{"id":305306,"date":"2019-08-28T06:00:04","date_gmt":"2019-08-28T10:00:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/counseling-for-the-difficult-times\/"},"modified":"2019-08-28T06:00:04","modified_gmt":"2019-08-28T10:00:04","slug":"counseling-for-the-difficult-times","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/counseling-for-the-difficult-times\/","title":{"rendered":"Counseling for the Difficult Times"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Christian counselor Jonathan Holmes talks about the challenges of counseling a spouse experiencing emotional or physical abuse. He also shares how he would counsel a couple experiencing spiritual differences.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-08-28.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:26:13","filesize":"24M","filesize_raw":"25167956","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[10443,2902],"tags":[2949,6689,6691,6690,6692],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[9555],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-305306","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-christian-marriage-counseling","category-resolving-conflict","tag-abuse","tag-counsel-for-couples","tag-intimacy-problems","tag-marriage-in-crisis","tag-spiritual-differences","cwp_profile-jonathan-holmes","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/305306\/counseling-for-the-difficult-times","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/305306\/counseling-for-the-difficult-times","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"6KLINf5hlx\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/counseling-for-the-difficult-times\/\">Counseling for the Difficult Times<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/counseling-for-the-difficult-times\/embed\/#?secret=6KLINf5hlx\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Counseling for the Difficult Times&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"6KLINf5hlx\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Christian counselor Jonathan Holmes talks about the challenges of counseling a spouse experiencing emotional or physical abuse. He also shares how he would counsel a couple experiencing spiritual differences.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-08-28.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Is it possible you are in an abusive relationship and have never called it that? Jonathan Holmes says it is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I was speaking with a woman\u2014she\u2019s been married for 35 years\u2014she began describing to me just what daily life looks like for her in the home. A<a id=\"_Hlk16499403\">gain, she\u2019s not even mentioning it in the context of abuse; but it\u2019s clearly abusive. I just raised up the question, \u201cHas anybody ever mentioned to you that you might be in an abusive relationship?\u201d She kind of just paused\u2014and I could tell I caught her off guard\u2014she goes \u201cWell, no.\u201d<\/a>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Wednesday, August 28<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. How do you identify an abusive relationship? What do you do if you\u2019re in one? We\u2019re going to talk about that today. Stay with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. We are tackling some pretty tough stuff.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> These are like the big five.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I remember talking to a pastor, one time, who said to me, \u201cIf we took our pastoral staff and asked, \u2018What are you spending your time on?\u2019, they would say, \u2018More than \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t50 percent of our time is spent dealing with people, who are in marital distress\u2014going through a divorce or recovering from a divorce.\u2019\u201d Then I said, \u201cHow many classes in seminary did you have on that?\u201d They said, \u201cMaybe, half of one,\u201d\u2014right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen you get to the reality of what\u2019s going on in our churches, and what are the issues, there are very few people scheduling an appointment with the pastor to say: \u201cI\u2019m struggling with whether this was active voice in the original language or whether it\u2019s past tense. [Laughter] I\u2019m really trying to understand the eschatological implications of the Olivet discourse.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know, Bob, in 40 years of ministry, I\u2019ve never had a <em>single<\/em> conversation about that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> [Laughter] Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And yet, \u201cMy spouse cheated on me,\u201d \u201cMy spouse looks at porn,\u201d \u201cMy spouse isn\u2019t a believer,\u201d \u201cMy spouse is abusing me in frozen intimacy,\u201d\u2014I have those conversations, continually, in the church.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan: <\/strong>Yes; right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The person, who is saying, \u201cYes,\u201d and \u201cRight,\u201d is Jonathan Holmes, who joins us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Jonathan, welcome.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Thank you. Thank you for having me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Jonathan is the pastor of counseling at Parkside Church. He has written a book called <em>Counsel for Couples: A Biblical and Practical Guide for Marriage Counseling<\/em>. You listed off the big issues\/the most common issues. We\u2019ve talked, this week, about infidelity and a little bit about pornography; but what about the issue of abuse?\u2014both physical abuse and also emotional abuse. Emotional abuse, I know, gets a little squishy because, \u201cMy husband got mad at me yesterday, so I was emotionally abused,\u201d\u2014I\u2019m not trying to minimize that. How do\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019d like to define that actually\u2014of what that is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What is emotional abuse?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Well, when we talk about any kind of abuse\u2014whether it be emotional, spiritual, physical, sexual\u2014any kind of abuse\u2014you can\u2019t talk about abuse without talking about power and control. Those patterns of control and power: \u201cIs it in withholding finances?\u201d \u201cIs it within endangering a woman\u2019s life?\u201d or \u201cIs it withholding resources?\u201d\u2014or \u201ckeeping them from talking to family members?\u201d\u2014or \u201cberating them, consistently, as a means to belittling the image of God in another person?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere is a little bit of a difference between a husband, who will get mad at his wife, or a wife, who will push back on her husband occasionally, than some of these habitual patterns, where they\u2019re exercising power and control over another individual.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Physical abuse is one of those hidden sins and, yet, more prevalent, maybe, than we realize?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Absolutely. One in every four women, at some point in their life, will be a victim of domestic violence. When we think about domestic abuse\u2014like you were saying, Bob, it sometimes can stay hidden\u2014but violence can occur in a number of other ways. As we\u2019ve already mentioned, emotional abuse\/financial abuse, where you\u2019re exercising power and control over another individual, where you are belittling or trying to take away the image of God in another person, without ever even touching them. It can be through public intimidation; it could be through the withholding of finances\u2014a variety of different things.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> My experience has been, if it\u2019s a wife who is being abused, she feels like there is something <em>wrong<\/em> with her even bringing up that she\u2019s being abused. She feels shame or something related to confessing this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; exactly. I was speaking with a woman, earlier this weekend\u2014she\u2019s been married for 35 years\u2014she began describing to me just what daily life looks like for her in the home. Again, she\u2019s not even mentioning it in the context of abuse; but it\u2019s clearly abusive. I just raised up the question, \u201cHas anybody ever mentioned to you that you might be in an abusive relationship?\u201d She kind of just paused\u2014and I could tell I caught her off guard\u2014she goes, \u201cWell no; I don\u2019t think that.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat had happened was\u2014her husband had so consistently used power and control over her to really put her into a spot where she really had no personal agency\/where she really had lost a lot of personhood as a wife and an individual. She didn\u2019t even know that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Does this ever happen the other way around\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014where a husband is being abused by his wife?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; and I would say that\u2019s an even <em>more<\/em> hidden epidemic. I think, a lot of times, when we think about abuse\u2014again, we, a lot of times, think about a wife, who\u2019s being abused; but in my own counseling practice, I\u2019ve seen a <em>number<\/em> of cases, where a husband is being abused.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, what are the next steps? How did you advise that woman?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> The first thing that we always do is\u2014we want to prioritize personal safety, and that is a biblical concept. Whenever we look at Scripture, and we see that people are in danger\/when their lives are being personally threatened, we don\u2019t say, \u201cStop and read this verse,\u201d or \u201cPray for strength to get through it,\u201d or \u201cGod will provide a way of escape.\u201d We see God telling Hagar, \u201cLeave\u201d\/\u201dGet out.\u201d We see Joseph, when he\u2019s in the midst of a sexually-abusive situation, getting out\/leaving the situation. We see David fleeing from Saul in a time when his life is being endangered. The movement of Scripture is to prioritize personal safety, and so we want to make sure that that happens. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow a caveat with that is, when after we\u2019re counseling an individual, who is in an abusive situation, we don\u2019t want to counsel them to just leave immediately; because that actually represents the greatest point of personal endangerment to them. For instance, if I told that wife, \u201cHey, you need to go home, pack your bags, and just high tail it out of there,\u201d\u2014that actually could have represented a <em>significant<\/em> point of danger for her. Let\u2019s say her husband comes home, while she\u2019s packing her bag, and says, \u201cHey, what are you doing?\u201d and she tells him. It could have gotten very violent and could have escalated. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen we talk about prioritizing personal safety, we want to do things like make a safety plan: \u201cWho would you call if things got out of hand or things were to escalate? What emergency authorities would you call?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> We\u2019re talking about physical abuse here?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; physical abuse. Prioritizing that personal safety\u2014seeing if they have somebody\u2019s house that they could go to. Is there a domestic women\u2019s shelter that\u2019s nearby that they could go to? One of the things, when it comes to counseling abuse cases, that I would encourage pastors, counselors, lay people in the church is: \u201cNever do this alone.\u201d The church, unfortunately, in a number of cases, has not dealt with abuse well; or we can minimize abuse; we can cover abuse. We can theologize, in a way, as it were.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I want to ask you about that. First, let me just say\u2014we\u2019ve got on our website, at FamilyLifeToday.com, links to podcasts on this subject\/articles on this subject. We have dealt with this before. People who are in this and need help\u2014we can help you think through a plan and get to safety\u2014the things you\u2019re talking about here. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut Jonathan, what about the person, who says, \u201cI went to my pastor\u201d or \u201cI went to an elder in our church and they said, \u2018Well, you know, the Bible says turn the other cheek\u2019\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014or \u201csubmit.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I would say that, \u201cThat\u2019s wrong counsel\/that\u2019s unbiblical counsel.\u201d I would say that, in charity and in love, not in a way that would demean the pastor or the person that had offered that advice. I would want to take them to Scripture; I would want to show them how God prioritizes the care for the person. He looks out for the weak; He is caring about the oppressed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen you look at the Old Testament prophets, specifically Isaiah and Jeremiah, one of the issues for the Israelites had been that they had overlooked that type of thing\u2014they had <em>overlooked<\/em> oppression. They had applied band-aids to people\u2019s wounds\u2014it said in Jeremiah\u2014and God takes them to the proverbial woodshed\u2014He says [paraphrase of Jeremiah 6:14]: \u201cWoe to you for doing that. You have tried to heal people\u2019s wounds lightly. You\u2019ve tried to put a band-aid on their wounds and shame on you for doing that.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And yet, the woman or the guy who\u2019s being abused is also trying to forgive. I\u2019ve had people in our church say, \u201cI can\u2019t leave because I\u2019m supposed to forgive.\u201d What do you say to that person?\u2014because there\u2019s that balance of safety; yet, they are still called to forgive. Talk about that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> And that\u2019s where I think, sometimes, we can do ourselves a disservice by trying to rush that forgiveness too quick when there hasn\u2019t been confession and repentance. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBefore God, in that vertical dimension of forgiveness, we can bring that before the Lord; and I think bring it before the Lord, really in community, because I find very few people, who are in abusive situations, are even able to pray those things. They need help; they need support; they need strength. They need people to come alongside and support them. But we wouldn\u2019t want to unnecessarily or too quickly rush and offer forgiveness to an abuser when they\u2019re not repentant or they haven\u2019t confessed that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I want to ask about an issue that comes up, regularly, when we\u2019re talking with couples at <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage getaways\u2014that\u2019s the issue of the lack of desire for intimacy in a marriage relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So Bob, we\u2019re just going to go to another light topic. [Laughter] Is that what we\u2019re doing?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; this is nothing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Abuse to intimacy; yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; what\u2019s the story to that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, and this is a situation that I remember 20 years ago\u2014I would often hear about it from husbands. More and more, I\u2019m hearing about it from wives, who say, \u201cMy husband does not have interest in intimacy\u201d; and some couples, who would say: \u201cIt\u2019s been two years\/three years since we\u2019ve been intimate in our marriage. We\u2019ve just kind of walled that off, and we\u2019re just going on with that absent from our marriage.\u201d First of all, what\u2019s going on there?!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I always say intimacy problems are spiritual problems; right? If a couple is having problems with physical intimacy, I can almost guarantee, there\u2019s spiritual intimacy issues; right? A wife and husband are not going to be able to have a fruitful, God-glorifying sex life: if they can\u2019t talk to each other, if they can\u2019t communicate, if they can\u2019t resolve conflict. So trying to understand that, oftentimes, sexual intimacy\u2014and the lack thereof\u2014is symptomatic of deeper issues that are going on.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We say it\u2019s not the thermostat\u2014that intimacy doesn\u2019t <em>adjust<\/em> the temperature of your marriage. It is a thermometer that helps <em>diagnose<\/em> what\u2019s going on.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; love that illustration.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well Bob, I would agree with you. Over the years\u2014and we\u2019ve been speaking for FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup><em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> for almost 30 years\u2014but there has been a real <em>shift<\/em>, where I hear so many women saying, \u201cMy husband isn\u2019t interested in sex.\u201d Why is that happening? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> And again, I don\u2019t want to blame everything on pornography; but I would say I think the role of pornography has played a <em>significant<\/em> role in that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnother issue would just be I think our culture\u2014the way it\u2019s oriented towards work and towards a lack of rest. We just don\u2019t make time for it; we just don\u2019t prioritize it. I mean, a couple going to bed at night\u2014half the time, not even together at the same time\u2014because of priorities, because of kids, of just demands on their time. We don\u2019t prioritize protecting that aspect of our relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019re absolutely right. I\u2019m actually finding that to be true too, Ann, of more and more women coming and telling me that as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So the wife, who says: \u201cI can take it or leave it. When it comes right down to it, at the end of the day, with the kids\/with everything that\u2019s going on, I would rather go to sleep than be intimate with my husband. I can live like that for months, and it doesn\u2019t bother me.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And husbands are saying that now, too; so what\u2019s your answer?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> One of the things I think is\u2014it requires a little bit of teaching. Again, this can be done in the context of a discipleship relationship\/a friendship relationship but to help them see sex as service\u2014that there\u2019s something about the sacrificial act of giving yourself to your spouse\u2014that that\u2019s actually the <em>radical<\/em> thing that Paul\u2019s talking about in 1 Corinthians, where he\u2019s saying, \u201cListen, you don\u2019t own your body.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSex in ancient and near eastern cultures was very much about the body and just about pleasure; it was <em>not<\/em> about spiritual intimacy or unity. For Paul to tell a wife that she has control over her husband\u2019s body or for him to tell a husband that he has control over his wife\u2019s body would have been an incredible <em>radical<\/em> thing in first century Jewish culture. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen we think about sexual intimacy, framing it under the rubric of service in love, I think is absolutely important. Now, we say that; and it sounds a little bit like Christianese because, as JC Ryle says, \u201cFamiliarity with sacred things has a dreadful tendency to cause men to despise them.\u201d We\u2019ve heard that so much\u2014we\u2019ve heard sex being talked about as a way to serve your spouse that, I think, we\u2019ve actually forgotten that. We need to reclaim that vision.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You also know that\u2014if a wife\u2019s attitude or a husband\u2019s attitude is: \u201cOkay; I will provide a service for you because I know I\u2019m supposed to, and I want to be a good wife,\u201d or \u201c\u2026a good husband,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s not a recipe for a fulfilling sex life in a marriage relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Right; absolutely not. I\u2019m not meaning\u2014I don\u2019t want to communicate the wrong thing when I\u2019m talking about service. It\u2019s not in that sort of way but it\u2019s more of an attitude. It\u2019s a disposition and it\u2019s an attitude that <em>wants<\/em> to see your spouse\u2019s highest welfare in Christ\u2014to see them become all that they can be in Christ. I think that\u2019s an important attitude and disposition to have.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The person, who would say: \u201cI just don\u2019t have desire. I wish I did.\u201d Is there a way to stir or reawaken desire in a person where it\u2019s just dead for whatever reason?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> In one of those things that it actually brings up is that there might be physical things going on as well. So part of a good counseling relationship is, not just spiritualizing everything, but also saying, \u201cHey, maybe you should reach out to your primary care physician or talk to your OB\/GYN to see if there are also physiological issues that might be going on that are affecting your sex life.\u201d We are not just souls walking around; we are actually physical beings. To attend to that part of who we are, as it relates to that type of struggle\u2014I think is important advice that we can give to both husbands <em>and<\/em> wives.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> We make sure that it\u2019s not physical. Let\u2019s say the spouse is thinking\/our listener is thinking: \u201cAlright, I\u2019m going to pursue my husband\u201d or \u201c\u2026my wife tonight\u201d; but I\u2019m rejected. Do I just continue to be rejected?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I think rejection is one of the most <em>difficult<\/em> things for any spouse to deal with. What I\u2019ll try and counsel spouses, in that situation as it relates to sexual intimacy, is I\u2019ll say: \u201cWhat other ways do you feel like you are pursuing that?\u2014where you\u2019re pursuing love and service in meaningful connection outside of the bedroom. Are there other ways where you\u2019re trying to show that, demonstrate that, and communicate that?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd after a time, if there\u2019s just continual rejection, I do think that\u2019s where additional counseling can be helpful\u2014where it\u2019s probably risen above just where something maybe a friend or a mentor can help provide a context to work through some of those issues to say: \u201cHey, maybe you guys should try marriage counseling. Maybe there\u2019s some other issues that are going on:\u201d\u2014things we\u2019ve already talked about\u2014\u201ccommunication, or forgiveness, or conflict resolution that need to be attended to that are actually touching on this other issue.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> As you look at the culture we\u2019re living in now, you said one of the reasons maybe desire is lower is: pornography, and busyness, and working our tails off\u2014and we\u2019ve been there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat about intimacy?\u2014are we living in a culture, where because of social media and because we\u2019re connected and, in some ways, we\u2019re intimate, online\u2014and I don\u2019t mean looking at porn\u2014but we\u2019re sharing our lives; feels like we\u2019re intimate with a lot of people; yet, we\u2019re not at all. Then we get home and then there\u2019s this wall or fear. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMaybe I\u2019m talking about myself. [Laughter] But you know, I\u2019m just wondering, \u201cDo you see that as well?\u201d\u2014because, now, to be sexually intimate is <em>really<\/em> a scary place to go.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Absolutely. You see that picture\u2014right?\u2014in Genesis 2, where it says Adam and Eve stood before each other what?\u2014naked and unashamed. There\u2019s a beauty and a simplicity to that phrasing in Genesis 2 that stands in such stark contrast to where we\u2019re at today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat word you picked up, Dave, about intimacy, I absolutely think is true\u2014that we are living in a world where we have curated this vision of who we want other people to think that we are. We don\u2019t want people to see us as we really are\u2014and not only in a spiritual or in a vulnerable way\u2014but in a very physical way too. In terms of sexual intimacy coming from, also, just a lack of vulnerability and intimacy in just everyday life, I definitely think that could be a cause.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay; last question. We\u2019re just going to squeeze this in because we only have a little bit of time. [Laughter] A husband comes to you and says: \u201cWhen I got married, I thought my wife\u2019s level of spiritual interest was higher than it has proven to be. I miscalculated. I thought she was on fire for the Lord and, now, she doesn\u2019t want to go to church. I\u2019m wondering if she\u2019s even a believer at this point,\u201d\u2014or maybe\u2014\u201cShe said, \u2018I used to believe, but I don\u2019t anymore,\u2019 and it feels like part of our marriage has died. How can I be <em>one<\/em> with somebody who doesn\u2019t share what is the most important thing in my life?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> It\u2019s a common issue that comes up, where we find couples, who are in unequally-yoked relationships or where, like you said, maybe, they go into the relationship both espousing and holding on to certain beliefs but, over time, those beliefs dissipate and begin to disappear. The spouse who\u2019s in that position\/the believing spouse in that position needs a lot of encouragement; they need a lot of hope. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe one thing I\u2019ll tell them is: \u201cGod has you there for a reason. This isn\u2019t a mistake.\u201d I\u2019ll tell couples a lot of times, not only in this situation: \u201cThe person to whom you are married is the person to whom God wants you to be married to right now. This is God\u2019s will right now for your life. So what do you do with that? How do you make the most of it? How can you take what God has stewarded to you and use it for His glory?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the first things that I try to help spouses realize, as it relates to their unbelieving spouse, is: \u201cYou can\u2019t control them. You can\u2019t do the work of conversion; that\u2019s the work of the Holy Spirit in their life, and so that\u2019s what we pray towards.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the biggest things\u2014as we know, not only in this situation, but in <em>many<\/em> other marriage counseling situations\u2014is we want to change our spouse; right? [Laughter] We just wish that we could change who they are, what they do, or bad habits, etc. When it comes to things of faith, of course, this is the ultimate: \u201cI wish my spouse believed what I believed and held the same values that I did.\u201d In counseling that person to understanding what\u2019s within your control and what\u2019s outside of your control. The best thing that you can always do is to live a life that\u2019s worthy and pleasing and honoring to God. That is your best apologetic\u2014not only to an unbelieving world\u2014but to an unbelieving spouse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u201cDo I try to get them to go to church with me or do I just pray and live my life?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I think that you can do both. Sometimes, you go through seasons where maybe you have a lot of things you want them to do and participate in; and it can, maybe, turn them off from church\u2014you know, you\u2019re always at church and encouraging them to come to church. And then, there\u2019s other spouses, who take a little bit more of a hands-off approach and: \u201cWell, I\u2019m just going to let them do whatever they want, and I\u2019ll pray about it.\u201d I think it\u2019s probably a mix of both.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, 1 Peter 3 does speak to this with wives\u2014that you win your husband without a word. Your behavior is a part of what does it. But that doesn\u2019t mean you can\u2019t encourage friends to pray with you or to come alongside you in this situation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; and one other dynamic, just really quickly; sometimes, I\u2019ll see is\u2014sometimes, in unequally-yoked marriages, is that the believing spouse will almost kind of leave their other spouse just kind of out there; because they will become <em>so<\/em> devoted to the church, that they\u2019ll neglect their marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, it sounds like a little bit of an ironic thing\u2014where you really have a high view of marriage\u2014but yet your spouse, who doesn\u2019t share your beliefs, doesn\u2019t really feel that\/doesn\u2019t actually see you living it out: \u201cYou\u2019re at church every single night, serving; and you\u2019re not here, present, at home with the kids or with me.\u201d Sometimes, the best testimony, I think, for an unbelieving spouse is to see their believing spouse engage with them\u2014to actually share the gospel\/ to preach and live life with <em>them<\/em> and not outside the home.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And you know, another tool\u2014Bob, you\u2019re going to agree with this\u2014that\u2019s a <em>phenomenal<\/em> tool for an unbelieving spouse is to get to something\/an environment that would help your marriage, that\u2019s based on Christ, called the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> How many people come to Christ at that weekend because they just get there?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> A lot.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We see three to four percent, a year, who come to faith at a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> getaway. We designed it so that it would be friendly; it\u2019s not designed, specifically, for an unbeliever; but we designed it so it would be as friendly as possible for an unbeliever so that, at the weekend, they\u2019re going: \u201cYou know, I\u2019m okay here. I\u2019m glad we\u2019re here. They\u2019re talking about the Bible and God; I\u2019m okay with that.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mean, if they\u2019re hostile toward the Bible and God, it\u2019s going to be a turnoff. But, if they\u2019re kind of okay hearing about that and they know it\u2019s a Christian deal, they\u2019ll feel comfortable\u2014the speakers are relatable. That\u2019s a big part of what the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> is all about. We <em>want<\/em> it to be a place, where a wife or a husband can bring an unbelieving spouse and have a great weekend\/a great getaway, and hear marriage framed in a gospel perspective.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m just sitting here, looking at what we haven\u2019t had a chance to talk about; right? [Laughter] I\u2019m looking at issues like:\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cIn-law Issues,\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tor like \u201cMiscarriage,\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tor \u201cInfant Loss,\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tor \u201cInfertility,\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tthe number of couples that divide after \u201cA Child Has Died\u201d; \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m looking at issues like: \u201cKids: \u2018We\u2019re not on the same page with parenting,\u2019\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tor \u201cCommunication Has Broken Down\u201d; \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tthere\u2019s \u201cAnger in a Marriage Relationship.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis book that you\u2019ve written, Jonathan, <em>Counsel for Couples<\/em> is a treasure. \u201cIt\u2019s a gift,\u201d I\u2019ve said to the church, to pastors, to all of us who are involved in marriage ministry. Having the time to talk to you about it this week has been a great blessing. Thank you for being here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Thank you so much for having me. It\u2019s been an honor.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019ve got the book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. Again, the title is <em>Counsel for Couples: A Biblical and Practical Guide for Marriage Counseling<\/em> by Jonathan Holmes. You can order it from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order at 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com. Number to call to order <em>Counsel for Couples<\/em> by Jonathan Homes is 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis is one of those times when we kind of wish we could sit down and have a cup of coffee with each individual listener; because the President of FamilyLife, David Robbins, is here with us. This is one of those times for a heart-to-heart with listeners, where we need them to be a part of what God\u2019s doing here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>David:<\/strong> Yes; it is such a treat to get to be a part of what God\u2019s doing. I\u2019d just like to take a moment to talk straight to our listeners to ask you to join us\/to ask you to come alongside FamilyLife. If you enjoy, and appreciate, and believe in the practical biblical help and hope that we bring to you and to others, we want to expand that reach; we want to increase that impact\u2014we want to take it to more people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat is what I, as a president, am really consumed with. I really do believe that families are one of the most untapped resources on the planet to be able to help fulfill the Great Commission, and cause societal change. Getting practical biblical help to more people is really what we\u2019re about. We have this opportunity, with this match, and I want to invite you to participate. If you can give, in any amount, it\u2019s so helpful. I want to invite you to give and be a part of the movement of FamilyLife.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, and we try to make that as easy as possible. You can donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate: 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, keep in mind your donation is going to be matched, dollar for dollar, this week; and we\u2019ll send you, as a thank-you gift, a copy of Dennis and Barbara Rainey\u2019s book, <em>The Art of Parenting<\/em>, either to keep for yourself or to pass on to someone you know. Thanks for standing with us and for helping to expand the reach of FamilyLife all around the world.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you can join us again tomorrow. Nancy Guthrie is going to be with us to talk about how we can teach our kids to pray and how we can more effectively pray for <em>them<\/em>. That comes up tomorrow. I hope you can be with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/305306","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=305306"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=305306"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=305306"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=305306"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=305306"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=305306"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=305306"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}