{"id":305143,"date":"2019-07-09T06:00:05","date_gmt":"2019-07-09T10:00:05","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/facing-the-enemy\/"},"modified":"2019-07-09T06:00:05","modified_gmt":"2019-07-09T10:00:05","slug":"facing-the-enemy","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/facing-the-enemy\/","title":{"rendered":"Facing the Enemy"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>guest: Aaron and Jennifer Smith | Series: Marriage After God | Authors Aaron and Jennifer Smith tell how they found themselves at odds with one another when intimacy issues made it impossible to consummate their marriage. Aaron turned to porn in frustration, and Jennifer battled her own grief and anger. Hear how Aaron found freedom from pornography and how Jennifer learned to be his ally in the effort.<\/p>\n<p>Show Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tListen to Jennifer Smith&#8217;s &#8220;Unveiled Wife&#8221;\u00a0 interview on FamilyLife Today\u00ae\u00a0from 2016. https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/series\/the-unveiled-wife\/<br \/>\n \tVisit Jennifer Smith&#8217;s website UnveiledWife.com. https:\/\/unveiledwife.com<br \/>\n \tVisit Aaron Smith&#8217;s website HusbandRevolution.com. https:\/\/husbandrevolution.com\/<br \/>\n \tListen to their podcast called &#8220;Marriage After God.&#8221; https:\/\/unveiledwife.com\/marriage-god-podcast\/<br \/>\n \tDownload the Stronger Forever ebook and enter for a chance to go on the FamilyLife&#8217;s Love Like You Mean It\u00ae cruise.\u00a0 https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/stronger<br \/>\n \tLearn more about becoming a Legacy Partner, a monthly supporter of FamilyLife.\u00a0https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/legacy<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Aaron and Jennifer Smith tell how they found themselves at odds with one another when intimacy issues made it impossible to consummate their marriage. Hear how Aaron found freedom from pornography and how Jennifer learned to be his ally in the effort.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-07-09.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:25:28","filesize":"23.32M","filesize_raw":"24447772","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2901,2844,2088,2831],"tags":[6670],"podcast_series":[8287],"cwp_profile":[9544],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-305143","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-husbands","category-pornography","category-romance-and-sex","category-wives","tag-marriage-after-god","podcast_series-marriage-after-god","cwp_profile-aaron-and-jennifer-smith","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/305143\/facing-the-enemy","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/305143\/facing-the-enemy","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"v4XV2xOyTt\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/facing-the-enemy\/\">Facing the Enemy<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/facing-the-enemy\/embed\/#?secret=v4XV2xOyTt\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Facing the Enemy&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"v4XV2xOyTt\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-07-09.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-07-09.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Before he was married, and early in his marriage, Aaron Smith battled with pornography. The turning point came when a friend of his finally confronted him.\n\n<strong>Aaron: <\/strong><a id=\"_Hlk12102840\"><\/a>I\u2019m sitting in the car with a mentor of ours. He askes me, \u201cHey, you walking in purity?\u201d I\u2018m like, \u201cUhhhh, no\u2014like last week\u2014you know, it\u2019s been getting less and less,\u201d\u2014kind of going through the motions with my addiction with pornography; right? He\u2019s like, \u201cYou know why you keep doing this; right?\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWhy?\u201d He\u2019s like, \u201cBecause you love your sin.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, July 9<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. The things we love more than we love God in life or in marriage\u2014even the <em>good<\/em> things\u2014those are the things that will, ultimately, destroy our lives and marriages. We\u2019ll hear more about that today from Aaron and Jennifer Smith. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. It occurs to me that, when a couple gets married, just the fact they get married\u2014we are often unaware of this\u2014but what we\u2019ve done, when we get married, is we\u2019ve entered into something that God says, \u201cThis is a part of My plan for you.\u201d As soon as He says that, the enemy says: \u201cOkay; well, then, I\u2019m going to try to destroy this. If God is for this, then I\u2019m against it.\u201d\n\nThen, if a couple in that marriage says, \u201cWe\u2019re going to be wholly committed to Christ and really try to serve Him with our marriage,\u201d the enemy is going to go, \u201cOkay; we\u2019re going to turn up the attack here.\u201d You guys have experienced this in your marriage; right?\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes! It makes me think, Bob\u2014you know, as a pastor, I do weddings. Can you imagine me saying that at your wedding day?\u2014\u201cHey, by the way, let me tell you what you\u2019re entering into today. You\u2019re into a <em>war<\/em>! [Laughter] And you\u2019re at the center of this war.\u201d I mean\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And yet it\u2019s true!\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014it is true.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You\u2019d like to hand flak jackets out if you could. [Laughter] \u201cDon\u2019t wear a wedding dress; wear a flak jacket to the wedding, because you\u2019re stepping into the crosshairs.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I wish I would\u2019ve heard that, because there is an intensity and a mission in marriage that people don\u2019t always talk about before you\u2019re married. If we knew: \u201cHey, you\u2019re getting ready to enter a battle,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s scary; but there\u2019s also a part: \u201cso put on your armor and get ready, because the enemy will do anything to thwart your marriage.\u201d\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I think the scary thing is\u2014you can sit in church and be a follower of Christ and know better than to buy the culture\u2019s ideal of marriage, but we do the same thing. We watch shows, and it\u2019s all about happiness and finding <em>the one<\/em>. We know better\u2014we know God\u2019s got a bigger plan\u2014then, you get married and you find yourself wanting the same thing. You have to remind yourself.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes!\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You\u2019ve been discipled by the culture\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Right!\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014instead of being discipled by the Bible.\n\nWe\u2019ve got a couple joining us this week\u2014Aaron and Jennifer Smith\u2014who know a little bit about the slings and arrows that come with marriage. Jennifer and Aaron, welcome back.\n\n<strong>Jennifer: <\/strong>Thanks.\n\n<strong>Aaron: <\/strong>Thank you for having us.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Jennifer and Aaron have written a book called, <em>Marriage After God: Chasing Boldly After God\u2019s Purpose for Your Life Together. <\/em>Jennifer has been with us before\u2014wrote a book called <em>The Unveiled Wife<\/em>\u2014and told about some of the hard, challenging early years of marriage. Again, if you\u2019d like to listen to that in some detail, including the unpacking of the story of finding sexual intimacy to be painful during the first four years of [her] marriage, you can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and listen to that podcast.\n\nBut this issue of intimacy was not the only spiritual attack that you found facing you after you said, \u201cI do.\u201d You\u2019re early years included more than just that as a challenge; right?\n\n<strong>Aaron: <\/strong>I mean, there\u2019s just the naturalthings: dealing with money, sleeping in the same bed with someone, learning to not be selfish anymore. We think we\u2019re not selfish until we get married\u2014like, \u201cWow; my wife is the most selfish person I\u2019ve ever met. [Laughter] And I\u2019m great,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s how we <em>think<\/em>. It\u2019s sanctifying; it\u2019s a process of dying to self. It\u2019s one of the greatest ways God planned to sanctify us\u2014is in our oneness\/the unifying nature of our marriage as we, day after day, year after year, walk with each other\/learn each other\u2019s ways.\n\nTo be honest\u2014often, we try to change the other person to be more like ourselves; and Christ wants us to both change to be more like Him. It\u2019s learning to say, \u201cNo,\u201d to ourselves and \u201cYes,\u201d to God and allow Him to change us. Everything feels like an attack when you\u2019re only looking inward.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right; in those first years, when sexual intimacy was painful and was not a part of your marriage\u2014Aaron, we talked about this earlier\u2014one of the ways you dealt with that was by looking at pornography, which had been a part of your past before you got married. Now, you kind of felt: \u201cWell, maybe this is acceptable; because I don\u2019t have marital intimacy. Maybe, this is my alternative.\u201d Did you feel justified, or did you feel guilty? How did you feel?\n\n<strong>Aaron: <\/strong>Both.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Okay.\n\n<strong>Aaron: <\/strong>When you have the Holy Spirit in you, the only way to not feel the guilt of our sin is to quench the Spirit and push Him away\u2014eventually, we see our conscience\u2014and that is the result of walking in perpetual, unrepentant sin. I have the Holy Spirit in me, and I always felt the shame and guilt.\n\nBut you know what? In my flesh, because I was walking in the flesh and not the Spirit, I was justifying it, saying: \u201cWhat else am I going to do? I can\u2019t get it from my wife,\u201d and \u201cI\u2019m not going to cheat on her. I\u2019m not going to\u2026\u201d\u2014that\u2019s what I <em>thought<\/em>. It\u2019s twisted when we walk in unrepentant sin\/when we walk in things that sear our conscience over time. It starts small. You see people that go, \u201cHow could they have done that?\u201d Well, it didn\u2019t start that way; it starts small. You take steps away from God; and you tell yourself, \u201cThis is okay,\u201d\u2014you find other reasons to justify. I used my wife to justify.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Jennifer, were you aware of any of this?\n\n<strong>Jennifer: <\/strong>I was. He was actually really transparent with me about his struggle, even before marriage. It was just an uncomfortable place for me to understand what he was dealing with; so as much as I could, I avoided that conversation or made it small.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014because?\n\n<strong>Jennifer: <\/strong>It was just uncomfortable for me to think about what he was doing. It made me insecure\u2014as a woman and as his significant other\u2014to think that I wasn\u2019t good enough. There were a lot of reasons why I wanted to avoid it or pretend it didn\u2019t exist.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Were you\u2014like did you walk in on him? Did you\u2014\n\n<strong>Jennifer: <\/strong>No; it was always after the fact that he came to me and confessed his sin. I believe he, truly, had a heart to not want that anymore; but it was definitely a struggle that had a stronghold in his life.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And as a wife\u2014who is aware of that fact that intercourse if painful\/this can\u2019t be a part of your marriage\u2014there had to a part of you, going: \u201cWell, I feel sorry that you\u2019re in the situation you\u2019re in. Maybe I just need to look the other way and say, \u2018If that\u2019s what you need, go for it.\u2019\u201d\n\n<strong>Jennifer: <\/strong>There was a part of me that gave him a pass on it; but then, there were other times that I was so overwhelmed with emotions that I would cry or be angry when he told me. I didn\u2019t have control over my emotions like I should have in those times\u2014not every time. I think, as we continued on in our marriage, we both matured in this area\u2014of him not doing it anymore and me learning how to have self-control in my emotions, as a wife.\n\n<strong>Aaron: <\/strong>And, also, you\u2019re perspective on what it was you were doing in coming to me. We talk about, in the book, the things that [harm] our effectiveness as believers. The reason we phrase it that way is because there is an effectiveness that we can have in this world\u2014the Bible calls us salt\/calls us light. Even in that parable of the salt, it says, \u201cWhat good is salt if it looses it\u2019s saltiness?\u201d\n\n<strong>Jennifer:<\/strong> Sometimes, I think the enemy <em>knows<\/em> our effectiveness for God\u2019s kingdom more than we even know it.\n\n<strong>Aaron: <\/strong>Oh yes!In those seasons you, Jennifer\u2014being hurt, seeing it as a personal attack on you, which\u2014she is my wife, so it was. But me, seeing my sin as something I\u2019m justified in. There was no way, in that season, we could be effective for God\u2014where the sin, and the lies, and the inward\/the selfishness\u2014kept us from being able to walk in the things that God prepared for us to do before the foundation of the earth\u2014the good works that He has prepared for us to do\u2014we couldn\u2019t; we were just in our place.\n\nThat\u2019s one of the reasons why we wrote this book. The main reason is we want to invite other married couples to recognize what God\u2019s purpose is for them. It\u2019s not just to have a happy healthy marriage\u2014that\u2019s a product after choosing after God; it\u2019s also fruit after choosing after God; and it\u2019s also the thing that validates our message: \u201cLook at our life\u2014it\u2019s not perfect\u2014but we love God. We\u2019re chasing after Him with everything, and this is what we look like.\u201d\n\n<strong>Jennifer: <\/strong>We can express joy, even amidst hardships, if those are there.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> How did you get out of that dark sort of cycle you were in, where you\u2014you\u2019re trying to find your sexual needs met in a sinful way. You guys are talking about it; but at some point, you had to\u2014you start winning.\n\n<strong>Jennifer:<\/strong> One of the first things that comes to my mind is\u2014earlier, you shared how God humbled you; and shortly thereafter that situation, I remember God also working in my heart, as his wife, to not just explode with emotion when he confessed his sin to me but to really understand it myself: \u201cWhat is he going through?\u201d and \u201cWhat\u2019s my role in this?\u201d\n\nI remember we had just had our son, Elliot\u2014he was just a couple months old. I was rocking him in the corner of our bedroom, and Aaron had confessed to me that he had \u201cmessed up.\u201d\n\n<strong>Aaron: <\/strong>That was our term.\n\n<strong>Jennifer: <\/strong>I just went straight to Scripture. I reminded him what Jesus said about lust being adultery. I said to him: \u201cYou are committing adultery, and you are leaving a legacy for our children of this. What do you want Elliot, your son, to have an example of when he grows up?\u201d This is our first experience of being parents and understanding that we are leaving a legacy. I think that was an impactful, pivotal moment in our marriage.\n\n<strong>Aaron: <\/strong>It was the first time you ever addressed me more as a brother in Christ instead of just a husband, who has hurt you.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Did that make a difference?\n\n<strong>Aaron: <\/strong>What made the difference was that she told me the truth about what I was doing, because the truth is\u2014is that I was committing adultery. I wanted to go back to me looking for my sexual needs to be met. That\u2019s a lie, also, that I believed\u2014is that I had these sexual need that had to be met: \u201cI\u2019m going to find them elsewhere,\u201d\u2014actually, I have a sexuality that was designed for marriage. When we have all of these perspectives\u2014that are fleshly perspectives, not spiritual perspectives\u2014then we think they can be met other ways, and they can\u2019t. That\u2019s how I thought.\n\nThis journey began very shortly after me humbling myself and saying: \u201cLord, I\u2019m going\u2014this marriage is Yours. I\u2019m going to serve You.\u201d It began the process of me walking toward freedom that I already had. This was the truth that I didn\u2019t understand\u2014is recognizing the truth of what it was I was doing, and it came out of my wife\u2019s mouth.\n\nIt started with my wife telling me the truth. It should have been people, long\/long ago, that knew of the things that I was doing\u2014as a teenager, high schooler, college student\u2014and they never told me the truth from the Bible. They never told me what it was I was doing. It was all: \u201cWe\u2019re kind of on the same page,\u201d \u201cNo one ever really walks in perfect purity,\u201d\u2014they\u2019re lies!!\n\nIt started this journey with Jennifer coming to me, humbly. She was hurt; she has a right to be hurt, but she told me\u2014she\u2019s like, \u201cYou\u2019re not just committing adultery against me\/you\u2019re not just preparing something that our son\u2019s probably going to walk in if you keep doing this, but you\u2019re also sinning against God.\u201d I started weeping, because she was right! What I was doing was that!\u2014not just hurting <em>her<\/em>\u2014I was walking out of fellowship\/out of sync with the Father.\n\nThen, years later, I was walking in, less and less, repenting every time to my wife. I thought I was repenting\u2014I\u2019ll get to that in a second. Then, finally, I\u2019m sitting in the car with a mentor of ours. He asks me, \u201cHey, you walking in purity?\u201d I\u2018m like, \u201cUhhhh, no\u2014like last week\u2014it\u2019s been getting less and less,\u201d\u2014kind of like going through the motions with my addiction of pornography; right?\u2014minimizing it. I was just, \u201cUh, this little thing. I stopped, and I repented\u2014I told you, upfront.\u201d\n\nHe\u2019s like, \u201cYou know why you keep doing this; right?\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWhy?\u201d And <a id=\"_Hlk12103215\"><\/a>he\u2019s like, \u201cBecause you love your sin.\u201d I was like, \u201cWhat?!\u201d \u201cYou love it.\u201d \u201cI don\u2019t love it; I hate it! I want to\u2026\u201d He\u2019s like, \u201cOh, you do? Do actions speak louder than words?\u201d I go, \u201cYes.\u201d He\u2019s like, \u201cYour actions are telling the truth, and your words are lying!\u201d\n\nI said, \u201cI didn\u2019t love it.\u201d I said, \u201cI hated it.\u201d I said, \u201cI want\u2026\u201d I said I was repentant. The thing I was repenting of was the shame I felt; the thing I was confessing was the guilt I felt. The thing I was sorry for was hurting my wife. I was not repentant of my love of my sin. I had to get to that point. He\u2019s like: \u201cYou can\u2019t repent until you repent of the thing that you are doing!\u2014you <em>love<\/em> your sin!\u201d\n\nThat was: \u201cWhy have I never heard that before? Why has no pastor\/mentor of mine ever said that to me and made me look so deep?\u2014 that I\u2019m not just repentant of the feelings, or the shame, or the guilt, or who I hurt. I\u2019m actually repentant that I\u2019m sinning against God, and I love it!\u201d I had to like\u2014I was like, \u201cYou\u2019re right!\u201d Immediately, the Holy Spirit showing me all these\u2014the actions I take\u2014and He\u2019s like, \u201cYou do love.\u201d\n\nFinally, I was able to <em>truly<\/em> repent and say: \u201cI\u2019m\u2014Lord, forgive me! I have loved pornography more than You. I have chased this and practiced this, and I want to be forgiven for that.\u201d You know what?\u2014He has already forgiven me. You know what?\u2014I wasn\u2019t a slave to it. The thing he told me: \u201cYou think you\u2019re still a slave to this sin in your life, but Jesus Christ died to set you free from sin and death. So either He did or He didn\u2019t.\u201d\n\nI\u2019m sitting here\u2014in a jail cell, with the door open, and the fetters on the floor\u2014and I\u2019m asking God to free me. He\u2019s like, \u201cNo, no; you need now to <em>walk<\/em> in the freedom that was <em>freely<\/em> given to you on the cross when you confessed with your mouth and believed in your heart that Jesus is Lord and that He was raised from the dead.\u201d It was in that moment that I <em>finally<\/em> understood the gospel. Because as Paul says, the gospel is the power unto salvation. I was literally sitting there; and I finally confessed, for the first time in my life, of the actual sin of loving pornography. I finally believed that I was already free.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Jennifer, will you talk to the women\u2014that their husbands are struggling with this\/ maybe, they\u2019ve caught their husbands. It is a cycle; it\u2019s on-going; it\u2019s not stopping, and their husbands <em>aren\u2019t<\/em> repentant. What would you say to them?\n\n<strong>Jennifer: <\/strong>First thing I would say: \u201cKeep praying. You are the closest person in proximity to them\u2014keep praying. You know the intimate details of what they\u2019re walking\u2014pray for them. You have to see them as a brother in Christ.\u201d Like Aaron said earlier\u2014I had to come to that place, where I realized his salvation is more important than him being a good husband\u2014just to encourage them to just persevere with that.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>What you modeled was\u2014you shifted from being on the other side of the issue from him\u2014being hurt and being victimized by it, and that\u2019s all legitimate\u2014but all of a sudden, you said: \u201cWait; I can be his ally. I can be his helper in this.\u201d\n\nThe woundedness and the offense\u2014that\u2019s all real; I\u2019m not saying you ignore that\u2014but when a wife can shift and say: \u201cI want to be your helper here. I want to be your ally. I want to be a part of the team that sees the breakthrough in your life. This isn\u2019t about me and how I\u2019m hurt, this is about \u2018How do I help <em>you<\/em> with this struggle?\u2019\u201d That\u2019s an amazing turning point in your marriage.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>And it\u2019s a hard one to go to.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; I was going to ask; because I\u2019m sitting here, looking at two women. My wife has gone through the same thing\u2014sounds very similar in terms of her response, initially, when I first confessed\u2014it really hurt.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>The enemy steps in, and he is the <em>accuser<\/em> at that point. He\u2019s accusing me, saying: \u201cYou\u2019re not good enough. You\u2019re not meeting his needs. If you were better, he wouldn\u2019t have this struggle.\u201d The enemy is accusing you, too\u2014and you, as well, Aaron: \u201cLook at you\u2026\u201d\u2014kind of that shame\/guilt\u2014all of that.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Here\u2019s my question: \u201cHow did you get to a point, when you saw your husband as a brother in Christ\u2014that you are going to get over the hurt because it feels personal\u2014and get to a point like: \u2018I\u2019m a sister in Christ, as well; and I want to help\u2019? How\u2019d you make that turn?\u201d\n\n<strong>Jennifer: <\/strong>I think, for me, it was the testimony of another married couple\u2014what they walked\u2014opening my eyes up to see that model set before me. There was a story of a husband, who was unfaithful to his wife. It started with pornography and got\u2014\n\n<strong>Aaron: <\/strong>\u2014way worse!\n\n<strong>Jennifer:<\/strong> \u2014way worse! They stood on the stage at our church and, then, she got to tell her side. She said those words, \u201cI had to see him as a brother in Christ and \u2018What was my role in his life at that point?\u2019\u201d For me, it was that I could do that for Aaron. That\u2019s our hope in why we share online\/why we wrote <em>Marriage<\/em> <em>After God<\/em>\u2014is to, hopefully, show what this looks like and how other couples can partake in it and do it.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>It\u2019s interesting\u2014you pick up a book like <em>Marriage After God<\/em>; and you\u2019re first thought is: \u201cOh! They don\u2019t have any problems. They\u2019ve got God\u2014your marriage is after God\/it\u2019s built on God. We\u2019re not going to hear about this kind of struggle.\u201d Yet, even when God is the foundation, there\u2019s <em>real<\/em> struggle.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We are back where we started.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Right.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Exactly.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>There\u2019s an enemy who wants to take you out and will throw everything he\u2019s got at your marriage to try to cripple it, wound it, take you out of the playing field. This is where you\u2019ve got to\u2014it\u2019s what we say at the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> getaway: \u201cThere is an enemy; it\u2019s not your spouse. If you think your spouse is the enemy, that\u2019s what the real enemy wants you to think.\u201d But when you both look and say: \u201cOh! We are allies against a real enemy, who wants to take us out; so let\u2019s be united on our attack on <em>him<\/em> rather than our attacks on one another.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>That\u2019s what I was going to say, Bob. We need to look at ourselves as a team. I think that\u2019s where Dave and I got into trouble. I thought, \u201cThis is <em>your<\/em> problem\u201d; I didn\u2019t see it as <em>our<\/em> problem.\n\nI remember thinking\u2014because this was, for us, over 30 years ago\u2014and not very many people were talking about it, at that point, to even get help. But I do remember, one day, realizing, \u201cYour husband is telling you the most intimate, sordid, deepest things that\u2019s he is struggling with.\u201d I remember wondering to myself, \u201cWould you rather have him be in the dark with that, or would you rather have him come to you?\u201d\n\nI thought: \u201cI want to know everything about my husband; I want to know everything about Dave Wilson\u2014what his struggles are\u2014because we\u2019re a team. As team members, we need to be on the same page, fighting the battle together, not fighting each other.\n\nI remember\u2014even some women have come up to me to say, \u201cI don\u2019t want to know if my husband struggles, because it\u2019s going to affect me so much I won\u2019t like him.\u201d But I remember saying to this one young wife\u2014I said: \u201cBut don\u2019t you want to know him and help him in the battle?\u2014because he\u2019s going to help you in a lot of your battles. So to be one and know everything about each other, then, you can face the enemy together; because more than anything, he wants you both to live in isolation.\u201d\n\n<strong>Jennifer: <\/strong>That\u2019s true.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019ve been thinking about as\u2014Aaron, you were telling your story\u2014I don\u2019t know why this has not connected with me for years; but I thought, \u201cPornography is Turkish Delight.\u201d We all know Turkish Delight is what the witch gave Edmund.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014in Narnia! [from C.S. Lewis\u2019 <em>Chronicles of<\/em> <em>Narnia<\/em>.]\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>He tasted it; and he said, \u201cThis is good\u201d; and then he was hooked; and then he was enslaved because what tasted sweet, the first time, soon became that addiction. We can pick any number of sins or idols in our lives and say, \u201cThat is Turkish Delight.\u201d Until somebody comes along\u2014and does what your mentor did\u2014breaks the spell and says: \u201cThis is not food; this is destroying you. This is an offense against God.\u201d That is what it takes\u2014is that kind of recognition that pornography is, in fact, an offense before a Holy God. It is a tool of the enemy to destroy you and your marriage; and then, to go, \u201cI don\u2019t want that.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I would just add that what you modeled for us\/what you wrote in your book is: \u201cAs long as that sin\u2014or any sin\/any temptation\u2014is in the dark, it wins.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>It lives in the dark; it dies in the light.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>The enemy wants you to do\u2014keep it there: \u201cYou can beat this. It\u2019s a one time; you won\u2019t do it again.\u201d The second it\u2019s brought into the light\u2014to your spouse\/to another guy\u2014and this isn\u2019t just a guy problem\u2014we know that. But as long as it\u2019s in the dark, that sin ends up winning and destroys marriages. When it comes in the light, everything changes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019ve been mentioning your book, <em>Marriage After God<\/em>, which we are making available this week to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners, who can help support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> with a donation. We are listener-supported. The funds we need to produce and syndicate this program\u2014make it available to, literally, hundreds of thousands of listeners every day\u2014those funds come from listeners, like you, who say: \u201cT<a id=\"_Hlk12277662\"><\/a>his is important for our family,\u201d \u201cThis is important for our community. We want this on our local radio station.\u201d\n\nWe want people, all around the world, to be able to access this kind of practical biblical help and hope for their marriage and their family online, on the <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> app, or using their Amazon Alexa devices. You make that possible when you donate to support this ministry. If you can help us today, we\u2019d like to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d by sending you Aaron and Jennifer\u2019s book, <em>Marriage After God. <\/em>The subtitle is <em>Chasing Boldly After God\u2019s Purpose for Your Life Together.<\/em> Request the book when you donate at FamilyLifeToday.com or when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate.\n\nBy the way, Aaron and Jennifer are blogging and have a podcast. We\u2019ve got a link on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com to what you guys are doing. Let me encourage our listeners\u2014find out more about [their] ministry: go to FamilyLifeToday.com and the information is all available right there.\n\nI was reminded, in our conversation today, that we can\u2019t forget that there is a real enemy. David Robbins, the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, is here with us. When we lose sight of the fact that there\u2019s a real enemy out to get our marriage, that\u2019s when we start to lose the battle.\n\n<strong>David: <\/strong>Yes; this is one of those concepts in FamilyLife\u2019s <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> that really, I think, a lot of people come away with as their <em>main<\/em> take-away. There\u2019s this line that most speakers say, \u201cMy spouse is not my enemy,\u201d\u2014that is what ends up getting quoted on Twitter<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> and put on Instagram<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. That is just\u2014we need that reminder!\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That\u2019s a big idea!\n\n<strong>David: <\/strong>Splash water on our face and go: \u201cI am viewing my marriage wrong!\u00a0 Satan is our real enemy.\u201d He would <em>love<\/em> to divide our marriages through suspicion, or jealousy, or disrespect, or resentment. We <em>must<\/em> be aware of him and his spouse-splitting schemes and attempts to lure us to hide our sin in the shadows and not bring things into the light. As long as you are seeing each other as an enemy, the real enemy is gaining ground in our marriages.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes; great reminder! Thank you, David.\n\nBy the way, you\u2019ll want to listen tomorrow; because we\u2019re going to be talking with Aaron and Jennifer about something I know you\u2019re [David] passionate about; and that is, couples being in ministry together. Whether you know it or not\u2014if you\u2019re married, and you\u2019re in Christ\u2014you\u2019re in ministry together. We\u2019re going to talk more about that tomorrow with Aaron and Jennifer Smith. I hope you can be with us for that.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. 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});\";s:18:\"current_block_list\";a:17:{i:0;s:14:\"uagb\/container\";i:1;s:12:\"core\/heading\";i:2;s:9:\"core\/html\";i:3;s:10:\"core\/group\";i:6;s:21:\"uagb\/advanced-heading\";i:7;s:14:\"uagb\/separator\";i:8;s:14:\"uagb\/icon-list\";i:9;s:20:\"uagb\/icon-list-child\";i:10;s:11:\"core\/search\";i:13;s:18:\"core\/legacy-widget\";i:16;s:10:\"uagb\/image\";i:17;s:17:\"core\/social-links\";i:18;s:16:\"core\/social-link\";i:19;s:14:\"core\/paragraph\";i:20;s:30:\"meta-box\/fl-conditional-blocks\";i:21;s:12:\"uagb\/buttons\";i:22;s:18:\"uagb\/buttons-child\";}s:8:\"uag_flag\";b:1;s:11:\"uag_version\";i:1776470598;s:6:\"gfonts\";a:1:{s:7:\"Default\";a:2:{s:10:\"fontfamily\";s:7:\"Default\";s:12:\"fontvariants\";a:0:{}}}s:10:\"gfonts_url\";s:71:\"\/\/fonts.googleapis.com\/css?family=Default&subset=latin&display=fallback\";s:12:\"gfonts_files\";a:0:{}s:14:\"uag_faq_layout\";b:0;}"]},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Aaron and Jennifer Smith tell how they found themselves at odds with one another when intimacy issues made it impossible to consummate their marriage. Hear how Aaron found freedom from pornography and how Jennifer learned to be his ally in the effort.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-07-09.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Before he was married, and early in his marriage, Aaron Smith battled with pornography. The turning point came when a friend of his finally confronted him.\n\n<strong>Aaron: <\/strong><a id=\"_Hlk12102840\"><\/a>I\u2019m sitting in the car with a mentor of ours. He askes me, \u201cHey, you walking in purity?\u201d I\u2018m like, \u201cUhhhh, no\u2014like last week\u2014you know, it\u2019s been getting less and less,\u201d\u2014kind of going through the motions with my addiction with pornography; right? He\u2019s like, \u201cYou know why you keep doing this; right?\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWhy?\u201d He\u2019s like, \u201cBecause you love your sin.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, July 9<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. The things we love more than we love God in life or in marriage\u2014even the <em>good<\/em> things\u2014those are the things that will, ultimately, destroy our lives and marriages. We\u2019ll hear more about that today from Aaron and Jennifer Smith. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. It occurs to me that, when a couple gets married, just the fact they get married\u2014we are often unaware of this\u2014but what we\u2019ve done, when we get married, is we\u2019ve entered into something that God says, \u201cThis is a part of My plan for you.\u201d As soon as He says that, the enemy says: \u201cOkay; well, then, I\u2019m going to try to destroy this. If God is for this, then I\u2019m against it.\u201d\n\nThen, if a couple in that marriage says, \u201cWe\u2019re going to be wholly committed to Christ and really try to serve Him with our marriage,\u201d the enemy is going to go, \u201cOkay; we\u2019re going to turn up the attack here.\u201d You guys have experienced this in your marriage; right?\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes! It makes me think, Bob\u2014you know, as a pastor, I do weddings. Can you imagine me saying that at your wedding day?\u2014\u201cHey, by the way, let me tell you what you\u2019re entering into today. You\u2019re into a <em>war<\/em>! [Laughter] And you\u2019re at the center of this war.\u201d I mean\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And yet it\u2019s true!\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014it is true.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You\u2019d like to hand flak jackets out if you could. [Laughter] \u201cDon\u2019t wear a wedding dress; wear a flak jacket to the wedding, because you\u2019re stepping into the crosshairs.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I wish I would\u2019ve heard that, because there is an intensity and a mission in marriage that people don\u2019t always talk about before you\u2019re married. If we knew: \u201cHey, you\u2019re getting ready to enter a battle,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s scary; but there\u2019s also a part: \u201cso put on your armor and get ready, because the enemy will do anything to thwart your marriage.\u201d\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I think the scary thing is\u2014you can sit in church and be a follower of Christ and know better than to buy the culture\u2019s ideal of marriage, but we do the same thing. We watch shows, and it\u2019s all about happiness and finding <em>the one<\/em>. We know better\u2014we know God\u2019s got a bigger plan\u2014then, you get married and you find yourself wanting the same thing. You have to remind yourself.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes!\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You\u2019ve been discipled by the culture\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Right!\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014instead of being discipled by the Bible.\n\nWe\u2019ve got a couple joining us this week\u2014Aaron and Jennifer Smith\u2014who know a little bit about the slings and arrows that come with marriage. Jennifer and Aaron, welcome back.\n\n<strong>Jennifer: <\/strong>Thanks.\n\n<strong>Aaron: <\/strong>Thank you for having us.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Jennifer and Aaron have written a book called, <em>Marriage After God: Chasing Boldly After God\u2019s Purpose for Your Life Together. <\/em>Jennifer has been with us before\u2014wrote a book called <em>The Unveiled Wife<\/em>\u2014and told about some of the hard, challenging early years of marriage. Again, if you\u2019d like to listen to that in some detail, including the unpacking of the story of finding sexual intimacy to be painful during the first four years of [her] marriage, you can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and listen to that podcast.\n\nBut this issue of intimacy was not the only spiritual attack that you found facing you after you said, \u201cI do.\u201d You\u2019re early years included more than just that as a challenge; right?\n\n<strong>Aaron: <\/strong>I mean, there\u2019s just the naturalthings: dealing with money, sleeping in the same bed with someone, learning to not be selfish anymore. We think we\u2019re not selfish until we get married\u2014like, \u201cWow; my wife is the most selfish person I\u2019ve ever met. [Laughter] And I\u2019m great,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s how we <em>think<\/em>. It\u2019s sanctifying; it\u2019s a process of dying to self. It\u2019s one of the greatest ways God planned to sanctify us\u2014is in our oneness\/the unifying nature of our marriage as we, day after day, year after year, walk with each other\/learn each other\u2019s ways.\n\nTo be honest\u2014often, we try to change the other person to be more like ourselves; and Christ wants us to both change to be more like Him. It\u2019s learning to say, \u201cNo,\u201d to ourselves and \u201cYes,\u201d to God and allow Him to change us. Everything feels like an attack when you\u2019re only looking inward.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right; in those first years, when sexual intimacy was painful and was not a part of your marriage\u2014Aaron, we talked about this earlier\u2014one of the ways you dealt with that was by looking at pornography, which had been a part of your past before you got married. Now, you kind of felt: \u201cWell, maybe this is acceptable; because I don\u2019t have marital intimacy. Maybe, this is my alternative.\u201d Did you feel justified, or did you feel guilty? How did you feel?\n\n<strong>Aaron: <\/strong>Both.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Okay.\n\n<strong>Aaron: <\/strong>When you have the Holy Spirit in you, the only way to not feel the guilt of our sin is to quench the Spirit and push Him away\u2014eventually, we see our conscience\u2014and that is the result of walking in perpetual, unrepentant sin. I have the Holy Spirit in me, and I always felt the shame and guilt.\n\nBut you know what? In my flesh, because I was walking in the flesh and not the Spirit, I was justifying it, saying: \u201cWhat else am I going to do? I can\u2019t get it from my wife,\u201d and \u201cI\u2019m not going to cheat on her. I\u2019m not going to\u2026\u201d\u2014that\u2019s what I <em>thought<\/em>. It\u2019s twisted when we walk in unrepentant sin\/when we walk in things that sear our conscience over time. It starts small. You see people that go, \u201cHow could they have done that?\u201d Well, it didn\u2019t start that way; it starts small. You take steps away from God; and you tell yourself, \u201cThis is okay,\u201d\u2014you find other reasons to justify. I used my wife to justify.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Jennifer, were you aware of any of this?\n\n<strong>Jennifer: <\/strong>I was. He was actually really transparent with me about his struggle, even before marriage. It was just an uncomfortable place for me to understand what he was dealing with; so as much as I could, I avoided that conversation or made it small.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014because?\n\n<strong>Jennifer: <\/strong>It was just uncomfortable for me to think about what he was doing. It made me insecure\u2014as a woman and as his significant other\u2014to think that I wasn\u2019t good enough. There were a lot of reasons why I wanted to avoid it or pretend it didn\u2019t exist.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Were you\u2014like did you walk in on him? Did you\u2014\n\n<strong>Jennifer: <\/strong>No; it was always after the fact that he came to me and confessed his sin. I believe he, truly, had a heart to not want that anymore; but it was definitely a struggle that had a stronghold in his life.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And as a wife\u2014who is aware of that fact that intercourse if painful\/this can\u2019t be a part of your marriage\u2014there had to a part of you, going: \u201cWell, I feel sorry that you\u2019re in the situation you\u2019re in. Maybe I just need to look the other way and say, \u2018If that\u2019s what you need, go for it.\u2019\u201d\n\n<strong>Jennifer: <\/strong>There was a part of me that gave him a pass on it; but then, there were other times that I was so overwhelmed with emotions that I would cry or be angry when he told me. I didn\u2019t have control over my emotions like I should have in those times\u2014not every time. I think, as we continued on in our marriage, we both matured in this area\u2014of him not doing it anymore and me learning how to have self-control in my emotions, as a wife.\n\n<strong>Aaron: <\/strong>And, also, you\u2019re perspective on what it was you were doing in coming to me. We talk about, in the book, the things that [harm] our effectiveness as believers. The reason we phrase it that way is because there is an effectiveness that we can have in this world\u2014the Bible calls us salt\/calls us light. Even in that parable of the salt, it says, \u201cWhat good is salt if it looses it\u2019s saltiness?\u201d\n\n<strong>Jennifer:<\/strong> Sometimes, I think the enemy <em>knows<\/em> our effectiveness for God\u2019s kingdom more than we even know it.\n\n<strong>Aaron: <\/strong>Oh yes!In those seasons you, Jennifer\u2014being hurt, seeing it as a personal attack on you, which\u2014she is my wife, so it was. But me, seeing my sin as something I\u2019m justified in. There was no way, in that season, we could be effective for God\u2014where the sin, and the lies, and the inward\/the selfishness\u2014kept us from being able to walk in the things that God prepared for us to do before the foundation of the earth\u2014the good works that He has prepared for us to do\u2014we couldn\u2019t; we were just in our place.\n\nThat\u2019s one of the reasons why we wrote this book. The main reason is we want to invite other married couples to recognize what God\u2019s purpose is for them. It\u2019s not just to have a happy healthy marriage\u2014that\u2019s a product after choosing after God; it\u2019s also fruit after choosing after God; and it\u2019s also the thing that validates our message: \u201cLook at our life\u2014it\u2019s not perfect\u2014but we love God. We\u2019re chasing after Him with everything, and this is what we look like.\u201d\n\n<strong>Jennifer: <\/strong>We can express joy, even amidst hardships, if those are there.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> How did you get out of that dark sort of cycle you were in, where you\u2014you\u2019re trying to find your sexual needs met in a sinful way. You guys are talking about it; but at some point, you had to\u2014you start winning.\n\n<strong>Jennifer:<\/strong> One of the first things that comes to my mind is\u2014earlier, you shared how God humbled you; and shortly thereafter that situation, I remember God also working in my heart, as his wife, to not just explode with emotion when he confessed his sin to me but to really understand it myself: \u201cWhat is he going through?\u201d and \u201cWhat\u2019s my role in this?\u201d\n\nI remember we had just had our son, Elliot\u2014he was just a couple months old. I was rocking him in the corner of our bedroom, and Aaron had confessed to me that he had \u201cmessed up.\u201d\n\n<strong>Aaron: <\/strong>That was our term.\n\n<strong>Jennifer: <\/strong>I just went straight to Scripture. I reminded him what Jesus said about lust being adultery. I said to him: \u201cYou are committing adultery, and you are leaving a legacy for our children of this. What do you want Elliot, your son, to have an example of when he grows up?\u201d This is our first experience of being parents and understanding that we are leaving a legacy. I think that was an impactful, pivotal moment in our marriage.\n\n<strong>Aaron: <\/strong>It was the first time you ever addressed me more as a brother in Christ instead of just a husband, who has hurt you.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Did that make a difference?\n\n<strong>Aaron: <\/strong>What made the difference was that she told me the truth about what I was doing, because the truth is\u2014is that I was committing adultery. I wanted to go back to me looking for my sexual needs to be met. That\u2019s a lie, also, that I believed\u2014is that I had these sexual need that had to be met: \u201cI\u2019m going to find them elsewhere,\u201d\u2014actually, I have a sexuality that was designed for marriage. When we have all of these perspectives\u2014that are fleshly perspectives, not spiritual perspectives\u2014then we think they can be met other ways, and they can\u2019t. That\u2019s how I thought.\n\nThis journey began very shortly after me humbling myself and saying: \u201cLord, I\u2019m going\u2014this marriage is Yours. I\u2019m going to serve You.\u201d It began the process of me walking toward freedom that I already had. This was the truth that I didn\u2019t understand\u2014is recognizing the truth of what it was I was doing, and it came out of my wife\u2019s mouth.\n\nIt started with my wife telling me the truth. It should have been people, long\/long ago, that knew of the things that I was doing\u2014as a teenager, high schooler, college student\u2014and they never told me the truth from the Bible. They never told me what it was I was doing. It was all: \u201cWe\u2019re kind of on the same page,\u201d \u201cNo one ever really walks in perfect purity,\u201d\u2014they\u2019re lies!!\n\nIt started this journey with Jennifer coming to me, humbly. She was hurt; she has a right to be hurt, but she told me\u2014she\u2019s like, \u201cYou\u2019re not just committing adultery against me\/you\u2019re not just preparing something that our son\u2019s probably going to walk in if you keep doing this, but you\u2019re also sinning against God.\u201d I started weeping, because she was right! What I was doing was that!\u2014not just hurting <em>her<\/em>\u2014I was walking out of fellowship\/out of sync with the Father.\n\nThen, years later, I was walking in, less and less, repenting every time to my wife. I thought I was repenting\u2014I\u2019ll get to that in a second. Then, finally, I\u2019m sitting in the car with a mentor of ours. He asks me, \u201cHey, you walking in purity?\u201d I\u2018m like, \u201cUhhhh, no\u2014like last week\u2014it\u2019s been getting less and less,\u201d\u2014kind of like going through the motions with my addiction of pornography; right?\u2014minimizing it. I was just, \u201cUh, this little thing. I stopped, and I repented\u2014I told you, upfront.\u201d\n\nHe\u2019s like, \u201cYou know why you keep doing this; right?\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWhy?\u201d And <a id=\"_Hlk12103215\"><\/a>he\u2019s like, \u201cBecause you love your sin.\u201d I was like, \u201cWhat?!\u201d \u201cYou love it.\u201d \u201cI don\u2019t love it; I hate it! I want to\u2026\u201d He\u2019s like, \u201cOh, you do? Do actions speak louder than words?\u201d I go, \u201cYes.\u201d He\u2019s like, \u201cYour actions are telling the truth, and your words are lying!\u201d\n\nI said, \u201cI didn\u2019t love it.\u201d I said, \u201cI hated it.\u201d I said, \u201cI want\u2026\u201d I said I was repentant. The thing I was repenting of was the shame I felt; the thing I was confessing was the guilt I felt. The thing I was sorry for was hurting my wife. I was not repentant of my love of my sin. I had to get to that point. He\u2019s like: \u201cYou can\u2019t repent until you repent of the thing that you are doing!\u2014you <em>love<\/em> your sin!\u201d\n\nThat was: \u201cWhy have I never heard that before? Why has no pastor\/mentor of mine ever said that to me and made me look so deep?\u2014 that I\u2019m not just repentant of the feelings, or the shame, or the guilt, or who I hurt. I\u2019m actually repentant that I\u2019m sinning against God, and I love it!\u201d I had to like\u2014I was like, \u201cYou\u2019re right!\u201d Immediately, the Holy Spirit showing me all these\u2014the actions I take\u2014and He\u2019s like, \u201cYou do love.\u201d\n\nFinally, I was able to <em>truly<\/em> repent and say: \u201cI\u2019m\u2014Lord, forgive me! I have loved pornography more than You. I have chased this and practiced this, and I want to be forgiven for that.\u201d You know what?\u2014He has already forgiven me. You know what?\u2014I wasn\u2019t a slave to it. The thing he told me: \u201cYou think you\u2019re still a slave to this sin in your life, but Jesus Christ died to set you free from sin and death. So either He did or He didn\u2019t.\u201d\n\nI\u2019m sitting here\u2014in a jail cell, with the door open, and the fetters on the floor\u2014and I\u2019m asking God to free me. He\u2019s like, \u201cNo, no; you need now to <em>walk<\/em> in the freedom that was <em>freely<\/em> given to you on the cross when you confessed with your mouth and believed in your heart that Jesus is Lord and that He was raised from the dead.\u201d It was in that moment that I <em>finally<\/em> understood the gospel. Because as Paul says, the gospel is the power unto salvation. I was literally sitting there; and I finally confessed, for the first time in my life, of the actual sin of loving pornography. I finally believed that I was already free.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Jennifer, will you talk to the women\u2014that their husbands are struggling with this\/ maybe, they\u2019ve caught their husbands. It is a cycle; it\u2019s on-going; it\u2019s not stopping, and their husbands <em>aren\u2019t<\/em> repentant. What would you say to them?\n\n<strong>Jennifer: <\/strong>First thing I would say: \u201cKeep praying. You are the closest person in proximity to them\u2014keep praying. You know the intimate details of what they\u2019re walking\u2014pray for them. You have to see them as a brother in Christ.\u201d Like Aaron said earlier\u2014I had to come to that place, where I realized his salvation is more important than him being a good husband\u2014just to encourage them to just persevere with that.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>What you modeled was\u2014you shifted from being on the other side of the issue from him\u2014being hurt and being victimized by it, and that\u2019s all legitimate\u2014but all of a sudden, you said: \u201cWait; I can be his ally. I can be his helper in this.\u201d\n\nThe woundedness and the offense\u2014that\u2019s all real; I\u2019m not saying you ignore that\u2014but when a wife can shift and say: \u201cI want to be your helper here. I want to be your ally. I want to be a part of the team that sees the breakthrough in your life. This isn\u2019t about me and how I\u2019m hurt, this is about \u2018How do I help <em>you<\/em> with this struggle?\u2019\u201d That\u2019s an amazing turning point in your marriage.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>And it\u2019s a hard one to go to.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; I was going to ask; because I\u2019m sitting here, looking at two women. My wife has gone through the same thing\u2014sounds very similar in terms of her response, initially, when I first confessed\u2014it really hurt.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>The enemy steps in, and he is the <em>accuser<\/em> at that point. He\u2019s accusing me, saying: \u201cYou\u2019re not good enough. You\u2019re not meeting his needs. If you were better, he wouldn\u2019t have this struggle.\u201d The enemy is accusing you, too\u2014and you, as well, Aaron: \u201cLook at you\u2026\u201d\u2014kind of that shame\/guilt\u2014all of that.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Here\u2019s my question: \u201cHow did you get to a point, when you saw your husband as a brother in Christ\u2014that you are going to get over the hurt because it feels personal\u2014and get to a point like: \u2018I\u2019m a sister in Christ, as well; and I want to help\u2019? How\u2019d you make that turn?\u201d\n\n<strong>Jennifer: <\/strong>I think, for me, it was the testimony of another married couple\u2014what they walked\u2014opening my eyes up to see that model set before me. There was a story of a husband, who was unfaithful to his wife. It started with pornography and got\u2014\n\n<strong>Aaron: <\/strong>\u2014way worse!\n\n<strong>Jennifer:<\/strong> \u2014way worse! They stood on the stage at our church and, then, she got to tell her side. She said those words, \u201cI had to see him as a brother in Christ and \u2018What was my role in his life at that point?\u2019\u201d For me, it was that I could do that for Aaron. That\u2019s our hope in why we share online\/why we wrote <em>Marriage<\/em> <em>After God<\/em>\u2014is to, hopefully, show what this looks like and how other couples can partake in it and do it.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>It\u2019s interesting\u2014you pick up a book like <em>Marriage After God<\/em>; and you\u2019re first thought is: \u201cOh! They don\u2019t have any problems. They\u2019ve got God\u2014your marriage is after God\/it\u2019s built on God. We\u2019re not going to hear about this kind of struggle.\u201d Yet, even when God is the foundation, there\u2019s <em>real<\/em> struggle.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We are back where we started.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Right.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Exactly.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>There\u2019s an enemy who wants to take you out and will throw everything he\u2019s got at your marriage to try to cripple it, wound it, take you out of the playing field. This is where you\u2019ve got to\u2014it\u2019s what we say at the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> getaway: \u201cThere is an enemy; it\u2019s not your spouse. If you think your spouse is the enemy, that\u2019s what the real enemy wants you to think.\u201d But when you both look and say: \u201cOh! We are allies against a real enemy, who wants to take us out; so let\u2019s be united on our attack on <em>him<\/em> rather than our attacks on one another.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>That\u2019s what I was going to say, Bob. We need to look at ourselves as a team. I think that\u2019s where Dave and I got into trouble. I thought, \u201cThis is <em>your<\/em> problem\u201d; I didn\u2019t see it as <em>our<\/em> problem.\n\nI remember thinking\u2014because this was, for us, over 30 years ago\u2014and not very many people were talking about it, at that point, to even get help. But I do remember, one day, realizing, \u201cYour husband is telling you the most intimate, sordid, deepest things that\u2019s he is struggling with.\u201d I remember wondering to myself, \u201cWould you rather have him be in the dark with that, or would you rather have him come to you?\u201d\n\nI thought: \u201cI want to know everything about my husband; I want to know everything about Dave Wilson\u2014what his struggles are\u2014because we\u2019re a team. As team members, we need to be on the same page, fighting the battle together, not fighting each other.\n\nI remember\u2014even some women have come up to me to say, \u201cI don\u2019t want to know if my husband struggles, because it\u2019s going to affect me so much I won\u2019t like him.\u201d But I remember saying to this one young wife\u2014I said: \u201cBut don\u2019t you want to know him and help him in the battle?\u2014because he\u2019s going to help you in a lot of your battles. So to be one and know everything about each other, then, you can face the enemy together; because more than anything, he wants you both to live in isolation.\u201d\n\n<strong>Jennifer: <\/strong>That\u2019s true.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019ve been thinking about as\u2014Aaron, you were telling your story\u2014I don\u2019t know why this has not connected with me for years; but I thought, \u201cPornography is Turkish Delight.\u201d We all know Turkish Delight is what the witch gave Edmund.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014in Narnia! [from C.S. Lewis\u2019 <em>Chronicles of<\/em> <em>Narnia<\/em>.]\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>He tasted it; and he said, \u201cThis is good\u201d; and then he was hooked; and then he was enslaved because what tasted sweet, the first time, soon became that addiction. We can pick any number of sins or idols in our lives and say, \u201cThat is Turkish Delight.\u201d Until somebody comes along\u2014and does what your mentor did\u2014breaks the spell and says: \u201cThis is not food; this is destroying you. This is an offense against God.\u201d That is what it takes\u2014is that kind of recognition that pornography is, in fact, an offense before a Holy God. It is a tool of the enemy to destroy you and your marriage; and then, to go, \u201cI don\u2019t want that.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I would just add that what you modeled for us\/what you wrote in your book is: \u201cAs long as that sin\u2014or any sin\/any temptation\u2014is in the dark, it wins.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>It lives in the dark; it dies in the light.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>The enemy wants you to do\u2014keep it there: \u201cYou can beat this. It\u2019s a one time; you won\u2019t do it again.\u201d The second it\u2019s brought into the light\u2014to your spouse\/to another guy\u2014and this isn\u2019t just a guy problem\u2014we know that. But as long as it\u2019s in the dark, that sin ends up winning and destroys marriages. When it comes in the light, everything changes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019ve been mentioning your book, <em>Marriage After God<\/em>, which we are making available this week to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners, who can help support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> with a donation. We are listener-supported. The funds we need to produce and syndicate this program\u2014make it available to, literally, hundreds of thousands of listeners every day\u2014those funds come from listeners, like you, who say: \u201cT<a id=\"_Hlk12277662\"><\/a>his is important for our family,\u201d \u201cThis is important for our community. We want this on our local radio station.\u201d\n\nWe want people, all around the world, to be able to access this kind of practical biblical help and hope for their marriage and their family online, on the <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> app, or using their Amazon Alexa devices. You make that possible when you donate to support this ministry. If you can help us today, we\u2019d like to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d by sending you Aaron and Jennifer\u2019s book, <em>Marriage After God. <\/em>The subtitle is <em>Chasing Boldly After God\u2019s Purpose for Your Life Together.<\/em> Request the book when you donate at FamilyLifeToday.com or when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate.\n\nBy the way, Aaron and Jennifer are blogging and have a podcast. We\u2019ve got a link on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com to what you guys are doing. Let me encourage our listeners\u2014find out more about [their] ministry: go to FamilyLifeToday.com and the information is all available right there.\n\nI was reminded, in our conversation today, that we can\u2019t forget that there is a real enemy. David Robbins, the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, is here with us. When we lose sight of the fact that there\u2019s a real enemy out to get our marriage, that\u2019s when we start to lose the battle.\n\n<strong>David: <\/strong>Yes; this is one of those concepts in FamilyLife\u2019s <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> that really, I think, a lot of people come away with as their <em>main<\/em> take-away. There\u2019s this line that most speakers say, \u201cMy spouse is not my enemy,\u201d\u2014that is what ends up getting quoted on Twitter<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> and put on Instagram<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. That is just\u2014we need that reminder!\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That\u2019s a big idea!\n\n<strong>David: <\/strong>Splash water on our face and go: \u201cI am viewing my marriage wrong!\u00a0 Satan is our real enemy.\u201d He would <em>love<\/em> to divide our marriages through suspicion, or jealousy, or disrespect, or resentment. We <em>must<\/em> be aware of him and his spouse-splitting schemes and attempts to lure us to hide our sin in the shadows and not bring things into the light. As long as you are seeing each other as an enemy, the real enemy is gaining ground in our marriages.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes; great reminder! Thank you, David.\n\nBy the way, you\u2019ll want to listen tomorrow; because we\u2019re going to be talking with Aaron and Jennifer about something I know you\u2019re [David] passionate about; and that is, couples being in ministry together. Whether you know it or not\u2014if you\u2019re married, and you\u2019re in Christ\u2014you\u2019re in ministry together. We\u2019re going to talk more about that tomorrow with Aaron and Jennifer Smith. I hope you can be with us for that.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. 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