{"id":305400,"date":"2019-10-04T15:55:57","date_gmt":"2019-10-04T19:55:57","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/grace-and-truth\/"},"modified":"2019-10-04T15:55:57","modified_gmt":"2019-10-04T19:55:57","slug":"grace-and-truth","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/grace-and-truth\/","title":{"rendered":"Grace and Truth"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Caleb Kaltenbach tells what it was like growing up with a gay mom and a gay dad, and how his attempt to prove that the Bible was false actually started him on a walk of faith.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-07-03.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:23","filesize":"25.07M","filesize_raw":"26288482","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2906,2896,2821],"tags":[4133,4033,4438,4129],"podcast_series":[7227],"cwp_profile":[3449],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-305400","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-becoming-a-christian","category-lgbt","category-reaching-out","tag-coming-to-christ","tag-divorce","tag-gay-community","tag-homosexuality","podcast_series-messy-grace","cwp_profile-caleb-kaltenbach","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/305400\/grace-and-truth","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/305400\/grace-and-truth","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"mG7MhHecqU\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/grace-and-truth\/\">Grace and Truth<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/grace-and-truth\/embed\/#?secret=mG7MhHecqU\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Grace and Truth&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"mG7MhHecqU\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-07-03.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-07-03.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>How ought we live, as followers of Jesus, in a culture that is moving away from a biblical foundation for life? Caleb Kaltenbach says Jesus demonstrated what life looks like, full of grace and truth.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>I think another way to say it is that there is a big difference between acceptance and approval. I think that we have to understand that, not just with the LGBT community, but we are moving into a culture where people go with whatever they want to do. There are going to be new things that come out that just really scare Christians, and we don\u2019t know how to handle it. We think: \u201cOkay; do I keep my relationship with this person? Do I not?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s not just the LGBT issue; there are so many issues that are going to come down the pipeline. We have to understand that we are missionaries, and there is a difference between acceptance and approval; and there\u2019s a tension between grace and truth.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, July 3<sup>rd<\/sup>. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you\u2019ve found that life is getting harder to navigate, as a follower of Christ, we\u2019ll see if we can help with some directions today. Stay with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. You know, years ago, there was a lot of controversy around a children\u2019s book that had found its way into libraries. I think it was called <em>Heather Has Two Mommies. <\/em>It was a children\u2019s book designed to provide a picture of normalization for a child who might be growing up in a household where there were two mommies or two daddies, trying to present that as maybe a new normal.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have somebody with us today for whom that was the normal, growing up in a home with two mommies part of the time and with a bachelor dad the other part of the time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes; and Caleb, I just want to say, \u201cThanks for being on our broadcast and sharing your story.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCaleb Kaltenbach joins us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Caleb, welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>It\u2019s great to be back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>He\u2019s written a book called <em>Messy Grace: How a Pastor with Gay Parents Learned to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction.<\/em> The reason I just appreciate you being on the show, talking about this, is I think there are a lot of people, like me, who may not have a lot of gay friends; or if we do, we don\u2019t know it. We need coaching \/ we need understanding. We need someone to take us near and begin the journey for us. I feel like your book did that for me. I really liked being able to peer into your family, where you were raised by two moms and your dad, who later came out as a homosexual as well. You were raised in the midst of no faith \/ no Christian worldview.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think we\u2019re clueless!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tReally, the Christian community\u2019s not really wise about who our audience is, and where they are, and where they aren\u2019t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>No; absolutely. I think that we have come to a point in our nation where we have to realize that we are the away team. We are not the home team anymore. We realize that more than ever at our church. We firmly believe in the inerrancy of Scripture \/ we believe in God\u2019s sovereignty\u2014we believe in all these things\u2014but we\u2019re all very intentional in being missionaries in our context \/ missionaries in Southern California and understanding, as we talked about earlier, that not everybody is at the same point in the spiritual journey. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe just surveyed our church three weeks ago and found out that 42 percent of our attendants, on any given Sunday, is unchurched\u2014meaning that we\u2019re the first church they\u2019ve been to or they haven\u2019t been since they were a kid\u2014because we\u2019re so intentional about going after the lost sheep that Jesus talks about in Luke 15:1-7. But we do that without compromising the gospel and the message; because we have to learn where we are, and we have to understand\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014I think, specifically with this issue, or any other issue that we\u2019re dealing with\u2014that there\u2019s a <em>huge<\/em> tension between grace and truth. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think another way to say it is that there is a big difference between acceptance and approval. I think that we have to understand that, not just with the LGBT community, but we are moving into a culture where people go with whatever they want to do. There are going to be new things that come out that just really scare Christians, and we don\u2019t know how to handle it. We think: \u201cOkay; do I keep my relationship with this person? Do I not?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s not just the LGBT issue; there are so many issues that are going to come down the pipeline. We have to understand that we are missionaries, and there is a difference between acceptance and approval; and there is a tension between grace and truth.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You\u2019ve already shared with us that your impression of Christians, growing up, was that they were bigoted\/hateful. When you were with your mom, Christians would mock, and would shout, and would be hateful toward your mom. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLess so with your dad, because he wasn\u2019t out of the closet at this point; but your dominant thought was, \u201cChristians are just not worth much.\u201d You wound up at a Bible study in high school, and you went into that Bible study with the intent of wanting to undermine everything that was being taught there. Over time, something shifted in your heart and your thinking.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Yes; because I saw that Jesus was not representative of how people on the street corners were acting. I think today we would say Jesus is not representative of how some Christians act on Facebook<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, social media, or Twitter<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Snapchat, Periscope, or whatever\u2014that Jesus is <em>not<\/em> reflective of that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I think about the people who are on the street corners, I think to myself, \u201cWhat about what Paul said in Romans 2:4, when he says, \u2018Don\u2019t you know that it is the kindness of God that leads to repentance?\u2019 What about what Paul said in \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRomans 12:18: \u2018Live at peace with everyone\u2019?\u201d That doesn\u2019t mean that we agree with everybody, but that means that we\u2019re not going to belittle people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat about what Jesus said in Matthew 5:43-48?\u2014you know: \u201c\u2026love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you\u201d\u2014and by the way\u2014\u201cif you only love those who love you, what reward are you going to get?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI look at the people on the street corners, and really, in my life too\u2014for me, messy grace is ultra-legalistic, fundamentalist Christians. You know, that\u2019s my version of messy grace that I have to love and be mindful about. Am I exemplifying what Paul says in Romans 2 and 12? Am I exemplifying what Jesus says: \u201cIf you only love those who love you, what reward will you get?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I\u2019m glad I had a man in my life who called me to love \/ he called me to truth too; but he said: \u201cThe preeminence of love\u2014it is the banner of being a disciple of Jesus Christ. Yes; we do stand for the truth.\u201d I\u2019ll tell you why that was important in my life, Caleb. You can comment on this, because you\u2019ve undoubtedly run into quite a few guys like me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think I, like a lot of other Christians, have a high need to be right. I don\u2019t think we have a high need to make sure we\u2019re loving. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat, for me, has helped me move from pressing the point of the gospel\u2014which is the truth \/ it is right\u2014but it\u2019s pressed me back to going, \u201cHow do I show love to other people who are broken?\u201d We\u2019re all broken\u2014not just them\u2014I am too. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think, for the most part, we in the Christian community really don\u2019t know how to love people who aren\u2019t like us, and who don\u2019t love us, and who don\u2019t think like us and believe like us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>I think the reason is that it is much easier to make a point \/ it is much harder to love somebody. When you make a point, you can be right. The woman caught in adultery in John, Chapter 8\u2014and the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law, who placed her before Jesus after humiliating her, they did not care about her life\u2014restoring her\/reconciliation. They were willing for her to die for them to be right. In other words, they believed that their theological conviction was a catalyst to allow them to mistreat other people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOur theological convictions must <em>never<\/em> be catalysts to mistreat others. If anything, our theology should drive us to love people and treat them well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think about Jesus, and here\u2019s what Jesus did\u2014here\u2019s what Jesus did\u2014Jesus called the disciples into a discipleship relationship before they even believed He was the Son of God. I\u2019m willing to bet\u2014I don\u2019t know, but I\u2019m willing to bet\u2014that Matthew was not a good synagogue-going boy, in Matthew 9; and yet Jesus still looked at him, despite all that, and said: \u201cHey, you\u2019re coming with Me. Follow Me. I want you to be a part of what I\u2019m doing.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJesus regularly spent time with people, and here\u2019s where I think He models the difference between acceptance and approval. Jesus loved people where they were \/ Jesus loved them for who they were, but Jesus was not content to leave them where they were. He said, \u201cGod has something greater embedded in you that only His sovereignty can bring out.\u201d I think about that and I think to myself: \u201cWe need to do the same thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cWe have to love people where they\u2019re at.\u201d That doesn\u2019t mean we approve of every life choice that somebody makes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Right; right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You began to get a picture of who the real Jesus was as you were going to this Bible study in high school; but it had to dawn on you pretty quickly that, if this was true and if you were going to buy into this idea that the Jesus presented in the Bible is who He says He is\u2014that He\u2019s God \/ that Christianity is true\u2014that\u2019s going to put you at odds with your mom, with your dad, with your mom\u2019s partner. This is going to turn your whole world upside down.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Absolutely. I spent so much time studying what the Bible had to say about marriage relationships, gender, sexuality, intimacy\u2014everything. I came to this conclusion, the one that I still hold today, that God designed sexual intimacy for the expression in marriage between one man and one woman\u2014I believe that today. I believe anything outside of that is a sin. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat it is between a man and a woman in marriage\u2014that\u2019s what God designed intimacy for. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, I also believe, to reinforce what I said earlier, that our biblical beliefs should not allow us to berate anyone. Our biblical beliefs should build us up to the point, where we are willing to love people; because the more that we love God, He gives us margin to love people who seem to be unlovable to us. I think the real mark of Christian maturity is: \u201cHow well can you love those whom you disagree with, don\u2019t like \/ don\u2019t like you, are difficult, or are just plain different than you are?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I\u2019m trying to imagine you coming to this conclusion \/ this understanding of what the Bible has to say about gender, and marriage, and sexuality, and going back to your mom and having the conversation\u2014or to your dad\u2014and saying, \u201cYou know, I\u2019ve come to believe something different.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Imagine how a young teenager, who is gay or same-sex attracted, feels when they come out to their conservative Christian parents. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was a 16-year-old teenager coming out as a Christian to my three gay parents. You would expect love and tolerance; because that\u2019s what my mother, and her partner, and my dad, in his own way, always preached. But I got the opposite\u2014they kicked me out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI went back, eventually, kind of slowly built up that relationship. Again, I realized that the more I loved God, the more margin He gave me to love people who were difficult in my life\u2014I had to forgive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That love was tested; because as you attended the Bible study, you decided to go to church. You went to your dad\u2019s church, and that turned out to be a bit of a surprise to you as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Yes; I went to my dad\u2019s church and\u2014you know, I\u2019d gone off and on. They really didn\u2019t teach the Bible. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen I got invited by a friend of mine, who was a Christian, and his dad was a pastor at a church. I got invited to go to his church. I went, and I found Jesus was preached and talked about much differently. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI found a group of individuals who firmly believed what Jesus said and what Scripture claimed, but also believed that that should never compromise our love for other people. We can\u2019t compromise conviction or love whatsoever. I remember being in this group and seeing them and thinking to myself, \u201cThis is something I could get onboard with.\u201d God just began to develop in me this passion to be able to tell people about the Jesus I discovered.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I want you to take me, if you can \/ if you remember it, to the first conversation you had with your mom or with your dad, where you said, \u201cI\u2019ve started to change my thinking.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>My dad told me that I had spit in the eyes of God, because he had me baptized Episcopalian\/Anglican when I was a kid\/baby. I remember, when I told him, he was so reactionary and angry. I didn\u2019t understand why then. I know now\u2014because he was in the closet, and he was hiding it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I told my mom, on the other hand\u2014I mean, my mom\u2014I love her to death; but drama, drama, drama. My mom\u2014we were driving from Concordia, Missouri\u2014that\u2019s where my parents would meet \/ in Concordia, Missouri, at McDonald\u2019s<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> in between Columbia and Kansas City\u2014my dad dropped me off and looked at my mom and said: \u201cWell, good luck, Mary Lou. You\u2019re going to love this.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI got in and I told my mom. She started crying\u2014just crying, crying, crying. My mom, when we got home, went in; and I stayed in the car, because I didn\u2019t want to go in yet. I waited about 15 minutes, and she told Vera by then. As I said, Vera didn\u2019t get along with me \/ I didn\u2019t get along with her. She was a PhD psychologist, who had a very liberal view, not only on psychology but on <em>everything<\/em>. I sat down; and I remember she asked me, \u201cSo you\u2019re a Christian now, Caleb?\u201d I said, \u201cYes.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt was just very contentious\u2014again, to the point where my mom said, \u201cHey, you\u2019re not going to come back for a while,\u201d\u2014basically kicked me out. My dad had told me the same thing at his house, and it was very difficult.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So you called friends and said, \u201cCan I crash at your house?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You were 16?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Not long after that, someone invited you to a Youth for Christ conference?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Youth for Christ, also known as CIY, Christ in Youth. It was a great conference, but I had never been to a Christian conference. It was so great being with other high schoolers, who were my own age, and getting to know them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember, again, one morning, I woke up and I just couldn\u2019t imagine myself doing anything else other than telling other people about this Jesus whom I had learned about. I mean, I figured I had lived 16 years of my life away from Jesus \/ I want to spend the rest of my life telling other people about Jesus and saying, again: \u201cHe\u2019s not like the people on the street corners!\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA week to the day that I was baptized, I said, \u201cI want to give my life to full-time Christian vocational ministry.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>A week after you were baptized?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Okay; there are folks, who are listening, who are going: \u201cWell, there\u2019s a pattern here. I mean, this guy grows up and he has two moms. One of them doesn\u2019t like him and doesn\u2019t like men in general, and his dad\u2019s in the closet. He\u2019s just looking for a way out of the trauma that he\u2019s been in for 16 years. He\u2019s easy pickings for this kind of stuff.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>But it wasn\u2019t trauma for me. I didn\u2019t want people to know about my mom.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>It was your normal.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>It was my normal! Absolutely! I knew\u2014it was different enough, where I didn\u2019t want to broadcast it in the school\u2014but in no way, shape, or form was I walking around saying, \u201cWoe is me.\u201d I\u2019ll be honest\u2014my mom and her friends were <em>fun<\/em>. They were <em>fun<\/em> people to be around! There were some things that I saw that I shouldn\u2019t have seen; but back in my day, when I would go to somebody\u2019s house for a house party with my mom, I would take my Atari<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, or Commodore 64, or Nintendo<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> \/ original Nintendo Duck Hunt<sup>\u2122<\/sup>, and I would go find a room. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI still saw things that were inappropriate, but I did not have this\u2014at that point\u2014this scarred idea of my life. It wasn\u2019t until after I saw Jesus, and how He set things up, and how He originally created things to be until Adam and Eve rebelled \/ until sin entered the world, that I realized, at that point: \u201cThis was not right. This is not how God designed\u2014this is not God\u2019s best. You cannot have a reflection of Christ\u2019s relationship with the church in any relationship other than a heterosexual relationship.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mean, I realized so many things. And if there\u2019s ever\u2014listen, if there\u2019s ever anybody who wanted to disprove, you know, what the Bible said about sexuality, it was me!\u00a0 I mean, even after I changed my view on sexuality, if somebody brought up a new idea, I would still look at it; because my relationship with my parents was damaged. Why would I go from an environment where I had absolute peace with my parents to now an environment where there was chaos?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Let me ask you about that; because in the last five years, there have been books published presenting an evangelical view that maybe we\u2019ve misunderstood all the texts that you were reading in high school. They say it\u2019s possible to be gay and to believe the Bible and to love Jesus. You\u2019ve seen those books. You\u2019ve read those books; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Oh, absolutely. Here\u2019s what these books do\u2014they have no exegetical or historical ground to stand on. They have to do fancy exegetical footwork \/ they have to do fancy footwork with a background narrative and the backgrounds of the New Testament, especially with Romans 1 and so on and so forth. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey have to do an argument of silence, where they say something like, \u201cHey, Jesus never said anything about same-sex relationships, so that makes it okay.\u201d Well, there are a lot of things that Jesus didn\u2019t say anything about, so \u201cLet me get my list ready,\u201d\u2014you can\u2019t make that argument. I remember, after I came to Christ, having a conversation with a lady who was a dean at a liberal seminary in Kansas City. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy mom \u201csicced\u201d her on me at one of her GLAD events. I still went with my mom when I was a high schooler \/ when I was a Christian, because I wanted an opportunity to tell people about Jesus in different conversations. She [the dean] automatically started challenging me. It really came down to the fact, where she said: \u201cJesus never said <em>anything<\/em> about homosexuality. So that makes it okay.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, we look at it\u2014and you can even get very academic if you want\u2014and say: \u201cWell, Jesus was sent to Israel. In Israel, under a Pharisaical rule, they did not deal with homosexuality like Paul did when he was sent to the Gentiles \/ to the Roman Empire.\u201d That\u2019s another whole ball of wax. If you really want to get exegetical, let\u2019s look at Matthew 19, when Jesus has an opportunity to define marriage as anything other than a man and a woman; and does he? No; He affirms what God says in Genesis 2.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So, here you are. You\u2019re this on-fire 16-year-old, who now has been baptized. You\u2019ve been to a conference and surrendered to God\u2019s call on your life to move into full-time Christian ministry. I can only imagine\u2014when you went back to Columbia\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes\u2014how that news went; yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and back to where your two moms lived in Kansas City, how did those conversations go down?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Well, it went down just about like a lead balloon would. Have you ever ridden a lead balloon before?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Just crashed.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>It crashed. It wouldn\u2019t get up off the air. I mean, I had committed the unpardonable sin; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Becoming a Christian\u2019s one thing \/ now, saying, \u201cI want to be a pastor.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u201cI\u2019m all in.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Well, and you throw on top of that, \u201cHey, I\u2019ve changed my view of sexuality.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>You know\u2014I mean, now I\u2019m one of <em>them<\/em> in their eyes. The people who were supposed to show me tolerance\u2014they were showing my anything but tolerance.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>How did you do, loving your mom in that situation?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>It was difficult at first; but I got encouragement from my friends, saying, \u201cCaleb, you <em>need<\/em> to love her no matter what.\u201d I started reading the New Testament. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhenever I had free time, I was reading, reading, reading, reading\u2014especially the words of Jesus\u2014and then moving on to Romans, so on and so forth. I really latched onto what Jesus said there and the mercy that He said, even in the beatitudes, when Jesus said, \u201cBlessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI cannot own how my mother treats me \/ I cannot own how somebody else reacts to me\u2014what I can own is my own reactions\u2014how I respond and what I do. <em>That<\/em> is what God holds me accountable to. I can own how I\u2019m going to love people, no matter what \/ follow the example of Jesus, when He was hanging on the cross and He said: \u201cFather, forgive them. They don\u2019t know what they\u2019re doing.\u201d Now, if the Son of God, who is innocent, could say that, after everything He was through, I\u2019m pretty sure I could look at my mom and say: \u201cI forgive you. I\u2019m choosing every day not to hold this against you.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I think you\u2019re ministering to some parents, who have children, who\u2019ve come out and who have said, \u201cI think I\u2019m gay.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think you\u2019re also ministering to some family members, who may have been invited to a wedding of a relative in their family, where they\u2019re struggling with, \u201cWhat\u2019s our response to be?\u201d I think you\u2019re also ministering to folks, Caleb, who work in places, where they have close associates, whose lifestyles are different than theirs. You\u2019re exhorting all of us, regardless, to go back to the Book \/ back to the life of Christ and love others the way He loved us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, and I think your example helps there, too, and what you\u2019ve shared with us of your own story, and what you share in your book, <em>Messy Grace<\/em>. I think that gives us a blueprint \/ a living illustration that we can follow and know how to engage with our friends or our family members. We have copies of Caleb\u2019s book, <em>Messy Grace<\/em>, in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can go online to request your copy; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to order a copy of the book, <em>Messy Grace<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, the website: FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI know we probably have some of you, who are tuned in today because this is a holiday week for a lot of folks\u2014people taking time off\u2014and maybe some of you, who don\u2019t normally listen to <em>FamilyLife Today,<\/em> have been able to catch the program. We\u2019re glad that you joined us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> is a non-profit organization. We exist to effectively develop godly marriages and families. We believe those godly marriages and families can change the world, one home at a time. This daily radio program is just one aspect of all that we do, here, at FamilyLife. All that we do, here, at FamilyLife is possible because friends, like you, make it possible. We are listener-supported; and your donations help cover, not only the cost of producing and syndicating this program, but all of the outreaches of FamilyLife. All that we\u2019re involved with couldn\u2019t happen without your support. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you\u2019re a regular listener, and you\u2019ve never made a donation, we\u2019d love to have you join the team that supports this ministry. If you\u2019re a first-time listener, or a new listener, we hope you\u2019ll continue to tune in; and you can download the FamilyLife app from your app store. Just type in FamilyLife as one word and that will give you immediate access to our program every day, so you can listen to it on your time schedule.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTo donate, go to FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014you can donate online\u2014or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation over the phone. You can always mail your donation to us as well. Our address is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. By the way, let me just say we believe that your first priority, when it comes to giving, needs to be your local church; so make sure that you\u2019re investing well there before you do anything to help support this ministry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope you can join us back tomorrow when Caleb Kaltenbach will be here again. We\u2019re going to talk about how we should interact with friends, coworkers, neighbors\u2014people who we know who identify as LGBT. How do we let them know who we are, and what we believe, and how do we build a relationship there? We\u2019ll talk about that tomorrow. I hope you can tune in.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:27:23"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["25.07M"],"filesize_raw":["26288482"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-305400.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-305400.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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Kaltenbach tells what it was like growing up with a gay mom and a gay dad, and how his attempt to prove that the Bible was false actually started him on a walk of faith.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-07-03.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>How ought we live, as followers of Jesus, in a culture that is moving away from a biblical foundation for life? Caleb Kaltenbach says Jesus demonstrated what life looks like, full of grace and truth.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>I think another way to say it is that there is a big difference between acceptance and approval. I think that we have to understand that, not just with the LGBT community, but we are moving into a culture where people go with whatever they want to do. There are going to be new things that come out that just really scare Christians, and we don\u2019t know how to handle it. We think: \u201cOkay; do I keep my relationship with this person? Do I not?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s not just the LGBT issue; there are so many issues that are going to come down the pipeline. We have to understand that we are missionaries, and there is a difference between acceptance and approval; and there\u2019s a tension between grace and truth.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, July 3<sup>rd<\/sup>. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you\u2019ve found that life is getting harder to navigate, as a follower of Christ, we\u2019ll see if we can help with some directions today. Stay with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. You know, years ago, there was a lot of controversy around a children\u2019s book that had found its way into libraries. I think it was called <em>Heather Has Two Mommies. <\/em>It was a children\u2019s book designed to provide a picture of normalization for a child who might be growing up in a household where there were two mommies or two daddies, trying to present that as maybe a new normal.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have somebody with us today for whom that was the normal, growing up in a home with two mommies part of the time and with a bachelor dad the other part of the time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes; and Caleb, I just want to say, \u201cThanks for being on our broadcast and sharing your story.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCaleb Kaltenbach joins us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Caleb, welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>It\u2019s great to be back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>He\u2019s written a book called <em>Messy Grace: How a Pastor with Gay Parents Learned to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction.<\/em> The reason I just appreciate you being on the show, talking about this, is I think there are a lot of people, like me, who may not have a lot of gay friends; or if we do, we don\u2019t know it. We need coaching \/ we need understanding. We need someone to take us near and begin the journey for us. I feel like your book did that for me. I really liked being able to peer into your family, where you were raised by two moms and your dad, who later came out as a homosexual as well. You were raised in the midst of no faith \/ no Christian worldview.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think we\u2019re clueless!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tReally, the Christian community\u2019s not really wise about who our audience is, and where they are, and where they aren\u2019t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>No; absolutely. I think that we have come to a point in our nation where we have to realize that we are the away team. We are not the home team anymore. We realize that more than ever at our church. We firmly believe in the inerrancy of Scripture \/ we believe in God\u2019s sovereignty\u2014we believe in all these things\u2014but we\u2019re all very intentional in being missionaries in our context \/ missionaries in Southern California and understanding, as we talked about earlier, that not everybody is at the same point in the spiritual journey. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe just surveyed our church three weeks ago and found out that 42 percent of our attendants, on any given Sunday, is unchurched\u2014meaning that we\u2019re the first church they\u2019ve been to or they haven\u2019t been since they were a kid\u2014because we\u2019re so intentional about going after the lost sheep that Jesus talks about in Luke 15:1-7. But we do that without compromising the gospel and the message; because we have to learn where we are, and we have to understand\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014I think, specifically with this issue, or any other issue that we\u2019re dealing with\u2014that there\u2019s a <em>huge<\/em> tension between grace and truth. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think another way to say it is that there is a big difference between acceptance and approval. I think that we have to understand that, not just with the LGBT community, but we are moving into a culture where people go with whatever they want to do. There are going to be new things that come out that just really scare Christians, and we don\u2019t know how to handle it. We think: \u201cOkay; do I keep my relationship with this person? Do I not?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s not just the LGBT issue; there are so many issues that are going to come down the pipeline. We have to understand that we are missionaries, and there is a difference between acceptance and approval; and there is a tension between grace and truth.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You\u2019ve already shared with us that your impression of Christians, growing up, was that they were bigoted\/hateful. When you were with your mom, Christians would mock, and would shout, and would be hateful toward your mom. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLess so with your dad, because he wasn\u2019t out of the closet at this point; but your dominant thought was, \u201cChristians are just not worth much.\u201d You wound up at a Bible study in high school, and you went into that Bible study with the intent of wanting to undermine everything that was being taught there. Over time, something shifted in your heart and your thinking.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Yes; because I saw that Jesus was not representative of how people on the street corners were acting. I think today we would say Jesus is not representative of how some Christians act on Facebook<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, social media, or Twitter<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Snapchat, Periscope, or whatever\u2014that Jesus is <em>not<\/em> reflective of that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I think about the people who are on the street corners, I think to myself, \u201cWhat about what Paul said in Romans 2:4, when he says, \u2018Don\u2019t you know that it is the kindness of God that leads to repentance?\u2019 What about what Paul said in \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRomans 12:18: \u2018Live at peace with everyone\u2019?\u201d That doesn\u2019t mean that we agree with everybody, but that means that we\u2019re not going to belittle people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat about what Jesus said in Matthew 5:43-48?\u2014you know: \u201c\u2026love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you\u201d\u2014and by the way\u2014\u201cif you only love those who love you, what reward are you going to get?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI look at the people on the street corners, and really, in my life too\u2014for me, messy grace is ultra-legalistic, fundamentalist Christians. You know, that\u2019s my version of messy grace that I have to love and be mindful about. Am I exemplifying what Paul says in Romans 2 and 12? Am I exemplifying what Jesus says: \u201cIf you only love those who love you, what reward will you get?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I\u2019m glad I had a man in my life who called me to love \/ he called me to truth too; but he said: \u201cThe preeminence of love\u2014it is the banner of being a disciple of Jesus Christ. Yes; we do stand for the truth.\u201d I\u2019ll tell you why that was important in my life, Caleb. You can comment on this, because you\u2019ve undoubtedly run into quite a few guys like me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think I, like a lot of other Christians, have a high need to be right. I don\u2019t think we have a high need to make sure we\u2019re loving. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat, for me, has helped me move from pressing the point of the gospel\u2014which is the truth \/ it is right\u2014but it\u2019s pressed me back to going, \u201cHow do I show love to other people who are broken?\u201d We\u2019re all broken\u2014not just them\u2014I am too. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think, for the most part, we in the Christian community really don\u2019t know how to love people who aren\u2019t like us, and who don\u2019t love us, and who don\u2019t think like us and believe like us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>I think the reason is that it is much easier to make a point \/ it is much harder to love somebody. When you make a point, you can be right. The woman caught in adultery in John, Chapter 8\u2014and the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law, who placed her before Jesus after humiliating her, they did not care about her life\u2014restoring her\/reconciliation. They were willing for her to die for them to be right. In other words, they believed that their theological conviction was a catalyst to allow them to mistreat other people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOur theological convictions must <em>never<\/em> be catalysts to mistreat others. If anything, our theology should drive us to love people and treat them well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think about Jesus, and here\u2019s what Jesus did\u2014here\u2019s what Jesus did\u2014Jesus called the disciples into a discipleship relationship before they even believed He was the Son of God. I\u2019m willing to bet\u2014I don\u2019t know, but I\u2019m willing to bet\u2014that Matthew was not a good synagogue-going boy, in Matthew 9; and yet Jesus still looked at him, despite all that, and said: \u201cHey, you\u2019re coming with Me. Follow Me. I want you to be a part of what I\u2019m doing.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJesus regularly spent time with people, and here\u2019s where I think He models the difference between acceptance and approval. Jesus loved people where they were \/ Jesus loved them for who they were, but Jesus was not content to leave them where they were. He said, \u201cGod has something greater embedded in you that only His sovereignty can bring out.\u201d I think about that and I think to myself: \u201cWe need to do the same thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cWe have to love people where they\u2019re at.\u201d That doesn\u2019t mean we approve of every life choice that somebody makes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Right; right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You began to get a picture of who the real Jesus was as you were going to this Bible study in high school; but it had to dawn on you pretty quickly that, if this was true and if you were going to buy into this idea that the Jesus presented in the Bible is who He says He is\u2014that He\u2019s God \/ that Christianity is true\u2014that\u2019s going to put you at odds with your mom, with your dad, with your mom\u2019s partner. This is going to turn your whole world upside down.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Absolutely. I spent so much time studying what the Bible had to say about marriage relationships, gender, sexuality, intimacy\u2014everything. I came to this conclusion, the one that I still hold today, that God designed sexual intimacy for the expression in marriage between one man and one woman\u2014I believe that today. I believe anything outside of that is a sin. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat it is between a man and a woman in marriage\u2014that\u2019s what God designed intimacy for. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, I also believe, to reinforce what I said earlier, that our biblical beliefs should not allow us to berate anyone. Our biblical beliefs should build us up to the point, where we are willing to love people; because the more that we love God, He gives us margin to love people who seem to be unlovable to us. I think the real mark of Christian maturity is: \u201cHow well can you love those whom you disagree with, don\u2019t like \/ don\u2019t like you, are difficult, or are just plain different than you are?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I\u2019m trying to imagine you coming to this conclusion \/ this understanding of what the Bible has to say about gender, and marriage, and sexuality, and going back to your mom and having the conversation\u2014or to your dad\u2014and saying, \u201cYou know, I\u2019ve come to believe something different.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Imagine how a young teenager, who is gay or same-sex attracted, feels when they come out to their conservative Christian parents. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was a 16-year-old teenager coming out as a Christian to my three gay parents. You would expect love and tolerance; because that\u2019s what my mother, and her partner, and my dad, in his own way, always preached. But I got the opposite\u2014they kicked me out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI went back, eventually, kind of slowly built up that relationship. Again, I realized that the more I loved God, the more margin He gave me to love people who were difficult in my life\u2014I had to forgive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That love was tested; because as you attended the Bible study, you decided to go to church. You went to your dad\u2019s church, and that turned out to be a bit of a surprise to you as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Yes; I went to my dad\u2019s church and\u2014you know, I\u2019d gone off and on. They really didn\u2019t teach the Bible. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen I got invited by a friend of mine, who was a Christian, and his dad was a pastor at a church. I got invited to go to his church. I went, and I found Jesus was preached and talked about much differently. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI found a group of individuals who firmly believed what Jesus said and what Scripture claimed, but also believed that that should never compromise our love for other people. We can\u2019t compromise conviction or love whatsoever. I remember being in this group and seeing them and thinking to myself, \u201cThis is something I could get onboard with.\u201d God just began to develop in me this passion to be able to tell people about the Jesus I discovered.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I want you to take me, if you can \/ if you remember it, to the first conversation you had with your mom or with your dad, where you said, \u201cI\u2019ve started to change my thinking.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>My dad told me that I had spit in the eyes of God, because he had me baptized Episcopalian\/Anglican when I was a kid\/baby. I remember, when I told him, he was so reactionary and angry. I didn\u2019t understand why then. I know now\u2014because he was in the closet, and he was hiding it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I told my mom, on the other hand\u2014I mean, my mom\u2014I love her to death; but drama, drama, drama. My mom\u2014we were driving from Concordia, Missouri\u2014that\u2019s where my parents would meet \/ in Concordia, Missouri, at McDonald\u2019s<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> in between Columbia and Kansas City\u2014my dad dropped me off and looked at my mom and said: \u201cWell, good luck, Mary Lou. You\u2019re going to love this.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI got in and I told my mom. She started crying\u2014just crying, crying, crying. My mom, when we got home, went in; and I stayed in the car, because I didn\u2019t want to go in yet. I waited about 15 minutes, and she told Vera by then. As I said, Vera didn\u2019t get along with me \/ I didn\u2019t get along with her. She was a PhD psychologist, who had a very liberal view, not only on psychology but on <em>everything<\/em>. I sat down; and I remember she asked me, \u201cSo you\u2019re a Christian now, Caleb?\u201d I said, \u201cYes.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt was just very contentious\u2014again, to the point where my mom said, \u201cHey, you\u2019re not going to come back for a while,\u201d\u2014basically kicked me out. My dad had told me the same thing at his house, and it was very difficult.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So you called friends and said, \u201cCan I crash at your house?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You were 16?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Not long after that, someone invited you to a Youth for Christ conference?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Youth for Christ, also known as CIY, Christ in Youth. It was a great conference, but I had never been to a Christian conference. It was so great being with other high schoolers, who were my own age, and getting to know them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember, again, one morning, I woke up and I just couldn\u2019t imagine myself doing anything else other than telling other people about this Jesus whom I had learned about. I mean, I figured I had lived 16 years of my life away from Jesus \/ I want to spend the rest of my life telling other people about Jesus and saying, again: \u201cHe\u2019s not like the people on the street corners!\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA week to the day that I was baptized, I said, \u201cI want to give my life to full-time Christian vocational ministry.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>A week after you were baptized?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Okay; there are folks, who are listening, who are going: \u201cWell, there\u2019s a pattern here. I mean, this guy grows up and he has two moms. One of them doesn\u2019t like him and doesn\u2019t like men in general, and his dad\u2019s in the closet. He\u2019s just looking for a way out of the trauma that he\u2019s been in for 16 years. He\u2019s easy pickings for this kind of stuff.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>But it wasn\u2019t trauma for me. I didn\u2019t want people to know about my mom.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>It was your normal.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>It was my normal! Absolutely! I knew\u2014it was different enough, where I didn\u2019t want to broadcast it in the school\u2014but in no way, shape, or form was I walking around saying, \u201cWoe is me.\u201d I\u2019ll be honest\u2014my mom and her friends were <em>fun<\/em>. They were <em>fun<\/em> people to be around! There were some things that I saw that I shouldn\u2019t have seen; but back in my day, when I would go to somebody\u2019s house for a house party with my mom, I would take my Atari<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, or Commodore 64, or Nintendo<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> \/ original Nintendo Duck Hunt<sup>\u2122<\/sup>, and I would go find a room. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI still saw things that were inappropriate, but I did not have this\u2014at that point\u2014this scarred idea of my life. It wasn\u2019t until after I saw Jesus, and how He set things up, and how He originally created things to be until Adam and Eve rebelled \/ until sin entered the world, that I realized, at that point: \u201cThis was not right. This is not how God designed\u2014this is not God\u2019s best. You cannot have a reflection of Christ\u2019s relationship with the church in any relationship other than a heterosexual relationship.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mean, I realized so many things. And if there\u2019s ever\u2014listen, if there\u2019s ever anybody who wanted to disprove, you know, what the Bible said about sexuality, it was me!\u00a0 I mean, even after I changed my view on sexuality, if somebody brought up a new idea, I would still look at it; because my relationship with my parents was damaged. Why would I go from an environment where I had absolute peace with my parents to now an environment where there was chaos?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Let me ask you about that; because in the last five years, there have been books published presenting an evangelical view that maybe we\u2019ve misunderstood all the texts that you were reading in high school. They say it\u2019s possible to be gay and to believe the Bible and to love Jesus. You\u2019ve seen those books. You\u2019ve read those books; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Oh, absolutely. Here\u2019s what these books do\u2014they have no exegetical or historical ground to stand on. They have to do fancy exegetical footwork \/ they have to do fancy footwork with a background narrative and the backgrounds of the New Testament, especially with Romans 1 and so on and so forth. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey have to do an argument of silence, where they say something like, \u201cHey, Jesus never said anything about same-sex relationships, so that makes it okay.\u201d Well, there are a lot of things that Jesus didn\u2019t say anything about, so \u201cLet me get my list ready,\u201d\u2014you can\u2019t make that argument. I remember, after I came to Christ, having a conversation with a lady who was a dean at a liberal seminary in Kansas City. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy mom \u201csicced\u201d her on me at one of her GLAD events. I still went with my mom when I was a high schooler \/ when I was a Christian, because I wanted an opportunity to tell people about Jesus in different conversations. She [the dean] automatically started challenging me. It really came down to the fact, where she said: \u201cJesus never said <em>anything<\/em> about homosexuality. So that makes it okay.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, we look at it\u2014and you can even get very academic if you want\u2014and say: \u201cWell, Jesus was sent to Israel. In Israel, under a Pharisaical rule, they did not deal with homosexuality like Paul did when he was sent to the Gentiles \/ to the Roman Empire.\u201d That\u2019s another whole ball of wax. If you really want to get exegetical, let\u2019s look at Matthew 19, when Jesus has an opportunity to define marriage as anything other than a man and a woman; and does he? No; He affirms what God says in Genesis 2.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So, here you are. You\u2019re this on-fire 16-year-old, who now has been baptized. You\u2019ve been to a conference and surrendered to God\u2019s call on your life to move into full-time Christian ministry. I can only imagine\u2014when you went back to Columbia\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes\u2014how that news went; yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and back to where your two moms lived in Kansas City, how did those conversations go down?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Well, it went down just about like a lead balloon would. Have you ever ridden a lead balloon before?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Just crashed.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>It crashed. It wouldn\u2019t get up off the air. I mean, I had committed the unpardonable sin; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Becoming a Christian\u2019s one thing \/ now, saying, \u201cI want to be a pastor.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u201cI\u2019m all in.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>Well, and you throw on top of that, \u201cHey, I\u2019ve changed my view of sexuality.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>You know\u2014I mean, now I\u2019m one of <em>them<\/em> in their eyes. The people who were supposed to show me tolerance\u2014they were showing my anything but tolerance.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>How did you do, loving your mom in that situation?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Caleb: <\/strong>It was difficult at first; but I got encouragement from my friends, saying, \u201cCaleb, you <em>need<\/em> to love her no matter what.\u201d I started reading the New Testament. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhenever I had free time, I was reading, reading, reading, reading\u2014especially the words of Jesus\u2014and then moving on to Romans, so on and so forth. I really latched onto what Jesus said there and the mercy that He said, even in the beatitudes, when Jesus said, \u201cBlessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI cannot own how my mother treats me \/ I cannot own how somebody else reacts to me\u2014what I can own is my own reactions\u2014how I respond and what I do. <em>That<\/em> is what God holds me accountable to. I can own how I\u2019m going to love people, no matter what \/ follow the example of Jesus, when He was hanging on the cross and He said: \u201cFather, forgive them. They don\u2019t know what they\u2019re doing.\u201d Now, if the Son of God, who is innocent, could say that, after everything He was through, I\u2019m pretty sure I could look at my mom and say: \u201cI forgive you. I\u2019m choosing every day not to hold this against you.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I think you\u2019re ministering to some parents, who have children, who\u2019ve come out and who have said, \u201cI think I\u2019m gay.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think you\u2019re also ministering to some family members, who may have been invited to a wedding of a relative in their family, where they\u2019re struggling with, \u201cWhat\u2019s our response to be?\u201d I think you\u2019re also ministering to folks, Caleb, who work in places, where they have close associates, whose lifestyles are different than theirs. You\u2019re exhorting all of us, regardless, to go back to the Book \/ back to the life of Christ and love others the way He loved us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, and I think your example helps there, too, and what you\u2019ve shared with us of your own story, and what you share in your book, <em>Messy Grace<\/em>. I think that gives us a blueprint \/ a living illustration that we can follow and know how to engage with our friends or our family members. We have copies of Caleb\u2019s book, <em>Messy Grace<\/em>, in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can go online to request your copy; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to order a copy of the book, <em>Messy Grace<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, the website: FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI know we probably have some of you, who are tuned in today because this is a holiday week for a lot of folks\u2014people taking time off\u2014and maybe some of you, who don\u2019t normally listen to <em>FamilyLife Today,<\/em> have been able to catch the program. We\u2019re glad that you joined us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> is a non-profit organization. We exist to effectively develop godly marriages and families. We believe those godly marriages and families can change the world, one home at a time. This daily radio program is just one aspect of all that we do, here, at FamilyLife. All that we do, here, at FamilyLife is possible because friends, like you, make it possible. We are listener-supported; and your donations help cover, not only the cost of producing and syndicating this program, but all of the outreaches of FamilyLife. All that we\u2019re involved with couldn\u2019t happen without your support. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you\u2019re a regular listener, and you\u2019ve never made a donation, we\u2019d love to have you join the team that supports this ministry. If you\u2019re a first-time listener, or a new listener, we hope you\u2019ll continue to tune in; and you can download the FamilyLife app from your app store. Just type in FamilyLife as one word and that will give you immediate access to our program every day, so you can listen to it on your time schedule.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTo donate, go to FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014you can donate online\u2014or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation over the phone. You can always mail your donation to us as well. Our address is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. By the way, let me just say we believe that your first priority, when it comes to giving, needs to be your local church; so make sure that you\u2019re investing well there before you do anything to help support this ministry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope you can join us back tomorrow when Caleb Kaltenbach will be here again. We\u2019re going to talk about how we should interact with friends, coworkers, neighbors\u2014people who we know who identify as LGBT. How do we let them know who we are, and what we believe, and how do we build a relationship there? We\u2019ll talk about that tomorrow. I hope you can tune in.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/305400","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=305400"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=305400"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=305400"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=305400"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=305400"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=305400"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=305400"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}