{"id":305404,"date":"2019-10-04T16:00:56","date_gmt":"2019-10-04T20:00:56","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/loving-our-gay-friends-and-neighbors\/"},"modified":"2019-10-04T16:00:56","modified_gmt":"2019-10-04T20:00:56","slug":"loving-our-gay-friends-and-neighbors","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/loving-our-gay-friends-and-neighbors\/","title":{"rendered":"Loving Our Gay Friends and Neighbors"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>guest: Caleb Kaltenbach | Series: Messy Grace | When Caleb Kaltenbach told his mom and dad-who had divorced when he was 2 because they discovered they were each gay-of his desire to attend Bible college, they weren&#8217;t happy about it. Now a pastor, Caleb recalls the first time his mother came to hear one of his sermons when he was a young pastoral intern, much to the angst of the elders. Caleb shares how his parents eventually embraced Christ.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Pastor Caleb Kaltenbach recalls the first time his gay mother came to hear one of his sermons when he was a young pastoral intern, much to the angst of the elders.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-07-04.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:26","filesize":"25.13M","filesize_raw":"26346615","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2906,2896,2821],"tags":[4133,4033,4438,4129],"podcast_series":[7227],"cwp_profile":[3449],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-305404","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-becoming-a-christian","category-lgbt","category-reaching-out","tag-coming-to-christ","tag-divorce","tag-gay-community","tag-homosexuality","podcast_series-messy-grace","cwp_profile-caleb-kaltenbach","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/305404\/loving-our-gay-friends-and-neighbors","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/305404\/loving-our-gay-friends-and-neighbors","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"8Z837fCJ9F\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/loving-our-gay-friends-and-neighbors\/\">Loving Our Gay Friends and Neighbors<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/loving-our-gay-friends-and-neighbors\/embed\/#?secret=8Z837fCJ9F\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Loving Our Gay Friends and Neighbors&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"8Z837fCJ9F\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-07-04.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-07-04.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>But their view did soften over time, because one of them helped you get a loan; didn\u2019t they?\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Yes; my dad eventually\u2014because he saw that I was not backing down. It\u2019s part of my German stubbornness, I think\u2014we don\u2019t back down too easily. I said, \u201cThis is what I\u2019m doing, with or without my family, because I feel like God\u2019s call is that strong.\u201d\n\n<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\nI said, \u201cI\u2019m going forward with this.\u201d\u00a0 My dad eventually helped me to get my first loan\u2014that\u2019s what they did for me. I spent my weekends preaching in small, country churches to earn money for college; washed dishes in the cafeteria; did everything I could; but I really cut my teeth in Bible college by preaching at a lot of small, country churches.\n\n<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>How did they handle your background, or did you keep it a secret from them?\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>No; because I wanted people to know what they were getting into. I remember the first church I ever preached in was in Kansas\u2014small town. We had six people in the church\u2014the youngest one was 60. They wanted to start a youth group\u2014it was going to be a youth group of 40-year-olds. [Laughter]\u00a0 I told them about my background, and they didn\u2019t like that too much.\n\nThe second church I was at\u2014I was there for about 18 months. It was in Missouri, and I was near a town called Nevada\u2014[first \u201ca\u201d is long]. It should be called Nevada\u2014[same pronunciation as the state]\u2014but everybody called it Nevada [long \u201ca\u201d] in Missouri. It was near Fort Scott, Kansas. I preached there for 18 months.\n\n<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\nTwenty-five people in the church \/ fifty people in the town\u2014we were the largest church, per capita, in the world at the time, at best.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes; right.\n\n<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Right.\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>I kind of eased into the conversation about my parents, then; but there was one Sunday that was very, very profound to them. I kept on asking my mom to come to church with me to hear me preach. I was only, I think, at that time, a junior or a sophomore in college. I\u2019d only had one preaching class at my Bible college, and I just really\u2014that\u2019s how I learned how to preach.\n\nMy mom finally came with me. She wouldn\u2019t come back the next Sunday; but it was a good thing because I got there\u2014and there were two elders waiting for me on the front doorstep\u2014they said, \u201cCaleb, we\u2019d like to talk to you.\u201d\u00a0 They took me to the back room\u2014there were really only two rooms \/ there was a front room, and there was a back room. They looked at me; and they said, \u201cIf you want to keep preaching here, don\u2019t you ever bring somebody like your mother again.\u201d\n\nI was <em>floored<\/em>. I said, \u201cExcuse you?\u201d\u00a0 They basically said: \u201cWe don\u2019t like those kinds of people. They make us feel uncomfortable.\n\n<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\n\u201cWe are <em>not<\/em> a church that feels comfortable with these people.\u201d\u00a0 So, I said, \u201cI quit!\u201d\u00a0 They said: \u201cWell, you can\u2019t quit today. You need to preach.\u201d\u00a0 I said: \u201cNo, no, no, no. Out of all the things you want me to do today, preaching should not be one of them\u2014trust me.\u201d\u00a0 \u201cNo; we need you to preach.\u201d\n\nI ripped up my sermon, and I preached an evangelistic message. I walked out; I got in my car; and I drove away. I said, \u201cLord, if You ever give me the chance to be able to lead a church\u2014steward it with that opportunity\u2014I want a church that is filled with people who are broken, because that\u2019s what the church is.\u201d The church is really a beautiful mosaic of broken lives that God has united together to glorify Himself. Jesus did not die on the cross for a little members-only country club that\u2019s really a Pharisee factory\u2014that\u2019s not what He did!\u00a0 He died on the cross for broken people, because only God can put broken people back together.\n\n<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I have to wonder, Caleb, what the homosexual community thinks about you when they hear these stories.\n\n<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\nObviously, they are going to give you more \u201cgrace\u201d \/ more freedom to speak. But does this gain you favor with them?\u2014that you are speaking of them as they ought to be spoken of\u2014people who are made in the image of God?\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>I think it does. I try to go a little bit further than that to help Christians to understand the LGBT community. I think there\u2019s always going to be a line with me and the LGBT community; because, at the end of the day, I believe God\u2019s Word is true. I believe in the covenant of marriage\u2014that is always going to be there, so that\u2019s the line that will never be crossed.\n\nBut I think there is a respect there. I\u2019ve been told by several people in the community that my book has a very gracious tone to it, and they appreciate that. I think they can\u2019t argue with the experience, but I try to get a lot of Christians to understand the LGBT community. I think there are some in the LGBT community that really appreciate this, because I remember a conversation I had with my mom one time.\n\n<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\nMy mom\u2014I don\u2019t know how we got in this conversation\u2014but she said, \u201cYou know, Caleb, in the last several years in my relationship with Vera, we were not intimate at all.\u201d\n\nYou know, first of all, gross!\u00a0 I mean, I don\u2019t want to hear that from my mom; but I <em>immediately<\/em> looked at her and I said: \u201cSo, you\u2019re not a lesbian anymore. You haven\u2019t been intimate for years.\u201d\u00a0 And she said: \u201cWell, sure I am!\u00a0 Those are my people. I have relationships there. I\u2019m part of a community. I\u2019m part of a cause and a movement. I have grace there.\u201d\u00a0 I said, \u201cWell, Mom, you just described the church.\u201d\u00a0 And she said: \u201cNo, I didn\u2019t. Why would I go somewhere that would make me feel less about myself?\u201d\n\nIt really dawned on me that, for my mom\u2014she never identified as a lesbian or with the LGBT community because of who she wanted to be intimate with. I mean, even in the ever-growing acronym of the LGBTQQIIAA\u2014I think the last \u201cA\u201d now stands for ally, where you can identify with the LGBT community and still be straight at the same time\u2014\n\n<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014because I think the primary thing there for a lot of people is no longer: \u201cThis is whom I want to have sex with,\u201d\u2014now, it is: \u201cWho are the people that I identify with?\u201d\u00a0 It really <em>has<\/em> become more of a philosophy and an ideology.\n\nHere\u2019s where a lot of Christians will misstep\u2014I want to be careful not to say, \u201cmistake,\u201d\u2014 but they will do things out of order. Somebody named Joe will meet somebody in their workplace, who identifies as LGBT\u2014like a gay a man. Joe becomes his friend. Joe thinks that, you know, he has to, at some point, let him know about Leviticus, and Genesis 19, and Ephesians 5, and Romans 1\u2014and we\u2019ll throw in 1 Corinthians 6\u2014which, I believe all those chapters, completely \/ I believe them, word for word\u2014I believe they are true.\n\nBut without building a relationship and getting to know him, all of a sudden, he will throw all these verses at this man. This gay man over here, who thought he was getting a new friend, now, realized he has been treated like a project; and he walks away, rejecting everything \/ feeling wounded. Joe walks away, feeling like some kind of accomplished martyr; but really, what Joe has done is\u2014\n\n<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014he has pushed this man further away from God.\n\n<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Here is the other thing\u2014Joe is telling him, \u201cHey, do not define yourself by your sexual orientation.\u201d\u00a0 But when Joe thinks, \u201cHey, the most important thing I\u2019ve got to address first is \u2018Who you want to be intimate with?\u2019\u201d\u2014you have just reduced them down to their sexual orientation. The irony is\u2014you have done to them what you\u2019ve asked them not to do to themselves.\n\nI think that, as we get to know people\u2014no matter who they are \/ no matter what kind of life choice they might be in\u2014when we get to know them\u2014and I believe that God gives opportunity for us to have difficult conversations in the context of trust and relationship\u2014I really believe that. I believe that, if we think deeper about LGBT community \/ if we think deeper about this\u2014to where, for them, it is an identity\u2014and we say: \u201cOkay; instead of trying to fix you\u2014I\u2019ll leave that up to God\u2014I\u2019ll point you to the cross, and tell you the truth; but I\u2019m going to help you identify with Jesus, first and foremost.\u201d\n\n<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\nHe\u2019s pretty good at life change.\n\n<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And you are going to offer a community to them.\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Absolutely; because we have to bring them over to our community, because nobody is going to leave one community if they don\u2019t feel like another community is safe.\n\n<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes; it truly is an alternative lifestyle that is worth it though.\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Yes; it is.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>When you brought your mom to church and she heard you preach, what was the conversation like after that on the way home?\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>She was very affirming. My mom has always been affirming of me\u2014she\u2019s always been a big fan of me. So\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u201cYou\u2019re a good speaker.\u201d\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Yes; \u201cYou\u2019re a good speaker.\u201d\u00a0 I think she looks at me as some kind of civil rights leader or something like that; you know?\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You\u2019ve got good things to say \/ you\u2019re calling people to justice\u2014that kind of thing?\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Absolutely.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>There did come a time, though, where she started to soften to the message that you were preaching; right?\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Yes; well, actually, there were two times. The first time was when I eventually graduated from Bible college.\n\n<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\nI moved to Southern California; I lived out there for 11 years and worked at a church called Shepherd Church \/ Shepherd of the Hill Church. She came out, and she visited our multi-site campus one Sunday.\n\nWhen she heard the message, afterwards\u2014it was funny\u2014we were driving down [Hwy.] 101. We were almost\u2014both of us a fatality; because she said, \u201cI think I might be closer to accepting Christ.\u201d\u00a0 When she said that, I just\u2014I don\u2019t know what happened\u2014I just lost control of the steering wheel. We went into the other lane. People started honking. I led my mom to cuss, at that point, by accident because she was afraid; but it was just such a unique experience. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nThat was not the point that she accepted Christ; but she was softening, and she was getting to the point at that juncture in her life.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, what was the second time?\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>I got married in 2004\u2014a beautiful Latina woman\u2014she is this <em>gorgeous<\/em> lady. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\nFinally, I wanted to preach after 11 years. We moved to Dallas, Texas, to go pastor a church. When we moved there, both of my parents, separately of one another, moved there to be closer to our family. I had never really lived in like a five-mile radius of my parents since I was two; but then, my parents floored me when they said, \u201cCan we start attending your church?\u201d\n\n<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>independent of each other.\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Yes; independent!\u00a0 They both started attending my church, and it was <em>fascinating<\/em>. What was even more annoying is that my church treated them better than I did\u2014they <em>loved<\/em> my parents. This was a catalyst for my parents to come closer to Jesus, because they finally were around a group of people that treated them like people and not like evangelistic projects\u2014it was <em>huge<\/em>.\n\nSo, then\u2014\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I want to stop there because we had Rosaria Butterfield on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, and she instructed our listeners, as well as Bob and me, how important hospitality is to the homosexual community.\n\n<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\nThat sounds like what happened in your church in Dallas\u2014how they invited your mom and dad into community and into their homes to be able to relate to them and get to know them.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Absolutely, and I think that we should do that with everybody, period, in our churches. I mean, if you invite somebody over to your house, you know what? You\u2019re going to treat them like a guest\u2014you\u2019re going to extend hospitality to them. At our church, every Sunday, we\u2019re always expecting guests from all walks of life; and we have people from all walks of life.\n\nYou know, not everybody at my church in Dallas was excited about it, but there were quite a few who were; so, the summer of 2013, we had an opportunity to move back to Simi Valley\u2014it was my wife\u2019s hometown; she loves it there; we have a lot of friends there. We love Southern California. My wife loves Disneyland\u2014<em>loves<\/em> Disneyland. So, we moved back.\n\nTwo weeks before we moved back, both my parents gave their lives to the Lord\u2014both of them\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014independent of one another?\n\n<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>\u2014independent of one another.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You\u2019ve got to share how that happened. I mean, there is too much of a drama here and too much of a history\u2014not to just say: \u201cHere\u2019s what my mom did,\u201d \u201cHere\u2019s what my dad did.\u201d\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I remember talking with my mom; and she had been in a hospital, because she was having some health issues. She had been praying with a lot of people. She said, \u201cCaleb, I believe that I\u2019m a Christian.\u201d\u00a0 We talked about it, and I talked to her about what she believed. I really believe, with all my heart, that she was and that she still is a Christian.\n\nNow, does she believe everything that I believe, theologically?\u00a0 No; she doesn\u2019t. Does she believe the fundamentals\u2014the orthodoxy?\u00a0 Yes; she does. Is she still working out her salvation with fear and trembling \/ the sanctification process?\u2014<em>absolutely<\/em>. God is working that in her. There is a lot of emotional hurt and pain, throughout the years, that she has to tread through; but I truly believe that she is saved.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I think you raise an important point, which is:\n\n<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\n\u201cWhen somebody comes to faith, and when they do affirm the essentials of the faith, they come in with a background \/ with a story\u2014with a lot of things that may have to get worked through. We need to be patient, and let people process, and let them learn from the Word of God \/ by the Spirit of God things that it may have taken us a while to learn.\u201d\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>I tell our congregation all the time\u2014and actually, I had a meeting with different leaders the weekend before my book released, <em>Messy Grace<\/em>. I remember in this meeting, I told our volunteers, and our leaders, and our staff, and our elder team the same thing that I say on Sunday morning\u2014I said: \u201cHey, at this church, we give people margin in their lives to experience God. We don\u2019t expect people to automatically get their act together when they start attending after the third week, or the fourth week, or the fifth week.\n\n\u201cWe need to give that margin, not only for them, but also for God; because here\u2019s the deal\u2014salvation is instantaneous; but usually, it\u2019s a process for people to get to that point; and sanctification is a process\u2014\n\n<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cof God tearing down our prideful walls and making us more into His image. So, we give God margin to work His process.\u201d\n\nIt\u2019s not that we don\u2019t have tough conversations; it\u2019s not that we don\u2019t do church discipline when that has to be done; but there\u2019s\u2014everybody in our church is taking their next step with Jesus somewhere.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>What about your dad?\u00a0 What was his story?\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>I was over at his house\u2014his apartment, actually\u2014and I remember I was helping him sort through some books. Unfortunately, now, my dad has Alzheimer\u2019s. He actually lives closer with us in Simi Valley; but back then, Alzheimer\u2019s was setting in, but I hadn\u2019t seen it yet. My dad has always been a little disorganized, but I was helping sort through some books.\n\nAs we were just sitting there, talking and sorting through books, my dad said: \u201cCaleb, I know I would go to church every now and then\u201d\u2014at the Episcopal Church\u2014\u201cbut more than ever, now, I think I see that Jesus really does love me.\n\n<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\n\u201cI just feel that I have a different relationship with Him. I honestly believe that I believe in Him, and my whole relationship is at another level. I really believe that I\u2019m saved.\u201d\n\nI remember <em>hearing<\/em> that from my dad, again, and thinking to myself, \u201cYou\u2019ve got to be kidding me!\u201d I mean, this is the guy that <em>grounded<\/em> me when I got baptized \/ that kicked me out of the house. This is the guy that made fun of me for believing in Christianity because it was illogical\u2014it was not rational; it did not fit his materialistic\/physical-focused worldview\u2014and now, completely shift.\n\nHere is a big lesson I learned from that, guys. I learned that people base so much of their view of who God is and who Jesus is off how we treat them. I learned that because, when my parents were around people who treated them like people and not like projects\u2014\n\n<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014and really lived out what Jesus says in Matthew 5:46\u2014and actually, 43-48\u2014and what Jesus said in Luke 6:35, when He says: \u201cHey, love your enemies. Do good. Lend to them, because God is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful as your heavenly Father is merciful.\u201d\n\nYou know, I\u2019m thinking about that. It\u2019s in those moments\u2014when people experience God working through <em>us<\/em>\u2014they see maybe Jesus is different. If I\u2019m going to be honest\u2014when I was sitting in that Bible study in high school, and sitting around and engaging, and when they really knew that I was not saved, their tone changed with me. When their tone changed with me, they became more caring; and when they became more caring and treated me differently, something happened in my heart\u2014something happened.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Can I just read the verses that you referenced?\u2014Matthew, Chapter 5, starting in verse 43\u2014\n\n<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014Jesus says: \u201cYou have heard it was said, \u2018You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.\u2019\u00a0 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He makes His sun to rise on the evil and on the good; sends the rain on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?\u00a0 Do not even the tax collectors do the same?\u00a0 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others?\u00a0 Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.\u201d\n\nThat\u2019s strong stuff for all of us to hear, but that\u2019s what God\u2019s calling us to; isn\u2019t it?\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Especially when you think of the first century\u2014that Jesus was probably referring to Roman soldiers when He said, \u201cLove your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,\u201d\u2014\n\n<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014\u201cLove the people who have killed your family. Love the people who have killed your brother, and love the occupying force.\u201d\u00a0 We have trouble loving other politicians in this country.\n\n<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Caleb, we\u2019re going to come back after Bob tells listeners how they can get a copy of the book, but here is your assignment\u2014I\u2019m going to ask you to seat your mom and your dad across the table from you and to fulfil the Fifth Commandment. I\u2019m going to ask you to honor and speak a tribute to both of them for what they did do right. Are you willing to do that?\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Absolutely, because they did do a lot right.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Let me just mention that the book that you\u2019ve written, Caleb, is called <em>Messy Grace<\/em>. It tells your story of growing up in the family you grew up in and how you <em>Learned to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction<\/em>\u2014that\u2019s the subtitle of the book. I think it\u2019s a helpful book for all of us. You can go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to order a copy. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com.\n\nDennis\u2014\n\n<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, Caleb, you\u2019ve had a few minutes to think about addressing your mom and your dad and giving them both a tribute.\n\n<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\nSpeak to them both, if you would please, in the first person.\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>\n\nMom and Dad, I would not be who I am without you. You\u2019ve instilled in me a sense of justice \/ a pursuit of those who are different and not like me. You\u2019ve instilled in me a love of academics, education, logical thinking. You\u2019ve instilled in me <em>love<\/em>. Even through the tough moments, there was never a moment when I ever doubted that you loved me. Even through the tough moments of moving from house to house, I never doubted for a second that you loved me. I know that you love me, still, to this day.\n\nI know that God, in His sovereignty, allowed all of this to happen; and I know that this can be the best season of all three of our lives if we trust God in whatever season that we are in.\n\n<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nI want you to know that, despite what you may feel that you have done wrong or I have, I\u2019m extremely proud \/ enormously proud to be your son.\n\nI also want you to know that for any pain, throughout the years, that I may have caused you, especially in my religious fervor when I first came to Christ, I apologize for that. As I process through the emotions of learning what it is to follow Christ, and trying to love you, and walking this delicate balance between grace and truth and this tension, I\u2019m sorry if you ever got hurt. I\u2019m sorry for the times that I didn\u2019t know how to handle my emotions correctly, because I am not a perfect person; but I know that Satan meant to disrupt and destroy our lives \/ God allowed it to happen to save lives.\n\n<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\nI truly believe that through both of your lives\u2014even though both of them were painful, even from childhood to now\u2014I truly believe that God is using your lives and this story\u2014which is not just mine \/ it\u2019s yours\u2014to help people for such a time as this because people need help. With the suicide rate of gay teenagers rising, parents need to know how to love; teenagers need to know truth. You have become a clay pot that God is using and shining light on.\n\nThank you for being you and loving me. I love you so much.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> of Little Rock, Arkansas;\n\nA Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2018 FamilyLife. 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Caleb Kaltenbach recalls the first time his gay mother came to hear one of his sermons when he was a young pastoral intern, much to the angst of the elders.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-07-04.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>But their view did soften over time, because one of them helped you get a loan; didn\u2019t they?\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Yes; my dad eventually\u2014because he saw that I was not backing down. It\u2019s part of my German stubbornness, I think\u2014we don\u2019t back down too easily. I said, \u201cThis is what I\u2019m doing, with or without my family, because I feel like God\u2019s call is that strong.\u201d\n\n<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\nI said, \u201cI\u2019m going forward with this.\u201d\u00a0 My dad eventually helped me to get my first loan\u2014that\u2019s what they did for me. I spent my weekends preaching in small, country churches to earn money for college; washed dishes in the cafeteria; did everything I could; but I really cut my teeth in Bible college by preaching at a lot of small, country churches.\n\n<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>How did they handle your background, or did you keep it a secret from them?\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>No; because I wanted people to know what they were getting into. I remember the first church I ever preached in was in Kansas\u2014small town. We had six people in the church\u2014the youngest one was 60. They wanted to start a youth group\u2014it was going to be a youth group of 40-year-olds. [Laughter]\u00a0 I told them about my background, and they didn\u2019t like that too much.\n\nThe second church I was at\u2014I was there for about 18 months. It was in Missouri, and I was near a town called Nevada\u2014[first \u201ca\u201d is long]. It should be called Nevada\u2014[same pronunciation as the state]\u2014but everybody called it Nevada [long \u201ca\u201d] in Missouri. It was near Fort Scott, Kansas. I preached there for 18 months.\n\n<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\nTwenty-five people in the church \/ fifty people in the town\u2014we were the largest church, per capita, in the world at the time, at best.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes; right.\n\n<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Right.\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>I kind of eased into the conversation about my parents, then; but there was one Sunday that was very, very profound to them. I kept on asking my mom to come to church with me to hear me preach. I was only, I think, at that time, a junior or a sophomore in college. I\u2019d only had one preaching class at my Bible college, and I just really\u2014that\u2019s how I learned how to preach.\n\nMy mom finally came with me. She wouldn\u2019t come back the next Sunday; but it was a good thing because I got there\u2014and there were two elders waiting for me on the front doorstep\u2014they said, \u201cCaleb, we\u2019d like to talk to you.\u201d\u00a0 They took me to the back room\u2014there were really only two rooms \/ there was a front room, and there was a back room. They looked at me; and they said, \u201cIf you want to keep preaching here, don\u2019t you ever bring somebody like your mother again.\u201d\n\nI was <em>floored<\/em>. I said, \u201cExcuse you?\u201d\u00a0 They basically said: \u201cWe don\u2019t like those kinds of people. They make us feel uncomfortable.\n\n<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\n\u201cWe are <em>not<\/em> a church that feels comfortable with these people.\u201d\u00a0 So, I said, \u201cI quit!\u201d\u00a0 They said: \u201cWell, you can\u2019t quit today. You need to preach.\u201d\u00a0 I said: \u201cNo, no, no, no. Out of all the things you want me to do today, preaching should not be one of them\u2014trust me.\u201d\u00a0 \u201cNo; we need you to preach.\u201d\n\nI ripped up my sermon, and I preached an evangelistic message. I walked out; I got in my car; and I drove away. I said, \u201cLord, if You ever give me the chance to be able to lead a church\u2014steward it with that opportunity\u2014I want a church that is filled with people who are broken, because that\u2019s what the church is.\u201d The church is really a beautiful mosaic of broken lives that God has united together to glorify Himself. Jesus did not die on the cross for a little members-only country club that\u2019s really a Pharisee factory\u2014that\u2019s not what He did!\u00a0 He died on the cross for broken people, because only God can put broken people back together.\n\n<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I have to wonder, Caleb, what the homosexual community thinks about you when they hear these stories.\n\n<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\nObviously, they are going to give you more \u201cgrace\u201d \/ more freedom to speak. But does this gain you favor with them?\u2014that you are speaking of them as they ought to be spoken of\u2014people who are made in the image of God?\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>I think it does. I try to go a little bit further than that to help Christians to understand the LGBT community. I think there\u2019s always going to be a line with me and the LGBT community; because, at the end of the day, I believe God\u2019s Word is true. I believe in the covenant of marriage\u2014that is always going to be there, so that\u2019s the line that will never be crossed.\n\nBut I think there is a respect there. I\u2019ve been told by several people in the community that my book has a very gracious tone to it, and they appreciate that. I think they can\u2019t argue with the experience, but I try to get a lot of Christians to understand the LGBT community. I think there are some in the LGBT community that really appreciate this, because I remember a conversation I had with my mom one time.\n\n<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\nMy mom\u2014I don\u2019t know how we got in this conversation\u2014but she said, \u201cYou know, Caleb, in the last several years in my relationship with Vera, we were not intimate at all.\u201d\n\nYou know, first of all, gross!\u00a0 I mean, I don\u2019t want to hear that from my mom; but I <em>immediately<\/em> looked at her and I said: \u201cSo, you\u2019re not a lesbian anymore. You haven\u2019t been intimate for years.\u201d\u00a0 And she said: \u201cWell, sure I am!\u00a0 Those are my people. I have relationships there. I\u2019m part of a community. I\u2019m part of a cause and a movement. I have grace there.\u201d\u00a0 I said, \u201cWell, Mom, you just described the church.\u201d\u00a0 And she said: \u201cNo, I didn\u2019t. Why would I go somewhere that would make me feel less about myself?\u201d\n\nIt really dawned on me that, for my mom\u2014she never identified as a lesbian or with the LGBT community because of who she wanted to be intimate with. I mean, even in the ever-growing acronym of the LGBTQQIIAA\u2014I think the last \u201cA\u201d now stands for ally, where you can identify with the LGBT community and still be straight at the same time\u2014\n\n<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014because I think the primary thing there for a lot of people is no longer: \u201cThis is whom I want to have sex with,\u201d\u2014now, it is: \u201cWho are the people that I identify with?\u201d\u00a0 It really <em>has<\/em> become more of a philosophy and an ideology.\n\nHere\u2019s where a lot of Christians will misstep\u2014I want to be careful not to say, \u201cmistake,\u201d\u2014 but they will do things out of order. Somebody named Joe will meet somebody in their workplace, who identifies as LGBT\u2014like a gay a man. Joe becomes his friend. Joe thinks that, you know, he has to, at some point, let him know about Leviticus, and Genesis 19, and Ephesians 5, and Romans 1\u2014and we\u2019ll throw in 1 Corinthians 6\u2014which, I believe all those chapters, completely \/ I believe them, word for word\u2014I believe they are true.\n\nBut without building a relationship and getting to know him, all of a sudden, he will throw all these verses at this man. This gay man over here, who thought he was getting a new friend, now, realized he has been treated like a project; and he walks away, rejecting everything \/ feeling wounded. Joe walks away, feeling like some kind of accomplished martyr; but really, what Joe has done is\u2014\n\n<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014he has pushed this man further away from God.\n\n<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Here is the other thing\u2014Joe is telling him, \u201cHey, do not define yourself by your sexual orientation.\u201d\u00a0 But when Joe thinks, \u201cHey, the most important thing I\u2019ve got to address first is \u2018Who you want to be intimate with?\u2019\u201d\u2014you have just reduced them down to their sexual orientation. The irony is\u2014you have done to them what you\u2019ve asked them not to do to themselves.\n\nI think that, as we get to know people\u2014no matter who they are \/ no matter what kind of life choice they might be in\u2014when we get to know them\u2014and I believe that God gives opportunity for us to have difficult conversations in the context of trust and relationship\u2014I really believe that. I believe that, if we think deeper about LGBT community \/ if we think deeper about this\u2014to where, for them, it is an identity\u2014and we say: \u201cOkay; instead of trying to fix you\u2014I\u2019ll leave that up to God\u2014I\u2019ll point you to the cross, and tell you the truth; but I\u2019m going to help you identify with Jesus, first and foremost.\u201d\n\n<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\nHe\u2019s pretty good at life change.\n\n<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And you are going to offer a community to them.\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Absolutely; because we have to bring them over to our community, because nobody is going to leave one community if they don\u2019t feel like another community is safe.\n\n<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes; it truly is an alternative lifestyle that is worth it though.\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Yes; it is.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>When you brought your mom to church and she heard you preach, what was the conversation like after that on the way home?\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>She was very affirming. My mom has always been affirming of me\u2014she\u2019s always been a big fan of me. So\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u201cYou\u2019re a good speaker.\u201d\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Yes; \u201cYou\u2019re a good speaker.\u201d\u00a0 I think she looks at me as some kind of civil rights leader or something like that; you know?\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You\u2019ve got good things to say \/ you\u2019re calling people to justice\u2014that kind of thing?\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Absolutely.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>There did come a time, though, where she started to soften to the message that you were preaching; right?\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Yes; well, actually, there were two times. The first time was when I eventually graduated from Bible college.\n\n<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\nI moved to Southern California; I lived out there for 11 years and worked at a church called Shepherd Church \/ Shepherd of the Hill Church. She came out, and she visited our multi-site campus one Sunday.\n\nWhen she heard the message, afterwards\u2014it was funny\u2014we were driving down [Hwy.] 101. We were almost\u2014both of us a fatality; because she said, \u201cI think I might be closer to accepting Christ.\u201d\u00a0 When she said that, I just\u2014I don\u2019t know what happened\u2014I just lost control of the steering wheel. We went into the other lane. People started honking. I led my mom to cuss, at that point, by accident because she was afraid; but it was just such a unique experience. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nThat was not the point that she accepted Christ; but she was softening, and she was getting to the point at that juncture in her life.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, what was the second time?\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>I got married in 2004\u2014a beautiful Latina woman\u2014she is this <em>gorgeous<\/em> lady. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\nFinally, I wanted to preach after 11 years. We moved to Dallas, Texas, to go pastor a church. When we moved there, both of my parents, separately of one another, moved there to be closer to our family. I had never really lived in like a five-mile radius of my parents since I was two; but then, my parents floored me when they said, \u201cCan we start attending your church?\u201d\n\n<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>independent of each other.\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Yes; independent!\u00a0 They both started attending my church, and it was <em>fascinating<\/em>. What was even more annoying is that my church treated them better than I did\u2014they <em>loved<\/em> my parents. This was a catalyst for my parents to come closer to Jesus, because they finally were around a group of people that treated them like people and not like evangelistic projects\u2014it was <em>huge<\/em>.\n\nSo, then\u2014\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I want to stop there because we had Rosaria Butterfield on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, and she instructed our listeners, as well as Bob and me, how important hospitality is to the homosexual community.\n\n<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\nThat sounds like what happened in your church in Dallas\u2014how they invited your mom and dad into community and into their homes to be able to relate to them and get to know them.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Absolutely, and I think that we should do that with everybody, period, in our churches. I mean, if you invite somebody over to your house, you know what? You\u2019re going to treat them like a guest\u2014you\u2019re going to extend hospitality to them. At our church, every Sunday, we\u2019re always expecting guests from all walks of life; and we have people from all walks of life.\n\nYou know, not everybody at my church in Dallas was excited about it, but there were quite a few who were; so, the summer of 2013, we had an opportunity to move back to Simi Valley\u2014it was my wife\u2019s hometown; she loves it there; we have a lot of friends there. We love Southern California. My wife loves Disneyland\u2014<em>loves<\/em> Disneyland. So, we moved back.\n\nTwo weeks before we moved back, both my parents gave their lives to the Lord\u2014both of them\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014independent of one another?\n\n<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>\u2014independent of one another.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You\u2019ve got to share how that happened. I mean, there is too much of a drama here and too much of a history\u2014not to just say: \u201cHere\u2019s what my mom did,\u201d \u201cHere\u2019s what my dad did.\u201d\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I remember talking with my mom; and she had been in a hospital, because she was having some health issues. She had been praying with a lot of people. She said, \u201cCaleb, I believe that I\u2019m a Christian.\u201d\u00a0 We talked about it, and I talked to her about what she believed. I really believe, with all my heart, that she was and that she still is a Christian.\n\nNow, does she believe everything that I believe, theologically?\u00a0 No; she doesn\u2019t. Does she believe the fundamentals\u2014the orthodoxy?\u00a0 Yes; she does. Is she still working out her salvation with fear and trembling \/ the sanctification process?\u2014<em>absolutely<\/em>. God is working that in her. There is a lot of emotional hurt and pain, throughout the years, that she has to tread through; but I truly believe that she is saved.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I think you raise an important point, which is:\n\n<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\n\u201cWhen somebody comes to faith, and when they do affirm the essentials of the faith, they come in with a background \/ with a story\u2014with a lot of things that may have to get worked through. We need to be patient, and let people process, and let them learn from the Word of God \/ by the Spirit of God things that it may have taken us a while to learn.\u201d\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>I tell our congregation all the time\u2014and actually, I had a meeting with different leaders the weekend before my book released, <em>Messy Grace<\/em>. I remember in this meeting, I told our volunteers, and our leaders, and our staff, and our elder team the same thing that I say on Sunday morning\u2014I said: \u201cHey, at this church, we give people margin in their lives to experience God. We don\u2019t expect people to automatically get their act together when they start attending after the third week, or the fourth week, or the fifth week.\n\n\u201cWe need to give that margin, not only for them, but also for God; because here\u2019s the deal\u2014salvation is instantaneous; but usually, it\u2019s a process for people to get to that point; and sanctification is a process\u2014\n\n<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cof God tearing down our prideful walls and making us more into His image. So, we give God margin to work His process.\u201d\n\nIt\u2019s not that we don\u2019t have tough conversations; it\u2019s not that we don\u2019t do church discipline when that has to be done; but there\u2019s\u2014everybody in our church is taking their next step with Jesus somewhere.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>What about your dad?\u00a0 What was his story?\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>I was over at his house\u2014his apartment, actually\u2014and I remember I was helping him sort through some books. Unfortunately, now, my dad has Alzheimer\u2019s. He actually lives closer with us in Simi Valley; but back then, Alzheimer\u2019s was setting in, but I hadn\u2019t seen it yet. My dad has always been a little disorganized, but I was helping sort through some books.\n\nAs we were just sitting there, talking and sorting through books, my dad said: \u201cCaleb, I know I would go to church every now and then\u201d\u2014at the Episcopal Church\u2014\u201cbut more than ever, now, I think I see that Jesus really does love me.\n\n<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\n\u201cI just feel that I have a different relationship with Him. I honestly believe that I believe in Him, and my whole relationship is at another level. I really believe that I\u2019m saved.\u201d\n\nI remember <em>hearing<\/em> that from my dad, again, and thinking to myself, \u201cYou\u2019ve got to be kidding me!\u201d I mean, this is the guy that <em>grounded<\/em> me when I got baptized \/ that kicked me out of the house. This is the guy that made fun of me for believing in Christianity because it was illogical\u2014it was not rational; it did not fit his materialistic\/physical-focused worldview\u2014and now, completely shift.\n\nHere is a big lesson I learned from that, guys. I learned that people base so much of their view of who God is and who Jesus is off how we treat them. I learned that because, when my parents were around people who treated them like people and not like projects\u2014\n\n<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014and really lived out what Jesus says in Matthew 5:46\u2014and actually, 43-48\u2014and what Jesus said in Luke 6:35, when He says: \u201cHey, love your enemies. Do good. Lend to them, because God is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful as your heavenly Father is merciful.\u201d\n\nYou know, I\u2019m thinking about that. It\u2019s in those moments\u2014when people experience God working through <em>us<\/em>\u2014they see maybe Jesus is different. If I\u2019m going to be honest\u2014when I was sitting in that Bible study in high school, and sitting around and engaging, and when they really knew that I was not saved, their tone changed with me. When their tone changed with me, they became more caring; and when they became more caring and treated me differently, something happened in my heart\u2014something happened.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Can I just read the verses that you referenced?\u2014Matthew, Chapter 5, starting in verse 43\u2014\n\n<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014Jesus says: \u201cYou have heard it was said, \u2018You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.\u2019\u00a0 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He makes His sun to rise on the evil and on the good; sends the rain on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?\u00a0 Do not even the tax collectors do the same?\u00a0 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others?\u00a0 Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.\u201d\n\nThat\u2019s strong stuff for all of us to hear, but that\u2019s what God\u2019s calling us to; isn\u2019t it?\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Especially when you think of the first century\u2014that Jesus was probably referring to Roman soldiers when He said, \u201cLove your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,\u201d\u2014\n\n<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014\u201cLove the people who have killed your family. Love the people who have killed your brother, and love the occupying force.\u201d\u00a0 We have trouble loving other politicians in this country.\n\n<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Caleb, we\u2019re going to come back after Bob tells listeners how they can get a copy of the book, but here is your assignment\u2014I\u2019m going to ask you to seat your mom and your dad across the table from you and to fulfil the Fifth Commandment. I\u2019m going to ask you to honor and speak a tribute to both of them for what they did do right. Are you willing to do that?\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Absolutely, because they did do a lot right.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Let me just mention that the book that you\u2019ve written, Caleb, is called <em>Messy Grace<\/em>. It tells your story of growing up in the family you grew up in and how you <em>Learned to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction<\/em>\u2014that\u2019s the subtitle of the book. I think it\u2019s a helpful book for all of us. You can go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to order a copy. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com.\n\nDennis\u2014\n\n<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, Caleb, you\u2019ve had a few minutes to think about addressing your mom and your dad and giving them both a tribute.\n\n<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\nSpeak to them both, if you would please, in the first person.\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>\n\nMom and Dad, I would not be who I am without you. You\u2019ve instilled in me a sense of justice \/ a pursuit of those who are different and not like me. You\u2019ve instilled in me a love of academics, education, logical thinking. You\u2019ve instilled in me <em>love<\/em>. Even through the tough moments, there was never a moment when I ever doubted that you loved me. Even through the tough moments of moving from house to house, I never doubted for a second that you loved me. I know that you love me, still, to this day.\n\nI know that God, in His sovereignty, allowed all of this to happen; and I know that this can be the best season of all three of our lives if we trust God in whatever season that we are in.\n\n<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nI want you to know that, despite what you may feel that you have done wrong or I have, I\u2019m extremely proud \/ enormously proud to be your son.\n\nI also want you to know that for any pain, throughout the years, that I may have caused you, especially in my religious fervor when I first came to Christ, I apologize for that. As I process through the emotions of learning what it is to follow Christ, and trying to love you, and walking this delicate balance between grace and truth and this tension, I\u2019m sorry if you ever got hurt. I\u2019m sorry for the times that I didn\u2019t know how to handle my emotions correctly, because I am not a perfect person; but I know that Satan meant to disrupt and destroy our lives \/ God allowed it to happen to save lives.\n\n<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\nI truly believe that through both of your lives\u2014even though both of them were painful, even from childhood to now\u2014I truly believe that God is using your lives and this story\u2014which is not just mine \/ it\u2019s yours\u2014to help people for such a time as this because people need help. With the suicide rate of gay teenagers rising, parents need to know how to love; teenagers need to know truth. You have become a clay pot that God is using and shining light on.\n\nThank you for being you and loving me. I love you so much.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> of Little Rock, Arkansas;\n\nA Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2018 FamilyLife. 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