{"id":305332,"date":"2019-09-09T06:00:04","date_gmt":"2019-09-09T10:00:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/understanding-the-song-of-songs\/"},"modified":"2019-09-09T06:00:04","modified_gmt":"2019-09-09T10:00:04","slug":"understanding-the-song-of-songs","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/understanding-the-song-of-songs\/","title":{"rendered":"Understanding the Song of Songs"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Phil Ryken discusses the greatest love song that has ever been written: the Song of Songs. Ryken shows us how Solomon&#8217;s passion for his bride mirrors Christ&#8217;s passion for us, on &#8220;FamilyLife Today.&#8221;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-09-09.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:40","filesize":"25.33M","filesize_raw":"26557282","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2822,2088],"tags":[2976,6714,5449,4207],"podcast_series":[8300],"cwp_profile":[9311],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-305332","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growing-in-your-faith","category-romance-and-sex","tag-christian-marriage","tag-song-of-solomon","tag-song-of-songs","tag-wedding","podcast_series-the-love-of-loves-in-the-song-of-songs","cwp_profile-philip-graham-ryken","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/305332\/understanding-the-song-of-songs","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/305332\/understanding-the-song-of-songs","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"Y8KDKSRfOI\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/understanding-the-song-of-songs\/\">Understanding the Song of Songs<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/understanding-the-song-of-songs\/embed\/#?secret=Y8KDKSRfOI\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Understanding the Song of Songs&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"Y8KDKSRfOI\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-09-09.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-09-09.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Dr. Phil Ryken, who's the president of Wheaton College, says, when we read the Song of Solomon, we should see parallels between human love and our relationship with God. He says that you'd never know that's the case from where the book starts. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil:<\/strong> I read the first verse and I'm like, \u201cWhew! Does anybody else think it's getting warm in here?\u201d [Laughter] It's not just a kiss; it's \u201ckisses she wants.\u201d She wants them on the mouth. I mean, there's an intensity and a passion here, right from the beginning. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tObviously, this is human-level romance he's talking about\u2014physical attraction\/sexual desire. We shouldn't try to interpret the kisses relate to something specific in our relationship with Christ\u2014it's more big picture. Human-level romance is teaching about our passion for Christ\/His passion for us\u2014the intimacy of that relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, September 9<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. So, what can we learn from the Bible?\u2014from the Song of Solomon about marital love?\u2014and about God's love for us? We're going to explore that today with Dr. Phil Ryken. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I'm excited about our guest, and I'm excited about the topic we're going to be talking about today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Why is that, Bob?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, the topic\u2014because it's a biblical topic\u2014and because it's an exciting topic; right? Don't you agree?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I don't know. What topic are we talking about today, Bob? [Laughter] I want to hear you say it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Me, too; he's trying to throw us under the bus.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We are talking about the greatest love song ever written, and that's what the Bible claims. It's the Song of Songs\u2014right?\u2014written by King Solomon. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I thought he was going to say, \u201c<em>Can't Buy Me Love<\/em>\u2014[Laughter]\u2014greatest love song every written.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>No; I wouldn't say so.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> No; this is the greatest love song every written. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And before we dive into talking about that, I want to make sure our regular <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners know that, this week and next week, they have the opportunity to sign up for the greatest <em>weekend<\/em> they can have this fall. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yep.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Sign up to attend an upcoming <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup>marriage getaway. We're going to be hosting getaways in more than three dozen cities across the country this fall. If you sign up this week or next week to attend a getaway, you and your spouse will save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. And really, there's nothing better you could do for your marriage, than for the two of you to get away for a weekend this fall and just spend time together, learning about God's design for marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere's information about the <em>Weekend to Remember <\/em>on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com. You can call if you have any questions or if you want to find out when it's coming to a city near where you live. The number is 1-800-FL-TODAY to take advantage of the special half-price offer for the <em>Weekend to Remember <\/em>marriage getaway. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com and register today, or call to register at 1-800-FL-TODAY; and then we'll see you at an upcoming getaway. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, back to the greatest love song every written. We have, to talk about that with us today, the president of Wheaton College, Dr. Phil Ryken, who is joining us. Dr. Ryken, welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em> \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Yes; it's great to see you, Bob, and really great to be here with Dave and Ann. I appreciate your work. And it's great to talk about the greatest of all songs.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That's right. I've followed you since your days at Tenth Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia. You were the pastor there; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil:<\/strong> Yes; 15 years in downtown Philadelphia. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And then you took a job as your dad's boss. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Yes; actually, I like to think of it as my dad's boss\u2019s, boss\u2019s boss. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Why is that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>He's been teaching at Wheaton for 51 years. His boss would be the Department Chair, and the Department Chair's boss would be the Dean of Humanities, and the Dean of Humanities boss would be the Provost, and the Provost's boss would be me. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, he's a little down the food chain there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Yes; well, in a way; but you know, your dad is still your dad.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> When my daughter\u2014who, by the way, has her masters from Wheaton\u2014we were looking at undergraduate schools; Wheaton was one that we considered. When we got to campus for a campus visit, she and I were both excited because she got to sit in on one of your dad's classes,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Oh, great! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014and your dad's legendary!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>What did he teach?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>He teaches English Literature. He's semi-retired; he retired at age 70\u2014that was 7 years ago. He's been teaching one class a semester since then\u2014still doing a lot of writing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>In 1984, he wrote a book called <em>How to Read the Bible as Literature<\/em> that is a classic. It helps you understand how to understand the Bible\u2014the specific genre of the literary work of the Bible; it's fascinating. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Interesting; that makes me want to get it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>When you were being sought out as the possible president at Wheaton, you obviously called your dad and said, \u201cWhat do you think?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Yes; my dad loved the pastoral ministry I was doing in Philadelphia. He knew those burdens are heavy\u2014you both [Bob and Dave] know that\u2014all the challenges of ministry. But these burdens are heavier, in many ways; and he knew that would be the case. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, what do you want for your children? You want them to follow the Lord\u2014that's the main thing\u2014but, if you could, you'd preserve them from hardship and difficulty\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That's true. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil:<\/strong> \u2014and just be in that sweet, happy good place in life; so he had mixed feelings about it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I know this is a little off subject; but I just have to say\u2014being a university president\/a college president at an evangelical institution today\u2014you are facing some significant challenges. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Yes; I mean, that's probably a radio show for another day; but college presidencies have become <em>extremely<\/em> difficult jobs\u2014it's why there's such high turnover. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think you're right\u2014any role, where you're on the front lines of ministry\u2014and that's true for every person, right here, in this conversation\u2014because we're trying to present biblical truth. You're on the front lines of spiritual warfare, so that's going to be contested; and you're going to face all the other difficulties that everybody faces in life. [Laughter] But there are going to be some additional burdens, challenges, heartaches with that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, I hope our listeners will pray for you and pray for Wheaton\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014because we need\u2014I say we; the church\/the body of Christ\u2014needs Christian institutions, like Wheaton: that are faithful to the Word of God, that are discipling and training and equipping the minds and the hearts of young people. We're grateful that you do that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil:<\/strong> Yes; thank you. And I praise God\u2014you know, we're part of a Christian higher education movement. There are, just within the council of Christian colleges and universities, 50,000 young men and women that graduate from our schools every year\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil:<\/strong> \u2014and have an opportunity to go out and change the world for Jesus Christ.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Exciting.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil:<\/strong> And Bob, one of the things that they need to be thinking about is their love relationship with Jesus Christ and, in many cases, how to really flourish in marriage relationships.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCan I bring us back to our topic?! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Oh! Look, he\u2019s an expert in transition! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Hey, Bob, I think you've been replaced. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil:<\/strong> I'm just trying to be a good guest here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, that's the perfect segue into the book that you've recently written called <em>The Love of Loves in the Song of Songs<\/em>, which is an extended meditation on the greatest song ever written\u2014the Song of Solomon. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLast time you were here, we talked about 1 Corinthians 13; so this issue of understanding love\u2014God's love\/human love\u2014this is something that's been on your heart for a long time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Yes; and I'll say something I probably said when we visited before, Bob. The topics I write on\u2014they're not the topics I'm good at. [Laughter] They're the topics I need to work on, so we're right back where we were\u2014working on growing our love for God and our love for others\u2014specifically, in the context of marriage; although really, the Song of Songs is not limited to that. It has wider application for all of us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And let's start with that, because there's been theological controversy about how to interpret this book for centuries. Wasn't it Spurgeon who thought this was completely allegory and had nothing to do with human romantic love?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Yes, and that's not an uncommon view. Some of the early church fathers had that \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tview. When Bernard of Clairvaux did\u2014what was it?\u201472 sermons on the Song of Solomon for the chaste monks in France, it wasn't a sort of human level\u2014\u201cHere's how you work out your marriage,\u201d\u2014kind of book at all. It was all about the soul's romance; ultimately, with Jesus Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think it's really both\/and in this regard\u2014obviously, this is a human-level romance\u2014this woman that's fallen in love with this man\u2014to some degree\u2014the story of their love relationship and the people in their community around them, and how they're involved. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut anytime we're talking about love, and romance, and marriage\u2014there's a bigger biblical story here\u2014which, I like to say the Bible starts with a blind date [Laughter] and it ends with a wedding reception. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil:<\/strong> It takes a while to kind of unpack all of that; but, you know, it begins with God presenting a woman to a man. What is the first thing he does? He starts speaking poetry\u2014love poetry: \u201cThis now is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe can talk about the way the Bible unfolds this great mystery; but one of the main ways that God talks about His relationship with us\u2014the main metaphor, image, picture of it\u2014is this love relationship\/a marriage relationship; ultimately culminating, at the very end of the Bible, in the wedding supper of the Lamb and the celebration that's around that. That's a big frame around our whole Christian experience. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEven when we're in a book like the Song of Songs\u2014actually, there's <em>no<\/em> book like the Song of Songs\u2014[Laughter]\u2014but even when we're in the Song of Songs,and we're talking about a lot of things at a human level\u2014very familiar from our experiences\u2014there's a bigger picture, and this is a pointer to our love relationship with Jesus Christ. Like a lot of things in the Bible, there's a lot going on: it's multi-dimension; it's operating on a couple of different levels. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I really liked how you did that in your book, because I've read\u2014I don't know if I've read as many as Bob has\u2014on this topic, the Song of Songs. [Laughter] But I've read several books on the Song of Solomon. I didn't get out of them what you did, in terms of\u2014you kept it horizontal: \u201cHere's the relationship, on the earthly plane, about a love between a husband and wife.\u201d But then, you always kept going vertical and saying: \u201cBut this is a bigger thing.\u201d Talk about that\u2014you just did a little bit. You wouldn't let that go\u2014every chapter, you bring it back to remind us: \u201cThis is bigger than just a man and a woman.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>For a couple of reasons. One thing is that, anytime that I'm teaching the Scriptures, I always want to have, not in the background, but actually in the forefront of my thinking: the cross and the empty tomb; the gospel; the saving work of Jesus Christ\u2014His death for our sins; His resurrection for our eternal life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI believe the whole Bible is Christ-centered. We've got to read the Bible\u2014I mean, this is getting back to how to read the Bible as literature\u2014we've got to read each part of the Bible, as the part of the Bible that it is\/according to the literature that it is\u2014we also have to see it in the big story of God's redemption. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI take very seriously what Paul does in Ephesians, Chapter 5; because, here, you have Paul talking explicitly about marriage; which by the way, the Bible rarely does. What it does say, therefore, is hugely important; and it gives you the broad principles which you then have a lot of freedom to work out in the shape of the way that God has made you and your relationship. Here's one of the places\u2014Ephesians Chapter 5\u2014there's a lot about marriage right there. At the end of that, Paul says, almost dismissively: \u201cOh, by the way, what I'm really talking about\u201d\u2014yes, we've been talking on the horizontal level\u2014\u201cI\u2019m really talking about Christ and the church.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think that has broader application than just to Ephesians Chapter 5. Paul is elevating things and saying that we always have to keep in mind this love relationship between God and His people. You come to the gospels\u2014the Messiah comes; and basically, the groom is walking into the room\u2014He's the bridegroom. He's the bridegroom in the context of the whole story that the Bible has been developing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI like to think of the Song of Songs as the soundtrack for a romance that's been building, from the beginning of Genesis, and is going to find it's culmination in eternity.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I think it's easy to do that with other books of the Bible; however, I've talked to so many women that\u2014with this book, the Song of Songs\u2014this is a difficult one, because Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. They're thinking, \u201cI don't even like to hear teaching from this book\u2014it doesn't even make sense\u2014and that's God's relationship with us?\u201d How do you answer those questions?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>A couple of things on that. First of all, I think it is a difficult book. But I also think, rather than staying away from the difficult things, we should be leaning into them. That's why we need resources to help us and to give us a guide. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat I will say about Solomon is a couple of things. First of all, Solomon had a <em>thousand<\/em> times too many relationships. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>That's a good way to put it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>And that's evident from the story as it's told in Kings. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn the other hand, we know that Solomon was renowned for his wisdom. He had a beautiful way with words; he was a poet as well as a king. I think we can definitely take the Song of Solomon as Solomonic, possibly something he wrote. The way that it's expressed in the Hebrew is a little looser than that, so it could be kind of \u201cof Solomon\u201d\u2014like: \u201cof Solomon's court.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think another way of possibly looking at this\u2014here's an analogy\u2014just think about how fascinated people are with royal weddings from England. You know, people get up early; they'll have parties; they may even do something in their wedding, which they saw done in the royal wedding.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>It's true. You guys may not know that, but it's very true. Women will get up at \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t3 a.m. to watch these weddings. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>There's something about a wedding, which has a royal quality to it anyway. I mean, this is the prince and the princess\u2014they're coming together. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt may be that this love relationship, which is kind of a rural relationship between this country girl\u2014you know, maybe, it is literally Solomon; but maybe, it's sort of set in the context of the Solomonic court to elevate\/to see the dignity and beauty of this relationship. That's another way of looking at the Song of Solomon.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI definitely would not let Solomon himself be a stumbling block; because I think that, if you start doing that\u2014who in the Bible isn't a stumbling block?\u2014only Jesus isn't. That's one of the ways we get pointed back to Him, again and again, in the Scriptures. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We assume that this book is talking about Solomon himself because the king keeps being referenced. If it's a rural girl and somebody else, they wouldn't call him the king; would they?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>I think that's one of the strong reasons for thinking that this does have Solomonic authorship. I'm just trying to tease out some of the possibilities here. Particularly\u2014I don't know if it's Chapter 4, possibly\u2014there's this royal procession. The king is coming, and he's obviously there for the wedding; and that's the context. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; when we get to verses in the Song of Solomonlike, \u201cLet him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth\u201d, and it starts to get kind of steamy, should we interpret that as somehow our relationship with God? Should we write worship songs that talk about sloppy wet kisses? Is that what we're supposed to do?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Please, no. [Laughter] It's interesting that you say, \u201cWhen we get to verses\u2026\u201d Bob; because that's actually the first verse. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Good point.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>We're having a good conversation here; we haven't even gotten past verse 1. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI read verse 1\u2014one thing to say about the book\u2014these are chapel talks that I gave at Wheaton, and then there's a revision process. I like to get people's input, and improve them, and things like that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI read the first verse and I'm like, \u201cWhew. Does anybody else think it's getting warm in here?\u201d [Laughter] It's not just a kiss; it's \u201ckisses she wants.\u201d She wants them on the mouth. There's an intensity and a passion here, right from the beginning. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tObviously, this is human-level romance\u2014she's talking about physical attraction\/sexual desire, and she's honest and frank about that; ultimately, I think, in a holy way. We shouldn't try to interpret the kisses relate to something specific in our relationship with Christ\u2014it's more big picture. Human-level romance is teaching us about our passion for Christ\/His passion for us\u2014the intimacy of that relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI don't think of Song of Solomon as allegorical, where you've got to line up each thing in each verse to something that you read in the gospels. It's more symbolic\u2014big picture symbolism\u2014than specific allegory. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, this theme of being enthralled with romantic love\u2014you've experienced that in your marriage; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Have you experienced being enthralled with passionate love for Christ?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Yes; so sometimes; I would say the same thing about human marriage, too. I mean, there's a lot of the ordinary and the everyday, the comfortable, the deep affection that's just comfortable. C.S. Lewis writes about this; he married late in life. I won't be able to quote it exactly; but he just talked about this affectionate love, where you're actually just with another person. You don't actually even need to be talking about anything or doing anything together\u2014you're just enjoying being in the presence of someone, in a sort of comfortable way. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think we experience the whole range of things in our love relationship with Christ: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the things I experience\u2014I think a lot of believers do\u2014you're hearing the testimony of somebody, who came to faith in Christ\/how God intervened in their lives\u2014you want to be saved all over again. You're just drawn to Christ, again, in that moment. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr those times in which\u2014it's not every time; it may only be occasionally for many of us\u2014but you are just really caught up in worship\u2014I mean, this music\/these words\u2014they are deeply moving. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr you're bringing a life situation to a worship experience; and you know: \u201cThis is what the pastor is saying to me right now. That is exactly what I need to hear\u201d; and it's deeply moving. It moves your emotions in a way that you couldn't even control\/you couldn't try to conjure up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have these experiences in the Christian life that are the awakenings of passion. I don't know if I'd call it romance, exactly; I certainly would call it passion.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It's interesting that you mention this in the book about how, when you look at your lover\u2014and really look at her\/look at him\u2014you fall in love; you see. You talk about it in the book\u2014it's mentioned, in Song of Solomon, as they describe one another, even physically. That happens in our relationship with God, as well, when we take time to block out\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI tell you what\u2014this is crazy. This morning, I'm laying in bed, getting ready, looking at your book, getting ready for this interview. I look over and there's Ann in the bathroom, brushing her teeth\u2014she doesn't even know this\u2014and I just watch her brush her teeth. I'm just watching her with her little thing in there\u2014you know, we've been married almost 39 years, and watching her, looking at her face in the mirror\u2014she doesn't even know this\u2014I'm falling in love again. It's one of those moments, where I'm like, \u201cShe's the most beautiful woman I've ever seen in my life,\u201d\u2014her character, her beauty\u2014beyond physically. Again, I should have said this to her\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>This isn't really good program right now. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil:<\/strong> You know, it's been fun to watch Ann's face here. At first, she's like, \u201cWhere is this going?\u201d [Laughter] She's got a half smile and, then, she's a little embarrassed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Now, if I was Solomon, I would have said these words, right then, to her: \u201cLet me describe what I'm seeing right now\u201d; but I'm saying it to you and others. It was that moment of being captured, again, in romantic love.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Delighting. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Delighting; and it's the <em>same<\/em> thing\u2014you described this in the book\u2014when you look at God again, afresh\/anew. Again, you're right\u2014it isn't every day; but it's that moment that you're like: \u201cI am so in love. This God is so <em>amazing<\/em>.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Let me ask the question for the listener, who is thinking: \u201cOkay; I live more often in the ordinariness of my relationship with God\u2014the mundane. I have those moments, but I'd like to have more of those moments. Can I have more of those moments?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil:<\/strong> So, first of all\u2014I\u2019ll just say that I don't think we should be hard on ourselves if we have those moments rarely. I think there are a lot of ways that we communicate our love \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tfor God. It may be that passionate overflow of just praise and poetry even; but our love for God may look like daily, faithful obedience in a really tough situation. It doesn't seem to have a lot of romance, but we're faithful and we're consistent. Let's just recognize there are a lot of ways\u2014you know, it's part of the beauty of a love relationship\u2014there's so many different ways that you can express love for someone else.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI love what Dave said, actually, because he was talking about the focus\u2014really looking and noticing. So, how are the ways that we look and notice who God is that may awaken a great love and a passion? Well, supremely, in God's Word. It's also if we are attentive in the sacraments of the church, which are witnesses, and symbols, and signs of God's grace. It's being attentive to God's work in our lives\u2014like really noticing what God is doing\/how He is answering our prayers. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI'll just give an example from married life. Sometimes\u2014one thing I really appreciate that Lisa does for me\u2014I'll mention something once\u2014like, \u201cHey, it would really help me if we could get this at the store,\u201d or \u201c\u2026\u201d And then, you notice that it's been done. Actually, the request\/the response\u2014it leads to gratitude; it grows a relationship. I think prayer and answered prayer is another place where this passion grows.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I hope, as listeners hear this, the next time they open to the middle of the Bible and find, \u201cLet Him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth,\u201d they will think: \u201cThis is talking on two levels, and I need to read it on two levels. And I need to meditate on it on two levels\u2014my relationship with my spouse but also my relationship with God\u2014and \u2018What does that teach me about that?\u2019\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat's, frankly, why I think this book is going to be so helpful for so many people, who have gotten to that book and gone, \u201cWhat do I do with this?\u201d\u2014especially like you said, Ann, with the guy who had 700 wives and 300 concubines\u2014 \u201cHow do I understand it?\u201d I think this has been clarifying, and we've got copies of Dr. Ryken's book in our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>Resource Center. It's called <em>The Love of Loves in the Song of Songs<\/em>. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to order a copy, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get your copy of the book. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com; and our number is 1-800-FL-TODAY. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd then, don't forget, this week and next week, you have an opportunity to sign up for an upcoming FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup><em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway and to save \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t50 percent off the regular registration fee. If you register this week, you'll save \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t50 percent off the registration; and you and your spouse can join us for a <em>great<\/em> weekend getaway. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI talk to couples, all the time, who say, \u201cYes, we've talked about doing that; we've never been to one of your getaways.\u201d This is a great opportunity for you to invest in your marriage and invest in your legacy. That's what's so powerful here\u2014you're investing, not just in your marriage, but in your children's lives\/in the legacy of your family by building a stronger, healthier marriage and looking at what God's Word has to say about how we're to love one another.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGo to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information on when we are hosting a getaway in a city near where you live or a city you'd like to visit. Block out that weekend on your schedule this fall, and then sign up now so you save 50 percent off the regular registration fee, and join us for a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to register, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY\u2014that's 1-800-358-6329\u20141-800-\u201dF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d And then come join us at a <em>Weekend to Remember <\/em>this fall. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we're going to talk more about what we can learn both about our marriage relationship and about God's love for us when we look at the Song of Songs. Dr. Phil Ryken will be with us again. I hope you can be with us, as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:27:40"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["25.33M"],"filesize_raw":["26557282"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-305332.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-305332.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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Ryken discusses the greatest love song that has ever been written: the Song of Songs. Ryken shows us how Solomon's passion for his bride mirrors Christ's passion for us, on \"FamilyLife Today.\"","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-09-09.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Dr. Phil Ryken, who's the president of Wheaton College, says, when we read the Song of Solomon, we should see parallels between human love and our relationship with God. He says that you'd never know that's the case from where the book starts. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil:<\/strong> I read the first verse and I'm like, \u201cWhew! Does anybody else think it's getting warm in here?\u201d [Laughter] It's not just a kiss; it's \u201ckisses she wants.\u201d She wants them on the mouth. I mean, there's an intensity and a passion here, right from the beginning. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tObviously, this is human-level romance he's talking about\u2014physical attraction\/sexual desire. We shouldn't try to interpret the kisses relate to something specific in our relationship with Christ\u2014it's more big picture. Human-level romance is teaching about our passion for Christ\/His passion for us\u2014the intimacy of that relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, September 9<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. So, what can we learn from the Bible?\u2014from the Song of Solomon about marital love?\u2014and about God's love for us? We're going to explore that today with Dr. Phil Ryken. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I'm excited about our guest, and I'm excited about the topic we're going to be talking about today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Why is that, Bob?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, the topic\u2014because it's a biblical topic\u2014and because it's an exciting topic; right? Don't you agree?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I don't know. What topic are we talking about today, Bob? [Laughter] I want to hear you say it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Me, too; he's trying to throw us under the bus.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We are talking about the greatest love song ever written, and that's what the Bible claims. It's the Song of Songs\u2014right?\u2014written by King Solomon. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I thought he was going to say, \u201c<em>Can't Buy Me Love<\/em>\u2014[Laughter]\u2014greatest love song every written.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>No; I wouldn't say so.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> No; this is the greatest love song every written. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And before we dive into talking about that, I want to make sure our regular <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners know that, this week and next week, they have the opportunity to sign up for the greatest <em>weekend<\/em> they can have this fall. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yep.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Sign up to attend an upcoming <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup>marriage getaway. We're going to be hosting getaways in more than three dozen cities across the country this fall. If you sign up this week or next week to attend a getaway, you and your spouse will save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. And really, there's nothing better you could do for your marriage, than for the two of you to get away for a weekend this fall and just spend time together, learning about God's design for marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere's information about the <em>Weekend to Remember <\/em>on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com. You can call if you have any questions or if you want to find out when it's coming to a city near where you live. The number is 1-800-FL-TODAY to take advantage of the special half-price offer for the <em>Weekend to Remember <\/em>marriage getaway. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com and register today, or call to register at 1-800-FL-TODAY; and then we'll see you at an upcoming getaway. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, back to the greatest love song every written. We have, to talk about that with us today, the president of Wheaton College, Dr. Phil Ryken, who is joining us. Dr. Ryken, welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em> \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Yes; it's great to see you, Bob, and really great to be here with Dave and Ann. I appreciate your work. And it's great to talk about the greatest of all songs.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That's right. I've followed you since your days at Tenth Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia. You were the pastor there; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil:<\/strong> Yes; 15 years in downtown Philadelphia. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And then you took a job as your dad's boss. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Yes; actually, I like to think of it as my dad's boss\u2019s, boss\u2019s boss. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Why is that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>He's been teaching at Wheaton for 51 years. His boss would be the Department Chair, and the Department Chair's boss would be the Dean of Humanities, and the Dean of Humanities boss would be the Provost, and the Provost's boss would be me. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, he's a little down the food chain there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Yes; well, in a way; but you know, your dad is still your dad.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> When my daughter\u2014who, by the way, has her masters from Wheaton\u2014we were looking at undergraduate schools; Wheaton was one that we considered. When we got to campus for a campus visit, she and I were both excited because she got to sit in on one of your dad's classes,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Oh, great! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014and your dad's legendary!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>What did he teach?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>He teaches English Literature. He's semi-retired; he retired at age 70\u2014that was 7 years ago. He's been teaching one class a semester since then\u2014still doing a lot of writing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>In 1984, he wrote a book called <em>How to Read the Bible as Literature<\/em> that is a classic. It helps you understand how to understand the Bible\u2014the specific genre of the literary work of the Bible; it's fascinating. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Interesting; that makes me want to get it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>When you were being sought out as the possible president at Wheaton, you obviously called your dad and said, \u201cWhat do you think?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Yes; my dad loved the pastoral ministry I was doing in Philadelphia. He knew those burdens are heavy\u2014you both [Bob and Dave] know that\u2014all the challenges of ministry. But these burdens are heavier, in many ways; and he knew that would be the case. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, what do you want for your children? You want them to follow the Lord\u2014that's the main thing\u2014but, if you could, you'd preserve them from hardship and difficulty\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That's true. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil:<\/strong> \u2014and just be in that sweet, happy good place in life; so he had mixed feelings about it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I know this is a little off subject; but I just have to say\u2014being a university president\/a college president at an evangelical institution today\u2014you are facing some significant challenges. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Yes; I mean, that's probably a radio show for another day; but college presidencies have become <em>extremely<\/em> difficult jobs\u2014it's why there's such high turnover. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think you're right\u2014any role, where you're on the front lines of ministry\u2014and that's true for every person, right here, in this conversation\u2014because we're trying to present biblical truth. You're on the front lines of spiritual warfare, so that's going to be contested; and you're going to face all the other difficulties that everybody faces in life. [Laughter] But there are going to be some additional burdens, challenges, heartaches with that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, I hope our listeners will pray for you and pray for Wheaton\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014because we need\u2014I say we; the church\/the body of Christ\u2014needs Christian institutions, like Wheaton: that are faithful to the Word of God, that are discipling and training and equipping the minds and the hearts of young people. We're grateful that you do that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil:<\/strong> Yes; thank you. And I praise God\u2014you know, we're part of a Christian higher education movement. There are, just within the council of Christian colleges and universities, 50,000 young men and women that graduate from our schools every year\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil:<\/strong> \u2014and have an opportunity to go out and change the world for Jesus Christ.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Exciting.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil:<\/strong> And Bob, one of the things that they need to be thinking about is their love relationship with Jesus Christ and, in many cases, how to really flourish in marriage relationships.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCan I bring us back to our topic?! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Oh! Look, he\u2019s an expert in transition! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Hey, Bob, I think you've been replaced. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil:<\/strong> I'm just trying to be a good guest here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, that's the perfect segue into the book that you've recently written called <em>The Love of Loves in the Song of Songs<\/em>, which is an extended meditation on the greatest song ever written\u2014the Song of Solomon. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLast time you were here, we talked about 1 Corinthians 13; so this issue of understanding love\u2014God's love\/human love\u2014this is something that's been on your heart for a long time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Yes; and I'll say something I probably said when we visited before, Bob. The topics I write on\u2014they're not the topics I'm good at. [Laughter] They're the topics I need to work on, so we're right back where we were\u2014working on growing our love for God and our love for others\u2014specifically, in the context of marriage; although really, the Song of Songs is not limited to that. It has wider application for all of us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And let's start with that, because there's been theological controversy about how to interpret this book for centuries. Wasn't it Spurgeon who thought this was completely allegory and had nothing to do with human romantic love?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Yes, and that's not an uncommon view. Some of the early church fathers had that \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tview. When Bernard of Clairvaux did\u2014what was it?\u201472 sermons on the Song of Solomon for the chaste monks in France, it wasn't a sort of human level\u2014\u201cHere's how you work out your marriage,\u201d\u2014kind of book at all. It was all about the soul's romance; ultimately, with Jesus Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think it's really both\/and in this regard\u2014obviously, this is a human-level romance\u2014this woman that's fallen in love with this man\u2014to some degree\u2014the story of their love relationship and the people in their community around them, and how they're involved. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut anytime we're talking about love, and romance, and marriage\u2014there's a bigger biblical story here\u2014which, I like to say the Bible starts with a blind date [Laughter] and it ends with a wedding reception. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil:<\/strong> It takes a while to kind of unpack all of that; but, you know, it begins with God presenting a woman to a man. What is the first thing he does? He starts speaking poetry\u2014love poetry: \u201cThis now is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe can talk about the way the Bible unfolds this great mystery; but one of the main ways that God talks about His relationship with us\u2014the main metaphor, image, picture of it\u2014is this love relationship\/a marriage relationship; ultimately culminating, at the very end of the Bible, in the wedding supper of the Lamb and the celebration that's around that. That's a big frame around our whole Christian experience. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEven when we're in a book like the Song of Songs\u2014actually, there's <em>no<\/em> book like the Song of Songs\u2014[Laughter]\u2014but even when we're in the Song of Songs,and we're talking about a lot of things at a human level\u2014very familiar from our experiences\u2014there's a bigger picture, and this is a pointer to our love relationship with Jesus Christ. Like a lot of things in the Bible, there's a lot going on: it's multi-dimension; it's operating on a couple of different levels. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I really liked how you did that in your book, because I've read\u2014I don't know if I've read as many as Bob has\u2014on this topic, the Song of Songs. [Laughter] But I've read several books on the Song of Solomon. I didn't get out of them what you did, in terms of\u2014you kept it horizontal: \u201cHere's the relationship, on the earthly plane, about a love between a husband and wife.\u201d But then, you always kept going vertical and saying: \u201cBut this is a bigger thing.\u201d Talk about that\u2014you just did a little bit. You wouldn't let that go\u2014every chapter, you bring it back to remind us: \u201cThis is bigger than just a man and a woman.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>For a couple of reasons. One thing is that, anytime that I'm teaching the Scriptures, I always want to have, not in the background, but actually in the forefront of my thinking: the cross and the empty tomb; the gospel; the saving work of Jesus Christ\u2014His death for our sins; His resurrection for our eternal life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI believe the whole Bible is Christ-centered. We've got to read the Bible\u2014I mean, this is getting back to how to read the Bible as literature\u2014we've got to read each part of the Bible, as the part of the Bible that it is\/according to the literature that it is\u2014we also have to see it in the big story of God's redemption. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI take very seriously what Paul does in Ephesians, Chapter 5; because, here, you have Paul talking explicitly about marriage; which by the way, the Bible rarely does. What it does say, therefore, is hugely important; and it gives you the broad principles which you then have a lot of freedom to work out in the shape of the way that God has made you and your relationship. Here's one of the places\u2014Ephesians Chapter 5\u2014there's a lot about marriage right there. At the end of that, Paul says, almost dismissively: \u201cOh, by the way, what I'm really talking about\u201d\u2014yes, we've been talking on the horizontal level\u2014\u201cI\u2019m really talking about Christ and the church.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think that has broader application than just to Ephesians Chapter 5. Paul is elevating things and saying that we always have to keep in mind this love relationship between God and His people. You come to the gospels\u2014the Messiah comes; and basically, the groom is walking into the room\u2014He's the bridegroom. He's the bridegroom in the context of the whole story that the Bible has been developing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI like to think of the Song of Songs as the soundtrack for a romance that's been building, from the beginning of Genesis, and is going to find it's culmination in eternity.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I think it's easy to do that with other books of the Bible; however, I've talked to so many women that\u2014with this book, the Song of Songs\u2014this is a difficult one, because Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. They're thinking, \u201cI don't even like to hear teaching from this book\u2014it doesn't even make sense\u2014and that's God's relationship with us?\u201d How do you answer those questions?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>A couple of things on that. First of all, I think it is a difficult book. But I also think, rather than staying away from the difficult things, we should be leaning into them. That's why we need resources to help us and to give us a guide. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat I will say about Solomon is a couple of things. First of all, Solomon had a <em>thousand<\/em> times too many relationships. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>That's a good way to put it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>And that's evident from the story as it's told in Kings. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOn the other hand, we know that Solomon was renowned for his wisdom. He had a beautiful way with words; he was a poet as well as a king. I think we can definitely take the Song of Solomon as Solomonic, possibly something he wrote. The way that it's expressed in the Hebrew is a little looser than that, so it could be kind of \u201cof Solomon\u201d\u2014like: \u201cof Solomon's court.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think another way of possibly looking at this\u2014here's an analogy\u2014just think about how fascinated people are with royal weddings from England. You know, people get up early; they'll have parties; they may even do something in their wedding, which they saw done in the royal wedding.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>It's true. You guys may not know that, but it's very true. Women will get up at \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t3 a.m. to watch these weddings. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>There's something about a wedding, which has a royal quality to it anyway. I mean, this is the prince and the princess\u2014they're coming together. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt may be that this love relationship, which is kind of a rural relationship between this country girl\u2014you know, maybe, it is literally Solomon; but maybe, it's sort of set in the context of the Solomonic court to elevate\/to see the dignity and beauty of this relationship. That's another way of looking at the Song of Solomon.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI definitely would not let Solomon himself be a stumbling block; because I think that, if you start doing that\u2014who in the Bible isn't a stumbling block?\u2014only Jesus isn't. That's one of the ways we get pointed back to Him, again and again, in the Scriptures. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We assume that this book is talking about Solomon himself because the king keeps being referenced. If it's a rural girl and somebody else, they wouldn't call him the king; would they?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>I think that's one of the strong reasons for thinking that this does have Solomonic authorship. I'm just trying to tease out some of the possibilities here. Particularly\u2014I don't know if it's Chapter 4, possibly\u2014there's this royal procession. The king is coming, and he's obviously there for the wedding; and that's the context. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; when we get to verses in the Song of Solomonlike, \u201cLet him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth\u201d, and it starts to get kind of steamy, should we interpret that as somehow our relationship with God? Should we write worship songs that talk about sloppy wet kisses? Is that what we're supposed to do?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Please, no. [Laughter] It's interesting that you say, \u201cWhen we get to verses\u2026\u201d Bob; because that's actually the first verse. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Good point.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>We're having a good conversation here; we haven't even gotten past verse 1. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI read verse 1\u2014one thing to say about the book\u2014these are chapel talks that I gave at Wheaton, and then there's a revision process. I like to get people's input, and improve them, and things like that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI read the first verse and I'm like, \u201cWhew. Does anybody else think it's getting warm in here?\u201d [Laughter] It's not just a kiss; it's \u201ckisses she wants.\u201d She wants them on the mouth. There's an intensity and a passion here, right from the beginning. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tObviously, this is human-level romance\u2014she's talking about physical attraction\/sexual desire, and she's honest and frank about that; ultimately, I think, in a holy way. We shouldn't try to interpret the kisses relate to something specific in our relationship with Christ\u2014it's more big picture. Human-level romance is teaching us about our passion for Christ\/His passion for us\u2014the intimacy of that relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI don't think of Song of Solomon as allegorical, where you've got to line up each thing in each verse to something that you read in the gospels. It's more symbolic\u2014big picture symbolism\u2014than specific allegory. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, this theme of being enthralled with romantic love\u2014you've experienced that in your marriage; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Have you experienced being enthralled with passionate love for Christ?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil: <\/strong>Yes; so sometimes; I would say the same thing about human marriage, too. I mean, there's a lot of the ordinary and the everyday, the comfortable, the deep affection that's just comfortable. C.S. Lewis writes about this; he married late in life. I won't be able to quote it exactly; but he just talked about this affectionate love, where you're actually just with another person. You don't actually even need to be talking about anything or doing anything together\u2014you're just enjoying being in the presence of someone, in a sort of comfortable way. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think we experience the whole range of things in our love relationship with Christ: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the things I experience\u2014I think a lot of believers do\u2014you're hearing the testimony of somebody, who came to faith in Christ\/how God intervened in their lives\u2014you want to be saved all over again. You're just drawn to Christ, again, in that moment. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr those times in which\u2014it's not every time; it may only be occasionally for many of us\u2014but you are just really caught up in worship\u2014I mean, this music\/these words\u2014they are deeply moving. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr you're bringing a life situation to a worship experience; and you know: \u201cThis is what the pastor is saying to me right now. That is exactly what I need to hear\u201d; and it's deeply moving. It moves your emotions in a way that you couldn't even control\/you couldn't try to conjure up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have these experiences in the Christian life that are the awakenings of passion. I don't know if I'd call it romance, exactly; I certainly would call it passion.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It's interesting that you mention this in the book about how, when you look at your lover\u2014and really look at her\/look at him\u2014you fall in love; you see. You talk about it in the book\u2014it's mentioned, in Song of Solomon, as they describe one another, even physically. That happens in our relationship with God, as well, when we take time to block out\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI tell you what\u2014this is crazy. This morning, I'm laying in bed, getting ready, looking at your book, getting ready for this interview. I look over and there's Ann in the bathroom, brushing her teeth\u2014she doesn't even know this\u2014and I just watch her brush her teeth. I'm just watching her with her little thing in there\u2014you know, we've been married almost 39 years, and watching her, looking at her face in the mirror\u2014she doesn't even know this\u2014I'm falling in love again. It's one of those moments, where I'm like, \u201cShe's the most beautiful woman I've ever seen in my life,\u201d\u2014her character, her beauty\u2014beyond physically. Again, I should have said this to her\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>This isn't really good program right now. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil:<\/strong> You know, it's been fun to watch Ann's face here. At first, she's like, \u201cWhere is this going?\u201d [Laughter] She's got a half smile and, then, she's a little embarrassed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Now, if I was Solomon, I would have said these words, right then, to her: \u201cLet me describe what I'm seeing right now\u201d; but I'm saying it to you and others. It was that moment of being captured, again, in romantic love.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Delighting. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Delighting; and it's the <em>same<\/em> thing\u2014you described this in the book\u2014when you look at God again, afresh\/anew. Again, you're right\u2014it isn't every day; but it's that moment that you're like: \u201cI am so in love. This God is so <em>amazing<\/em>.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Let me ask the question for the listener, who is thinking: \u201cOkay; I live more often in the ordinariness of my relationship with God\u2014the mundane. I have those moments, but I'd like to have more of those moments. Can I have more of those moments?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Phil:<\/strong> So, first of all\u2014I\u2019ll just say that I don't think we should be hard on ourselves if we have those moments rarely. I think there are a lot of ways that we communicate our love \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tfor God. It may be that passionate overflow of just praise and poetry even; but our love for God may look like daily, faithful obedience in a really tough situation. It doesn't seem to have a lot of romance, but we're faithful and we're consistent. Let's just recognize there are a lot of ways\u2014you know, it's part of the beauty of a love relationship\u2014there's so many different ways that you can express love for someone else.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI love what Dave said, actually, because he was talking about the focus\u2014really looking and noticing. So, how are the ways that we look and notice who God is that may awaken a great love and a passion? Well, supremely, in God's Word. It's also if we are attentive in the sacraments of the church, which are witnesses, and symbols, and signs of God's grace. It's being attentive to God's work in our lives\u2014like really noticing what God is doing\/how He is answering our prayers. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI'll just give an example from married life. Sometimes\u2014one thing I really appreciate that Lisa does for me\u2014I'll mention something once\u2014like, \u201cHey, it would really help me if we could get this at the store,\u201d or \u201c\u2026\u201d And then, you notice that it's been done. Actually, the request\/the response\u2014it leads to gratitude; it grows a relationship. I think prayer and answered prayer is another place where this passion grows.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I hope, as listeners hear this, the next time they open to the middle of the Bible and find, \u201cLet Him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth,\u201d they will think: \u201cThis is talking on two levels, and I need to read it on two levels. And I need to meditate on it on two levels\u2014my relationship with my spouse but also my relationship with God\u2014and \u2018What does that teach me about that?\u2019\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat's, frankly, why I think this book is going to be so helpful for so many people, who have gotten to that book and gone, \u201cWhat do I do with this?\u201d\u2014especially like you said, Ann, with the guy who had 700 wives and 300 concubines\u2014 \u201cHow do I understand it?\u201d I think this has been clarifying, and we've got copies of Dr. Ryken's book in our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>Resource Center. It's called <em>The Love of Loves in the Song of Songs<\/em>. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to order a copy, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get your copy of the book. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com; and our number is 1-800-FL-TODAY. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd then, don't forget, this week and next week, you have an opportunity to sign up for an upcoming FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup><em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway and to save \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t50 percent off the regular registration fee. If you register this week, you'll save \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t50 percent off the registration; and you and your spouse can join us for a <em>great<\/em> weekend getaway. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI talk to couples, all the time, who say, \u201cYes, we've talked about doing that; we've never been to one of your getaways.\u201d This is a great opportunity for you to invest in your marriage and invest in your legacy. That's what's so powerful here\u2014you're investing, not just in your marriage, but in your children's lives\/in the legacy of your family by building a stronger, healthier marriage and looking at what God's Word has to say about how we're to love one another.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGo to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information on when we are hosting a getaway in a city near where you live or a city you'd like to visit. Block out that weekend on your schedule this fall, and then sign up now so you save 50 percent off the regular registration fee, and join us for a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to register, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY\u2014that's 1-800-358-6329\u20141-800-\u201dF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d And then come join us at a <em>Weekend to Remember <\/em>this fall. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we're going to talk more about what we can learn both about our marriage relationship and about God's love for us when we look at the Song of Songs. Dr. Phil Ryken will be with us again. I hope you can be with us, as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/305332","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=305332"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=305332"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=305332"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=305332"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=305332"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=305332"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=305332"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}