{"id":305240,"date":"2019-08-02T06:00:04","date_gmt":"2019-08-02T10:00:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/alienation-from-children-post-divorce\/"},"modified":"2019-08-02T06:00:04","modified_gmt":"2019-08-02T10:00:04","slug":"alienation-from-children-post-divorce","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/alienation-from-children-post-divorce\/","title":{"rendered":"Alienation From Children, Post Divorce"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>guest: Helen Wheeler, Rodney and Lisa Webb, Ron Deal | Stepcouples hope and pray they can have peaceful interactions with their former spouses, and it is possible. But for some couples, no matter how much they try, the venom and vitriol of the former spouse drowns out all reason and compromise. Rodney and Lisa Webb share their difficult blended journey, as counselor and therapist Helen Wheeler and blended family expert Ron Deal speak wisdom.<\/p>\n<p>Show Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tListen to the entire podcast with Helen Wheeler and Rodney and Lisa Webb on the FamilyLife Blended\u00ae Podcast.\u00a0 (55 min.) https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-blended-podcast\/challenging-co-parent-situations-and-parent-alienation\/<br \/>\n \tSubscribe to the FamilyLife Blended\u00ae\u00a0Podcast with Ron Deal.\u00a0https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-blended-podcast\/<br \/>\n \tLearn more and register for the Summit on Stepfamily Ministry visit. https:\/\/www.summitonstepfamilies.com\/<br \/>\n \tVisit FamilyLife Blended\u00ae online for articles, videos, resources, for blended families. https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/blended<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Rodney and Lisa Webb share their difficult blended journey, as counselor and therapist Helen Wheeler and blended family expert Ron Deal speak wisdom.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-08-02.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:29:08","filesize":"26.68M","filesize_raw":"27972063","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2860,2888,2894],"tags":[4409,4033],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[9526,9527,3300],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-305240","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-hardship-and-suffering","category-multiple-home-realities","category-stepfamily-living","tag-children-of-divorce","tag-divorce","cwp_profile-helen-wheeler","cwp_profile-rodney-and-lisa-webb","cwp_profile-ron-deal","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/305240\/alienation-from-children-post-divorce","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/305240\/alienation-from-children-post-divorce","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"7rXtbXs7Ap\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/alienation-from-children-post-divorce\/\">Alienation From Children, Post Divorce<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/alienation-from-children-post-divorce\/embed\/#?secret=7rXtbXs7Ap\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Alienation From Children, Post Divorce&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"7rXtbXs7Ap\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-08-02.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-08-02.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Sometimes there are reasons why children of divorce no longer want to have an ongoing relationship with one of their biological parents. Sometimes that estrangement is the result of one parent alienating the children from the other parent. Rodney Webb is a divorced dad who would love to have a relationship again with his kids.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rodney:<\/strong> I haven\u2019t seen them for two years and it hurts. The last time I tried, I sent their mother a message and said that I would like to explore the rekindling of a relationship with them. If they were interested in that and willing, then I thought that we could go to see a counselor and to start the process of rekindling a relationship. She replied and said that she\u2019d talked to the children about it and it wasn\u2019t something that they wanted to pursue.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Friday, August 2<sup>nd<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. What if anything can a mom or dad do if they have been cut off from their children post-divorce? We\u2019re going to have that conversation today. Stay with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. So have you guys joined the ranks of regular podcasts consumers? I mean are you listening to podcasts on a regular basis?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, every week.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong>\u00a0 I do.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I guess that\u2019s regular.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I do a workout and listen to a podcast every day. Well, not every day.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Are you using the app on your phone and just downloading podcasts you\u2019d like to listen to? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Have you added Ron Deal? I guess you\u2019re not in a blended family so it\u2019s not like it\u2019s something you\u2019d listen to regularly out of your own need. But you know as people who are involved in the lives of husbands and wives\/moms and dads we need to know how to help our friends. We need to know how to empathize with what\u2019s going on with the blended families in our church, in our community, and in our neighborhood. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRon Deal\u2019s new podcast <em>FamilyLife Blended<\/em>,\u2014we have a lot of people who have started listening to this\u2014pretty excited about it. They are benefiting if they\u2019re in a blended marriage or family, but they\u2019re also benefiting by helping people they know who are in stepfamilies, and as a pastor you know that\u2019s huge.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh I was going to say how critical it is to have wisdom, help, practical advice available, and now a podcast. Every time I talk from the pulpit about any relationship issue, I have to know a good percentage of my audience is blended or separated or second marriage. So you have to address all of those, and now we have a podcast that goes \u201cWe have help for you.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think the church has done a great job of helping the blended family, so this is such a great resource.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well and I love the fact that anytime I\u2019m talking to somebody who\u2019s in a blended marriage, or I\u2019m speaking to a large audience, I can say: Here\u2019s what will help. Get a copy of Ron Deal\u2019s book, <em>The Smart Stepfamily,<\/em> start listening to his new podcast, <em>FamilyLife Blended<\/em>. You can just offer them something that you know if they start listening to this, it\u2019s going to help them significantly. This is like getting continuing education for your stepfamily. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRon sat down recently for one of the episodes in his podcast with Helen Wheeler who is a licensed professional counselor. She works a lot with couples who are going through separation\/divorce\/stepfamily situations and together, Ron and Helen had a conversation with Rodney and Lisa Webb. Rodney and Lisa give leadership to FamilyLife Blended\u00ae in New Zealand. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve got a ministry to blended families in New Zealand. Rodney and Lisa are leading that and they\u2019re working together with Ron. They talked about the fact that for Rodney and Lisa there have been some significant challenges with their stepfamily relationship. Most significantly, they\u2019ve had to deal with ex-spouses who have created alienation and division and separation with the children\u2014the biological children\u2014causing them to not want to relate to a former spouse or to a new stepparent.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Podcast]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa:<\/strong> We\u2019ve got five children between us. We\u2019ve had four of them, four of them alienated. My youngest girl is the only one that stayed and then transverse between the two houses and having to deal with the negativity from the other house and then also her older sisters once she chose to stay and remain 50-50. It\u2019s so complex and so heartbreaking.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Rodney, tell us a little bit about your family. Paint a picture for our listener.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rodney:<\/strong> I\u2019ve got two children. I\u2019ve got a boy and a girl, 14 and 17 at the moment. Lisa\u2019s got three daughters. That\u2019s the five children between us. They\u2019re all pretty close in age.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> How long have you guys been married?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rodney: <\/strong>That\u2019s, uh\u2014you\u2019re putting me on the spot. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa:<\/strong> It\u2019s funny. He\u2019s not very good with all these dates. We\u2019ve been\u2014next year it\u2019ll be five years. We\u2019ve been married for four and a half years so far, but together for six and coming up to seven. Early next year will be seven. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Did this distancing, this alienation, if I can use that word, with your children, had that started before you guys got married? Or really has it started just since you\u2019ve been married? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa:<\/strong> Well, we were actually\u2014we weren\u2019t living together but we were together for about two years. At that time, my ex-husband was living overseas. That first two years it was really actually quite good. I mean, we had the trying to blend the kids together, but we did not have any influence of people speaking negatively to them at the other house.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut when my ex-husband came back to New Zealand and then he actually met a partner probably six months after that, that\u2019s when things just changed. His way that he was interacting with me, it changed. It was very aggressive. It was sort of like, \u201cWhat\u2019s going on here?\u201d\u00a0\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe stepmom coming onboard on the other house. Then we\u2019ve also had the challenge of that Rodney\u2019s ex-wife and her partner became socially friends with my ex-husband and his partner.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> And they started talking.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa:<\/strong> That just became\u2014I can\u2019t even put the words\u2014because the kids would be socializing. The five of them would be socializing at the other houses. Then the four adults would just be going hammer in tongue about Rodney and I. My girls, before the alienation started to fully come in, they would come back and go, \u201cBen and Courtney\u2019s mom has just made a life out of hating Rodney. That\u2019s all she talks about.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe would hear this stuff coming back. You\u2019re just sitting there going\u2014you start communicating going, \u201cWell, it\u2019s probably not a good idea to do this. Why don\u2019t we just keep this stuff up at our level?\u201d That just seemed to inflame things ridiculously.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Even more.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> So when you started, Rodney, when you started hearing those things, what did you do?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rodney:<\/strong> We were between a rock and a hard place, because I was thinking at the time, that you\u2019re probably better off just to let it ride. You\u2019re not really in a position where you can confront other parties that are saying it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> It almost makes you look bad if you do confront.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rodney:<\/strong> Yes, that\u2019s right\u2014in a position where you just add fuel to the fire.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> You know, I often say you have some influence, actually quite a bit of influence, when you\u2019re married to somebody. You have far less influence when you are no longer married to somebody. That just begins to dissipate fast. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEven though you were saying, \u201cYou know what, we\u2019ll just deal with our household and be in charge of that. We\u2019ll be good over here\u2014assume that they will do that over there.\u201d That\u2019s not what was happening. They were getting into your business. They were altering the relationship between you and your kids. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rodney:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa:<\/strong> Absolutely. That became\u2014we couldn\u2019t quite understand it. The children, my girls, would come back\u2014probably yours were a little bit more silent and that\u2019s a whole other story too. After we\u2019ve progressed through the alienation, my girls have started to come back, but Rodney\u2019s children\u2014nothing, nothing for the last two years. Like nothing, even though we\u2019ve tried now to contact and stuff like that. But they were silent about it.\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy girls were very vocal. They were very angry. They would scream into my face and you\u2019d be going, \u201cCan we just talk about this? Let\u2019s just step back and let\u2019s just talk about this.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Okay, let me just make sure I\u2019m understanding\u2014scream into your face, repeating the things that they had heard or that they were upset about what they had heard?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa:<\/strong> Yes, I think there was a bit of a journey with that. Once he actually got involved with another partner, the tone of it just changed. The way that he spoke to me or communicated to me was quite aggressive.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen my girls would come back and say, \u201cOh Mum, Mum just tell me what happened from your point of view. What happened in the divorce?\u201d This is while putting them to bed at nighttime. You\u2019re lying in bed with them, talking about stuff as you do, and it\u2019s like, \u201cOh Mum, just tell me from your point of view.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was like, \u201cGirls,\u201d or whichever one I was talking to, \u201cit\u2019s not really for you. Let\u2019s just wait until you grow up a little bit.\u201d \u201cNo, no, no, just tell me about this bit.\u201d Probably stupidly on my behalf you sort of, when you\u2019re in that sort of close situation, you\u2019re thinking, oh well, \u201cLook this is blah, blah, blah.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen they\u2019d go off and talk to Dad, and Dad would say, \u201cYour mom\u2019s a liar.\u201d Then they would come back and say, \u201cDad says you\u2019re a liar, Mum. You\u2019re a liar.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> They would begin to repeat that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa:<\/strong> Absolutely. They did, \u201cYou\u2019re a liar. You\u2019re not doing this, and you\u2019re not doing that.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cBut I\u2019m doing everything the same.\u201d Then, I also had the complication that Mark\u2019s partner, she would text them when they were with me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe were starting to have challenges with, like for example, one of them wanted to go back and do jazz-ballet. This would have been the third time that she started jazz-ballet and she quit after the first time every time. Anyway, so you had this, I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, no, let\u2019s not do that yet.\u201d \u201cI want to do this.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, blah-\u201d As you do, you\u2014the negotiation starts.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen the other house is like, \u201cWell, why won\u2019t you let her do it?\u201d Then she\u2019ll come back. Then she\u2019ll be getting texts from the stepmom saying, \u201cOh, I don\u2019t know why your mum is being so difficult about this. I would let you do it. I love you so much. We think you\u2019re amazing.\u201d I saw these texts so you\u2019re having all this undercurrent stuff happening. Then the children\u2014they\u2019re so angry. I mean I can still see their eyes being so angry with me, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you let me do it?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> And the manipulative message there is, \u201cWe love you. Your mom doesn\u2019t.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa:<\/strong> Absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> That\u2019s their anger coming through. They\u2019re reacting as if you don\u2019t love them. Somehow, they\u2019ve forgotten all the things that you\u2019ve done for them through the years and the quality of the relationship and now all of a sudden, they see you as somebody who doesn\u2019t love them, and they feel it\u2019s unfair and mistreated. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Well again, I just want to remind our listener that we\u2019re talking today about really difficult co-parenting situations including when there\u2019s alienation going on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelen, let me come back to you for a minute. I think we have to come back for a second and just go, \u201cOkay, wait a minute. What\u2019s going on here?\u201d Now I know you can\u2019t talk specifically. Let\u2019s not talk about Rodney and Lisa\u2019s situation. But when parents do this type of thing and they are manipulating their child and it\u2019s not a personality-disorder related, why would somebody do this?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Helen:<\/strong> I think there\u2019s a couple things in action. Sometimes when we\u2019ve got a stepmom, the stepmom wants to come in and be the mom. Then there\u2019s this competition that goes on\u2014who\u2019s the best mom? So there\u2019s, I think, there\u2019s probably some of that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd with women, a lot of times when they get a new man in their life, this new man wants to fix everything\u2014again I\u2019m using air quotes there. He wants to fix everything so he\u2019s going to come in and try and take over. She is going to let him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSomething I wanted to come back to with you, Lisa, and not talk to you only, because I see this a lot, is you want to defend yourself. We end up talking about the content of what the kids are saying rather than the hurt \/ the pain \/ the frustration \/ the confusion. \u201cI\u2019m sorry you feel that way. It looks like you\u2019re really confused. I can see that you\u2019re caught in the middle.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJoin them with empathy rather than trying to tell them, \u201cNo, you got the wrong story.\u201d Because in a way you\u2019re saying to them, \u201cYes, but you\u2019re lying. What you\u2019re saying is not true.\u201d It\u2019s a really difficult\u2014there\u2019s a lot of counterintuitive stuff. That\u2019s one of them where you actually don\u2019t correct them. You just join them on the pain, the confusion, and frustration that they\u2019re feeling.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa:<\/strong> I was confused. I was hurting because my children were being ripped away from me. I had that emotions of\u2014and I didn\u2019t know what to do. Like I wasn\u2019t fully aware of what was happening and what the impact of this negative talk was. I was still right back at the beginning. It was very confusing, and I had to deal with my own emotions. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy kids would be upset with me but then I would respond to that. I would be crying. I\u2019d have to run out of the room and go to my room and cry. I just didn\u2019t know how to handle it. I didn\u2019t have anything in my toolbox.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Helen:<\/strong> An empathetic way of handling that particular thing would be to say, \u201cIt must be terrible for you to feel like I don\u2019t love you. I do love you and I always will.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Of course, that assumes you can get past your own panic and then tune in to what\u2019s going on with the child. I agree that that\u2019s the ideal response but that is a very, very difficult situation in which you have to hold on to your tears, in your case Lisa, and set them aside and try to respond to the child. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to just stop for a minute and talk to the listener who may be in, Rodney, in your shoes. Lisa said her kids have reconnected, but your kids still haven\u2019t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rodney:<\/strong> No, they haven\u2019t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> As you sit and listen to us talk about this, I\u2019m wondering what\u2019s going on in your heart.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rodney:<\/strong> It\u2019s pretty hard. I love my kids. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rodney:<\/strong> One of the interesting differences between Lisa and I is that my kids, they were quiet. I didn\u2019t really know what was going on in their world in terms of where they stood with the alienation. I knew that they were hearing things about me and things about Lisa that weren\u2019t right. I didn\u2019t know the depth of it. I was an active father\u2014active in their life. I believed that they actually knew me and that my relationship with them was <em>the<\/em> most important thing and that they saw that and no matter what other people said, that they actually were secure in their knowledge of our relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen it proved not to be the case. Yes, so I haven\u2019t seen them for two years and it hurts. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Do you have any contact with them?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rodney:<\/strong> No. No, I haven\u2019t. The last time I tried, I sent their mother a message and said that I would like to\u2014it\u2019s been two years\u2014I\u2019d like to explore the rekindling of a relationship with them. If they were interested in that and willing, then I thought that we could go to see a counselor and to start the process of rekindling a relationship.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe replied and said that she\u2019d talked to the children about it and it wasn\u2019t something that they wanted to pursue.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> The waiting. That\u2019s just got to kill you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rodney:<\/strong> It does. It really does. But I mean I\u2019m\u2014I guess part of what you do as a Christian is you go back to the Word and you use the Word as your yardstick for your life and for where you are and how you should respond in certain situations. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI guess I draw some comfort from the story of the prodigal son. The father brought up two sons. I would assume he brought them up both the same. They\u2019re in the same household. As you know, one of them decided he wanted his inheritance and he went off, had nothing to do with his father or his brother anymore, went off and lived his own life and did his own thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEven though my children haven\u2019t received an inheritance and they\u2019re not adults and haven\u2019t made a willing decision in such a way as he did to go off and squander things, they are still removed from me\u2014they are removed from the relationship with me just like the prodigal son removed himself from his father\u2019s relationship.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe father didn\u2019t go chasing after him. The father remained available. He still loved him. He was ready, willing, and able to accept him for what he was and who he was when he came back, and he remained healthy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor me, I really see that that\u2019s how I have to be. I have to maintain a healthy relationship\u2014healthy relationship with Lisa \/ healthy relationship with the other children that are in my life \/ healthy relationship with God. Be the healthy person \/ healthy parent for when or if they decide to actually rekindle the relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Studio]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, we\u2019ve been listening to an episode of Ron Deal\u2019s podcast, <em>FamilyLife Blended<\/em>. I want to encourage our listeners if you\u2019d like to hear the entire conversation and hear Ron and Helen and Rodney and Lisa talk about the huge breakthrough that happened in Lisa\u2019s relationship with her daughter, and hear Helen talk about never giving up on your relationship with your kids even if there is alienation, go to FamilyLifeToday.com and get information about the <em>FamilyLife Blended<\/em> podcast. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere are a number of episodes available you can listen to \/ you can subscribe to it, along with other FamilyLife podcasts. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information on the FamilyLife Podcast Network. I just have to tell you guys that kiwi accent I could listen to that all day long. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Me too.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I was thinking the same thing. What a beautiful, deep voice.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But what a challenge.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh man.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What a challenge.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What a challenge to be alienated from your kids because an ex-spouse is poisoning the well, or saying things that aren\u2019t true, or just trying to drive a wedge between you and them and trying to know how do I deal with this in a way that honors God? How do I deal with it in a way that heals the hurt in my own heart that I\u2019m experiencing? This is a real difficult path for folks to be on.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think it would be one of the most difficult paths for a parent to be alienated from their children and it would be really hard not to become bitter and hopeless. So I love that as we put our eyes on Jesus that can help but also have some practical tools of what that looks like.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, I was thinking the chaos \/ the anger \/ the resentment \/ the hardened heart that happens and yet Rodney takes us to one of the most beautiful stories in scripture and is pointing toward the father of a prodigal son. You know that father in that story in Luke 15 feels the same thing as his son rebels and walks away. And yet, he gives us a picture of the Father\u2019s heart which is\u2014Rodney\u2019s point is like \u201cOkay, what would it look like for me who\u2019s been hurt to run to the mailbox \/ run down the road after even my former spouse you know that\u2019s the one stopping what I want.\u201d That\u2019s impossible apart from the heart of the Father being our heart. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo it\u2019s like every parent out there \/ every blended family is like \u201cMan, that\u2019s where you go. You\u2019ve got to fall on your face and ask God to give you His heart.\u201d Otherwise you\u2019ll just live in bitterness and that\u2019s no way to live, and your kids will be the result of that and feel that. And yet, if you get the Father\u2019s heart, it\u2019s possible: God\u2019s heart can transform our heart\u2014to soften us to a place where God can bring something beautiful out of this mess.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s the grace of God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And you guys know in October, Ron Deal and the FamilyLife Blended team are putting together an event. <em>The Summit on Stepfamily Ministry<\/em> is going to be held in Chesapeake, Virginia October 24<sup>th<\/sup> and 25<sup>th<\/sup>. The theme this year is \u201cStepfamilies in Crisis.\u201d This is an event designed to help people in ministry, whether it\u2019s in a local church or in para church ministry, those who are helping to work with blended families to help know how to navigate families that are experiencing this kind of crisis. You can find out more about the <em>2019 Summit on Stepfamily Ministry<\/em>. Again, the dates October 24<sup>th<\/sup> and 25<sup>th<\/sup> in Chesapeake, Virginia. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information. There is special pricing available now. So again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com and the information is available there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know as I said, our goal here at FamilyLife is to help strengthen marriages and families to effectively develop godly marriages and families. Whatever your family situation is today, we want it to be a marriage and family that honors and glorifies God, and to that end our team has put together a fitness guide for marriages this summer. There\u2019s no heavy lifting involved, no weights, and no jogging. Although there\u2019s strength training and cardio. I mean we\u2019re talking about getting your heart racing a little faster and about strengthening your marriage relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis \u201cStronger Forever\u201d marriage fitness guide is available for a free download and we\u2019ve had a ton of these downloaded already. I think the reason is because when you download, you become automatically eligible\u2014You\u2019re automatically entered in a contest and one couple is going to win a week on the <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em> marriage cruise in February of 2020. There\u2019s no purchase necessary to enter. The contest began back on July 1, 2019; it ends on August 30, 2019. Official rules can be found at FamilyLife.com\/StrongerForever. So strengthen your marriage this summer and maybe, we\u2019ll see you on the <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em> marriage cruise in 2020.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together in your local church this weekend. I hope you can join us on Monday when we\u2019re going to talk about how we can help young men grow into greatness. Dr. Gary Chapman will be here along with our friend and FamilyLife <em>Weekend to Remember <\/em>speaker Clarence Shuler. They\u2019ve written a book that\u2019s designed to engage teenage young men around these subjects, and we\u2019ll talk about that Monday. Hope you can join us for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:29:08"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["26.68M"],"filesize_raw":["27972063"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-305240.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-305240.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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and Lisa Webb share their difficult blended journey, as counselor and therapist Helen Wheeler and blended family expert Ron Deal speak wisdom.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-08-02.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Sometimes there are reasons why children of divorce no longer want to have an ongoing relationship with one of their biological parents. Sometimes that estrangement is the result of one parent alienating the children from the other parent. Rodney Webb is a divorced dad who would love to have a relationship again with his kids.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rodney:<\/strong> I haven\u2019t seen them for two years and it hurts. The last time I tried, I sent their mother a message and said that I would like to explore the rekindling of a relationship with them. If they were interested in that and willing, then I thought that we could go to see a counselor and to start the process of rekindling a relationship. She replied and said that she\u2019d talked to the children about it and it wasn\u2019t something that they wanted to pursue.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Friday, August 2<sup>nd<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. What if anything can a mom or dad do if they have been cut off from their children post-divorce? We\u2019re going to have that conversation today. Stay with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. So have you guys joined the ranks of regular podcasts consumers? I mean are you listening to podcasts on a regular basis?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, every week.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong>\u00a0 I do.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I guess that\u2019s regular.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I do a workout and listen to a podcast every day. Well, not every day.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Are you using the app on your phone and just downloading podcasts you\u2019d like to listen to? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Have you added Ron Deal? I guess you\u2019re not in a blended family so it\u2019s not like it\u2019s something you\u2019d listen to regularly out of your own need. But you know as people who are involved in the lives of husbands and wives\/moms and dads we need to know how to help our friends. We need to know how to empathize with what\u2019s going on with the blended families in our church, in our community, and in our neighborhood. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRon Deal\u2019s new podcast <em>FamilyLife Blended<\/em>,\u2014we have a lot of people who have started listening to this\u2014pretty excited about it. They are benefiting if they\u2019re in a blended marriage or family, but they\u2019re also benefiting by helping people they know who are in stepfamilies, and as a pastor you know that\u2019s huge.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh I was going to say how critical it is to have wisdom, help, practical advice available, and now a podcast. Every time I talk from the pulpit about any relationship issue, I have to know a good percentage of my audience is blended or separated or second marriage. So you have to address all of those, and now we have a podcast that goes \u201cWe have help for you.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think the church has done a great job of helping the blended family, so this is such a great resource.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well and I love the fact that anytime I\u2019m talking to somebody who\u2019s in a blended marriage, or I\u2019m speaking to a large audience, I can say: Here\u2019s what will help. Get a copy of Ron Deal\u2019s book, <em>The Smart Stepfamily,<\/em> start listening to his new podcast, <em>FamilyLife Blended<\/em>. You can just offer them something that you know if they start listening to this, it\u2019s going to help them significantly. This is like getting continuing education for your stepfamily. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRon sat down recently for one of the episodes in his podcast with Helen Wheeler who is a licensed professional counselor. She works a lot with couples who are going through separation\/divorce\/stepfamily situations and together, Ron and Helen had a conversation with Rodney and Lisa Webb. Rodney and Lisa give leadership to FamilyLife Blended\u00ae in New Zealand. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve got a ministry to blended families in New Zealand. Rodney and Lisa are leading that and they\u2019re working together with Ron. They talked about the fact that for Rodney and Lisa there have been some significant challenges with their stepfamily relationship. Most significantly, they\u2019ve had to deal with ex-spouses who have created alienation and division and separation with the children\u2014the biological children\u2014causing them to not want to relate to a former spouse or to a new stepparent.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Podcast]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa:<\/strong> We\u2019ve got five children between us. We\u2019ve had four of them, four of them alienated. My youngest girl is the only one that stayed and then transverse between the two houses and having to deal with the negativity from the other house and then also her older sisters once she chose to stay and remain 50-50. It\u2019s so complex and so heartbreaking.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Rodney, tell us a little bit about your family. Paint a picture for our listener.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rodney:<\/strong> I\u2019ve got two children. I\u2019ve got a boy and a girl, 14 and 17 at the moment. Lisa\u2019s got three daughters. That\u2019s the five children between us. They\u2019re all pretty close in age.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> How long have you guys been married?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rodney: <\/strong>That\u2019s, uh\u2014you\u2019re putting me on the spot. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa:<\/strong> It\u2019s funny. He\u2019s not very good with all these dates. We\u2019ve been\u2014next year it\u2019ll be five years. We\u2019ve been married for four and a half years so far, but together for six and coming up to seven. Early next year will be seven. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Did this distancing, this alienation, if I can use that word, with your children, had that started before you guys got married? Or really has it started just since you\u2019ve been married? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa:<\/strong> Well, we were actually\u2014we weren\u2019t living together but we were together for about two years. At that time, my ex-husband was living overseas. That first two years it was really actually quite good. I mean, we had the trying to blend the kids together, but we did not have any influence of people speaking negatively to them at the other house.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut when my ex-husband came back to New Zealand and then he actually met a partner probably six months after that, that\u2019s when things just changed. His way that he was interacting with me, it changed. It was very aggressive. It was sort of like, \u201cWhat\u2019s going on here?\u201d\u00a0\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe stepmom coming onboard on the other house. Then we\u2019ve also had the challenge of that Rodney\u2019s ex-wife and her partner became socially friends with my ex-husband and his partner.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> And they started talking.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa:<\/strong> That just became\u2014I can\u2019t even put the words\u2014because the kids would be socializing. The five of them would be socializing at the other houses. Then the four adults would just be going hammer in tongue about Rodney and I. My girls, before the alienation started to fully come in, they would come back and go, \u201cBen and Courtney\u2019s mom has just made a life out of hating Rodney. That\u2019s all she talks about.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe would hear this stuff coming back. You\u2019re just sitting there going\u2014you start communicating going, \u201cWell, it\u2019s probably not a good idea to do this. Why don\u2019t we just keep this stuff up at our level?\u201d That just seemed to inflame things ridiculously.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Even more.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> So when you started, Rodney, when you started hearing those things, what did you do?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rodney:<\/strong> We were between a rock and a hard place, because I was thinking at the time, that you\u2019re probably better off just to let it ride. You\u2019re not really in a position where you can confront other parties that are saying it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> It almost makes you look bad if you do confront.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rodney:<\/strong> Yes, that\u2019s right\u2014in a position where you just add fuel to the fire.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> You know, I often say you have some influence, actually quite a bit of influence, when you\u2019re married to somebody. You have far less influence when you are no longer married to somebody. That just begins to dissipate fast. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEven though you were saying, \u201cYou know what, we\u2019ll just deal with our household and be in charge of that. We\u2019ll be good over here\u2014assume that they will do that over there.\u201d That\u2019s not what was happening. They were getting into your business. They were altering the relationship between you and your kids. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rodney:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa:<\/strong> Absolutely. That became\u2014we couldn\u2019t quite understand it. The children, my girls, would come back\u2014probably yours were a little bit more silent and that\u2019s a whole other story too. After we\u2019ve progressed through the alienation, my girls have started to come back, but Rodney\u2019s children\u2014nothing, nothing for the last two years. Like nothing, even though we\u2019ve tried now to contact and stuff like that. But they were silent about it.\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy girls were very vocal. They were very angry. They would scream into my face and you\u2019d be going, \u201cCan we just talk about this? Let\u2019s just step back and let\u2019s just talk about this.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Okay, let me just make sure I\u2019m understanding\u2014scream into your face, repeating the things that they had heard or that they were upset about what they had heard?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa:<\/strong> Yes, I think there was a bit of a journey with that. Once he actually got involved with another partner, the tone of it just changed. The way that he spoke to me or communicated to me was quite aggressive.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen my girls would come back and say, \u201cOh Mum, Mum just tell me what happened from your point of view. What happened in the divorce?\u201d This is while putting them to bed at nighttime. You\u2019re lying in bed with them, talking about stuff as you do, and it\u2019s like, \u201cOh Mum, just tell me from your point of view.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was like, \u201cGirls,\u201d or whichever one I was talking to, \u201cit\u2019s not really for you. Let\u2019s just wait until you grow up a little bit.\u201d \u201cNo, no, no, just tell me about this bit.\u201d Probably stupidly on my behalf you sort of, when you\u2019re in that sort of close situation, you\u2019re thinking, oh well, \u201cLook this is blah, blah, blah.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen they\u2019d go off and talk to Dad, and Dad would say, \u201cYour mom\u2019s a liar.\u201d Then they would come back and say, \u201cDad says you\u2019re a liar, Mum. You\u2019re a liar.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> They would begin to repeat that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa:<\/strong> Absolutely. They did, \u201cYou\u2019re a liar. You\u2019re not doing this, and you\u2019re not doing that.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cBut I\u2019m doing everything the same.\u201d Then, I also had the complication that Mark\u2019s partner, she would text them when they were with me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe were starting to have challenges with, like for example, one of them wanted to go back and do jazz-ballet. This would have been the third time that she started jazz-ballet and she quit after the first time every time. Anyway, so you had this, I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, no, let\u2019s not do that yet.\u201d \u201cI want to do this.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, blah-\u201d As you do, you\u2014the negotiation starts.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen the other house is like, \u201cWell, why won\u2019t you let her do it?\u201d Then she\u2019ll come back. Then she\u2019ll be getting texts from the stepmom saying, \u201cOh, I don\u2019t know why your mum is being so difficult about this. I would let you do it. I love you so much. We think you\u2019re amazing.\u201d I saw these texts so you\u2019re having all this undercurrent stuff happening. Then the children\u2014they\u2019re so angry. I mean I can still see their eyes being so angry with me, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you let me do it?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> And the manipulative message there is, \u201cWe love you. Your mom doesn\u2019t.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa:<\/strong> Absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> That\u2019s their anger coming through. They\u2019re reacting as if you don\u2019t love them. Somehow, they\u2019ve forgotten all the things that you\u2019ve done for them through the years and the quality of the relationship and now all of a sudden, they see you as somebody who doesn\u2019t love them, and they feel it\u2019s unfair and mistreated. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Well again, I just want to remind our listener that we\u2019re talking today about really difficult co-parenting situations including when there\u2019s alienation going on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelen, let me come back to you for a minute. I think we have to come back for a second and just go, \u201cOkay, wait a minute. What\u2019s going on here?\u201d Now I know you can\u2019t talk specifically. Let\u2019s not talk about Rodney and Lisa\u2019s situation. But when parents do this type of thing and they are manipulating their child and it\u2019s not a personality-disorder related, why would somebody do this?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Helen:<\/strong> I think there\u2019s a couple things in action. Sometimes when we\u2019ve got a stepmom, the stepmom wants to come in and be the mom. Then there\u2019s this competition that goes on\u2014who\u2019s the best mom? So there\u2019s, I think, there\u2019s probably some of that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd with women, a lot of times when they get a new man in their life, this new man wants to fix everything\u2014again I\u2019m using air quotes there. He wants to fix everything so he\u2019s going to come in and try and take over. She is going to let him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSomething I wanted to come back to with you, Lisa, and not talk to you only, because I see this a lot, is you want to defend yourself. We end up talking about the content of what the kids are saying rather than the hurt \/ the pain \/ the frustration \/ the confusion. \u201cI\u2019m sorry you feel that way. It looks like you\u2019re really confused. I can see that you\u2019re caught in the middle.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJoin them with empathy rather than trying to tell them, \u201cNo, you got the wrong story.\u201d Because in a way you\u2019re saying to them, \u201cYes, but you\u2019re lying. What you\u2019re saying is not true.\u201d It\u2019s a really difficult\u2014there\u2019s a lot of counterintuitive stuff. That\u2019s one of them where you actually don\u2019t correct them. You just join them on the pain, the confusion, and frustration that they\u2019re feeling.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa:<\/strong> I was confused. I was hurting because my children were being ripped away from me. I had that emotions of\u2014and I didn\u2019t know what to do. Like I wasn\u2019t fully aware of what was happening and what the impact of this negative talk was. I was still right back at the beginning. It was very confusing, and I had to deal with my own emotions. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy kids would be upset with me but then I would respond to that. I would be crying. I\u2019d have to run out of the room and go to my room and cry. I just didn\u2019t know how to handle it. I didn\u2019t have anything in my toolbox.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Helen:<\/strong> An empathetic way of handling that particular thing would be to say, \u201cIt must be terrible for you to feel like I don\u2019t love you. I do love you and I always will.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Of course, that assumes you can get past your own panic and then tune in to what\u2019s going on with the child. I agree that that\u2019s the ideal response but that is a very, very difficult situation in which you have to hold on to your tears, in your case Lisa, and set them aside and try to respond to the child. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to just stop for a minute and talk to the listener who may be in, Rodney, in your shoes. Lisa said her kids have reconnected, but your kids still haven\u2019t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rodney:<\/strong> No, they haven\u2019t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> As you sit and listen to us talk about this, I\u2019m wondering what\u2019s going on in your heart.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rodney:<\/strong> It\u2019s pretty hard. I love my kids. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rodney:<\/strong> One of the interesting differences between Lisa and I is that my kids, they were quiet. I didn\u2019t really know what was going on in their world in terms of where they stood with the alienation. I knew that they were hearing things about me and things about Lisa that weren\u2019t right. I didn\u2019t know the depth of it. I was an active father\u2014active in their life. I believed that they actually knew me and that my relationship with them was <em>the<\/em> most important thing and that they saw that and no matter what other people said, that they actually were secure in their knowledge of our relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen it proved not to be the case. Yes, so I haven\u2019t seen them for two years and it hurts. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Do you have any contact with them?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rodney:<\/strong> No. No, I haven\u2019t. The last time I tried, I sent their mother a message and said that I would like to\u2014it\u2019s been two years\u2014I\u2019d like to explore the rekindling of a relationship with them. If they were interested in that and willing, then I thought that we could go to see a counselor and to start the process of rekindling a relationship.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe replied and said that she\u2019d talked to the children about it and it wasn\u2019t something that they wanted to pursue.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> The waiting. That\u2019s just got to kill you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rodney:<\/strong> It does. It really does. But I mean I\u2019m\u2014I guess part of what you do as a Christian is you go back to the Word and you use the Word as your yardstick for your life and for where you are and how you should respond in certain situations. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI guess I draw some comfort from the story of the prodigal son. The father brought up two sons. I would assume he brought them up both the same. They\u2019re in the same household. As you know, one of them decided he wanted his inheritance and he went off, had nothing to do with his father or his brother anymore, went off and lived his own life and did his own thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEven though my children haven\u2019t received an inheritance and they\u2019re not adults and haven\u2019t made a willing decision in such a way as he did to go off and squander things, they are still removed from me\u2014they are removed from the relationship with me just like the prodigal son removed himself from his father\u2019s relationship.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe father didn\u2019t go chasing after him. The father remained available. He still loved him. He was ready, willing, and able to accept him for what he was and who he was when he came back, and he remained healthy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor me, I really see that that\u2019s how I have to be. I have to maintain a healthy relationship\u2014healthy relationship with Lisa \/ healthy relationship with the other children that are in my life \/ healthy relationship with God. Be the healthy person \/ healthy parent for when or if they decide to actually rekindle the relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Studio]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, we\u2019ve been listening to an episode of Ron Deal\u2019s podcast, <em>FamilyLife Blended<\/em>. I want to encourage our listeners if you\u2019d like to hear the entire conversation and hear Ron and Helen and Rodney and Lisa talk about the huge breakthrough that happened in Lisa\u2019s relationship with her daughter, and hear Helen talk about never giving up on your relationship with your kids even if there is alienation, go to FamilyLifeToday.com and get information about the <em>FamilyLife Blended<\/em> podcast. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere are a number of episodes available you can listen to \/ you can subscribe to it, along with other FamilyLife podcasts. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information on the FamilyLife Podcast Network. I just have to tell you guys that kiwi accent I could listen to that all day long. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Me too.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I was thinking the same thing. What a beautiful, deep voice.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But what a challenge.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh man.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What a challenge.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What a challenge to be alienated from your kids because an ex-spouse is poisoning the well, or saying things that aren\u2019t true, or just trying to drive a wedge between you and them and trying to know how do I deal with this in a way that honors God? How do I deal with it in a way that heals the hurt in my own heart that I\u2019m experiencing? This is a real difficult path for folks to be on.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think it would be one of the most difficult paths for a parent to be alienated from their children and it would be really hard not to become bitter and hopeless. So I love that as we put our eyes on Jesus that can help but also have some practical tools of what that looks like.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes, I was thinking the chaos \/ the anger \/ the resentment \/ the hardened heart that happens and yet Rodney takes us to one of the most beautiful stories in scripture and is pointing toward the father of a prodigal son. You know that father in that story in Luke 15 feels the same thing as his son rebels and walks away. And yet, he gives us a picture of the Father\u2019s heart which is\u2014Rodney\u2019s point is like \u201cOkay, what would it look like for me who\u2019s been hurt to run to the mailbox \/ run down the road after even my former spouse you know that\u2019s the one stopping what I want.\u201d That\u2019s impossible apart from the heart of the Father being our heart. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo it\u2019s like every parent out there \/ every blended family is like \u201cMan, that\u2019s where you go. You\u2019ve got to fall on your face and ask God to give you His heart.\u201d Otherwise you\u2019ll just live in bitterness and that\u2019s no way to live, and your kids will be the result of that and feel that. And yet, if you get the Father\u2019s heart, it\u2019s possible: God\u2019s heart can transform our heart\u2014to soften us to a place where God can bring something beautiful out of this mess.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s the grace of God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And you guys know in October, Ron Deal and the FamilyLife Blended team are putting together an event. <em>The Summit on Stepfamily Ministry<\/em> is going to be held in Chesapeake, Virginia October 24<sup>th<\/sup> and 25<sup>th<\/sup>. The theme this year is \u201cStepfamilies in Crisis.\u201d This is an event designed to help people in ministry, whether it\u2019s in a local church or in para church ministry, those who are helping to work with blended families to help know how to navigate families that are experiencing this kind of crisis. You can find out more about the <em>2019 Summit on Stepfamily Ministry<\/em>. Again, the dates October 24<sup>th<\/sup> and 25<sup>th<\/sup> in Chesapeake, Virginia. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information. There is special pricing available now. So again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com and the information is available there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know as I said, our goal here at FamilyLife is to help strengthen marriages and families to effectively develop godly marriages and families. Whatever your family situation is today, we want it to be a marriage and family that honors and glorifies God, and to that end our team has put together a fitness guide for marriages this summer. There\u2019s no heavy lifting involved, no weights, and no jogging. Although there\u2019s strength training and cardio. I mean we\u2019re talking about getting your heart racing a little faster and about strengthening your marriage relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis \u201cStronger Forever\u201d marriage fitness guide is available for a free download and we\u2019ve had a ton of these downloaded already. I think the reason is because when you download, you become automatically eligible\u2014You\u2019re automatically entered in a contest and one couple is going to win a week on the <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em> marriage cruise in February of 2020. There\u2019s no purchase necessary to enter. The contest began back on July 1, 2019; it ends on August 30, 2019. Official rules can be found at FamilyLife.com\/StrongerForever. So strengthen your marriage this summer and maybe, we\u2019ll see you on the <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em> marriage cruise in 2020.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together in your local church this weekend. I hope you can join us on Monday when we\u2019re going to talk about how we can help young men grow into greatness. Dr. Gary Chapman will be here along with our friend and FamilyLife <em>Weekend to Remember <\/em>speaker Clarence Shuler. They\u2019ve written a book that\u2019s designed to engage teenage young men around these subjects, and we\u2019ll talk about that Monday. Hope you can join us for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. 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