{"id":305452,"date":"2019-10-22T06:00:05","date_gmt":"2019-10-22T10:00:05","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/called-to-forgive\/"},"modified":"2019-10-22T06:00:05","modified_gmt":"2019-10-22T10:00:05","slug":"called-to-forgive","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/called-to-forgive\/","title":{"rendered":"Called to Forgive"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>guest: Anthony Thompson, Kim Anthony | Anthony Thompson&#8217;s wife was one of nine people murdered on June 17, 2015, at EAM Episcopal church in Charleston, South Carolina. At the bond hearing, he stood before the killer and said, &#8220;I forgive you and my family forgives you.&#8221; Who or what enabled him to say that?<\/p>\n<p>Show Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tListen to the entire episode &#8220;9: Called To Forgive&#8221; from Unfavorable Odds\u2122 with Kim Anthony and guest Anthony Thompson. (41 min. podcast) https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/unfavorable-odds\/9-called-to-forgive\/<br \/>\n \tSubscribe to the Unfavorable Odds\u2122 podcast.\u00a0 https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/unfavorable-odds\/<br \/>\n \tThe Holiday Survival Guide has plenty of wisdom, insight, and guidance on how to manage holiday stressors.\u00a0 https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/holiday-survival-guide\/<br \/>\n \tHas the FamilyLife Today\u00ae podcast and resources helped you?\u00a0 Consider becoming a Legacy Partner, a monthly supporter of FamilyLife.\u00a0https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/legacy<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Anthony Thompson&#8217;s wife was one of nine people murdered on June 17, 2015 in Charleston, South Carolina. At the bond hearing, he stood before the killer and said, &#8220;I forgive you.&#8221; What enabled him to say that?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-10-22.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:30","filesize":"25.17M","filesize_raw":"26395783","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2848,2847,2908,2827],"tags":[2699],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[9560,9519],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-305452","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cultural-issues","category-death-and-dying","category-forgiveness","category-repentance","tag-forgiveness","cwp_profile-anthony-thompson","cwp_profile-kim-anthony","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/305452\/called-to-forgive","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/305452\/called-to-forgive","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"EBDGVvQpVC\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/called-to-forgive\/\">Called to Forgive<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/called-to-forgive\/embed\/#?secret=EBDGVvQpVC\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Called to Forgive&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"EBDGVvQpVC\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-10-22.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-10-22.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>What happened onJune 17<sup>th<\/sup>, 2015, is something most of us will never forget.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[News footage clips:]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cNine people killed by a young man, 21 years old.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cWhite male in his early 20s walked into the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church and began shooting.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cMr. Roof is charged with nine counts of murder and one count of possession of a weapon during the commission of the crime.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cYou hurt me. You hurt a lot of people.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cRoof showed no emotion as relatives of the victims addressed him over a video link.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cEvery fiber in my body hurts. I will never talk to her ever again. I will never hold her again but I forgive you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cYour name sir.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cAnthony Thompson. I forgive you and my family forgives you. We would like you to take this opportunity to repent. Give your life to the One who matters the most, Christ. So He can change it. He can change your ways no matter what happened to you. And, you\u2019ll be okay.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cGod have mercy on you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. We\u2019re going to revisit a sober moment in our nation\u2019s history. I think back over the last several years and the incidents of gun violence in schools and in communities. But you stop and think about what happened in Charleston, South Carolina back in 2015 in a church prayer meeting. For some reason that just, that grips me probably because of the context of the setting but also probably because of how that community responded to the shooting that took place in their community and how God has been at work in that setting.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>One of the amazing things is they responded so quickly.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>With grace, love, forgiveness. I can remember, as I\u2019m sure we all do, getting the news and putting yourself in that church, in that Bible study, and thinking how horrific it was and the anger and the justice that would just grip your heart. To hear these stories, which we are going to hear today, of how God met them in the middle of that in a powerful, powerful way.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>There are times of tragedy where you\u2019re awestruck of a community coming together and you\u2019re inspired by their ability to forgive. This is one of those circumstances.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Kim Anthony, who hosts the FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> podcast, <em>Unfavorable Odds<\/em>, which is a part of FamilyLife\u2019s Podcast Network, had the opportunity recently to talk with a pastor in Charleston. The unique thing about this pastor, Anthony Thompson, was his wife Myra was at the Bible study on the night of the shooting. She was one of the victims. We are going to hear his story and his recounting of that day, as he talked with Kim on her podcast, <em>Unfavorable Odds<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Recording]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>I want to start with the events of June 17<sup>th<\/sup>, 2015. Your wife, Myra, was excited about some things that were going on in her life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0<strong>Anthony:<\/strong> Yes. We were having a good day. She was very excited. She had this great big smile. I mean, just blooming with joy. Normally, we would walk each other to the door, say goodbye, give a kiss, \u201cLove you.\u201d That particular day for some reason I couldn\u2019t get to the door. She told me to meet her outside at the car because the rule is you don\u2019t leave the house until we say Goodbye, hug, kiss\u2014the whole nine yards\u2014but it never happened that day.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat evening, when I came home, I received a phone call from Emanuel Church saying that there was some shooting going on around the church, so I dropped the phone and I just get in my car. I got to Emanuel in about five minutes because we live in the downtown area. However, one of the police officers explained to me that they took everybody out of the church and took them to the hotel which was adjacent to the church, so I ran to the hotel trying to find her. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I got there, I saw Sister Polly Sheppard. She was one of the survivors. I saw Felicia Sanders, another survivor, and her grandchild\u2014another survivor. Felicia just looked at me and she said, \u201cAnthony, Myra\u2019s gone.\u201d Of course, I didn\u2019t accept it right away.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI ran toward the church. I got to the gate and I was about\u2014maybe\u2014five feet away from the door where the police officers were back and forth, back and forth. Somebody snatched me. It took five people to hold me down. I was determined to get in that church. I just kept explaining to them my wife was in there and I needed to get in there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI asked a lot of questions. Nobody was able to give me any answers. I was an agent for 27 years and I already knew not getting any answers that she was dead. I just fell down on the ground. I just started crying. I just wallowed, I just lost control\u2014oh boy. I just kept saying \u201cI don\u2019t know what to do.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen I heard a voice say, \u201cGet up!\u201d I thought maybe one of the first responders. I heard them a second time, so I looked around\u2014still didn\u2019t see anybody. Third time, I knew who it was. It was God. He was telling me \u201cGet up!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo I got up and He\u2019s telling me to remember the sermons I used to have in my congregation about when you lose a loved one\u2014your wife or your husband or your child\u2014and you love them more than you love God\u2014then what are you going to do? I\u2019m like \u201cNot tonight.\u201d I really didn\u2019t want to hear anything He had to say, but He just kept coming at me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe gave me a Scripture\u2014Saint Luke, 17<sup>th<\/sup> chapter. The Scripture said that things will happen in life\u2014people will do things in life to you to cause you to stumble. Woe to the one who causes you to stumble. He would rather have a millstone tied around his neck and thrown into the sea than to bother one of God\u2019s people. I\u2019m trying to figure out what that\u2019s about. Then the next verse it says, forgive. No matter how many times somebody do something to you, you forgive them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was still trying to figure out what does that have to do with me, because at that time, I had no idea who the killer was\u2014didn\u2019t know his name\u2014didn\u2019t even care about who it was because all my thoughts were about Myra.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> You are telling me\u2014I want to make sure I understand this correctly\u2014you\u2019re telling me that you\u2019re outside of the church when God is speaking to you about forgiving and you don\u2019t even know the full picture. You don\u2019t have the full picture but yet God\u2014in His love for you\u2014reaches down and prepares you for what you are about to find out, and He tells you to forgive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Anthony:<\/strong> Forgive, and I\u2019m trying to figure out why? Who I have to forgive? I really didn\u2019t want to hear what He had to say that night, but I took the Scripture and I read it and I examined it and I preached it that Sunday. Before I preached that sermon on Sunday\u201448 hours after the tragedy\u2014we had to go to a bond hearing. Of course, I was not going. My daughter\u2019s son came to me and said \u201cFather, they\u2019re having a bond hearing and you\u2019re not so sure.\u201d They said, \u201cWell, we\u2019re getting ready to go. I said, \u201cGood, because I\u2019m not going.\u201d My daughter came to me and said, \u201cWell, Father, if you don\u2019t go, I may have to go without you.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cOh boy.\u201d She\u2019s my baby girl. I wanted to be there for them\u2014I knew\u2014so I got up and I went. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI told them on the way to the bond hearing\u2014I was very adamant about them keeping their mouths closed. I said, \u201cI don\u2019t want you to say anything. We\u2019re not going to be there very long. We\u2019re going to be there for a short time.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo we went, sat down\u2014I was looking at my watch because I was ready to go. First person that speak was Nadine, whose mother was one of the victims, Ethel Lance. She told Dylann, \u201cI forgive you. The Lord have mercy on your soul.\u201d I was like, \u201cYou know that\u2019s enough.\u201d I looked at my kids and said, \u201cLet\u2019s go.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, the Lord said, \u201cGet up. I have something to say.\u201d On my way to the podium, I\u2019m talking to Him saying, \u201cWell, you better tell me what to say because I don\u2019t have anything to say.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAll I can remember is, I said, \u201cSon, I forgive you. My family forgives you. We\u2019d like to give you an opportunity to repent. Confess and repent. Give your life to the One it means the most to, Christ. He can change your life. He can change your attitude. He can change your ways. You are in a lot of trouble right now, but if you do that, everything else will be okay.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs soon as I said that\u2014I mean immediately\u2014my body was trembling. It was just like only Dylann and I were in the room. Nobody else was there. All I can remember is hate and anger\u2014everything that I was feeling because I was a little upset. I had this peace\u2014I mean I was so peaceful. He just took it all away.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> In that moment?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Anthony:<\/strong> In that moment\u2014that peace that passes all understanding in Christ Jesus\u2014it\u2019s real.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> It\u2019s real.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Anthony:<\/strong> I mean it\u2019s <em>real<\/em>. I preached that sermon\u2014I don\u2019t know how many times. I preached about forgiveness\u2014I don\u2019t know how many times. I thought we had it\u2014but we didn\u2019t have it. But I had it that day. I know what it feels like. I felt it. I still have it today. I still feel it today and that peace enables me to move forward in my life\u2014enables my children to move forward. It enabled the Charleston community to move forward. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJust the act of forgiveness\u2014it brought our city together.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Studio]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Let me step in here. We\u2019ve been listening to Kim Anthony\u2019s podcast, <em>Unfavorable Odds<\/em>, a conversation she had with Anthony Thompson, a pastor in Charleston, South Carolina, whose wife, Myra, was one of the shooting victims in the Charleston shooting back in 2015.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou put yourself in Pastor Thompson\u2019s place and think, could I get that, the peace that passes understanding, that kind of forgiveness? What would it take for a heart to be set free from the anger, the injustice? What you would undoubtedly feel if you lost a loved one in a shooting like that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s truly supernatural. As you listen to his story even as he said, he fell down crying, when he realized his wife was gone. You could imagine being in the same place. Yet, sensing God saying, get up and you preached on this, now it\u2019s time to live it. In some ways, wow, I can\u2019t imagine it happening that quickly in that moment. Yet God gave him the peace he just talked about. Everybody wants that peace, and we look for it everywhere, yet I think He just led us to where it comes from.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think we all wonder will we have that? Will I respond? I\u2019m imagining that a lot of people would respond in total anger. To see the supernatural presence of God overtake him was pretty miraculous and wonderful.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>One of the things I\u2019ve learned over the years is that we can look at those situations and go, boy, I don\u2019t know if I would be able to respond with that grace. The reality is until you are in the moment God doesn\u2019t give you that grace, but in the moment that grace is available. Now we don\u2019t always appropriate it. But God meets us in that moment with the grace to do things that outside the moment we\u2019d go I don\u2019t think I would do that, but in the moment the grace is available for you to respond that way.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re going to hear another excerpt from this, because I think this entire conversation is worth listening to. You can go to our website, <em>FamilyLifeToday.com<\/em> and download this episode of <em>Unfavorable Odds<\/em>. We\u2019ve got a link there, if you\u2019d like to hear the whole conversation. But Kim talked with Pastor Thompson about the impact this shooting has had on the Charleston community and on the relationships in Charleston across racial lines. This is one of those situations where God has done something remarkable out of a tragedy in that community. Pastor Thompson in the interview recalled one of the times he saw at God work healing wounds and divisions in his city.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Recording]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Anthony: <\/strong>I spoke at a predominately white aristocratic church in Mount Pleasant which is about, maybe, three and a half miles as you go across the bridge at Charleston and you\u2019re there. After I got through, one lady about my age, a white female\u2014she had two boys with her\u2014she said \u201cReverend Thompson, I used to be a racist but when I heard about you forgiving this young man and about the other people forgiving him,\u201d she said, \u201cI repented of racism.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Wow!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Anthony:<\/strong> Yes, so that\u2019s what forgiveness is doing, things like that. When she said that, I told everybody, \u201cYou know what? We need to give this lady a hand. We need to give God some praise.\u201d We praised God that night. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe said, it\u2019s because of a change of heart. She was taught it and she was afraid to even let people know that she was against it\u2014you know peer pressure, job pressure, or status in life\u2014but when she heard about the forgiveness, that\u2019s when she had the courage to do it. She had her two little boys there and she said she wanted them to be there so they could hear that, too. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ve had people to come up with all kind of stories about hitting their mother\u2014and it\u2019s always somebody in the family. It\u2019s not like a <em>friend<\/em> hitting the mother\u2014or haven\u2019t talked to their sister in twelve years and after they hear what God\u2019s telling them, they ask me \u201cHow do you do it?\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> How do you do it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Anthony:<\/strong> \u2014because, yes, they want to do it. I\u2019ve had someone touch base with me after they\u2019ve done it and express the joy that they feel. Those are my rewards. This is what makes me feel better. Forgiveness is really\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> \u2014powerful.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> It is incredible that so many people are embracing forgiveness because of what you and the others did in light of what happened. Yet you have received some pushback as well. There were some people who were complaining about the fact that you all chose to forgive so soon. What were some of the excuses they were giving for you to not forgive?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Anthony:<\/strong> Well, they said forgiving him was like a cop-out because I must be experiencing slavery mentality. I was like \u201cReally?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI explained to them, I said, \u201cNow, I want you to hear me very clearly. You\u2019re talking about slavery. Well, I\u2019m not a slave, so no way in the world I could be experiencing that. I didn\u2019t forgive Dylann thinking he\u2019s going to do me some harm. He can\u2019t do me any harm because he\u2019s in jail.\u201d That one just went out the window.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSome people said I forgave him, and my forgiveness means that I didn\u2019t want him to be punished. I said, \u201cWell, I went to court for two months to make sure that he got punished. He spending nine life sentences, I mean death sentences, and also more for life imprisonment.\u201d I said so he\u2019s being punished, so forgiveness has nothing to do with him not being punished. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, you see a lot of people have the wrong interpretation. That\u2019s why I wrote that book because they needed to know.From speaking and talking across the United States and getting these negative attitudes towards forgiveness, that\u2019s when I realized they needed to know what biblical forgiveness is compared to secular forgiveness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s one reason why I wrote the book because people have it mixed up. They think that you\u2019re taking the person off the hook when actually I\u2019m taking myself off the hook. Forgiveness is for me, not the offender. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> I did not grow up learning about forgiveness. It was always payback. It wasn\u2019t until I came to know Christ that I learned about biblical forgiveness. Will you explain what biblical forgiveness is? What do you say to that person who wants to forgive but they\u2019re having a really hard time doing so? How do they go about forgiving?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Anthony<\/strong>: Okay. When we forgive, it means you\u2019re allowing God to be the judge not yourself, because only God can judge somebody\u2019s heart. This is why you have to look at that person. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFirst of all, you look at yourself. You look at yourself and who you are in the eyes of the Lord. In the eyes of God, we\u2019re what? All sinners. We may have committed different sins, but we\u2019re all sinners. That\u2019s what I looked at when I saw Dylann. I saw him as a sinner in God\u2019s eyes and I saw myself as a sinner in God\u2019s eyes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf God forgave me, why can\u2019t I forgive Dylann? <em>That\u2019s<\/em> biblical forgiveness. 1 John says, \u201cIf we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.\u201d But He also says if you don\u2019t forgive men their trespasses, then He can\u2019t forgive you yours. So, there it is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI tell people who can\u2019t forgive\u2014you know just like you were at that point and I was at that point years ago myself\u2014many years ago\u2014first of all, you\u2019ve got to give your life to Christ. He\u2019s the one who died on the cross to save you from your sins. That\u2019s another thing a lot of people don\u2019t want to do. Some people who don\u2019t believe in God\u2014but you have to believe in Him to get this forgiveness because you can\u2019t forgive yourself. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tChrist died on the cross. He saved you from your sins, so you\u2019ve got to go to Him. You\u2019ve got to go to Him, ask Him to forgive you. Then you have to ask Him to help you to forgive the person you can\u2019t forgive\u2014because you\u2019re not going to be able to do it on your own. I didn\u2019t do it on my own. He intervened. I had no power. He set me up, so to speak.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> When we choose not to forgive the people who have offended us, we think that we\u2019re harming them in some way\u2014we\u2019re getting the payback\u2014but the truth is we are allowing them to control us from afar.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Anthony:<\/strong> Yes; yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> And as you said, so many people are stuck in that place of unforgiveness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Anthony:<\/strong> They are. They are\u2014and that\u2019s one thing they don\u2019t realize. I\u2019m glad that God freed me because I did not want Dylann to have control of my life\u2014nor my children\u2019s life, nor this community\u2014because you reap what you sow. The Bible says that. You cannot overcome evil with evil\u2014it says you have to overcome evil with good because whatever you do, you\u2019re going to get it back and you\u2019re going to be stuck. You\u2019re going to be stuck in misery until you do it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Studio]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Again, that\u2019s the Rev. Anthony Thompson from Charleston, South Carolina talking with Kim Anthony on her podcast, <em>Unfavorable Odds<\/em> which is produced by FamilyLife. I\u2019d encourage listeners, listen to the whole conversation. One of the things Kim gets a chance to talk with Rev. Thompson about is his attempts to reach out to Dylann Root and to try to sit down with him even in prison. It\u2019s pretty remarkable. You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com to find out how you can listen to the entire conversation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I would just add as you listen to the story, again, you\u2019re reminded, I\u2019m reminded the power of forgiveness ripples. When people see people forgive, it doesn\u2019t make sense. It is the amazing grace of God at work. It impacts, I mean, that\u2019s what we just heard. It wasn\u2019t just one man, it impacted a whole church, city, country, world! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI love how they ended, talking about when you don\u2019t forgive that other person is in control of you. It\u2019s the hardest thing in the world to do but it is supernatural. If God has forgiven us He can give us power to forgive others.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>When outsiders see that forgiveness, they can\u2019t understand it. Because he would have had every right to not forgive, to stay angry. When we see that, I think people think how do I get that kind of peace in a situation that is so tragic?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>He described the prison of unforgiveness. The power of forgiveness is absolutely right. But there is another side to that and, that is as long as you harbor bitterness, anger, hatred, you are in prison.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes, we are captives.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>The other person may be free. But you are still in bondage to that. Again, I\u2019d encourage our listeners to listen to the entire conversation that Anthony Thompson had with Kim Anthony on her podcast, <em>Unfavorable Odds<\/em>. We\u2019ve got a link to the complete broadcast at FamilyLifeToday.com. They got a lot deeper into talking about the power of forgiveness in our lives and about what Anthony Thompson has done to seek reconciliation with Dylann Root. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, go to FamilyLifeToday.com to download the podcast or to subscribe to <em>Unfavorable Odds.<\/em> We also have copies of Anthony Thompson\u2019s book, <em>Called to Forgive<\/em>, in our FamilyLife Today resource center. You can order the book from us online at FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI know there are still many weeks to go before the holiday season is officially upon us. I know this season can be overwhelming with lots of activities, lots of things to do. One of the things that can make the season especially overwhelming is when we have challenging relationships with extended family members and when we are going to be together over the holidays. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHere at FamilyLife we have put together a free e-book that we\u2019re calling, <em>The Holiday Survival Guide.<\/em> Its focus is on how we can be spiritually ready for those challenging family relationships. There\u2019s insight on how to deal with conflict in your extended family or how to deal with what can sometimes are awkward family situations. Go to FamilyLIfeToday.com to download the free e-book, <em>The Holiday Survival Guide<\/em>, and we hope you find it useful during the holiday season. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope you can join us back tomorrow. Sheri Keffer is going to be with to talk about what happens when deception and betrayal enters into a marriage relationship. That was her story and she\u2019ll share that with us tomorrow. Hope you can be with us for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:27:30"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["25.17M"],"filesize_raw":["26395783"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-305452.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-305452.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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Thompson's wife was one of nine people murdered on June 17, 2015 in Charleston, South Carolina. At the bond hearing, he stood before the killer and said, \"I forgive you.\" What enabled him to say that?","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-10-22.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>What happened onJune 17<sup>th<\/sup>, 2015, is something most of us will never forget.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[News footage clips:]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cNine people killed by a young man, 21 years old.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cWhite male in his early 20s walked into the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church and began shooting.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cMr. Roof is charged with nine counts of murder and one count of possession of a weapon during the commission of the crime.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cYou hurt me. You hurt a lot of people.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cRoof showed no emotion as relatives of the victims addressed him over a video link.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cEvery fiber in my body hurts. I will never talk to her ever again. I will never hold her again but I forgive you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cYour name sir.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cAnthony Thompson. I forgive you and my family forgives you. We would like you to take this opportunity to repent. Give your life to the One who matters the most, Christ. So He can change it. He can change your ways no matter what happened to you. And, you\u2019ll be okay.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cGod have mercy on you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. We\u2019re going to revisit a sober moment in our nation\u2019s history. I think back over the last several years and the incidents of gun violence in schools and in communities. But you stop and think about what happened in Charleston, South Carolina back in 2015 in a church prayer meeting. For some reason that just, that grips me probably because of the context of the setting but also probably because of how that community responded to the shooting that took place in their community and how God has been at work in that setting.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>One of the amazing things is they responded so quickly.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>With grace, love, forgiveness. I can remember, as I\u2019m sure we all do, getting the news and putting yourself in that church, in that Bible study, and thinking how horrific it was and the anger and the justice that would just grip your heart. To hear these stories, which we are going to hear today, of how God met them in the middle of that in a powerful, powerful way.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>There are times of tragedy where you\u2019re awestruck of a community coming together and you\u2019re inspired by their ability to forgive. This is one of those circumstances.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Kim Anthony, who hosts the FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> podcast, <em>Unfavorable Odds<\/em>, which is a part of FamilyLife\u2019s Podcast Network, had the opportunity recently to talk with a pastor in Charleston. The unique thing about this pastor, Anthony Thompson, was his wife Myra was at the Bible study on the night of the shooting. She was one of the victims. We are going to hear his story and his recounting of that day, as he talked with Kim on her podcast, <em>Unfavorable Odds<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Recording]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>I want to start with the events of June 17<sup>th<\/sup>, 2015. Your wife, Myra, was excited about some things that were going on in her life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0<strong>Anthony:<\/strong> Yes. We were having a good day. She was very excited. She had this great big smile. I mean, just blooming with joy. Normally, we would walk each other to the door, say goodbye, give a kiss, \u201cLove you.\u201d That particular day for some reason I couldn\u2019t get to the door. She told me to meet her outside at the car because the rule is you don\u2019t leave the house until we say Goodbye, hug, kiss\u2014the whole nine yards\u2014but it never happened that day.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat evening, when I came home, I received a phone call from Emanuel Church saying that there was some shooting going on around the church, so I dropped the phone and I just get in my car. I got to Emanuel in about five minutes because we live in the downtown area. However, one of the police officers explained to me that they took everybody out of the church and took them to the hotel which was adjacent to the church, so I ran to the hotel trying to find her. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I got there, I saw Sister Polly Sheppard. She was one of the survivors. I saw Felicia Sanders, another survivor, and her grandchild\u2014another survivor. Felicia just looked at me and she said, \u201cAnthony, Myra\u2019s gone.\u201d Of course, I didn\u2019t accept it right away.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI ran toward the church. I got to the gate and I was about\u2014maybe\u2014five feet away from the door where the police officers were back and forth, back and forth. Somebody snatched me. It took five people to hold me down. I was determined to get in that church. I just kept explaining to them my wife was in there and I needed to get in there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI asked a lot of questions. Nobody was able to give me any answers. I was an agent for 27 years and I already knew not getting any answers that she was dead. I just fell down on the ground. I just started crying. I just wallowed, I just lost control\u2014oh boy. I just kept saying \u201cI don\u2019t know what to do.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen I heard a voice say, \u201cGet up!\u201d I thought maybe one of the first responders. I heard them a second time, so I looked around\u2014still didn\u2019t see anybody. Third time, I knew who it was. It was God. He was telling me \u201cGet up!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo I got up and He\u2019s telling me to remember the sermons I used to have in my congregation about when you lose a loved one\u2014your wife or your husband or your child\u2014and you love them more than you love God\u2014then what are you going to do? I\u2019m like \u201cNot tonight.\u201d I really didn\u2019t want to hear anything He had to say, but He just kept coming at me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe gave me a Scripture\u2014Saint Luke, 17<sup>th<\/sup> chapter. The Scripture said that things will happen in life\u2014people will do things in life to you to cause you to stumble. Woe to the one who causes you to stumble. He would rather have a millstone tied around his neck and thrown into the sea than to bother one of God\u2019s people. I\u2019m trying to figure out what that\u2019s about. Then the next verse it says, forgive. No matter how many times somebody do something to you, you forgive them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was still trying to figure out what does that have to do with me, because at that time, I had no idea who the killer was\u2014didn\u2019t know his name\u2014didn\u2019t even care about who it was because all my thoughts were about Myra.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> You are telling me\u2014I want to make sure I understand this correctly\u2014you\u2019re telling me that you\u2019re outside of the church when God is speaking to you about forgiving and you don\u2019t even know the full picture. You don\u2019t have the full picture but yet God\u2014in His love for you\u2014reaches down and prepares you for what you are about to find out, and He tells you to forgive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Anthony:<\/strong> Forgive, and I\u2019m trying to figure out why? Who I have to forgive? I really didn\u2019t want to hear what He had to say that night, but I took the Scripture and I read it and I examined it and I preached it that Sunday. Before I preached that sermon on Sunday\u201448 hours after the tragedy\u2014we had to go to a bond hearing. Of course, I was not going. My daughter\u2019s son came to me and said \u201cFather, they\u2019re having a bond hearing and you\u2019re not so sure.\u201d They said, \u201cWell, we\u2019re getting ready to go. I said, \u201cGood, because I\u2019m not going.\u201d My daughter came to me and said, \u201cWell, Father, if you don\u2019t go, I may have to go without you.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cOh boy.\u201d She\u2019s my baby girl. I wanted to be there for them\u2014I knew\u2014so I got up and I went. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI told them on the way to the bond hearing\u2014I was very adamant about them keeping their mouths closed. I said, \u201cI don\u2019t want you to say anything. We\u2019re not going to be there very long. We\u2019re going to be there for a short time.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo we went, sat down\u2014I was looking at my watch because I was ready to go. First person that speak was Nadine, whose mother was one of the victims, Ethel Lance. She told Dylann, \u201cI forgive you. The Lord have mercy on your soul.\u201d I was like, \u201cYou know that\u2019s enough.\u201d I looked at my kids and said, \u201cLet\u2019s go.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, the Lord said, \u201cGet up. I have something to say.\u201d On my way to the podium, I\u2019m talking to Him saying, \u201cWell, you better tell me what to say because I don\u2019t have anything to say.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAll I can remember is, I said, \u201cSon, I forgive you. My family forgives you. We\u2019d like to give you an opportunity to repent. Confess and repent. Give your life to the One it means the most to, Christ. He can change your life. He can change your attitude. He can change your ways. You are in a lot of trouble right now, but if you do that, everything else will be okay.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs soon as I said that\u2014I mean immediately\u2014my body was trembling. It was just like only Dylann and I were in the room. Nobody else was there. All I can remember is hate and anger\u2014everything that I was feeling because I was a little upset. I had this peace\u2014I mean I was so peaceful. He just took it all away.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> In that moment?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Anthony:<\/strong> In that moment\u2014that peace that passes all understanding in Christ Jesus\u2014it\u2019s real.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> It\u2019s real.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Anthony:<\/strong> I mean it\u2019s <em>real<\/em>. I preached that sermon\u2014I don\u2019t know how many times. I preached about forgiveness\u2014I don\u2019t know how many times. I thought we had it\u2014but we didn\u2019t have it. But I had it that day. I know what it feels like. I felt it. I still have it today. I still feel it today and that peace enables me to move forward in my life\u2014enables my children to move forward. It enabled the Charleston community to move forward. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJust the act of forgiveness\u2014it brought our city together.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Studio]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Let me step in here. We\u2019ve been listening to Kim Anthony\u2019s podcast, <em>Unfavorable Odds<\/em>, a conversation she had with Anthony Thompson, a pastor in Charleston, South Carolina, whose wife, Myra, was one of the shooting victims in the Charleston shooting back in 2015.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou put yourself in Pastor Thompson\u2019s place and think, could I get that, the peace that passes understanding, that kind of forgiveness? What would it take for a heart to be set free from the anger, the injustice? What you would undoubtedly feel if you lost a loved one in a shooting like that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s truly supernatural. As you listen to his story even as he said, he fell down crying, when he realized his wife was gone. You could imagine being in the same place. Yet, sensing God saying, get up and you preached on this, now it\u2019s time to live it. In some ways, wow, I can\u2019t imagine it happening that quickly in that moment. Yet God gave him the peace he just talked about. Everybody wants that peace, and we look for it everywhere, yet I think He just led us to where it comes from.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think we all wonder will we have that? Will I respond? I\u2019m imagining that a lot of people would respond in total anger. To see the supernatural presence of God overtake him was pretty miraculous and wonderful.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>One of the things I\u2019ve learned over the years is that we can look at those situations and go, boy, I don\u2019t know if I would be able to respond with that grace. The reality is until you are in the moment God doesn\u2019t give you that grace, but in the moment that grace is available. Now we don\u2019t always appropriate it. But God meets us in that moment with the grace to do things that outside the moment we\u2019d go I don\u2019t think I would do that, but in the moment the grace is available for you to respond that way.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re going to hear another excerpt from this, because I think this entire conversation is worth listening to. You can go to our website, <em>FamilyLifeToday.com<\/em> and download this episode of <em>Unfavorable Odds<\/em>. We\u2019ve got a link there, if you\u2019d like to hear the whole conversation. But Kim talked with Pastor Thompson about the impact this shooting has had on the Charleston community and on the relationships in Charleston across racial lines. This is one of those situations where God has done something remarkable out of a tragedy in that community. Pastor Thompson in the interview recalled one of the times he saw at God work healing wounds and divisions in his city.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Recording]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Anthony: <\/strong>I spoke at a predominately white aristocratic church in Mount Pleasant which is about, maybe, three and a half miles as you go across the bridge at Charleston and you\u2019re there. After I got through, one lady about my age, a white female\u2014she had two boys with her\u2014she said \u201cReverend Thompson, I used to be a racist but when I heard about you forgiving this young man and about the other people forgiving him,\u201d she said, \u201cI repented of racism.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Wow!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Anthony:<\/strong> Yes, so that\u2019s what forgiveness is doing, things like that. When she said that, I told everybody, \u201cYou know what? We need to give this lady a hand. We need to give God some praise.\u201d We praised God that night. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe said, it\u2019s because of a change of heart. She was taught it and she was afraid to even let people know that she was against it\u2014you know peer pressure, job pressure, or status in life\u2014but when she heard about the forgiveness, that\u2019s when she had the courage to do it. She had her two little boys there and she said she wanted them to be there so they could hear that, too. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ve had people to come up with all kind of stories about hitting their mother\u2014and it\u2019s always somebody in the family. It\u2019s not like a <em>friend<\/em> hitting the mother\u2014or haven\u2019t talked to their sister in twelve years and after they hear what God\u2019s telling them, they ask me \u201cHow do you do it?\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> How do you do it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Anthony:<\/strong> \u2014because, yes, they want to do it. I\u2019ve had someone touch base with me after they\u2019ve done it and express the joy that they feel. Those are my rewards. This is what makes me feel better. Forgiveness is really\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> \u2014powerful.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> It is incredible that so many people are embracing forgiveness because of what you and the others did in light of what happened. Yet you have received some pushback as well. There were some people who were complaining about the fact that you all chose to forgive so soon. What were some of the excuses they were giving for you to not forgive?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Anthony:<\/strong> Well, they said forgiving him was like a cop-out because I must be experiencing slavery mentality. I was like \u201cReally?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI explained to them, I said, \u201cNow, I want you to hear me very clearly. You\u2019re talking about slavery. Well, I\u2019m not a slave, so no way in the world I could be experiencing that. I didn\u2019t forgive Dylann thinking he\u2019s going to do me some harm. He can\u2019t do me any harm because he\u2019s in jail.\u201d That one just went out the window.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSome people said I forgave him, and my forgiveness means that I didn\u2019t want him to be punished. I said, \u201cWell, I went to court for two months to make sure that he got punished. He spending nine life sentences, I mean death sentences, and also more for life imprisonment.\u201d I said so he\u2019s being punished, so forgiveness has nothing to do with him not being punished. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, you see a lot of people have the wrong interpretation. That\u2019s why I wrote that book because they needed to know.From speaking and talking across the United States and getting these negative attitudes towards forgiveness, that\u2019s when I realized they needed to know what biblical forgiveness is compared to secular forgiveness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s one reason why I wrote the book because people have it mixed up. They think that you\u2019re taking the person off the hook when actually I\u2019m taking myself off the hook. Forgiveness is for me, not the offender. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> I did not grow up learning about forgiveness. It was always payback. It wasn\u2019t until I came to know Christ that I learned about biblical forgiveness. Will you explain what biblical forgiveness is? What do you say to that person who wants to forgive but they\u2019re having a really hard time doing so? How do they go about forgiving?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Anthony<\/strong>: Okay. When we forgive, it means you\u2019re allowing God to be the judge not yourself, because only God can judge somebody\u2019s heart. This is why you have to look at that person. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFirst of all, you look at yourself. You look at yourself and who you are in the eyes of the Lord. In the eyes of God, we\u2019re what? All sinners. We may have committed different sins, but we\u2019re all sinners. That\u2019s what I looked at when I saw Dylann. I saw him as a sinner in God\u2019s eyes and I saw myself as a sinner in God\u2019s eyes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf God forgave me, why can\u2019t I forgive Dylann? <em>That\u2019s<\/em> biblical forgiveness. 1 John says, \u201cIf we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.\u201d But He also says if you don\u2019t forgive men their trespasses, then He can\u2019t forgive you yours. So, there it is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI tell people who can\u2019t forgive\u2014you know just like you were at that point and I was at that point years ago myself\u2014many years ago\u2014first of all, you\u2019ve got to give your life to Christ. He\u2019s the one who died on the cross to save you from your sins. That\u2019s another thing a lot of people don\u2019t want to do. Some people who don\u2019t believe in God\u2014but you have to believe in Him to get this forgiveness because you can\u2019t forgive yourself. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tChrist died on the cross. He saved you from your sins, so you\u2019ve got to go to Him. You\u2019ve got to go to Him, ask Him to forgive you. Then you have to ask Him to help you to forgive the person you can\u2019t forgive\u2014because you\u2019re not going to be able to do it on your own. I didn\u2019t do it on my own. He intervened. I had no power. He set me up, so to speak.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> When we choose not to forgive the people who have offended us, we think that we\u2019re harming them in some way\u2014we\u2019re getting the payback\u2014but the truth is we are allowing them to control us from afar.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Anthony:<\/strong> Yes; yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> And as you said, so many people are stuck in that place of unforgiveness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Anthony:<\/strong> They are. They are\u2014and that\u2019s one thing they don\u2019t realize. I\u2019m glad that God freed me because I did not want Dylann to have control of my life\u2014nor my children\u2019s life, nor this community\u2014because you reap what you sow. The Bible says that. You cannot overcome evil with evil\u2014it says you have to overcome evil with good because whatever you do, you\u2019re going to get it back and you\u2019re going to be stuck. You\u2019re going to be stuck in misery until you do it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Studio]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Again, that\u2019s the Rev. Anthony Thompson from Charleston, South Carolina talking with Kim Anthony on her podcast, <em>Unfavorable Odds<\/em> which is produced by FamilyLife. I\u2019d encourage listeners, listen to the whole conversation. One of the things Kim gets a chance to talk with Rev. Thompson about is his attempts to reach out to Dylann Root and to try to sit down with him even in prison. It\u2019s pretty remarkable. You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com to find out how you can listen to the entire conversation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I would just add as you listen to the story, again, you\u2019re reminded, I\u2019m reminded the power of forgiveness ripples. When people see people forgive, it doesn\u2019t make sense. It is the amazing grace of God at work. It impacts, I mean, that\u2019s what we just heard. It wasn\u2019t just one man, it impacted a whole church, city, country, world! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI love how they ended, talking about when you don\u2019t forgive that other person is in control of you. It\u2019s the hardest thing in the world to do but it is supernatural. If God has forgiven us He can give us power to forgive others.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>When outsiders see that forgiveness, they can\u2019t understand it. Because he would have had every right to not forgive, to stay angry. When we see that, I think people think how do I get that kind of peace in a situation that is so tragic?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>He described the prison of unforgiveness. The power of forgiveness is absolutely right. But there is another side to that and, that is as long as you harbor bitterness, anger, hatred, you are in prison.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes, we are captives.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>The other person may be free. But you are still in bondage to that. Again, I\u2019d encourage our listeners to listen to the entire conversation that Anthony Thompson had with Kim Anthony on her podcast, <em>Unfavorable Odds<\/em>. We\u2019ve got a link to the complete broadcast at FamilyLifeToday.com. They got a lot deeper into talking about the power of forgiveness in our lives and about what Anthony Thompson has done to seek reconciliation with Dylann Root. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, go to FamilyLifeToday.com to download the podcast or to subscribe to <em>Unfavorable Odds.<\/em> We also have copies of Anthony Thompson\u2019s book, <em>Called to Forgive<\/em>, in our FamilyLife Today resource center. You can order the book from us online at FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI know there are still many weeks to go before the holiday season is officially upon us. I know this season can be overwhelming with lots of activities, lots of things to do. One of the things that can make the season especially overwhelming is when we have challenging relationships with extended family members and when we are going to be together over the holidays. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHere at FamilyLife we have put together a free e-book that we\u2019re calling, <em>The Holiday Survival Guide.<\/em> Its focus is on how we can be spiritually ready for those challenging family relationships. There\u2019s insight on how to deal with conflict in your extended family or how to deal with what can sometimes are awkward family situations. Go to FamilyLIfeToday.com to download the free e-book, <em>The Holiday Survival Guide<\/em>, and we hope you find it useful during the holiday season. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope you can join us back tomorrow. Sheri Keffer is going to be with to talk about what happens when deception and betrayal enters into a marriage relationship. That was her story and she\u2019ll share that with us tomorrow. Hope you can be with us for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/305452","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=305452"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=305452"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=305452"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=305452"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=305452"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=305452"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=305452"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}