{"id":305402,"date":"2019-10-04T16:00:49","date_gmt":"2019-10-04T20:00:49","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/loving-my-gay-parents\/"},"modified":"2019-10-04T16:00:49","modified_gmt":"2019-10-04T20:00:49","slug":"loving-my-gay-parents","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/loving-my-gay-parents\/","title":{"rendered":"Loving My Gay Parents"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>guest: Caleb Kaltenbach | Series: Messy Grace | Every family is messy. Caleb Kaltenbach&#8217;s is no exception. Caleb reflects on growing up with a mom and dad who divorced when he was 2 upon discovering they were each gay. Caleb&#8217;s mother shared a home with her partner for 22 years, and his father stayed in the closet until Caleb was in college. Caleb offers unique insight on how the gay community perceives Christians.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Caleb Kaltenbach reflects on growing up with a mom and dad who divorced when he was 2 because they had each realized they were gay. Caleb offers insight on how the gay community perceives Christians.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-07-02.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:21","filesize":"25.04M","filesize_raw":"26257961","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2906,2896,2821],"tags":[4033,4438,4129],"podcast_series":[7227],"cwp_profile":[3449],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-305402","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-becoming-a-christian","category-lgbt","category-reaching-out","tag-divorce","tag-gay-community","tag-homosexuality","podcast_series-messy-grace","cwp_profile-caleb-kaltenbach","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/305402\/loving-my-gay-parents","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/305402\/loving-my-gay-parents","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"WamVn9Pd4m\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/loving-my-gay-parents\/\">Loving My Gay Parents<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/loving-my-gay-parents\/embed\/#?secret=WamVn9Pd4m\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Loving My Gay Parents&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"WamVn9Pd4m\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-07-02.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-07-02.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, July 2<sup>nd<\/sup>. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I'm Bob Lepine. Caleb Kaltenbach grew up in what I think we\u2019d all agree was a somewhat messy family situation. He had to learn, eventually, how to apply what he calls \u201cmessy grace.\u201d Stay with us.\n\n<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us on the Monday edition. You know, every family is messy at some level; right? But there are\u2014\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> No doubt. I was just withholding the answer there because\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It\u2019s self-evident; isn\u2019t it?\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Wow! I mean, you get six children, two imperfect parents; I mean, what are you going to get? You\u2019re going to get some\u2014some messiness. This is where I think the Bible has all kinds of relevance, because it\u2019s about messy people. It\u2019s about imperfect people \/ imperfect stories and how God, in His sovereign majesty, works out a story that honors Him.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; I love what Matt Chandler says\u2014\n\n<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n\u2014he says, \u201cIt\u2019s okay not to be okay; it\u2019s just not okay to stay there.\u201d [Laughter] That\u2019s what the story of redemption\u2019s all about!\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, we have a guest with us today who has quite a story. Now, I just want you to know\u2014as a listener, I don\u2019t know what you\u2019re doing; but set it aside\u2014because what you\u2019re going to hear is going to be riveting\u2014I am confident of that. He has written a book called <em>Messy Grace<\/em>, and it is subtitled: <em>How a Pastor with Gay Parents Learned to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction<\/em>. Now, <em>that<\/em> is a mouthful!\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> We have with us Caleb Kaltenbach. Welcome to the broadcast.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> It\u2019s great to be here. Thank you for having me.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Caleb, this lead line over the title of your book, <em>How a Pastor with Gay Parents Learned to Love Others<\/em>\u2014wow! Take us back to the home you grew up in. I mean, I\u2019ve heard a lot of stories; but I\u2019m not sure I\u2019ve heard one about a pastor who came from that kind of background.\n\n<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I was raised in Columbia, Missouri, and Kansas City\u2014actually, I started out in Columbia. Both my parents were professors at the University of Missouri-Columbia and at local schools there\u2014taught subjects like philosophy, law, rhetoric, and English literature. When I was two, they got a divorce; and both of them entered into same-sex relationships.\n\nMy mom went into a 22-year-long monogamous relationship with her partner, Vera\u2014she was a psychologist. Now, my dad on the other hand\u2014he had several different relationships. He never had <em>one<\/em> relationship that lasted. I actually\u2014I didn\u2019t even know about my dad until I got to be college-age\u2014maybe just graduated from college\u2014but I kind of always had my suspicions; I don\u2019t know. But I was raised by three gay parents.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is at a time that is unlike today, when these relationships tended to be more closeted. Were your parents \u201cout\u201d about their sexual preference?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> My dad was in the closet. My mom and her partner, as I said\u2014they did go to Kansas City.\n\n<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\nThey were very loud and proud, and very out. They were on the board of directors for the Kansas City chapter of GLAD. They were activists. They took me with them to Gay Pride parades, and bars, and clubs when I was preschool age\/elementary age. I remember going with them to activist events. I remember marching in a Gay Pride parade one time and seeing all these\u2014I\u2019ll use quotations, \u201cChristians\u201d\u2014holding up signs, saying, \u201cGod hates you!\u201d If that wasn\u2019t offensive enough, they were spraying people with water and urine at one of the particular parades.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Oh!\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Oh!\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I remember that so vividly, almost as if it happened yesterday. I remember just, right now to this day, I remember looking at my mom, looking at her in the eye, and saying, \u201cMom, why are they acting like this?\u201d I was about nine or ten\u2014somewhere around there. She looked at me and she said, \u201cWell, Caleb, they\u2019re Christians; and Christians <em>hate <\/em>gay people.\u201d\n\nThat <em>stuck<\/em> with me. My whole childhood, I was raised to believe that.\n\n<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\nI saw that when AIDS was developing in America and spreading, and we were learning more about it. Many of my mom\u2019s friends contracted it. I remember one man, named Louis, who was a young man\u2014his family was Christian. They already didn\u2019t accept him, because he was in a same-sex relationship. When he got AIDS, they <em>really<\/em> didn\u2019t want to have anything to do with him. We went and visited him in a hospital one time.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes; you describe a scene in your book that is pretty\u2014\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014pretty amazing.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Yes; and the most disturbing thing was\u2014obviously, it\u2019s disturbing to see somebody die from AIDS, if you\u2019ve ever seen that\u2014but seeing his family being so nonchalant, while they were reading their Bibles, lined up against the wall, like they were waiting for a firing squad to come get them. That, to me, was unforgivable at that time.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> They were not next to his bed\u2014\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> No.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014holding his hand, speaking love to him. They were kind of huddled together in another section of the room, not caring for him at all.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> No; and they wouldn\u2019t even talk to us. I remember my mom looked at me and she said, \u201cHey, Christians hate gay people.\u201d\n\n<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So you grew up with that as your view of Christians and Christianity. At the same time, you\u2019re going to elementary school. You had to be the only kid in your school who had two moms.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Oh, I didn\u2019t tell anybody that I had two moms\u2014I didn\u2019t tell anybody. Even as a young kid, I wondered about my dad; but I didn\u2019t tell anybody because, even though, at that age, I didn\u2019t think there was anything wrong about that relationship\u2014at the same time, I <em>knew<\/em> that I was different. I did <em>not<\/em> want to get made fun of.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So you just would tell folks you lived with your mom, and your mom and dad were divorced; and that was it?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> And I would go back and forth; absolutely.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Was it 50-50?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> No; I spent most of the time with my dad.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I\u2019ve been looking forward to talking with you; because I\u2019m seeing children today grow up in homes, where they have two same-sex parents. I\u2019m just wondering: \u201cWhat\u2019s happening in the life of that child? What\u2019s that child thinking\/feeling?\u201d What was going on in your life, emotionally, if you can think back and articulate kind of what you were thinking and feeling?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I remember Vera, my mother\u2019s partner.\n\n<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\nWe did not get along at all, almost from Day One, when I was a little kid. There was a real jealousy\/competition factor with her and my mother. I remember learning, at a very young age, that Vera really hated men. Even though I was a little boy, I was still a man\u2014representative of that.\n\nIf I had time to take you through her past \/ my mom and dad\u2019s past, you would totally understand where they would get that hatred from. I even understand it today. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the right response, but I understand how that could be <em>a<\/em> response.\n\nThis is where I think parenting is <em>so<\/em> incredibly important on two levels. Number one, parents have got to learn that they have to deal with their issues; because whatever their burdens are, when they don\u2019t deal with them and seek healing from them, they pass them onto their kids. Their kids now have to bear the burdens that their parents do.\n\nBut also, our kids\u2014and I\u2019m very mindful of this with my own kids\u2014\n\n<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n\u2014are always watching me: and how I handle stressful situations and how I handle life\u2014because they model their achievement of emotional balance through watching me and their mother.\n\nWe want to do that in a Christ-like way so, when they see that life is difficult \/ that life is tough, they see us turning to God. They don\u2019t see us raging, or ignoring them, or doing things like that, or being abusive.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So back to the question, Caleb. As a little boy, growing up\u2014obviously, you said you spent most of your time with your dad.\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Were you ashamed that you had two mommies?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I wasn\u2019t ashamed; I did not want to be made fun of. They never came together to any events. I <em>knew<\/em> that there was something wrong. What was really ironic was, even if you were to look at Vera and my mother\u2019s relationship, Vera took on the role of the man in the relationship. Then my mom took on the role of the woman. Even within their relationship, they still <em>mirrored<\/em> the image that the Creator set up in the covenant of marriage. Even though it was not the <em>right <\/em>image, it\u2019s always been fascinating that, even within that, we still mirror what God originally set up. Does that make sense?\n\n<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Your dad, you said, was a bachelor.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> He\u2019s who you spent most of your time with. At what age did you start to become aware of the fact: \u201cHey, my family\u2019s different; I\u2019ve got two moms.\u201d You\u2019re starting to understand human sexuality for yourself at\u2014I guess, 10, 11, or 12 years old\u2014whatever age it was. When did you start to put the pieces together that the family you were in was unusual?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> When I was in elementary school, because I would see everybody else talk about their parents and so on and so forth. I started watching my dad. I knew that he did not have a girlfriend. I knew that he spent time around one person in particular. He had different people over, and then I wouldn\u2019t see them for a while. There was an ebb and flow that just was not ever consistent\u2014there was hardly any consistency. By the time I got to high school, my worldview was very whacked-out. I mean, I did not have a Christian worldview, obviously.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But when you grow up in that situation and that\u2019s your normal, a lot of young people just think: \u201cThis is normal.\n\n<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n\u201cIt may not be the same as everybody else\u2019s, but my situation is not a <em>wrong<\/em> situation.\u201d\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Yes; but the thing is that there\u2019s no standard then. The Bible provides a standard in holy living\u2014sanctification\u2014and how we should live our lives in <em>every<\/em> aspect \/ in <em>every<\/em> domain of our life.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And you didn\u2019t have that.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> No; I didn\u2019t have that. My worldview had no standard; it had no basis. It was always shifting. It was like culture\u2014culture is always changing, because people always change; because there\u2019s no focal point. When you follow Jesus, <em>He\u2019s<\/em> the focal point; <em>He\u2019s <\/em>the standard; He\u2019s by which you measure everything and make your decisions.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Did you have any sexual ethic?\u2014any personal sexual ethic?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> No; I didn\u2019t. I mean, I never had premarital sex or anything like that. I never got into anything destructive; but I was of the mindset that anything you wanted to do, as long as it didn\u2019t hurt anybody, was okay. You know, more of a <em>Modern Family<\/em>-type mindset, I guess you would say.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. So what your mom and dad had chosen to do\u2014\n\n<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n\u2014you looked at that and said: \u201cThat\u2019s their choice,\u201d or \u201cThat\u2019s who they are. They\u2019re just being true to who they are.\u201d\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> \u201cThat\u2019s good for them.\u201d\n\nI\u2019ve never experienced same-sex attraction. My mom would always ask me a lot, \u201cWell, it is okay, Caleb; it is okay.\u201d Even as a young kid, I would say: \u201cI\u2019ve always liked girls. I\u2019m sorry; I don\u2019t\u2026\u201d Some of the times, I felt like my mom was trying to talk me into it\u2014you know, again, they were activists. They were very justice oriented.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Growing up in this home, where you didn\u2019t have a healthy relationship between a mother and a father, in a biblical sense, and without a standard\u2014I was just wondering how you handled\u2014you sure didn\u2019t have the culture shoving it down your throat as it does today; but you weren\u2019t confused, it doesn\u2019t sound like, at all.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> No; I thought it was okay for them to do whatever; but you\u2019ve got to understand, from the very beginning, my parents raised me differently. I mean, I\u2019ll just give you an example\u2014I don\u2019t write about this in the book\u2014but one of the first movies I ever saw, as a kid, was <em>An American Werewolf in London<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Still scares me today, thinking about it.\n\n<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\nBut you think about that!\u2014there was no standard; there were no boundaries. That\u2019s one of the things I realized about my childhood\u2014that there were no boundaries.\n\nThere <em>were<\/em> boundaries with my parents, but they\u2019re very long-stretched. When I would step over one\u2014usually, when I would question their sexuality or their choice to be in a same-sex relationship, even at a young age\u2014the consequences were very swift. That\u2019s how I grew up, so I had that same justice within me.\n\nI got invited to go to this Bible study when I was in high school\u2014led by a high schooler <em>for<\/em> high schoolers. I thought: \u201cThis is perfect! I\u2019m going to go, and I\u2019m going to pretend to be a Christian. I\u2019m going to be a ninja-Christian. I\u2019m going to go in there\u2026\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> [Laughter] A ninja-Christian?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> A ninja-Christian.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Now, hold it! What\u2019s that?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Well, you know: \u201cI\u2019m going to go in there and I\u2019m going\u2014I\u2019m going to pretend to talk the lingo. I\u2019m going to learn about the Bible and dismantle their faith with my questions,\u201d\u2014that was my plan.\n\nI never owned a Bible.\n\n<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\nI grabbed a New Revised Standard Version, and I didn\u2019t know what that meant. I just figured they revised something, and I took it. [Laughter]\n\nYou\u2019ve got to understand\u2014I had never been in a Christian household before in my entire life\u2014like an evangelical, <em>conservative<\/em> Christian household. Imagine me walking in, and the first thing I notice on the wall\u2014I looked at my friend that came with me and I said, \u201cWhy are there framed pictures of sheep, and lions, and Bible verses all over the house?\u201d I looked at my friend and I said: \u201cIs this part of the deal? If I turn Christian, do I have to get a sheep picture?\u201d [Laughter] I mean, because I had never seen so many framed pictures of sheep before in my life! [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I want to take you back to the Gay Pride parade that you marched in as a boy. You gave some\u2014really, I can\u2019t imagine, from a descriptive standpoint\u2014having somebody spit on you, and toss water, and, as you said, urine on a little boy and have so many people hating you because you were marching in a parade on behalf of the whole LGBTQ community.\n\n<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\nWhat would you say was the most hurtful and hateful thing you experienced, as a boy, growing up, from the Christian community?\n\nI\u2019m picturing you going to this Bible study\u2014it\u2019s like I would think you would be a ninja, going into that thing; because you\u2019d had some harm done to you by the Christian community. Was there anything done, as you grew up as a boy, that you would characterize as the most hurtful and hateful thing?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Yes; one time my mother and I were driving through Kansas to visit my family. There were these Christians on the street corners, holding up signs. I remember my mother\u2019s car was a purple RAV4. You\u2019ve got to understand\u2014she had bumper\u2014she was very loud and proud\u2014she had bumper stickers on there, like: \u201cLorena Bobbitt for Surgeon General\u201d and stuff like that. I mean, \u201cGraduate of Thelma &amp; Louise Finishing School.\u201d I mean, you\u2019d spot it a mile away; you know?\n\nI remember, my mom didn\u2019t do anything to them.\n\n<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\nShe pulled up, and they saw her stickers. They started cussing at her, and they started yelling at her and spitting. I just looked at my mom. She started crying in that moment, because she felt <em>humiliated<\/em>. I remember thinking about that, and I remember\u2014\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> How old were you as a boy?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I must have been close to middle school. It was not my best moment\u2014I rolled down the window and flipped them the bird. I got a hold of their newsletter. They put that on the front of it, saying, \u201cLook at our persecution.\u201d Hopefully, that\u2019s gone out of print.\n\nI just remember my mom and her reaction of them immediately judging her without getting to know her, and just the humiliation and the tears, and just the pain that she had. It was so raw that, when I looked at a Christian, I thought about that.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So when somebody comes to you and says, \u201cDo you want to come over to a Bible study at So-and-so\u2019s house?\u201d\n\n<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\nYou were thinking: \u201cI want to come blow this thing up. I don\u2019t want to come and be a part of this group. I want to come and dismantle it.\u201d\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I was ready for war; I was ready for war.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And yet, you walk in. There are Bible verses and pictures of sheep all over the place.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You were probably thinking about slaughtering some sheep at that point. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t know what was going to happen. I didn\u2019t know if we were going to sacrifice a chicken downstairs in the Bible study. I didn\u2019t know what would happen.\n\nSo we go down there, and we\u2019re all reading through 1 Corinthians. I\u2019m in 1 Chronicles, and they\u2019re all reading verses from Paul. Then I read a verse about somebody getting slaughtered\u2014not a sheep though\u2014a person. They said, \u201cWell, Caleb, where are you?\u201d I said, \u201cWell, I\u2019m in 1 Chronicles.\u201d \u201cOh! You\u2019re in the Old Testament!\u201d I said: \u201cSo, I guess there\u2019s a new one. There\u2019s updated 2.0!\u201d or something like that. I was so embarrassed, but I kept on going back; because I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m not going to let these people get me down.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Did they know where you came from?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I think a couple of them did. Definitely, when I didn\u2019t even know there was a New Testament, they were like: \u201cOh look! Somebody that\u2019s not a Christian right there.\u201d\n\n<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Some of the attitudes changed and <em>softened<\/em> towards me; because, when I first said that I was in 1 Chronicles: \u201cIs there a New Testament?\u201d\u2014you know, a girl said, \u201cYes, the <em>New<\/em> Testament\u201d as if I was supposed to know that. \u201cI\u2019m sorry. I must have one of those new Bibles,\u201d you know? I didn\u2019t know.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>But I kept on going. It\u2019s funny; I was expecting to disprove the worldview of Christianity, but I found Somebody very different in the Gospels than what I had experienced on the street corners or the hospital rooms.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You\u2019d actually had a young lady\u2014prior to this Bible study; hadn\u2019t you?\u2014who had given you what you thought was a love note?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> [Sigh] Yes. That was painful. It was nice and painful at the same time, because she\u2014you know, for elementary age, she was hot. I thought she dug my chili, but she didn\u2019t. It was a Jesus note. I remember opening it and thinking to myself: \u201cOh, really? A Jesus note?\u201d I was hoping for: \u201cCaleb, you\u2019re debonair. You\u2019re all this and more.\u201d\n\n<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\nYou know, she explained the gospel to me. I threw away the note and told her I\u2019d think about it. But even to this day, I still remember it; because she\u2019s probably one of the only Christians that I had a positive experience with. Actually, when I think about it now, she actually took the time to sit down and to write that out, as an elementary age schoolgirl\u2014writing that out, letting us know about the gospel. That was <em>huge<\/em> when I think about it, and I tell my kids about that all the time.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay; so if you could go back and have a do-over of your middle school\/high school experience, and you could coach the Christians in your school on how to\u2014how to reach out to a guy like you, what would you tell them to do differently than they did?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I would say: \u201cNumber one, don\u2019t assume that everybody else is at the same spiritual level that you are.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I mean, even when I preach every Sunday, I don\u2019t make that, you know\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014assumption.\n\n<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>\u2014assumption; exactly! Everybody\u2019s at a different spiritual level.\n\nThe second thing that I would say is: \u201cDon\u2019t automatically engage in a Bible study, where you think that everybody obviously knows: \u2018Hey, we\u2019re going to go to\n\n1 Corinthians,\u2019 \u2018We\u2019re going to go to\u2026Paul,\u2019\u2014this kind of thing. If you have a new person, you have no idea if they\u2019re new or not.\u201d\n\n\u201cDon\u2019t assume that everybody\u2019s on the same page as you when it comes to politics,\u201d because I <em>wasn\u2019t<\/em> whatsoever. I was raised by two <em>extremely<\/em> liberal parents. I was <em>nowhere<\/em> near, and they <em>immediately<\/em> brought up politics. They <em>immediately<\/em> started trashing politicians, and so on and so forth. You\u2019ve got to understand\u2014my mother was very political! I can be very political. This was a huge turn-off; because I\u2019m like: \u201cOkay; these people are assuming I am where they are. These people just are moving, and I\u2019m lost. I don\u2019t even know that there\u2019s a New Testament. They\u2019re ripping people, politically, that I know that my mom likes.\n\n<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\n\u201cSo far, it feels like the same thing, except I\u2019m sitting down with the enemy. It feels like I\u2019m sitting in the Trojan horse almost\u201d; you know?\u2014that\u2019s what it felt like in that moment.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Just listening to where you\u2019d come from, I\u2019m amazed you became a believer. It had to be God chasing you down\u2014and His love and His grace.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> It was the sovereignty of God, absolutely; 100 percent.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I mean, I learned\u2014\u2014the more that I studied Jesus, Dennis, I learned that He had very deep theological convictions and expectations for how we should live our life. He also had very deep relationships with people\u2014who are far from God and not like Him, which, I guess, was everybody was not like Him\u2014but still, He pursued people that the religious culture would not. He pursued people that even secular society wouldn\u2019t either. He really marched to the beat of His own drum.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes; you tell the story in your book about how Jesus approached the woman caught in adultery\u2014\n\n<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and how the religious community didn\u2019t rescue her. They were ready to stone her.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> No.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And how Jesus reached out and protected her. I think that\u2019s who you encountered in that Bible study. You ultimately found the Jesus Christ of the Gospels and of the New Testament, who fulfilled the Old Testament. He became flesh and showed us what <em>real<\/em> love looks like and what God\u2019s love for us is today.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; we\u2019ve reflected, often here, on what John says about Jesus in John 1:14, which is that He was the picture for us\u2014He is the revelation of the Father\u2014but it says He\u2019s full of grace and truth. He\u2019s full of both\u2014there\u2019s grace and there\u2019s truth. I think that\u2019s what we\u2019re having to learn to wrap our hearts and heads around, as followers of Jesus today: \u201cHow can we be full of truth?\u201d\n\n<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\nWell, you say it: \u201c<em>How Can We Learn to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction?<\/em>\u201d\u2014that\u2019s the subtitle of the book you\u2019ve written\u2014called <em>Messy Grace<\/em>.\n\nI\u2019d encourage our listeners to get a copy of it and read your story\u2014read the things you\u2019ve learned along the way, and how you\u2019ve coached us today to do better as we engage with people who don\u2019t think the way we think about issues. Caleb Kaltenbach\u2019s book is called <em>Messy Grace<\/em>. We\u2019ve got it in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can order a copy from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to order a copy. Again, the toll-free number is 1-800-358-6329\u20141-800-FL-TODAY\u2014or go online to order at FamilyLifeToday.com.\n\nWe want to take a minute here and just say a quick word of thanks to those of you who are, not just regular listeners to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>\u2014\n\n<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014and while we\u2019re glad to have all of our regular listeners tuning in\u2014thank you for doing that. We want to give a special shout-out to those of you who make this program possible. I don\u2019t know how many listeners realize this; but in your community, there are a small number of people who have made it possible for you to hear what you\u2019ve heard today. They are friends of this ministry, who will, either on occasion or on a regular basis, support <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>with a donation.\n\nDuring the summer months, we often see a decline in the number of folks we hear from, who are helping to support this program. If you\u2019re a regular listener\u2014if programs like the one you\u2019ve heard today are helpful for you and your family \/ if you think this is an important conversation to be having in your community\u2014would you join the FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> team and help make this program possible on an ongoing basis? You can do that by giving, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. And you can mail your donation to us.\n\n<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\nOur address is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223.\n\nNow, tomorrow, we want to talk about the difference between accepting someone and approving of someone; because, as we\u2019ll hear from Caleb Kaltenbach, that\u2019s an important distinction. I hope you can be back with us again tomorrow.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry.\n\nHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2018 FamilyLife. 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});\";s:18:\"current_block_list\";a:17:{i:0;s:14:\"uagb\/container\";i:1;s:12:\"core\/heading\";i:2;s:9:\"core\/html\";i:3;s:10:\"core\/group\";i:6;s:21:\"uagb\/advanced-heading\";i:7;s:14:\"uagb\/separator\";i:8;s:14:\"uagb\/icon-list\";i:9;s:20:\"uagb\/icon-list-child\";i:10;s:11:\"core\/search\";i:13;s:18:\"core\/legacy-widget\";i:16;s:10:\"uagb\/image\";i:17;s:17:\"core\/social-links\";i:18;s:16:\"core\/social-link\";i:19;s:14:\"core\/paragraph\";i:20;s:30:\"meta-box\/fl-conditional-blocks\";i:21;s:12:\"uagb\/buttons\";i:22;s:18:\"uagb\/buttons-child\";}s:8:\"uag_flag\";b:1;s:11:\"uag_version\";i:1776415230;s:6:\"gfonts\";a:1:{s:7:\"Default\";a:2:{s:10:\"fontfamily\";s:7:\"Default\";s:12:\"fontvariants\";a:0:{}}}s:10:\"gfonts_url\";s:71:\"\/\/fonts.googleapis.com\/css?family=Default&subset=latin&display=fallback\";s:12:\"gfonts_files\";a:0:{}s:14:\"uag_faq_layout\";b:0;}"]},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Caleb Kaltenbach reflects on growing up with a mom and dad who divorced when he was 2 because they had each realized they were gay. Caleb offers insight on how the gay community perceives Christians.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-07-02.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, July 2<sup>nd<\/sup>. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I'm Bob Lepine. Caleb Kaltenbach grew up in what I think we\u2019d all agree was a somewhat messy family situation. He had to learn, eventually, how to apply what he calls \u201cmessy grace.\u201d Stay with us.\n\n<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us on the Monday edition. You know, every family is messy at some level; right? But there are\u2014\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> No doubt. I was just withholding the answer there because\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It\u2019s self-evident; isn\u2019t it?\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Wow! I mean, you get six children, two imperfect parents; I mean, what are you going to get? You\u2019re going to get some\u2014some messiness. This is where I think the Bible has all kinds of relevance, because it\u2019s about messy people. It\u2019s about imperfect people \/ imperfect stories and how God, in His sovereign majesty, works out a story that honors Him.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; I love what Matt Chandler says\u2014\n\n<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n\u2014he says, \u201cIt\u2019s okay not to be okay; it\u2019s just not okay to stay there.\u201d [Laughter] That\u2019s what the story of redemption\u2019s all about!\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, we have a guest with us today who has quite a story. Now, I just want you to know\u2014as a listener, I don\u2019t know what you\u2019re doing; but set it aside\u2014because what you\u2019re going to hear is going to be riveting\u2014I am confident of that. He has written a book called <em>Messy Grace<\/em>, and it is subtitled: <em>How a Pastor with Gay Parents Learned to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction<\/em>. Now, <em>that<\/em> is a mouthful!\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> We have with us Caleb Kaltenbach. Welcome to the broadcast.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> It\u2019s great to be here. Thank you for having me.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Caleb, this lead line over the title of your book, <em>How a Pastor with Gay Parents Learned to Love Others<\/em>\u2014wow! Take us back to the home you grew up in. I mean, I\u2019ve heard a lot of stories; but I\u2019m not sure I\u2019ve heard one about a pastor who came from that kind of background.\n\n<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I was raised in Columbia, Missouri, and Kansas City\u2014actually, I started out in Columbia. Both my parents were professors at the University of Missouri-Columbia and at local schools there\u2014taught subjects like philosophy, law, rhetoric, and English literature. When I was two, they got a divorce; and both of them entered into same-sex relationships.\n\nMy mom went into a 22-year-long monogamous relationship with her partner, Vera\u2014she was a psychologist. Now, my dad on the other hand\u2014he had several different relationships. He never had <em>one<\/em> relationship that lasted. I actually\u2014I didn\u2019t even know about my dad until I got to be college-age\u2014maybe just graduated from college\u2014but I kind of always had my suspicions; I don\u2019t know. But I was raised by three gay parents.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is at a time that is unlike today, when these relationships tended to be more closeted. Were your parents \u201cout\u201d about their sexual preference?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> My dad was in the closet. My mom and her partner, as I said\u2014they did go to Kansas City.\n\n<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\nThey were very loud and proud, and very out. They were on the board of directors for the Kansas City chapter of GLAD. They were activists. They took me with them to Gay Pride parades, and bars, and clubs when I was preschool age\/elementary age. I remember going with them to activist events. I remember marching in a Gay Pride parade one time and seeing all these\u2014I\u2019ll use quotations, \u201cChristians\u201d\u2014holding up signs, saying, \u201cGod hates you!\u201d If that wasn\u2019t offensive enough, they were spraying people with water and urine at one of the particular parades.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Oh!\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Oh!\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I remember that so vividly, almost as if it happened yesterday. I remember just, right now to this day, I remember looking at my mom, looking at her in the eye, and saying, \u201cMom, why are they acting like this?\u201d I was about nine or ten\u2014somewhere around there. She looked at me and she said, \u201cWell, Caleb, they\u2019re Christians; and Christians <em>hate <\/em>gay people.\u201d\n\nThat <em>stuck<\/em> with me. My whole childhood, I was raised to believe that.\n\n<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\nI saw that when AIDS was developing in America and spreading, and we were learning more about it. Many of my mom\u2019s friends contracted it. I remember one man, named Louis, who was a young man\u2014his family was Christian. They already didn\u2019t accept him, because he was in a same-sex relationship. When he got AIDS, they <em>really<\/em> didn\u2019t want to have anything to do with him. We went and visited him in a hospital one time.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes; you describe a scene in your book that is pretty\u2014\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014pretty amazing.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Yes; and the most disturbing thing was\u2014obviously, it\u2019s disturbing to see somebody die from AIDS, if you\u2019ve ever seen that\u2014but seeing his family being so nonchalant, while they were reading their Bibles, lined up against the wall, like they were waiting for a firing squad to come get them. That, to me, was unforgivable at that time.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> They were not next to his bed\u2014\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> No.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014holding his hand, speaking love to him. They were kind of huddled together in another section of the room, not caring for him at all.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> No; and they wouldn\u2019t even talk to us. I remember my mom looked at me and she said, \u201cHey, Christians hate gay people.\u201d\n\n<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So you grew up with that as your view of Christians and Christianity. At the same time, you\u2019re going to elementary school. You had to be the only kid in your school who had two moms.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Oh, I didn\u2019t tell anybody that I had two moms\u2014I didn\u2019t tell anybody. Even as a young kid, I wondered about my dad; but I didn\u2019t tell anybody because, even though, at that age, I didn\u2019t think there was anything wrong about that relationship\u2014at the same time, I <em>knew<\/em> that I was different. I did <em>not<\/em> want to get made fun of.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So you just would tell folks you lived with your mom, and your mom and dad were divorced; and that was it?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> And I would go back and forth; absolutely.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Was it 50-50?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> No; I spent most of the time with my dad.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I\u2019ve been looking forward to talking with you; because I\u2019m seeing children today grow up in homes, where they have two same-sex parents. I\u2019m just wondering: \u201cWhat\u2019s happening in the life of that child? What\u2019s that child thinking\/feeling?\u201d What was going on in your life, emotionally, if you can think back and articulate kind of what you were thinking and feeling?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I remember Vera, my mother\u2019s partner.\n\n<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\nWe did not get along at all, almost from Day One, when I was a little kid. There was a real jealousy\/competition factor with her and my mother. I remember learning, at a very young age, that Vera really hated men. Even though I was a little boy, I was still a man\u2014representative of that.\n\nIf I had time to take you through her past \/ my mom and dad\u2019s past, you would totally understand where they would get that hatred from. I even understand it today. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the right response, but I understand how that could be <em>a<\/em> response.\n\nThis is where I think parenting is <em>so<\/em> incredibly important on two levels. Number one, parents have got to learn that they have to deal with their issues; because whatever their burdens are, when they don\u2019t deal with them and seek healing from them, they pass them onto their kids. Their kids now have to bear the burdens that their parents do.\n\nBut also, our kids\u2014and I\u2019m very mindful of this with my own kids\u2014\n\n<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n\u2014are always watching me: and how I handle stressful situations and how I handle life\u2014because they model their achievement of emotional balance through watching me and their mother.\n\nWe want to do that in a Christ-like way so, when they see that life is difficult \/ that life is tough, they see us turning to God. They don\u2019t see us raging, or ignoring them, or doing things like that, or being abusive.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So back to the question, Caleb. As a little boy, growing up\u2014obviously, you said you spent most of your time with your dad.\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Were you ashamed that you had two mommies?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I wasn\u2019t ashamed; I did not want to be made fun of. They never came together to any events. I <em>knew<\/em> that there was something wrong. What was really ironic was, even if you were to look at Vera and my mother\u2019s relationship, Vera took on the role of the man in the relationship. Then my mom took on the role of the woman. Even within their relationship, they still <em>mirrored<\/em> the image that the Creator set up in the covenant of marriage. Even though it was not the <em>right <\/em>image, it\u2019s always been fascinating that, even within that, we still mirror what God originally set up. Does that make sense?\n\n<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Your dad, you said, was a bachelor.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> He\u2019s who you spent most of your time with. At what age did you start to become aware of the fact: \u201cHey, my family\u2019s different; I\u2019ve got two moms.\u201d You\u2019re starting to understand human sexuality for yourself at\u2014I guess, 10, 11, or 12 years old\u2014whatever age it was. When did you start to put the pieces together that the family you were in was unusual?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> When I was in elementary school, because I would see everybody else talk about their parents and so on and so forth. I started watching my dad. I knew that he did not have a girlfriend. I knew that he spent time around one person in particular. He had different people over, and then I wouldn\u2019t see them for a while. There was an ebb and flow that just was not ever consistent\u2014there was hardly any consistency. By the time I got to high school, my worldview was very whacked-out. I mean, I did not have a Christian worldview, obviously.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But when you grow up in that situation and that\u2019s your normal, a lot of young people just think: \u201cThis is normal.\n\n<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n\u201cIt may not be the same as everybody else\u2019s, but my situation is not a <em>wrong<\/em> situation.\u201d\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Yes; but the thing is that there\u2019s no standard then. The Bible provides a standard in holy living\u2014sanctification\u2014and how we should live our lives in <em>every<\/em> aspect \/ in <em>every<\/em> domain of our life.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And you didn\u2019t have that.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> No; I didn\u2019t have that. My worldview had no standard; it had no basis. It was always shifting. It was like culture\u2014culture is always changing, because people always change; because there\u2019s no focal point. When you follow Jesus, <em>He\u2019s<\/em> the focal point; <em>He\u2019s <\/em>the standard; He\u2019s by which you measure everything and make your decisions.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Did you have any sexual ethic?\u2014any personal sexual ethic?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> No; I didn\u2019t. I mean, I never had premarital sex or anything like that. I never got into anything destructive; but I was of the mindset that anything you wanted to do, as long as it didn\u2019t hurt anybody, was okay. You know, more of a <em>Modern Family<\/em>-type mindset, I guess you would say.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. So what your mom and dad had chosen to do\u2014\n\n<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n\u2014you looked at that and said: \u201cThat\u2019s their choice,\u201d or \u201cThat\u2019s who they are. They\u2019re just being true to who they are.\u201d\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> \u201cThat\u2019s good for them.\u201d\n\nI\u2019ve never experienced same-sex attraction. My mom would always ask me a lot, \u201cWell, it is okay, Caleb; it is okay.\u201d Even as a young kid, I would say: \u201cI\u2019ve always liked girls. I\u2019m sorry; I don\u2019t\u2026\u201d Some of the times, I felt like my mom was trying to talk me into it\u2014you know, again, they were activists. They were very justice oriented.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Growing up in this home, where you didn\u2019t have a healthy relationship between a mother and a father, in a biblical sense, and without a standard\u2014I was just wondering how you handled\u2014you sure didn\u2019t have the culture shoving it down your throat as it does today; but you weren\u2019t confused, it doesn\u2019t sound like, at all.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> No; I thought it was okay for them to do whatever; but you\u2019ve got to understand, from the very beginning, my parents raised me differently. I mean, I\u2019ll just give you an example\u2014I don\u2019t write about this in the book\u2014but one of the first movies I ever saw, as a kid, was <em>An American Werewolf in London<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Still scares me today, thinking about it.\n\n<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\nBut you think about that!\u2014there was no standard; there were no boundaries. That\u2019s one of the things I realized about my childhood\u2014that there were no boundaries.\n\nThere <em>were<\/em> boundaries with my parents, but they\u2019re very long-stretched. When I would step over one\u2014usually, when I would question their sexuality or their choice to be in a same-sex relationship, even at a young age\u2014the consequences were very swift. That\u2019s how I grew up, so I had that same justice within me.\n\nI got invited to go to this Bible study when I was in high school\u2014led by a high schooler <em>for<\/em> high schoolers. I thought: \u201cThis is perfect! I\u2019m going to go, and I\u2019m going to pretend to be a Christian. I\u2019m going to be a ninja-Christian. I\u2019m going to go in there\u2026\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> [Laughter] A ninja-Christian?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> A ninja-Christian.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Now, hold it! What\u2019s that?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Well, you know: \u201cI\u2019m going to go in there and I\u2019m going\u2014I\u2019m going to pretend to talk the lingo. I\u2019m going to learn about the Bible and dismantle their faith with my questions,\u201d\u2014that was my plan.\n\nI never owned a Bible.\n\n<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\nI grabbed a New Revised Standard Version, and I didn\u2019t know what that meant. I just figured they revised something, and I took it. [Laughter]\n\nYou\u2019ve got to understand\u2014I had never been in a Christian household before in my entire life\u2014like an evangelical, <em>conservative<\/em> Christian household. Imagine me walking in, and the first thing I notice on the wall\u2014I looked at my friend that came with me and I said, \u201cWhy are there framed pictures of sheep, and lions, and Bible verses all over the house?\u201d I looked at my friend and I said: \u201cIs this part of the deal? If I turn Christian, do I have to get a sheep picture?\u201d [Laughter] I mean, because I had never seen so many framed pictures of sheep before in my life! [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I want to take you back to the Gay Pride parade that you marched in as a boy. You gave some\u2014really, I can\u2019t imagine, from a descriptive standpoint\u2014having somebody spit on you, and toss water, and, as you said, urine on a little boy and have so many people hating you because you were marching in a parade on behalf of the whole LGBTQ community.\n\n<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\nWhat would you say was the most hurtful and hateful thing you experienced, as a boy, growing up, from the Christian community?\n\nI\u2019m picturing you going to this Bible study\u2014it\u2019s like I would think you would be a ninja, going into that thing; because you\u2019d had some harm done to you by the Christian community. Was there anything done, as you grew up as a boy, that you would characterize as the most hurtful and hateful thing?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Yes; one time my mother and I were driving through Kansas to visit my family. There were these Christians on the street corners, holding up signs. I remember my mother\u2019s car was a purple RAV4. You\u2019ve got to understand\u2014she had bumper\u2014she was very loud and proud\u2014she had bumper stickers on there, like: \u201cLorena Bobbitt for Surgeon General\u201d and stuff like that. I mean, \u201cGraduate of Thelma &amp; Louise Finishing School.\u201d I mean, you\u2019d spot it a mile away; you know?\n\nI remember, my mom didn\u2019t do anything to them.\n\n<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\nShe pulled up, and they saw her stickers. They started cussing at her, and they started yelling at her and spitting. I just looked at my mom. She started crying in that moment, because she felt <em>humiliated<\/em>. I remember thinking about that, and I remember\u2014\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> How old were you as a boy?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I must have been close to middle school. It was not my best moment\u2014I rolled down the window and flipped them the bird. I got a hold of their newsletter. They put that on the front of it, saying, \u201cLook at our persecution.\u201d Hopefully, that\u2019s gone out of print.\n\nI just remember my mom and her reaction of them immediately judging her without getting to know her, and just the humiliation and the tears, and just the pain that she had. It was so raw that, when I looked at a Christian, I thought about that.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So when somebody comes to you and says, \u201cDo you want to come over to a Bible study at So-and-so\u2019s house?\u201d\n\n<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\nYou were thinking: \u201cI want to come blow this thing up. I don\u2019t want to come and be a part of this group. I want to come and dismantle it.\u201d\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I was ready for war; I was ready for war.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And yet, you walk in. There are Bible verses and pictures of sheep all over the place.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You were probably thinking about slaughtering some sheep at that point. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t know what was going to happen. I didn\u2019t know if we were going to sacrifice a chicken downstairs in the Bible study. I didn\u2019t know what would happen.\n\nSo we go down there, and we\u2019re all reading through 1 Corinthians. I\u2019m in 1 Chronicles, and they\u2019re all reading verses from Paul. Then I read a verse about somebody getting slaughtered\u2014not a sheep though\u2014a person. They said, \u201cWell, Caleb, where are you?\u201d I said, \u201cWell, I\u2019m in 1 Chronicles.\u201d \u201cOh! You\u2019re in the Old Testament!\u201d I said: \u201cSo, I guess there\u2019s a new one. There\u2019s updated 2.0!\u201d or something like that. I was so embarrassed, but I kept on going back; because I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m not going to let these people get me down.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Did they know where you came from?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I think a couple of them did. Definitely, when I didn\u2019t even know there was a New Testament, they were like: \u201cOh look! Somebody that\u2019s not a Christian right there.\u201d\n\n<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Some of the attitudes changed and <em>softened<\/em> towards me; because, when I first said that I was in 1 Chronicles: \u201cIs there a New Testament?\u201d\u2014you know, a girl said, \u201cYes, the <em>New<\/em> Testament\u201d as if I was supposed to know that. \u201cI\u2019m sorry. I must have one of those new Bibles,\u201d you know? I didn\u2019t know.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>But I kept on going. It\u2019s funny; I was expecting to disprove the worldview of Christianity, but I found Somebody very different in the Gospels than what I had experienced on the street corners or the hospital rooms.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You\u2019d actually had a young lady\u2014prior to this Bible study; hadn\u2019t you?\u2014who had given you what you thought was a love note?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> [Sigh] Yes. That was painful. It was nice and painful at the same time, because she\u2014you know, for elementary age, she was hot. I thought she dug my chili, but she didn\u2019t. It was a Jesus note. I remember opening it and thinking to myself: \u201cOh, really? A Jesus note?\u201d I was hoping for: \u201cCaleb, you\u2019re debonair. You\u2019re all this and more.\u201d\n\n<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\nYou know, she explained the gospel to me. I threw away the note and told her I\u2019d think about it. But even to this day, I still remember it; because she\u2019s probably one of the only Christians that I had a positive experience with. Actually, when I think about it now, she actually took the time to sit down and to write that out, as an elementary age schoolgirl\u2014writing that out, letting us know about the gospel. That was <em>huge<\/em> when I think about it, and I tell my kids about that all the time.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay; so if you could go back and have a do-over of your middle school\/high school experience, and you could coach the Christians in your school on how to\u2014how to reach out to a guy like you, what would you tell them to do differently than they did?\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I would say: \u201cNumber one, don\u2019t assume that everybody else is at the same spiritual level that you are.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I mean, even when I preach every Sunday, I don\u2019t make that, you know\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014assumption.\n\n<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>\u2014assumption; exactly! Everybody\u2019s at a different spiritual level.\n\nThe second thing that I would say is: \u201cDon\u2019t automatically engage in a Bible study, where you think that everybody obviously knows: \u2018Hey, we\u2019re going to go to\n\n1 Corinthians,\u2019 \u2018We\u2019re going to go to\u2026Paul,\u2019\u2014this kind of thing. If you have a new person, you have no idea if they\u2019re new or not.\u201d\n\n\u201cDon\u2019t assume that everybody\u2019s on the same page as you when it comes to politics,\u201d because I <em>wasn\u2019t<\/em> whatsoever. I was raised by two <em>extremely<\/em> liberal parents. I was <em>nowhere<\/em> near, and they <em>immediately<\/em> brought up politics. They <em>immediately<\/em> started trashing politicians, and so on and so forth. You\u2019ve got to understand\u2014my mother was very political! I can be very political. This was a huge turn-off; because I\u2019m like: \u201cOkay; these people are assuming I am where they are. These people just are moving, and I\u2019m lost. I don\u2019t even know that there\u2019s a New Testament. They\u2019re ripping people, politically, that I know that my mom likes.\n\n<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\n\u201cSo far, it feels like the same thing, except I\u2019m sitting down with the enemy. It feels like I\u2019m sitting in the Trojan horse almost\u201d; you know?\u2014that\u2019s what it felt like in that moment.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Just listening to where you\u2019d come from, I\u2019m amazed you became a believer. It had to be God chasing you down\u2014and His love and His grace.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> It was the sovereignty of God, absolutely; 100 percent.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> I mean, I learned\u2014\u2014the more that I studied Jesus, Dennis, I learned that He had very deep theological convictions and expectations for how we should live our life. He also had very deep relationships with people\u2014who are far from God and not like Him, which, I guess, was everybody was not like Him\u2014but still, He pursued people that the religious culture would not. He pursued people that even secular society wouldn\u2019t either. He really marched to the beat of His own drum.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes; you tell the story in your book about how Jesus approached the woman caught in adultery\u2014\n\n<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and how the religious community didn\u2019t rescue her. They were ready to stone her.\n\n<strong>Caleb:<\/strong> No.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And how Jesus reached out and protected her. I think that\u2019s who you encountered in that Bible study. You ultimately found the Jesus Christ of the Gospels and of the New Testament, who fulfilled the Old Testament. He became flesh and showed us what <em>real<\/em> love looks like and what God\u2019s love for us is today.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; we\u2019ve reflected, often here, on what John says about Jesus in John 1:14, which is that He was the picture for us\u2014He is the revelation of the Father\u2014but it says He\u2019s full of grace and truth. He\u2019s full of both\u2014there\u2019s grace and there\u2019s truth. I think that\u2019s what we\u2019re having to learn to wrap our hearts and heads around, as followers of Jesus today: \u201cHow can we be full of truth?\u201d\n\n<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\nWell, you say it: \u201c<em>How Can We Learn to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction?<\/em>\u201d\u2014that\u2019s the subtitle of the book you\u2019ve written\u2014called <em>Messy Grace<\/em>.\n\nI\u2019d encourage our listeners to get a copy of it and read your story\u2014read the things you\u2019ve learned along the way, and how you\u2019ve coached us today to do better as we engage with people who don\u2019t think the way we think about issues. Caleb Kaltenbach\u2019s book is called <em>Messy Grace<\/em>. We\u2019ve got it in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can order a copy from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to order a copy. Again, the toll-free number is 1-800-358-6329\u20141-800-FL-TODAY\u2014or go online to order at FamilyLifeToday.com.\n\nWe want to take a minute here and just say a quick word of thanks to those of you who are, not just regular listeners to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>\u2014\n\n<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014and while we\u2019re glad to have all of our regular listeners tuning in\u2014thank you for doing that. We want to give a special shout-out to those of you who make this program possible. I don\u2019t know how many listeners realize this; but in your community, there are a small number of people who have made it possible for you to hear what you\u2019ve heard today. They are friends of this ministry, who will, either on occasion or on a regular basis, support <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>with a donation.\n\nDuring the summer months, we often see a decline in the number of folks we hear from, who are helping to support this program. If you\u2019re a regular listener\u2014if programs like the one you\u2019ve heard today are helpful for you and your family \/ if you think this is an important conversation to be having in your community\u2014would you join the FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> team and help make this program possible on an ongoing basis? You can do that by giving, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. And you can mail your donation to us.\n\n<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\nOur address is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223.\n\nNow, tomorrow, we want to talk about the difference between accepting someone and approving of someone; because, as we\u2019ll hear from Caleb Kaltenbach, that\u2019s an important distinction. I hope you can be back with us again tomorrow.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry.\n\nHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2018 FamilyLife. 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