{"id":305929,"date":"2020-04-16T07:00:05","date_gmt":"2020-04-16T11:00:05","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/being-real\/"},"modified":"2020-04-16T07:00:05","modified_gmt":"2020-04-16T11:00:05","slug":"being-real","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/being-real\/","title":{"rendered":"Being Real"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Kelly Needham, author and wife of musician Jimmy Needham, talks about the benefit of being real in our friendships. Kelly gives scriptures to remind us to speak the truth in love.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-04-16.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:35","filesize":"25.25M","filesize_raw":"26478683","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2867,2848,2821],"tags":[6872,4389,4388],"podcast_series":[8352],"cwp_profile":[3632],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-305929","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-church-involvement","category-cultural-issues","category-reaching-out","tag-building-friendship-with-others","tag-friendship","tag-relationships","podcast_series-friendish","cwp_profile-kelly-needham","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/305929\/being-real","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/305929\/being-real","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"6iB1wkeMob\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/being-real\/\">Being Real<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/being-real\/embed\/#?secret=6iB1wkeMob\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Being Real&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"6iB1wkeMob\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-04-16.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-04-16.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> A good friend is somebody who tells you the truth\/who speaks the truth in love. Here\u2019s author Kelly Needham. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> I had a friend sit down with me, and she <em>knew<\/em> it was a hard season for me. The thesis of what she shared with me was: \u201cI know you are in a hard season, Kelly; but you are so focused on your <em>own<\/em> problems right now that you don\u2019t even have the ability to see anybody else\u2019s.\u201d I couldn\u2019t see it because my head was just so down in my own, you know, heart and mess. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, April 16<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I\u2019m Bob Lepine. You\u2019ll find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. The Bible talks about the wounds of a friend. Let\u2019s be honest; they are still wounds, but God uses them powerfully in our lives. We\u2019ll talk more about that today with Kelly Needham. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I was driving from Nashville to Little Rock; this was many years ago. As I drive, I like to listen to sermons or to\u2014I\u2019m an audio learner\u2014but I was listening to a series from Paul David Tripp. He had done a series on the need for community in the local church. He used a phrase\u2014and it\u2019s something that we\u2019ve used at our church over and over again\u2014he says, \u201cA healthy church is made up of people who have\u201d\u2014here are his criteria\u2014\u201cgrace-based, Christ-centered, intentionally intrusive, redemptive relationships.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s good. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I kind of took that apart and just started chewing: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGrace-based, which means we\u2019re always going to give our friends grace. We\u2019re always going to say, \u201cOkay, I know you\u2019ve messed up; I\u2019ve messed up, but we\u2019re going to minister to one another out of grace.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re going to be Christ-centered: we\u2019re going to have that same focus. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re going to be intentionally intrusive. That\u2019s the one, where people always go: \u201cI don\u2019t know about intentionally intrusive\u201d; right? \u201cI don\u2019t know that I want you getting into my business unless I tell you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut intentionally intrusive says: \u201cNo, you\u2019ve got free reign. You can ask whatever you want, and I\u2019ll be honest.\u201d That\u2019s risky, but that\u2019s real and then redemptive. We\u2019re not doing this for any purpose other than so that all of us can grow in grace together to be more like Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI bring that up because I thought of it as I was reading through the book, <em>Friend-ish<\/em>, written by Kelly Needham, who is joining us this week on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Kelly, welcome back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Thank you so much. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Kelly is an author and a speaker who lives in the Dallas\/Fort Worth area. Her husband Jimmy is\u2014he is a worship pastor. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Yes, he is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Kelly has written this book I mentioned called <em>Friend-ish<\/em>. Again, that definition just jumped to mind for me because you\u2019re talking about these kinds of relationships and the need for them and the power for them. Church ought to be a place that\u2019s a natural breeding ground for this; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> That\u2019s right; it should be. Sadly, I think most of us\u2014I\u2019ve seen this in churches\u2014that the superficiality of our friendships is, sometimes, not any different in the world than it is in the church. We\u2019re all waiting for someone else to do something about that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> I think, at the end of the day, if you have a heart to see that change, then you go be that change in your community that you want to see. That will both be really hard and scary and will cost you something; but it will actually bring about, probably, the richest flourishing of deep and meaningful friendships that you\u2019ll have otherwise by taking that risk and jumping in there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI know I shared in the last program some about my willingness to do that\u2014to, you know, email people and say, \u201cWill you be my friend?\u201d\u2014and really go that direction and invite those people into my life; but then that intrusive part came back to bite me! It was like: \u201cOh, I forgot; I\u2019m welcoming that too.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> I know, theoretically, I want that; but when it\u2019s actually in front of you, it feels very different. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Do you remember a time when you froze up [with] somebody getting intrusive with you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Oh, I have more stories to count than I could even share right now\u2014[Laughter]\u2014but one in particular\u2014a friend of mine sat down with me. We were just getting together for coffee to just catch up. She left to go to the bathroom. I found out later she was nervous about what she had to share with me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh boy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> She had to go collect herself; but she came and sat back down and was totally different. She said, \u201cHey, I need to talk to you about something.\u201d I was like, \u201cI have <em>no<\/em> idea what\u2019s coming.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cWhere is this going?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Because we were really good friends; but I could tell that she had something to share that was going to be really hard for her to share, and it had to do with me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEssentially, she shared some hurts she had felt from me that were totally unintentional\u2014my conscience hadn\u2019t yet been pricked by it\u2014you know, it was a blind spot in my life. She had shared a few things with me over the past month; and as a verbal processer and a Bible student, I had like sermonized her in response\u2014just processed\u2014\u201cOh, that makes me think of this I\u2019m learning\u2026.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe just needed somebody to listen; but instead, I probably talked to her for like half an hour about what I was learning. It was really hurtful, and I couldn\u2019t see it. I think she knew that, and she had stopped wanting to hang out with me. She valued our friendship enough to say something. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs soon as she shared, I could see it. It gave me eyes to see. It was like: \u201cI totally get that. I couldn\u2019t see it before. Thank you for sharing.\u201d I cried; she cried. We prayed together. She prayed <em>for<\/em> me and was like: \u201cI\u2019m not mad at you. I just value our friendship, and I needed to say that.\u201d I needed somebody to help me see that blind spot. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s where the value of a friend is <em>so critical<\/em>\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014because we all have blind spots. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> We all do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, everybody else does; I don\u2019t. [Laughter] No, I mean <em>everybody<\/em> does. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> We all do; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We have a tendency not to see them because they are <em>blind<\/em> spots. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe did an exercise, years ago, with these guys in my life. We were meeting once a month: have a meal together; spend the whole night at one of our houses, talking and studying\u2014whatever. We decided\u2014I think it was my idea\u2014\u201cLet\u2019s identify each other\u2019s blind spots as a group.\u201d It probably wasn\u2019t my idea, now that I think about it. [Laughter] I mean, it was like, \u201cWhat?!\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYes; so when it\u2019s Dave\u2019s night\u2014and we did this\u2014so I leave the room. Six or seven guys are in a room, talking about me. They\u2019re going to decide what three things\u2014we said, \u201cGive me three gifts\u201d\u2014we called them gifts\u2014\u201cGive me a gift.\u201d I remember, when I went into the kitchen of this house, nobody is there. I\u2019m like: \u201cWell, I hope this is over in like five minutes. That means there aren\u2019t that many, and it\u2019s\u2026\u201d I was out there like 25\/30 minutes. I am like, \u201cOh my goodness!\u201d I go in there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the things I had done in this group is\u2014I remember I brought to them a pass that I was given as the Detroit Lions chaplain. For every game, they give you an all-access pass to the stadium; so I can be on the sideline and be in the locker room. All the security will look at that pass. I gave this to these guys and said, \u201cI\u2019m not giving this pass to more than five or six people in my life; but you have all-access,\u201d which was a beautiful picture. It was like: \u201cI\u2019m not giving this to the congregation. But my wife has this; she can ask me anything; she can probe anywhere she wants. You guys can too.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>That\u2019s sort of the blind-spot thing. I remember walking back in there and sitting down; so here goes \u201call-access.\u201d They go: \u201cOkay, Dave, here are your top three.\u201d I <em>wanted<\/em> them; but when they said them, I\u2014everything in me was like defensive\u2014yet, I\u2019m looking at these guys, going: \u201cI can\u2019t get defensive, because I\u2019ve told them to do this,\u201d and \u201cThey\u2019ve talked about it, and they\u2019re not doing it because they are mad at me. They are doing it because they <em>love<\/em> me, and they want to give me a gift; and I don\u2019t see this.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEverything in me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s not true!\u201d Yet, when you look at one person who says that, you can, maybe, dismiss it; but when you have five or six, you have to go: \u201cThis is true. Oh my goodness!\u201d \u201cOkay, tell me what that looks like; tell me how that comes out.\u201d What a gift God gave <em>us<\/em> in friends that do that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> It is such a gift. It\u2019s a protection\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> \u2014because we can\u2019t\u2014like you said, we can\u2019t see them; but like Proverbs says, \u201cThe wounds of a friend can be trusted.\u201d Our friends that\u2014it is a wound; it <em>hurts<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> It\u2019s painful, and it\u2019s okay to name it that. It\u2019s a wound, but it\u2019s from your friends; and therefore, it is trustworthy. When you have friends that just are flattering you\u2014right?\u2014\u201cthe kisses of an enemy\u201d\u2014watch out for them. We should be aware of people in our life who never have anything to say to us like that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> My insecurity has been that I am not a <em>good<\/em> friend, so I feel like I\u2019m not great at initiating. I\u2019m not great at reaching out. I don\u2019t have a shepherd\u2019s heart that will continually reach out and see how they\u2019re doing, so then I\u2019ll feel like I don\u2019t deserve to be befriended by someone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHave you ever dealt with that?\u2014that you\u2019ve ever pulled away because you\u2019re wondering if you\u2019ve invested enough time into the relationship? For me, it was out of insecurity, feeling like, \u201cI don\u2019t know if I deserve to be befriended.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> I definitely have felt that way. Some of it was, in my early years of college and even being a young, married woman, I did a lot of reaching out and almost burned out. I didn\u2019t have enough energy even for my husband so that was kind of a point of contention. I pulled back the other direction and started to feel insecure that, if I didn\u2019t go above and beyond <em>all the time<\/em>, that they are going to be mad at me\/something is going to be off. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYes, I definitely\u2014my habits before marriage and in those early years made it really hard for me to try and figure out, \u201cWhat is the balance there?\u201d I learned I really have to trust my friends that they are going to let me know. Some of those friendships, I verbalized that\/said, \u201cI struggle with what\u2019s appropriate and how\/what I should be giving.\u201d Some seasons, we have more to give than others; you know? Sometimes, we need our friends to pick up the slack; and sometimes, we have to do that for them. I\u2019ve asked them, \u201cWill you just be faithful to let me know?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You talked about your friend\u2014who you were trying to teach, or help, or counsel\u2014and she just needed empathy; but you had a situation in <em>your<\/em> life when you were going through a season of depression, and you needed something other than just empathy. You needed some people to kind of point out, like we\u2019re talking about here, the blind spots. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Be a little bit intrusive; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Tell us about that season. What was going on? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Was it because of the miscarriages that you were dealing with the depression? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> It was actually a little bit after that. It had a little bit to do with just the exposure that God had done in my life with my pride. He\u2019d exposed some spiritual pride and given me a true, godly grief over that. I mean, I really grieved that in a beautiful way; it was really refreshing. That\u2019s when I started to get opportunities to teach and speak; and I was <em>not<\/em> interested because I thought, \u201cWell, I\u2019m going to fail at that; so I\u2019m writing it off.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy husband really felt strongly that that was not right for me to do\u2014that that was self-protection for me\u2014and he really felt that God was bringing those opportunities and was encouraging me into them. It created a terror of personal moral failure in my own heart\u2014that I felt afraid that I was going to dishonor God with my own spiritual pride\u2014so it was very introspective; you know? I\u2019m in this, probably, two-year funk of obsessing about my motives and just becoming really in my head all the time. I became very depressed by just the reality that I was always going to struggle with this sin to some degree.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI did\u2014I had a friend sit down with me; and she <em>knew<\/em> it was a hard season for me. The thesis of what she shared with me was: \u201cI know you are in a hard season, Kelly; but you are so focused on your <em>own<\/em> problems right now that you don\u2019t even have the ability to see anybody else\u2019s. I know you are struggling, but so am I.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we had had an interaction that\u2014again, it was hurtful to her; and I couldn\u2019t see it because my head was just so down in my own, you know, heart and mess. That was a really, really painful moment. I just\/I don\u2019t know how many other things have felt as uncomfortable as that. I took that, and I sat in my closet for probably two hours and cried and talked to God about it. It was what I needed to get my head out of the fog of my own self-obsession; because what I couldn\u2019t see was, in God convicting me of spiritual pride, I course-corrected way too far into a different form of pride and just was becoming very self-piteous and still self-obsessed, but in a negative way. She really helped me see that, and it was a big risk for her. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ve talked to her about it after the fact; but she knew how I felt\u2014that I wanted to sleep all the time because I felt so, just, defeated in my life\u2014that I really was struggling with some of those presenting symptoms of depression. Yet, here she was willing to say what was on her heart to say, and it was like the lancing of a wound. That\u2019s the best\u2014I feel like it was so <em>painful<\/em>; but after that was a difference\u2014I turned a corner\u2014it was what helped bring me out of that funk. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, I\u2019m imagining a listener, who is thinking, \u201cI\u2019m observing something in a friend\u2019s life\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, Bob, I was meaning to talk to you about this. [Laughter] Now is my shot! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201csomething that\u2019s one of those, \u2018I think I need to say something.\u2019\u201d There are some people, who are like, \u201cI\u2019m ready for that, yes.\u201d They are the speak-the-truth kind of people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> They are the sermon-ators. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes, the prophets; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Right. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m good at that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Then there are others, who are like, \u201cI could <em>never<\/em> say anything like that because that could harm the relationship.\u201d Ephesians tells us: \u201cSpeak the truth in love.\u201d Some people run to truth; some people run to love. We\u2019ve got to bring both of them to the table. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If somebody is feeling that, \u201cI wonder if I need to say something,\u201d what kind of counsel would you give them to pray through to know: \u201cDo I say something? How do I say it? When do I say it?\u201d What\u2019s the process you go through rather than just saying, \u201cI need to say something. I\u2019m calling them right now.\u201d Probably, a timeout to do a little evaluation before you have that conversation; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Definitely. I think there is a category in this conversation we have to have for overlooking offenses\u2014that the Bible does tell us it\u2019s godly to overlook an offense. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tUsually, when I know I need to say something, though, is when I <em>don\u2019t<\/em> want to be around them <em>or<\/em> I\u2019m tempted to be false. That verse in Ephesians says, \u201cPut therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak the truth in love.\u201d So when a friend comes up to me and says, \u201cHey, are we okay?\u201d I\u2019m like [thinking], \u201cWe\u2019re not, because I\u2019m actually secretly offended; and I [falsely] say, \u2018We\u2019re fine!\u2019\u201d\u2014I\u2019ve embraced a level of falsehood in that friendship. Maybe, I\u2019m doing it under the guise of love and overlooking offenses\u2014but when I notice that I\u2019m starting to be <em>fake<\/em> with my friend or I don\u2019t want to be around them\u2014then I know I need to say something. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat conflict moment that\u2019s coming is actually the way we fight for unity; because we\u2019re sinners, we\u2019re all going to offend one another. We have to be willing to go to those moments and address them. So when I know that\u2019s coming, I, then, start praying. Then I give myself, probably\u2014it depends on the nature of the situation\u2014but I give myself probably a week to just pray and talk to God about it; ask the counsel of my husband; sometimes people, who don\u2019t know that friend, who live somewhere else and share confidentially. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd then I ask the Lord to pull the log out of my own eye. The thing that I feel offended about in them: \u201cGod, show me where that is happening in my own life\u201d; because then, I will become like Jesus says in that parable: you pull that log out first so that you are able to pull the speck out. It actually humbles you and tenderizes your own heart that you could come into that conversation with an understanding that you are just as weak and needy as they are. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, I\u2019ll set aside time to meet with that friend and ask for that meeting, which is usually when the awkwardness ensues, when you say: \u201cCan we meet without our kids?\u201d or \u201cCan I talk to you about something?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> They sniff, \u201cSomething\u2019s up here\u201d; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> They know something is going on! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If somebody calls you and says, \u201cHey, could we get together, just the two of us?\u201d you go, \u201cWhat\u2019s coming here?\u201d; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Oh, yes; exactly! It feels horrible, and it\u2019s super uncomfortable; nobody likes it. Maybe, some people do; but I think most people, when I talk to them, they don\u2019t like it. They\u2019d rather do what most of us do, which is slowly back away from the relationship and go build friendship somewhere else in the church or in the community, and just kind of go, \u201cOh, that was weird,\u201d and move on. Then we have fractured communities, I think, because of that. We don\u2019t have the depth of unity that we could have if we\u2019d be willing to go there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou have to be willing to do that: \u201cHey, let\u2019s have a conversation,\u201d \u201cLet\u2019s talk.\u201d Embrace that awkwardness and then remind them: \u201cThis is\u2014I love you. Because I value this friendship, I want to talk about something. I <em>don\u2019t<\/em> want us to fall apart; I want us to have unity and peace between us,\u201d and then to go there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> The courage to do that is big, because I\u2019ve seen it\u2019s so easy to do the opposite, which is to go talk to Bob about Kelly\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014when I need to go talk to Kelly. Now, not that I have anything\u2014you know what I\u2019m saying? In the church, it\u2019s almost like accepted; it\u2019s almost\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014even put under the prayer requests time: \u201cHey, we need to pray for Kelly.\u201d \u201cReally?! Why?\u201d \u201cOh...\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cOh my goodness, I\u2019m just afraid to speak to a friend in love\/truth.\u201d Yet, when you do it, that\u2019s when maturity happens; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think the counter of that is making sure that we speak life into our friends, too; because we can see these great qualities in our friends and the people around us, without ever saying it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember I was out to lunch one day, and all of [us] girlfriends were together. It was probably a table of six; and we were talking about, you know, just kind of topics that were super light of: \u201cHey, where did you get that jacket?\u201d and \u201cWho\u2019s doing your hair?\u201d After a while\u2014and this is what I\u2019m known for\u2014I love to go a little deeper. I\u2019m like, \u201cHey, let\u2019s go a little deeper,\u201d\u2014and I was younger; and my words were actually, \u201cCan we <em>not<\/em> talk about nothingness for a while?\u201d\u2014which was so offensive to my friends\u2014[Laughter] [Whispering]: \u201cWe\u2019re talking about <em>nothingness<\/em>!\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> They were so like, \u201cWhat?!\u201d I wouldn\u2019t have said that the same way now, but I think just to go a little deeper into speaking life into one another too. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI know, for our birthdays, we\u2019ll go around the table\u2014whoever\u2019s birthday it is\u2014and we\u2019ll just speak life of even victories of what we\u2019ve seen our friends going through that year, like, \u201cYou\u2019ve gone through some really hard stuff; but these are some of the character qualities I see God has put in you that is really helping to deal with what you\u2019re going through\u2026\u201d I think that, too, countering the speaking the truth in love is so beneficial; because it\u2019s <em>building<\/em> one another up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Yes; and I think if you do that, it actually builds the foundation and trust for when that moment might need to happen with a friend\u2014that that\u2019s not the only deep conversation you\u2019ve had is a negative one\u2014but you\u2019ve been encouraging one another and spurring one another on. That friend can now trust you that you are <em>for<\/em> them; because you have been <em>for<\/em> them, verbally. I agree; you have to have that in your relationships. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What can churches do to help promote and foster better friendships in the congregation? Programs aren\u2019t going to work. We\u2019ve got to figure out how we model this or how we facilitate this to happen, organically, in our churches. Do you have any thoughts about them? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Well, yes; I think part of what we can do is <em>normalize<\/em> these uncomfortable parts of friendship and remind people: \u201cThis is what it feels like to be friends with fellow sinners in a real way. When we really do life together, it\u2019s going to feel like this.\u201d When we normalize that, it\u2014then when somebody is facing that, they don\u2019t feel like something is broken in the friendship; or \u201cI\u2019m broken\u201d; or \u201cI\u2019ve messed this up\u201d; or \u201cThis is wrong.\u201d We can go\u2014\u201cNo, the Bible\u2014we see this in the Bible\u2014we see Paul confronting Peter. We see Jesus saying, \u2018You go to your brother and confront him when he sins against you.\u2019\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere are categories for that; it\u2019s normal. We can give stories when we have a platform to make that known. Our pastor just recently preached on friendship and was very vulnerable about when some of his friends had been faithful wound-ers in his life. I think, for our whole congregation, that kind of gives like a [sigh of relief]: \u201cOh, okay; you\u2019ve faced that. Okay, I can face that, and expect that from my friendships, and not be scared of it when it happens.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Did your husband lead the congregation in singing, \u201cFriends are friends forever; the Lord is the Lord of them.\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Of course. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes, okay. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I think we should do that right now, Bob. [Laughter] [Softly singing]:\u201cFriends are friends\u2026.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNo; I was going to add\u2014I think it\u2019s <em>so important<\/em> to model it in the church\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014like your pastor did. It\u2019s like I don\u2019t remember growing up in a church and ever hearing our pastor talk about a friend or the vulnerability of being weak and needing a friend in his life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>I remember we had a young high school kid stay at our house for ten days; and right at the close of his time with us, I said to him over dinner, \u201cHey, so you\u2019ve been with the Wilsons for almost two weeks; what did you learn?\u201d It was very interesting what he said\u2014he goes, \u201cYes, it\u2019s a lot different than my house.\u201d I go: \u201cYes? In what way?\u201d\u2014not knowing if that was good or bad\u2014he said: \u201cYour buddies come over. You have friends. They come over, and they show up unannounced. They\u2019ll eat here. You\u2019ll go out and shoot baskets.\u201d He goes: \u201cI\u2019ve never seen that with my dad. He doesn\u2019t have any friends.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI thought, \u201cWow; that\u2019s a beautiful thing.\u201d I didn\u2019t even realize it was <em>that<\/em> central to my life\u2014that these guys are really soul mates. I will show up at their house; they will show up at my house, and that that was <em>uncommon<\/em> when it should be common\u2014that\u2019s what the church should be\u2014you know? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, maybe, if a few more people read <em>Friend-ish<\/em>, that could help; right? I mean, imagine if our listeners got together with other people in their neighborhood, in their church, where the kids go to school\u2014get together with the moms or the dads there\u2014and go through Kelly\u2019s book together. There could be people you know who are lonely, who would be <em>desperate<\/em> for that kind of interaction, and this is a <em>great<\/em> book to help you <em>think<\/em> through what the Bible has to say about friendships. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGo to FamilyLifeToday.com to order a copy of the book, <em>Friend-ish<\/em>, by Kelly Needham. You can order it from us online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d Again, the book is called <em>Friend-ish<\/em> by Kelly Needham. Order online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or order by calling 1-800-FL-TODAY. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSpeaking of books, there\u2019s another book we\u2019d like to give to you. Our friends at Desiring God Ministries are helping make this available. John Piper has written a brand new book called <em>Coronavirus and Christ<\/em>. We talked with him about this earlier this week and it was a great conversation. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, if you didn\u2019t get a chance to hear our conversation with John Piper, it\u2019s available online at FamilyLife Today.com. His new book is available in e-book format or as an audio book for a free download. You can go to our website FamilyLife Today.com and download either the e-book or the audio book for free. The print addition will be available in about a week and if you\u2019d like to pre-order that there is a link on our website. Again the title of the book is <em>Coronavirus and Christ<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI would say this is an important book because we need to be thinking rightly about God and the Gospel, the Good News, in the midst of our current situation. We have friends and neighbors who have questions. This book will help equip all of us to be able to address those questions. It may answer questions you have about how a good God could remain good when there are thousands of people dying all around the world every day as a result of this pandemic. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, again get your copy of the audio book or the e-book <em>Coronavirus and Christ<\/em> by John Piper. The download is free for either of those resources. Go to FamilyLife Today.com to request your copy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd thanks to those of you who support the ongoing work of FamilyLife Today. You make it possible for us to make resources like this available to you and to hundreds of thousands of other people all around the world. We are grateful especially in these times for those of you who are able to continue your financial support of this ministry. I hope you\u2019re being generous with your local church and generous with people who are challenged. If you can make a donation today to support this ministry we would be grateful. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope you can join us again tomorrow. We\u2019re going to talk more about friendships\u2014going to talk about those friendships that can be draining\u2014people who are needy. How do we handle those kinds of friendships? Kelly Needham joins us again tomorrow. We hope you can join us as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:27:35"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["25.25M"],"filesize_raw":["26478683"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-305929.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-305929.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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Needham, author and wife of musician Jimmy Needham, talks about the benefit of being real in our friendships. Kelly gives scriptures to remind us to speak the truth in love.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-04-16.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> A good friend is somebody who tells you the truth\/who speaks the truth in love. Here\u2019s author Kelly Needham. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> I had a friend sit down with me, and she <em>knew<\/em> it was a hard season for me. The thesis of what she shared with me was: \u201cI know you are in a hard season, Kelly; but you are so focused on your <em>own<\/em> problems right now that you don\u2019t even have the ability to see anybody else\u2019s.\u201d I couldn\u2019t see it because my head was just so down in my own, you know, heart and mess. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, April 16<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I\u2019m Bob Lepine. You\u2019ll find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. The Bible talks about the wounds of a friend. Let\u2019s be honest; they are still wounds, but God uses them powerfully in our lives. We\u2019ll talk more about that today with Kelly Needham. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I was driving from Nashville to Little Rock; this was many years ago. As I drive, I like to listen to sermons or to\u2014I\u2019m an audio learner\u2014but I was listening to a series from Paul David Tripp. He had done a series on the need for community in the local church. He used a phrase\u2014and it\u2019s something that we\u2019ve used at our church over and over again\u2014he says, \u201cA healthy church is made up of people who have\u201d\u2014here are his criteria\u2014\u201cgrace-based, Christ-centered, intentionally intrusive, redemptive relationships.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s good. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I kind of took that apart and just started chewing: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGrace-based, which means we\u2019re always going to give our friends grace. We\u2019re always going to say, \u201cOkay, I know you\u2019ve messed up; I\u2019ve messed up, but we\u2019re going to minister to one another out of grace.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re going to be Christ-centered: we\u2019re going to have that same focus. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re going to be intentionally intrusive. That\u2019s the one, where people always go: \u201cI don\u2019t know about intentionally intrusive\u201d; right? \u201cI don\u2019t know that I want you getting into my business unless I tell you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut intentionally intrusive says: \u201cNo, you\u2019ve got free reign. You can ask whatever you want, and I\u2019ll be honest.\u201d That\u2019s risky, but that\u2019s real and then redemptive. We\u2019re not doing this for any purpose other than so that all of us can grow in grace together to be more like Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI bring that up because I thought of it as I was reading through the book, <em>Friend-ish<\/em>, written by Kelly Needham, who is joining us this week on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Kelly, welcome back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Thank you so much. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Kelly is an author and a speaker who lives in the Dallas\/Fort Worth area. Her husband Jimmy is\u2014he is a worship pastor. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Yes, he is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Kelly has written this book I mentioned called <em>Friend-ish<\/em>. Again, that definition just jumped to mind for me because you\u2019re talking about these kinds of relationships and the need for them and the power for them. Church ought to be a place that\u2019s a natural breeding ground for this; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> That\u2019s right; it should be. Sadly, I think most of us\u2014I\u2019ve seen this in churches\u2014that the superficiality of our friendships is, sometimes, not any different in the world than it is in the church. We\u2019re all waiting for someone else to do something about that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> I think, at the end of the day, if you have a heart to see that change, then you go be that change in your community that you want to see. That will both be really hard and scary and will cost you something; but it will actually bring about, probably, the richest flourishing of deep and meaningful friendships that you\u2019ll have otherwise by taking that risk and jumping in there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI know I shared in the last program some about my willingness to do that\u2014to, you know, email people and say, \u201cWill you be my friend?\u201d\u2014and really go that direction and invite those people into my life; but then that intrusive part came back to bite me! It was like: \u201cOh, I forgot; I\u2019m welcoming that too.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> I know, theoretically, I want that; but when it\u2019s actually in front of you, it feels very different. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Do you remember a time when you froze up [with] somebody getting intrusive with you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Oh, I have more stories to count than I could even share right now\u2014[Laughter]\u2014but one in particular\u2014a friend of mine sat down with me. We were just getting together for coffee to just catch up. She left to go to the bathroom. I found out later she was nervous about what she had to share with me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh boy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> She had to go collect herself; but she came and sat back down and was totally different. She said, \u201cHey, I need to talk to you about something.\u201d I was like, \u201cI have <em>no<\/em> idea what\u2019s coming.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cWhere is this going?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Because we were really good friends; but I could tell that she had something to share that was going to be really hard for her to share, and it had to do with me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEssentially, she shared some hurts she had felt from me that were totally unintentional\u2014my conscience hadn\u2019t yet been pricked by it\u2014you know, it was a blind spot in my life. She had shared a few things with me over the past month; and as a verbal processer and a Bible student, I had like sermonized her in response\u2014just processed\u2014\u201cOh, that makes me think of this I\u2019m learning\u2026.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe just needed somebody to listen; but instead, I probably talked to her for like half an hour about what I was learning. It was really hurtful, and I couldn\u2019t see it. I think she knew that, and she had stopped wanting to hang out with me. She valued our friendship enough to say something. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs soon as she shared, I could see it. It gave me eyes to see. It was like: \u201cI totally get that. I couldn\u2019t see it before. Thank you for sharing.\u201d I cried; she cried. We prayed together. She prayed <em>for<\/em> me and was like: \u201cI\u2019m not mad at you. I just value our friendship, and I needed to say that.\u201d I needed somebody to help me see that blind spot. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s where the value of a friend is <em>so critical<\/em>\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014because we all have blind spots. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> We all do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, everybody else does; I don\u2019t. [Laughter] No, I mean <em>everybody<\/em> does. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> We all do; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We have a tendency not to see them because they are <em>blind<\/em> spots. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe did an exercise, years ago, with these guys in my life. We were meeting once a month: have a meal together; spend the whole night at one of our houses, talking and studying\u2014whatever. We decided\u2014I think it was my idea\u2014\u201cLet\u2019s identify each other\u2019s blind spots as a group.\u201d It probably wasn\u2019t my idea, now that I think about it. [Laughter] I mean, it was like, \u201cWhat?!\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYes; so when it\u2019s Dave\u2019s night\u2014and we did this\u2014so I leave the room. Six or seven guys are in a room, talking about me. They\u2019re going to decide what three things\u2014we said, \u201cGive me three gifts\u201d\u2014we called them gifts\u2014\u201cGive me a gift.\u201d I remember, when I went into the kitchen of this house, nobody is there. I\u2019m like: \u201cWell, I hope this is over in like five minutes. That means there aren\u2019t that many, and it\u2019s\u2026\u201d I was out there like 25\/30 minutes. I am like, \u201cOh my goodness!\u201d I go in there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the things I had done in this group is\u2014I remember I brought to them a pass that I was given as the Detroit Lions chaplain. For every game, they give you an all-access pass to the stadium; so I can be on the sideline and be in the locker room. All the security will look at that pass. I gave this to these guys and said, \u201cI\u2019m not giving this pass to more than five or six people in my life; but you have all-access,\u201d which was a beautiful picture. It was like: \u201cI\u2019m not giving this to the congregation. But my wife has this; she can ask me anything; she can probe anywhere she wants. You guys can too.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>That\u2019s sort of the blind-spot thing. I remember walking back in there and sitting down; so here goes \u201call-access.\u201d They go: \u201cOkay, Dave, here are your top three.\u201d I <em>wanted<\/em> them; but when they said them, I\u2014everything in me was like defensive\u2014yet, I\u2019m looking at these guys, going: \u201cI can\u2019t get defensive, because I\u2019ve told them to do this,\u201d and \u201cThey\u2019ve talked about it, and they\u2019re not doing it because they are mad at me. They are doing it because they <em>love<\/em> me, and they want to give me a gift; and I don\u2019t see this.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEverything in me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s not true!\u201d Yet, when you look at one person who says that, you can, maybe, dismiss it; but when you have five or six, you have to go: \u201cThis is true. Oh my goodness!\u201d \u201cOkay, tell me what that looks like; tell me how that comes out.\u201d What a gift God gave <em>us<\/em> in friends that do that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> It is such a gift. It\u2019s a protection\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> \u2014because we can\u2019t\u2014like you said, we can\u2019t see them; but like Proverbs says, \u201cThe wounds of a friend can be trusted.\u201d Our friends that\u2014it is a wound; it <em>hurts<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> It\u2019s painful, and it\u2019s okay to name it that. It\u2019s a wound, but it\u2019s from your friends; and therefore, it is trustworthy. When you have friends that just are flattering you\u2014right?\u2014\u201cthe kisses of an enemy\u201d\u2014watch out for them. We should be aware of people in our life who never have anything to say to us like that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> My insecurity has been that I am not a <em>good<\/em> friend, so I feel like I\u2019m not great at initiating. I\u2019m not great at reaching out. I don\u2019t have a shepherd\u2019s heart that will continually reach out and see how they\u2019re doing, so then I\u2019ll feel like I don\u2019t deserve to be befriended by someone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHave you ever dealt with that?\u2014that you\u2019ve ever pulled away because you\u2019re wondering if you\u2019ve invested enough time into the relationship? For me, it was out of insecurity, feeling like, \u201cI don\u2019t know if I deserve to be befriended.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> I definitely have felt that way. Some of it was, in my early years of college and even being a young, married woman, I did a lot of reaching out and almost burned out. I didn\u2019t have enough energy even for my husband so that was kind of a point of contention. I pulled back the other direction and started to feel insecure that, if I didn\u2019t go above and beyond <em>all the time<\/em>, that they are going to be mad at me\/something is going to be off. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYes, I definitely\u2014my habits before marriage and in those early years made it really hard for me to try and figure out, \u201cWhat is the balance there?\u201d I learned I really have to trust my friends that they are going to let me know. Some of those friendships, I verbalized that\/said, \u201cI struggle with what\u2019s appropriate and how\/what I should be giving.\u201d Some seasons, we have more to give than others; you know? Sometimes, we need our friends to pick up the slack; and sometimes, we have to do that for them. I\u2019ve asked them, \u201cWill you just be faithful to let me know?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You talked about your friend\u2014who you were trying to teach, or help, or counsel\u2014and she just needed empathy; but you had a situation in <em>your<\/em> life when you were going through a season of depression, and you needed something other than just empathy. You needed some people to kind of point out, like we\u2019re talking about here, the blind spots. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Be a little bit intrusive; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Tell us about that season. What was going on? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Was it because of the miscarriages that you were dealing with the depression? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> It was actually a little bit after that. It had a little bit to do with just the exposure that God had done in my life with my pride. He\u2019d exposed some spiritual pride and given me a true, godly grief over that. I mean, I really grieved that in a beautiful way; it was really refreshing. That\u2019s when I started to get opportunities to teach and speak; and I was <em>not<\/em> interested because I thought, \u201cWell, I\u2019m going to fail at that; so I\u2019m writing it off.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy husband really felt strongly that that was not right for me to do\u2014that that was self-protection for me\u2014and he really felt that God was bringing those opportunities and was encouraging me into them. It created a terror of personal moral failure in my own heart\u2014that I felt afraid that I was going to dishonor God with my own spiritual pride\u2014so it was very introspective; you know? I\u2019m in this, probably, two-year funk of obsessing about my motives and just becoming really in my head all the time. I became very depressed by just the reality that I was always going to struggle with this sin to some degree.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI did\u2014I had a friend sit down with me; and she <em>knew<\/em> it was a hard season for me. The thesis of what she shared with me was: \u201cI know you are in a hard season, Kelly; but you are so focused on your <em>own<\/em> problems right now that you don\u2019t even have the ability to see anybody else\u2019s. I know you are struggling, but so am I.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we had had an interaction that\u2014again, it was hurtful to her; and I couldn\u2019t see it because my head was just so down in my own, you know, heart and mess. That was a really, really painful moment. I just\/I don\u2019t know how many other things have felt as uncomfortable as that. I took that, and I sat in my closet for probably two hours and cried and talked to God about it. It was what I needed to get my head out of the fog of my own self-obsession; because what I couldn\u2019t see was, in God convicting me of spiritual pride, I course-corrected way too far into a different form of pride and just was becoming very self-piteous and still self-obsessed, but in a negative way. She really helped me see that, and it was a big risk for her. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ve talked to her about it after the fact; but she knew how I felt\u2014that I wanted to sleep all the time because I felt so, just, defeated in my life\u2014that I really was struggling with some of those presenting symptoms of depression. Yet, here she was willing to say what was on her heart to say, and it was like the lancing of a wound. That\u2019s the best\u2014I feel like it was so <em>painful<\/em>; but after that was a difference\u2014I turned a corner\u2014it was what helped bring me out of that funk. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, I\u2019m imagining a listener, who is thinking, \u201cI\u2019m observing something in a friend\u2019s life\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, Bob, I was meaning to talk to you about this. [Laughter] Now is my shot! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201csomething that\u2019s one of those, \u2018I think I need to say something.\u2019\u201d There are some people, who are like, \u201cI\u2019m ready for that, yes.\u201d They are the speak-the-truth kind of people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> They are the sermon-ators. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes, the prophets; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Right. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m good at that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Then there are others, who are like, \u201cI could <em>never<\/em> say anything like that because that could harm the relationship.\u201d Ephesians tells us: \u201cSpeak the truth in love.\u201d Some people run to truth; some people run to love. We\u2019ve got to bring both of them to the table. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If somebody is feeling that, \u201cI wonder if I need to say something,\u201d what kind of counsel would you give them to pray through to know: \u201cDo I say something? How do I say it? When do I say it?\u201d What\u2019s the process you go through rather than just saying, \u201cI need to say something. I\u2019m calling them right now.\u201d Probably, a timeout to do a little evaluation before you have that conversation; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Definitely. I think there is a category in this conversation we have to have for overlooking offenses\u2014that the Bible does tell us it\u2019s godly to overlook an offense. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tUsually, when I know I need to say something, though, is when I <em>don\u2019t<\/em> want to be around them <em>or<\/em> I\u2019m tempted to be false. That verse in Ephesians says, \u201cPut therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak the truth in love.\u201d So when a friend comes up to me and says, \u201cHey, are we okay?\u201d I\u2019m like [thinking], \u201cWe\u2019re not, because I\u2019m actually secretly offended; and I [falsely] say, \u2018We\u2019re fine!\u2019\u201d\u2014I\u2019ve embraced a level of falsehood in that friendship. Maybe, I\u2019m doing it under the guise of love and overlooking offenses\u2014but when I notice that I\u2019m starting to be <em>fake<\/em> with my friend or I don\u2019t want to be around them\u2014then I know I need to say something. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat conflict moment that\u2019s coming is actually the way we fight for unity; because we\u2019re sinners, we\u2019re all going to offend one another. We have to be willing to go to those moments and address them. So when I know that\u2019s coming, I, then, start praying. Then I give myself, probably\u2014it depends on the nature of the situation\u2014but I give myself probably a week to just pray and talk to God about it; ask the counsel of my husband; sometimes people, who don\u2019t know that friend, who live somewhere else and share confidentially. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd then I ask the Lord to pull the log out of my own eye. The thing that I feel offended about in them: \u201cGod, show me where that is happening in my own life\u201d; because then, I will become like Jesus says in that parable: you pull that log out first so that you are able to pull the speck out. It actually humbles you and tenderizes your own heart that you could come into that conversation with an understanding that you are just as weak and needy as they are. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, I\u2019ll set aside time to meet with that friend and ask for that meeting, which is usually when the awkwardness ensues, when you say: \u201cCan we meet without our kids?\u201d or \u201cCan I talk to you about something?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> They sniff, \u201cSomething\u2019s up here\u201d; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> They know something is going on! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If somebody calls you and says, \u201cHey, could we get together, just the two of us?\u201d you go, \u201cWhat\u2019s coming here?\u201d; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Oh, yes; exactly! It feels horrible, and it\u2019s super uncomfortable; nobody likes it. Maybe, some people do; but I think most people, when I talk to them, they don\u2019t like it. They\u2019d rather do what most of us do, which is slowly back away from the relationship and go build friendship somewhere else in the church or in the community, and just kind of go, \u201cOh, that was weird,\u201d and move on. Then we have fractured communities, I think, because of that. We don\u2019t have the depth of unity that we could have if we\u2019d be willing to go there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou have to be willing to do that: \u201cHey, let\u2019s have a conversation,\u201d \u201cLet\u2019s talk.\u201d Embrace that awkwardness and then remind them: \u201cThis is\u2014I love you. Because I value this friendship, I want to talk about something. I <em>don\u2019t<\/em> want us to fall apart; I want us to have unity and peace between us,\u201d and then to go there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> The courage to do that is big, because I\u2019ve seen it\u2019s so easy to do the opposite, which is to go talk to Bob about Kelly\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014when I need to go talk to Kelly. Now, not that I have anything\u2014you know what I\u2019m saying? In the church, it\u2019s almost like accepted; it\u2019s almost\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014even put under the prayer requests time: \u201cHey, we need to pray for Kelly.\u201d \u201cReally?! Why?\u201d \u201cOh...\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cOh my goodness, I\u2019m just afraid to speak to a friend in love\/truth.\u201d Yet, when you do it, that\u2019s when maturity happens; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think the counter of that is making sure that we speak life into our friends, too; because we can see these great qualities in our friends and the people around us, without ever saying it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember I was out to lunch one day, and all of [us] girlfriends were together. It was probably a table of six; and we were talking about, you know, just kind of topics that were super light of: \u201cHey, where did you get that jacket?\u201d and \u201cWho\u2019s doing your hair?\u201d After a while\u2014and this is what I\u2019m known for\u2014I love to go a little deeper. I\u2019m like, \u201cHey, let\u2019s go a little deeper,\u201d\u2014and I was younger; and my words were actually, \u201cCan we <em>not<\/em> talk about nothingness for a while?\u201d\u2014which was so offensive to my friends\u2014[Laughter] [Whispering]: \u201cWe\u2019re talking about <em>nothingness<\/em>!\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> They were so like, \u201cWhat?!\u201d I wouldn\u2019t have said that the same way now, but I think just to go a little deeper into speaking life into one another too. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI know, for our birthdays, we\u2019ll go around the table\u2014whoever\u2019s birthday it is\u2014and we\u2019ll just speak life of even victories of what we\u2019ve seen our friends going through that year, like, \u201cYou\u2019ve gone through some really hard stuff; but these are some of the character qualities I see God has put in you that is really helping to deal with what you\u2019re going through\u2026\u201d I think that, too, countering the speaking the truth in love is so beneficial; because it\u2019s <em>building<\/em> one another up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Yes; and I think if you do that, it actually builds the foundation and trust for when that moment might need to happen with a friend\u2014that that\u2019s not the only deep conversation you\u2019ve had is a negative one\u2014but you\u2019ve been encouraging one another and spurring one another on. That friend can now trust you that you are <em>for<\/em> them; because you have been <em>for<\/em> them, verbally. I agree; you have to have that in your relationships. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What can churches do to help promote and foster better friendships in the congregation? Programs aren\u2019t going to work. We\u2019ve got to figure out how we model this or how we facilitate this to happen, organically, in our churches. Do you have any thoughts about them? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Well, yes; I think part of what we can do is <em>normalize<\/em> these uncomfortable parts of friendship and remind people: \u201cThis is what it feels like to be friends with fellow sinners in a real way. When we really do life together, it\u2019s going to feel like this.\u201d When we normalize that, it\u2014then when somebody is facing that, they don\u2019t feel like something is broken in the friendship; or \u201cI\u2019m broken\u201d; or \u201cI\u2019ve messed this up\u201d; or \u201cThis is wrong.\u201d We can go\u2014\u201cNo, the Bible\u2014we see this in the Bible\u2014we see Paul confronting Peter. We see Jesus saying, \u2018You go to your brother and confront him when he sins against you.\u2019\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere are categories for that; it\u2019s normal. We can give stories when we have a platform to make that known. Our pastor just recently preached on friendship and was very vulnerable about when some of his friends had been faithful wound-ers in his life. I think, for our whole congregation, that kind of gives like a [sigh of relief]: \u201cOh, okay; you\u2019ve faced that. Okay, I can face that, and expect that from my friendships, and not be scared of it when it happens.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Did your husband lead the congregation in singing, \u201cFriends are friends forever; the Lord is the Lord of them.\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Of course. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes, okay. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I think we should do that right now, Bob. [Laughter] [Softly singing]:\u201cFriends are friends\u2026.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNo; I was going to add\u2014I think it\u2019s <em>so important<\/em> to model it in the church\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014like your pastor did. It\u2019s like I don\u2019t remember growing up in a church and ever hearing our pastor talk about a friend or the vulnerability of being weak and needing a friend in his life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>I remember we had a young high school kid stay at our house for ten days; and right at the close of his time with us, I said to him over dinner, \u201cHey, so you\u2019ve been with the Wilsons for almost two weeks; what did you learn?\u201d It was very interesting what he said\u2014he goes, \u201cYes, it\u2019s a lot different than my house.\u201d I go: \u201cYes? In what way?\u201d\u2014not knowing if that was good or bad\u2014he said: \u201cYour buddies come over. You have friends. They come over, and they show up unannounced. They\u2019ll eat here. You\u2019ll go out and shoot baskets.\u201d He goes: \u201cI\u2019ve never seen that with my dad. He doesn\u2019t have any friends.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI thought, \u201cWow; that\u2019s a beautiful thing.\u201d I didn\u2019t even realize it was <em>that<\/em> central to my life\u2014that these guys are really soul mates. I will show up at their house; they will show up at my house, and that that was <em>uncommon<\/em> when it should be common\u2014that\u2019s what the church should be\u2014you know? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kelly:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, maybe, if a few more people read <em>Friend-ish<\/em>, that could help; right? I mean, imagine if our listeners got together with other people in their neighborhood, in their church, where the kids go to school\u2014get together with the moms or the dads there\u2014and go through Kelly\u2019s book together. There could be people you know who are lonely, who would be <em>desperate<\/em> for that kind of interaction, and this is a <em>great<\/em> book to help you <em>think<\/em> through what the Bible has to say about friendships. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGo to FamilyLifeToday.com to order a copy of the book, <em>Friend-ish<\/em>, by Kelly Needham. You can order it from us online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d Again, the book is called <em>Friend-ish<\/em> by Kelly Needham. Order online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or order by calling 1-800-FL-TODAY. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSpeaking of books, there\u2019s another book we\u2019d like to give to you. Our friends at Desiring God Ministries are helping make this available. John Piper has written a brand new book called <em>Coronavirus and Christ<\/em>. We talked with him about this earlier this week and it was a great conversation. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, if you didn\u2019t get a chance to hear our conversation with John Piper, it\u2019s available online at FamilyLife Today.com. His new book is available in e-book format or as an audio book for a free download. You can go to our website FamilyLife Today.com and download either the e-book or the audio book for free. The print addition will be available in about a week and if you\u2019d like to pre-order that there is a link on our website. Again the title of the book is <em>Coronavirus and Christ<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI would say this is an important book because we need to be thinking rightly about God and the Gospel, the Good News, in the midst of our current situation. We have friends and neighbors who have questions. This book will help equip all of us to be able to address those questions. It may answer questions you have about how a good God could remain good when there are thousands of people dying all around the world every day as a result of this pandemic. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, again get your copy of the audio book or the e-book <em>Coronavirus and Christ<\/em> by John Piper. The download is free for either of those resources. Go to FamilyLife Today.com to request your copy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd thanks to those of you who support the ongoing work of FamilyLife Today. You make it possible for us to make resources like this available to you and to hundreds of thousands of other people all around the world. We are grateful especially in these times for those of you who are able to continue your financial support of this ministry. I hope you\u2019re being generous with your local church and generous with people who are challenged. If you can make a donation today to support this ministry we would be grateful. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope you can join us again tomorrow. We\u2019re going to talk more about friendships\u2014going to talk about those friendships that can be draining\u2014people who are needy. How do we handle those kinds of friendships? Kelly Needham joins us again tomorrow. We hope you can join us as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. 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