{"id":305127,"date":"2019-07-03T06:00:04","date_gmt":"2019-07-03T10:00:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/loves-pursuit\/"},"modified":"2019-07-03T06:00:04","modified_gmt":"2019-07-03T10:00:04","slug":"loves-pursuit","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/loves-pursuit\/","title":{"rendered":"Love&#8217;s Pursuit"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Despite her lifestyle, Jackie Hill Perry sensed that God was actively pursuing her. In 2008, she felt God speaking to her heart. Perry how her life slowly began to change.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-07-03.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:29:50","filesize":"27.32M","filesize_raw":"28650549","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2906,2896],"tags":[4130,4133,4129,4134,6667],"podcast_series":[7174],"cwp_profile":[3555],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-305127","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-becoming-a-christian","category-lgbt","tag-coming-out","tag-coming-to-christ","tag-homosexuality","tag-life-change","tag-teen-rebellion","podcast_series-gay-girl-good-god","cwp_profile-jackie-hill-perry","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/305127\/loves-pursuit","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/305127\/loves-pursuit","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"TBZ2Qfqp77\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/loves-pursuit\/\">Love&#8217;s Pursuit<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/loves-pursuit\/embed\/#?secret=TBZ2Qfqp77\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Love&#8217;s Pursuit&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"TBZ2Qfqp77\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-07-03.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-07-03.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>As a young woman, Jackie Hill Perry had what she calls a Damascus Road experience\u2014an encounter with God that caused her to realize she was going to have to follow Him and forsake the same-sex relationships she had been enjoying.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> So I called my girlfriend, and I told her what happened. I said: \u201cI love you. I <em>want<\/em> to be with you; but to serve God, I know I can\u2019t be with you.\u201d I <em>grieved<\/em> that relationship for a good year-and-a-half; because we were fine; we were good\u2014I was happy; I enjoyed her\u2014but I couldn\u2019t have her and God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Wednesday, July 3<sup>rd<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. Jackie Hill Perry joins us today to share how she came to understand that following Jesus meant \u201cThe world behind me and the cross before me.\u201d Stay tuned.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition. Is this a week where you normally shut down the normal schedule and get together with kids and do stuff?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes; it is. We are the family that does fireworks in the backyard, Bob.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Is that legal?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>It\u2019s legal.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>It\u2019s, now, legal in Michigan. And I am <em>always<\/em> fearful that someone will get hurt because\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>And nobody has ever gotten hurt, not yet.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes [under her breath].\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>But my oldest son is a pyrotechnic.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Is he?!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes; it\u2019s a little scary.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You do big fireworks?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Oh, yes! We do.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>One of the sons was shooting skyrockets\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014bottle rocket.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014bottle rocket. He had it with his one-year-old, who was shooting them off.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Okay; we\u2019re not sharing this story.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Oh, yes; maybe, we shouldn\u2019t share that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Nobody needs to hear this. [Laughter] It was dangerous, but nobody got hurt.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I just sit there and pray the whole time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Actually, it\u2019s not as bad as it sounds. We put it at the very back of the backyard. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes; we\u2019re safe.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>They light it, and everybody runs away. If it doesn\u2019t fall over, we\u2019re fine!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I remember that we had fireworks in our backyard one 4<sup>th<\/sup> of July. I think it was illegal, as I remember it. [Laughter] What I remember is\u2014my dad had nailed a pinwheel to a tree. Do you remember the pinwheels?\u2014that would sparkle? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>It\u2019d spin! Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>He went up; lit the pinwheel. And then, I remember him running away from it. I remember him saying, \u201cHere we come, Sergeant Donovan.\u201d Sergeant Donovan was the police sergeant in our city! [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Did he come over?!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>No; he never show up! But I have this memory of us breaking the law in our backyard on the 4<sup>th<\/sup> of July\u2014that time when we\u2019re supposed to be celebrating our nation\u2019s history, and patriotism, and all that. I remember us being law-breakers.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>And what does that have to do with our show today, Bob?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>It has to do with this season of the year and the fact that there\u2019ll be people, legally or illegally, doing fireworks this week in honor of the 4<sup>th<\/sup> of July. We don\u2019t recommend the illegal fireworks. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong><a id=\"_Hlk11419973\">No; we don\u2019t.<\/a>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> No; we don\u2019t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> No; we don\u2019t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That\u2019s right. We want to make sure we\u2019re on record with that. But we thought this week\u2014because it\u2019s a holiday week and listeners are out of their normal schedule\u2014a lot of them\u2014we wanted to re-air an interview\/a conversation that we had, back in March, with an author and speaker\/a remarkable young woman, whose name is Jackie Hill Perry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe wrote a book called <em>Gay Girl, Good God<\/em>. It tells her story, which we already heard a portion of it this week, where she talks about growing up in a home where she started to experience same-sex attraction when she was in high school\u2014decided to pursue that and act out on that\u2014and declared to her mom, \u201cI\u2019m gay\u201d; and lived with that for a couple of years.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs we pick up the conversation today, we come to the turning point in Jackie\u2019s life, where she recognizes: \u201cThat\u2019s not how God has called me to live,\u201d and \u201cI need to make a change.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Previous Interview]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> God had been pursuing me for a while; but it started to intensify around, maybe, early 2008, where it just seemed as if my convictions were increasing. There was this birthday party and my friend, Taylor, was there; Taylor was a Christian. Taylor gets up to, I guess, share some testimony about how God has been good to her; and she starts to weep and cry about God. It was the most confusing thing to me\u2014I was like: \u201cWhy is she so emotional about God? I really don\u2019t understand why He elicits this response out of somebody that\u2019s the same age as me.\u201d But my thought was: \u201cWhy doesn\u2019t He do that for me? Why am I so indifferent towards the idea of God that I wouldn\u2019t cry about Him?\u201d\u2014you know? I think me asking myself\u2014really, the Holy Spirit prompting those kinds of questions in my mind\u2014just wouldn\u2019t go away. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, I would be doing things with my girlfriend and be reminded of God\u2019s displeasure. I <em>felt<\/em> the distance. You know, we\u2019re born \u201cchildren of wrath\u201d; we are, \u201cby nature, enemies of God\u201d\u2014I didn\u2019t know those texts, but I <em>felt<\/em> it. I felt that me and God were not near\u2014that we were not intimate, that I did not love Him, and that I was not empowered to do what He wanted me to do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI called my cousin, Keisha, and I said: \u201cKeisha, I feel like God wants me, but I don\u2019t want Him. I don\u2019t know what to do about it. I just feel like I can\u2019t sin in peace. [Laughter] I\u2019m trying to enjoy my life; and He\u2019s messing with it by telling me how good He is, and how He loves me, and how He wants to be merciful. I don\u2019t want to hear all of that.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, a couple of months later, I was in my room\u2014it was 2008. I wasn\u2019t at church; I didn\u2019t go to churches, because I didn\u2019t like how Christians looked at me or acted when I was around. I <em>felt<\/em> as if God had spoken to my heart in such a way, where I saw all of my sin <em>rightly<\/em> for the first time\u2014and it wasn\u2019t just lesbianism\u2014it was all of it. I saw\u2014oh \u201cFor the wages of sin equals death\u201d is reality. That\u2019s just not a verse\u2014that\u2019s right now; that\u2019s today; that\u2019s this moment. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI started to think about all of my sin and its consequences. To me, it seemed as if none of it was worth it. You know, it\u2019s just like: You\u2019re doing all of this for some joy that might last you 50 years?\u201d\u2014like, \u201cThat\u2019s dumb,\u201d\u2014I thought about that; but I also told God\u2014I said, \u201cBut God, I don\u2019t want to be straight,\u201d because Him calling me to Himself felt like that was synonymous with being heterosexual. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI, again, felt as if God was saying: \u201cJust love Me; serve Me; Get to know Me.\u201d I knew, for a fact, that I could not stop sinning on my own\u2014I told God\/I said, \u201cI know I can\u2019t do this by myself, but I know enough about You to know that You\u2019ll help me.\u201d I didn\u2019t have words for that\u2014I didn\u2019t know it was repentance. I didn\u2019t know that I was seeing my sin as worthless and being\/and willing to turn from it. Nor did I know it was faith\u2014that I was now seeing Jesus in His glory, and seeing that He was the only One worthy of my affections, and the only One able to save me and keep me; but that\u2019s what it was\u2014it was repentance and faith in that moment.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow! You talk about this kind of being in church and being aware of these things. Was there something you <em>heard<\/em> that caused you to go, \u201cI got to reconsider what I\u2019ve been building my life around\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> No; I hadn\u2019t been to church. It really was a random kind of thing. It was a Damascus moment, where it\u2019s like God just interrupted my life\u2014placed Himself in my world in a way that I could not deny Him any longer. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And so what happened?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I called my friend, who was the\u2014I only knew\u2014there was only two Christians I trusted, and so she was the second one.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wait; what made you trust them?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> They loved me like Jackie. I felt like <em>most<\/em> Christians that I came in contact with\u2014all they saw was my gayness and not who I was. They treated me like a <em>gay<\/em> person instead of a <em>person<\/em>. You know, maybe there was this pressure of not knowing what to do with me\u2014this fear of \u201cAm I supposed to evangelize to her?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEven my cousin, Keisha, like when she would call me and we would talk, she would actually ask me about my day. We didn\u2019t have to go to Leviticus. [Laughter] She didn\u2019t have to remind me, \u201cYou know you\u2019re going to hell; right?\u201d\u2014[Laughter]\u2014she didn\u2019t do that. I think that\u2019s why she was one of the <em>first<\/em> people I called when God did start dealing with me, because I felt like she treated me like a human being. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think, post conversion, I called my friend; and I told her what happened, because I had to break up with my girlfriend now. I knew that would be a <em>really<\/em> difficult thing to do\u2014something that I didn\u2019t want to do\u2014but something I knew I had to, so she just encouraged me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI called my girlfriend, and I told her what happened\u2014I said: \u201cI love you. I <em>want<\/em> to be with you; but to serve God, I know I can\u2019t be with you.\u201d I <em>grieved<\/em> that relationship for a good year-and-a-half; because we were fine; we were good\u2014I was happy; I enjoyed her. We probably would have moved in together\u2014all that type of stuff\u2014but I couldn\u2019t have her and God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And how did she respond?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Crying, tears\u2014she was broken, because it was random\u2014I was just with her the day before. It was nothing that she would have foresaw, but it had to happen.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I hear your story, and I think of so many similarities. I was 18 years old, dating a guy\/having sex, but I had the same encounter with Jesus\u2014of having a conversation with Him and saying: \u201cI\u2019m tired of playing this game. I\u2019m going to follow You, and I\u2019m going to give You <em>all<\/em> of me. I\u2019ll do whatever You want me to do, go wherever You want me to go: break up with my boyfriend\u2014I\u2019m Yours\u2014totally all-in Yours.\u201d It\u2019s that transformation instantly: \u201cIf I\u2019m all Yours, I\u2019ll do whatever You want.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I love that God does that\u2014whether we\u2019re in a heterosexual relationship, a homosexual relationship\u2014God wants <em>all<\/em> of us. He\u2019s a jealous God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes; yes. It\u2019s reminiscent of how He does His disciples in the gospels\u2014it\u2019s always, you know, \u201cLeave all that; follow Me.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Everybody\u2019s got to let something go.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I tell you what\u2014I want to be the person that somebody, that decides to change their life, calls. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>That\u2019s good.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>When you said you called these people because you trusted them, there\u2019s so many people you <em>couldn\u2019t<\/em> call\u2014nobody could call\u2014because they look at the sin or they look at the person. I thought, \u201cMan, I want everybody listening right now to say, \u2018I want to be the person, who is a follower of Christ, that looks in the eyes of people and loves them\u2014loves them so much that, when they need to make an important decision, I\u2019m the person they call because they feel <em>loved<\/em> by Jesus through me.\u2019\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes; and it wasn\u2019t that they were passive on sin either. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie: <\/strong>I knew their stances on sin; and I knew they believed that God was holy, and that sin was wrong, and that it should be resisted. Yet, that wasn\u2019t the <em>entirety<\/em> of our conversation; nor was that what our entire friendship or relationship was built on\u2014was them trying to convert me. You know, it wasn\u2019t, \u201cI\u2019m only present with you to fix you,\u201d\u2014it wasn\u2019t that. It was, \u201cI\u2019m present with you to love you,\u201d and I think that\u2019s the aim that Christians would do well to shift to.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Jackie, you know there are books, or blogs, or podcasts you could listen to today that would say: \u201cYou didn\u2019t need to leave your lesbian relationship. You can love God. This is how God\u2019s made you to be. You just need to accept that, embrace that and you\u2019re going against who you are.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes; yes. I would say that\u2019s a misreading of the Scriptures or a non-reading of the Scriptures. I <em>know<\/em> why people would want both, but I\u2019m grateful that God is so holy that He has a standard. Yet, at the same time, I\u2019m seeing that, you know, in Timothy\u2014where it talks about how people accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their passions\u2014I\u2019m realizing how we read the Scriptures, and when we try to justify particular sins, it really is a heart issue that becomes a hermeneutical issue. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think I want people to recognize: \u201c<em>Why<\/em> do you want both? Are you unwilling to believe that God is not better than that?\u201d because that\u2019s really what it is. You believe that a created thing is able to sustain you and satisfy you more than the One that you were created for, and that\u2019s a lie\u2014a lie that\u2019s existed since the Garden [of Eden].\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And how, in the world, did you discover that?\u2014because it\u2019s obvious you knew that, even before you understood the Scripture. You <em>knew<\/em>\u2014you said earlier\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Sort of, not to that depth.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, you said earlier\u2014it just struck me that you said: \u201cWhy would I do this sin that\u2019s going to make me happy for 50 years? That\u2019s stupid.\u201d I thought, \u201cEverybody does that, and they don\u2019t think it\u2019s stupid,\u201d and yet, you had the insight to go, \u201cThat\u2019s a wasted life,\u201d so there\u2019s this depth as you read the Scripture\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; you have a depth to your soul.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I think that was 2 Corinthians 4 coming to life, where the veil is being lifted and I\u2019m finally seeing the glory of Christ in a way that I\u2019ve never seen Him; because, when you see God for real\u2014<em>for real<\/em> for real\u2014how can you ever turn your eyes?\u2014how?! He\u2019s Him! He\u2019s better than everything that ever existed, or He wouldn\u2019t be God. So I think its just the Holy Spirit showed me what was <em>always<\/em> there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So now, you\u2019re not tempted?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I\u2019m tempted; of course, I am\u2014I\u2019m in the flesh!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, you just said you\u2019ve seen\u2014the veil\u2019s been lifted\u2014come on.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Right; the difference isconversion has allowed me to have the <em>power<\/em> to say, \u201cNo,\u201d to my sin because the same Spirit that rose Jesus from the dead is in me. But He\u2019s also changed my heart and my affections, where now I\u2019m a new creature that, when tempted, I recognize that the things I\u2019m tempted by are not better than what I love or Who I love. I might still want it, but I want God <em>more<\/em>!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What would you say to that person? What would you have said if\u2014you know \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPsalm 139: \u201cGod knit me together in my mother\u2019s womb. I\u2019m fearfully and wonderfully made,\u201d\u2014would you ever say that: \u201cGod made me like that. He made me with a same-sex attraction\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> No; God made us in His image\u2014for sure, we are image-bearers. Our bodies are a good thing\/our minds\u2014the things that we are able to do for sure\u2014but our sin is something that we\u2019ve inherited from Adam. I wouldn\u2019t ever want to blame God for something like that\u2014you know, [Adam speaking] \u201cThe woman You gave me...\u201d I wouldn\u2019t want to blame God for my sin. But I also would say: \u201cWell, that\u2019s why God, in the New Testament\u2014and really, through the Scriptures\u2014is saying: \u2018Be born again. Let\u2019s start you over and make you someone who is new.\u2019\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So how did your mom find out\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> \u2014that I was a Christian? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and how did she take the news?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> [Laughter] We worked together. I went in her office and I said, \u201cHey mom, I\u2019m not going to be gay anymore.\u201d I didn\u2019t know how to phrase it; I would never phrase it that way now. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What would you say now?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I would say, \u201cI love Jesus now,\u201d\u2014I would change the phrasing\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What did she say?!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> \u2014I was 19; I didn\u2019t know what else to say. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe said \u201cOh, okay.\u201d I was like, \u201cNo; seriously, I gave my life to Jesus; and I\u2019m going to like follow Him.\u201d She said, \u201cWell, that\u2019s nice\u201d; because she didn\u2019t believe me. It was just kind of like\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cWe\u2019ll see.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cWe\u2019ll see.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think what started to change her <em>mind<\/em> was when I started to respect her\u2014like I started to do what she said when she wanted me to do it. I started to go to church. I stopped coming home high; I stopped lying to her. I still had my issues, for sure; I was still a very new Christian, so I didn\u2019t respect her 24\/7. I started cleaning up my room. I just think those small character changes were like, \u201cHmm, somethings different about her.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> After you were converted, did you go, \u201cOh, now, I like boys!\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> <em>No<\/em>; they were gross for a long time. [Laughter] I wasn\u2019t focused on that. I was honestly really content with being single, because it seemed like it would be more of a cross to carry to be with a man than it would to be a single woman.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Did you assume that you would probably be single the rest of your life?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I figured I would get married; but I was afraid of what that would actually look like, because it seemed like it would be definitely a challenge, as it was and is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So the first thing Jesus started to change in your life wasn\u2019t your sexuality?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> No! God was gracious to <em>immediately<\/em> get me connected to a group of believers, because I didn\u2019t know I needed church. I had a friend, who invited me to this church six days after I repented. I went to the church, and I had this exchange with a woman at the church that was significant to me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI walked in; and I had my friend\u2019s clothes on, because I had borrowed her clothes because I was like: \u201cYou know, I don\u2019t have time for Christians looking at me crazy because I\u2019m sagging. [Laughter] So let me wear your flats.\u201d [Laughter] Those were really uncomfortable to just wear flats all of a sudden. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI went in and this woman named Alisa\u2014she came up to me and said \u201cHey, what\u2019s your name?\u201d I said \u201cJackie.\u201d She looked me in my eyes, and she nodded: \u201cJackie. Nice to meet you, Jackie.\u201d I was like, \u201cWow, she wants to remember my name.\u201d I don\u2019t remember the sermon. I just remember her personalizing me and wanting to take hold of my name so that, when I do come back, she knew what to say.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Jackie, there are people tuned in today who still love their sin and are still looking at it and going, \u201cI don\u2019t think God\u2019s greater than the joy and pleasure I\u2019m getting from getting high,\u201d or \u201c\u2026from immorality,\u201d or from whatever. It may not be getting high and immorality\u2014it may be success. There are all kinds of things that could be ensnaring and trapping people. What would you say to them?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I think you could be honest with God about that. To me, that\u2019s the same as: \u201cGod, I don\u2019t believe. Help my unbelief.\u201d At the root of it is unbelief: \u201cI don\u2019t believe that You are who You say You are. I do believe that the tree [of the knowledge of good and evil] is good for food. I do believe that the tree is desired to make one wise. I don\u2019t believe that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. I don\u2019t believe that You are the bread of life. I want these other things to satisfy me and feel me up.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think, one, being willing to be honest with God and take the <em>risk<\/em> of faith. Take the risk that He really is all that He says that He is; because, at the end of the day, we know we won\u2019t all live long; we don\u2019t have that much time here. I think I would just push them to think higher\u2014to not think as earthly\u2014and to confess that to God, and trust, and wait and see what He can do with your heart if you give it to Him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I remember walking up to a speaker\/author, who spoke to a bunch of guys. I did the typical: \u201cI have a friend, who struggles with...\u201d\u2014I literally did that\u2014I said, \u201cI have a friend, who, when he travels, sometimes looks at porn in the hotel rooms he stays in.\u201d I said, \u201cWhat would you say to that guy?\u201d I\u2019ll never forget\u2014Larry Crabb said\u2014I said, \u201cWhy does that guy do that?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnn and I had been married ten years at this point; and I\u2019m in ministry, and I\u2019ve got this secret. I\u2019m asking him this; and Larry said just about what you said\u2014he said: \u201cThat guy believes God is not enough,\u201d and \u201cGod\u2019s not immediate, and this is\u201d; so he\u2019s going after a pleasure he can <em>feel<\/em>. But He doesn\u2019t know God well enough to know God is enough.\u201d I remember leaving, going: \u201cI don\u2019t know God well enough. It\u2019s like I have this idea of God and I preach it, but I don\u2019t <em>know<\/em> the beauty of the face of God that I would go after something else that\u2019s temporary and will not satisfy.\u201d That\u2019s just what you discovered.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think, too, as I listen to you\u2014I think the theme today is Jesus and His redemption of our lives. He is the highlight for all of us. In your story, He is the One that\u2019s changed <em>everything<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Studio]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What a remarkable story, as we are hearing this week, Jackie Hill Perry share about God\u2019s redeeming work in her life. And her understanding that her identity is not shaped by her desires. In fact, she\u2019s going to explore that more as we continue the conversation this week. But listening back to this, it is so encouraging to hear the power of God at work in somebody\u2019s life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Don\u2019t you love her honesty? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I do!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>It makes me so encouraged that God uses our story to inspire other people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I love life-change stories. It might be my number-one spiritual pathway in terms of feeling closer to God. I tear up more when I hear a life-change, salvation-transformation story that we heard today than anything else I do spiritually. I <em>love<\/em> to worship God; I love to read the Word; I love to pray; but I tell you\u2014something happens to my soul when I hear what God can do in a person\u2019s life, like we heard today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I\u2019ve always said, for years\u2014I say it this way: \u201cI\u2019m a sucker for a redemption story.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>We all are.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We are, because we\u2019ve experienced redemption. We know the difference it\u2019s made in our life; and to hear about what God is doing in someone else\u2019s life\u2014I always think of Luke 15. I think it\u2019s verse 10, where Jesus says \u201cThere is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.\u201d When somebody turns from following their own appetites, their own desires, their own passions, and turns to Jesus and says, \u201cI surrender to You,\u201d\u2014they throw a party in heaven. I sometimes think we should be throwing more parties here, on earth, to celebrate that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>We used to do that with our kids when they came to faith but, also, when other people came to faith. We would have a birthday cake and say: \u201cThe angels in heaven are celebrating,\u201d and \u201cWe will too!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I think we underestimate the <em>joy<\/em> that passage is talking about\u2014it\u2019s fireworks! Here we are!\u2014July 4<sup>th<\/sup>\u2014it\u2019s fireworks!\u2014[Laughter]\u2014heavenly, eternal fireworks!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Celebrating!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We still have a lot to hear about from Jackie this week as we talk about the issue of identity and understanding what your identity really is. Let me remind listeners that Jackie has written a book called <em>Gay Girl, Good God<\/em>, which is a book we have in our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>Resource Center. You can order a copy when you go online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order at 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, our website: FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d Jackie\u2019s book, again, is called <em>Gay Girl, Good God<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSome of you have heard us talk, here on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, about the upcoming 2020 <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage cruise\u2014our tenth anniversary cruise. We\u2019ve got big plans; we\u2019re on the biggest boat we\u2019ve ever been on\u20145500 people, I think. We\u2019re either sold out or just right on the edge of being sold out. But there is one cabin we are not selling\u2014one cabin that we\u2019re going to give away to a <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listener.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOkay; here\u2019s how this works. Our team has put together a workout plan for your marriage for the next six or eight weeks. We\u2019ve got this workout schedule, where you and your spouse get together and do some relationship exercises. You can pick whether you want to do the cardio track to get your heart racing or you want to do strength building in your relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAll you have to do is sign up for the \u201cStronger Forever Summer Workout,\u201d here at FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. If you sign up, again no purchase necessary to enter. The contest began on July 1, 2019; it ends on August 30, 2019. Official rules can be found at FamilyLife.com\/StrongerForever. If you sign up, we\u2019re going to draw a name; and one couple will be selected to join us as our guests on the <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em> marriage cruise. We\u2019ll fly you to Ft. Lauderdale; we\u2019ll put you up in the hotel the night before the cruise; you\u2019ll be our guests on board the cruise, in February, on the tenth anniversary <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em> marriage cruise.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you can join us, again, tomorrow when we are going to hear from Jackie Hill Perry about the important subject of understanding our identity\u2014that goes for all of us. We\u2019ve got to make sure our identity is anchored in the right stuff. Jackie will talk about that tomorrow. I hope you can be with us for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:29:50"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["27.32M"],"filesize_raw":["28650549"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-305127.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-305127.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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her lifestyle, Jackie Hill Perry sensed that God was actively pursuing her. In 2008, she felt God speaking to her heart. Perry how her life slowly began to change.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-07-03.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>As a young woman, Jackie Hill Perry had what she calls a Damascus Road experience\u2014an encounter with God that caused her to realize she was going to have to follow Him and forsake the same-sex relationships she had been enjoying.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> So I called my girlfriend, and I told her what happened. I said: \u201cI love you. I <em>want<\/em> to be with you; but to serve God, I know I can\u2019t be with you.\u201d I <em>grieved<\/em> that relationship for a good year-and-a-half; because we were fine; we were good\u2014I was happy; I enjoyed her\u2014but I couldn\u2019t have her and God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Wednesday, July 3<sup>rd<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. Jackie Hill Perry joins us today to share how she came to understand that following Jesus meant \u201cThe world behind me and the cross before me.\u201d Stay tuned.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition. Is this a week where you normally shut down the normal schedule and get together with kids and do stuff?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes; it is. We are the family that does fireworks in the backyard, Bob.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Is that legal?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>It\u2019s legal.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>It\u2019s, now, legal in Michigan. And I am <em>always<\/em> fearful that someone will get hurt because\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>And nobody has ever gotten hurt, not yet.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes [under her breath].\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>But my oldest son is a pyrotechnic.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Is he?!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes; it\u2019s a little scary.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You do big fireworks?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Oh, yes! We do.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>One of the sons was shooting skyrockets\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>\u2014bottle rocket.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u2014bottle rocket. He had it with his one-year-old, who was shooting them off.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Okay; we\u2019re not sharing this story.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Oh, yes; maybe, we shouldn\u2019t share that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Nobody needs to hear this. [Laughter] It was dangerous, but nobody got hurt.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I just sit there and pray the whole time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Actually, it\u2019s not as bad as it sounds. We put it at the very back of the backyard. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes; we\u2019re safe.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>They light it, and everybody runs away. If it doesn\u2019t fall over, we\u2019re fine!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I remember that we had fireworks in our backyard one 4<sup>th<\/sup> of July. I think it was illegal, as I remember it. [Laughter] What I remember is\u2014my dad had nailed a pinwheel to a tree. Do you remember the pinwheels?\u2014that would sparkle? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>It\u2019d spin! Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>He went up; lit the pinwheel. And then, I remember him running away from it. I remember him saying, \u201cHere we come, Sergeant Donovan.\u201d Sergeant Donovan was the police sergeant in our city! [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Did he come over?!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>No; he never show up! But I have this memory of us breaking the law in our backyard on the 4<sup>th<\/sup> of July\u2014that time when we\u2019re supposed to be celebrating our nation\u2019s history, and patriotism, and all that. I remember us being law-breakers.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>And what does that have to do with our show today, Bob?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>It has to do with this season of the year and the fact that there\u2019ll be people, legally or illegally, doing fireworks this week in honor of the 4<sup>th<\/sup> of July. We don\u2019t recommend the illegal fireworks. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong><a id=\"_Hlk11419973\">No; we don\u2019t.<\/a>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> No; we don\u2019t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> No; we don\u2019t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That\u2019s right. We want to make sure we\u2019re on record with that. But we thought this week\u2014because it\u2019s a holiday week and listeners are out of their normal schedule\u2014a lot of them\u2014we wanted to re-air an interview\/a conversation that we had, back in March, with an author and speaker\/a remarkable young woman, whose name is Jackie Hill Perry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe wrote a book called <em>Gay Girl, Good God<\/em>. It tells her story, which we already heard a portion of it this week, where she talks about growing up in a home where she started to experience same-sex attraction when she was in high school\u2014decided to pursue that and act out on that\u2014and declared to her mom, \u201cI\u2019m gay\u201d; and lived with that for a couple of years.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs we pick up the conversation today, we come to the turning point in Jackie\u2019s life, where she recognizes: \u201cThat\u2019s not how God has called me to live,\u201d and \u201cI need to make a change.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Previous Interview]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> God had been pursuing me for a while; but it started to intensify around, maybe, early 2008, where it just seemed as if my convictions were increasing. There was this birthday party and my friend, Taylor, was there; Taylor was a Christian. Taylor gets up to, I guess, share some testimony about how God has been good to her; and she starts to weep and cry about God. It was the most confusing thing to me\u2014I was like: \u201cWhy is she so emotional about God? I really don\u2019t understand why He elicits this response out of somebody that\u2019s the same age as me.\u201d But my thought was: \u201cWhy doesn\u2019t He do that for me? Why am I so indifferent towards the idea of God that I wouldn\u2019t cry about Him?\u201d\u2014you know? I think me asking myself\u2014really, the Holy Spirit prompting those kinds of questions in my mind\u2014just wouldn\u2019t go away. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, I would be doing things with my girlfriend and be reminded of God\u2019s displeasure. I <em>felt<\/em> the distance. You know, we\u2019re born \u201cchildren of wrath\u201d; we are, \u201cby nature, enemies of God\u201d\u2014I didn\u2019t know those texts, but I <em>felt<\/em> it. I felt that me and God were not near\u2014that we were not intimate, that I did not love Him, and that I was not empowered to do what He wanted me to do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI called my cousin, Keisha, and I said: \u201cKeisha, I feel like God wants me, but I don\u2019t want Him. I don\u2019t know what to do about it. I just feel like I can\u2019t sin in peace. [Laughter] I\u2019m trying to enjoy my life; and He\u2019s messing with it by telling me how good He is, and how He loves me, and how He wants to be merciful. I don\u2019t want to hear all of that.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, a couple of months later, I was in my room\u2014it was 2008. I wasn\u2019t at church; I didn\u2019t go to churches, because I didn\u2019t like how Christians looked at me or acted when I was around. I <em>felt<\/em> as if God had spoken to my heart in such a way, where I saw all of my sin <em>rightly<\/em> for the first time\u2014and it wasn\u2019t just lesbianism\u2014it was all of it. I saw\u2014oh \u201cFor the wages of sin equals death\u201d is reality. That\u2019s just not a verse\u2014that\u2019s right now; that\u2019s today; that\u2019s this moment. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI started to think about all of my sin and its consequences. To me, it seemed as if none of it was worth it. You know, it\u2019s just like: You\u2019re doing all of this for some joy that might last you 50 years?\u201d\u2014like, \u201cThat\u2019s dumb,\u201d\u2014I thought about that; but I also told God\u2014I said, \u201cBut God, I don\u2019t want to be straight,\u201d because Him calling me to Himself felt like that was synonymous with being heterosexual. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI, again, felt as if God was saying: \u201cJust love Me; serve Me; Get to know Me.\u201d I knew, for a fact, that I could not stop sinning on my own\u2014I told God\/I said, \u201cI know I can\u2019t do this by myself, but I know enough about You to know that You\u2019ll help me.\u201d I didn\u2019t have words for that\u2014I didn\u2019t know it was repentance. I didn\u2019t know that I was seeing my sin as worthless and being\/and willing to turn from it. Nor did I know it was faith\u2014that I was now seeing Jesus in His glory, and seeing that He was the only One worthy of my affections, and the only One able to save me and keep me; but that\u2019s what it was\u2014it was repentance and faith in that moment.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow! You talk about this kind of being in church and being aware of these things. Was there something you <em>heard<\/em> that caused you to go, \u201cI got to reconsider what I\u2019ve been building my life around\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> No; I hadn\u2019t been to church. It really was a random kind of thing. It was a Damascus moment, where it\u2019s like God just interrupted my life\u2014placed Himself in my world in a way that I could not deny Him any longer. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And so what happened?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I called my friend, who was the\u2014I only knew\u2014there was only two Christians I trusted, and so she was the second one.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wait; what made you trust them?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> They loved me like Jackie. I felt like <em>most<\/em> Christians that I came in contact with\u2014all they saw was my gayness and not who I was. They treated me like a <em>gay<\/em> person instead of a <em>person<\/em>. You know, maybe there was this pressure of not knowing what to do with me\u2014this fear of \u201cAm I supposed to evangelize to her?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEven my cousin, Keisha, like when she would call me and we would talk, she would actually ask me about my day. We didn\u2019t have to go to Leviticus. [Laughter] She didn\u2019t have to remind me, \u201cYou know you\u2019re going to hell; right?\u201d\u2014[Laughter]\u2014she didn\u2019t do that. I think that\u2019s why she was one of the <em>first<\/em> people I called when God did start dealing with me, because I felt like she treated me like a human being. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think, post conversion, I called my friend; and I told her what happened, because I had to break up with my girlfriend now. I knew that would be a <em>really<\/em> difficult thing to do\u2014something that I didn\u2019t want to do\u2014but something I knew I had to, so she just encouraged me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI called my girlfriend, and I told her what happened\u2014I said: \u201cI love you. I <em>want<\/em> to be with you; but to serve God, I know I can\u2019t be with you.\u201d I <em>grieved<\/em> that relationship for a good year-and-a-half; because we were fine; we were good\u2014I was happy; I enjoyed her. We probably would have moved in together\u2014all that type of stuff\u2014but I couldn\u2019t have her and God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And how did she respond?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Crying, tears\u2014she was broken, because it was random\u2014I was just with her the day before. It was nothing that she would have foresaw, but it had to happen.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I hear your story, and I think of so many similarities. I was 18 years old, dating a guy\/having sex, but I had the same encounter with Jesus\u2014of having a conversation with Him and saying: \u201cI\u2019m tired of playing this game. I\u2019m going to follow You, and I\u2019m going to give You <em>all<\/em> of me. I\u2019ll do whatever You want me to do, go wherever You want me to go: break up with my boyfriend\u2014I\u2019m Yours\u2014totally all-in Yours.\u201d It\u2019s that transformation instantly: \u201cIf I\u2019m all Yours, I\u2019ll do whatever You want.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I love that God does that\u2014whether we\u2019re in a heterosexual relationship, a homosexual relationship\u2014God wants <em>all<\/em> of us. He\u2019s a jealous God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes; yes. It\u2019s reminiscent of how He does His disciples in the gospels\u2014it\u2019s always, you know, \u201cLeave all that; follow Me.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Everybody\u2019s got to let something go.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I tell you what\u2014I want to be the person that somebody, that decides to change their life, calls. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>That\u2019s good.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>When you said you called these people because you trusted them, there\u2019s so many people you <em>couldn\u2019t<\/em> call\u2014nobody could call\u2014because they look at the sin or they look at the person. I thought, \u201cMan, I want everybody listening right now to say, \u2018I want to be the person, who is a follower of Christ, that looks in the eyes of people and loves them\u2014loves them so much that, when they need to make an important decision, I\u2019m the person they call because they feel <em>loved<\/em> by Jesus through me.\u2019\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes; and it wasn\u2019t that they were passive on sin either. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie: <\/strong>I knew their stances on sin; and I knew they believed that God was holy, and that sin was wrong, and that it should be resisted. Yet, that wasn\u2019t the <em>entirety<\/em> of our conversation; nor was that what our entire friendship or relationship was built on\u2014was them trying to convert me. You know, it wasn\u2019t, \u201cI\u2019m only present with you to fix you,\u201d\u2014it wasn\u2019t that. It was, \u201cI\u2019m present with you to love you,\u201d and I think that\u2019s the aim that Christians would do well to shift to.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Jackie, you know there are books, or blogs, or podcasts you could listen to today that would say: \u201cYou didn\u2019t need to leave your lesbian relationship. You can love God. This is how God\u2019s made you to be. You just need to accept that, embrace that and you\u2019re going against who you are.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes; yes. I would say that\u2019s a misreading of the Scriptures or a non-reading of the Scriptures. I <em>know<\/em> why people would want both, but I\u2019m grateful that God is so holy that He has a standard. Yet, at the same time, I\u2019m seeing that, you know, in Timothy\u2014where it talks about how people accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their passions\u2014I\u2019m realizing how we read the Scriptures, and when we try to justify particular sins, it really is a heart issue that becomes a hermeneutical issue. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think I want people to recognize: \u201c<em>Why<\/em> do you want both? Are you unwilling to believe that God is not better than that?\u201d because that\u2019s really what it is. You believe that a created thing is able to sustain you and satisfy you more than the One that you were created for, and that\u2019s a lie\u2014a lie that\u2019s existed since the Garden [of Eden].\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And how, in the world, did you discover that?\u2014because it\u2019s obvious you knew that, even before you understood the Scripture. You <em>knew<\/em>\u2014you said earlier\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Sort of, not to that depth.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, you said earlier\u2014it just struck me that you said: \u201cWhy would I do this sin that\u2019s going to make me happy for 50 years? That\u2019s stupid.\u201d I thought, \u201cEverybody does that, and they don\u2019t think it\u2019s stupid,\u201d and yet, you had the insight to go, \u201cThat\u2019s a wasted life,\u201d so there\u2019s this depth as you read the Scripture\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; you have a depth to your soul.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I think that was 2 Corinthians 4 coming to life, where the veil is being lifted and I\u2019m finally seeing the glory of Christ in a way that I\u2019ve never seen Him; because, when you see God for real\u2014<em>for real<\/em> for real\u2014how can you ever turn your eyes?\u2014how?! He\u2019s Him! He\u2019s better than everything that ever existed, or He wouldn\u2019t be God. So I think its just the Holy Spirit showed me what was <em>always<\/em> there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So now, you\u2019re not tempted?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I\u2019m tempted; of course, I am\u2014I\u2019m in the flesh!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, you just said you\u2019ve seen\u2014the veil\u2019s been lifted\u2014come on.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Right; the difference isconversion has allowed me to have the <em>power<\/em> to say, \u201cNo,\u201d to my sin because the same Spirit that rose Jesus from the dead is in me. But He\u2019s also changed my heart and my affections, where now I\u2019m a new creature that, when tempted, I recognize that the things I\u2019m tempted by are not better than what I love or Who I love. I might still want it, but I want God <em>more<\/em>!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What would you say to that person? What would you have said if\u2014you know \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPsalm 139: \u201cGod knit me together in my mother\u2019s womb. I\u2019m fearfully and wonderfully made,\u201d\u2014would you ever say that: \u201cGod made me like that. He made me with a same-sex attraction\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> No; God made us in His image\u2014for sure, we are image-bearers. Our bodies are a good thing\/our minds\u2014the things that we are able to do for sure\u2014but our sin is something that we\u2019ve inherited from Adam. I wouldn\u2019t ever want to blame God for something like that\u2014you know, [Adam speaking] \u201cThe woman You gave me...\u201d I wouldn\u2019t want to blame God for my sin. But I also would say: \u201cWell, that\u2019s why God, in the New Testament\u2014and really, through the Scriptures\u2014is saying: \u2018Be born again. Let\u2019s start you over and make you someone who is new.\u2019\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So how did your mom find out\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> \u2014that I was a Christian? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and how did she take the news?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> [Laughter] We worked together. I went in her office and I said, \u201cHey mom, I\u2019m not going to be gay anymore.\u201d I didn\u2019t know how to phrase it; I would never phrase it that way now. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What would you say now?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I would say, \u201cI love Jesus now,\u201d\u2014I would change the phrasing\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What did she say?!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> \u2014I was 19; I didn\u2019t know what else to say. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe said \u201cOh, okay.\u201d I was like, \u201cNo; seriously, I gave my life to Jesus; and I\u2019m going to like follow Him.\u201d She said, \u201cWell, that\u2019s nice\u201d; because she didn\u2019t believe me. It was just kind of like\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cWe\u2019ll see.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cWe\u2019ll see.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think what started to change her <em>mind<\/em> was when I started to respect her\u2014like I started to do what she said when she wanted me to do it. I started to go to church. I stopped coming home high; I stopped lying to her. I still had my issues, for sure; I was still a very new Christian, so I didn\u2019t respect her 24\/7. I started cleaning up my room. I just think those small character changes were like, \u201cHmm, somethings different about her.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> After you were converted, did you go, \u201cOh, now, I like boys!\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> <em>No<\/em>; they were gross for a long time. [Laughter] I wasn\u2019t focused on that. I was honestly really content with being single, because it seemed like it would be more of a cross to carry to be with a man than it would to be a single woman.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Did you assume that you would probably be single the rest of your life?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I figured I would get married; but I was afraid of what that would actually look like, because it seemed like it would be definitely a challenge, as it was and is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> So the first thing Jesus started to change in your life wasn\u2019t your sexuality?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> No! God was gracious to <em>immediately<\/em> get me connected to a group of believers, because I didn\u2019t know I needed church. I had a friend, who invited me to this church six days after I repented. I went to the church, and I had this exchange with a woman at the church that was significant to me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI walked in; and I had my friend\u2019s clothes on, because I had borrowed her clothes because I was like: \u201cYou know, I don\u2019t have time for Christians looking at me crazy because I\u2019m sagging. [Laughter] So let me wear your flats.\u201d [Laughter] Those were really uncomfortable to just wear flats all of a sudden. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI went in and this woman named Alisa\u2014she came up to me and said \u201cHey, what\u2019s your name?\u201d I said \u201cJackie.\u201d She looked me in my eyes, and she nodded: \u201cJackie. Nice to meet you, Jackie.\u201d I was like, \u201cWow, she wants to remember my name.\u201d I don\u2019t remember the sermon. I just remember her personalizing me and wanting to take hold of my name so that, when I do come back, she knew what to say.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Jackie, there are people tuned in today who still love their sin and are still looking at it and going, \u201cI don\u2019t think God\u2019s greater than the joy and pleasure I\u2019m getting from getting high,\u201d or \u201c\u2026from immorality,\u201d or from whatever. It may not be getting high and immorality\u2014it may be success. There are all kinds of things that could be ensnaring and trapping people. What would you say to them?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I think you could be honest with God about that. To me, that\u2019s the same as: \u201cGod, I don\u2019t believe. Help my unbelief.\u201d At the root of it is unbelief: \u201cI don\u2019t believe that You are who You say You are. I do believe that the tree [of the knowledge of good and evil] is good for food. I do believe that the tree is desired to make one wise. I don\u2019t believe that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. I don\u2019t believe that You are the bread of life. I want these other things to satisfy me and feel me up.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think, one, being willing to be honest with God and take the <em>risk<\/em> of faith. Take the risk that He really is all that He says that He is; because, at the end of the day, we know we won\u2019t all live long; we don\u2019t have that much time here. I think I would just push them to think higher\u2014to not think as earthly\u2014and to confess that to God, and trust, and wait and see what He can do with your heart if you give it to Him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I remember walking up to a speaker\/author, who spoke to a bunch of guys. I did the typical: \u201cI have a friend, who struggles with...\u201d\u2014I literally did that\u2014I said, \u201cI have a friend, who, when he travels, sometimes looks at porn in the hotel rooms he stays in.\u201d I said, \u201cWhat would you say to that guy?\u201d I\u2019ll never forget\u2014Larry Crabb said\u2014I said, \u201cWhy does that guy do that?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnn and I had been married ten years at this point; and I\u2019m in ministry, and I\u2019ve got this secret. I\u2019m asking him this; and Larry said just about what you said\u2014he said: \u201cThat guy believes God is not enough,\u201d and \u201cGod\u2019s not immediate, and this is\u201d; so he\u2019s going after a pleasure he can <em>feel<\/em>. But He doesn\u2019t know God well enough to know God is enough.\u201d I remember leaving, going: \u201cI don\u2019t know God well enough. It\u2019s like I have this idea of God and I preach it, but I don\u2019t <em>know<\/em> the beauty of the face of God that I would go after something else that\u2019s temporary and will not satisfy.\u201d That\u2019s just what you discovered.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think, too, as I listen to you\u2014I think the theme today is Jesus and His redemption of our lives. He is the highlight for all of us. In your story, He is the One that\u2019s changed <em>everything<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jackie: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[Studio]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What a remarkable story, as we are hearing this week, Jackie Hill Perry share about God\u2019s redeeming work in her life. And her understanding that her identity is not shaped by her desires. In fact, she\u2019s going to explore that more as we continue the conversation this week. But listening back to this, it is so encouraging to hear the power of God at work in somebody\u2019s life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Don\u2019t you love her honesty? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I do!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>It makes me so encouraged that God uses our story to inspire other people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I love life-change stories. It might be my number-one spiritual pathway in terms of feeling closer to God. I tear up more when I hear a life-change, salvation-transformation story that we heard today than anything else I do spiritually. I <em>love<\/em> to worship God; I love to read the Word; I love to pray; but I tell you\u2014something happens to my soul when I hear what God can do in a person\u2019s life, like we heard today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I\u2019ve always said, for years\u2014I say it this way: \u201cI\u2019m a sucker for a redemption story.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>We all are.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We are, because we\u2019ve experienced redemption. We know the difference it\u2019s made in our life; and to hear about what God is doing in someone else\u2019s life\u2014I always think of Luke 15. I think it\u2019s verse 10, where Jesus says \u201cThere is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.\u201d When somebody turns from following their own appetites, their own desires, their own passions, and turns to Jesus and says, \u201cI surrender to You,\u201d\u2014they throw a party in heaven. I sometimes think we should be throwing more parties here, on earth, to celebrate that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann: <\/strong>We used to do that with our kids when they came to faith but, also, when other people came to faith. We would have a birthday cake and say: \u201cThe angels in heaven are celebrating,\u201d and \u201cWe will too!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I think we underestimate the <em>joy<\/em> that passage is talking about\u2014it\u2019s fireworks! Here we are!\u2014July 4<sup>th<\/sup>\u2014it\u2019s fireworks!\u2014[Laughter]\u2014heavenly, eternal fireworks!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Celebrating!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We still have a lot to hear about from Jackie this week as we talk about the issue of identity and understanding what your identity really is. Let me remind listeners that Jackie has written a book called <em>Gay Girl, Good God<\/em>, which is a book we have in our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>Resource Center. You can order a copy when you go online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order at 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, our website: FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d Jackie\u2019s book, again, is called <em>Gay Girl, Good God<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSome of you have heard us talk, here on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, about the upcoming 2020 <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage cruise\u2014our tenth anniversary cruise. We\u2019ve got big plans; we\u2019re on the biggest boat we\u2019ve ever been on\u20145500 people, I think. We\u2019re either sold out or just right on the edge of being sold out. But there is one cabin we are not selling\u2014one cabin that we\u2019re going to give away to a <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listener.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOkay; here\u2019s how this works. Our team has put together a workout plan for your marriage for the next six or eight weeks. We\u2019ve got this workout schedule, where you and your spouse get together and do some relationship exercises. You can pick whether you want to do the cardio track to get your heart racing or you want to do strength building in your relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAll you have to do is sign up for the \u201cStronger Forever Summer Workout,\u201d here at FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. If you sign up, again no purchase necessary to enter. The contest began on July 1, 2019; it ends on August 30, 2019. Official rules can be found at FamilyLife.com\/StrongerForever. If you sign up, we\u2019re going to draw a name; and one couple will be selected to join us as our guests on the <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em> marriage cruise. We\u2019ll fly you to Ft. Lauderdale; we\u2019ll put you up in the hotel the night before the cruise; you\u2019ll be our guests on board the cruise, in February, on the tenth anniversary <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em> marriage cruise.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you can join us, again, tomorrow when we are going to hear from Jackie Hill Perry about the important subject of understanding our identity\u2014that goes for all of us. We\u2019ve got to make sure our identity is anchored in the right stuff. Jackie will talk about that tomorrow. I hope you can be with us for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. 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