{"id":305789,"date":"2020-02-27T06:00:04","date_gmt":"2020-02-27T11:00:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/marriage-and-the-empty-nest\/"},"modified":"2020-02-27T06:00:04","modified_gmt":"2020-02-27T11:00:04","slug":"marriage-and-the-empty-nest","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/marriage-and-the-empty-nest\/","title":{"rendered":"Marriage and the Empty Nest"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>How&#8217;s your marriage since the kids left home? Jill Savage knows that a couple&#8217;s failure to connect can lead to isolation. Savage shares some valleys she and her husband faced as empty nesters and tells what&#8217;s kept them together.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-02-27.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:30:08","filesize":"27.59M","filesize_raw":"28925781","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2849,2913],"tags":[4103],"podcast_series":[8342],"cwp_profile":[3125],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-305789","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-drifting-apart","category-empty-nest-and-midlife","tag-empty-nest","podcast_series-empty-nest-full-life","cwp_profile-jill-savage","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/305789\/marriage-and-the-empty-nest","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/305789\/marriage-and-the-empty-nest","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"vWED0EAd2w\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/marriage-and-the-empty-nest\/\">Marriage and the Empty Nest<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/marriage-and-the-empty-nest\/embed\/#?secret=vWED0EAd2w\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Marriage and the Empty Nest&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"vWED0EAd2w\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-02-27.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/mp3.familylife.com\/fl2020-02-27.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Jill Savagewas in the season of life where she was transitioning into the empty nest years. Something happened that turned her whole world upside down. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> I had come home from speaking somewhere. He\u2019d fallen asleep with the phone in his hands. I thought, \u201cThat\u2019s really odd.\u201d I picked up the phone and saw the\u2014the conversation on there. As I read through it, I felt like I was going to throw up; because it became very evident that they had seen each other quite recently.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, February 27<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. Jill Savage joins us today to take us through the trauma that occurs when marriage vows are broken, and the recovery and forgiveness that can come later. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I saw research\u2014I think this is still true. Years ago, the research I saw said that in the\u2014in the first seven years of marriage, that\u2019s a danger zone\u2014when marriages that had just begun often spin out. The divorce rate in the first seven years is high.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd then it kind of plateaus for awhile until you get to year 20 or 25. As you start to move into the empty nest years, the divorce rate comes back, in part because a lot of moms and dads, who have been focused on being moms and dads, don\u2019t have a relationship with one another anymore. They wind up looking at each other, going: \u201cWho are you?\u201d and \u201cDo I still even like you?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> We\u2019ve seen that a lot.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I have friends, too, that are struggling\u2014of once the kids are out of the house, you seem to put a magnifying glass on the marriage and you\u2019re thinking, \u201cWait; I really don\u2019t know him,\u201d or \u201c\u2026like him,\u201d or \u201c\u2026her.\u201d And so we are seeing a lot of divorces in that time span.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I actually think\u2014you know, we are sitting here with FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. I think FamilyLife helped us when we went to that first <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae <\/sup>two weeks before we got married, so we\u2019re an engaged couple. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe learned at that weekend: \u201cOf all things, your marriage is <em>so<\/em> critically important.\u201d\u00a0 Now, I\u2019m coming from a divorced, alcoholic family. I\u2019m wanting to change a legacy. I learned, Day One\u2014I\u2019m not saying I did it very well\u2014but I knew, Day One: \u201cThis marriage is more important than the kids I\u2019m going to have, even though they are going to be extremely important.\u201d I\u2019m going to have to work, from Day One to now 40 years later, on this marriage; cause they\u2019re going to leave someday; and hopefully, she\u2019s never leaving and I\u2019m never leaving. That was a challenge to <em>never<\/em> let the kids become our idols. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>And that was a real challenge for me, because sometimes I liked my kids more than I liked my husband. [Laughter] I\u2019m embarrassed to say that; but yes, it\u2019s true. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We\u2019ve got Jill Savage joining us this week, talking about these empty nest years and some of the dangers that come with those years. Jill, welcome back to <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Thank you\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Jill\u2019s written a book called <em>Empty Nest, Full Life<\/em>. She is an author, speaker, she has lead conferences; she has written on motherhood and on marriage for years. She and her husband Mark live in Normal, Illinois. They are the parents of five grown adults\u2014now, out of the house kids\u2014so she\u2019s fully in the empty nest chapter of life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know about some of these challenges that come with these years, and letting go of the kids it\u2014it can, all of a sudden, surface some of the things in the marriage relationship you weren\u2019t ready for.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Oh, absolutely; that\u2019s because the kids have served a bit as a buffer; you know, our eyes have been on <em>them<\/em>. Even, I think\u2014you know, for parents that have worked hard to stay marriage-centered, not child-centered\u2014you work hard to launch them and get them going; and then, all of a sudden, you are looking at each other. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, one of the things I write about in <em>Empty Nest, Full Life<\/em>,is you begin to see some of the gaps that maybe have been present in your marriage; but you didn\u2019t really <em>feel them<\/em>\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill: <\/strong>\u2014because you were looking elsewhere.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; we look at it and say the needs of our kids, during the parenting years, seem like <em>urgent<\/em> needs. The needs of our marriage are <em>important<\/em> needs but the <em>urgent<\/em> takes precedent over the <em>important<\/em> so many times. We wind up pushing the marriage relationship\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014off to the side. We don\u2019t maintain it\u2014we don\u2019t have date nights; we don\u2019t do anything\u2014and we wind up in kind of an isolation that we didn\u2019t anticipate and didn\u2019t even realize was happening because we were busy with other things.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes, yes; absolutely. I think we have absolutely no idea that that is what is happening; but I think we need to be aware of it, and we need to recognize that, \u201cWe\u2019re not the only ones that have dealt with this.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I know, when we\u2014when we FaceTime<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> with our middle son\u2014has four now, kids. When we FaceTime with them, you are\/you\u2019re reminded its <em>chaos<\/em>. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>They are yelling and screaming, and \u201cHold on!\u201d\u2014you know, the phone\u2019s going all over the\u2014its just\u2014[Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I just\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014and you\u2019re thinking, \u201cHow in the world did you even <em>have<\/em> a marriage?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Right. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014because you\u2019re living in that chaos. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I just babysat them last week; and I was thinking: \u201cHow did I ever spend time with Jesus?\u201d [Laughter] \u201cHow did I even talk to Dave?\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Mary Ann and I look at each other and go: \u201cWas it this crazy? I don\u2019t remember it being this crazy.\u201d Maybe it\u2019s because we were crazier back then and we just had a higher tolerance for crazy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJill, you write in your book about some of the challenges that were concurrent with your entry into the empty nest. You\u2019ve been very public\u2014you and Mark both\u2014about a season of strain in <em>your<\/em> marriage. When were you first aware that your marriage was not where it ought to be?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill: <\/strong>Well, you know, Mark and I have always been very intentional about our marriage. We did all the right things: I mean, we went to a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup>; we did our own marriage seminars that we presented locally; we knew each other\u2019s love languages\u2014we spoke them regularly\u2014we went on date nights; [Laughter] we went away, just the two of us; okay? We\u2019re doing all the right things; okay?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> But at the time that my husband was hitting his 50<sup>th<\/sup> birthday, and he also was deciding that it was time for him to retire from ministry\u2014and quite frankly, he was quite beat up from a church plant that we had done for the last ten years; and so he decided it was time to step away\u2014he was pretty exhausted. I knew he was struggling, but I minimized how much he was struggling. I felt him kind of pull away. We were still doing some of the right things on the outside; but on the inside, what we now know is our hearts were being pulled apart, one little quarter inch at a time. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe call them\u2014we wrote about them in a book we wrote, <em>No More Perfect Marriages<\/em>\u2014we call those \u201cthe slow fades.\u201d Our hearts were fading, but we didn\u2019t feel it since it was a quarter inch at a time; and you don\u2019t feel that. A quarter inch builds on another quarter, and it builds on another quarter; and before you know it, you are at inches; then you are at feet; and then you are at miles. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd so by the time that he was two years after he had resigned from ministry, he was emotionally spiraling; and he really began to pull away.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What did that look like, Jill, when you say he\u2019s emotionally spiraling?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill: <\/strong>Mark had always struggled with depression; and we had ups and downs, but this was\u2014he would make comments like: \u201cWe are just too different,\u201d and \u201cLife is just too hard. God should be answering our prayers \u2018this way.\u2019\u201d He was struggling in a lot of different areas of life, but he just\u2014hopeless; he was very hopeless\u2014that\u2019s really what was happening. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, here\u2019s me\u2014the\/the person who is always optimistic. He would say, \u201cIt\u2019s cloudy outside,\u201d and I was quick to tell him why it was sunny; and so I was dismissing his concerns. We now know that as what we call \u201cthe slow fade of minimizing.\u201d I was minimizing his expressed concerns and that was causing him to not feel heard and valued. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt the same time, he had some pretty unrealistic expectations of life, and God, and marriage; and he really kept thinking life should be easier. He\u2019s looking for the easy button; well, it\u2019s <em>not<\/em>\u2014life is hard. We now know that is \u201cthe slow fade of unrealistic expectations\u201d; because when you have unrealistic expectations, the space in between unrealistic expectations and reality is discontentment. His discontentment was <em>growing<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt that point\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And this was in the season when you are starting to launch your first kids\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> We sure were. I\u2019m personally going, \u201cI\u2019m so excited about this new season\u201d; but he\u2019s hopeless, going, \u201cWe are just too different; I am <em>not<\/em> excited about this new season.\u201d\u00a0 We looked good on the outside; but underneath the surface, things were not well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Were you unhappy?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> No!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Huh.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill: <\/strong>I wasn\u2019t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>And did he point anything out about <em>you<\/em> that he was asking to change\u2014for you to change?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> He definitely felt I had a critical spirit\u2014there was that control piece\u2014and I was learning about that; I was changing that; but I\u2014no, I would say I was very content. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt the same time\u2014I also now know a lot more about myself\u2014and I\u2019m an avoider. I didn\u2019t know that then, but I avoid naturally. The home I grew up in was a loving home, but we didn\u2019t do a lot with emotion; so I kept emotion at a very surface level. Therefore, I wasn\u2019t highly vulnerable to my husband, who actually is a natural feeler. I\u2019m more the thinker; he\u2019s more the feeler. He <em>longed<\/em> for more, and I didn\u2019t even know what more looked like.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So Dave and Ann have talked about the fact that, at one point in their marriage, Dave thought it was a 9 or a 10 on a 10-point scale\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u20149.8 Bob, [Laughter] 9.8 [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Ann thought it was a .5. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So we would be exactly the opposite.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You thought your marriage was a 9 or a 10?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes, absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And he was growing discontented with it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes, yes\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>When did the crisis hit, and how did you become aware there was a crisis?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill: <\/strong>Yes, well the crisis hit one summer\/one summer day that I picked up his phone and saw a text from somebody that I wasn\u2019t familiar with. It became evident that he was talking with someone\u2014a female. We were actually on a date night. He had gone to the bathroom and left his phone laying on the table. He came back to the table; and I said, \u201cWhat is this?\u201d I actually recognized the name of the person; I knew it was a past girlfriend. I thought, \u201cThis is really odd,\u201d and so I asked him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe said: \u201cOh, you know, no big deal. We\u2019re just to having\u2014I was helping her\/helping her out in a tough time in her life.\u201d But it was several months later when I found out that it had become a move from an emotional affair to a physical affair.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So at the time you saw the text, he was\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> \u2014it was still emotional.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Did you accept his answer at dinner?\u2014like: \u201cOh, I was helping her out\u201d; and it\u2019s like, \u201cOkay, we can move on.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes and no. I said: \u201cI know his heart. He\u2019s a shepherd at heart, and I know that part of him\u201d; but I also knew that he was struggling in life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve always talked about, you know, needing to put up hedges of protection in marriage. I said: \u201cMark your treading in a difficult place. Probably, you should copy me on those texts; so that if you are interacting with her on Facebook<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> or email, let\u2019s\u2014let\u2019s just make sure that we are both in the loop.\u201d \u201cYa, Ya, Ya; I know\u201d; and so we did for about one week or so; and then that\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014went dark again. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>When did you know it was more than an emotional attachment?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill: <\/strong>That was about four months later. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And how did that come to light?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> On the phone\u2014I had come home from speaking somewhere, and he had fallen asleep with the phone in his hands. I thought, \u201cThat\u2019s really odd,\u201d and I picked up the phone and saw the\u2014the conversation on there. As I read through it, I felt like I was going to throw up; because it became very evident that they had seen each other quite recently. And my world turned upside down that night.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>That has to be the hardest thing any spouse can go through.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>How did you react? What did you feel?\u2014what did you say?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill: <\/strong>I was\u2014I mean, the physical illness when you see something like that\u2014I mean, I heard people say that; but until you experience it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI had a friend, who knew that Mark was not doing well in just life in general. She\u2014a real sense of discernment in her spirit\u2014she had told me for about a month: \u201cJill, I am here for you\/24 hours a day. You need anything; you let me know.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I picked up that phone and saw it, it was 1:30 in the morning. After I feel, \u201cAt least, like I\u2019m not going to get sick to my stomach, I\/I\u2019m\u201d\u2014well, actually, the first thing I did is\u2014I made the call to the person who was sending the texts on my husband\u2019s phone. I just\/I called her to integrity. I said: \u201cI am just calling you to integrity. This is not what you are made for. This is not what God has for you, and I\u2019m just calling you to be a woman of integrity.\u201d That was the hardest phone call I\u2019ve ever made.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That\u2019s a pretty remarkable phone call.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, man!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That\u2019s not how most people are going to respond.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Very\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> They\u2019re going to call with anger and\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> I\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014let her have it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> I was\u2014I mean, I laid a stake and drew my line. I just\u2014I used it as a call to her life. Her life was off center; and I wanted\/I wanted that for her [to be re-centered]. I mean, I wanted it for my family to be restored. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd the next call I called was my friend, and she stayed on the phone with me much of the night. We prayed together. I couldn\u2019t sleep. Mark and I, actually, had a counseling appointment the next day. I chose to actually wait until the counseling appointment to reveal what I had discovered. I felt like that was wiser.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Girl, you are mature; that was very wise.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill: <\/strong>That was<em> hard.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> How did it go with the counselor? I mean, how did your husband respond?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes, that\u2019s a great question. He looked at me and he looked at the counselor, and he said, \u201cThat\u2019s right; that\u2019s what\u2019s going on, and I\u2019m not stopping!\u201d I mean, there was real anger, and pride, and a firmness<em>.<\/em> The counselor actually separated us; said, \u201cI would like to talk with each of you individually.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe talked to me first; and so: \u201cWhat do I do?! I don\u2019t even\u201d\u2014I mean, I was a<em> wreck. <\/em>I mean, I\u2019m just\u2014I can\u2019t even hold myself together at this point; because I\u2019ve been holding myself, so I just let it all go; you know?\u00a0 We just talked about some next steps. He encouraged me\/he said, \u201cIf your husband agrees to get help, I think you could consider him staying; but if he refuses help, I think you need to probably ask him to leave.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Let me just say here\u2014Mark knows we are having this kind of conversation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Oh, yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> He\u2019s aware of it. You guys have shared openly about this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> We have.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I just want our listeners to know this is not\u2014we are not telling tales out of school here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> No.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>From that counseling appointment, it was a process of months, certainly, beyond\u2014was it more than a year for you guys to start to do the work?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Well, it was\u2014at that point, he did agree to get help. He went away to an event for men for sexual purity. Then things seemed to be okay; but actually, between then and when he actually permanently came home\u2014he went back and forth, seven times, between the other relationship and our marriage\u2014and then it was on Easter Sunday, actually of 2012, where I saw the blinders come off; and I saw the <em>surrender<\/em> happen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, that didn\u2019t mean that trust had been rebuilt; and it didn\u2019t mean that there wasn\u2019t healing. We had another 18 months of weekly marriage counselling after that to put the wheels back on the bus and to begin to heal. We did not share our story publically for another two to three years after that. We had an agreement we could share it, privately, with anyone; but at that point, you know, we just needed to heal.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes; and here you are\u2014an author; and a speaker about marriage\/about family; and you\u2019re still doing this, week in and week out, with this baggage that you can\u2019t talk to anyone about except your friends, privately.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Right; because authenticity is a big important part of my life; it\u2019s an important part of my ministry. When Mark left, I circled the wagons with my pastor, my chairman of the board of our ministry, two of my ministry leaders, and my best friend. I said: \u201cI refuse to go on as if life is okay, but I don\u2019t know how to do this. So can we come up with a public statement that will protect my marriage?\u2014because we want him to come home.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe sat around the table; we prayed; and we crafted what now is on my blog\u2014it was called \u201cFrom My Heart.\u201d I explained that Mark had chosen to leave and that that wasn\u2019t my heart; my children were heart-broken. I was honest that he had left; I did not speak of his infidelity at that point. I felt like that was his story to tell; and several years later is when he said, \u201cI feel like God\u2019s asking us to start talking about our story.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>So Jill, there were <em>months<\/em> that you didn\u2019t know if your marriage was going to make it or not. In those months, what was going on? What do you think: \u201cThis really helped me\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> So every year, in our <em>Hearts at Home Conferences<\/em>, we had different keynote speakers. Jennifer Rothschild was one of our keynote speakers. I will never forget a statement she said on the stage of our <em>Hearts at Home Conference<\/em>. I\u2019m backstage; you know, I\u2019m emceeing the conference\u2014I\u2019m in and out\u2014but I hear her talking about her blindness. She says this\u2014she says: \u201cIt is not well with my circumstances, but it is well with my soul.\u201d I remember catching that and thinking, \u201cOh, I love that statement\u201d; but I didn\u2019t need it personally at that point in time. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill: <\/strong>It just kind of got shelved back there, and God brought that back to me. My prayer became: \u201cLord it is not well with my circumstances, but I am determined it will be well with my soul.\u201d\u00a0 That was really\u2014I mean, literally, I\u2019d go to bed at night\u2014I wrote a blogpost during that time; it was called \u201cSleeping Single in a King-Size Bed\u201dbecause nighttime was the hardest. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI would read my Bible, and I would lay it on my husband\u2019s pillow; and then I would turn off the lights. Then, in the morning, it was the first thing I saw; and I would pick it up. I would read\u2014just even a verse\u2014I didn\u2019t have the where-with-all to read more than like a few words, because my heart was <em>broken<\/em>. But I just kept trying my best to say: \u201cOkay, Lord, it\u2019s not well with my circumstances; but I need to keep drawing closer to You. You\u2019re going to have to show me what to do.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019ll just mention to listeners\u2014you talk about this in a book you have written called <em>No More Perfect Marriages<\/em>; you also talk about it in <em>Empty Nest, Full Life, <\/em>because it was a part of your transition into the empty nest years. We have both of these books in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can go online at FamilylifeToday.com to get a copy of either or both of Jill\u2019s books. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>Empty Nest, Full Life: Discovering Gods Best for Your Next<\/em> is the book about the empty nest years; and <em>No More Perfect Marriages<\/em> is where you talk about the challenging journey that you and Mark went through and how you rebuilt a marriage from the ashes it was in. Again, go to FamilyLife.com to order either book; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY, and we can take care of things for you over the phone.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, these kinds of conversations like we\u2019ve had today are often conversations that connect really heart to heart with a lot of people in what they are going through. We\u2019re always a little taken aback by how God uses these conversations at just the right moment in the lives of so many people, and that\u2019s what we are here for. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, we want to provide you with practical biblical help and hope for your marriage and your family. And the folks who make all of this possible for us are our monthly Legacy Partners\u2014<em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>listeners, who have said: \u201cThis is important; it\u2019s important for me, for our family, it\u2019s important in our community. We want to see this continue. We want to be the providers of help and home for people all around the world.\u201d You do that when you become a Legacy Partner. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis week, we\u2019re asking many of you, who are regular longtime <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>listeners: \u201cWould you join the Legacy Partner team?\u201d I will give you three reasons why this is a good time to do it. Here\u2019s reason number one: when you become a new Legacy Partner this week, we are going to send you a copy of Phil Vischer\u2019s, <em>Laugh and <\/em>Learn <em>Bible for Kids: The Gospel in 52 Five-Minute Bible Stories. <\/em>You can use this with your kids or your grandkids; share it with a family at church; use it in Sunday school. It\u2019s a <em>great<\/em> tool. It\u2019s our gift to you when you become a new Legacy Partner today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNumber Two: we\u2019re going to send you a certificate so that you and your spouse, or a couple you know, can be your guests at a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway\/any of our getaways around the country. This certificate covers the registration fee. It\u2019s our gift to you when you become a Legacy Partner.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd here\u2019s the third reason to become a Legacy Partner this week: we have had some friends of the ministry, who have agreed that they will match every Legacy Partner donation, from new Legacy Partners, over the next 12 months, dollar for dollar, up to total of $30,000. We want to take advantage of that matching-gift opportunity. When you become a Legacy Partner this week, every donation you make for the rest of the year is going to be doubled, thanks to that matching gift. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWith all of that, we are hoping that many of you, who are regular listeners, will say: \u201cOkay, we can be part of the team; we know that you need it. F<em>amilyLife Today<\/em> is listener-supported; we want to be a part of the support team.\u201d\u00a0 Go to Familylife.com; become a Legacy Partner online, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to become a Legacy Partner. And thanks, in advance, for joining the team. We are so grateful for those of you who, are not just listeners, but a part of what God is doing through this ministry. Thanks for making it happen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you can join us tomorrow. We\u2019re we are going to hear from Jill Savage, again, tomorrow about another traumatic experience that she and her husband have gone through during their transition years into the empty nest. This one involves their son, Evan. I hope that you can tune in for all of that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:30:08"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["27.59M"],"filesize_raw":["28925781"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-305789.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-305789.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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your marriage since the kids left home? Jill Savage knows that a couple's failure to connect can lead to isolation. Savage shares some valleys she and her husband faced as empty nesters and tells what's kept them together.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2020-02-27.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Jill Savagewas in the season of life where she was transitioning into the empty nest years. Something happened that turned her whole world upside down. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> I had come home from speaking somewhere. He\u2019d fallen asleep with the phone in his hands. I thought, \u201cThat\u2019s really odd.\u201d I picked up the phone and saw the\u2014the conversation on there. As I read through it, I felt like I was going to throw up; because it became very evident that they had seen each other quite recently.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, February 27<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. Jill Savage joins us today to take us through the trauma that occurs when marriage vows are broken, and the recovery and forgiveness that can come later. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I saw research\u2014I think this is still true. Years ago, the research I saw said that in the\u2014in the first seven years of marriage, that\u2019s a danger zone\u2014when marriages that had just begun often spin out. The divorce rate in the first seven years is high.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd then it kind of plateaus for awhile until you get to year 20 or 25. As you start to move into the empty nest years, the divorce rate comes back, in part because a lot of moms and dads, who have been focused on being moms and dads, don\u2019t have a relationship with one another anymore. They wind up looking at each other, going: \u201cWho are you?\u201d and \u201cDo I still even like you?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> We\u2019ve seen that a lot.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I have friends, too, that are struggling\u2014of once the kids are out of the house, you seem to put a magnifying glass on the marriage and you\u2019re thinking, \u201cWait; I really don\u2019t know him,\u201d or \u201c\u2026like him,\u201d or \u201c\u2026her.\u201d And so we are seeing a lot of divorces in that time span.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I actually think\u2014you know, we are sitting here with FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. I think FamilyLife helped us when we went to that first <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae <\/sup>two weeks before we got married, so we\u2019re an engaged couple. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe learned at that weekend: \u201cOf all things, your marriage is <em>so<\/em> critically important.\u201d\u00a0 Now, I\u2019m coming from a divorced, alcoholic family. I\u2019m wanting to change a legacy. I learned, Day One\u2014I\u2019m not saying I did it very well\u2014but I knew, Day One: \u201cThis marriage is more important than the kids I\u2019m going to have, even though they are going to be extremely important.\u201d I\u2019m going to have to work, from Day One to now 40 years later, on this marriage; cause they\u2019re going to leave someday; and hopefully, she\u2019s never leaving and I\u2019m never leaving. That was a challenge to <em>never<\/em> let the kids become our idols. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>And that was a real challenge for me, because sometimes I liked my kids more than I liked my husband. [Laughter] I\u2019m embarrassed to say that; but yes, it\u2019s true. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We\u2019ve got Jill Savage joining us this week, talking about these empty nest years and some of the dangers that come with those years. Jill, welcome back to <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Thank you\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Jill\u2019s written a book called <em>Empty Nest, Full Life<\/em>. She is an author, speaker, she has lead conferences; she has written on motherhood and on marriage for years. She and her husband Mark live in Normal, Illinois. They are the parents of five grown adults\u2014now, out of the house kids\u2014so she\u2019s fully in the empty nest chapter of life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know about some of these challenges that come with these years, and letting go of the kids it\u2014it can, all of a sudden, surface some of the things in the marriage relationship you weren\u2019t ready for.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Oh, absolutely; that\u2019s because the kids have served a bit as a buffer; you know, our eyes have been on <em>them<\/em>. Even, I think\u2014you know, for parents that have worked hard to stay marriage-centered, not child-centered\u2014you work hard to launch them and get them going; and then, all of a sudden, you are looking at each other. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, one of the things I write about in <em>Empty Nest, Full Life<\/em>,is you begin to see some of the gaps that maybe have been present in your marriage; but you didn\u2019t really <em>feel them<\/em>\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill: <\/strong>\u2014because you were looking elsewhere.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; we look at it and say the needs of our kids, during the parenting years, seem like <em>urgent<\/em> needs. The needs of our marriage are <em>important<\/em> needs but the <em>urgent<\/em> takes precedent over the <em>important<\/em> so many times. We wind up pushing the marriage relationship\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014off to the side. We don\u2019t maintain it\u2014we don\u2019t have date nights; we don\u2019t do anything\u2014and we wind up in kind of an isolation that we didn\u2019t anticipate and didn\u2019t even realize was happening because we were busy with other things.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes, yes; absolutely. I think we have absolutely no idea that that is what is happening; but I think we need to be aware of it, and we need to recognize that, \u201cWe\u2019re not the only ones that have dealt with this.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I know, when we\u2014when we FaceTime<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> with our middle son\u2014has four now, kids. When we FaceTime with them, you are\/you\u2019re reminded its <em>chaos<\/em>. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>They are yelling and screaming, and \u201cHold on!\u201d\u2014you know, the phone\u2019s going all over the\u2014its just\u2014[Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I just\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014and you\u2019re thinking, \u201cHow in the world did you even <em>have<\/em> a marriage?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Right. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014because you\u2019re living in that chaos. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I just babysat them last week; and I was thinking: \u201cHow did I ever spend time with Jesus?\u201d [Laughter] \u201cHow did I even talk to Dave?\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Mary Ann and I look at each other and go: \u201cWas it this crazy? I don\u2019t remember it being this crazy.\u201d Maybe it\u2019s because we were crazier back then and we just had a higher tolerance for crazy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJill, you write in your book about some of the challenges that were concurrent with your entry into the empty nest. You\u2019ve been very public\u2014you and Mark both\u2014about a season of strain in <em>your<\/em> marriage. When were you first aware that your marriage was not where it ought to be?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill: <\/strong>Well, you know, Mark and I have always been very intentional about our marriage. We did all the right things: I mean, we went to a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup>; we did our own marriage seminars that we presented locally; we knew each other\u2019s love languages\u2014we spoke them regularly\u2014we went on date nights; [Laughter] we went away, just the two of us; okay? We\u2019re doing all the right things; okay?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> But at the time that my husband was hitting his 50<sup>th<\/sup> birthday, and he also was deciding that it was time for him to retire from ministry\u2014and quite frankly, he was quite beat up from a church plant that we had done for the last ten years; and so he decided it was time to step away\u2014he was pretty exhausted. I knew he was struggling, but I minimized how much he was struggling. I felt him kind of pull away. We were still doing some of the right things on the outside; but on the inside, what we now know is our hearts were being pulled apart, one little quarter inch at a time. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe call them\u2014we wrote about them in a book we wrote, <em>No More Perfect Marriages<\/em>\u2014we call those \u201cthe slow fades.\u201d Our hearts were fading, but we didn\u2019t feel it since it was a quarter inch at a time; and you don\u2019t feel that. A quarter inch builds on another quarter, and it builds on another quarter; and before you know it, you are at inches; then you are at feet; and then you are at miles. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd so by the time that he was two years after he had resigned from ministry, he was emotionally spiraling; and he really began to pull away.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What did that look like, Jill, when you say he\u2019s emotionally spiraling?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill: <\/strong>Mark had always struggled with depression; and we had ups and downs, but this was\u2014he would make comments like: \u201cWe are just too different,\u201d and \u201cLife is just too hard. God should be answering our prayers \u2018this way.\u2019\u201d He was struggling in a lot of different areas of life, but he just\u2014hopeless; he was very hopeless\u2014that\u2019s really what was happening. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, here\u2019s me\u2014the\/the person who is always optimistic. He would say, \u201cIt\u2019s cloudy outside,\u201d and I was quick to tell him why it was sunny; and so I was dismissing his concerns. We now know that as what we call \u201cthe slow fade of minimizing.\u201d I was minimizing his expressed concerns and that was causing him to not feel heard and valued. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt the same time, he had some pretty unrealistic expectations of life, and God, and marriage; and he really kept thinking life should be easier. He\u2019s looking for the easy button; well, it\u2019s <em>not<\/em>\u2014life is hard. We now know that is \u201cthe slow fade of unrealistic expectations\u201d; because when you have unrealistic expectations, the space in between unrealistic expectations and reality is discontentment. His discontentment was <em>growing<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt that point\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And this was in the season when you are starting to launch your first kids\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> We sure were. I\u2019m personally going, \u201cI\u2019m so excited about this new season\u201d; but he\u2019s hopeless, going, \u201cWe are just too different; I am <em>not<\/em> excited about this new season.\u201d\u00a0 We looked good on the outside; but underneath the surface, things were not well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Were you unhappy?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> No!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Huh.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill: <\/strong>I wasn\u2019t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>And did he point anything out about <em>you<\/em> that he was asking to change\u2014for you to change?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> He definitely felt I had a critical spirit\u2014there was that control piece\u2014and I was learning about that; I was changing that; but I\u2014no, I would say I was very content. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt the same time\u2014I also now know a lot more about myself\u2014and I\u2019m an avoider. I didn\u2019t know that then, but I avoid naturally. The home I grew up in was a loving home, but we didn\u2019t do a lot with emotion; so I kept emotion at a very surface level. Therefore, I wasn\u2019t highly vulnerable to my husband, who actually is a natural feeler. I\u2019m more the thinker; he\u2019s more the feeler. He <em>longed<\/em> for more, and I didn\u2019t even know what more looked like.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So Dave and Ann have talked about the fact that, at one point in their marriage, Dave thought it was a 9 or a 10 on a 10-point scale\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u20149.8 Bob, [Laughter] 9.8 [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Ann thought it was a .5. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So we would be exactly the opposite.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You thought your marriage was a 9 or a 10?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes, absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And he was growing discontented with it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes, yes\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>When did the crisis hit, and how did you become aware there was a crisis?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill: <\/strong>Yes, well the crisis hit one summer\/one summer day that I picked up his phone and saw a text from somebody that I wasn\u2019t familiar with. It became evident that he was talking with someone\u2014a female. We were actually on a date night. He had gone to the bathroom and left his phone laying on the table. He came back to the table; and I said, \u201cWhat is this?\u201d I actually recognized the name of the person; I knew it was a past girlfriend. I thought, \u201cThis is really odd,\u201d and so I asked him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe said: \u201cOh, you know, no big deal. We\u2019re just to having\u2014I was helping her\/helping her out in a tough time in her life.\u201d But it was several months later when I found out that it had become a move from an emotional affair to a physical affair.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So at the time you saw the text, he was\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> \u2014it was still emotional.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Did you accept his answer at dinner?\u2014like: \u201cOh, I was helping her out\u201d; and it\u2019s like, \u201cOkay, we can move on.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes and no. I said: \u201cI know his heart. He\u2019s a shepherd at heart, and I know that part of him\u201d; but I also knew that he was struggling in life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve always talked about, you know, needing to put up hedges of protection in marriage. I said: \u201cMark your treading in a difficult place. Probably, you should copy me on those texts; so that if you are interacting with her on Facebook<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> or email, let\u2019s\u2014let\u2019s just make sure that we are both in the loop.\u201d \u201cYa, Ya, Ya; I know\u201d; and so we did for about one week or so; and then that\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014went dark again. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>When did you know it was more than an emotional attachment?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill: <\/strong>That was about four months later. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And how did that come to light?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> On the phone\u2014I had come home from speaking somewhere, and he had fallen asleep with the phone in his hands. I thought, \u201cThat\u2019s really odd,\u201d and I picked up the phone and saw the\u2014the conversation on there. As I read through it, I felt like I was going to throw up; because it became very evident that they had seen each other quite recently. And my world turned upside down that night.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>That has to be the hardest thing any spouse can go through.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>How did you react? What did you feel?\u2014what did you say?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill: <\/strong>I was\u2014I mean, the physical illness when you see something like that\u2014I mean, I heard people say that; but until you experience it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI had a friend, who knew that Mark was not doing well in just life in general. She\u2014a real sense of discernment in her spirit\u2014she had told me for about a month: \u201cJill, I am here for you\/24 hours a day. You need anything; you let me know.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I picked up that phone and saw it, it was 1:30 in the morning. After I feel, \u201cAt least, like I\u2019m not going to get sick to my stomach, I\/I\u2019m\u201d\u2014well, actually, the first thing I did is\u2014I made the call to the person who was sending the texts on my husband\u2019s phone. I just\/I called her to integrity. I said: \u201cI am just calling you to integrity. This is not what you are made for. This is not what God has for you, and I\u2019m just calling you to be a woman of integrity.\u201d That was the hardest phone call I\u2019ve ever made.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That\u2019s a pretty remarkable phone call.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, man!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That\u2019s not how most people are going to respond.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Very\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> They\u2019re going to call with anger and\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> I\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014let her have it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> I was\u2014I mean, I laid a stake and drew my line. I just\u2014I used it as a call to her life. Her life was off center; and I wanted\/I wanted that for her [to be re-centered]. I mean, I wanted it for my family to be restored. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd the next call I called was my friend, and she stayed on the phone with me much of the night. We prayed together. I couldn\u2019t sleep. Mark and I, actually, had a counseling appointment the next day. I chose to actually wait until the counseling appointment to reveal what I had discovered. I felt like that was wiser.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Girl, you are mature; that was very wise.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill: <\/strong>That was<em> hard.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> How did it go with the counselor? I mean, how did your husband respond?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Yes, that\u2019s a great question. He looked at me and he looked at the counselor, and he said, \u201cThat\u2019s right; that\u2019s what\u2019s going on, and I\u2019m not stopping!\u201d I mean, there was real anger, and pride, and a firmness<em>.<\/em> The counselor actually separated us; said, \u201cI would like to talk with each of you individually.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe talked to me first; and so: \u201cWhat do I do?! I don\u2019t even\u201d\u2014I mean, I was a<em> wreck. <\/em>I mean, I\u2019m just\u2014I can\u2019t even hold myself together at this point; because I\u2019ve been holding myself, so I just let it all go; you know?\u00a0 We just talked about some next steps. He encouraged me\/he said, \u201cIf your husband agrees to get help, I think you could consider him staying; but if he refuses help, I think you need to probably ask him to leave.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Let me just say here\u2014Mark knows we are having this kind of conversation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Oh, yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> He\u2019s aware of it. You guys have shared openly about this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> We have.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I just want our listeners to know this is not\u2014we are not telling tales out of school here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> No.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>From that counseling appointment, it was a process of months, certainly, beyond\u2014was it more than a year for you guys to start to do the work?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Well, it was\u2014at that point, he did agree to get help. He went away to an event for men for sexual purity. Then things seemed to be okay; but actually, between then and when he actually permanently came home\u2014he went back and forth, seven times, between the other relationship and our marriage\u2014and then it was on Easter Sunday, actually of 2012, where I saw the blinders come off; and I saw the <em>surrender<\/em> happen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, that didn\u2019t mean that trust had been rebuilt; and it didn\u2019t mean that there wasn\u2019t healing. We had another 18 months of weekly marriage counselling after that to put the wheels back on the bus and to begin to heal. We did not share our story publically for another two to three years after that. We had an agreement we could share it, privately, with anyone; but at that point, you know, we just needed to heal.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes; and here you are\u2014an author; and a speaker about marriage\/about family; and you\u2019re still doing this, week in and week out, with this baggage that you can\u2019t talk to anyone about except your friends, privately.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> Right; because authenticity is a big important part of my life; it\u2019s an important part of my ministry. When Mark left, I circled the wagons with my pastor, my chairman of the board of our ministry, two of my ministry leaders, and my best friend. I said: \u201cI refuse to go on as if life is okay, but I don\u2019t know how to do this. So can we come up with a public statement that will protect my marriage?\u2014because we want him to come home.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe sat around the table; we prayed; and we crafted what now is on my blog\u2014it was called \u201cFrom My Heart.\u201d I explained that Mark had chosen to leave and that that wasn\u2019t my heart; my children were heart-broken. I was honest that he had left; I did not speak of his infidelity at that point. I felt like that was his story to tell; and several years later is when he said, \u201cI feel like God\u2019s asking us to start talking about our story.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>So Jill, there were <em>months<\/em> that you didn\u2019t know if your marriage was going to make it or not. In those months, what was going on? What do you think: \u201cThis really helped me\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill:<\/strong> So every year, in our <em>Hearts at Home Conferences<\/em>, we had different keynote speakers. Jennifer Rothschild was one of our keynote speakers. I will never forget a statement she said on the stage of our <em>Hearts at Home Conference<\/em>. I\u2019m backstage; you know, I\u2019m emceeing the conference\u2014I\u2019m in and out\u2014but I hear her talking about her blindness. She says this\u2014she says: \u201cIt is not well with my circumstances, but it is well with my soul.\u201d I remember catching that and thinking, \u201cOh, I love that statement\u201d; but I didn\u2019t need it personally at that point in time. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jill: <\/strong>It just kind of got shelved back there, and God brought that back to me. My prayer became: \u201cLord it is not well with my circumstances, but I am determined it will be well with my soul.\u201d\u00a0 That was really\u2014I mean, literally, I\u2019d go to bed at night\u2014I wrote a blogpost during that time; it was called \u201cSleeping Single in a King-Size Bed\u201dbecause nighttime was the hardest. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI would read my Bible, and I would lay it on my husband\u2019s pillow; and then I would turn off the lights. Then, in the morning, it was the first thing I saw; and I would pick it up. I would read\u2014just even a verse\u2014I didn\u2019t have the where-with-all to read more than like a few words, because my heart was <em>broken<\/em>. But I just kept trying my best to say: \u201cOkay, Lord, it\u2019s not well with my circumstances; but I need to keep drawing closer to You. You\u2019re going to have to show me what to do.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019ll just mention to listeners\u2014you talk about this in a book you have written called <em>No More Perfect Marriages<\/em>; you also talk about it in <em>Empty Nest, Full Life, <\/em>because it was a part of your transition into the empty nest years. We have both of these books in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can go online at FamilylifeToday.com to get a copy of either or both of Jill\u2019s books. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>Empty Nest, Full Life: Discovering Gods Best for Your Next<\/em> is the book about the empty nest years; and <em>No More Perfect Marriages<\/em> is where you talk about the challenging journey that you and Mark went through and how you rebuilt a marriage from the ashes it was in. Again, go to FamilyLife.com to order either book; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY, and we can take care of things for you over the phone.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, these kinds of conversations like we\u2019ve had today are often conversations that connect really heart to heart with a lot of people in what they are going through. We\u2019re always a little taken aback by how God uses these conversations at just the right moment in the lives of so many people, and that\u2019s what we are here for. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, we want to provide you with practical biblical help and hope for your marriage and your family. And the folks who make all of this possible for us are our monthly Legacy Partners\u2014<em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>listeners, who have said: \u201cThis is important; it\u2019s important for me, for our family, it\u2019s important in our community. We want to see this continue. We want to be the providers of help and home for people all around the world.\u201d You do that when you become a Legacy Partner. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis week, we\u2019re asking many of you, who are regular longtime <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>listeners: \u201cWould you join the Legacy Partner team?\u201d I will give you three reasons why this is a good time to do it. Here\u2019s reason number one: when you become a new Legacy Partner this week, we are going to send you a copy of Phil Vischer\u2019s, <em>Laugh and <\/em>Learn <em>Bible for Kids: The Gospel in 52 Five-Minute Bible Stories. <\/em>You can use this with your kids or your grandkids; share it with a family at church; use it in Sunday school. It\u2019s a <em>great<\/em> tool. It\u2019s our gift to you when you become a new Legacy Partner today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNumber Two: we\u2019re going to send you a certificate so that you and your spouse, or a couple you know, can be your guests at a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway\/any of our getaways around the country. This certificate covers the registration fee. It\u2019s our gift to you when you become a Legacy Partner.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd here\u2019s the third reason to become a Legacy Partner this week: we have had some friends of the ministry, who have agreed that they will match every Legacy Partner donation, from new Legacy Partners, over the next 12 months, dollar for dollar, up to total of $30,000. We want to take advantage of that matching-gift opportunity. When you become a Legacy Partner this week, every donation you make for the rest of the year is going to be doubled, thanks to that matching gift. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWith all of that, we are hoping that many of you, who are regular listeners, will say: \u201cOkay, we can be part of the team; we know that you need it. F<em>amilyLife Today<\/em> is listener-supported; we want to be a part of the support team.\u201d\u00a0 Go to Familylife.com; become a Legacy Partner online, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to become a Legacy Partner. And thanks, in advance, for joining the team. We are so grateful for those of you who, are not just listeners, but a part of what God is doing through this ministry. Thanks for making it happen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you can join us tomorrow. We\u2019re we are going to hear from Jill Savage, again, tomorrow about another traumatic experience that she and her husband have gone through during their transition years into the empty nest. This one involves their son, Evan. I hope that you can tune in for all of that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2020 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/305789","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=305789"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=305789"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=305789"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=305789"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=305789"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=305789"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=305789"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}