\u2014which basically is not: \u201cAren\u2019t you a nice little helper? You picked up your toys,\u201d\u2014but <em>that<\/em> word is used over and over again. The majority of times in the Old Testament that that word is used, it has to do with God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>It\u2019s talking about Him as our Helper.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>God is the Helper: we need help; God helps us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOur husbands need help; they need to not be alone. What that means is\u2014they need to not just hear their own voice. God made me, as a woman, to be a voice that will speak truth to my husband\u2014to know how to do it\/to do it respectfully\u2014and yet not to demure and say, \u201cNo, I can\u2019t; because I have to be quiet and respectful.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I\u2019ll say this: our marriage was saved when my wife spoke, in a sense, those words: \u201cHow long are you going to do this?\u201d She said, \u201cI\u2019ve lost my feelings for you\u201d; and when I said, \u201cWhat do you mean?\u201d that\u2019s what basically came out. She wasn\u2019t yelling; she wasn\u2019t screaming; she was just saying: \u201cHow long? How long am I going to be left here, and you\u2019re going to go off and do your ministry thing?\u201d That changed our marriage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf she would have felt like, \u201cI cannot speak,\u201d I don\u2019t know if we would have made it. It was a beautiful moment, even though it was hard; but she spoke.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I think, in my early years, I may have dug my heels in when that word, \u201csubmission,\u201d came up. I just don\u2019t think I really understood it in a biblical context. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, at the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> conferences, and even at marriage conferences, as I teach about this, I\u2019ll bring an umbrella to the stage. I\u2019ll put the umbrella up. As I talk about how God has called the man to lead, and to be our covering in protection and love, I open the umbrella and say: \u201cThe man\u2019s role is almost like the covering of this umbrella. It\u2019s so important; it\u2019s over our family. It\u2019s vital for a healthy family to have that covering\/for a man to step up.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cAnd a woman\u2019s role is just as vital. We are the stem or the handle;\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014that supports.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cwe support the canvas.\u201d I ask the women, \u201cWhich is most important: the covering or the support?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBecause, as a woman, we are the influencers; and if you put the leader and the influencer together, I sit there and think, \u201cThey are both so vital.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I actually want to know\u2014and this would be a good question for both of you women; because I\u2019ve wanted to know, ever since that ten-year anniversary, when Ann felt that from me\u2014I\u2019ve wanted to know: \u201cWhat do I do\u2014or do I often or ever\u2014make you feel \u2018less than\u2019 as a person\/as a woman?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve talked about it a little bit in ministry; but I think that\u2019s an important question for men to ask, and especially for us husbands, to ask, \u201cWhat do I do?\u201d Because I think I do that quite often to make her feel less than, not even knowing it; but it\u2019s like: \u201cI\u2019m the umbrella; there\u2019s no stem. I\u2019m the stem; I\u2019m everything.\u201d I don\u2019t think that, but do I do that. Do I say things? Have you women <em>felt<\/em> that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>Well, I don\u2019t want to say that I\u2019ve felt it a lot from Phil; because again, my husband is quite used to strong women and acknowledging them. However, if I\u2019m a room with a group of people, and perhaps I\u2019m the only woman there, it\u2019s like I\u2019m invisible. I\u2019ve had that experience so many times I can\u2019t even tell you\u2014to be in a situation, with a group of men, who are discussing something important\u2014and to not even have my voice heard, I have often felt invisible.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI wonder, as husbands, when a wife says, \u201cHey, honey, I\u2019m concerned about this,\u201d\u2014whatever it is\u2014if you automatically think: \u201cOkay; well, I\u2019m going to solve that. I\u2019m solving it, so I don\u2019t even really have to think about you; I\u2019m just going to solve it, and I\u2019m not really going to take it to heart,\u201d\u2014or do you just think, \u201cOh well, that\u2019s just a woman; and they\u2019re kind of psycho.\u201d [Laughter] It\u2019s like, \u201cTreat my voice the way you would treat the voice of a man you respected.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I would hope that the wives, who are listening\u2014who may have thought, \u201cIt is not respectful or submissive for me to express how I\u2019m feeling to my husband; I just need to bear this,\u201d\u2014I would hope they would have heard us say today, \u201cNo, that\u2019s not what the Bible teaches about respect and submission, that for you to bear up\u2014we\u2019re all called to bear up under pressure\u2014but for you to be silent and think, \u201cIt\u2019s disrespectful if I speak,\u201d that\u2019s a misunderstanding of what it means to respect somebody. Silence is not default respect; in fact, silence is disrespect.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Speaking the truth in love\u2014both of those are so important\u2014speak the truth, but do it in love.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And \u201cLet your speech always be full of grace, seasoned with salt\u2026 [Colossians 4]\u201d I mean, Ephesians 4 goes on in those passages to give us direction: \u201cYes, let\u2019s not speak sinfully to one another,\u201d\u2014but let\u2019s not be silent, sinfully, either.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think people are probably going to look at your book about celebrating the value of women and think, \u201cOh, this would be a great book for the women\u2019s group to go through.\u201d I think this is a book for <em>men<\/em> to go through\u2014for church leaders to go through\/for husbands to go through\u2014I think all of us need to grapple with this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have copies of the book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to order Elyse Fitzpatrick\u2019s and Eric Schumacher\u2019s book, <em>Worthy: Celebrating the Value of Women<\/em>. You can order it from us, again, online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to order. One more time, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com; the number to call is 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI don\u2019t know how many of you have had the opportunity, over the last several months, to tune in a little more regularly with what\u2019s going on, here at <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. I know all of us have been distracted by the events of this season. We have been working extra hard to make sure that, during this season, you have access to more practical biblical help and hope for your marriage and your family; because we know that sheltering in place has meant that it\u2019s been a little extra stressful around the home for a lot of people. We\u2019ve tried to help meet that gap.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re so grateful for those of you who, in the midst of all that has been going on, have remembered the needs of ministries like <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, especially those of you who are monthly Legacy Partners. You\u2019re the ones who provide the financial backbone for this ministry so that we can continue to do what God is calling us to do here. Thank you for helping us help others during this time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you\u2019re able to help with a donation to support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> right now, we\u2019d love to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d by sending you a copy of Barbara Rainey\u2019s new book, which is called <em>My Heart, Ever His<\/em>, a book of prayers for\u2014really, for all of us\u2014but Barbara had women in mind when she wrote this. The book is our thank-you gift when you make a donation today, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. Again, thanks for your ongoing support of this ministry; we appreciate you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we want to explore what the Bible has to say about the value, and dignity, and worth of women; there\u2019s a lot more than I think most of us realize. Eric Schumacher and Elyse Fitzpatrick will join us again tomorrow. I hope you can join us as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:26:57"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["24.67M"],"filesize_raw":["25872580"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-305988.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-305988.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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has the culture influenced your view of womanhood? Elyse Fitzpatrick, joined by her co-author Eric Schumacher, tells how her thoughts of femininity and submission changed through the years.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-05-07.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>The Bible refers to wives as helpers of their husbands. Elyse Fitzpatrick says that\u2019s not a demeaning term; it\u2019s actually a <em>powerful<\/em> term.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>The majority of times in the Old Testament that that word is used, it has to do with God; God is the Helper. Our husbands need help; so God made me, as a woman, to be a voice that will speak truth to my husband\u2014to know how to do it\/to do it respectfully\u2014and yet not to demure and say, \u201cNo, I can\u2019t; because I have to be quiet.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, May 7<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You\u2019ll find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. If you\u2019re a woman\/a wife, have you ever felt like your place in the marriage was somehow less important\/less significant than your husband\u2019s place? The Bible says that\u2019s not the case; we\u2019ll see that today as we talk with Elyse Fitzpatrick and Eric Schumacher. Stay with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. From time to time, we pick up hot potatoes and start tossing them around in here; don\u2019t we? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes we do, and we have one today!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We have one that\u2019s still wrapped in foil, and you can\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>\u2014go out for the long bomb. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Oh!\u2014a sports metaphor from our guest, Elyse Fitzpatrick, who is joining us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>And that was a football sports illustration.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>It was a football illustration; good job, Elyse. Welcome!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>Thanks.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Elyse has been here many times of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. She\u2019s an author and a speaker, lives on the West Coast. She has brought with her a friend and a partner from Ames, Iowa, Eric Schumacher, who is a pastor in Ames. Eric, welcome.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric: <\/strong>Thanks; it\u2019s good to be here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Together, the two of them have written a book celebrating the value of women; it\u2019s a book called <em>Worthy<\/em>. When you talk about this, there should be nobody in the audience, who\u2019s saying, \u201cWhy are we talking about celebrating the value of women?!\u201d If that\u2019s your visceral reaction, we have a sin issue we need to deal with\u2014with you; okay? [Laughter] We are stepping into an area that is a heated area, and an area that the Bible speaks to; and there are sometimes differing interpretations. We want to be able to have open dialogue and healthy dialogue on this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI know, Elyse\u2014because I know your background\u2014you did not come to Christianity with a gentle-and-quiet-spirit view of how a woman should function in the church; did you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>No, actually, I didn\u2019t. I didn\u2019t come to Christianity until right before my 21<sup>st<\/sup> birthday, and grew up in Southern California, and really never even thought about, \u201cWell, women should be quiet.\u201d Besides that, that\u2019s just not my personality. So when I started reading passages like 1 Peter 3, with this \u201cgentle and quiet spirit,\u201d I thought that meant gentle and quiet <em>voice<\/em>, which is <em>not<\/em> what it means.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>It means this heart that\u2019s at rest, at peace, trusting Christ, not in turmoil. But when I read that, I was quite confused; because I thought, \u201cOkay, am I supposed to change my personality?\u201d Well, obviously, if my personality\u2019s sinful, it needs to be confronted; but if that\u2019s just who I am, then am I now supposed to be some other kind of woman, who crochets doilies? [Laughter] You know, that\u2019s just not the way I roll.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Your worldview and your values were clearly shaped by the culture. You didn\u2019t have any church background growing up, did you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>You know, actually, my grandmother took me to the Lutheran church. I was actually baptized and confirmed as a Lutheran, but I was not saved and really did not have any kind of Christian background.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Eric, your background\u2014a little different than Elyse\u2019s\u2014right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric: <\/strong>It is. Yes, I was raised in a church-attending home and heard the gospel from a young age.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>When you grew up, did you have fixed views about what men and women should or shouldn\u2019t be or do?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric: <\/strong>I think the views I had, weren\u2019t necessarily taught, but caught. I think, being in a conservative church, only seeing men be pastors\u2014I remember, when my pastor\u2019s wife was ordained as a deacon at a Lutheran church\u2014so I just assumed that\u2019s how those roles worked. I had a father who was a leader in the home, and my mom who I think respected that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt the same time, I had a very strong mom. I remember, as a kid, we were camping somewhere. We were walking back to our camper. I told my mom, \u201cHey, you want to race?\u201d She said, \u201cOkay, I\u2019ll race you.\u201d I said, \u201cWell, you can\u2019t beat me; because you\u2019re a girl.\u201d [Laughter] And she smoked me. [Laughter] She was <em>not<\/em> worried about fragile masculinity at all; she was going to be strong. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I\u2019m wondering, when you got married, Elyse\u2014the idea that a wife should be respectful, submissive, should defer to her husband\u2019s authority and leadership\u2014did that chafe?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>Let\u2019s say that I knew that women were supposed to be submissive, and I assented to it. It\u2019s never been easy for me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Never, even today?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>I have a <em>wonderful<\/em> husband\u2014you know Phil; you\u2019ve met Phil\u2014Phil is very easygoing. He\u2019s never made it hard for me to love and respect him, which I do deeply love and respect Phil. But, I mean, sure; I think that it\u2019s hard for all of us to submit to authority, isn\u2019t it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I had a dad that was super strong. We didn\u2019t grow up in the church, but my dad really encouraged us to be leaders. For two siblings, that just weren\u2019t there\/wasn\u2019t natural; for two of us, when he spoke that, I resonated with that\u2014like, \u201cI am a leader!\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNot growing up in the church, I had no idea what was going on in the church. Giving my life to Christ, it\u2019s kind of like what I do with everything\u2014I am all in: \u201cI am going to serve Him!\u201d \u201cI am going to love Him!\u201d \u201cI am going to follow Him!\u201d I was <em>passionate<\/em> about it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m not quiet, and I\u2019m not reserved; if I feel it, it would come out. So when Dave and I got married and \u201cWe\u2019re going to change the world together; we\u2019re going to follow Jesus together,\u201d\u2014Dave, I think that you have been <em>amazing<\/em>; because you\u2019ve encouraged me. I know that I\u2019ll butt against you and like, \u201cWhat? What are you talking about?\u201d; but you\u2019ve been one to really <em>listen<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Go back to two weeks before you\u2019re married; and you\u2019re sitting at a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage getaway, as an engaged couple, and you\u2019re hearing Dennis Rainey explain to you that wives should submit to their husbands. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes, let\u2019s go back there, Bob. I want to hear\u2014[Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You didn\u2019t grow up in the church, and you want to follow Jesus, and you hear that. Did you go: \u201cThat\u2019s what I\u2019m going to do! I\u2019m going to be a <em>submissive<\/em> woman!\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Thanks for bringing that out, Bob! [Laughter] Actually, when Dennis shared it\u2014Dennis is very much like my dad, so I could see him saying that\u2014and he didn\u2019t <em>force<\/em> so much that submission; maybe I just tuned it out.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt was two years later, when I was sitting in that conference\u2014and a woman was teaching it, who was very quiet; she\u2019s an amazing woman; I love her and I respect her\u2014but her personality is very quiet, demure, probably more passive. I sat in the back of that room, with my arms crossed, because I thought, \u201cThere\u2019s no way that I can be like that!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere was a time that I tried to be. Dave doesn\u2019t remember it, because I didn\u2019t try very\u2014[Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>There was <em>never<\/em> a time that she tried to be. [Laughter] I cannot remember five seconds of that. [Laughter] No; but she <em>does<\/em> respect, and there is a submissive spirit to both of us; but she does submit.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I love men leading. I have three sons; I <em>want<\/em> them to lead. I <em>want<\/em> the church to have men that are calling us\/calling all of us; but I think I got lost\u2014like, \u201cI don\u2019t even know what that means.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Think about this\u2014I mean, you know this, Bob; we talked about it earlier\u2014when our marriage book came out last year, and we end up on the <em>Today<\/em> show, and then <em>Fox News<\/em> starts blasting these things on the internet from our book. The headline was \u201cMarrying You Was the Worst Decision of My Life, and Then This Happened.\u201d That\u2019s what she said; that blasts all over the internet.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOur kids said to us\u2014because it trended; right?\u2014it trended because: \u201cA woman said that to her husband?\u201d\u2014right? Our kids said, \u201cDo not read the comments\u201d; so I didn\u2019t, but I sort of did. [Laughter] When I read the comments, it was <em>men<\/em> ripping Ann for ever saying something like that to her husband.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Well, I shouldn\u2019t have said that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Well, yes; but it was like\u2014I wanted to say: \u201cYes, but that\u2019s the beauty of what God did. She had to say that, so it was honesty.\u201d It is sort of that\u2014you\u2019re not allowed to ever speak that honest to a man\u2014it was like, \u201cNo, that\u2019s a different issue here.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019re talking about worthy; we are both worthy. Does she submit and I submit?\u2014yes, but it was a different issue.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Here\u2019s the thing: there are people listening to us talk about a book called <em>Worthy: Celebrate the Value of Women<\/em>, and we\u2019re talking about submission, and they go: \u201cThose two ideas are incompatible.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u201cYou cannot tell a woman that she needs to be submissive and respect her husband and call that worthy.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIs it possible for a woman to have value and worth and still choose to submit?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric: <\/strong>Absolutely. I think one of the questions we need to ask is\u2014we\u2019re thinking about submission in the marriage covenant\u2014is: \u201cWhat is she submitting to?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014and \u201cWhat is submission?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric: <\/strong>\u2014and \u201cWhat is submission?\u201d\u2014yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJust to go back to Genesis, Chapter 2, where the Lord creates the man and says, \u201cIt\u2019s not good for him to be alone; I\u2019ll make a helper fit for him.\u201d The Lord creates, from his side, a woman. When the Lord presents the woman to the man, you know, he exclaims in poetry\u2014it\u2019s the first song of Scripture\u2014\u201cThis is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh.\u201d Essentially, \u201cShe\u2019s the same thing as me\u201d; he is celebrating her <em>worth<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat\u2019s interesting is that passage doesn\u2019t go on to culminate in talk of headship and submission; it goes on to say: \u201cTherefore a man will leave his father and mother and will cling to his wife, and they will be one flesh. And they were naked and were not ashamed.\u201d What\u2019s really interesting is that, in that culture that Moses is writing to, it was the <em>woman<\/em> who would leave her family and go join her husband\u2019s family. So what\u2019s going on when it talks about the <em>man<\/em> leaving his father and his mother? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think what we see right away is that the man is going to be the one who makes the sacrifices for the sake of becoming one with his wife. The culmination of that passage between man and woman is perfect unity. That\u2019s what the creation of man and woman is heading towards\u2014is perfect unity\u2014which the man self-sacrifices; he makes a sacrifice to achieve that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou trace that theme through the whole Bible; and you get to the end of the Bible, where you have Christ and His people, and it says at the end of Revelation, \u201cThey shall reign with Him.\u201d There is a perfect unity between Christ and His church, where they\u2019re ruling together. How did that happen? He left His Father in heaven, and He came and sacrificed His own <em>life<\/em> for the sins of His bride, and was raised from the dead so that He could make her clean and she could be united with Him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEven when Paul talks in Ephesians 5 about headship and submission, he\u2019s not telling the husband, \u201cYou be the head of the wife.\u201d He says, \u201cYou love your wife the way Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her.\u201d <em>That<\/em> is what the woman is to be cooperating with.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat whole question about quietness and submission\u2014you know, Paul says in \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t1 Timothy that we\u2019re to pray for kings and those in authority so that we can live quiet lives. He obviously does not mean lives in which we don\u2019t speak, or say anything, or raise a concern. Every Christian should want to live a quiet life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs I look through the Bible\u2014and you know, Paul relates the marriage relationship to Christ and the church\/God\u2019s relationship with His people\u2014ask the question, \u201cWhat does it look like for God\u2019s people to be submissive to Him and to follow his leadership?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSometimes you have God\u2019s people, like Moses, when God says, \u201cStand back, Moses; I\u2019m going to destroy Israel and start over again,\u201d and Moses says, \u201cWhoa, whoa, whoa. You can\u2019t do that, God. If You do that, Your name will be mocked,\u201d et cetera, et cetera.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have saints, who are held up as good examples, who are talking back to God and saying, \u201cWhy are You about to do this? This isn\u2019t how things should go.\u201d If it\u2019s okay for someone, who trusts in the Lord, to cry out to Him in a loud voice and say, \u201cWhat are You doing?!\u201d can\u2019t it be possible for a wife to cry out in a loud voice to her husband and say, \u201cWhat are you doing?!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>If you look, too, at the Psalms, which is the believer\u2019s prayer book, if it\u2019s okay for a woman to pray the Psalms to the Lord\u2014\u201cHow long, O Lord? Why are You leaving me like this? Why are you letting this happen?\u201d\u2014wouldn\u2019t that also be appropriate for a wife to say to her husband? But there are places, where women are told that they can\u2019t say that to their husband\/that they can\u2019t push against his authority at all, because that would mean that they\u2019re not being submissive and respecting him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>If you\u2019re sitting with a wife, deeply frustrated by what\u2019s going on in her marriage\/by things she sees with her husband\u2014some of it valid; some of it her own issues that she needs to deal with\u2014how do you coach her to give voice to what she\u2019s saying? Would you say, \u201cGo to your husband and say, \u2018How long will you forget me?\u2019\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>Well, that\u2019s what the Psalms said.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I know! Would you coach her to say that to her husband?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>Well, it depends on the context; right, Bob? Because in some contexts, if she would say that, he would double down or even abuse her.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>So I would not say that in that kind of context; but in other contexts, where you have a respectful marriage and a marriage that\u2019s not abusive, sure\u2014always in the context, too, of respectful communication.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCan I say to my husband, \u201cHow long are you going to keep doing this and disrespecting me?\u201d I need to say that in such a way\u2014because I love him and I want to make knowledge <em>acceptable<\/em> to him\u2014isn\u2019t that what Proverbs says? The wise person knows how to make knowledge acceptable. I want to say to him, \u201cHoney, you\u2019re doing this,\u201d and I need to know him well enough to know when to say that, not when he\u2019s waiting for dinner.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014and even the tone.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>\u2014and the tone\u2014right\u2014so the respectful tone. But certainly to be able to say that, and to let women know that submission does not mean that I never say anything.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014that you don\u2019t lose your voice. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>\u2014that I don\u2019t lose my voice. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe get back to what that word, \u201chelper,\u201d means, which is the Hebrew word, <em>azer<\/em>\u2014which basically is not: \u201cAren\u2019t you a nice little helper? You picked up your toys,\u201d\u2014but <em>that<\/em> word is used over and over again. The majority of times in the Old Testament that that word is used, it has to do with God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>It\u2019s talking about Him as our Helper.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>God is the Helper: we need help; God helps us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOur husbands need help; they need to not be alone. What that means is\u2014they need to not just hear their own voice. God made me, as a woman, to be a voice that will speak truth to my husband\u2014to know how to do it\/to do it respectfully\u2014and yet not to demure and say, \u201cNo, I can\u2019t; because I have to be quiet and respectful.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I\u2019ll say this: our marriage was saved when my wife spoke, in a sense, those words: \u201cHow long are you going to do this?\u201d She said, \u201cI\u2019ve lost my feelings for you\u201d; and when I said, \u201cWhat do you mean?\u201d that\u2019s what basically came out. She wasn\u2019t yelling; she wasn\u2019t screaming; she was just saying: \u201cHow long? How long am I going to be left here, and you\u2019re going to go off and do your ministry thing?\u201d That changed our marriage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf she would have felt like, \u201cI cannot speak,\u201d I don\u2019t know if we would have made it. It was a beautiful moment, even though it was hard; but she spoke.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I think, in my early years, I may have dug my heels in when that word, \u201csubmission,\u201d came up. I just don\u2019t think I really understood it in a biblical context. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, at the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> conferences, and even at marriage conferences, as I teach about this, I\u2019ll bring an umbrella to the stage. I\u2019ll put the umbrella up. As I talk about how God has called the man to lead, and to be our covering in protection and love, I open the umbrella and say: \u201cThe man\u2019s role is almost like the covering of this umbrella. It\u2019s so important; it\u2019s over our family. It\u2019s vital for a healthy family to have that covering\/for a man to step up.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cAnd a woman\u2019s role is just as vital. We are the stem or the handle;\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014that supports.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cwe support the canvas.\u201d I ask the women, \u201cWhich is most important: the covering or the support?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBecause, as a woman, we are the influencers; and if you put the leader and the influencer together, I sit there and think, \u201cThey are both so vital.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I actually want to know\u2014and this would be a good question for both of you women; because I\u2019ve wanted to know, ever since that ten-year anniversary, when Ann felt that from me\u2014I\u2019ve wanted to know: \u201cWhat do I do\u2014or do I often or ever\u2014make you feel \u2018less than\u2019 as a person\/as a woman?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve talked about it a little bit in ministry; but I think that\u2019s an important question for men to ask, and especially for us husbands, to ask, \u201cWhat do I do?\u201d Because I think I do that quite often to make her feel less than, not even knowing it; but it\u2019s like: \u201cI\u2019m the umbrella; there\u2019s no stem. I\u2019m the stem; I\u2019m everything.\u201d I don\u2019t think that, but do I do that. Do I say things? Have you women <em>felt<\/em> that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Elyse: <\/strong>Well, I don\u2019t want to say that I\u2019ve felt it a lot from Phil; because again, my husband is quite used to strong women and acknowledging them. However, if I\u2019m a room with a group of people, and perhaps I\u2019m the only woman there, it\u2019s like I\u2019m invisible. I\u2019ve had that experience so many times I can\u2019t even tell you\u2014to be in a situation, with a group of men, who are discussing something important\u2014and to not even have my voice heard, I have often felt invisible.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI wonder, as husbands, when a wife says, \u201cHey, honey, I\u2019m concerned about this,\u201d\u2014whatever it is\u2014if you automatically think: \u201cOkay; well, I\u2019m going to solve that. I\u2019m solving it, so I don\u2019t even really have to think about you; I\u2019m just going to solve it, and I\u2019m not really going to take it to heart,\u201d\u2014or do you just think, \u201cOh well, that\u2019s just a woman; and they\u2019re kind of psycho.\u201d [Laughter] It\u2019s like, \u201cTreat my voice the way you would treat the voice of a man you respected.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I would hope that the wives, who are listening\u2014who may have thought, \u201cIt is not respectful or submissive for me to express how I\u2019m feeling to my husband; I just need to bear this,\u201d\u2014I would hope they would have heard us say today, \u201cNo, that\u2019s not what the Bible teaches about respect and submission, that for you to bear up\u2014we\u2019re all called to bear up under pressure\u2014but for you to be silent and think, \u201cIt\u2019s disrespectful if I speak,\u201d that\u2019s a misunderstanding of what it means to respect somebody. Silence is not default respect; in fact, silence is disrespect.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Speaking the truth in love\u2014both of those are so important\u2014speak the truth, but do it in love.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And \u201cLet your speech always be full of grace, seasoned with salt\u2026 [Colossians 4]\u201d I mean, Ephesians 4 goes on in those passages to give us direction: \u201cYes, let\u2019s not speak sinfully to one another,\u201d\u2014but let\u2019s not be silent, sinfully, either.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think people are probably going to look at your book about celebrating the value of women and think, \u201cOh, this would be a great book for the women\u2019s group to go through.\u201d I think this is a book for <em>men<\/em> to go through\u2014for church leaders to go through\/for husbands to go through\u2014I think all of us need to grapple with this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have copies of the book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to order Elyse Fitzpatrick\u2019s and Eric Schumacher\u2019s book, <em>Worthy: Celebrating the Value of Women<\/em>. You can order it from us, again, online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to order. One more time, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com; the number to call is 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI don\u2019t know how many of you have had the opportunity, over the last several months, to tune in a little more regularly with what\u2019s going on, here at <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. I know all of us have been distracted by the events of this season. We have been working extra hard to make sure that, during this season, you have access to more practical biblical help and hope for your marriage and your family; because we know that sheltering in place has meant that it\u2019s been a little extra stressful around the home for a lot of people. We\u2019ve tried to help meet that gap.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re so grateful for those of you who, in the midst of all that has been going on, have remembered the needs of ministries like <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, especially those of you who are monthly Legacy Partners. You\u2019re the ones who provide the financial backbone for this ministry so that we can continue to do what God is calling us to do here. Thank you for helping us help others during this time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you\u2019re able to help with a donation to support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> right now, we\u2019d love to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d by sending you a copy of Barbara Rainey\u2019s new book, which is called <em>My Heart, Ever His<\/em>, a book of prayers for\u2014really, for all of us\u2014but Barbara had women in mind when she wrote this. The book is our thank-you gift when you make a donation today, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. Again, thanks for your ongoing support of this ministry; we appreciate you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we want to explore what the Bible has to say about the value, and dignity, and worth of women; there\u2019s a lot more than I think most of us realize. Eric Schumacher and Elyse Fitzpatrick will join us again tomorrow. I hope you can join us as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/305988","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=305988"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=305988"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=305988"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=305988"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=305988"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=305988"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=305988"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}