{"id":305456,"date":"2019-10-23T06:00:05","date_gmt":"2019-10-23T10:00:05","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/healing-wounds-of-sexual-betrayal\/"},"modified":"2019-10-23T06:00:05","modified_gmt":"2019-10-23T10:00:05","slug":"healing-wounds-of-sexual-betrayal","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/healing-wounds-of-sexual-betrayal\/","title":{"rendered":"Healing Wounds of Sexual Betrayal"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>guest: Sheri Keffer | Series: Intimate Deception | When Sheri Keffer&#8217;s fianc\u00e9 confessed that he had called a 900 number, she wasn&#8217;t even sure what that meant. She shrugged it off, assuming he wouldn&#8217;t do it again since he was a pastor. But once they married, Keffer tells how her Prince Charming&#8217;s secret became more difficult to hide. Keffer encourages women to keep their eyes open for red flags and to ask the hard questions about porn use before marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Show Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tThe Association of Partners of Sex Addicts Trauma Specialists (APSATS) for Partner Specialists that address the traumatic stress found in partners affected by sex addiction.\u00a0 https:\/\/www.apsats.org\/<br \/>\n \tThere are many Sexaholics Anonymous and Sex Addicts Anonymous groups available online.\u00a0 FamilyLife does not endorse or recommend specific providers or organizations.<br \/>\n \tThe Holiday Survival Guide has plenty of wisdom, insight, and guidance on how to manage holiday stressors.\u00a0 https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/holiday-survival-guide\/<br \/>\n \tHas the FamilyLife Today\u00ae podcast and resources helped you?\u00a0 Consider becoming a Legacy Partner, a monthly supporter of FamilyLife.\u00a0https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/legacy<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Sheri Keffer tells how her Prince Charming&#8217;s secret sin became more difficult to hide after they got married. Keffer encourages women to keep their eyes open, and ask hard questions about porn use before marriage.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-10-23.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:17","filesize":"24.97M","filesize_raw":"26187811","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2840,2903,2844],"tags":[2989],"podcast_series":[8311],"cwp_profile":[9572],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-305456","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-addiction","category-infidelity","category-pornography","tag-pornography","podcast_series-intimate-deception","cwp_profile-sheri-keffer","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/305456\/healing-wounds-of-sexual-betrayal","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/305456\/healing-wounds-of-sexual-betrayal","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"9PrtbYG1Wf\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/healing-wounds-of-sexual-betrayal\/\">Healing Wounds of Sexual Betrayal<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/healing-wounds-of-sexual-betrayal\/embed\/#?secret=9PrtbYG1Wf\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Healing Wounds of Sexual Betrayal&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"9PrtbYG1Wf\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-10-23.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-10-23.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>As a college student, Sheri Keffer says when she first met Conner, she was smitten. What she didn\u2019t realize 12 months later, as they were marrying, is that both of them were bringing significant issues into their marriage.\n\n<strong>Sheri: <\/strong>I had some intimacy issues of my own. I\u2019d grown up with mental illness in my home and so lived a very disconnected past. Because of that, I was drawn up into who he was. I thought, \u201cGreat. I\u2019ve got my ticket out of my life,\u201d because my life didn\u2019t look as good as he looked, and his family. What I didn\u2019t realize is that he had a secret.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Wednesday, October 23. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson, and I'm Bob Lepine. The \u201csecret\u201d that Conner had that Sheri Keffer didn\u2019t know anything about when she got married was a secret that would ultimately bring a lot of pain into their marriage. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I was thinking about the conversation we\u2019re going to have today, and Ann, I was thinking about you and thinking that as a pastor\u2019s wife, and a woman who has worked with wives of professional athletes for years, this is probably you\u2019ve heard first hand from a lot of wives over the years.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So many times, and not only from pastor\u2019s wives, but women in our congregation, players\u2019 wives\u2014all across the board. This is a topic that women will resonate with.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The topic is the big picture of sexual betrayal, or betrayal of marital intimacy. Dr. Sheri Keffer is joining us to talk about this.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s good to have a doctor in the studio. [Indistinct chatter] The level just went up.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Sheri, welcome to <em>FamilyLIfe Today<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> It\u2019s great being here with you all.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Sheri is in private practice as a counselor and therapist in southern California. She\u2019s been doing that for nearly 20 years. She\u2019s written a book called <em>Intimate Deception, Healing the Wounds of Sexual Betrayal<\/em>. This is not just a book for the people you work with. This is your story.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> It\u2019s my story. I hate to say\u2014and Ann, you just opened that with the players\u2014it\u2019s a lot of people\u2019s story. It\u2019s a lot of women\u2019s story. Even more men, now, are being betrayed.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> When you first opened up about your story, were you surprised at how many people came out of the woodwork and said, \u201cThis is my story, too.\u201d\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> I was. When I first opened up about my story, I was surprised I opened up about my story. That in itself is telling. There\u2019s a ton of shame when you\u2019ve been betrayed, whether it\u2019s through pornography, affairs, cybersex, prostitutes, whatever it is\u2014the shame attaches to you. It\u2019s like bad Velcro\u2014just like a tar baby. You feel so shameful about what\u2019s happened.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You\u2019re saying you feel that as the one who was betrayed?\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I can understand a betrayer feeling that way, but the one who was betrayed\u2014I would think you would feel righteous indignation.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> How does the shame be part of <em>your<\/em> story? Like Bob was saying, you\u2019re the innocent one.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> What does that look like?\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> You\u2019d think. There\u2019s reasons for that. There\u2019s a lot of science behind that, believe it or not. A quick story about science. The way our brain is wired\u2014it\u2019s wired to protect ourselves. When we\u2019re hurt, when there\u2019s trauma, we\u2019re impacted by pain\u2014the brain does a tricky thing. It puts a negative belief about us on ourselves in order to protect ourself from harm. It feels backwards, but it\u2019s really not. It\u2019s about self-protection.\n\nSo, if I believe I\u2019m not enough, if I believe I\u2019m shameful, if I believe I\u2019m not pretty enough, if I believe I can\u2019t trust anyone, if I believe I can\u2019t trust my judgement, do you think I\u2019m going to expose myself to any more hurt? No. Shame causes us to isolate and pull away. It guarantees our safety, but it also guarantees that we\u2019re alone. It guarantees that we\u2019re not really bringing our story out there. It guarantees that we\u2019re not talking about it and getting help.\n\nThat\u2019s why I love you all for doing this today and having your listeners listen because I know there are so many people listening right now that have never told anyone their story. They\u2019ve found porn on their husband\u2019s computer. They know of an affair. They\u2019ve found something, and it\u2019s like this silent death. You go inside instead of coming out and talking about it.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s true of not only that kind of abuse, but sexual abuse. I can remember the day that it happened to me multiple times. I thought, \u201cSomething must be wrong with me.\u201d That inward shame that we carry\u2014it\u2019s a secret because we feel so embarrassed and shameful that we don\u2019t really share our story or seek help.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> So true.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Sheri, let\u2019s go back to the beginning of your story. This happened when you had your head turned by a handsome, head-turning kind of guy.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> He was. He was. Yes, one of those beachy guys, and sun-tanned. When we met, I was in Bible college. I had gone to school with his brother, and he came to visit. I was in the ministry program. He said, \u201cI have a brother I want to introduce you to.\u201d I thought, \u201cPerfect. His brother\u2019s in ministry.\u201d My former husband was a pastor. We ended up meeting when we were on a singing tour, and I was smitten. Got to know him long-distance.\n\nWe had a fast long-distance relationship. We dated long-distance for a year. I saw him 12 times before we married. That should let you in to a secret, right? I had some intimacy issues of my own. I\u2019d grown up with mental illness in my home and so lived a very disconnected past. Because of that, I was drawn up into who he was. I thought, \u201cGreat. I\u2019ve got my ticket out of my life,\u201d because my life didn\u2019t look as good as he looked, and his family. What I didn\u2019t realize is that he had a secret and some intimacy issues, too.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> But you wouldn\u2019t assume that because he\u2019s a pastor.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> He\u2019s a pastor! Everything looked good. I thought, seriously, I thought, \u201cI\u2019m Cinderella\u2014slipper\u2014stick your foot in, girl, and run!\u201d [Laughter] I found out one piece of information\u2014which I regret today that I didn\u2019t ask more. To be honest, I didn\u2019t know I should ask. He told me at one point during our courtship that he had called a 900 number. Again, I was in Bible college at this time.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You say in the book you didn\u2019t even know what that is.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t. I had no idea what a 900 number was. I talked to his brother. I said, \u201cWhat\u2019s a 900 number?\u201d He said, \u201cIt\u2019s like a sex line.\u201d I said, \u201cOk.\u201d Then he said, \u201cBut all the guys listen to that here. Probably every guy on campus listens to that, so I wouldn\u2019t worry about it.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wait, wait, wait. You\u2019re in a Bible college, and that\u2019s what he said?\n\n<strong>Sheri: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cAll the guys listen.\u201d Wow.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> So, I minimized it. I forgave him because I thought that\u2019s what you\u2019re supposed to do. Who am I? I\u2019m not perfect. So, I forgave him, and I didn\u2019t ask any more questions.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Were you thinking\u2014because I think a lot of women think this\u2014it\u2019ll be better after we\u2019re married. He won\u2019t struggle with that anymore.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> Totally thought that. \u201cOur marriage is going to change things.\u201d Little did I know that there were years he had been struggling with porn and acting out. So, yes, I had that hope. It was a false hope. I think for me it was a level of denial. I just didn\u2019t know, but I also think there was a part\u2014I didn\u2019t want to know. I see that in so many women. When they find something in their home\u2014denial is that thing that makes us put our hands over our eyes, ears, and mouth and hope it goes away over time. But it usually gets worse.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If you were to discover what was true, the dream you were pursuing would have gone away.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> The fairy tale.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> You\u2019re right, Bob. It would crash and burn, and so many of us don\u2019t want to do that\u2014especially when we\u2019re falling in love, and we\u2019re wanting to have a story to build on in our family.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I think this is so important, whether you\u2019re married or single, wherever you are in a relationship. When your antenna goes up, when there are warning signs, and you want to push them away because you want to preserve the fantasy\u2014you need to know\u2014you\u2019re not doing yourself or anyone else any favors in doing that.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. There are red flags, and that\u2019s a big one.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I would add this, too. If you\u2019re dating someone\u2014I think it\u2019s a good question to ask. Ask the male and female, both ways. Have you now, or have you struggled, with porn in the past or now?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I might say, \u201cTell me about your struggle with porn,\u201d rather than, \u201cHave you?\u201d In this culture\u2014? We sat down with a group of dads and sons at church\u2014all of us in a circle. These were high school and junior-age kids, young men, and their dads. I said, \u201cWe\u2019re going to go around in a circle. Dads, I want you to tell us about your first exposure to pornography.\u201d We went around the circle, and every dad in that circle has a first-exposure story. Nobody said\u2014\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201c\u2014if.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cI\u2019ve not looked at it,\u201d right? Some guys could tell a story like, \u201cI was 12 years old. I saw this. It\u2019s been an isolated thing.\u201d Other guys got pretty candid. \u201cI got pulled down the rabbit hole, and it was a problem for years.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> If Bob\u2019s group of guys\u2014they\u2019ve all experienced that, and some women have as well. You found that with your husband before you were married. That\u2019s going to be a common thing you\u2019re going to find out. \u201cI called a 900 number, or I been visiting porn sites.\u201d What do you do with that information?\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> Let me say this. Let me back up the story. I think the porn industry is the perpetrator here. There are young kids\u2014just like you said, Bob. Most of us find it when we\u2019re young. When do you know it\u2019s a problem? When you ask someone\u2014and I did when I was dating someone this second time around. I was 17 years single again because I was pretty jacked up after the first marriage of betrayal. I did ask men, \u201cWhen\u2019s the last time you looked at porn? And do you struggle with it?\u201d\n\nI often have young ladies who are with somebody who\u2019s using porn on a regular basis go to a recovery group. The reason I do that is because I want to wake them up out of that denial into reality. I want them to get a feel for what it\u2019s going to be like and look like if you don\u2019t get help.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Where would you find that recovery group?\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> There is a group called APSATS.org has a recovery group\u2014groups of women all over. We\u2019re starting to build a network so people can find out this more easily. You want to get them connected with other people either online or face to face to start asking yourself, \u201cWhat is this? And how long?\u201d\n\nAnd then the guys need to get into treatment, the ones who are struggling 12-step SA groups, or SAA groups. You don\u2019t want to try to handle this alone. You need to get into counseling, get into recovery\u2014start peeling back that so that you can stop the acting out. It\u2019s hurting them, and it\u2019s also hurting you.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019ll put some links on our website, FamilyLifeToday.com.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> That would be awesome.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>To folks who would like more information about how they can find recovery groups for sexual addiction and for being a victim of betrayal. Let me go back to your first marriage. All you knew going into marriage was that \u201cI\u2019m marrying a pastor. He\u2019s good looking, and he\u2019s called a 900 number.\u201d That\u2019s really all you knew.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> That\u2019s all I knew.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u00a0What was true that you didn\u2019t know was that even though he was a pastor, he was looking at porn and was acting out.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> Yes, he was. That was the most difficult thing to go through because six months into our marriage, I began to notice him pulling away from me, and I didn\u2019t know why. I was kind of excited\u2014I\u2019d saved myself for marriage. I thought, \u201cWow. This is going to be cool\u2014to be married and share myself with someone in so many different ways.\u201d\n\nI noticed that when we would be intimate, he would pull away. I remember thinking, \u201cWhat am I doing wrong? What am I doing wrong?\u201d It didn\u2019t make sense, right? We\u2019re newlyweds. I talked to my best friend. I said, \u201cJulie, what happens in your marriage after you guys are intimate?\u201d She said, \u201cIt\u2019s like oil. We\u2019re closer the next day; we\u2019re more playful the next day.\u201d I was like, \u201cThat is not my journey.\u201d I hadn\u2019t discovered the porn yet. Once the porn came out, everything began to make sense.\n\nSome people in relationships, some women, tell stories about how their husband is very sexualized and is asking them to do things outside their moral comfort zone. It\u2019s basically, in my mind describing it, they\u2019re wanting their wives to be the porn. They\u2019re watching it. It\u2019s changing the way they\u2019re thinking about relationships. It\u2019s changed the way they think about their wife. They want their wife to be that. She\u2019s uncomfortable, and then she feels bad for not doing what he wants her to do, or she feels bad for what she did do.\n\nIt\u2019s porn-induced disconnection; it\u2019s not porn-induced intimacy. It\u2019s porn-induced disconnection. Intimacy has to do with reality. It has to do with, \u201cYou\u2019ve got a normal body,\u201d right? \u201cI\u2019ve got a normal body.\u201d We connect; we bond. We explore. But porn takes away curiosity. It takes away reality. There\u2019s research that shows that six hours of looking at porn actually pulls the relationship, the marriage, further apart. Six hours!\n\nSo, it\u2019s not good for marriage. It doesn\u2019t coexist with marriage. Porn doesn\u2019t coexist with our spirituality. It doesn\u2019t exist with our faith. You can\u2019t.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The husband or wife who says, \u201cMaybe we should try this because it will help\u2014\"\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201c\u2014enhance.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Counselors, secular counselors, will even suggest that. And you\u2019re saying that that will not help.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> This is what I say. [Makes a buzzer noise] Bad answer. [Laughter] You know why? Because you can\u2019t watch porn without comparison. You can\u2019t watch porn without, the woman, reflecting on what part of her isn\u2019t doing what that other woman is, or parts of her body that are imperfect. There is a sexual appetite that I don\u2019t think needs to be taught that way. That\u2019s the wives\u2019 tale around it, that you guys can get closer by watching it, but it\u2019s really more like having more people in your bed. I talk about that in one chapter of my book, \u201cRemember When Sex Was Safe and Skydiving Was Dangerous?\u201d\n\nI talk about a couple I was working with. They had porn in their relationship early on. Eventually, it began to erode her sense of self. She didn\u2019t feel like she was enough. The porn got more and more risky and odd. All that to say is she asked him to stop. She got stronger. She was listening and learning a lot and said, \u201cNo. I don\u2019t want to have it.\u201d It didn\u2019t go over well because he hadn\u2019t started his recovery. He hadn\u2019t been facing how it had been hurting him, and he was minimizing that.\n\nSo, as soon as she drew the line, she started taking care of herself, she started feeling more dignity in her heart\u2014better about who she was. They both got into treatment.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I want to go back. I\u2019m imagining the engaged man or woman who\u2019s listening and thinking, \u201cI\u2019m afraid to ask the question.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Who\u2019s freaking out.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \u201cI\u2019m afraid to ask the question of my fianc\u00e9 because I\u2019m afraid of what the answer might be. I\u2019m now not sure what an Ok answer is, or if this is the end of the relationship. How can I discern?\u201d If a young woman sits down and says to a guy, \u201cI want to know\u2014\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201c\u2014when was the last time\u2014\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201c\u2014when was the last time you looked at porn?\u201d And he said, \u201cLike all guys, this is something I\u2019ve struggled with on occasion, and the last time was four weeks ago. I always feel shame when I do it. I always think that I\u2019m not going to do this again, and then somehow I slip up again awhile later. I\u2019ve tried to figure out how to stop it. I\u2019ve talked to friends, and I\u2019m trying to get some accountability. I don\u2019t want it to be part of our marriage, but that\u2019s the truth.\u201d\n\nShe gets an answer like that from a guy, does she go, \u201cOk. We\u2019re Ok.\u201d Or does she go, \u201cOk. This is over.\u201d How does she diagnose in that moment whether it\u2019s safe to go forward?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What is she looking for?\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> Good question. Safety. And integrity. And to watch him over a long period of time stop. If I\u2019m in a situation with her, I would say, \u201cHow important is safety to you in your relationship? How important is fidelity?\u201d And you want to see that on the dating side. Say they talk, and he says, \u201cYes, but I can\u2019t stop.\u201d \u201cWould you be willing to get into the kind of recovery in order to get your sobriety?\u201d It\u2019s really about sobriety.\n\nRecovery is getting into some process where you start going and showing up, There\u2019s accountability, and you\u2019re working toward stopping the acting out. Sobriety is what you want. Sobriety is how many days since you last looked. That\u2019s what you want to know. I want a sober relationship. I want to date someone who is sexually sober. I want to date somebody who jumps in and says, \u201cIt is a problem for me, but I care enough about you that I want to stop.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So, what\u2019s an appropriate number of days? \u201cI\u2019ve been clean this many days.\u201d Or, \u201cI haven\u2019t looked in\u2014.\u201d Are they looking for a day, or are they looking for a lifestyle?\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> I would say vote for lifestyle, right? Anybody can white knuckle it for so many days, but even in the recovery world in the 12-step programs\u2014they have a 90-day cooling off program. Whether you\u2019re married or single, you don\u2019t have sex with yourself or anybody else. That is the cooling off period. You\u2019re working on establishing that stop button inside.\n\nThen you work on developing, after the 90 days, 120 days, six months, eight months, a year, two years, three years. So, I want to be with somebody who\u2019s sexually sober. Life is better with somebody who is sexually sober. But I want somebody who is willing, if they\u2019re struggling, to get into counseling and begin to work on sobriety and begin to stop the acting out because it\u2019s hurting\u2014it\u2019s hurting the couple\u2014it\u2019s hurting the individuals.\n\nMy research shows that. I took a survey with 100 women to find out what goes on with sexual acting out. Seventy-nine percent of these women had clinical symptoms of post-traumatic stress. Seventy-nine percent. That\u2019s three out of four women who discovered that some form of acting out. Could\u2019ve been porn. Could\u2019ve been porn plus affair. Might\u2019ve been porn plus cybersex, whatever. Seventy-nine percent of them had clinical symptoms of post-traumatic stress. That\u2019s the same kind of stuff people get when they go out and serve our nation, and they\u2019re in battle.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> At war.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> This is the same measures that are used to test that. So, that tells you something. When Jesus said that when you look at somebody, and you are lusting after them, you already have adultery in your heart. It\u2019s not good. Jesus\u2014He didn\u2019t have a problem with the line. The Hebrew word for lust, the word is \u201cava,\u201d which means \u201cthe nail that hooks you to itself.\u201d\n\nThe opposite of that, the word \u201ckaveh,\u201d is the word for hope, which means \u201cwhat comes after the nail.\u201d I\u2019m in the business of trying to help people get to hope\u2014get to what comes after the nail, right? The acting out hooks us to itself. It\u2019s like cancer in a relationship.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I would say thank you. I\u2019m thinking\u2014have this conversation. Married couples, pre-married couples\u2014so many don\u2019t even want to go where we\u2019re going. You talk about PTSD and all the things going on. I hope listeners are going, \u201cWe need to talk tonight. Not like I\u2019m scared, but I want to have this conversation.\u201d I would say to them, \u201cHave it tonight.\u201d I know it sounds like you\u2019re going into the tunnel of darkness. Ann and I have this conversation regularly. It\u2019s something every couple needs to do. If you\u2019re not married yet, do not be afraid to have this conversation and see where God takes it.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Bring grace to the table when you have the conversation because you may hear from somebody who\u2019s stumbling. Grace is not a \u201cwe\u2019ll pretend like that didn\u2019t happen or there aren\u2019t any consequences or we just hide our head in the sand.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I would recommend, too, that before you have that conversation\u2014pray. Allow God to soften your heart, prepare your hearts, and pray before you go in. It can be volatile.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Maybe before you have the conversation, get a copy of Sheri\u2019s book, which means you don\u2019t have it tonight, you have it a week from now. We\u2019ve got copies of Sher\u2019s book <em>Intimate Deception, Healing the Wounds of Sexual Betrayal<\/em>. You can go to our website FamilyLifeToday.com to order, or call 1-800-FLTODAY. Again, the book is titled <em>Intimate Deception.<\/em> Order online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nWe hear from listeners pretty much every year during or right after the holiday season about how they have experienced challenges or strains in their family relationships during the holidays. Sometimes we don\u2019t look forward to the holiday season because we\u2019re anticipating some of those relationship strains.\n\nHere at FamilyLife we\u2019ve put together a free e-book that we want to make available to you. It\u2019s called <em>The Holiday Survival Guide<\/em>. It includes prayers for challenging family relationships, insights on how to handle conflict with extended family members, ways to bond with sons or daughters-in-law, tips on how you can deal with awkward family situations that may occur during the holidays.\n\nWe want you to be ready as the season approaches\u2014spiritually ready. That\u2019s what this e-book is all about. Go to FamilyLife.com to order <em>The Holiday Survival Guide<\/em>. Again, it\u2019s a free e-book, and you can order it on our website on FamilyLifeToday.com.\n\nWe hope you can join us back again tomorrow. Sheri Keffer\u2019s going to be here again. We\u2019re going to continue hearing her story about what happened when the secret in her marriage could not be contained any longer. We\u2019ll talk about that tomorrow.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. 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Keffer tells how her Prince Charming's secret sin became more difficult to hide after they got married. Keffer encourages women to keep their eyes open, and ask hard questions about porn use before marriage.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-10-23.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>As a college student, Sheri Keffer says when she first met Conner, she was smitten. What she didn\u2019t realize 12 months later, as they were marrying, is that both of them were bringing significant issues into their marriage.\n\n<strong>Sheri: <\/strong>I had some intimacy issues of my own. I\u2019d grown up with mental illness in my home and so lived a very disconnected past. Because of that, I was drawn up into who he was. I thought, \u201cGreat. I\u2019ve got my ticket out of my life,\u201d because my life didn\u2019t look as good as he looked, and his family. What I didn\u2019t realize is that he had a secret.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Wednesday, October 23. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson, and I'm Bob Lepine. The \u201csecret\u201d that Conner had that Sheri Keffer didn\u2019t know anything about when she got married was a secret that would ultimately bring a lot of pain into their marriage. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I was thinking about the conversation we\u2019re going to have today, and Ann, I was thinking about you and thinking that as a pastor\u2019s wife, and a woman who has worked with wives of professional athletes for years, this is probably you\u2019ve heard first hand from a lot of wives over the years.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So many times, and not only from pastor\u2019s wives, but women in our congregation, players\u2019 wives\u2014all across the board. This is a topic that women will resonate with.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The topic is the big picture of sexual betrayal, or betrayal of marital intimacy. Dr. Sheri Keffer is joining us to talk about this.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s good to have a doctor in the studio. [Indistinct chatter] The level just went up.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Sheri, welcome to <em>FamilyLIfe Today<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> It\u2019s great being here with you all.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Sheri is in private practice as a counselor and therapist in southern California. She\u2019s been doing that for nearly 20 years. She\u2019s written a book called <em>Intimate Deception, Healing the Wounds of Sexual Betrayal<\/em>. This is not just a book for the people you work with. This is your story.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> It\u2019s my story. I hate to say\u2014and Ann, you just opened that with the players\u2014it\u2019s a lot of people\u2019s story. It\u2019s a lot of women\u2019s story. Even more men, now, are being betrayed.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> When you first opened up about your story, were you surprised at how many people came out of the woodwork and said, \u201cThis is my story, too.\u201d\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> I was. When I first opened up about my story, I was surprised I opened up about my story. That in itself is telling. There\u2019s a ton of shame when you\u2019ve been betrayed, whether it\u2019s through pornography, affairs, cybersex, prostitutes, whatever it is\u2014the shame attaches to you. It\u2019s like bad Velcro\u2014just like a tar baby. You feel so shameful about what\u2019s happened.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You\u2019re saying you feel that as the one who was betrayed?\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I can understand a betrayer feeling that way, but the one who was betrayed\u2014I would think you would feel righteous indignation.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> How does the shame be part of <em>your<\/em> story? Like Bob was saying, you\u2019re the innocent one.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> What does that look like?\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> You\u2019d think. There\u2019s reasons for that. There\u2019s a lot of science behind that, believe it or not. A quick story about science. The way our brain is wired\u2014it\u2019s wired to protect ourselves. When we\u2019re hurt, when there\u2019s trauma, we\u2019re impacted by pain\u2014the brain does a tricky thing. It puts a negative belief about us on ourselves in order to protect ourself from harm. It feels backwards, but it\u2019s really not. It\u2019s about self-protection.\n\nSo, if I believe I\u2019m not enough, if I believe I\u2019m shameful, if I believe I\u2019m not pretty enough, if I believe I can\u2019t trust anyone, if I believe I can\u2019t trust my judgement, do you think I\u2019m going to expose myself to any more hurt? No. Shame causes us to isolate and pull away. It guarantees our safety, but it also guarantees that we\u2019re alone. It guarantees that we\u2019re not really bringing our story out there. It guarantees that we\u2019re not talking about it and getting help.\n\nThat\u2019s why I love you all for doing this today and having your listeners listen because I know there are so many people listening right now that have never told anyone their story. They\u2019ve found porn on their husband\u2019s computer. They know of an affair. They\u2019ve found something, and it\u2019s like this silent death. You go inside instead of coming out and talking about it.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s true of not only that kind of abuse, but sexual abuse. I can remember the day that it happened to me multiple times. I thought, \u201cSomething must be wrong with me.\u201d That inward shame that we carry\u2014it\u2019s a secret because we feel so embarrassed and shameful that we don\u2019t really share our story or seek help.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> So true.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Sheri, let\u2019s go back to the beginning of your story. This happened when you had your head turned by a handsome, head-turning kind of guy.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> He was. He was. Yes, one of those beachy guys, and sun-tanned. When we met, I was in Bible college. I had gone to school with his brother, and he came to visit. I was in the ministry program. He said, \u201cI have a brother I want to introduce you to.\u201d I thought, \u201cPerfect. His brother\u2019s in ministry.\u201d My former husband was a pastor. We ended up meeting when we were on a singing tour, and I was smitten. Got to know him long-distance.\n\nWe had a fast long-distance relationship. We dated long-distance for a year. I saw him 12 times before we married. That should let you in to a secret, right? I had some intimacy issues of my own. I\u2019d grown up with mental illness in my home and so lived a very disconnected past. Because of that, I was drawn up into who he was. I thought, \u201cGreat. I\u2019ve got my ticket out of my life,\u201d because my life didn\u2019t look as good as he looked, and his family. What I didn\u2019t realize is that he had a secret and some intimacy issues, too.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> But you wouldn\u2019t assume that because he\u2019s a pastor.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> He\u2019s a pastor! Everything looked good. I thought, seriously, I thought, \u201cI\u2019m Cinderella\u2014slipper\u2014stick your foot in, girl, and run!\u201d [Laughter] I found out one piece of information\u2014which I regret today that I didn\u2019t ask more. To be honest, I didn\u2019t know I should ask. He told me at one point during our courtship that he had called a 900 number. Again, I was in Bible college at this time.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You say in the book you didn\u2019t even know what that is.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t. I had no idea what a 900 number was. I talked to his brother. I said, \u201cWhat\u2019s a 900 number?\u201d He said, \u201cIt\u2019s like a sex line.\u201d I said, \u201cOk.\u201d Then he said, \u201cBut all the guys listen to that here. Probably every guy on campus listens to that, so I wouldn\u2019t worry about it.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wait, wait, wait. You\u2019re in a Bible college, and that\u2019s what he said?\n\n<strong>Sheri: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cAll the guys listen.\u201d Wow.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> So, I minimized it. I forgave him because I thought that\u2019s what you\u2019re supposed to do. Who am I? I\u2019m not perfect. So, I forgave him, and I didn\u2019t ask any more questions.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Were you thinking\u2014because I think a lot of women think this\u2014it\u2019ll be better after we\u2019re married. He won\u2019t struggle with that anymore.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> Totally thought that. \u201cOur marriage is going to change things.\u201d Little did I know that there were years he had been struggling with porn and acting out. So, yes, I had that hope. It was a false hope. I think for me it was a level of denial. I just didn\u2019t know, but I also think there was a part\u2014I didn\u2019t want to know. I see that in so many women. When they find something in their home\u2014denial is that thing that makes us put our hands over our eyes, ears, and mouth and hope it goes away over time. But it usually gets worse.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If you were to discover what was true, the dream you were pursuing would have gone away.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> The fairy tale.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> You\u2019re right, Bob. It would crash and burn, and so many of us don\u2019t want to do that\u2014especially when we\u2019re falling in love, and we\u2019re wanting to have a story to build on in our family.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I think this is so important, whether you\u2019re married or single, wherever you are in a relationship. When your antenna goes up, when there are warning signs, and you want to push them away because you want to preserve the fantasy\u2014you need to know\u2014you\u2019re not doing yourself or anyone else any favors in doing that.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. There are red flags, and that\u2019s a big one.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I would add this, too. If you\u2019re dating someone\u2014I think it\u2019s a good question to ask. Ask the male and female, both ways. Have you now, or have you struggled, with porn in the past or now?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I might say, \u201cTell me about your struggle with porn,\u201d rather than, \u201cHave you?\u201d In this culture\u2014? We sat down with a group of dads and sons at church\u2014all of us in a circle. These were high school and junior-age kids, young men, and their dads. I said, \u201cWe\u2019re going to go around in a circle. Dads, I want you to tell us about your first exposure to pornography.\u201d We went around the circle, and every dad in that circle has a first-exposure story. Nobody said\u2014\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201c\u2014if.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cI\u2019ve not looked at it,\u201d right? Some guys could tell a story like, \u201cI was 12 years old. I saw this. It\u2019s been an isolated thing.\u201d Other guys got pretty candid. \u201cI got pulled down the rabbit hole, and it was a problem for years.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> If Bob\u2019s group of guys\u2014they\u2019ve all experienced that, and some women have as well. You found that with your husband before you were married. That\u2019s going to be a common thing you\u2019re going to find out. \u201cI called a 900 number, or I been visiting porn sites.\u201d What do you do with that information?\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> Let me say this. Let me back up the story. I think the porn industry is the perpetrator here. There are young kids\u2014just like you said, Bob. Most of us find it when we\u2019re young. When do you know it\u2019s a problem? When you ask someone\u2014and I did when I was dating someone this second time around. I was 17 years single again because I was pretty jacked up after the first marriage of betrayal. I did ask men, \u201cWhen\u2019s the last time you looked at porn? And do you struggle with it?\u201d\n\nI often have young ladies who are with somebody who\u2019s using porn on a regular basis go to a recovery group. The reason I do that is because I want to wake them up out of that denial into reality. I want them to get a feel for what it\u2019s going to be like and look like if you don\u2019t get help.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Where would you find that recovery group?\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> There is a group called APSATS.org has a recovery group\u2014groups of women all over. We\u2019re starting to build a network so people can find out this more easily. You want to get them connected with other people either online or face to face to start asking yourself, \u201cWhat is this? And how long?\u201d\n\nAnd then the guys need to get into treatment, the ones who are struggling 12-step SA groups, or SAA groups. You don\u2019t want to try to handle this alone. You need to get into counseling, get into recovery\u2014start peeling back that so that you can stop the acting out. It\u2019s hurting them, and it\u2019s also hurting you.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019ll put some links on our website, FamilyLifeToday.com.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> That would be awesome.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>To folks who would like more information about how they can find recovery groups for sexual addiction and for being a victim of betrayal. Let me go back to your first marriage. All you knew going into marriage was that \u201cI\u2019m marrying a pastor. He\u2019s good looking, and he\u2019s called a 900 number.\u201d That\u2019s really all you knew.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> That\u2019s all I knew.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u00a0What was true that you didn\u2019t know was that even though he was a pastor, he was looking at porn and was acting out.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> Yes, he was. That was the most difficult thing to go through because six months into our marriage, I began to notice him pulling away from me, and I didn\u2019t know why. I was kind of excited\u2014I\u2019d saved myself for marriage. I thought, \u201cWow. This is going to be cool\u2014to be married and share myself with someone in so many different ways.\u201d\n\nI noticed that when we would be intimate, he would pull away. I remember thinking, \u201cWhat am I doing wrong? What am I doing wrong?\u201d It didn\u2019t make sense, right? We\u2019re newlyweds. I talked to my best friend. I said, \u201cJulie, what happens in your marriage after you guys are intimate?\u201d She said, \u201cIt\u2019s like oil. We\u2019re closer the next day; we\u2019re more playful the next day.\u201d I was like, \u201cThat is not my journey.\u201d I hadn\u2019t discovered the porn yet. Once the porn came out, everything began to make sense.\n\nSome people in relationships, some women, tell stories about how their husband is very sexualized and is asking them to do things outside their moral comfort zone. It\u2019s basically, in my mind describing it, they\u2019re wanting their wives to be the porn. They\u2019re watching it. It\u2019s changing the way they\u2019re thinking about relationships. It\u2019s changed the way they think about their wife. They want their wife to be that. She\u2019s uncomfortable, and then she feels bad for not doing what he wants her to do, or she feels bad for what she did do.\n\nIt\u2019s porn-induced disconnection; it\u2019s not porn-induced intimacy. It\u2019s porn-induced disconnection. Intimacy has to do with reality. It has to do with, \u201cYou\u2019ve got a normal body,\u201d right? \u201cI\u2019ve got a normal body.\u201d We connect; we bond. We explore. But porn takes away curiosity. It takes away reality. There\u2019s research that shows that six hours of looking at porn actually pulls the relationship, the marriage, further apart. Six hours!\n\nSo, it\u2019s not good for marriage. It doesn\u2019t coexist with marriage. Porn doesn\u2019t coexist with our spirituality. It doesn\u2019t exist with our faith. You can\u2019t.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The husband or wife who says, \u201cMaybe we should try this because it will help\u2014\"\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201c\u2014enhance.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Counselors, secular counselors, will even suggest that. And you\u2019re saying that that will not help.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> This is what I say. [Makes a buzzer noise] Bad answer. [Laughter] You know why? Because you can\u2019t watch porn without comparison. You can\u2019t watch porn without, the woman, reflecting on what part of her isn\u2019t doing what that other woman is, or parts of her body that are imperfect. There is a sexual appetite that I don\u2019t think needs to be taught that way. That\u2019s the wives\u2019 tale around it, that you guys can get closer by watching it, but it\u2019s really more like having more people in your bed. I talk about that in one chapter of my book, \u201cRemember When Sex Was Safe and Skydiving Was Dangerous?\u201d\n\nI talk about a couple I was working with. They had porn in their relationship early on. Eventually, it began to erode her sense of self. She didn\u2019t feel like she was enough. The porn got more and more risky and odd. All that to say is she asked him to stop. She got stronger. She was listening and learning a lot and said, \u201cNo. I don\u2019t want to have it.\u201d It didn\u2019t go over well because he hadn\u2019t started his recovery. He hadn\u2019t been facing how it had been hurting him, and he was minimizing that.\n\nSo, as soon as she drew the line, she started taking care of herself, she started feeling more dignity in her heart\u2014better about who she was. They both got into treatment.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I want to go back. I\u2019m imagining the engaged man or woman who\u2019s listening and thinking, \u201cI\u2019m afraid to ask the question.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Who\u2019s freaking out.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \u201cI\u2019m afraid to ask the question of my fianc\u00e9 because I\u2019m afraid of what the answer might be. I\u2019m now not sure what an Ok answer is, or if this is the end of the relationship. How can I discern?\u201d If a young woman sits down and says to a guy, \u201cI want to know\u2014\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201c\u2014when was the last time\u2014\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201c\u2014when was the last time you looked at porn?\u201d And he said, \u201cLike all guys, this is something I\u2019ve struggled with on occasion, and the last time was four weeks ago. I always feel shame when I do it. I always think that I\u2019m not going to do this again, and then somehow I slip up again awhile later. I\u2019ve tried to figure out how to stop it. I\u2019ve talked to friends, and I\u2019m trying to get some accountability. I don\u2019t want it to be part of our marriage, but that\u2019s the truth.\u201d\n\nShe gets an answer like that from a guy, does she go, \u201cOk. We\u2019re Ok.\u201d Or does she go, \u201cOk. This is over.\u201d How does she diagnose in that moment whether it\u2019s safe to go forward?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What is she looking for?\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> Good question. Safety. And integrity. And to watch him over a long period of time stop. If I\u2019m in a situation with her, I would say, \u201cHow important is safety to you in your relationship? How important is fidelity?\u201d And you want to see that on the dating side. Say they talk, and he says, \u201cYes, but I can\u2019t stop.\u201d \u201cWould you be willing to get into the kind of recovery in order to get your sobriety?\u201d It\u2019s really about sobriety.\n\nRecovery is getting into some process where you start going and showing up, There\u2019s accountability, and you\u2019re working toward stopping the acting out. Sobriety is what you want. Sobriety is how many days since you last looked. That\u2019s what you want to know. I want a sober relationship. I want to date someone who is sexually sober. I want to date somebody who jumps in and says, \u201cIt is a problem for me, but I care enough about you that I want to stop.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So, what\u2019s an appropriate number of days? \u201cI\u2019ve been clean this many days.\u201d Or, \u201cI haven\u2019t looked in\u2014.\u201d Are they looking for a day, or are they looking for a lifestyle?\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> I would say vote for lifestyle, right? Anybody can white knuckle it for so many days, but even in the recovery world in the 12-step programs\u2014they have a 90-day cooling off program. Whether you\u2019re married or single, you don\u2019t have sex with yourself or anybody else. That is the cooling off period. You\u2019re working on establishing that stop button inside.\n\nThen you work on developing, after the 90 days, 120 days, six months, eight months, a year, two years, three years. So, I want to be with somebody who\u2019s sexually sober. Life is better with somebody who is sexually sober. But I want somebody who is willing, if they\u2019re struggling, to get into counseling and begin to work on sobriety and begin to stop the acting out because it\u2019s hurting\u2014it\u2019s hurting the couple\u2014it\u2019s hurting the individuals.\n\nMy research shows that. I took a survey with 100 women to find out what goes on with sexual acting out. Seventy-nine percent of these women had clinical symptoms of post-traumatic stress. Seventy-nine percent. That\u2019s three out of four women who discovered that some form of acting out. Could\u2019ve been porn. Could\u2019ve been porn plus affair. Might\u2019ve been porn plus cybersex, whatever. Seventy-nine percent of them had clinical symptoms of post-traumatic stress. That\u2019s the same kind of stuff people get when they go out and serve our nation, and they\u2019re in battle.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> At war.\n\n<strong>Sheri:<\/strong> This is the same measures that are used to test that. So, that tells you something. When Jesus said that when you look at somebody, and you are lusting after them, you already have adultery in your heart. It\u2019s not good. Jesus\u2014He didn\u2019t have a problem with the line. The Hebrew word for lust, the word is \u201cava,\u201d which means \u201cthe nail that hooks you to itself.\u201d\n\nThe opposite of that, the word \u201ckaveh,\u201d is the word for hope, which means \u201cwhat comes after the nail.\u201d I\u2019m in the business of trying to help people get to hope\u2014get to what comes after the nail, right? The acting out hooks us to itself. It\u2019s like cancer in a relationship.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I would say thank you. I\u2019m thinking\u2014have this conversation. Married couples, pre-married couples\u2014so many don\u2019t even want to go where we\u2019re going. You talk about PTSD and all the things going on. I hope listeners are going, \u201cWe need to talk tonight. Not like I\u2019m scared, but I want to have this conversation.\u201d I would say to them, \u201cHave it tonight.\u201d I know it sounds like you\u2019re going into the tunnel of darkness. Ann and I have this conversation regularly. It\u2019s something every couple needs to do. If you\u2019re not married yet, do not be afraid to have this conversation and see where God takes it.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Bring grace to the table when you have the conversation because you may hear from somebody who\u2019s stumbling. Grace is not a \u201cwe\u2019ll pretend like that didn\u2019t happen or there aren\u2019t any consequences or we just hide our head in the sand.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I would recommend, too, that before you have that conversation\u2014pray. Allow God to soften your heart, prepare your hearts, and pray before you go in. It can be volatile.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Maybe before you have the conversation, get a copy of Sheri\u2019s book, which means you don\u2019t have it tonight, you have it a week from now. We\u2019ve got copies of Sher\u2019s book <em>Intimate Deception, Healing the Wounds of Sexual Betrayal<\/em>. You can go to our website FamilyLifeToday.com to order, or call 1-800-FLTODAY. Again, the book is titled <em>Intimate Deception.<\/em> Order online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nWe hear from listeners pretty much every year during or right after the holiday season about how they have experienced challenges or strains in their family relationships during the holidays. Sometimes we don\u2019t look forward to the holiday season because we\u2019re anticipating some of those relationship strains.\n\nHere at FamilyLife we\u2019ve put together a free e-book that we want to make available to you. It\u2019s called <em>The Holiday Survival Guide<\/em>. It includes prayers for challenging family relationships, insights on how to handle conflict with extended family members, ways to bond with sons or daughters-in-law, tips on how you can deal with awkward family situations that may occur during the holidays.\n\nWe want you to be ready as the season approaches\u2014spiritually ready. That\u2019s what this e-book is all about. Go to FamilyLife.com to order <em>The Holiday Survival Guide<\/em>. Again, it\u2019s a free e-book, and you can order it on our website on FamilyLifeToday.com.\n\nWe hope you can join us back again tomorrow. Sheri Keffer\u2019s going to be here again. We\u2019re going to continue hearing her story about what happened when the secret in her marriage could not be contained any longer. We\u2019ll talk about that tomorrow.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. 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