{"id":305912,"date":"2020-04-09T07:00:05","date_gmt":"2020-04-09T11:00:05","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/the-early-church-and-the-family\/"},"modified":"2020-04-09T07:00:05","modified_gmt":"2020-04-09T11:00:05","slug":"the-early-church-and-the-family","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-early-church-and-the-family\/","title":{"rendered":"The Early Church and the Family"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Jerry Sittser gives us a peek into the lives and marriages of the early Christians who were an influence for good in the Roman culture.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-04-09.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:26","filesize":"25.12M","filesize_raw":"26340938","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2848,2822],"tags":[6866],"podcast_series":[8350],"cwp_profile":[9167],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-305912","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cultural-issues","category-growing-in-your-faith","tag-influence-the-culture","podcast_series-resilient-faith","cwp_profile-jerry-sittser","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/305912\/the-early-church-and-the-family","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/305912\/the-early-church-and-the-family","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"PQQ675SBuZ\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-early-church-and-the-family\/\">The Early Church and the Family<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-early-church-and-the-family\/embed\/#?secret=PQQ675SBuZ\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;The Early Church and the Family&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"PQQ675SBuZ\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-04-09.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-04-09.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The early church was concerned that Christians believed the truth\/that they were orthodox in their beliefs. Jerry Sittser says they were equally concerned that Christians lived out their faith. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> During the rights of initiation when they were being scrutinized or examined before baptism, they would not simply ask: \u201cAnn, do you believe in God the Father Almighty?\u201d \u201cDo you believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son?\u201d \u201cDo you believe in the Holy Spirit?\u201d You would say, \u201cYes; yes; yes,\u201d\u2014repeat that. Then they would ask: \u201cAnn, are you visiting widows?\u201d \u201cAre you reaching out to the poor?\u201d \u201cAre you visiting prisoners?\u201d That was as important to them as having correct doctrine. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, April 9<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I\u2019m Bob Lepine. You\u2019ll find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. In our world today, both orthodoxy and orthopraxy are essential if we\u2019re going to be salt and light in our world. Jerry Sittser joins us today to talk about that. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. You know, I remember thinking\u2014maybe, ten\/fifteen years ago, as the internet was beginning to emerge in the culture\u2014I thought\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014the inter-web? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The inter-web\/the miraculous worldwide\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014the worldwide\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014the dial-up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. [Laughter] I began to think, \u201cWe\u2019ve got a way to reach the ends of the earth.\u201d I mean, you go through remote African villages and look at the people, who are on their cell phones, connected to the internet. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn recent days, I\u2019ve wondered: \u201cIs that a blessing, or is that an impediment to the gospel? How can we figure out how to use that?\u201d and \u201cHow can we avoid the traps that are there?\u201d I\u2019m thinking about this in the context of the book we\u2019re talking about this week and our friend, Jerry Sittser, who is joining us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Welcome back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Thank you, Bob. It\u2019s a pleasure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Jerry is an author\/a professor for more than 30 years. He has taught at Whitworth University in Spokane, Washington. His new book is called <em>Resilient Faith: How the Early Christian \u201cThird Way\u201d Changed the World<\/em>. They didn\u2019t have the worldwide web in the early Christian movement; they had the roads through Rome. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> They did. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That was a big deal. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> They had their own version of it, Bob; honestly, because life was so public. They didn\u2019t have the speed of the internet, but word got around really quickly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You take\u2014we were talking about this earlier\u2014you have, for the last two dozen years, taken students in January into a monastic setting for three weeks, away from all electronic media\u2014no internet, no media, none of that\u2014and put them through\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014and they don\u2019t die! [Laughter] That\u2019s <em>fascinating<\/em>\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> No; we\u2019ve not lost one <em>yet<\/em>. [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014without a cell phone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> They slow down, and they study. They spend time in community, and they spend time in worship. They have a whole different rhythm of life\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014which a lot of listeners are going, \u201cHow do I sign up for that class?\u2014because I would like three weeks, where I had a whole different rhythm of life.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat do you find happens <em>there<\/em>? What I\u2019m getting at is\u2014the technology good\/bad dynamic that we are dealing with here\u2014how do we understand that? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Yes; I\u2019ve pondered this question <em>so often<\/em>. The world has always advanced, technologically, one step after another. I mean, there was not the wheel and then the wheel; right? We didn\u2019t have the printing press, and all books were hand copied; and then we had the printing press, and it exploded print media. Then we had the radio, and then we had the TV. It\u2019s inevitable, and it will continue; that\u2019s just the nature of human creativity to want to push boundaries and advance into new frontiers. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe problem is when we forget the old. The old is not irrelevant; the old has to be integrated into the new; or better put, the new has to be integrated into the old. You look at something like Twitter<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> and Facebook<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, and all of these\u2014Instagram\u2014and all of these mediums, which are instant; they are more impersonal. Even if you are dealing with friends, nobody can have 500 friends,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> \u2014or 1,000, or whatever; it\u2019s simply not possible. Those mediums\u2014however good they are\u2014and they can be useful for the kingdom, just like the printing press was or the radio was. Think about early Christian radio broadcasts. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And still is, I\u2019ll say. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> And still is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay; thank you! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Exactly; right\u2014no; it is! [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt [new mediums] can\u2019t replace old mediums because we are fundamentally human persons made in the image of God. We are made for relationship, and we are embodied. Think about the incarnation; think about how radical it is\u2014that when God chose to communicate with us in His <em>final<\/em> work, He came as a human being. That means He was confined to a time; He was confined to a place; He looked a certain way. Jesus did not have blond hair; Jesus did not speak English or Chinese; He spoke Aramaic; He never travelled very far from home. It\u2019s particularity, and particularity is essential for human relationships. We can\u2019t lose that, Bob. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Ultimately, as Christians, that\u2019s how we grow followers of Jesus. We\u2019re never going to be able to mass produce mature Christians. We can use the internet and all the modern technological devices we have, but it can\u2019t be at the expense of the more traditional ways that we\u2019ve produced <em>anything<\/em> of worth\/worthwhile\u2014I mean, the Sistine Chapel, a great musician, a great composer\u2014anything like that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and relationships. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> \u2014and relationships. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Relationships online are not the same as face-to-face relationships. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> How do you grow a marriage? I mean, I\u2019m with marriage experts here: it\u2019s day after day. As I say, you know, I was widowed for 20 years\u2014Bob knows\u2014and I got remarried 9 years ago. I say to my sweet wife, Patricia\u2014I say, \u201cEvery morning I get up, you\u2019re still there!\u201d [Laughter] She says, \u201cJerry, that sounds so negative.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Jerry, I\u2019m just going to say, \u201cThat\u2019s not a good thing to say to your wife.\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Believe me, I know. I smile, and I give her a hug and a kiss; but I say: \u201cIt\u2019s\u2014that\u2019s the daily-ness of marriage to that <em>real<\/em> person I\u2019m married to, who has habits, and a way of using language, and a way of being in the world\u2014that\u2019s the particularity of marriage; that\u2019s the particularity of discipleship.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yet, the social media connection, that so many millions are finding, is a symptom; because they want it\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> They do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014and they long for it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and they are lonely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> But it is really a symptom that they really want skin; right? And their lives\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> They want skin, but they don\u2019t know how to get that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right; right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Yes; we, as Christians, can help them get there; because ultimately, as disciples, we have to be embodied\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Jerry:<\/strong> \u2014and that means having coffee with somebody, and doing a holiday with somebody, inviting neighborhood kids into your backyard to play, and everything else. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, are you on Twitter and Facebook? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> I\u2019m not, and my publishers\u2014[Laughter]\u2014don\u2019t like me for it. I have an Instagram account. I follow ten people, and they are all my children or in-laws. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If you\u2019re talking with your students, do you tell them the way to get culturally engaged is to be online and to capture these arenas for the gospel? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Oh, sure. I mean, I think when I talk about being online, I talk about how you present yourself\u2014that you can\u2019t ever take anything back: an image that you put online, something that you say, something that you engage in. A pastor friend I know, about a year ago, wrote, \u201cI hate the President.\u201d He didn\u2019t realize\u2014I mean, it was a <em>huge<\/em> mistake on his part. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere are some dangers; we have to use it as a medium in which to exhibit Christian virtues. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; our focus here is, as you know, marriage and family. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Were the Christians living in Rome in the first two centuries different in how they approached marriage and family relationships from the way the Romans or the Jews viewed? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Oh, most certainly. First of all, they valued marriage. I mean, as shocking as this sounds\u2014it was shocking back then; maybe, not so much now anymore\u2014they held men to the same standards as women. That was radical\u2014the same moral, ethical, sexual standard\u2014which means that men had to be married to that one woman\u2014no concubines, no prostitutes; nothing. That was radical back then, and it was good for women. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and one wife\u2014not multiple wives. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> One wife. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> It\u2019s interesting to observe that women outnumbered men in the Christian movement. Men outnumbered women in the Roman world, because women died in childbirth; many children died. Roman families didn\u2019t want a lot of girls\u2014it was too expensive\u2014they wanted boys; so they would be more inclined, if they practiced infant exposure, to put girls out\u2014baby girls\u2014not baby boys. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Infant exposure meaning: \u201cLeave the child outside\u201d; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Infanticide; yes\u2014I mean, just leave them out to die. Christians would, sometimes, take them and adopt them, by the way. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere were a number of ways that made Christians stand out. Imagine shopping at a marketplace, as a follower of traditional religion, and coming to a stall, where you\u2019ve got a husband and wife, and they\u2019re <em>kind<\/em> to each other. There is no sign of gods and goddesses; they don\u2019t go to temples, and shrines, and monuments\u2014none of that stuff\u2014and they have three daughters, and they are <em>happy<\/em> to have them. Now, that would have been a radical statement. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOkay; so, they valued marriage\u2014there is no question about that\u2014but they also honored people who chose to remain single. Early on, they developed orders for virgins; so it wasn\u2019t as if deciding not to marry made you second class in the Christian movement. It didn\u2019t make you second class; whereas in the Roman world, it was <em>strongly<\/em> urged that you would marry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey cared for widows once they reached a certain age. There is evidence that, in the year 250, Rome had on its payroll 1,500 women and other needy people\u2014in the church in Rome\/just in the church in Rome. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey gave alternatives for people, who did not follow a route of traditional marriage, and not make them feel like second-class citizens and would include them in the life of the church. What we would call traditional families now became a kind of nucleus for an extended household of other people, who were valued and cared for. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Did discipleship take place in the homes in the early church? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> They did. I mean, we didn\u2019t have any church buildings, as we understand them today, until well into the third century. So, that\u2019s\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> No youth pastors either; right? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> No; actually no. I mean, so for, at least, the 200\/for the first 200 years, they would be either house churches\u2014sometimes, they\u2019d rent halls. I estimate that the average church was somewhere between 50 and 75 people, and they would multiply them; so there would be many, many churches in a community that were kind of organically connected together. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut no notion of: you get in your car, you travel, you go to a big church, and then you go home again. It was much more integrated into the normal life of people. That meant you could walk a block and join a house church for morning prayers every morning at \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tsix am. It wouldn\u2019t be possible for us to do that now, except in our homes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And that\u2019s what I was going to ask: \u201cWhat was the discipleship process that you\u2019re aware of that we can implement today in our own homes? What do you think, and what did you do, as a father, with your own kids?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Well, not enough\u2014obviously, we never knew enough. I did learn from this period, and I think there are things we can learn\/a number of things we can learn. One of the most important things in our home was a really clear bedtime routine that would include a lot of reading\/prayers. I\u2019d sing hymns every night with my kids. I probably had about 50 or 60 hymns memorized that I would sing to them\u2014sounds really nerdy, I know\u2014but I teach church history, so I am a nerd. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd hospitality was an important value in our home. Actually, I wrote a rule of life for our home after I lost my first wife. We had six principles that we followed, and hospitality was one of them. I didn\u2019t want my kids to feel that, with their mom gone, we were sort of that family that was always kind of the victim. We\u2019d invite people into our home and at our table. Sometimes, at Thanksgiving or Christmas, we\u2019d have 20\/22 people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s interesting\u2014all of my kids do the same thing now; they are <em>very<\/em> hospitable. My son, John, who lives in Seattle\u2014once a month, with a good friend, who is an excellent chef\u2014they have a neighborhood feast at their house.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014once a month. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> They cook all the food, once a month; about 40 people show up\u2014just neighborhood. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHospitality was important; service was important; bedtime routines and prayers were important; Bible reading was important; we always went to worship on Sunday\u2014so a number of things like that\u2014I wanted the home to be, you know, a disciple-making unit, without being too self-conscious or too heavy-handed in that process. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Today, it is common, I would guess in the church\u2014for a lot of families\/maybe, most families\u2014to farm that out. It\u2019s like: \u201cThat\u2019s what the church does for our family,\u201d\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014or \u201c\u2026school\u2026\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014everything you just said. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> \u2014or \u201c\u2026a Christian school\u2026\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> But that leads to isolation\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> \u2014you\u2019re <em>always<\/em> with your own kind of people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRemember, at the beginning, in yesterday\u2019s show, I talked about accommodation: \u201cYou want to win Rome\u2019s approval, but you over accommodate; then Rome absorbs.\u201d That\u2019s what our culture is doing to a lot of Christians\u2014it\u2019s absorbing us\u2014<em>or<\/em> \u201cYou isolate to maintain your purity and distinctiveness, but it\u2019s at the expense of impact and relevance.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen we create Christian enclaves\u2014now, it\u2019s going to sound critical\u2014Christian schools, homeschooling\u2014my wife\/my first wife was a homeschooler, so I\u2019m not down on homeschooling\u2014but the impact has got to be, eventually, to train children and their friends to have an <em>impact<\/em> on the larger world for Christ\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> \u2014for whom Christ died, as I\u2019ve mentioned to you before. I\u2019m afraid we forget to do that; we want to just isolate ourselves. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014because we are afraid. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> We\u2019re afraid. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And we see how the culture is catechizing our kids\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and we\u2019re concerned too much exposure to the culture is going to have that kind of an impact in their lives. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> \u2014so we withdraw. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, how do we raise kids who don\u2019t get discipled by the world? How do we have them in the world without them being discipled by the world? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> I\u2019ll tell you this much: our world is <em>mild<\/em> compared to the Greco-Roman world, so these early Christians had a <em>far bigger task<\/em> before them than we do. For one thing, we still have a ton of Christians in our culture; we\u2019ve got technology; Christian schools; Christian publishing houses; megachurches with all kinds of sophisticated programs. We have FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>\u2014your organization\u2014[Laughter]\u2014and the empire you have and the kind of impact you have, which we can be grateful for. We have <em>so many<\/em> resources. What did they have?\u2014they had the gospel. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> They had the example of Jesus; and they figured out how to be patient, small-scale, organic, and <em>very<\/em> determined. I love that! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and they didn\u2019t pull away. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> They didn\u2019t pull away. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> They realized they were being <em>sent<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> They couldn\u2019t; they couldn\u2019t. If they would have pulled away, it would have been: \u201cLet\u2019s all wear red hats, so Rome knows who we are\u201d; then live in their own enclaves and just kind of be avoidant of the larger culture. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, did they go to temples?\u2014obviously not. Did they sacrifice to the gods and to the emperor?\u2014they, obviously, didn\u2019t; in fact, they were martyred because they didn\u2019t sacrifice to the emperor. But listen to this\u2014when Christians were brought before pagan officials for trial, they asked them only one question\u2014<em>only one<\/em>: \u201cAre you a Christian?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cAnn, are you a Christian?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cYes.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> And then they would say again, \u201cThink twice now, because you know what\u2019s going to happen; are you a Christian?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cYes.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> They would ask a third time; and if you say a third time you are a Christian and you refuse to offer a sacrifice to the gods or to the emperor as a god, you\u2019d be executed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, with that kind of pressure, you have to produce what I call functional Christians. I mean, it\u2019s like a functional athlete. I remember when my boys played AU Basketball. By the time they were about in sixth\/seventh grade, they became what I call functional players. Put them on a court; they always know what to do. They could have gotten better, and they did get better at shooting, dribbling, and so on; but they had skills that made them functional on the court. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOur job is to produce functional Christians so that, no matter <em>where<\/em> they are, they know what it means to follow Jesus. It\u2019s like, if we put a private detective on my tail for a week, and I didn\u2019t know it, no matter what I was doing, I would be recognizably Christian all the time. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Now, you can\u2019t do that by just sitting in church. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And when you have that persecution, you are <em>desperate<\/em> for Jesus; you are <em>desperate<\/em> for knowledge and growth. You\u2019re in the Word; you\u2019re worshipping, because you could die; and so your Savior is your link to life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Right; it tended to reduce the number of what we could call nominal Christians. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> You are kind of in or out. Now, there was always a little band of nominal Christians. I mean, that\u2019s always been the case in the history of Christianity; but generally speaking, it was a little bit more extreme. It was a bell-shaped curve\u2014it was two humps: Christian\/not Christian\u2014with a small number of nominal in between. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Of course, <em>now<\/em>, it\u2019s easy to be nominal. I think that the evangelical movement has created a new kind of nominal Christianity, and it concerns me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What do you mean? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> I mean, I call myself an evangelical Christian. Mainliners kind of led the way in the \u201850s and \u201860s by, in my opinion, accommodating culture in certain ways. I see evangelicals doing it in a different kind of way, more oriented toward a health and wealth gospel\/prosperity thinking\u2014other things like that\u2014accommodating Christianity to cultural values that run contrary to the gospel. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> When you were writing <em>Resilient Faith<\/em>, who were you hoping would read it; and what were you hoping the impact on it would be for their lives? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Well, I wrote it for Christians\u2014thoughtful, reading Christians\u2014it\u2019s too demanding a book for just kind of casual reading\u2014that need an alternative example; and we have it in history. One scholar called it a usable past. We can <em>learn<\/em> from the people who went before us. They didn\u2019t do everything perfectly; we aren\u2019t either. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> But they did it different, and they can <em>teach<\/em> us things. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It\u2019s inspiring! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Somehow, they went from a couple of thousand to 50 million. We could learn from that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s a megachurch. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> \u20145 million; right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes, to 5 million; that\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> \u2014but organized very differently from us. I just think there\u2019s a lot we can learn from them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Thank you for this book. Thank you for being here and for this conversation. This has been rich. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> My pleasure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> You\u2019re good people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019ve got copies of Jerry\u2019s book, <em>Resilient Faith<\/em>, available in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. Go online at FamilyLifeToday.com to get a copy, or call 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, our website: FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Get a copy of Jerry Sittser\u2019s book, <em>Resilient Faith: How the Early Christian \u201cThird Way\u201d Changed the World<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid Robbins, who is the president of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, is here. I\u2019ve been watching you out of the corner of my eye as you\u2019ve kind of been nodding and just paying attention to what we were talking about. This was fascinating; wasn\u2019t it? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> This was just one of those days that\u2014it is so <em>rich<\/em>. There is one particular line that I keep dwelling on: \u201cFamilies should think of themselves as units of discipleship.\u201d You know, church history challenges us to take seriously our call to make our homes a type of life-on-life discipleship school. It involves apprenticing our kids and grandkids with the ways of Jesus; but also, <em>inviting<\/em> our kids in the journey of reflecting Jesus to our neighbors and to our community. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNo one doubts that kids need to be taught content about Jesus; and in the West, we have a lot of access to it; but so much fruitful discipleship happens when parents pursue Jesus and His ways and appropriately invite their children to learn, along with them, and be part of the process. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt FamilyLife, we are about fueling families\/discipling families. It\u2019s not just about getting biblical blueprints out; but resourcing you to pass them on to your corner of the world. We are so grateful to be connected to people, like you, because we really do believe that every family who follows Jesus can have an <em>extraordinary<\/em> impact on others for the kingdom. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cEffectively developing godly marriages and families who change the world one home at a time\u201d\u2014that\u2019s what we are all about here. Thanks to those of you who are world changers\u2014those of you who partner with us in the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. I know some of you listening are volunteers; some of you are listening pray for us regularly\u2014thank you for that. Thanks to those of you who are monthly Legacy Partners; your financial support is the backbone of all that we do here at <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, and we are so grateful for your partnership with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you are longtime listener, and you\u2019ve never made a donation to support this ministry, let me tell you what you are investing in every time you donate. You are investing in providing practical biblical help and hope to couples, to individuals, to people who are trying to live out their faith in their relationships: in their marriage, their family, their community, their neighborhood. You\u2019re investing in the kingdom of God when you invest in the work of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019d love to have you join the team. You can donate easily online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY and make your donation over the phone. Thanks, in advance, for whatever you\u2019re able to do to help extend the reach of this ministry as you donate. We\u2019re <em>so grateful<\/em> for your partnership with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you can join us back tomorrow. We\u2019re going to hear from John Piper tomorrow about how the reality of the resurrection should reshape every part of our lives; it should change how we think about life. We\u2019ll hear him explain that tomorrow. I hope you can tune in for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:27:26"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["25.12M"],"filesize_raw":["26340938"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-305912.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-305912.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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Sittser gives us a peek into the lives and marriages of the early Christians who were an influence for good in the Roman culture.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-04-09.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The early church was concerned that Christians believed the truth\/that they were orthodox in their beliefs. Jerry Sittser says they were equally concerned that Christians lived out their faith. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> During the rights of initiation when they were being scrutinized or examined before baptism, they would not simply ask: \u201cAnn, do you believe in God the Father Almighty?\u201d \u201cDo you believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son?\u201d \u201cDo you believe in the Holy Spirit?\u201d You would say, \u201cYes; yes; yes,\u201d\u2014repeat that. Then they would ask: \u201cAnn, are you visiting widows?\u201d \u201cAre you reaching out to the poor?\u201d \u201cAre you visiting prisoners?\u201d That was as important to them as having correct doctrine. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, April 9<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I\u2019m Bob Lepine. You\u2019ll find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. In our world today, both orthodoxy and orthopraxy are essential if we\u2019re going to be salt and light in our world. Jerry Sittser joins us today to talk about that. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. You know, I remember thinking\u2014maybe, ten\/fifteen years ago, as the internet was beginning to emerge in the culture\u2014I thought\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014the inter-web? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The inter-web\/the miraculous worldwide\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014the worldwide\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014the dial-up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. [Laughter] I began to think, \u201cWe\u2019ve got a way to reach the ends of the earth.\u201d I mean, you go through remote African villages and look at the people, who are on their cell phones, connected to the internet. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn recent days, I\u2019ve wondered: \u201cIs that a blessing, or is that an impediment to the gospel? How can we figure out how to use that?\u201d and \u201cHow can we avoid the traps that are there?\u201d I\u2019m thinking about this in the context of the book we\u2019re talking about this week and our friend, Jerry Sittser, who is joining us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Welcome back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Thank you, Bob. It\u2019s a pleasure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Jerry is an author\/a professor for more than 30 years. He has taught at Whitworth University in Spokane, Washington. His new book is called <em>Resilient Faith: How the Early Christian \u201cThird Way\u201d Changed the World<\/em>. They didn\u2019t have the worldwide web in the early Christian movement; they had the roads through Rome. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> They did. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That was a big deal. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> They had their own version of it, Bob; honestly, because life was so public. They didn\u2019t have the speed of the internet, but word got around really quickly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You take\u2014we were talking about this earlier\u2014you have, for the last two dozen years, taken students in January into a monastic setting for three weeks, away from all electronic media\u2014no internet, no media, none of that\u2014and put them through\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014and they don\u2019t die! [Laughter] That\u2019s <em>fascinating<\/em>\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> No; we\u2019ve not lost one <em>yet<\/em>. [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014without a cell phone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> They slow down, and they study. They spend time in community, and they spend time in worship. They have a whole different rhythm of life\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014which a lot of listeners are going, \u201cHow do I sign up for that class?\u2014because I would like three weeks, where I had a whole different rhythm of life.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat do you find happens <em>there<\/em>? What I\u2019m getting at is\u2014the technology good\/bad dynamic that we are dealing with here\u2014how do we understand that? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Yes; I\u2019ve pondered this question <em>so often<\/em>. The world has always advanced, technologically, one step after another. I mean, there was not the wheel and then the wheel; right? We didn\u2019t have the printing press, and all books were hand copied; and then we had the printing press, and it exploded print media. Then we had the radio, and then we had the TV. It\u2019s inevitable, and it will continue; that\u2019s just the nature of human creativity to want to push boundaries and advance into new frontiers. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe problem is when we forget the old. The old is not irrelevant; the old has to be integrated into the new; or better put, the new has to be integrated into the old. You look at something like Twitter<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> and Facebook<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, and all of these\u2014Instagram\u2014and all of these mediums, which are instant; they are more impersonal. Even if you are dealing with friends, nobody can have 500 friends,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> \u2014or 1,000, or whatever; it\u2019s simply not possible. Those mediums\u2014however good they are\u2014and they can be useful for the kingdom, just like the printing press was or the radio was. Think about early Christian radio broadcasts. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And still is, I\u2019ll say. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> And still is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay; thank you! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Exactly; right\u2014no; it is! [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt [new mediums] can\u2019t replace old mediums because we are fundamentally human persons made in the image of God. We are made for relationship, and we are embodied. Think about the incarnation; think about how radical it is\u2014that when God chose to communicate with us in His <em>final<\/em> work, He came as a human being. That means He was confined to a time; He was confined to a place; He looked a certain way. Jesus did not have blond hair; Jesus did not speak English or Chinese; He spoke Aramaic; He never travelled very far from home. It\u2019s particularity, and particularity is essential for human relationships. We can\u2019t lose that, Bob. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Ultimately, as Christians, that\u2019s how we grow followers of Jesus. We\u2019re never going to be able to mass produce mature Christians. We can use the internet and all the modern technological devices we have, but it can\u2019t be at the expense of the more traditional ways that we\u2019ve produced <em>anything<\/em> of worth\/worthwhile\u2014I mean, the Sistine Chapel, a great musician, a great composer\u2014anything like that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and relationships. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> \u2014and relationships. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Relationships online are not the same as face-to-face relationships. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> How do you grow a marriage? I mean, I\u2019m with marriage experts here: it\u2019s day after day. As I say, you know, I was widowed for 20 years\u2014Bob knows\u2014and I got remarried 9 years ago. I say to my sweet wife, Patricia\u2014I say, \u201cEvery morning I get up, you\u2019re still there!\u201d [Laughter] She says, \u201cJerry, that sounds so negative.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Jerry, I\u2019m just going to say, \u201cThat\u2019s not a good thing to say to your wife.\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Believe me, I know. I smile, and I give her a hug and a kiss; but I say: \u201cIt\u2019s\u2014that\u2019s the daily-ness of marriage to that <em>real<\/em> person I\u2019m married to, who has habits, and a way of using language, and a way of being in the world\u2014that\u2019s the particularity of marriage; that\u2019s the particularity of discipleship.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yet, the social media connection, that so many millions are finding, is a symptom; because they want it\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> They do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014and they long for it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and they are lonely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> But it is really a symptom that they really want skin; right? And their lives\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> They want skin, but they don\u2019t know how to get that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right; right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Yes; we, as Christians, can help them get there; because ultimately, as disciples, we have to be embodied\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Jerry:<\/strong> \u2014and that means having coffee with somebody, and doing a holiday with somebody, inviting neighborhood kids into your backyard to play, and everything else. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, are you on Twitter and Facebook? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> I\u2019m not, and my publishers\u2014[Laughter]\u2014don\u2019t like me for it. I have an Instagram account. I follow ten people, and they are all my children or in-laws. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If you\u2019re talking with your students, do you tell them the way to get culturally engaged is to be online and to capture these arenas for the gospel? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Oh, sure. I mean, I think when I talk about being online, I talk about how you present yourself\u2014that you can\u2019t ever take anything back: an image that you put online, something that you say, something that you engage in. A pastor friend I know, about a year ago, wrote, \u201cI hate the President.\u201d He didn\u2019t realize\u2014I mean, it was a <em>huge<\/em> mistake on his part. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere are some dangers; we have to use it as a medium in which to exhibit Christian virtues. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; our focus here is, as you know, marriage and family. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Were the Christians living in Rome in the first two centuries different in how they approached marriage and family relationships from the way the Romans or the Jews viewed? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Oh, most certainly. First of all, they valued marriage. I mean, as shocking as this sounds\u2014it was shocking back then; maybe, not so much now anymore\u2014they held men to the same standards as women. That was radical\u2014the same moral, ethical, sexual standard\u2014which means that men had to be married to that one woman\u2014no concubines, no prostitutes; nothing. That was radical back then, and it was good for women. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and one wife\u2014not multiple wives. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> One wife. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> It\u2019s interesting to observe that women outnumbered men in the Christian movement. Men outnumbered women in the Roman world, because women died in childbirth; many children died. Roman families didn\u2019t want a lot of girls\u2014it was too expensive\u2014they wanted boys; so they would be more inclined, if they practiced infant exposure, to put girls out\u2014baby girls\u2014not baby boys. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Infant exposure meaning: \u201cLeave the child outside\u201d; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Infanticide; yes\u2014I mean, just leave them out to die. Christians would, sometimes, take them and adopt them, by the way. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere were a number of ways that made Christians stand out. Imagine shopping at a marketplace, as a follower of traditional religion, and coming to a stall, where you\u2019ve got a husband and wife, and they\u2019re <em>kind<\/em> to each other. There is no sign of gods and goddesses; they don\u2019t go to temples, and shrines, and monuments\u2014none of that stuff\u2014and they have three daughters, and they are <em>happy<\/em> to have them. Now, that would have been a radical statement. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOkay; so, they valued marriage\u2014there is no question about that\u2014but they also honored people who chose to remain single. Early on, they developed orders for virgins; so it wasn\u2019t as if deciding not to marry made you second class in the Christian movement. It didn\u2019t make you second class; whereas in the Roman world, it was <em>strongly<\/em> urged that you would marry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey cared for widows once they reached a certain age. There is evidence that, in the year 250, Rome had on its payroll 1,500 women and other needy people\u2014in the church in Rome\/just in the church in Rome. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey gave alternatives for people, who did not follow a route of traditional marriage, and not make them feel like second-class citizens and would include them in the life of the church. What we would call traditional families now became a kind of nucleus for an extended household of other people, who were valued and cared for. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Did discipleship take place in the homes in the early church? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> They did. I mean, we didn\u2019t have any church buildings, as we understand them today, until well into the third century. So, that\u2019s\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> No youth pastors either; right? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> No; actually no. I mean, so for, at least, the 200\/for the first 200 years, they would be either house churches\u2014sometimes, they\u2019d rent halls. I estimate that the average church was somewhere between 50 and 75 people, and they would multiply them; so there would be many, many churches in a community that were kind of organically connected together. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut no notion of: you get in your car, you travel, you go to a big church, and then you go home again. It was much more integrated into the normal life of people. That meant you could walk a block and join a house church for morning prayers every morning at \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tsix am. It wouldn\u2019t be possible for us to do that now, except in our homes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And that\u2019s what I was going to ask: \u201cWhat was the discipleship process that you\u2019re aware of that we can implement today in our own homes? What do you think, and what did you do, as a father, with your own kids?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Well, not enough\u2014obviously, we never knew enough. I did learn from this period, and I think there are things we can learn\/a number of things we can learn. One of the most important things in our home was a really clear bedtime routine that would include a lot of reading\/prayers. I\u2019d sing hymns every night with my kids. I probably had about 50 or 60 hymns memorized that I would sing to them\u2014sounds really nerdy, I know\u2014but I teach church history, so I am a nerd. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd hospitality was an important value in our home. Actually, I wrote a rule of life for our home after I lost my first wife. We had six principles that we followed, and hospitality was one of them. I didn\u2019t want my kids to feel that, with their mom gone, we were sort of that family that was always kind of the victim. We\u2019d invite people into our home and at our table. Sometimes, at Thanksgiving or Christmas, we\u2019d have 20\/22 people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s interesting\u2014all of my kids do the same thing now; they are <em>very<\/em> hospitable. My son, John, who lives in Seattle\u2014once a month, with a good friend, who is an excellent chef\u2014they have a neighborhood feast at their house.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014once a month. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> They cook all the food, once a month; about 40 people show up\u2014just neighborhood. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHospitality was important; service was important; bedtime routines and prayers were important; Bible reading was important; we always went to worship on Sunday\u2014so a number of things like that\u2014I wanted the home to be, you know, a disciple-making unit, without being too self-conscious or too heavy-handed in that process. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Today, it is common, I would guess in the church\u2014for a lot of families\/maybe, most families\u2014to farm that out. It\u2019s like: \u201cThat\u2019s what the church does for our family,\u201d\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014or \u201c\u2026school\u2026\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014everything you just said. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> \u2014or \u201c\u2026a Christian school\u2026\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> But that leads to isolation\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> \u2014you\u2019re <em>always<\/em> with your own kind of people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRemember, at the beginning, in yesterday\u2019s show, I talked about accommodation: \u201cYou want to win Rome\u2019s approval, but you over accommodate; then Rome absorbs.\u201d That\u2019s what our culture is doing to a lot of Christians\u2014it\u2019s absorbing us\u2014<em>or<\/em> \u201cYou isolate to maintain your purity and distinctiveness, but it\u2019s at the expense of impact and relevance.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen we create Christian enclaves\u2014now, it\u2019s going to sound critical\u2014Christian schools, homeschooling\u2014my wife\/my first wife was a homeschooler, so I\u2019m not down on homeschooling\u2014but the impact has got to be, eventually, to train children and their friends to have an <em>impact<\/em> on the larger world for Christ\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> \u2014for whom Christ died, as I\u2019ve mentioned to you before. I\u2019m afraid we forget to do that; we want to just isolate ourselves. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014because we are afraid. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> We\u2019re afraid. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And we see how the culture is catechizing our kids\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and we\u2019re concerned too much exposure to the culture is going to have that kind of an impact in their lives. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> \u2014so we withdraw. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, how do we raise kids who don\u2019t get discipled by the world? How do we have them in the world without them being discipled by the world? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> I\u2019ll tell you this much: our world is <em>mild<\/em> compared to the Greco-Roman world, so these early Christians had a <em>far bigger task<\/em> before them than we do. For one thing, we still have a ton of Christians in our culture; we\u2019ve got technology; Christian schools; Christian publishing houses; megachurches with all kinds of sophisticated programs. We have FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>\u2014your organization\u2014[Laughter]\u2014and the empire you have and the kind of impact you have, which we can be grateful for. We have <em>so many<\/em> resources. What did they have?\u2014they had the gospel. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> They had the example of Jesus; and they figured out how to be patient, small-scale, organic, and <em>very<\/em> determined. I love that! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; and they didn\u2019t pull away. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> They didn\u2019t pull away. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> They realized they were being <em>sent<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> They couldn\u2019t; they couldn\u2019t. If they would have pulled away, it would have been: \u201cLet\u2019s all wear red hats, so Rome knows who we are\u201d; then live in their own enclaves and just kind of be avoidant of the larger culture. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, did they go to temples?\u2014obviously not. Did they sacrifice to the gods and to the emperor?\u2014they, obviously, didn\u2019t; in fact, they were martyred because they didn\u2019t sacrifice to the emperor. But listen to this\u2014when Christians were brought before pagan officials for trial, they asked them only one question\u2014<em>only one<\/em>: \u201cAre you a Christian?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cAnn, are you a Christian?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cYes.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> And then they would say again, \u201cThink twice now, because you know what\u2019s going to happen; are you a Christian?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cYes.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> They would ask a third time; and if you say a third time you are a Christian and you refuse to offer a sacrifice to the gods or to the emperor as a god, you\u2019d be executed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, with that kind of pressure, you have to produce what I call functional Christians. I mean, it\u2019s like a functional athlete. I remember when my boys played AU Basketball. By the time they were about in sixth\/seventh grade, they became what I call functional players. Put them on a court; they always know what to do. They could have gotten better, and they did get better at shooting, dribbling, and so on; but they had skills that made them functional on the court. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOur job is to produce functional Christians so that, no matter <em>where<\/em> they are, they know what it means to follow Jesus. It\u2019s like, if we put a private detective on my tail for a week, and I didn\u2019t know it, no matter what I was doing, I would be recognizably Christian all the time. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Now, you can\u2019t do that by just sitting in church. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And when you have that persecution, you are <em>desperate<\/em> for Jesus; you are <em>desperate<\/em> for knowledge and growth. You\u2019re in the Word; you\u2019re worshipping, because you could die; and so your Savior is your link to life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Right; it tended to reduce the number of what we could call nominal Christians. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> You are kind of in or out. Now, there was always a little band of nominal Christians. I mean, that\u2019s always been the case in the history of Christianity; but generally speaking, it was a little bit more extreme. It was a bell-shaped curve\u2014it was two humps: Christian\/not Christian\u2014with a small number of nominal in between. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Of course, <em>now<\/em>, it\u2019s easy to be nominal. I think that the evangelical movement has created a new kind of nominal Christianity, and it concerns me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What do you mean? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> I mean, I call myself an evangelical Christian. Mainliners kind of led the way in the \u201850s and \u201860s by, in my opinion, accommodating culture in certain ways. I see evangelicals doing it in a different kind of way, more oriented toward a health and wealth gospel\/prosperity thinking\u2014other things like that\u2014accommodating Christianity to cultural values that run contrary to the gospel. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> When you were writing <em>Resilient Faith<\/em>, who were you hoping would read it; and what were you hoping the impact on it would be for their lives? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Well, I wrote it for Christians\u2014thoughtful, reading Christians\u2014it\u2019s too demanding a book for just kind of casual reading\u2014that need an alternative example; and we have it in history. One scholar called it a usable past. We can <em>learn<\/em> from the people who went before us. They didn\u2019t do everything perfectly; we aren\u2019t either. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> But they did it different, and they can <em>teach<\/em> us things. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It\u2019s inspiring! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Somehow, they went from a couple of thousand to 50 million. We could learn from that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s a megachurch. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> \u20145 million; right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes, to 5 million; that\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> \u2014but organized very differently from us. I just think there\u2019s a lot we can learn from them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Thank you for this book. Thank you for being here and for this conversation. This has been rich. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> My pleasure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> You\u2019re good people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong> Thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019ve got copies of Jerry\u2019s book, <em>Resilient Faith<\/em>, available in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. Go online at FamilyLifeToday.com to get a copy, or call 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, our website: FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Get a copy of Jerry Sittser\u2019s book, <em>Resilient Faith: How the Early Christian \u201cThird Way\u201d Changed the World<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid Robbins, who is the president of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, is here. I\u2019ve been watching you out of the corner of my eye as you\u2019ve kind of been nodding and just paying attention to what we were talking about. This was fascinating; wasn\u2019t it? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> This was just one of those days that\u2014it is so <em>rich<\/em>. There is one particular line that I keep dwelling on: \u201cFamilies should think of themselves as units of discipleship.\u201d You know, church history challenges us to take seriously our call to make our homes a type of life-on-life discipleship school. It involves apprenticing our kids and grandkids with the ways of Jesus; but also, <em>inviting<\/em> our kids in the journey of reflecting Jesus to our neighbors and to our community. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNo one doubts that kids need to be taught content about Jesus; and in the West, we have a lot of access to it; but so much fruitful discipleship happens when parents pursue Jesus and His ways and appropriately invite their children to learn, along with them, and be part of the process. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt FamilyLife, we are about fueling families\/discipling families. It\u2019s not just about getting biblical blueprints out; but resourcing you to pass them on to your corner of the world. We are so grateful to be connected to people, like you, because we really do believe that every family who follows Jesus can have an <em>extraordinary<\/em> impact on others for the kingdom. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cEffectively developing godly marriages and families who change the world one home at a time\u201d\u2014that\u2019s what we are all about here. Thanks to those of you who are world changers\u2014those of you who partner with us in the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. I know some of you listening are volunteers; some of you are listening pray for us regularly\u2014thank you for that. Thanks to those of you who are monthly Legacy Partners; your financial support is the backbone of all that we do here at <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, and we are so grateful for your partnership with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you are longtime listener, and you\u2019ve never made a donation to support this ministry, let me tell you what you are investing in every time you donate. You are investing in providing practical biblical help and hope to couples, to individuals, to people who are trying to live out their faith in their relationships: in their marriage, their family, their community, their neighborhood. You\u2019re investing in the kingdom of God when you invest in the work of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019d love to have you join the team. You can donate easily online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY and make your donation over the phone. Thanks, in advance, for whatever you\u2019re able to do to help extend the reach of this ministry as you donate. We\u2019re <em>so grateful<\/em> for your partnership with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you can join us back tomorrow. We\u2019re going to hear from John Piper tomorrow about how the reality of the resurrection should reshape every part of our lives; it should change how we think about life. We\u2019ll hear him explain that tomorrow. I hope you can tune in for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. 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