{"id":305301,"date":"2019-08-27T06:00:04","date_gmt":"2019-08-27T10:00:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/tackling-the-tough-issues\/"},"modified":"2019-08-27T06:00:04","modified_gmt":"2019-08-27T10:00:04","slug":"tackling-the-tough-issues","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/tackling-the-tough-issues\/","title":{"rendered":"Tackling the Tough Issues"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Jonathan Holmes, the founder and executive director of Fieldstone Counseling, tackles common problems couples face today, like infidelity and pornography. He also talks about the importance of forgiveness and the necessity of rebuilding trust.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Jonathan Holmes tackles common problems couples face today, like infidelity and pornography. He also talks about the importance of forgiveness and the necessity of rebuilding trust.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-08-27.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:28:23","filesize":"25.99M","filesize_raw":"27250510","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[10443,2902],"tags":[6689,2699,4874,6690,2989],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[9555],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-305301","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-christian-marriage-counseling","category-resolving-conflict","tag-counsel-for-couples","tag-forgiveness","tag-infidelity","tag-marriage-in-crisis","tag-pornography","cwp_profile-jonathan-holmes","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/305301\/tackling-the-tough-issues","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/305301\/tackling-the-tough-issues","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"m2snRuJ4Zt\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/tackling-the-tough-issues\/\">Tackling the Tough Issues<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/tackling-the-tough-issues\/embed\/#?secret=m2snRuJ4Zt\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Tackling the Tough Issues&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"m2snRuJ4Zt\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-08-27.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-08-27.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>When husbands and wives sin against each other in marriage, are they committed to seeking and granting forgiveness, as the Bible teaches? Jonathan Holmes says that happens less often than you think.\n\n<strong>Jonathan: <\/strong>I find\u2014not only are couples not having a biblical-theology of forgiveness\u2014they don\u2019t even use the <em>word<\/em>, \u201cforgiveness.\u201d Couples will use the language of apology. I tell couples all the time, \u201cYou\u2019re never going to find the word, \u2018apology,\u2019 in the Bible\u2014it\u2019s just not there.\u201d It\u2019s the language of <em>forgiveness<\/em>. David Palisin, who recently passed away, famously said that the five hardest words to say are: \u201cI\u2019m sorry. Please forgive me,\u201d in marriage. Being able to say that\u2014that requires a lot of humility. I think that it requires the Spirit\u2019s leading in people\u2019s lives.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, August 27<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll talk today about the path couples can follow that leads them to forgiveness, reconciliation, rebuilding trust and hope for their marriage. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I want you to imagine that this is your day tomorrow; okay? You call your administrative assistant, and you say, \u201cWhat\u2019s on my calendar for tomorrow?\u201d She says: \u201cWell, nine o\u2019clock, you\u2019re meeting with a couple\u2014one of the spouses has cheated on the other. You\u2019ve got an hour with them. At ten o\u2019clock, you\u2019re meeting with a couple. The husband has\u2014she\u2019s just found out that her husband\u2019s looking at porn. At eleven o\u2019clock, you\u2019re going to meet with a couple\u2014and it\u2019s actually with the man who just wants to talk with you, because his wife\u2019s not a believer\u2014it\u2019s a wedge in their relationship.\n\n\u201cThen after lunch, there\u2019s a guy who wants to meet with you because his intimate relationship with his wife\u2014he\u2019s frustrated. Then, there\u2019s an abuse case that afternoon. Then, there are couples, who are wrestling with issues with their kids.\u201d\n\nYou\u2019d call in sick; right? [Laughter] Isn\u2019t that what you\u2019d do if that was your schedule for tomorrow?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Not going to the office that day\u2014I\u2019d send in Ann. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yet, you\u2019ve had and we\u2019ve had all those conversations.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, sure.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That list is not something I just pulled out of thin air. It\u2019s actually from the table of contents from a book called<em> Counsel for Couples: a Biblical and Practical Guide for Marriage Counseling<\/em> written by Jonathan Holmes, who\u2019s joining us this week on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Welcome, again, Jonathan.\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Thank you for having me.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Jonathan is the pastor of counseling at Parkside Church in Ohio, where Alistair Begg is the senior pastor. He\u2019s Executive Director of the Fieldstone Counseling Center there\u2014that\u2019s part of the church; right?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The second half of this book, you take each of the scenarios, that I just shared for Dave, and kind of go piece by piece. These are the big issues that you\u2019re dealing with in marriage.\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Right; they\u2019re the big issues of both sin and suffering. We address issues\u2014not only of sexual sin or communication\u2014but couples struggling with their children, couples struggling with being in unequally-yoked marriages, or infertility and miscarriage.\n\nOne of the things that, I think, can frighten pastors, or just everyday people in the church, is\u2014we don\u2019t have answers for that specific issue. What I try to do in every chapter is give you a starting point: give you some questions to ask, give you some passages of Scripture that you can go to, as well as including some real-life stories. There\u2019s actual testimonials in every chapter from couples, I\u2019ve had the privilege of walking alongside, to bring a very normal flavor to the work we\u2019re trying to do here.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I mentioned that Dave would call in sick if this was his day. This is <em>your<\/em> day\u2014\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> This is my day. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014pretty much, day in and day out.\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Let\u2019s model this for some folks. Let me just start with the first one\u2014the first one is: \u201cMy spouse cheated on me.\u201d If you\u2019re sitting down with a couple\u2014and you say, \u201cTell me what\u2019s going on,\u201d\u2014and the husband says: \u201cWell, I got home from work the other night. There was a message on the cell phone\/my wife\u2019s cell phone, and I asked her about it. It all unraveled; she\u2019s been with a guy for the last six months.\n\n\u201cI\u2019m wondering: \u2018What do I do?\u2019\/\u2018What do we do?\u2019\u2014whether this is the end of our marriage. I\u2019m angry. So, help us out, Jonathan.\u201d How are you going to start that conversation?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cSave us!\u201d\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Well, listen, when we think about infidelity\u2014I mean, infidelity happens. It happens in the church; it happens in Christian marriages. One of the first things I think that counselors, and pastors, and ministry leaders can do is\u2014don\u2019t express surprise\u2014this is real life in a messy world. Instead of conveying surprise and \u201cOh, I can\u2019t believe this is happening to you,\u201d we want to move forward and we want to listen.\n\nWe\u2019ll say: \u201cWell, talk to me. What\u2019s going on? How can I be of help?\u201d\u2014that\u2019s always one of the very first questions I\u2019ll ask, \u201cHow can <em>I<\/em> be of help?\u201d Before I ever start saying: \u201cHey, you should do this,\u201d or \u201cKick that guy to the curb,\u201d or \u201cHire a lawyer,\u201d or \u201cWhere are the kids at right now?\u201d\u2014I say, \u201cWhat would be most helpful for you right now?\u201d\n\nThe follow-up to that is to make sure we don\u2019t over-promise and under-deliver on care. Unfortunately, in the church, a lot of times, I see that\u2014where people will say, \u201cWhatever you need, we\u2019re here for you!\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Good intentions.\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Good intentions: \u201cHere\u2019s my cell phone number. You can call or text me any time of the day if you need anything.\u201d It can set up unhealthy expectations, which I think then, a lot of times, that\u2019s what causes people to move away from that type of care; because they realize they can\u2019t fulfill those types of expectations.\n\nSo, going into it, inquiring of how you can be helpful; and then making sure that you don\u2019t over-promise and under-deliver on your care: \u201cHere\u2019s what I\u2019m <em>able<\/em> to do\u2026\u201d \u201cHere\u2019s what I <em>want<\/em> to be able to help you do in the midst of this trial\u2026\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> My first instinct in that situation\u2014if I\u2019m sitting with this couple, I\u2019d want to hear the story; let them tell the story from both sides. Then I\u2019d want to make sure that, in the midst of that, I acknowledged the reality of the harm\/the pain\u2014that I didn\u2019t just quickly move to solution\u2014\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; absolutely.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014but to just say, \u201cWhat you\u2019ve just described to me is really a <em>big deal<\/em> and something that is devastating for marriages. I can\u2019t imagine the suffering that you\u2019re feeling\u2014the guilt\/the shame you may have.\u201d To kind of have that description\u2014that\u2019s important, as a baseline, before we get to solution. Why is that so critical?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> It\u2019s critical because we don\u2019t want to move forward without having understanding of the people in front of us; because, if we do, we can offer short-sighted answers; we can offer simplistic answers; we can offer unbiblical answers\u2014we can offer things that, at the end of the day, are actually going to hurt the relationship.\n\nWe can have such a high view of marriage that, when we are moving towards people in grief and pain, that sometimes, we can minimize their experience; because we just say, \u201cListen, God loves marriage. He wants you to be married. You guys are going to get through it.\u201d We try to tie a bow on their grief and on their suffering\u2014especially the spouse who has been offended and who\u2019s been on the receiving end of their other spouse\u2019s adultery. I think we can actually have a high view of marriage and walk with couples in the midst of their pain and suffering during infidelity.\n\nBut that aspect you mentioned, Bob\u2014of having a good understanding of what\u2019s going on\u2014is <em>critically<\/em> important.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> When I think about meeting with a couple, I think about all the small group leaders in churches that are confronted with this; and this maybe happens in their group. Anyone can ask the question, \u201cHow can I help?\u201d What\u2019s the response that most people will give from that question?\u2014what will they say?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> A lot of times, I think they want pragmatic advice. They want to know what they should <em>do<\/em>: they want to know if they should leave; they want to know if they should have their spouse leave; they want to know what they should do with their kids; should they call a lawyer?\u2014should they get a restraining order? A lot of times, what they want to think about are more pragmatic things.\n\nOne of the things I\u2019ll encourage couples to do is\u2014I\u2019ll say: \u201cWe don\u2019t need to make any big decisions <em>right now<\/em>. You\u2019re feeling a lot of pressure to make arrangements or address this. Let\u2019s just push \u2018Pause.\u2019 For one week\/for two weeks, let\u2019s just get a handle on what\u2019s going on.\u201d\n\nOne of the reasons for that is, oftentimes, when you\u2019re counseling couples, who have been through infidelity, there\u2019s a timetable issue\u2014I like to say\u2014that the spouse, who has either had their infidelity discovered or he\u2019s confessed it, is at a different timetable than the spouse, who\u2019s receiving this for the first time. He might have had a long time to deal with it\u2014to process it, to come to a sense that he needs to share this with his wife, and he\u2019s ready to\u2014he\u2019s actually ready to move forward in reconciliation.\n\nHis wife is hearing this for the first time, and she is at a <em>completely <\/em>different spot. What we can do\u2014in an unhelpful way\u2014kind of hurry the process along because we want to mend it back together and not do the hard work of really addressing what\u2019s going on.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> What do you see in terms of\u2014I know you have stories throughout the book and testimonies\u2014do marriages, that fight through an affair, do they make it?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; I want to say an unqualified, \u201cYes,\u201d to that. In secular marriage therapy, affairs can go either way. A lot of therapists would say that you can survive an affair, but I would say a large percentage of marriage and family therapists would say: \u201cYou know what? Affairs are marriage-enders. You probably aren\u2019t going to be able to recover.\u201d One of the reasons why I think they can\u2019t recover is that they don\u2019t have a theology of forgiveness. They don\u2019t have a biblical theology of: \u201cWhat do I do with this hurt and with this pain?\u201d\n\nI would definitely want to make sure that the timing is right, but I always want to offer hope to couples that are victims of infidelity. That might not be the very first thing I say the first few sentences; but definitely, within the span of that first session, I do want to offer them hope. I want to say: \u201cListen, I want you to take my word for it. I know that you\u2019re maybe not there right now, but I do want you to know that this marriage is <em>not<\/em> beyond the reach of God\u2019s grace and beyond the reach of hope. I know that you might not <em>feel<\/em> that right now; but I want you to know that, from me, right now.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, the person, who says: \u201cI just found out my spouse cheated on me. I just got the Get-out-of-marriage-free card, because adultery is one of those things I can have a divorce.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It\u2019s grounds for divorce; right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right; so, if that\u2019s their first thing\u2014is kind of like: \u201cOkay; I\u2019ve been waiting for a chance. Now, I\u2019ve got the card. I\u2019m ready to play it,\u201d\u2014what do you say to them?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Again, that\u2019s where I try to counsel people not to make big decisions. I\u2019ll try to build rapport; I\u2019ll try to empathize\u2014I\u2019ll say: \u201cI can understand why you\u2019re saying that. I can understand the frustration\/the heartache. I can understand the desire to want to get out of this marriage,\u201d \u201c\u2026to want to kick him to the curb\/to kick her to the curb,\u201d\u2014or whatever\u2014\u201cBut let\u2019s push, \u2018Pause,\u2019 on that. We don\u2019t need to make that decision right now. You\u2019ve invested 10-15 years into this. I would hate to see you just, in a rash moment, just make a declaration that is going to throw away that amount of time that you\u2019ve invested in the relationship.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You mentioned forgiveness and the theology of forgiveness\u2014I think you\u2019re right; that\u2019s central to all of this. I\u2019d say, before you get to forgiveness, the person, who has been the offender, needs to really own and understand the depth and the weight of their offense\u2014not trivialize it\/not write it off\u2014but really understand, \u201cWhat I did\u2026\u201d\u2014the way David understands it, in Psalm 53, when he says, \u201cGod, against You, and You only have I sinned\u2026\"\u2014\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and recognizes the crushing nature of that. There\u2019s genuine, not just worldly sorrow, but godly sorrow; right? Then you get to, \u201cHow do we deal with this and come to forgiveness?\u201d\n\nThere\u2019s another aspect here\u2014where we\u2019ve now gotten forgiveness\u2014but the rebuilding of trust\u2014this is where, I think, a lot of couples think: \u201cWhen we get to forgiveness, we should be at the end of the road.\u201d And yet, there\u2019s still another step: \u201cHow do we rebuild trust?\u201d \u201cHow can I ever trust this person again, when we had two years, and I didn\u2019t know this was going on for two years? I thought everything was okay. How can I ever trust this person again?\u201d\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Right; a lot of times, when infidelity happens, I\u2019ll find that husbands will say: \u201cHey, I asked her to forgive me; I confessed, and she\u2019s not trusting me again.\u201d That\u2019s where you realize you have to do a little bit of teaching, and marriage counseling, and marriage enrichment\u2014that forgiveness is <em>not<\/em> the same thing as reconciliation. Forgiveness is the event that <em>paves<\/em> the way for reconciliation to happen.\n\nThat process of rebuilding trust takes time. That process of rebuilding trust is also active. You know, we talk about trusting the Lord\u2014that\u2019s not something that just happens naturally; it\u2019s something that we, actually, actively participate in.\n\nWhen couples are trying to rebuild trust, a lot of times, I feel like they feel like it\u2019s just something that\u2019s going to happen to them: that the wife\u2019s just going to naturally develop more <em>feelings<\/em> of trust; or the husband is, naturally, going to feel more feelings of trust for his wife. I actually find that couples have to work at it. They actually have to <em>rebuild<\/em> trust through some practical things\u2014through seeking each other\u2019s forgiveness, through staying true to their word, through accountability, through counseling, through a lot of different things that actually prove out the genuineness of their confession and repentance.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So, when the one spouse, who cheated, says: \u201cYou just need to forgive me. You just need to trust me,\u201d what should the response of the other person be?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I say an honest response to that is, \u201cI\u2019m not ready to trust you right now, and I\u2019m actually not ready to forgive you right now.\u201d I actually want couples to be honest about that before they prematurely offer it and then hold themselves to the promises of what biblical forgiveness is. Then, what happens is\u2014a couple will say, \u201cYou need to forgive me,\u201d or \u201cYou need to trust me,\u201d and the other spouse will feel pressured to do that.\n\nThey\u2019ll actually take that word, \u201cforgiveness,\u201d and they\u2019ll sully it. They actually won\u2019t do what the Bible requires them to do with forgiveness\u2014it kind of loses its power. A husband will say: \u201cForgive me,\u201d \u201cForgive me for that,\u201d \u201cForgive me for that,\u201d or they\u2019ll make endless apologies.\n\nI actually want you to <em>know<\/em> what you mean when you\u2019re asking your spouse to forgive you.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Talk about that. You have a theology of forgiveness in the book; you talk about it\u2019s vertical and horizontal. You just mentioned biblical forgiveness. I think some of us are like: \u201cOkay; get specific. What do you mean?\u201d\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Biblical forgiveness, to me, is this\u2014is that we go to the Bible to define it. In Matthew 18\u2014in the parable of the unmerciful servant, we see three movements in Matthew 18\u2014where the king, as it relates to the servant, is moved with compassion. He forgives the debt, and he cancels the debt.\n\nI think that threefold movement of forgiveness there is what embodies and exemplifies God\u2019s forgiveness of us\u2014that He moves towards us in love\u2014that He shows us His love in that, \u201cWhile we were still sinners, Christ died for us,\u201d\u2014that He forgives us of our debt\u2014but that He actually cancels our debt too. It\u2019s not that He just says, \u201cListen, you can get out of jail\u201d; it\u2019s as if that debt were no more because, \u201cI now see my Son\u2019s righteousness accredited to your account.\u201d That\u2019s what I mean when I talk about forgiveness.\n\nWhen a couple is talking about forgiveness, or a couple that maybe doesn\u2019t have the biblical teaching of forgiveness, I normally find that they use the language of apology. They actually don\u2019t even use the word, \u201cforgiveness.\u201d They\u2019ll just say: \u201cWell, I apologized; I said, \u2018I\u2019m sorry.\u2019 I told her I\u2019m sorry that I\u2019m not the husband that she needs,\u201d\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019ve heard that so often!\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014or \u201cI\u2019m sorry I can\u2019t be the wife\u2026\u201d [Voices talking over each other.]\n\nI find\u2014not only are couples not having a biblical theology of forgiveness\u2014they don\u2019t even use the word, \u201cforgiveness.\u201d Couples will use the language of apology. I tell couples all the time, \u201cYou\u2019re never going to find the word, \u2018apology,\u2019 in the Bible\u2014it\u2019s just not there.\u201d It\u2019s the language of <em>forgiveness. <\/em>David Palisin, who recently passed away, famously said that the five hardest words to say are: \u201cI\u2019m sorry. Please forgive me,\u201d in marriage. Being able to say that\u2014that requires a lot of humility. I think that it requires the Spirit\u2019s leading in people\u2019s lives.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And again, once forgiveness is sought and granted, we\u2019re still not at the end; because the rebuilding of trust: \u201cI can forgive you\u201d\u2014I\u2019ve used this illustration\u2014your son comes home, walks in and goes:, \u201cI messed up with the car tonight. I was driving too fast. It spun, and I ran into something.\u201d\n\nYour first thing is: \u201cAre you okay?\u201d\u2014right? \u201cYou\u2019re okay; how about the car?\u201d \u201cThe car is a mess; and in fact, it\u2019s probably totaled.\u201d You sense, as a parent, from your son: \u201cI realize what I did. I was not being responsible. I am <em>really<\/em> sorry. Will you please forgive me?\u201d As a parent, you say, \u201cYes; I forgive you.\u201d\n\nThen he says, \u201cCan I have the keys to Mom\u2019s car?\u201d [Chuckling] You go: \u201cNo, no, no, no, no. We\u2019ve still got some work to do before you\u2019re getting the keys to Mom\u2019s car.\u201d\n\nThis is where a lot of couples will get to the forgiveness moment in an infidelity situation and they\u2019ll say, \u201cOkay; we\u2019ve forgiven each other; now, we\u2019ve arrived.\u201d But the rebuilding of trust\u2014the formula I\u2019ve told people through the years is: \u201cYour spouse is going to need to see consistent behavior over time. They\u2019re going to need to see that you are functioning differently than\u2014this is what they <em>thought<\/em> before; they need to see something different than they thought before to know that you\u2019re a different person: your values are different; you\u2019re not falling prey to this again.\u201d\n\nI\u2019ve had friends, who have said to me, \u201cHow long is that time?\u201d I say, \u201cWe don\u2019t know.\u201d \u201cLike weeks?\u2014like months?\u201d \u201cIt could be years.\u201d \u201cYou mean, I could be in prison for years?\u201d I go: \u201cNo; you shouldn\u2019t be in prison, because forgiveness has happened. But you should be accountable. You should be <em>wanting<\/em> to rebuild trust; you should be <em>wanting <\/em>your spouse to say, \u2018I can trust you,\u2019 so you should be bending over backwards to say: \u2018I want to <em>demonstrate<\/em> my trustworthiness to you. What is it going to take for me to do that?\u2019\u201d\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> That\u2019s where Luther said, \u201cAll of the Christian life is repentance.\u201d I think, sometimes, husbands and wives want to put an expiration date on that process, especially in infidelity. The husband will say: \u201cListen, I\u2019ve had good behavior for four years,\u201d\u2014or \u201c\u2026for four months,\u201d rather\u2014\u201dI haven\u2019t looked at pornography for four months,\u201d or \u201cI\u2019ve not done this or that.\u201d\n\nI always tell them that part of godly sorrow that leads to repentance\u2014there\u2019s an eagerness; there\u2019s a zealousness, Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians, to clear your name\u2014that there\u2019s an eagerness to see right things done. That is a process, and I don\u2019t think we can put an expiration date on it.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> As we talk about trust, and this whole issue of forgiveness, would this be the same kind of thing if a spouse comes and says, \u201cI need to confess I\u2019ve been struggling with porn\u201d?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Ann, that\u2019s such a good question. I think it probably varies from couple to couple.\n\nOne of the things I try to be sensitive to, when there\u2019s pornography involved\u2014for sake of illustration, I\u2019ll just take the husband, who\u2019s looking at pornography in a marriage. A lot of times\u2014I\u2019ll try to get a session or I\u2019ll get some time alone with the wife or with another woman with her, to just say:\n\nHey, I think that, biblically and relationally, you\u2019re entitled to know what your husband is doing\u2014to talk about what he\u2019s viewing\/the content. But I also want to let you know that the more that we get descriptive, in terms of what\u2019s going on, the more difficult it\u2019s going to be, I think, for you, as a woman, to deal with that, and with your heart, and with your mind.\n\nOne of my encouragements would be to engage the use of an accountability partner, or a close friend, or a pastor, or a mentor, so that he can be discussing and dialoguing through some of these things with your husband; so that you can be a wife, and not a counselor or an accountability partner.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You ready for a hard one? [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; I feel like all these have been hard! [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I was going to say, \u201cHard-er?!\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Have there been situations, where you\u2019ve sat with a couple, in the case of repeated infidelity\u2014and that\u2019s been the issue in their marriage\u2014and you\u2019ve come to the conclusion that divorce is the right solution in this situation?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good question\u2014it\u2019s a hard one. I would say, personally, I would never commend it to a couple as an option. What I will do, though, is\u2014I will say: \u201cThere is <em>permission<\/em>. There is a clause here that we see in Scripture that you do have a way of escape. I\u2019m not counseling you towards that\u2014I\u2019m not saying, \u2018Go to that,\u2019\u2014but I\u2019m telling you that it\u2019s an option\/that there is a permission here that Jesus gives us, here, in the Gospels.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s a good approach\/a good answer to say to somebody, \u201cMy hope\/my desire is that both of you can get to a place where you can pursue reconciliation.\u201d I think that\u2019s God\u2019s hope; that\u2019s God\u2019s desire. The Bible is a story of reconciliation\u2014a fractured relationship, where there was infidelity\/spiritual infidelity, and where God bent over backwards, sending His own Son, to be reconciled with the infidel. That\u2019s the big story of the Bible\u2014is that not what God would want for your marriage?\n\nWith that said, I have been with a wife, where the husband was <em>not<\/em> repentant\u2014was a serial adulterer, persisting in his sin. For the sake of protection\/for her physical protection, I\u2019ve had to say, \u201cWith a heart still aimed at reconciliation, it may be that either a legal separation\u201d\u2014in some cases there\u2019s not provision for that in the civil law\u2014\u201cbut you may need some protection that the state requires while you continue to pray for, and hope for, and want your husband to repent and the marriage to be reconciled.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> What happened?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> In any level of accountability with that husband, he fled accountability. I would say, before the wife had to pursue anything, the unbeliever left. I think, sometimes, when you pursue somebody, who\u2019s in sin and keep holding them accountable\u2014not just as a spouse but as a community of faith coming around\u2014that person is either going to repent or they are going to say, \u201cI\u2019ve got to get out of here.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m encouraged by this conversation, because we just tackled a couple of the <em>biggies<\/em>. Maybe I\u2019m wrong; but I\u2019m sitting here, thinking, \u201cMan, all you talked about was speaking the truth in love.\u201d Obviously, there are some <em>big<\/em> decisions that you are going to help a person or a couple walk through; but I\u2019m encouraged; I\u2019m thinking, \u201cAny follower of Christ could do what we just talked about,\u201d especially if they picked up your book, to say, \u201cI need some\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; that book would help!\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> There are some additional resources in the book; yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We do have copies of the book available in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can go, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com to get a copy of Jonathan\u2019s book, <em>Counsel for Couples: A Biblical and Practical Guide for Marriage Counseling<\/em>. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com to order; or call us if you\u2019d like to order a copy. Our number is 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-FL-TODAY\u2014 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nOne of the things we\u2019ve been excited about, here, at FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, over the past several months, is seeing how God is using a resource we created a year ago called the <em>Art of Parenting<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. Not just here in the United States, but in Central and South America, there have been tens of thousands of people getting into <em>Art of Parenting<\/em> groups. They\u2019ve seen the movie, <em>Like Arrows<\/em>, which was translated into Spanish. The video series has been translated as well. In fact, I don\u2019t know if you\u2019ve seen the two of you speaking Spanish.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> No; really?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; I should show you a clip of this.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Que paso?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Actually, you do better than that; because we\u2019ve had translators come in and do the whole video series in Spanish. There are, now, tens of thousands of people in Central and South America, who are going through this content. We\u2019re hoping to do the same thing in Mandarin and in Arabic.\n\nStop and think about the impact of that in marriages and families\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014around the world.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Exactly!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That is amazing.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Honestly, when Ann and I sat and watched the<em> Art of Parenting<\/em>\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Nice job, Bob; because you produced it.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It was tremendous. We honestly thought: \u201cThis is legacy changing. Every young family, and older family, needs to watch this.\u201d Here\u2019s the thing nobody thinks about, \u201cHow did it happen?\u201d Somebody made a donation; somebody said: \u201cI believe in this. I want to help others who have helped me.\u201d It\u2019s a sacrificial gift they made, and it\u2019s changing the world!\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And now, for that to spread, we need listeners to help us move things further. The good thing is\u2014if you make a donation this week, not only are you helping advance the ministry of FamilyLife, but your donation is going to be matched, dollar for dollar, up to a total of $500,000. We\u2019re hoping to take full advantage of the matching gift. We need to hear from you this week in order for your donation to be matched.\n\nIf you\u2019re able to donate this week, we\u2019d love to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d by sending you a copy of Dennis and Barbara Rainey\u2019s book, <em>The Art of Parenting<\/em>,either to keep for yourself or to pass on to someone you know, who would benefit from that book. It\u2019s easy to donate. You can do it, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. We want to say, \u201cThanks,\u201d in advance, for partnering with us and extending the reach of this ministry to people all around the world.\n\nWe hope you\u2019re able to join us, again, tomorrow. Jonathan Holmes will be here again. We\u2019re going to talk about how we can come alongside couples in difficult, stressful situations and bring them comfort and bring them hope from the Scriptures. We\u2019re going to talk about what you do if you know somebody, who is in an abusive relationship, tomorrow, among other things. I hope you can be here for that.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. 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Holmes tackles common problems couples face today, like infidelity and pornography. He also talks about the importance of forgiveness and the necessity of rebuilding trust.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-08-27.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>When husbands and wives sin against each other in marriage, are they committed to seeking and granting forgiveness, as the Bible teaches? Jonathan Holmes says that happens less often than you think.\n\n<strong>Jonathan: <\/strong>I find\u2014not only are couples not having a biblical-theology of forgiveness\u2014they don\u2019t even use the <em>word<\/em>, \u201cforgiveness.\u201d Couples will use the language of apology. I tell couples all the time, \u201cYou\u2019re never going to find the word, \u2018apology,\u2019 in the Bible\u2014it\u2019s just not there.\u201d It\u2019s the language of <em>forgiveness<\/em>. David Palisin, who recently passed away, famously said that the five hardest words to say are: \u201cI\u2019m sorry. Please forgive me,\u201d in marriage. Being able to say that\u2014that requires a lot of humility. I think that it requires the Spirit\u2019s leading in people\u2019s lives.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, August 27<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll talk today about the path couples can follow that leads them to forgiveness, reconciliation, rebuilding trust and hope for their marriage. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I want you to imagine that this is your day tomorrow; okay? You call your administrative assistant, and you say, \u201cWhat\u2019s on my calendar for tomorrow?\u201d She says: \u201cWell, nine o\u2019clock, you\u2019re meeting with a couple\u2014one of the spouses has cheated on the other. You\u2019ve got an hour with them. At ten o\u2019clock, you\u2019re meeting with a couple. The husband has\u2014she\u2019s just found out that her husband\u2019s looking at porn. At eleven o\u2019clock, you\u2019re going to meet with a couple\u2014and it\u2019s actually with the man who just wants to talk with you, because his wife\u2019s not a believer\u2014it\u2019s a wedge in their relationship.\n\n\u201cThen after lunch, there\u2019s a guy who wants to meet with you because his intimate relationship with his wife\u2014he\u2019s frustrated. Then, there\u2019s an abuse case that afternoon. Then, there are couples, who are wrestling with issues with their kids.\u201d\n\nYou\u2019d call in sick; right? [Laughter] Isn\u2019t that what you\u2019d do if that was your schedule for tomorrow?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Not going to the office that day\u2014I\u2019d send in Ann. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yet, you\u2019ve had and we\u2019ve had all those conversations.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, sure.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That list is not something I just pulled out of thin air. It\u2019s actually from the table of contents from a book called<em> Counsel for Couples: a Biblical and Practical Guide for Marriage Counseling<\/em> written by Jonathan Holmes, who\u2019s joining us this week on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Welcome, again, Jonathan.\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Thank you for having me.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Jonathan is the pastor of counseling at Parkside Church in Ohio, where Alistair Begg is the senior pastor. He\u2019s Executive Director of the Fieldstone Counseling Center there\u2014that\u2019s part of the church; right?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The second half of this book, you take each of the scenarios, that I just shared for Dave, and kind of go piece by piece. These are the big issues that you\u2019re dealing with in marriage.\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Right; they\u2019re the big issues of both sin and suffering. We address issues\u2014not only of sexual sin or communication\u2014but couples struggling with their children, couples struggling with being in unequally-yoked marriages, or infertility and miscarriage.\n\nOne of the things that, I think, can frighten pastors, or just everyday people in the church, is\u2014we don\u2019t have answers for that specific issue. What I try to do in every chapter is give you a starting point: give you some questions to ask, give you some passages of Scripture that you can go to, as well as including some real-life stories. There\u2019s actual testimonials in every chapter from couples, I\u2019ve had the privilege of walking alongside, to bring a very normal flavor to the work we\u2019re trying to do here.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I mentioned that Dave would call in sick if this was his day. This is <em>your<\/em> day\u2014\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> This is my day. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014pretty much, day in and day out.\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Let\u2019s model this for some folks. Let me just start with the first one\u2014the first one is: \u201cMy spouse cheated on me.\u201d If you\u2019re sitting down with a couple\u2014and you say, \u201cTell me what\u2019s going on,\u201d\u2014and the husband says: \u201cWell, I got home from work the other night. There was a message on the cell phone\/my wife\u2019s cell phone, and I asked her about it. It all unraveled; she\u2019s been with a guy for the last six months.\n\n\u201cI\u2019m wondering: \u2018What do I do?\u2019\/\u2018What do we do?\u2019\u2014whether this is the end of our marriage. I\u2019m angry. So, help us out, Jonathan.\u201d How are you going to start that conversation?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cSave us!\u201d\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Well, listen, when we think about infidelity\u2014I mean, infidelity happens. It happens in the church; it happens in Christian marriages. One of the first things I think that counselors, and pastors, and ministry leaders can do is\u2014don\u2019t express surprise\u2014this is real life in a messy world. Instead of conveying surprise and \u201cOh, I can\u2019t believe this is happening to you,\u201d we want to move forward and we want to listen.\n\nWe\u2019ll say: \u201cWell, talk to me. What\u2019s going on? How can I be of help?\u201d\u2014that\u2019s always one of the very first questions I\u2019ll ask, \u201cHow can <em>I<\/em> be of help?\u201d Before I ever start saying: \u201cHey, you should do this,\u201d or \u201cKick that guy to the curb,\u201d or \u201cHire a lawyer,\u201d or \u201cWhere are the kids at right now?\u201d\u2014I say, \u201cWhat would be most helpful for you right now?\u201d\n\nThe follow-up to that is to make sure we don\u2019t over-promise and under-deliver on care. Unfortunately, in the church, a lot of times, I see that\u2014where people will say, \u201cWhatever you need, we\u2019re here for you!\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Good intentions.\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Good intentions: \u201cHere\u2019s my cell phone number. You can call or text me any time of the day if you need anything.\u201d It can set up unhealthy expectations, which I think then, a lot of times, that\u2019s what causes people to move away from that type of care; because they realize they can\u2019t fulfill those types of expectations.\n\nSo, going into it, inquiring of how you can be helpful; and then making sure that you don\u2019t over-promise and under-deliver on your care: \u201cHere\u2019s what I\u2019m <em>able<\/em> to do\u2026\u201d \u201cHere\u2019s what I <em>want<\/em> to be able to help you do in the midst of this trial\u2026\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> My first instinct in that situation\u2014if I\u2019m sitting with this couple, I\u2019d want to hear the story; let them tell the story from both sides. Then I\u2019d want to make sure that, in the midst of that, I acknowledged the reality of the harm\/the pain\u2014that I didn\u2019t just quickly move to solution\u2014\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; absolutely.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014but to just say, \u201cWhat you\u2019ve just described to me is really a <em>big deal<\/em> and something that is devastating for marriages. I can\u2019t imagine the suffering that you\u2019re feeling\u2014the guilt\/the shame you may have.\u201d To kind of have that description\u2014that\u2019s important, as a baseline, before we get to solution. Why is that so critical?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> It\u2019s critical because we don\u2019t want to move forward without having understanding of the people in front of us; because, if we do, we can offer short-sighted answers; we can offer simplistic answers; we can offer unbiblical answers\u2014we can offer things that, at the end of the day, are actually going to hurt the relationship.\n\nWe can have such a high view of marriage that, when we are moving towards people in grief and pain, that sometimes, we can minimize their experience; because we just say, \u201cListen, God loves marriage. He wants you to be married. You guys are going to get through it.\u201d We try to tie a bow on their grief and on their suffering\u2014especially the spouse who has been offended and who\u2019s been on the receiving end of their other spouse\u2019s adultery. I think we can actually have a high view of marriage and walk with couples in the midst of their pain and suffering during infidelity.\n\nBut that aspect you mentioned, Bob\u2014of having a good understanding of what\u2019s going on\u2014is <em>critically<\/em> important.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> When I think about meeting with a couple, I think about all the small group leaders in churches that are confronted with this; and this maybe happens in their group. Anyone can ask the question, \u201cHow can I help?\u201d What\u2019s the response that most people will give from that question?\u2014what will they say?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> A lot of times, I think they want pragmatic advice. They want to know what they should <em>do<\/em>: they want to know if they should leave; they want to know if they should have their spouse leave; they want to know what they should do with their kids; should they call a lawyer?\u2014should they get a restraining order? A lot of times, what they want to think about are more pragmatic things.\n\nOne of the things I\u2019ll encourage couples to do is\u2014I\u2019ll say: \u201cWe don\u2019t need to make any big decisions <em>right now<\/em>. You\u2019re feeling a lot of pressure to make arrangements or address this. Let\u2019s just push \u2018Pause.\u2019 For one week\/for two weeks, let\u2019s just get a handle on what\u2019s going on.\u201d\n\nOne of the reasons for that is, oftentimes, when you\u2019re counseling couples, who have been through infidelity, there\u2019s a timetable issue\u2014I like to say\u2014that the spouse, who has either had their infidelity discovered or he\u2019s confessed it, is at a different timetable than the spouse, who\u2019s receiving this for the first time. He might have had a long time to deal with it\u2014to process it, to come to a sense that he needs to share this with his wife, and he\u2019s ready to\u2014he\u2019s actually ready to move forward in reconciliation.\n\nHis wife is hearing this for the first time, and she is at a <em>completely <\/em>different spot. What we can do\u2014in an unhelpful way\u2014kind of hurry the process along because we want to mend it back together and not do the hard work of really addressing what\u2019s going on.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> What do you see in terms of\u2014I know you have stories throughout the book and testimonies\u2014do marriages, that fight through an affair, do they make it?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; I want to say an unqualified, \u201cYes,\u201d to that. In secular marriage therapy, affairs can go either way. A lot of therapists would say that you can survive an affair, but I would say a large percentage of marriage and family therapists would say: \u201cYou know what? Affairs are marriage-enders. You probably aren\u2019t going to be able to recover.\u201d One of the reasons why I think they can\u2019t recover is that they don\u2019t have a theology of forgiveness. They don\u2019t have a biblical theology of: \u201cWhat do I do with this hurt and with this pain?\u201d\n\nI would definitely want to make sure that the timing is right, but I always want to offer hope to couples that are victims of infidelity. That might not be the very first thing I say the first few sentences; but definitely, within the span of that first session, I do want to offer them hope. I want to say: \u201cListen, I want you to take my word for it. I know that you\u2019re maybe not there right now, but I do want you to know that this marriage is <em>not<\/em> beyond the reach of God\u2019s grace and beyond the reach of hope. I know that you might not <em>feel<\/em> that right now; but I want you to know that, from me, right now.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, the person, who says: \u201cI just found out my spouse cheated on me. I just got the Get-out-of-marriage-free card, because adultery is one of those things I can have a divorce.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It\u2019s grounds for divorce; right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right; so, if that\u2019s their first thing\u2014is kind of like: \u201cOkay; I\u2019ve been waiting for a chance. Now, I\u2019ve got the card. I\u2019m ready to play it,\u201d\u2014what do you say to them?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Again, that\u2019s where I try to counsel people not to make big decisions. I\u2019ll try to build rapport; I\u2019ll try to empathize\u2014I\u2019ll say: \u201cI can understand why you\u2019re saying that. I can understand the frustration\/the heartache. I can understand the desire to want to get out of this marriage,\u201d \u201c\u2026to want to kick him to the curb\/to kick her to the curb,\u201d\u2014or whatever\u2014\u201cBut let\u2019s push, \u2018Pause,\u2019 on that. We don\u2019t need to make that decision right now. You\u2019ve invested 10-15 years into this. I would hate to see you just, in a rash moment, just make a declaration that is going to throw away that amount of time that you\u2019ve invested in the relationship.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You mentioned forgiveness and the theology of forgiveness\u2014I think you\u2019re right; that\u2019s central to all of this. I\u2019d say, before you get to forgiveness, the person, who has been the offender, needs to really own and understand the depth and the weight of their offense\u2014not trivialize it\/not write it off\u2014but really understand, \u201cWhat I did\u2026\u201d\u2014the way David understands it, in Psalm 53, when he says, \u201cGod, against You, and You only have I sinned\u2026\"\u2014\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and recognizes the crushing nature of that. There\u2019s genuine, not just worldly sorrow, but godly sorrow; right? Then you get to, \u201cHow do we deal with this and come to forgiveness?\u201d\n\nThere\u2019s another aspect here\u2014where we\u2019ve now gotten forgiveness\u2014but the rebuilding of trust\u2014this is where, I think, a lot of couples think: \u201cWhen we get to forgiveness, we should be at the end of the road.\u201d And yet, there\u2019s still another step: \u201cHow do we rebuild trust?\u201d \u201cHow can I ever trust this person again, when we had two years, and I didn\u2019t know this was going on for two years? I thought everything was okay. How can I ever trust this person again?\u201d\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Right; a lot of times, when infidelity happens, I\u2019ll find that husbands will say: \u201cHey, I asked her to forgive me; I confessed, and she\u2019s not trusting me again.\u201d That\u2019s where you realize you have to do a little bit of teaching, and marriage counseling, and marriage enrichment\u2014that forgiveness is <em>not<\/em> the same thing as reconciliation. Forgiveness is the event that <em>paves<\/em> the way for reconciliation to happen.\n\nThat process of rebuilding trust takes time. That process of rebuilding trust is also active. You know, we talk about trusting the Lord\u2014that\u2019s not something that just happens naturally; it\u2019s something that we, actually, actively participate in.\n\nWhen couples are trying to rebuild trust, a lot of times, I feel like they feel like it\u2019s just something that\u2019s going to happen to them: that the wife\u2019s just going to naturally develop more <em>feelings<\/em> of trust; or the husband is, naturally, going to feel more feelings of trust for his wife. I actually find that couples have to work at it. They actually have to <em>rebuild<\/em> trust through some practical things\u2014through seeking each other\u2019s forgiveness, through staying true to their word, through accountability, through counseling, through a lot of different things that actually prove out the genuineness of their confession and repentance.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So, when the one spouse, who cheated, says: \u201cYou just need to forgive me. You just need to trust me,\u201d what should the response of the other person be?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I say an honest response to that is, \u201cI\u2019m not ready to trust you right now, and I\u2019m actually not ready to forgive you right now.\u201d I actually want couples to be honest about that before they prematurely offer it and then hold themselves to the promises of what biblical forgiveness is. Then, what happens is\u2014a couple will say, \u201cYou need to forgive me,\u201d or \u201cYou need to trust me,\u201d and the other spouse will feel pressured to do that.\n\nThey\u2019ll actually take that word, \u201cforgiveness,\u201d and they\u2019ll sully it. They actually won\u2019t do what the Bible requires them to do with forgiveness\u2014it kind of loses its power. A husband will say: \u201cForgive me,\u201d \u201cForgive me for that,\u201d \u201cForgive me for that,\u201d or they\u2019ll make endless apologies.\n\nI actually want you to <em>know<\/em> what you mean when you\u2019re asking your spouse to forgive you.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Talk about that. You have a theology of forgiveness in the book; you talk about it\u2019s vertical and horizontal. You just mentioned biblical forgiveness. I think some of us are like: \u201cOkay; get specific. What do you mean?\u201d\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Biblical forgiveness, to me, is this\u2014is that we go to the Bible to define it. In Matthew 18\u2014in the parable of the unmerciful servant, we see three movements in Matthew 18\u2014where the king, as it relates to the servant, is moved with compassion. He forgives the debt, and he cancels the debt.\n\nI think that threefold movement of forgiveness there is what embodies and exemplifies God\u2019s forgiveness of us\u2014that He moves towards us in love\u2014that He shows us His love in that, \u201cWhile we were still sinners, Christ died for us,\u201d\u2014that He forgives us of our debt\u2014but that He actually cancels our debt too. It\u2019s not that He just says, \u201cListen, you can get out of jail\u201d; it\u2019s as if that debt were no more because, \u201cI now see my Son\u2019s righteousness accredited to your account.\u201d That\u2019s what I mean when I talk about forgiveness.\n\nWhen a couple is talking about forgiveness, or a couple that maybe doesn\u2019t have the biblical teaching of forgiveness, I normally find that they use the language of apology. They actually don\u2019t even use the word, \u201cforgiveness.\u201d They\u2019ll just say: \u201cWell, I apologized; I said, \u2018I\u2019m sorry.\u2019 I told her I\u2019m sorry that I\u2019m not the husband that she needs,\u201d\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019ve heard that so often!\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014or \u201cI\u2019m sorry I can\u2019t be the wife\u2026\u201d [Voices talking over each other.]\n\nI find\u2014not only are couples not having a biblical theology of forgiveness\u2014they don\u2019t even use the word, \u201cforgiveness.\u201d Couples will use the language of apology. I tell couples all the time, \u201cYou\u2019re never going to find the word, \u2018apology,\u2019 in the Bible\u2014it\u2019s just not there.\u201d It\u2019s the language of <em>forgiveness. <\/em>David Palisin, who recently passed away, famously said that the five hardest words to say are: \u201cI\u2019m sorry. Please forgive me,\u201d in marriage. Being able to say that\u2014that requires a lot of humility. I think that it requires the Spirit\u2019s leading in people\u2019s lives.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And again, once forgiveness is sought and granted, we\u2019re still not at the end; because the rebuilding of trust: \u201cI can forgive you\u201d\u2014I\u2019ve used this illustration\u2014your son comes home, walks in and goes:, \u201cI messed up with the car tonight. I was driving too fast. It spun, and I ran into something.\u201d\n\nYour first thing is: \u201cAre you okay?\u201d\u2014right? \u201cYou\u2019re okay; how about the car?\u201d \u201cThe car is a mess; and in fact, it\u2019s probably totaled.\u201d You sense, as a parent, from your son: \u201cI realize what I did. I was not being responsible. I am <em>really<\/em> sorry. Will you please forgive me?\u201d As a parent, you say, \u201cYes; I forgive you.\u201d\n\nThen he says, \u201cCan I have the keys to Mom\u2019s car?\u201d [Chuckling] You go: \u201cNo, no, no, no, no. We\u2019ve still got some work to do before you\u2019re getting the keys to Mom\u2019s car.\u201d\n\nThis is where a lot of couples will get to the forgiveness moment in an infidelity situation and they\u2019ll say, \u201cOkay; we\u2019ve forgiven each other; now, we\u2019ve arrived.\u201d But the rebuilding of trust\u2014the formula I\u2019ve told people through the years is: \u201cYour spouse is going to need to see consistent behavior over time. They\u2019re going to need to see that you are functioning differently than\u2014this is what they <em>thought<\/em> before; they need to see something different than they thought before to know that you\u2019re a different person: your values are different; you\u2019re not falling prey to this again.\u201d\n\nI\u2019ve had friends, who have said to me, \u201cHow long is that time?\u201d I say, \u201cWe don\u2019t know.\u201d \u201cLike weeks?\u2014like months?\u201d \u201cIt could be years.\u201d \u201cYou mean, I could be in prison for years?\u201d I go: \u201cNo; you shouldn\u2019t be in prison, because forgiveness has happened. But you should be accountable. You should be <em>wanting<\/em> to rebuild trust; you should be <em>wanting <\/em>your spouse to say, \u2018I can trust you,\u2019 so you should be bending over backwards to say: \u2018I want to <em>demonstrate<\/em> my trustworthiness to you. What is it going to take for me to do that?\u2019\u201d\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> That\u2019s where Luther said, \u201cAll of the Christian life is repentance.\u201d I think, sometimes, husbands and wives want to put an expiration date on that process, especially in infidelity. The husband will say: \u201cListen, I\u2019ve had good behavior for four years,\u201d\u2014or \u201c\u2026for four months,\u201d rather\u2014\u201dI haven\u2019t looked at pornography for four months,\u201d or \u201cI\u2019ve not done this or that.\u201d\n\nI always tell them that part of godly sorrow that leads to repentance\u2014there\u2019s an eagerness; there\u2019s a zealousness, Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians, to clear your name\u2014that there\u2019s an eagerness to see right things done. That is a process, and I don\u2019t think we can put an expiration date on it.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> As we talk about trust, and this whole issue of forgiveness, would this be the same kind of thing if a spouse comes and says, \u201cI need to confess I\u2019ve been struggling with porn\u201d?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Ann, that\u2019s such a good question. I think it probably varies from couple to couple.\n\nOne of the things I try to be sensitive to, when there\u2019s pornography involved\u2014for sake of illustration, I\u2019ll just take the husband, who\u2019s looking at pornography in a marriage. A lot of times\u2014I\u2019ll try to get a session or I\u2019ll get some time alone with the wife or with another woman with her, to just say:\n\nHey, I think that, biblically and relationally, you\u2019re entitled to know what your husband is doing\u2014to talk about what he\u2019s viewing\/the content. But I also want to let you know that the more that we get descriptive, in terms of what\u2019s going on, the more difficult it\u2019s going to be, I think, for you, as a woman, to deal with that, and with your heart, and with your mind.\n\nOne of my encouragements would be to engage the use of an accountability partner, or a close friend, or a pastor, or a mentor, so that he can be discussing and dialoguing through some of these things with your husband; so that you can be a wife, and not a counselor or an accountability partner.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You ready for a hard one? [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; I feel like all these have been hard! [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I was going to say, \u201cHard-er?!\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Have there been situations, where you\u2019ve sat with a couple, in the case of repeated infidelity\u2014and that\u2019s been the issue in their marriage\u2014and you\u2019ve come to the conclusion that divorce is the right solution in this situation?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good question\u2014it\u2019s a hard one. I would say, personally, I would never commend it to a couple as an option. What I will do, though, is\u2014I will say: \u201cThere is <em>permission<\/em>. There is a clause here that we see in Scripture that you do have a way of escape. I\u2019m not counseling you towards that\u2014I\u2019m not saying, \u2018Go to that,\u2019\u2014but I\u2019m telling you that it\u2019s an option\/that there is a permission here that Jesus gives us, here, in the Gospels.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s a good approach\/a good answer to say to somebody, \u201cMy hope\/my desire is that both of you can get to a place where you can pursue reconciliation.\u201d I think that\u2019s God\u2019s hope; that\u2019s God\u2019s desire. The Bible is a story of reconciliation\u2014a fractured relationship, where there was infidelity\/spiritual infidelity, and where God bent over backwards, sending His own Son, to be reconciled with the infidel. That\u2019s the big story of the Bible\u2014is that not what God would want for your marriage?\n\nWith that said, I have been with a wife, where the husband was <em>not<\/em> repentant\u2014was a serial adulterer, persisting in his sin. For the sake of protection\/for her physical protection, I\u2019ve had to say, \u201cWith a heart still aimed at reconciliation, it may be that either a legal separation\u201d\u2014in some cases there\u2019s not provision for that in the civil law\u2014\u201cbut you may need some protection that the state requires while you continue to pray for, and hope for, and want your husband to repent and the marriage to be reconciled.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> What happened?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> In any level of accountability with that husband, he fled accountability. I would say, before the wife had to pursue anything, the unbeliever left. I think, sometimes, when you pursue somebody, who\u2019s in sin and keep holding them accountable\u2014not just as a spouse but as a community of faith coming around\u2014that person is either going to repent or they are going to say, \u201cI\u2019ve got to get out of here.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m encouraged by this conversation, because we just tackled a couple of the <em>biggies<\/em>. Maybe I\u2019m wrong; but I\u2019m sitting here, thinking, \u201cMan, all you talked about was speaking the truth in love.\u201d Obviously, there are some <em>big<\/em> decisions that you are going to help a person or a couple walk through; but I\u2019m encouraged; I\u2019m thinking, \u201cAny follower of Christ could do what we just talked about,\u201d especially if they picked up your book, to say, \u201cI need some\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; that book would help!\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> There are some additional resources in the book; yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We do have copies of the book available in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can go, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com to get a copy of Jonathan\u2019s book, <em>Counsel for Couples: A Biblical and Practical Guide for Marriage Counseling<\/em>. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com to order; or call us if you\u2019d like to order a copy. Our number is 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-FL-TODAY\u2014 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nOne of the things we\u2019ve been excited about, here, at FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, over the past several months, is seeing how God is using a resource we created a year ago called the <em>Art of Parenting<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. Not just here in the United States, but in Central and South America, there have been tens of thousands of people getting into <em>Art of Parenting<\/em> groups. They\u2019ve seen the movie, <em>Like Arrows<\/em>, which was translated into Spanish. The video series has been translated as well. In fact, I don\u2019t know if you\u2019ve seen the two of you speaking Spanish.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> No; really?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; I should show you a clip of this.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Que paso?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Actually, you do better than that; because we\u2019ve had translators come in and do the whole video series in Spanish. There are, now, tens of thousands of people in Central and South America, who are going through this content. We\u2019re hoping to do the same thing in Mandarin and in Arabic.\n\nStop and think about the impact of that in marriages and families\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014around the world.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Exactly!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That is amazing.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Honestly, when Ann and I sat and watched the<em> Art of Parenting<\/em>\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Nice job, Bob; because you produced it.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It was tremendous. We honestly thought: \u201cThis is legacy changing. Every young family, and older family, needs to watch this.\u201d Here\u2019s the thing nobody thinks about, \u201cHow did it happen?\u201d Somebody made a donation; somebody said: \u201cI believe in this. I want to help others who have helped me.\u201d It\u2019s a sacrificial gift they made, and it\u2019s changing the world!\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And now, for that to spread, we need listeners to help us move things further. The good thing is\u2014if you make a donation this week, not only are you helping advance the ministry of FamilyLife, but your donation is going to be matched, dollar for dollar, up to a total of $500,000. We\u2019re hoping to take full advantage of the matching gift. We need to hear from you this week in order for your donation to be matched.\n\nIf you\u2019re able to donate this week, we\u2019d love to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d by sending you a copy of Dennis and Barbara Rainey\u2019s book, <em>The Art of Parenting<\/em>,either to keep for yourself or to pass on to someone you know, who would benefit from that book. It\u2019s easy to donate. You can do it, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. We want to say, \u201cThanks,\u201d in advance, for partnering with us and extending the reach of this ministry to people all around the world.\n\nWe hope you\u2019re able to join us, again, tomorrow. Jonathan Holmes will be here again. We\u2019re going to talk about how we can come alongside couples in difficult, stressful situations and bring them comfort and bring them hope from the Scriptures. We\u2019re going to talk about what you do if you know somebody, who is in an abusive relationship, tomorrow, among other things. I hope you can be here for that.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. 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