{"id":305982,"date":"2020-05-06T07:00:04","date_gmt":"2020-05-06T11:00:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/the-worth-of-a-woman\/"},"modified":"2020-05-06T07:00:04","modified_gmt":"2020-05-06T11:00:04","slug":"the-worth-of-a-woman","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-worth-of-a-woman\/","title":{"rendered":"The Worth of a Woman"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Guest: Elyse Fitzpatrick, Eric Schumacher | Authors Elyse Fitzpatrick and Eric Schumacher talk about the role of women in the church. In years past, women were often frowned upon and thought less of than men. Women have made great strides through the years: socially, educationally, and economically. But are women considered equal once they step through the church doors? Fitzpatrick reminds us that women typically comprise 50% or more of most congregations and to overlook their insights and spiritual giftings is to miss a great blessing.<br \/>\nShow Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tFind resources from this podcast at https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/.<br \/>\n \tCheck out all that&#8217;s available on the FamilyLife Podcast Network.\u00a0 https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/<br \/>\n \tHave the FamilyLife Today\u00ae podcast and resources helped you?\u00a0 Consider becoming a Legacy Partner, a monthly supporter of FamilyLife.\u00a0https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/legacy<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Authors Elyse Fitzpatrick and Eric Schumacher talk about the role of women in the church. Fitzpatrick reminds us that women typically comprise 50% or more of most congregations and to overlook their insights and spiritual giftings is to miss a great blessing.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-05-06.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:39","filesize":"25.31M","filesize_raw":"26541265","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2848,2805,2831,2093],"tags":[4001],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[3438,9619],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-305982","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cultural-issues","category-gods-plan-for-marriage","category-wives","category-women","tag-women","cwp_profile-elyse-fitzpatrick","cwp_profile-eric-schumacher","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/305982\/the-worth-of-a-woman","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/305982\/the-worth-of-a-woman","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"QB23QfsmRt\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-worth-of-a-woman\/\">The Worth of a Woman<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-worth-of-a-woman\/embed\/#?secret=QB23QfsmRt\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;The Worth of a Woman&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"QB23QfsmRt\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-05-06.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-05-06.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>It\u2019s clear that most of the well-known characters in the Bible are men. Pastor Eric Schumacher says, when you start to read your Bible <em>looking for<\/em> what God says about the worth, and value, and dignity of women, you may find yourself surprised.\n\n<strong>Eric:<\/strong> I started paying attention to where women showed up in the Bible. The first promise of the Messiah, \u201cThe seed of the woman will crush the serpent\u2019s head,\u201d\u2014it\u2019s interesting that God says it\u2019s the seed of the woman; He\u2019s going to come from the woman. I\u2019ve noticed, as I\u2019ve reexamined the storyline of redemption, how many times there are bold, wise, strong, shrewd, brave, courageous women, who rescue the line of the seed.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Wednesday, May 6<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You\u2019ll find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. Eric Schumacher and Elyse Fitzpatrick believe it\u2019s time for us to take a second look\u2014a long hard look\u2014about what the Bible says about the worth of women. We\u2019ll talk more about that today. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I\u2019m curious; have you, Ann, felt like a second-class Christian because you\u2019re a woman?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good question.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wow; that\u2019s a <em>loaded<\/em> question.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It is a loaded question.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I can\u2019t wait to hear her answer.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I started in the ministry in 1980. There were times that I felt very confused of my role: of my voice\/where my place was in the church. I\u2019m not sure I felt like a second-class citizen, because I knew who I was in Christ; but sometimes in the church\u2014yes; yes, I think I did.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Have you observed that as her husband?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, yes; I was wondering how honest she was going to be; yes, for sure.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Being a strong woman\u2014that\u2019s what made it really hard\u2014I kept thinking: \u201cShould I not be strong?\u201d \u201cShould I pretend that I\u2019m not strong?\u201d That\u2019s where it could get tricky, because I\u2019m not just a naturally <em>submissive<\/em>\u2014[Laughter]\u2014I\u2019m very submissive to Dave!\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We have a soulmate with you in the studio today, don\u2019t we?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes! I\u2019m so excited! [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Elyse Fitzpatrick is joining us again on <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em> Elyse, welcome.\n\n<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Thank you, Bob.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Along with Elyse, Eric Schumacher is here. Eric is a pastor from Iowa. Elyse is an author and a speaker, who lives in Southern California. The two of them have worked together on a book called <em>Worthy<\/em> that\u2019s about the value of women\/celebrating the value of women.\n\nEric, I should say welcome to you, as well.\n\n<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Thank you. It\u2019s good to be here.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Elyse, I saw you nodding and moving in, like, \u201cI have felt exactly how Ann has felt.\u201d\n\n<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> It\u2019s funny because, in one sense, when I was first saved\u2014I didn\u2019t become a Christian until 1971\u2014when I was first saved, I was in a church that ordained women to the pastorate. Although, I still felt there was something more important about getting men to affirm you than women.\n\nAfter we left that church\u2014I\u2019ve been married for over 45 years\u2014so Phil and I left that church and went to a more, let\u2019s say, Reformed sort of a church; then I really felt it. It was <em>not<\/em> just that women couldn\u2019t teach on a Sunday morning\u2014something like that\u2014it was that we needed to be quiet\u2014going to 1 Peter 3\u2014[speaking softly] this quiet tone.\n\nWomen, like us\u2014[chuckling]\u2014who have stronger personalities, who are <em>louder<\/em>\u2014I sort of always felt like I didn\u2019t fit in. Then, I started reading the old dead guys; you know? [Laughter] The things that they said about women were <em>shocking<\/em> to me. Yet, still, I don\u2019t think I really took it to heart.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Give us an example of what some of the \u201cold dead guys\u201d shared.\n\n<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> We can even talk about rabbis of old, who would say, \u201cI thank You, God, that I was not born a pagan, and that I was not born woman.\u201d And things that even people that I love and venerate\u2014Luther and Calvin\u2014the kinds of things they said about woman being the source of evil and the reason that the race has fallen\u2014how she is, by nature, nothing other than emotional and a trap. Those kinds of things\u2014they\u2019re still <em>there<\/em>. I think that, probably subconsciously, those things have infiltrated into the life and doctrine of men, who read the old dead guys; so there\u2019s a discounting of the voice of a woman.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We need to frame this conversation a little bit, I think, because you guys know FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>; we know you. We share common convictions that the Bible has things to say about proper role and function of men and women in the church and in the home. Not everybody agrees with this, but we look at this and say there are certain limited things that the Scriptures would say a woman in church ought not do these few things. A woman at home\u2014there should be some deference\/some submission to her husband\u2019s leadership and authority. You affirm that as you write this book on the value of women, right?\n\n<strong>Eric:<\/strong> That\u2019s correct.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What we\u2019re talking about, when we talk about how we ought to think rightly about women in the church and in the home, comes with those caveats in place. But sometimes, Eric, those caveats have so controlled the discussion as to go beyond the bounds of what Scripture is saying\u2014and say: \u201cLet\u2019s push it down even more. Let\u2019s silence women in places where the Scriptures\u2026\u201d\u2014we go beyond what the Scriptures say here.\n\n<strong>Eric:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. I think any time our posture is \u201cSomething\u2019s gone wrong in the church,\u201d or \u201c\u2026wrong in the culture,\u201d and \u201cWe need to recover what the Bible is saying about this,\u201d\u2014we can begin in a posture of recovery, or defense, or even going on the offense. We can begin to define everything we think about an issue, such as men and women, in terms of: \u201cThis is under attack; there\u2019s a threat against this.\u201d\n\nOne of the consequences of that is we begin to fence the law in the sense that the Bible might have these restrictions\/instructions, and we draw boundaries around those so that we don\u2019t get close to violating those. What ends up happening is we begin to say to women, \u201cYou can\u2019t do this and this, because it might <em>look<\/em> like this.\u201d We prevent them from doing things that God has called, equipped, and gifted them to do.\n\nI think, on that note, we begin\/you think about a woman with a strong personality or something to say\u2014and we can begin to be suspicious of them\/to automatically suspect: \u201cShe\u2019s probably trying to usurp my authority,\u201d or \u201c\u2026bring down men,\u201d or something like that, which can be very unhealthy.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We have, obviously, many, many <em>incredible<\/em> women in our churches and in ministries all over. I think a lot of them have felt\u2014I know my wife has felt\u2014like: \u201cI can\u2019t use my gifts,\u201d \u201cI shouldn\u2019t use my gifts,\u201d \u201cI should not even say something in this meeting because I\u2019m strong.\u201d\n\nI\u2019d love to hear your perspective; because we\u2019ve got a man <em>and<\/em> a woman writing a book on women. Honestly, you\u2019d think, \u201cIt\u2019s going to be women writing this\u201d; and Eric, you\u2019re a part of this. Why is that, and what\u2019s your perspective?\n\n<strong>Eric:<\/strong> I\u2019ve been a pastor for 17 years. I came into pastoring with a very strong complementarian theology, like Bob just described. I would affirm in my theology that men and women are ontologically equal: we\u2019re equal in our value, and we\u2019re equal in our worth.\n\nBut as I thought about the distinct roles God might have for men and women in the church and the home, I over-applied those in some ways that weren\u2019t biblical. It took, for me, some strong women coming and saying, \u201cWhy aren\u2019t we able to do this?\u201d or \u201cI don\u2019t feel like our women are being given solid theological education,\u201d\u2014maybe all the training is for the men, and women are being overlooked. Or women coming and saying, \u201cI\u2019m confused about where I can speak and how I can have a voice.\u201d Even noticing, in my own heart\u2014sometimes there\u2019s suspicion about a strong woman and her voice\u2014and realizing, \u201cI don\u2019t know <em>why<\/em> that is, but it is.\u201d\n\nIt\u2019s been a journey for me to think afresh about what the Bible says about women and their role in the storyline of Scripture. For me, just a few years ago, thinking, \u201cIt\u2019s been a long time since I\u2019ve examined these issues and thought critically about them.\u201d\n\nThen, with the rise of the #MeToo movement, I think 20 years ago, as a young knee-jerk conservative\u2014sometimes emphasis on \u201cjerk\u201d\u2014[Laughter]\u2014I would\u2019ve written off the whole #MeToo movement just as: \u201cHell hath no fury like a woman\u2019s scorned. These are women, who got hurt, and they\u2019re angry and trying to burn everything down.\u201d I decided, \u201cI just need to listen; I need to listen to these stories.\u201d As the #ChurchToo movement began to develop, thinking, \u201cI need to listen to what these women are saying they\u2019re experiencing in the church.\u201d\n\nI started paying attention to where women showed up in the Bible. That\u2019s sort of the genesis of this book\u2014is I tweeted out a series of women, who were the first humans to do certain things\u2014it turned into an article. Elyse and I then \u00a0have turned it into a book.\n\nWhat I\u2019ve noticed, as I\u2019ve reexamined the Scriptures, looking for where women show up\u2014that first promise of the Messiah: \u201cThe seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent,\u201d\u2014so often, I\u2019ve looked at that passage and thought, \u201cOh, so we\u2019re looking for the Son,\u201d\u2014which we are\u2014\u201cWe\u2019re looking for the Son that will crush the serpent\u2019s head.\u201d\n\nIt\u2019s interesting that God says it\u2019s the seed of the woman; He\u2019s going to come from the woman. I\u2019ve noticed, as I\u2019ve reexamined the storyline of redemption, how many times there are bold, wise, strong, shrewd, brave, courageous women, who often take initiative to do brave and courageous things to save God\u2019s people and sometimes preserve His deliverer alive.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Elyse, has this subject been a burden in your own heart from before reading Eric on social media?\n\n<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Sure; because as Ann said, as women, this is something we have experienced, even to the point that when I go into a congregation, and all I see is males leading\u2014and again, we have to say this over and over again\u2014we are not pushing against the ordination of males, who are qualified; we are not pushing against that. But we are saying, \u201cOver half the congregation here is women; can we have some representation, somewhere?\u201d Not only that, but when the sermon is being given, is it primarily sports illustrations? [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Hey, wait; wait, wait.\n\n<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Sorry. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We just dove way outside the lines. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> He\u2019s going to throw a flag up and call a time out.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think I ever use sports illustrations, do I?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Maybe a few. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> The question is, am I, as a woman, even acknowledged? Is my gender even acknowledged? Quite honestly, I think, as women, we\u2019ve learned to accommodate ourselves to that; so that I\u2019m not shocked when I go into a congregation and see one gender represented and one gender being talked to and about. However, I think it would be a good thing if men would recognize the fact that more than half of their congregation is not male; and it\u2019s more than half.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Here\u2019s the tension that I\u2019ve felt in the church world. Primarily, we want to apply this in marriage and family; because that\u2019s who we\u2019re talking to. But in the church world\u2014because we\u2019ve all been a part of the church world\u2014I\u2019ve felt a tension at watching men easily\/naturally drift into passivity. We want to call men to active involvement in spiritual matters, because we know their default is to naturally disengage.\n\nWe\u2019ve seen it happen that if women will say, \u201cI\u2019ll do that,\u201d guys go: \u201cGreat; I\u2019ll go home and watch the game. You do that.\u201d All of a sudden, guys have checked out; and it goes badly for us. To overcorrect, what we\u2019ve said is: \u201cWe\u2019ve got to call men up.\u201d Part of the way we call men up is by saying to women: \u201cJust don\u2019t get involved over here; because if you do, guys are going to go back home.\u201d That\u2019s a problem with guys; that\u2019s not a problem with women.\n\nAt the same time, we are modeling to everyone in the congregation something that I think is not a good, healthy biblical model about what the practice of God\u2019 people coming together in worship should look like: it\u2019s men and women joining their voices together to worship God.\n\n<strong>Eric:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s exactly right. Some of that depends on what congregation you\u2019re in and wise shepherding. I\u2019m in the third church I\u2019ve been pastoring. In one of those, I remember, we used to have an annual Thanksgiving meal and a service that followed afterwards. We\u2019d have a time of getting up and sharing what blessings we\u2019re thankful for over the past year.\n\nMy first year or two there, it was almost all women who got up and shared. The women in the church would complain that the men don\u2019t seem very spiritually active. There were men who were. I started engaging the men more and inviting them to do more things. Within a few years, it was almost all men that were sharing at that prayer request time. Women were coming to me and saying, \u201cThis is such a <em>wonderful<\/em> thing, to hear the voices of men giving praise to God in the church.\u201d\n\nOn the other hand, the congregation I\u2019m in now\u2014I\u2019m responsible for\u2014I\u2019m an associate pastor; I\u2019m responsible for organizing our services, leading our music, and those sorts of things. I\u2019ve started with our liturgy readings\/responsive readings; sometimes women will lead the leader parts of those. We alternate between men and women reading the Scripture reading in the service.\n\nWomen have commented on how great it is to hear a female voice in the service to the point, where they\u2019ve said: \u201cWe were out of town. We visited a church, and it was striking to me that I didn\u2019t hear a woman\u2019s voice the entire time we were in church.\u201d I think about the Apostle Paul and his instructions in 1 Corinthians, where he talks about head coverings. The context of it is he\u2019s talking about a woman praying and prophesying in church. Paul seems to expect that, in a local church gathering, you\u2019re going to hear a woman speaking at some point.\n\nAs I think about that\u2014I\u2019m a father of five; I have four boys and one girl\u2014my daughter\u2019s eleven now. Of course, my boys have all been into the Avengers and the Marvel superhero universe. I honestly hadn\u2019t really noticed that my daughter hadn\u2019t been interested in those movies. Then, I took her to see <em>Captain Marvel<\/em>. She absolutely <em>loved<\/em> it; we had to go out and buy a poster of Captain Marvel for her room afterwards. She comes home and she\u2019s says, \u201cI want to watch the rest of the Avengers movies.\u201d I think it was because she saw a woman in that superhero role; all of a sudden, she realized, \u201cI\u2019m part of this story.\u201d\n\nI think that when young girls\u2014or old women, or females in between; and men too\u2014see a women participating in the corporate worship of their Lord and Savior on Sunday morning, and when they see women highlighted in the Scripture, not just as damsels in distress, but as active gifts of God, who carry the story forward\u2014they begin to realize, \u201cThis is my story too,\u201d\u2014not in some radical, feminist sense that wants to crush men and put them down\u2014but in the sense that God said: \u201cIt\u2019s not good for man to be alone. I will make a helper for him.\u201d\n\nI always remind people that\u2014when God says: \u201cIt\u2019s not good for man to be alone. I\u2019ll make a helper,\u201d \u2014the only implied deficiency there is in the one that needs help, not in the helper. You wouldn\u2019t need a helper if there wasn\u2019t something lacking, so it\u2019s not good for the woman not to be present. She is a necessary ally in this great task that God has given us.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I know that\u2014it\u2019s been 30 years now\/maybe 31\u2014Ann won\u2019t\/maybe she\u2019ll remember this\u2014I remember I was going to preach on a Sunday at our church about marriage. I thought of that verse, \u201cIt\u2019s not good for man to be alone\u201d; \u201cWhat am I doing, doing this alone? There\u2019s so many women sitting out there; they\u2019re not going to hear a woman\u2019s perspective. They\u2019re only going to hear me and my sports stories.\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> You\u2019re not going to get over that, are you? [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So I went to Ann\u2014I don\u2019t know if she\u2019ll remember this\u2014and I said, \u201cYou need to join me on this message.\u201d She is like, \u201cI don\u2019t even know what you\u2019re saying!\u201d I go, \u201cI don\u2019t even care.\u201d I honestly said that; do you remember this? I said: \u201cJust speak whatever you want to say to what I\u2019m saying. Of course, I want you to see the notes.\u201d We should have prepared.\n\nI felt that she needs to be up there to represent a woman\u2019s perspective on this; because [otherwise] all the women are going to be like, \u201cOkay; that\u2019s great. I\u2019m hearing from another husband.\u201d Hopefully, it\u2019s good; but that lack\u2019s going to be there.\n\nShe comes up with me\u2014I\u2019ll never forget\u2014we have a Saturday night service and then three or four on Sunday. Saturday night, she sat there, like, \u201cI don\u2019t even know what you\u2019re going to do!\u201d She\u2019s a strong woman; she\u2019s a little upset\u2014like: \u201cYou could\u2019ve at least told me on Tuesday instead of this morning.\u201d\n\nI can remember it like yesterday; it was the <em>best<\/em> marriage message we had ever given\/I had ever given; because she did\/she interrupted and said, \u201cI actually disagree. Here\u2019s how I would say this\u2026\u201d The women are like\u2014it was like Captain Marvel\u2014\u201cI\u2019m up there on that stage; I\u2019m represented.\u201d\n\nI look back now on our legacy at our church\u2014there is <em>rarely<\/em> a marriage\/family message given without a man, saying, \u201cMy woman\u2019s going to be with me on this.\u201d It\u2019s something <em>you<\/em> have modeled at our church; it\u2019s sort of the DNA.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think the walls were going to come down when I sat on the stool beside Dave. When we were talking about the woman being the helper, I said, \u201cI thought, \u2018Why do <em>I<\/em> have to be the helper? Where\u2019s <em>my <\/em>helper?\u2019\u201d [Laughter] I think Dave was like, \u201cOh, no!\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob: \u201c<\/strong>Now, I\u2019m real trouble.\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I said: \u201cI looked it up in the dictionary\/in Webster\u2019s dictionary. It says a helper is a subordinate; someone important tells them what to do. She\u2019s a go-fer; she does the dirty work.\u201d I said, \u201cNo wonder I hate this word!\u201d \u201cBut then, when you go into the Hebrew, then\u201d\u2014that\u2019s why we need to go deeper into the study of what God calls us, as women, because\u2014\u201cwe are worthy.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; I can hear our listeners\u2014some of them drafting the emails in their head that they\u2019re getting ready to send to us\u2014and that\u2019s fine. I mean, it\u2019s good for us to engage in this in a lively way and to be corrected when we need to be corrected. We\u2019re all open to that.\n\nI think the overarching theme of your book, <em>Worthy<\/em>, and of this conversation, is we have to recognize that half of the body of Christ needs to have more opportunity to engage in the life of the church, and in the life of the home, and in\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014to use our gifts.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Exactly. We will all benefit from that engagement. I think this is good for us to think about and to interact about. I\u2019m grateful for the book you guys have written that gives us a chance to dive deep into this. The book is called <em>Worthy: Celebrating the Value of Women<\/em> by Eric Schumacher and Elyse Fitzpatrick. You can order the book from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order at 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com. The phone number to call to order a copy of the book, <em>Worthy<\/em>, is 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nThis has been a season where a lot of life has been canceled\/a lot of jobs have been canceled. We\u2019ve been living in a time when there\u2019s been a lot that has been closed down. That\u2019s been hard for many of us. Here, at FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, we\u2019ve stayed busy\/stayed active. In fact, we\u2019ve been working extra hard to provide help and hope for marriages and families during this difficult season\u2014fresh content that\u2019s available to help you navigate this time of life.\n\nOf course, <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> has been on the air every day during the COVID-19 crisis. We want to acknowledge our gratitude for those of you who have recognized that this is not a time when generosity should be canceled. <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> continues as a listener-supported program, and your generosity is what makes this program possible. I know some have been challenged, financially, during this season; we get that. Others of you have said: \u201cWe\u2019re going to do extra,\u201d \u201cWe\u2019re going to do more.\u201d Thank you for that\u2014for helping <em>us<\/em> get through this time as well.\n\nIf you\u2019re able to help with a donation right now, we\u2019d <em>love<\/em> to be able to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d by sending you a copy of Barbara Rainey\u2019s new book, which is called <em>My Heart, Ever His<\/em>. Make your donation online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. We\u2019ll get a copy of Barbara\u2019s book out to you. Thanks, again, for your support and your generosity during this time.\n\n \n\nNow, tomorrow, we want to talk about what the Bible means when it says a wife is to be a helper to her husband. Is that a term of value, and dignity, and worth? How should that idea be understood? Elyse Fitzpatrick and Eric Schumacher are going to join us, again, tomorrow. I hope you can join us as well.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n &nbsp;\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. 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Elyse Fitzpatrick and Eric Schumacher talk about the role of women in the church. Fitzpatrick reminds us that women typically comprise 50% or more of most congregations and to overlook their insights and spiritual giftings is to miss a great blessing.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-05-06.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>It\u2019s clear that most of the well-known characters in the Bible are men. Pastor Eric Schumacher says, when you start to read your Bible <em>looking for<\/em> what God says about the worth, and value, and dignity of women, you may find yourself surprised.\n\n<strong>Eric:<\/strong> I started paying attention to where women showed up in the Bible. The first promise of the Messiah, \u201cThe seed of the woman will crush the serpent\u2019s head,\u201d\u2014it\u2019s interesting that God says it\u2019s the seed of the woman; He\u2019s going to come from the woman. I\u2019ve noticed, as I\u2019ve reexamined the storyline of redemption, how many times there are bold, wise, strong, shrewd, brave, courageous women, who rescue the line of the seed.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Wednesday, May 6<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You\u2019ll find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. Eric Schumacher and Elyse Fitzpatrick believe it\u2019s time for us to take a second look\u2014a long hard look\u2014about what the Bible says about the worth of women. We\u2019ll talk more about that today. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I\u2019m curious; have you, Ann, felt like a second-class Christian because you\u2019re a woman?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good question.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wow; that\u2019s a <em>loaded<\/em> question.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It is a loaded question.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I can\u2019t wait to hear her answer.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I started in the ministry in 1980. There were times that I felt very confused of my role: of my voice\/where my place was in the church. I\u2019m not sure I felt like a second-class citizen, because I knew who I was in Christ; but sometimes in the church\u2014yes; yes, I think I did.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Have you observed that as her husband?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, yes; I was wondering how honest she was going to be; yes, for sure.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Being a strong woman\u2014that\u2019s what made it really hard\u2014I kept thinking: \u201cShould I not be strong?\u201d \u201cShould I pretend that I\u2019m not strong?\u201d That\u2019s where it could get tricky, because I\u2019m not just a naturally <em>submissive<\/em>\u2014[Laughter]\u2014I\u2019m very submissive to Dave!\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We have a soulmate with you in the studio today, don\u2019t we?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes! I\u2019m so excited! [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Elyse Fitzpatrick is joining us again on <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em> Elyse, welcome.\n\n<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Thank you, Bob.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Along with Elyse, Eric Schumacher is here. Eric is a pastor from Iowa. Elyse is an author and a speaker, who lives in Southern California. The two of them have worked together on a book called <em>Worthy<\/em> that\u2019s about the value of women\/celebrating the value of women.\n\nEric, I should say welcome to you, as well.\n\n<strong>Eric:<\/strong> Thank you. It\u2019s good to be here.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Elyse, I saw you nodding and moving in, like, \u201cI have felt exactly how Ann has felt.\u201d\n\n<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> It\u2019s funny because, in one sense, when I was first saved\u2014I didn\u2019t become a Christian until 1971\u2014when I was first saved, I was in a church that ordained women to the pastorate. Although, I still felt there was something more important about getting men to affirm you than women.\n\nAfter we left that church\u2014I\u2019ve been married for over 45 years\u2014so Phil and I left that church and went to a more, let\u2019s say, Reformed sort of a church; then I really felt it. It was <em>not<\/em> just that women couldn\u2019t teach on a Sunday morning\u2014something like that\u2014it was that we needed to be quiet\u2014going to 1 Peter 3\u2014[speaking softly] this quiet tone.\n\nWomen, like us\u2014[chuckling]\u2014who have stronger personalities, who are <em>louder<\/em>\u2014I sort of always felt like I didn\u2019t fit in. Then, I started reading the old dead guys; you know? [Laughter] The things that they said about women were <em>shocking<\/em> to me. Yet, still, I don\u2019t think I really took it to heart.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Give us an example of what some of the \u201cold dead guys\u201d shared.\n\n<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> We can even talk about rabbis of old, who would say, \u201cI thank You, God, that I was not born a pagan, and that I was not born woman.\u201d And things that even people that I love and venerate\u2014Luther and Calvin\u2014the kinds of things they said about woman being the source of evil and the reason that the race has fallen\u2014how she is, by nature, nothing other than emotional and a trap. Those kinds of things\u2014they\u2019re still <em>there<\/em>. I think that, probably subconsciously, those things have infiltrated into the life and doctrine of men, who read the old dead guys; so there\u2019s a discounting of the voice of a woman.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We need to frame this conversation a little bit, I think, because you guys know FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>; we know you. We share common convictions that the Bible has things to say about proper role and function of men and women in the church and in the home. Not everybody agrees with this, but we look at this and say there are certain limited things that the Scriptures would say a woman in church ought not do these few things. A woman at home\u2014there should be some deference\/some submission to her husband\u2019s leadership and authority. You affirm that as you write this book on the value of women, right?\n\n<strong>Eric:<\/strong> That\u2019s correct.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What we\u2019re talking about, when we talk about how we ought to think rightly about women in the church and in the home, comes with those caveats in place. But sometimes, Eric, those caveats have so controlled the discussion as to go beyond the bounds of what Scripture is saying\u2014and say: \u201cLet\u2019s push it down even more. Let\u2019s silence women in places where the Scriptures\u2026\u201d\u2014we go beyond what the Scriptures say here.\n\n<strong>Eric:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. I think any time our posture is \u201cSomething\u2019s gone wrong in the church,\u201d or \u201c\u2026wrong in the culture,\u201d and \u201cWe need to recover what the Bible is saying about this,\u201d\u2014we can begin in a posture of recovery, or defense, or even going on the offense. We can begin to define everything we think about an issue, such as men and women, in terms of: \u201cThis is under attack; there\u2019s a threat against this.\u201d\n\nOne of the consequences of that is we begin to fence the law in the sense that the Bible might have these restrictions\/instructions, and we draw boundaries around those so that we don\u2019t get close to violating those. What ends up happening is we begin to say to women, \u201cYou can\u2019t do this and this, because it might <em>look<\/em> like this.\u201d We prevent them from doing things that God has called, equipped, and gifted them to do.\n\nI think, on that note, we begin\/you think about a woman with a strong personality or something to say\u2014and we can begin to be suspicious of them\/to automatically suspect: \u201cShe\u2019s probably trying to usurp my authority,\u201d or \u201c\u2026bring down men,\u201d or something like that, which can be very unhealthy.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We have, obviously, many, many <em>incredible<\/em> women in our churches and in ministries all over. I think a lot of them have felt\u2014I know my wife has felt\u2014like: \u201cI can\u2019t use my gifts,\u201d \u201cI shouldn\u2019t use my gifts,\u201d \u201cI should not even say something in this meeting because I\u2019m strong.\u201d\n\nI\u2019d love to hear your perspective; because we\u2019ve got a man <em>and<\/em> a woman writing a book on women. Honestly, you\u2019d think, \u201cIt\u2019s going to be women writing this\u201d; and Eric, you\u2019re a part of this. Why is that, and what\u2019s your perspective?\n\n<strong>Eric:<\/strong> I\u2019ve been a pastor for 17 years. I came into pastoring with a very strong complementarian theology, like Bob just described. I would affirm in my theology that men and women are ontologically equal: we\u2019re equal in our value, and we\u2019re equal in our worth.\n\nBut as I thought about the distinct roles God might have for men and women in the church and the home, I over-applied those in some ways that weren\u2019t biblical. It took, for me, some strong women coming and saying, \u201cWhy aren\u2019t we able to do this?\u201d or \u201cI don\u2019t feel like our women are being given solid theological education,\u201d\u2014maybe all the training is for the men, and women are being overlooked. Or women coming and saying, \u201cI\u2019m confused about where I can speak and how I can have a voice.\u201d Even noticing, in my own heart\u2014sometimes there\u2019s suspicion about a strong woman and her voice\u2014and realizing, \u201cI don\u2019t know <em>why<\/em> that is, but it is.\u201d\n\nIt\u2019s been a journey for me to think afresh about what the Bible says about women and their role in the storyline of Scripture. For me, just a few years ago, thinking, \u201cIt\u2019s been a long time since I\u2019ve examined these issues and thought critically about them.\u201d\n\nThen, with the rise of the #MeToo movement, I think 20 years ago, as a young knee-jerk conservative\u2014sometimes emphasis on \u201cjerk\u201d\u2014[Laughter]\u2014I would\u2019ve written off the whole #MeToo movement just as: \u201cHell hath no fury like a woman\u2019s scorned. These are women, who got hurt, and they\u2019re angry and trying to burn everything down.\u201d I decided, \u201cI just need to listen; I need to listen to these stories.\u201d As the #ChurchToo movement began to develop, thinking, \u201cI need to listen to what these women are saying they\u2019re experiencing in the church.\u201d\n\nI started paying attention to where women showed up in the Bible. That\u2019s sort of the genesis of this book\u2014is I tweeted out a series of women, who were the first humans to do certain things\u2014it turned into an article. Elyse and I then \u00a0have turned it into a book.\n\nWhat I\u2019ve noticed, as I\u2019ve reexamined the Scriptures, looking for where women show up\u2014that first promise of the Messiah: \u201cThe seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent,\u201d\u2014so often, I\u2019ve looked at that passage and thought, \u201cOh, so we\u2019re looking for the Son,\u201d\u2014which we are\u2014\u201cWe\u2019re looking for the Son that will crush the serpent\u2019s head.\u201d\n\nIt\u2019s interesting that God says it\u2019s the seed of the woman; He\u2019s going to come from the woman. I\u2019ve noticed, as I\u2019ve reexamined the storyline of redemption, how many times there are bold, wise, strong, shrewd, brave, courageous women, who often take initiative to do brave and courageous things to save God\u2019s people and sometimes preserve His deliverer alive.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Elyse, has this subject been a burden in your own heart from before reading Eric on social media?\n\n<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Sure; because as Ann said, as women, this is something we have experienced, even to the point that when I go into a congregation, and all I see is males leading\u2014and again, we have to say this over and over again\u2014we are not pushing against the ordination of males, who are qualified; we are not pushing against that. But we are saying, \u201cOver half the congregation here is women; can we have some representation, somewhere?\u201d Not only that, but when the sermon is being given, is it primarily sports illustrations? [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Hey, wait; wait, wait.\n\n<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> Sorry. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We just dove way outside the lines. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> He\u2019s going to throw a flag up and call a time out.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think I ever use sports illustrations, do I?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Maybe a few. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> The question is, am I, as a woman, even acknowledged? Is my gender even acknowledged? Quite honestly, I think, as women, we\u2019ve learned to accommodate ourselves to that; so that I\u2019m not shocked when I go into a congregation and see one gender represented and one gender being talked to and about. However, I think it would be a good thing if men would recognize the fact that more than half of their congregation is not male; and it\u2019s more than half.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Here\u2019s the tension that I\u2019ve felt in the church world. Primarily, we want to apply this in marriage and family; because that\u2019s who we\u2019re talking to. But in the church world\u2014because we\u2019ve all been a part of the church world\u2014I\u2019ve felt a tension at watching men easily\/naturally drift into passivity. We want to call men to active involvement in spiritual matters, because we know their default is to naturally disengage.\n\nWe\u2019ve seen it happen that if women will say, \u201cI\u2019ll do that,\u201d guys go: \u201cGreat; I\u2019ll go home and watch the game. You do that.\u201d All of a sudden, guys have checked out; and it goes badly for us. To overcorrect, what we\u2019ve said is: \u201cWe\u2019ve got to call men up.\u201d Part of the way we call men up is by saying to women: \u201cJust don\u2019t get involved over here; because if you do, guys are going to go back home.\u201d That\u2019s a problem with guys; that\u2019s not a problem with women.\n\nAt the same time, we are modeling to everyone in the congregation something that I think is not a good, healthy biblical model about what the practice of God\u2019 people coming together in worship should look like: it\u2019s men and women joining their voices together to worship God.\n\n<strong>Eric:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s exactly right. Some of that depends on what congregation you\u2019re in and wise shepherding. I\u2019m in the third church I\u2019ve been pastoring. In one of those, I remember, we used to have an annual Thanksgiving meal and a service that followed afterwards. We\u2019d have a time of getting up and sharing what blessings we\u2019re thankful for over the past year.\n\nMy first year or two there, it was almost all women who got up and shared. The women in the church would complain that the men don\u2019t seem very spiritually active. There were men who were. I started engaging the men more and inviting them to do more things. Within a few years, it was almost all men that were sharing at that prayer request time. Women were coming to me and saying, \u201cThis is such a <em>wonderful<\/em> thing, to hear the voices of men giving praise to God in the church.\u201d\n\nOn the other hand, the congregation I\u2019m in now\u2014I\u2019m responsible for\u2014I\u2019m an associate pastor; I\u2019m responsible for organizing our services, leading our music, and those sorts of things. I\u2019ve started with our liturgy readings\/responsive readings; sometimes women will lead the leader parts of those. We alternate between men and women reading the Scripture reading in the service.\n\nWomen have commented on how great it is to hear a female voice in the service to the point, where they\u2019ve said: \u201cWe were out of town. We visited a church, and it was striking to me that I didn\u2019t hear a woman\u2019s voice the entire time we were in church.\u201d I think about the Apostle Paul and his instructions in 1 Corinthians, where he talks about head coverings. The context of it is he\u2019s talking about a woman praying and prophesying in church. Paul seems to expect that, in a local church gathering, you\u2019re going to hear a woman speaking at some point.\n\nAs I think about that\u2014I\u2019m a father of five; I have four boys and one girl\u2014my daughter\u2019s eleven now. Of course, my boys have all been into the Avengers and the Marvel superhero universe. I honestly hadn\u2019t really noticed that my daughter hadn\u2019t been interested in those movies. Then, I took her to see <em>Captain Marvel<\/em>. She absolutely <em>loved<\/em> it; we had to go out and buy a poster of Captain Marvel for her room afterwards. She comes home and she\u2019s says, \u201cI want to watch the rest of the Avengers movies.\u201d I think it was because she saw a woman in that superhero role; all of a sudden, she realized, \u201cI\u2019m part of this story.\u201d\n\nI think that when young girls\u2014or old women, or females in between; and men too\u2014see a women participating in the corporate worship of their Lord and Savior on Sunday morning, and when they see women highlighted in the Scripture, not just as damsels in distress, but as active gifts of God, who carry the story forward\u2014they begin to realize, \u201cThis is my story too,\u201d\u2014not in some radical, feminist sense that wants to crush men and put them down\u2014but in the sense that God said: \u201cIt\u2019s not good for man to be alone. I will make a helper for him.\u201d\n\nI always remind people that\u2014when God says: \u201cIt\u2019s not good for man to be alone. I\u2019ll make a helper,\u201d \u2014the only implied deficiency there is in the one that needs help, not in the helper. You wouldn\u2019t need a helper if there wasn\u2019t something lacking, so it\u2019s not good for the woman not to be present. She is a necessary ally in this great task that God has given us.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I know that\u2014it\u2019s been 30 years now\/maybe 31\u2014Ann won\u2019t\/maybe she\u2019ll remember this\u2014I remember I was going to preach on a Sunday at our church about marriage. I thought of that verse, \u201cIt\u2019s not good for man to be alone\u201d; \u201cWhat am I doing, doing this alone? There\u2019s so many women sitting out there; they\u2019re not going to hear a woman\u2019s perspective. They\u2019re only going to hear me and my sports stories.\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Elyse:<\/strong> You\u2019re not going to get over that, are you? [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So I went to Ann\u2014I don\u2019t know if she\u2019ll remember this\u2014and I said, \u201cYou need to join me on this message.\u201d She is like, \u201cI don\u2019t even know what you\u2019re saying!\u201d I go, \u201cI don\u2019t even care.\u201d I honestly said that; do you remember this? I said: \u201cJust speak whatever you want to say to what I\u2019m saying. Of course, I want you to see the notes.\u201d We should have prepared.\n\nI felt that she needs to be up there to represent a woman\u2019s perspective on this; because [otherwise] all the women are going to be like, \u201cOkay; that\u2019s great. I\u2019m hearing from another husband.\u201d Hopefully, it\u2019s good; but that lack\u2019s going to be there.\n\nShe comes up with me\u2014I\u2019ll never forget\u2014we have a Saturday night service and then three or four on Sunday. Saturday night, she sat there, like, \u201cI don\u2019t even know what you\u2019re going to do!\u201d She\u2019s a strong woman; she\u2019s a little upset\u2014like: \u201cYou could\u2019ve at least told me on Tuesday instead of this morning.\u201d\n\nI can remember it like yesterday; it was the <em>best<\/em> marriage message we had ever given\/I had ever given; because she did\/she interrupted and said, \u201cI actually disagree. Here\u2019s how I would say this\u2026\u201d The women are like\u2014it was like Captain Marvel\u2014\u201cI\u2019m up there on that stage; I\u2019m represented.\u201d\n\nI look back now on our legacy at our church\u2014there is <em>rarely<\/em> a marriage\/family message given without a man, saying, \u201cMy woman\u2019s going to be with me on this.\u201d It\u2019s something <em>you<\/em> have modeled at our church; it\u2019s sort of the DNA.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think the walls were going to come down when I sat on the stool beside Dave. When we were talking about the woman being the helper, I said, \u201cI thought, \u2018Why do <em>I<\/em> have to be the helper? Where\u2019s <em>my <\/em>helper?\u2019\u201d [Laughter] I think Dave was like, \u201cOh, no!\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob: \u201c<\/strong>Now, I\u2019m real trouble.\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I said: \u201cI looked it up in the dictionary\/in Webster\u2019s dictionary. It says a helper is a subordinate; someone important tells them what to do. She\u2019s a go-fer; she does the dirty work.\u201d I said, \u201cNo wonder I hate this word!\u201d \u201cBut then, when you go into the Hebrew, then\u201d\u2014that\u2019s why we need to go deeper into the study of what God calls us, as women, because\u2014\u201cwe are worthy.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; I can hear our listeners\u2014some of them drafting the emails in their head that they\u2019re getting ready to send to us\u2014and that\u2019s fine. I mean, it\u2019s good for us to engage in this in a lively way and to be corrected when we need to be corrected. We\u2019re all open to that.\n\nI think the overarching theme of your book, <em>Worthy<\/em>, and of this conversation, is we have to recognize that half of the body of Christ needs to have more opportunity to engage in the life of the church, and in the life of the home, and in\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014to use our gifts.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Exactly. We will all benefit from that engagement. I think this is good for us to think about and to interact about. I\u2019m grateful for the book you guys have written that gives us a chance to dive deep into this. The book is called <em>Worthy: Celebrating the Value of Women<\/em> by Eric Schumacher and Elyse Fitzpatrick. You can order the book from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order at 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com. The phone number to call to order a copy of the book, <em>Worthy<\/em>, is 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nThis has been a season where a lot of life has been canceled\/a lot of jobs have been canceled. We\u2019ve been living in a time when there\u2019s been a lot that has been closed down. That\u2019s been hard for many of us. Here, at FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, we\u2019ve stayed busy\/stayed active. In fact, we\u2019ve been working extra hard to provide help and hope for marriages and families during this difficult season\u2014fresh content that\u2019s available to help you navigate this time of life.\n\nOf course, <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> has been on the air every day during the COVID-19 crisis. We want to acknowledge our gratitude for those of you who have recognized that this is not a time when generosity should be canceled. <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> continues as a listener-supported program, and your generosity is what makes this program possible. I know some have been challenged, financially, during this season; we get that. Others of you have said: \u201cWe\u2019re going to do extra,\u201d \u201cWe\u2019re going to do more.\u201d Thank you for that\u2014for helping <em>us<\/em> get through this time as well.\n\nIf you\u2019re able to help with a donation right now, we\u2019d <em>love<\/em> to be able to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d by sending you a copy of Barbara Rainey\u2019s new book, which is called <em>My Heart, Ever His<\/em>. Make your donation online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. We\u2019ll get a copy of Barbara\u2019s book out to you. Thanks, again, for your support and your generosity during this time.\n\n \n\nNow, tomorrow, we want to talk about what the Bible means when it says a wife is to be a helper to her husband. Is that a term of value, and dignity, and worth? How should that idea be understood? Elyse Fitzpatrick and Eric Schumacher are going to join us, again, tomorrow. I hope you can join us as well.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n &nbsp;\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. 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