{"id":305944,"date":"2020-04-22T07:00:05","date_gmt":"2020-04-22T11:00:05","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/ending-together\/"},"modified":"2020-04-22T07:00:05","modified_gmt":"2020-04-22T11:00:05","slug":"ending-together","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/ending-together\/","title":{"rendered":"Ending Together"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Dave Harvey believes that when young adults leave home, it reveals what a couple has built throughout their marriage. Harvey reminds couples to get help if needed and stir up the fires that once were flames.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-04-22.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:29","filesize":"25.16M","filesize_raw":"26384766","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2809,2820],"tags":[2877],"podcast_series":[8353],"cwp_profile":[3284],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-305944","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-commitment","category-lifelong-marriages","tag-marriage","podcast_series-i-still-do-2020","cwp_profile-dave-harvey","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/305944\/ending-together","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/305944\/ending-together","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"orbA5b8oax\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/ending-together\/\">Ending Together<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/ending-together\/embed\/#?secret=orbA5b8oax\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Ending Together&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"orbA5b8oax\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-04-22.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-04-22.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>There\u2019s a fundamental question every married couple with children needs to be asking themselves; that question is, \u201cIs our love and commitment to one another what\u2019s holding us together, or is it our kids that are keeping us together as a couple?\u201d Here\u2019s Dave Harvey.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>I think that is a chronic issue, where parenting creates this <em>cause<\/em> that allows you to tolerate a lot of marriage dysfunction. The kids create a kind of gravity, you know, like a centripetal force that keeps everybody together in the same orbit. Then the kids leave and the parents realize, \u201cWe don\u2019t have a marriage; we\u2019re parents.\u201d They\u2019re [children] no longer there, and they don\u2019t know what ground they stand on.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Wednesday, April 22<sup>nd<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You\u2019ll find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. Do you have a vision for what your marriage will be after the kids are gone? Are you nurturing that vision <em>today<\/em> as a couple? We\u2019ll talk more about that today with Dave Harvey. Stay with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. You guys, we\u2019re in kind of the same marriage season\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes, we are.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014with kids having left the home.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Empty nest.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I was thinking about this this week; and I was going, \u201cI didn\u2019t know how much I would like this season, but I <em>really<\/em> like\u2014 [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>You and Dave are like twins.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014this is a <em>great<\/em> season!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Is Mary Ann loving this season? [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>I\u2019m on that team as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Are you?!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I love this season! Again, I was surprised.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I mean, obviously, you\u2019re disappointed when they leave\u2014and you grieve in some ways\u2014but <em>man<\/em>, it\u2019s like a whole new life!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes, he was saying that like two days after they were <em>gone<\/em>. [Laughter] I\u2019m still grieving, like: \u201cI loved that girl! Now, it\u2019s over!\u201d I\u2019m thinking, \u201cWho am I now?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Well, they come home; they just don\u2019t stay. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We\u2019ve been talking this week about seasons and about defining moments in marriage. Dave Harvey is joining us; Dave, welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>It\u2019s great to be back, Bob.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Dave has written a new book on marriage. He wrote a book ten years ago called <em>When Sinners Day \u201cI Do\u201d<\/em>; he\u2019s written a new book called <em>I Still Do: Growing Closer and Stronger Through Life\u2019s Defining Moments<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA lot of couples, Dave, get to the season that we\u2019re in; and they start thinking about divorce, because they have not been preparing for this season; or the emotional toll of the season takes them by surprise; or they just look at each other and go: \u201cWho are you? We\u2019ve been so focused on the kids; we haven\u2019t been doing anything for us.\u201d It\u2019s interesting how this season affects people differently.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>Yes, it\u2019s funny; I was just reading a book by David Brooks, <em>Second Mountain<\/em>, and he had this quote; and I thought, \u201cThat\u2019s it.\u201d He said, \u201cI don\u2019t know of many happy marriages.\u201d He said, \u201cI know a lot of marriages, where parents love their kids.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think that is a <em>chronic<\/em> issue, where parenting creates this <em>cause<\/em> that allows you to tolerate a lot of marriage dysfunction. The kids create a kind of gravity, you know, like a centripetal force that keeps everybody together in the same orbit. Then the kids leave and the parents realize, \u201cWe don\u2019t have a marriage; we\u2019re parents.\u201d They\u2019re [children] no longer there, and they don\u2019t know what ground they stand on.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You know, to be where we are\u2014in a season of marriage that\u2019s a sweet season in this chapter that we\u2019re in, as we look toward the finish line\u2014honestly, that\u2019s kind of the season we\u2019re in; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>That\u2019s kind of depressing. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>But for it to be a sweet season, you would think, \u201cOkay, you <em>must<\/em> have been working hard during the time when you had your kids in order for the marriage to be the way it is.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHonestly, looking back, I wouldn\u2019t say we were really good. We got wrapped up in business-related things or kid-related things, and we probably pressed pause on building our marriage during that season. I think we find ourselves in a situation where\u2014now, that the kids are gone, and we have un-pressed pause; and it\u2019s just the two of us\u2014we did have again a transition season, where we had to adjust to the new normal, where you drive home, and you walk in, and it\u2019s quiet instead of there being a lot of activity in the house; or where the things you have to talk about don\u2019t include the daily activities of the kids. You\u2019re thinking, \u201cWell, if that\u2019s not what we\u2019re talking about, then what <em>are<\/em> we talking about?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDid you and Kim go through a transition when the nest finally emptied for you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes, was it harder for Kim?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>I think it was harder for Kim. I think that there was a way that we both experienced it; but it was different for her in her role and me in my role, as mother and father\/husband and wife. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the ways that God graced us\u2014and it\u2019s not like it was hard work\u2014but we really did have regular date nights\/invested in the marriage; communicated to the kids that: \u201cIt\u2019s first and primarily about the marriage. That the best way we can serve you is to have a healthy marriage,\u201d and believe that. The kids leaving did not become this big, disruptive thing. It was something that we were, I think, prepared for. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNevertheless, the change in rhythm\u2014the sense that you have these people that you love deeply\/that you\u2019ve been so connected to, not needing you in the same ways, and moving on in life\u2014I think a more mature couple would be saying, \u201cWell, that\u2019s great; God bless them\u201d; but I think it pulled at our heartstrings in the same way that it does a lot of folks; we missed that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut there really is another sense, where I think we have tried to say to our children as adults: \u201cWe love you, but we\u2019re not going to be emotionally dependent upon you; so we\u2019re not going to look to <em>you<\/em> for the things that we need emotionally. We want to be there to <em>serve<\/em> you.\u201d I think it\u2019s kind of, maybe, adjusted the relationship to a good place, where we\u2019re not overly needy or dependent upon them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>What do you say to the couple that isn\u2019t experiencing that? I\u2019m thinking of\u2014it could go either way\u2014but the mom, who now the kids have left, and she doesn\u2019t feel this incredible love from her husband. They\u2019re distant; they\u2019ve been parents more than husband and wife. Now the kids are gone, and she\u2019s overly dependent on their desires and running to them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014without being aware of it\u2014because that generally happens\u2014without being aware that you\u2019re tied to them emotionally.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>What would you say to them?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>That\u2019s why it\u2019s a defining moment when the kids leave, because it really does become a defining moment for the marriage. It <em>reveals<\/em> what you really have built.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>Yes, I think, if somebody\u2019s listening and they\u2019re in that position, don\u2019t be ashamed\/don\u2019t be embarrassed. You\u2019re standing next to the rest of us that go through these understandable and necessary adjustments, and that there are a whole lot of people that understand and can relate to what you\u2019re feeling and where you\u2019re living right now.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think the danger that you have is the shame that you may feel about it\u2014that you somehow feel like you should be in a different place; that it shouldn\u2019t be like this; that somehow, because of the value system that you\u2019ve embraced: the church go-to\/the passages you\u2019ve memorized\u2014that you shouldn\u2019t have these feelings or this experience.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut really, I think you should look at it as a rescue. There\u2019s a loving God, who is surfacing this; because this is a time, where you\u2019re being prepared to finish the race strong. Don\u2019t sit on this\u2014reach out; get help\u2014be honest with your spouse about where you are and how you\u2019re feeling.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I think, a lot of times, in this season, couples look at each other and say, \u201cWe don\u2019t have anything in common anymore.\u201d This is where you may need someone, who can sit down and say: \u201cLet\u2019s rediscover: you do have things in common. You have kids in common, even if they\u2019re not still at home. You have things that you <em>had<\/em> in common, years ago, that brought you together that have atrophied. Let\u2019s rediscover the commonalities.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>\u201cYou have God in common.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes, that\u2019s right. Although, some spouses would say, \u201cNo, that faded for one of us during the marriage,\u201d\u2014and that\u2019s part of the frustration that the husband or the wife is feeling right now\u2014is that their spouse is less spiritually involved than they were maybe ten years ago.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut you can come back and say: \u201cWhat are those commonalities?\u201d and \u201cWhat are the commonalities we <em>should<\/em> be building our marriage around?\u201d That\u2019s where you can say, \u201cWhere does God fit into our relationship in the years ahead?\u201d If one has drifted, let\u2019s address that and ask the question, \u201cWhat does this mean for who you are, and for where our marriage is, and for where it needs to be?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut your point: you may need some outside help. This may not be something that a husband and wife can just do a weekend getaway and tackle on their own, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>Yes, I think folks have to realize: \u201cIf you\u2019re listening, and you have teenage kids, there is an experience that awaits you that\u2019s going to shuffle your relationships with the kids. It\u2019s an inevitable thing.\u201d It doesn\u2019t mean they\u2019re going to be worse; in fact, I think it could be positioning you for them to be even better as you cultivate a relationship with your adult kids. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut this transition of the kids leaving home is a defining moment in life, because it really does have a seismic impact upon your relationship with your spouse; and then it necessarily redefines your relationship with your kids. I mean, I read a quote by C.S. Lewis, where he said, \u201cThe hour that they need me no longer should be our greatest reward.\u201d You know, there\u2019s a sense where we\u2019re building for this day, and that this is a wonderful thing for a parent to achieve.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut we look at it\u2014and we get this\u2014but we look at it like a funeral\/we feel like it\u2019s a death\u2014but it\u2019s really this incredible victory to be able to deliver somebody into relative independence and for them to be able to kind of run their life, as an adult, in a way that is moving: stepping toward God in ways and stepping toward maturity in ways that can be celebrated.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I think we\u2019ve found out\u2014maybe I should say <em>I<\/em> have discovered\u2014a couple of things. One, when the kids left\u2014like Bob and I had said, I was really excited; we all said that\u2014it was like, \u201cWow, this is better than I thought!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHere\u2019s what I <em>didn\u2019t<\/em> anticipate: I thought we\u2019d have more time\u2014you know, like we\u2019ve all said\u2014you walk into an empty house; there\u2019s not commotion. In some ways, you miss that, like: \u201cWow; it used to be\u2026\u201d; but there\u2019s another part that\u2019s like: \u201cThis is awesome! I can go out in the kitchen and get something. I can lie down; I can take a nap.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHere\u2019s what I didn\u2019t anticipate: \u201cThis free time I\u2019m going to have, I\u2019m going to celebrate.\u201d No, what I did is\u2014I dialed up more ministry\/started doing more things\u2014didn\u2019t even realize it. We\u2019re eating out more than we\u2019re eating at home, because we\u2019re out doing things. We got <em>busier<\/em> in the absence of the kids being there, not sort of saying, \u201cLet\u2019s cherish some rest together.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>When are we going to rest? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Here\u2019s where I was going\u2014and Ann\u2019s going to be like, \u201cYes,\u201d\u2014I\u2019ll be really honest; she has said to me several times this year, \u201cI feel like we\u2019re business partners.\u201d That was <em>never<\/em> something I wanted; but it\u2019s like: \u201cYes, we\u2019re driving hard in ministry; she\u2019s beside me; that\u2019s a beautiful thing, but we\u2019re business partners.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat made me realize\u2014as a husband; and I\u2019m sure it\u2019s the same for Ann\u2014\u201cI need to pursue her, romantically, as an empty nester now.\u201d That doesn\u2019t go away; but I\u2019ve drifted into: \u201cI\u2019m a dad; she\u2019s a mom.\u201d Now the kids are gone; it\u2019s like: \u201cWait, wait, wait. We\u2019re a husband and wife. We need to, not just date, but kiss\/hold each other.\u201d You know what I\u2019m saying?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>That had drifted away, partly because of me; I\u2019m just driving, and now I\u2019m driving even harder because I can.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think a lot of couples probably experience that in some way, whether it\u2019s ministry or their job or whatever. You just start doing a lot of things together, but you\u2019re <em>not<\/em> in love again.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Dave, can you counsel us right now? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I think he is, Ann.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>Well, these are the ways I\u2019ve failed; so I can share with you out of my weakness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I think there might be\u2014you tell me\u2014one of your other defining moments was when dreams disappoint.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Sometimes these two sort of combine; it\u2019s like, \u201cNow I\u2019m an empty nester; and I\u2019m sort of disappointed, where I thought I\u2019d be or where I thought our marriage would be.\u201d Is that true?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>There\u2019s a vision people carry for what marriage will be like, when the kids are gone or in old age, that evaporates through the rigor and work of raising the kids; and they\u2019re <em>not<\/em> even aware that it\u2019s gone. That\u2019s where the kids end up becoming the glue, so they don\u2019t even realize they\u2019re not living out of a vision for the future; they\u2019re just managing the present.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs a result, the kids leave and, again, these things surface. They realize, \u201cOh my goodness, the dream I had about who we were going to be\/what we were going to be\u2014it\u2019s not only not there\u2014but I don\u2019t see it ever being able to come about!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>How do we re-establish that dream? How do we dream again with our spouse?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>I think we have to evaluate whether the dream was a legitimate dream. Was it a dream that\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014a fantasy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>\u2014a fantasy; because a lot of times it\u2019s not informed by reality\/informed by age.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne experience I had, not long ago\u2014I\u2019m sitting in Starbucks. This guy is talking, and I think he\u2019s talking to a guy that is his pastor. I wasn\u2019t eavesdropping; the guy was talking loud enough for all of Starbucks to hear him. [Laughter] He\u2019s basically telling this guy\/this other guy, who\u2019s counseling him, that he can\u2019t believe that his wife won\u2019t have sex with him every day. He can\u2019t understand how this could be the arrangement, and he <em>feels<\/em> like he should have justifiable reasons to divorce her for not having sex every day.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m sitting there, and I\u2019m thinking\u2014I mean, the guy\u2019s probably 70-something years old\u2014I\u2019m thinking: \u201cYes, isn\u2019t this the way that it is? We have these expectations\/this dream for what it\u2019s supposed to be like in old age; and man, that can drive us to the point, where we\u2019re even talking about separating, because it\u2019s this principle that we have to uphold.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You end your book in an interesting way. I don\u2019t know that I\u2019ve ever read a marriage book that ends with reflections on a short story from a Russian author; but talk about the story and about why you brought this in at the conclusion of the book, <em>I Still Do<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>You know, the final chapter is on\u2014<em>The Death of<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em><em>Ivan Ilyich<\/em>, which is a short story by Leo Tolstoy\u2014the theme of the chapter is how grace is greater than the time and the moments we waste.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIvan Ilyich is a fascinating character that Tolstoy created. I mean, he kind of represents the morally-shallow person. He\u2019s a government worker\u2014which has nothing to do with him being shallow\u2014but this is the way Tolstoy portrays him: government worker, kind of dutiful, somewhat intelligent; but he\u2019s self-obsessed; he is the consummate poser and always positioning himself, not according to inner convictions, but according to the environment\/according to people that are around him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe lives for the praise of other people, and probably most apparent in the character development is he lives this unexamined life. Ilyich is not developed as somebody who is evil; he emerges from the pages as somebody who\u2019s ambivalent. That is directed towards his marriage: he has this wife. He lives this distracted, wasted life, where he\u2019s ambivalent toward this marriage: distracted about his marriage and, overall, just passive. It kind of comes at you as an inconsequential life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne day, Ivan detects a pain in his side. Because he\u2019s self-obsessive and totally almost narcissistic\u2014the pain is never diagnosed; you never even know whether it\u2019s a legitimate pain\u2014but he begins to die because he\u2019s imagining this pain that is so significant that he basically creates the reality that he fears. With the dying comes this terror of the realization that he has wasted his marriage\/that he has wasted his life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, right before his death, there\u2019s a burst of light and a burst of truth. Again, you have to just appreciate Tolstoy\u2019s writing and how he creates this character. He creates this deathbed conversion\u2014it\u2019s just phenomenal writing\u2014so he\u2019s converted; then he dies.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe point that I kind of pull out of that, though, is that here you have this life that, from an earthly standpoint seems like it\u2019s totally been wasted\/a marriage that seems like it\u2019s been totally wasted; and yet there is grace. There\u2019s a power, that\u2019s beautiful, that breaks in that is capable of snatching somebody from the fires of hell, even at death: it\u2019s the thief on the cross; it\u2019s the worker on the eleventh hour, who gets paid the same amount as the ones who started the day.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think that the thinking believer <em>knows<\/em> that we\u2019ve all wasted\u2014I <em>know<\/em> I\u2019ve wasted time: there are things I\u2019ve wasted\/opportunities I\u2019ve wasted in my marriage\u2014if you\u2019re going to honestly assess yourself, it\u2019s not like Ivan is this unusual character; we\u2019re all Ivan in some way. But the good news is that grace is big enough and powerful enough to meet us in our waste and to redeem us nonetheless.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I think all of us, as husbands and wives and moms and dads, look back on our marriage\u2014whether we\u2019ve been married for five years or fifty years\u2014we look back and go: \u201cWe have regrets. There are things we would do differently if we could do it again: \u2018I wish we hadn\u2019t done that,\u2019 \u2018I wish we\u2019d known better here and there.\u2019\u201d This chapter reminds me that God is in the midst of all of that, providentially, and even in our mistakes and our failures\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014and it\u2019s never too late.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That\u2019s right; we can turn it. We can look back on that and say, \u201cYes, we\u2019ve made mistakes,\u201d but don\u2019t let that define you. I\u2019m thinking of the scene in the movie, <em>Schindler\u2019s List<\/em>, where Oscar Schindler is confronted with the idea that he could have done more. As he\u2019s starting to break down and going, \u201cI could have saved more people,\u201d somebody comes alongside him and says, \u201cYou did so much.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe can look back and go, \u201cI wish I had done this,\u201d but God is at work in the midst of all of it for His purposes and for His glory. We can do as the Apostle Paul said, looking at his own life, and say, \u201cForgetting what lies behind, I\u2019m going to press on from this point and live my life with fresh resolve for the purposes of God.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s been <em>so good<\/em> to talk about this and so helpful. I do hope a lot of our listeners will get your book, <em>I Still Do<\/em>, because I think they will find it, as so many here at FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> have found it, to be a refreshing, fresh look at marriage from a different perspective than a lot of books we\u2019ve read. Thank you for writing this, and thanks for being here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>Well, I\u2019m honored to be able to enjoy these conversations. Thanks a lot for the invitation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Dave Harvey\u2019s book is called <em>I Still Do: Growing Closer and Stronger Through Life\u2019s Defining Moments<\/em>. This has certainly been a season of defining moments, I think, for all of us. The book is available to order online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call to order: 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. You can also order by calling 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, what we\u2019ve been talking about this week\u2014about being isolated in marriage; Dave Harvey called it emotional estrangement\u2014David Robbins, the president of FamilyLife, is here with us. You and Meg have had seasons like this in your marriage, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David: <\/strong>Absolutely; I\u2019m thinking of one of our more recent situations, where we were drifting apart\u2014not necessarily because of sin, but because of just being at different places\u2014and having to address it in our lives. It was just a few months ago, where I was waking up at three a.m. and thinking about things with ministry and work, and some decisions that were going to affect a lot of people; and then I would lean over and go, \u201cHey, Meg, you awake?\u201d and she would go, \u201cYes, I\u2019m awake.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cWhat are you thinking about?\u201d She would go into talking about kids, and some of the things they were processing in life, and things that were keeping her up. Then I remember the distinct moment that we finally found space to talk about it. She just said, \u201cYou know, I know we\u2019re both going through a really stressful time; and I don\u2019t understand why it\u2019s never our kids, who are waking you up in the middle of the night.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCertainly, it was a wakeup call\/a comment that I needed to hear. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David: <\/strong>Let alone, you pile on top of that the internal dialogue: \u201cAnd you\u2019re the president of FamilyLife,\u201d [Laughter] and what had to be processed there. But her being honest, made us pause\/made us pause seriously enough to get emotionally in it together. It didn\u2019t lead to any quick fixes and didn\u2019t take away any of the stressful situations we were walking through, but it did lead to deeper levels of understanding, and of knowing and of caring for one another, and being in it together.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs you said, emotional estrangement is not what God desires. If we\u2019re willing to reflect, to pause, to talk, we can go home and do that right now. Whatever\u2019s kind of drifting us apart, even the small things, it leads to an understanding of one another; and God will meet us in that honest place and lead us toward unity and oneness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You know, our hope\/our prayer every day, here on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, is the conversations you hear will help you, in the stressful seasons of life, be more prepared for them\/be more ready to engage with one another. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf that\u2019s been the case for you, as a regular listener to this program, can we ask you to invest in the ongoing work of this ministry so that we can continue to help tens of thousands of couples every day? That\u2019s what you\u2019re investing in: you\u2019re investing in the marriages and the families of men and woman, all around the world, who are seeking to anchor their family in Christ.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can donate to support <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation. As you might imagine, this is a particularly challenging time for our ministry, as it is for a lot of ministries; so if you can be generous in your support today, just know that is <em>so <\/em>appreciated. We\u2019re <em>so grateful<\/em> for your partnership with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope you can join us back tomorrow. We\u2019re going to hear from a couple, who has been through a challenging season in their marriage and family\u2014a couple of very unexpected health challenges. We\u2019ll hear from Chris and Mary Herndon tomorrow. I hope you can tune in for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:27:29"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["25.16M"],"filesize_raw":["26384766"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-305944.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-305944.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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Harvey believes that when young adults leave home, it reveals what a couple has built throughout their marriage. Harvey reminds couples to get help if needed and stir up the fires that once were flames.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-04-22.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>There\u2019s a fundamental question every married couple with children needs to be asking themselves; that question is, \u201cIs our love and commitment to one another what\u2019s holding us together, or is it our kids that are keeping us together as a couple?\u201d Here\u2019s Dave Harvey.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>I think that is a chronic issue, where parenting creates this <em>cause<\/em> that allows you to tolerate a lot of marriage dysfunction. The kids create a kind of gravity, you know, like a centripetal force that keeps everybody together in the same orbit. Then the kids leave and the parents realize, \u201cWe don\u2019t have a marriage; we\u2019re parents.\u201d They\u2019re [children] no longer there, and they don\u2019t know what ground they stand on.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Wednesday, April 22<sup>nd<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You\u2019ll find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. Do you have a vision for what your marriage will be after the kids are gone? Are you nurturing that vision <em>today<\/em> as a couple? We\u2019ll talk more about that today with Dave Harvey. Stay with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. You guys, we\u2019re in kind of the same marriage season\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes, we are.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014with kids having left the home.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Empty nest.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I was thinking about this this week; and I was going, \u201cI didn\u2019t know how much I would like this season, but I <em>really<\/em> like\u2014 [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>You and Dave are like twins.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014this is a <em>great<\/em> season!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Is Mary Ann loving this season? [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>I\u2019m on that team as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Are you?!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I love this season! Again, I was surprised.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I mean, obviously, you\u2019re disappointed when they leave\u2014and you grieve in some ways\u2014but <em>man<\/em>, it\u2019s like a whole new life!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes, he was saying that like two days after they were <em>gone<\/em>. [Laughter] I\u2019m still grieving, like: \u201cI loved that girl! Now, it\u2019s over!\u201d I\u2019m thinking, \u201cWho am I now?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Well, they come home; they just don\u2019t stay. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We\u2019ve been talking this week about seasons and about defining moments in marriage. Dave Harvey is joining us; Dave, welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>It\u2019s great to be back, Bob.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Dave has written a new book on marriage. He wrote a book ten years ago called <em>When Sinners Day \u201cI Do\u201d<\/em>; he\u2019s written a new book called <em>I Still Do: Growing Closer and Stronger Through Life\u2019s Defining Moments<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA lot of couples, Dave, get to the season that we\u2019re in; and they start thinking about divorce, because they have not been preparing for this season; or the emotional toll of the season takes them by surprise; or they just look at each other and go: \u201cWho are you? We\u2019ve been so focused on the kids; we haven\u2019t been doing anything for us.\u201d It\u2019s interesting how this season affects people differently.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>Yes, it\u2019s funny; I was just reading a book by David Brooks, <em>Second Mountain<\/em>, and he had this quote; and I thought, \u201cThat\u2019s it.\u201d He said, \u201cI don\u2019t know of many happy marriages.\u201d He said, \u201cI know a lot of marriages, where parents love their kids.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think that is a <em>chronic<\/em> issue, where parenting creates this <em>cause<\/em> that allows you to tolerate a lot of marriage dysfunction. The kids create a kind of gravity, you know, like a centripetal force that keeps everybody together in the same orbit. Then the kids leave and the parents realize, \u201cWe don\u2019t have a marriage; we\u2019re parents.\u201d They\u2019re [children] no longer there, and they don\u2019t know what ground they stand on.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You know, to be where we are\u2014in a season of marriage that\u2019s a sweet season in this chapter that we\u2019re in, as we look toward the finish line\u2014honestly, that\u2019s kind of the season we\u2019re in; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>That\u2019s kind of depressing. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>But for it to be a sweet season, you would think, \u201cOkay, you <em>must<\/em> have been working hard during the time when you had your kids in order for the marriage to be the way it is.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHonestly, looking back, I wouldn\u2019t say we were really good. We got wrapped up in business-related things or kid-related things, and we probably pressed pause on building our marriage during that season. I think we find ourselves in a situation where\u2014now, that the kids are gone, and we have un-pressed pause; and it\u2019s just the two of us\u2014we did have again a transition season, where we had to adjust to the new normal, where you drive home, and you walk in, and it\u2019s quiet instead of there being a lot of activity in the house; or where the things you have to talk about don\u2019t include the daily activities of the kids. You\u2019re thinking, \u201cWell, if that\u2019s not what we\u2019re talking about, then what <em>are<\/em> we talking about?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDid you and Kim go through a transition when the nest finally emptied for you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes, was it harder for Kim?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>I think it was harder for Kim. I think that there was a way that we both experienced it; but it was different for her in her role and me in my role, as mother and father\/husband and wife. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the ways that God graced us\u2014and it\u2019s not like it was hard work\u2014but we really did have regular date nights\/invested in the marriage; communicated to the kids that: \u201cIt\u2019s first and primarily about the marriage. That the best way we can serve you is to have a healthy marriage,\u201d and believe that. The kids leaving did not become this big, disruptive thing. It was something that we were, I think, prepared for. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNevertheless, the change in rhythm\u2014the sense that you have these people that you love deeply\/that you\u2019ve been so connected to, not needing you in the same ways, and moving on in life\u2014I think a more mature couple would be saying, \u201cWell, that\u2019s great; God bless them\u201d; but I think it pulled at our heartstrings in the same way that it does a lot of folks; we missed that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut there really is another sense, where I think we have tried to say to our children as adults: \u201cWe love you, but we\u2019re not going to be emotionally dependent upon you; so we\u2019re not going to look to <em>you<\/em> for the things that we need emotionally. We want to be there to <em>serve<\/em> you.\u201d I think it\u2019s kind of, maybe, adjusted the relationship to a good place, where we\u2019re not overly needy or dependent upon them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>What do you say to the couple that isn\u2019t experiencing that? I\u2019m thinking of\u2014it could go either way\u2014but the mom, who now the kids have left, and she doesn\u2019t feel this incredible love from her husband. They\u2019re distant; they\u2019ve been parents more than husband and wife. Now the kids are gone, and she\u2019s overly dependent on their desires and running to them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014without being aware of it\u2014because that generally happens\u2014without being aware that you\u2019re tied to them emotionally.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>What would you say to them?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>That\u2019s why it\u2019s a defining moment when the kids leave, because it really does become a defining moment for the marriage. It <em>reveals<\/em> what you really have built.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>Yes, I think, if somebody\u2019s listening and they\u2019re in that position, don\u2019t be ashamed\/don\u2019t be embarrassed. You\u2019re standing next to the rest of us that go through these understandable and necessary adjustments, and that there are a whole lot of people that understand and can relate to what you\u2019re feeling and where you\u2019re living right now.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think the danger that you have is the shame that you may feel about it\u2014that you somehow feel like you should be in a different place; that it shouldn\u2019t be like this; that somehow, because of the value system that you\u2019ve embraced: the church go-to\/the passages you\u2019ve memorized\u2014that you shouldn\u2019t have these feelings or this experience.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut really, I think you should look at it as a rescue. There\u2019s a loving God, who is surfacing this; because this is a time, where you\u2019re being prepared to finish the race strong. Don\u2019t sit on this\u2014reach out; get help\u2014be honest with your spouse about where you are and how you\u2019re feeling.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I think, a lot of times, in this season, couples look at each other and say, \u201cWe don\u2019t have anything in common anymore.\u201d This is where you may need someone, who can sit down and say: \u201cLet\u2019s rediscover: you do have things in common. You have kids in common, even if they\u2019re not still at home. You have things that you <em>had<\/em> in common, years ago, that brought you together that have atrophied. Let\u2019s rediscover the commonalities.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>\u201cYou have God in common.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes, that\u2019s right. Although, some spouses would say, \u201cNo, that faded for one of us during the marriage,\u201d\u2014and that\u2019s part of the frustration that the husband or the wife is feeling right now\u2014is that their spouse is less spiritually involved than they were maybe ten years ago.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut you can come back and say: \u201cWhat are those commonalities?\u201d and \u201cWhat are the commonalities we <em>should<\/em> be building our marriage around?\u201d That\u2019s where you can say, \u201cWhere does God fit into our relationship in the years ahead?\u201d If one has drifted, let\u2019s address that and ask the question, \u201cWhat does this mean for who you are, and for where our marriage is, and for where it needs to be?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut your point: you may need some outside help. This may not be something that a husband and wife can just do a weekend getaway and tackle on their own, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>Yes, I think folks have to realize: \u201cIf you\u2019re listening, and you have teenage kids, there is an experience that awaits you that\u2019s going to shuffle your relationships with the kids. It\u2019s an inevitable thing.\u201d It doesn\u2019t mean they\u2019re going to be worse; in fact, I think it could be positioning you for them to be even better as you cultivate a relationship with your adult kids. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut this transition of the kids leaving home is a defining moment in life, because it really does have a seismic impact upon your relationship with your spouse; and then it necessarily redefines your relationship with your kids. I mean, I read a quote by C.S. Lewis, where he said, \u201cThe hour that they need me no longer should be our greatest reward.\u201d You know, there\u2019s a sense where we\u2019re building for this day, and that this is a wonderful thing for a parent to achieve.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut we look at it\u2014and we get this\u2014but we look at it like a funeral\/we feel like it\u2019s a death\u2014but it\u2019s really this incredible victory to be able to deliver somebody into relative independence and for them to be able to kind of run their life, as an adult, in a way that is moving: stepping toward God in ways and stepping toward maturity in ways that can be celebrated.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I think we\u2019ve found out\u2014maybe I should say <em>I<\/em> have discovered\u2014a couple of things. One, when the kids left\u2014like Bob and I had said, I was really excited; we all said that\u2014it was like, \u201cWow, this is better than I thought!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHere\u2019s what I <em>didn\u2019t<\/em> anticipate: I thought we\u2019d have more time\u2014you know, like we\u2019ve all said\u2014you walk into an empty house; there\u2019s not commotion. In some ways, you miss that, like: \u201cWow; it used to be\u2026\u201d; but there\u2019s another part that\u2019s like: \u201cThis is awesome! I can go out in the kitchen and get something. I can lie down; I can take a nap.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHere\u2019s what I didn\u2019t anticipate: \u201cThis free time I\u2019m going to have, I\u2019m going to celebrate.\u201d No, what I did is\u2014I dialed up more ministry\/started doing more things\u2014didn\u2019t even realize it. We\u2019re eating out more than we\u2019re eating at home, because we\u2019re out doing things. We got <em>busier<\/em> in the absence of the kids being there, not sort of saying, \u201cLet\u2019s cherish some rest together.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>When are we going to rest? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Here\u2019s where I was going\u2014and Ann\u2019s going to be like, \u201cYes,\u201d\u2014I\u2019ll be really honest; she has said to me several times this year, \u201cI feel like we\u2019re business partners.\u201d That was <em>never<\/em> something I wanted; but it\u2019s like: \u201cYes, we\u2019re driving hard in ministry; she\u2019s beside me; that\u2019s a beautiful thing, but we\u2019re business partners.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat made me realize\u2014as a husband; and I\u2019m sure it\u2019s the same for Ann\u2014\u201cI need to pursue her, romantically, as an empty nester now.\u201d That doesn\u2019t go away; but I\u2019ve drifted into: \u201cI\u2019m a dad; she\u2019s a mom.\u201d Now the kids are gone; it\u2019s like: \u201cWait, wait, wait. We\u2019re a husband and wife. We need to, not just date, but kiss\/hold each other.\u201d You know what I\u2019m saying?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>That had drifted away, partly because of me; I\u2019m just driving, and now I\u2019m driving even harder because I can.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think a lot of couples probably experience that in some way, whether it\u2019s ministry or their job or whatever. You just start doing a lot of things together, but you\u2019re <em>not<\/em> in love again.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Dave, can you counsel us right now? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I think he is, Ann.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>Well, these are the ways I\u2019ve failed; so I can share with you out of my weakness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I think there might be\u2014you tell me\u2014one of your other defining moments was when dreams disappoint.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Sometimes these two sort of combine; it\u2019s like, \u201cNow I\u2019m an empty nester; and I\u2019m sort of disappointed, where I thought I\u2019d be or where I thought our marriage would be.\u201d Is that true?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>There\u2019s a vision people carry for what marriage will be like, when the kids are gone or in old age, that evaporates through the rigor and work of raising the kids; and they\u2019re <em>not<\/em> even aware that it\u2019s gone. That\u2019s where the kids end up becoming the glue, so they don\u2019t even realize they\u2019re not living out of a vision for the future; they\u2019re just managing the present.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs a result, the kids leave and, again, these things surface. They realize, \u201cOh my goodness, the dream I had about who we were going to be\/what we were going to be\u2014it\u2019s not only not there\u2014but I don\u2019t see it ever being able to come about!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>How do we re-establish that dream? How do we dream again with our spouse?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>I think we have to evaluate whether the dream was a legitimate dream. Was it a dream that\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014a fantasy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>\u2014a fantasy; because a lot of times it\u2019s not informed by reality\/informed by age.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne experience I had, not long ago\u2014I\u2019m sitting in Starbucks. This guy is talking, and I think he\u2019s talking to a guy that is his pastor. I wasn\u2019t eavesdropping; the guy was talking loud enough for all of Starbucks to hear him. [Laughter] He\u2019s basically telling this guy\/this other guy, who\u2019s counseling him, that he can\u2019t believe that his wife won\u2019t have sex with him every day. He can\u2019t understand how this could be the arrangement, and he <em>feels<\/em> like he should have justifiable reasons to divorce her for not having sex every day.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m sitting there, and I\u2019m thinking\u2014I mean, the guy\u2019s probably 70-something years old\u2014I\u2019m thinking: \u201cYes, isn\u2019t this the way that it is? We have these expectations\/this dream for what it\u2019s supposed to be like in old age; and man, that can drive us to the point, where we\u2019re even talking about separating, because it\u2019s this principle that we have to uphold.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You end your book in an interesting way. I don\u2019t know that I\u2019ve ever read a marriage book that ends with reflections on a short story from a Russian author; but talk about the story and about why you brought this in at the conclusion of the book, <em>I Still Do<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>You know, the final chapter is on\u2014<em>The Death of<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em><em>Ivan Ilyich<\/em>, which is a short story by Leo Tolstoy\u2014the theme of the chapter is how grace is greater than the time and the moments we waste.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIvan Ilyich is a fascinating character that Tolstoy created. I mean, he kind of represents the morally-shallow person. He\u2019s a government worker\u2014which has nothing to do with him being shallow\u2014but this is the way Tolstoy portrays him: government worker, kind of dutiful, somewhat intelligent; but he\u2019s self-obsessed; he is the consummate poser and always positioning himself, not according to inner convictions, but according to the environment\/according to people that are around him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe lives for the praise of other people, and probably most apparent in the character development is he lives this unexamined life. Ilyich is not developed as somebody who is evil; he emerges from the pages as somebody who\u2019s ambivalent. That is directed towards his marriage: he has this wife. He lives this distracted, wasted life, where he\u2019s ambivalent toward this marriage: distracted about his marriage and, overall, just passive. It kind of comes at you as an inconsequential life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne day, Ivan detects a pain in his side. Because he\u2019s self-obsessive and totally almost narcissistic\u2014the pain is never diagnosed; you never even know whether it\u2019s a legitimate pain\u2014but he begins to die because he\u2019s imagining this pain that is so significant that he basically creates the reality that he fears. With the dying comes this terror of the realization that he has wasted his marriage\/that he has wasted his life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, right before his death, there\u2019s a burst of light and a burst of truth. Again, you have to just appreciate Tolstoy\u2019s writing and how he creates this character. He creates this deathbed conversion\u2014it\u2019s just phenomenal writing\u2014so he\u2019s converted; then he dies.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe point that I kind of pull out of that, though, is that here you have this life that, from an earthly standpoint seems like it\u2019s totally been wasted\/a marriage that seems like it\u2019s been totally wasted; and yet there is grace. There\u2019s a power, that\u2019s beautiful, that breaks in that is capable of snatching somebody from the fires of hell, even at death: it\u2019s the thief on the cross; it\u2019s the worker on the eleventh hour, who gets paid the same amount as the ones who started the day.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think that the thinking believer <em>knows<\/em> that we\u2019ve all wasted\u2014I <em>know<\/em> I\u2019ve wasted time: there are things I\u2019ve wasted\/opportunities I\u2019ve wasted in my marriage\u2014if you\u2019re going to honestly assess yourself, it\u2019s not like Ivan is this unusual character; we\u2019re all Ivan in some way. But the good news is that grace is big enough and powerful enough to meet us in our waste and to redeem us nonetheless.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I think all of us, as husbands and wives and moms and dads, look back on our marriage\u2014whether we\u2019ve been married for five years or fifty years\u2014we look back and go: \u201cWe have regrets. There are things we would do differently if we could do it again: \u2018I wish we hadn\u2019t done that,\u2019 \u2018I wish we\u2019d known better here and there.\u2019\u201d This chapter reminds me that God is in the midst of all of that, providentially, and even in our mistakes and our failures\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014and it\u2019s never too late.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That\u2019s right; we can turn it. We can look back on that and say, \u201cYes, we\u2019ve made mistakes,\u201d but don\u2019t let that define you. I\u2019m thinking of the scene in the movie, <em>Schindler\u2019s List<\/em>, where Oscar Schindler is confronted with the idea that he could have done more. As he\u2019s starting to break down and going, \u201cI could have saved more people,\u201d somebody comes alongside him and says, \u201cYou did so much.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe can look back and go, \u201cI wish I had done this,\u201d but God is at work in the midst of all of it for His purposes and for His glory. We can do as the Apostle Paul said, looking at his own life, and say, \u201cForgetting what lies behind, I\u2019m going to press on from this point and live my life with fresh resolve for the purposes of God.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s been <em>so good<\/em> to talk about this and so helpful. I do hope a lot of our listeners will get your book, <em>I Still Do<\/em>, because I think they will find it, as so many here at FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> have found it, to be a refreshing, fresh look at marriage from a different perspective than a lot of books we\u2019ve read. Thank you for writing this, and thanks for being here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave H.: <\/strong>Well, I\u2019m honored to be able to enjoy these conversations. Thanks a lot for the invitation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Dave Harvey\u2019s book is called <em>I Still Do: Growing Closer and Stronger Through Life\u2019s Defining Moments<\/em>. This has certainly been a season of defining moments, I think, for all of us. The book is available to order online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call to order: 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. You can also order by calling 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, what we\u2019ve been talking about this week\u2014about being isolated in marriage; Dave Harvey called it emotional estrangement\u2014David Robbins, the president of FamilyLife, is here with us. You and Meg have had seasons like this in your marriage, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David: <\/strong>Absolutely; I\u2019m thinking of one of our more recent situations, where we were drifting apart\u2014not necessarily because of sin, but because of just being at different places\u2014and having to address it in our lives. It was just a few months ago, where I was waking up at three a.m. and thinking about things with ministry and work, and some decisions that were going to affect a lot of people; and then I would lean over and go, \u201cHey, Meg, you awake?\u201d and she would go, \u201cYes, I\u2019m awake.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cWhat are you thinking about?\u201d She would go into talking about kids, and some of the things they were processing in life, and things that were keeping her up. Then I remember the distinct moment that we finally found space to talk about it. She just said, \u201cYou know, I know we\u2019re both going through a really stressful time; and I don\u2019t understand why it\u2019s never our kids, who are waking you up in the middle of the night.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCertainly, it was a wakeup call\/a comment that I needed to hear. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David: <\/strong>Let alone, you pile on top of that the internal dialogue: \u201cAnd you\u2019re the president of FamilyLife,\u201d [Laughter] and what had to be processed there. But her being honest, made us pause\/made us pause seriously enough to get emotionally in it together. It didn\u2019t lead to any quick fixes and didn\u2019t take away any of the stressful situations we were walking through, but it did lead to deeper levels of understanding, and of knowing and of caring for one another, and being in it together.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs you said, emotional estrangement is not what God desires. If we\u2019re willing to reflect, to pause, to talk, we can go home and do that right now. Whatever\u2019s kind of drifting us apart, even the small things, it leads to an understanding of one another; and God will meet us in that honest place and lead us toward unity and oneness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You know, our hope\/our prayer every day, here on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, is the conversations you hear will help you, in the stressful seasons of life, be more prepared for them\/be more ready to engage with one another. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf that\u2019s been the case for you, as a regular listener to this program, can we ask you to invest in the ongoing work of this ministry so that we can continue to help tens of thousands of couples every day? That\u2019s what you\u2019re investing in: you\u2019re investing in the marriages and the families of men and woman, all around the world, who are seeking to anchor their family in Christ.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can donate to support <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation. As you might imagine, this is a particularly challenging time for our ministry, as it is for a lot of ministries; so if you can be generous in your support today, just know that is <em>so <\/em>appreciated. We\u2019re <em>so grateful<\/em> for your partnership with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope you can join us back tomorrow. We\u2019re going to hear from a couple, who has been through a challenging season in their marriage and family\u2014a couple of very unexpected health challenges. We\u2019ll hear from Chris and Mary Herndon tomorrow. I hope you can tune in for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. 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