{"id":305123,"date":"2019-07-02T06:00:04","date_gmt":"2019-07-02T10:00:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/a-deliberate-rebellion\/"},"modified":"2019-07-02T06:00:04","modified_gmt":"2019-07-02T10:00:04","slug":"a-deliberate-rebellion","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/a-deliberate-rebellion\/","title":{"rendered":"A Deliberate Rebellion"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Writer and poet Jackie Hill Perry reflects on her youth and the circumstances that influenced her to consciously rebel against her upbringing and her God. Perry was 17 when she first decided to act on her feelings and experience homosexual relationships. After &#8220;coming out&#8221; to her mother, Perry couldn&#8217;t shake the feeling that God was relentlessly pursuing her. Now a born-again Christian, wife, and a mother of two, Perry tells how God is renewing her mind and her marriage.<br \/>\nShow Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tDownload the Stronger Forever ebook and enter for a chance to go on the FamilyLife&#8217;s Love Like You Mean It\u00ae cruise.\u00a0 https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/stronger<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Writer and poet Jackie Hill Perry reflects on her youth and the circumstances that influenced her to consciously rebel against her upbringing and her God.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-07-02.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:26:26","filesize":"24.21M","filesize_raw":"25382461","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2906,2896],"tags":[4130,4133,4129,4134,6667],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[3555],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-305123","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-becoming-a-christian","category-lgbt","tag-coming-out","tag-coming-to-christ","tag-homosexuality","tag-life-change","tag-teen-rebellion","cwp_profile-jackie-hill-perry","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/305123\/a-deliberate-rebellion","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/305123\/a-deliberate-rebellion","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"ElIxSZf4n7\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/a-deliberate-rebellion\/\">A Deliberate Rebellion<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/a-deliberate-rebellion\/embed\/#?secret=ElIxSZf4n7\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;A Deliberate Rebellion&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"ElIxSZf4n7\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-07-02.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-07-02.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>As a teenager, Jackie Hill Perry had given up on church, given up on God, and decided to embrace her feelings\/her attraction for members of the same sex. She kept all of this hidden from her parents.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> My mother actually found out because of\u2014we were in the car one day and there was talk radio on. They were having mothers and parents call in to basically describe: \u201cWhat were the signs of their children being gay?\u201d and all of the signs were me. That was the most awkward situation I\u2019ve ever been in in my life. I felt like I was being set up by some God figure somewhere.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, July 2<sup>nd<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I\u2019m Bob Lepine. What is it that led a gay girl to surrender her same-sex attraction and give her life to a good God? We\u2019ll find out from Jackie Hill Perry today. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition. One of the great things about a holiday week like this\u2014anymore when there\u2019s a holiday, it becomes a holiday week because a lot of people\u2014if you\u2019ve got a 4<sup>th<\/sup> of July holiday in the middle of the week\u2014they\u2019re going to take the whole week off and cash in on the holiday but build some vacation around it.\n\nWhat happens is\u2014you wind up with folks listening to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, who don\u2019t normally get to hear it, because, normally, they\u2019re not in their car during this time or whatever else. But here, on the holiday, their schedule is a little different; so they\u2019re tuned in. They\u2019re going, \u201cOh, what\u2019s this new program?\u201d\n\n<em>We<\/em> thought, this week, we ought to play for our listeners an interview that we did\u2014actually, this aired back in March\u2014with Jackie Hill Perry, who\u2019s the author of a book called <em>Gay Girl, Good God<\/em>. We have commented since then: \u201cThis was a powerful week of radio,\u201d when we aired this.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It was our first week of radio, as well; I don\u2019t know if you remember that. I don\u2019t know about Ann, but I was scared to death.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I was, too.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> To have Jackie in the studio\u2014wow!\u2014wow.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Her story is so compelling and inspiring.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It is.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>And she\u2019s such a grounded theologian\u2014very, very impressive.\n\nAnd, you know, one of the coolest people you ever want to meet. I always wanted to be that cool. [Laughter] You know, she\u2019s got the look\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014she\u2019s super wise.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes; it\u2019s amazing to hear her wisdom at such a young age.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019re going to play for you Part 1 of the interview that we did with Jackie Hill Perry. She is the author of the book, <em>Gay Girl, Good God, <\/em>which should tell you a little bit about where this story is going; because that\u2019s a part of her past and a part of how God\u2019s been at work in her life.\n\nWe started the conversation with her by asking about what her family of origin was like and what her childhood was like.\n\n[Previous Interview]\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> The way I phrase it is that my mother loved me well; my dad loved me sometimes. She was very present\/very loving\u2014raised me as best as she could by herself. My dad\u2014he was really inconsistent. He would be there for a year, be away for a year. But the weird\/confusing thing is that, when he would come back, he would always say, \u201cI love you,\u201d\u2014things like that. That didn\u2019t make sense to me. \u201cI don\u2019t know how you love me and you don\u2019t call me on my birthday. I don\u2019t know how you love me and you don\u2019t come to see me at school. I don\u2019t know how you love me and you don\u2019t even know anything that\u2019s going on in my life.\u201d I think that started to change how I saw men.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Were you looking for his approval?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I\u2019m sure I was. I don\u2019t know if I would\u2019ve used that word, but I think I just wanted his presence, you know; I wanted his nearness. I just wanted to be loved consistently by him\u2014not just in word\u2014but really in deed.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> When you were a little girl, and you\u2019re saying to your mom, \u201cWell, where\u2019s daddy?\u201d\u2014\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I might have asked that\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes?\n\n<strong>Jackie: <\/strong>\u2014but I think for most of my friends\u2014we didn\u2019t have our dads. That was just a normal thing for it to just to be you, your siblings and your mother. I don\u2019t even think I thought it was <em>strange<\/em> for him not to be present, but I did think it was <em>hurtful<\/em> for him not to still love me in light of him not being present.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Where were you growing up?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> St. Louis.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Where do you fit in the family order of things?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I have a brother who is 16 years older than me. I don\u2019t know what was going on in my mother\u2019s head. It must have been Providence. God was like, \u201cI want her to be here [even though] you have a 16-year-old. Then I showed up, and that was it. My brother\u2014he was almost out of the house when I was [born]; he went into the navy when I was three.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow; so a little like being an only child.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Definitely was an only child. He always said that I got Fruit Loops, and he got Corn Flakes. [Laughter] We had our mother in two different seasons of her life.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Was there a day\u2014or maybe it\u2019s still coming\u2014when you sort of had to deal with the father wound?\u2014absent. I mean, your story is very similar to mine, in terms of a dad\u2014even, siblings older\u2014my dad was never there. But there came a <em>day<\/em>\u2014and I was a teenager when it really sort of hit me\u2014like: \u201cI don\u2019t even know my dad. He was never there. There\u2019s a wound here.\u201d I <em>never<\/em> knew it until I was\u2014did that day happen for you?\n\n<strong>Jackie: <\/strong>I don\u2019t know. I think it was maybe before he passed away is when I started to really reckon with\u2014because I was older; I was 17\u2014so I started to think about the pain. I wanted\u2014it was interesting\u2014I wanted to reach out to him, and I wanted to talk to him. I wanted to hear him; but I thought to myself\u2014it\u2019s like, \u201cHe\u2019s supposed to call me. I\u2019m not supposed to be the initiator of this relationship.\u201d He ended up passing away seven days later. I\u2019ve always wondered if God was trying to somehow <em>reconnect<\/em> us before he left, but I was just unwilling to do that.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What were your views of God when you were growing up?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I went to Sunday school a lot, so I remember the pictures of Jesus with a bunch of sheep around Him. [Laughter] I figured He was good.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> He was a theoretical figure, you know. He was someone that they\u2014people told me about it. I knew some people believed and followed. I didn\u2019t have any beef with Him per se. It was just I wasn\u2019t willing to make Him <em>my<\/em> Lord. He seemed to require way too much for me to give.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You were conscious of that, even as a young person\u2014\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014that, \u201cThis is serious. This is not just something you do to please your mom, but this is serious business.\u201d\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes. My rebellion was deliberate. One, when you go to church, you hear so much truth that it really is a decision to, I think, rebel; but I was <em>intrigued<\/em> by Jesus and Christianity. I was reading books about hell; I was reading books about heaven; I was reading books about Jesus being a Jew\u2014at 11, you know. I\u2019m a reader, so I was reading all of this information, but it was just like, \u201cAh, I\u2019m cool on that, though.\u201d\n\nI think a lot of it was because I didn\u2019t know what Christianity <em>was<\/em>. I really thought that Christians were people who had amazing self-control and never wore jeans. [Laughter] I didn\u2019t know\u2014I had no idea that it was people who loved Jesus because God had did something in their hearts to give them an affection for Him. I didn\u2019t know that.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You said you rebelled consciously.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Were you a strong-willed, push-back girl from the get-go?\n\n<strong>Jackie: <\/strong>Yes. I still am. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I know you are.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes; I was. I just didn\u2019t like authority. I was just not a <em>fan<\/em> of anybody telling me what to do. [Laughter] In school and in whatever it was, I didn\u2019t want to. To me the commands of God seemed <em>ridiculous<\/em>. \u201cWhy would I die to myself? That sounds <em>dumb<\/em>! I <em>enjoy<\/em> sinning.\u201d That was my argument with my cousin, who was a believer\u2014it was, \u201cI\u2019m <em>enjoying<\/em> myself. I understand that God wants me to repent and believe. I don\u2019t want to. I don\u2019t know why everyone else <em>is<\/em>.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, I love that you don\u2019t play games.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> No.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I love that you speak the truth of what you\u2019re feeling.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; but you love that because you\u2019re not her <em>mother<\/em>. [Laughter] I\u2019m just thinking of <em>your<\/em> <em>poor<\/em> mom.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> She had a rough time. She didn\u2019t like me for a <em>long<\/em> time. She said, \u201cI don\u2019t like you, because you don\u2019t know who you\u2019re talking to.\u201d She was like, \u201cYou treat me like I\u2019m not your momma. I don\u2019t know what to do about it.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019m guessing it was a rough decade or more?\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t outwardly rebel until freshman year; then I became a believer a year after I was a senior\u2014so four years.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay! [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> In your book, you sort of divide your life up that way\u2014you know: \u201cWho I was\u201d\u2014talk about that\u20142006-2008, the first several chapters of your book. Who were you?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I think 2006, I was 17. I had concluded that the desires that I had noticed in myself, when I was four, was something that I wanted to pursue. I said: \u201cHey, you\n\nknow, let me start talking to girls. I know God doesn\u2019t like this, but I\u2019m just going to try it.\u201d So I tried it; I enjoyed it\u2014felt like it was the most natural thing for me to do. I did that on top of working hard to graduate. Then, when I graduated, that\u2019s when my dad passed away. I just <em>did<\/em> me\u2014whatever doing me was\u2014is what I did.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Now, was this undercover?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> \u2014as far as my sexuality?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; I mean, you\u2019re still going to church with your mom; right?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Oh, no! I stopped going to church when I didn\u2019t have to go anymore.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Alright.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> No; I was <em>outed<\/em> because of Myspace. I forgot that adults get on it. Myspace was very gay, if you will. My brother\u2019s friend saw it, and he told my brother and all of that.\n\nBut my mother actually found out because of a\u2014we were in the car one day, and there was talk radio on. The topic was\u2014they were having mothers and parents call in to basically describe, \u201cWhat were the signs of their children being gay?\u201d And all of the signs were me. That was the most awkward situation I\u2019ve ever been in in my life. I felt like I was being set up by some God figure somewhere. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, you\u2019re in the car with your mom.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I\u2019m in the car\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> \u2014and the topic is: \u201cCall in and let us know, \u2018How did you know your child was gay and what were the signs?\u2019\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWhy am I <em>here<\/em> at the same time?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What were the signs?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> The signs were\u2014like a random\u2014your child has a random best friend that you <em>never<\/em> met before but now they\u2019re <em>extremely<\/em> close. I think that was the <em>main<\/em> one that stuck out because my girlfriend at the time, I said was my best friend. She was over at my house every day; she spent the night <em>all the time<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> When you look back on that now, and try to dissect what was going on in you, what were you feeling?\u2014where did that come from? What conclusions do you draw today about that?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Well, I noticed that I liked girls in kindergarten\u2014that was before the sexual abuse; that was before me being cognizant of my father\u2019s absence. I think it can be common that people will blame abuse and blame fatherlessness on our sexual preferences.\n\nI think, for me, it was, first and foremost, sin\u2014I think I had inherited sin from Adam that was manifesting in a different way. I think my abuse and my fatherlessness made it make more sense for me to choose it because it\u2019s like: \u201cMen aren\u2019t trustworthy. Men don\u2019t keep their word. Men objectify women, but women don\u2019t do that. My mother doesn\u2019t do that; my aunts don\u2019t do that.\u201d I think I was just coming up with subconscious conclusions about men and women in my mind.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Take us back to when you\u2019re in the car with your mom.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> How did that conversation go, and what happened?\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> She turned the radio down and turned to me and she said, \u201cIs that you?\u201d I said, \u201cYes,\u201d and she said, \u201cI knew it.\u201d I just started to cry. I cried because I felt exposed. I felt\u2014yes, I just felt <em>out<\/em>. I knew it was disappointing to her in many ways. She just said, \u201cAlright. Well, we\u2019ll talk about it later.\u201d [Laughter]\n\nWhen we did talk about it, it wasn\u2019t some deep talk. It was just kind of like, \u201cI\u2019m going to treat you like I treated your brother.\u201d What she meant by that is: \u201cThere\u2019s no more girls spending the night over here. There\u2019s no more girls, you know, being in your room by yourself.\u201d I think my mother felt betrayed, and she felt disrespected.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The circumstances around your abuse\u2014\n\n<strong>Jackie: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014what was that?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I <em>don\u2019t<\/em> remember the age\u2014I know four to six\u2014something like that. I was over at a family friend\u2019s house. There was a guy\u2014he wasn\u2019t an adult\u2014he was maybe 12 or 13 or 14\u2014I\u2019m not sure. At the time, I didn\u2019t know it was molestation\u2014I just was doing what he told me to do\u2014until I was watching Oprah, when I was like 13, and this lady was talking about her abuse. She used the word, \u201cmolestation.\u201d What she described was what happened to <em>me<\/em>. I was like, \u201cOh, that was sexual abuse.\u201d I had no idea. it made <em>sense<\/em> why things triggered me like they did.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> As a mom, now, yourself\u2014\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes. I\u2019m very hyper-vigilant, for sure.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Would you say to moms, \u201cYou need to be hyper-vigilant\u201d?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I think you do, especially around family.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What are you doing? What would you recommend to other moms?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> There\u2019s no spending the night for me. I\u2019m already preparing my daughter in the sense of talking to her about what people can and cannot do\u2014preparing her to be honest with me if anybody does anything that makes her feel uncomfortable. I\u2019m <em>aware<\/em> of whose home I allow her to be in when I\u2019m not present. I\u2019m praying a lot\u2014you know, \u201cGod\u201d\u2014I believe the Holy Spirit will let me know\u2014like, \u201cGod, if there\u2019s something off about a person that I think I should trust, let me know.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> When you say, \u201cNo spending the night,\u201d is that going to carry on into junior high\/high school?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> For me, yes; <em>unless<\/em> there would have to be some type of boundaries or something, because there are some families that I <em>do<\/em> trust in that they would be present in the room\u2014like I have a friend named Melody. She\u2019s allowed her daughter to have slumber parties, but only in her home; and they are present in the room.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We used to have fights about this, as we raised our boys.\n\n<strong>Jackie: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Your antennae is like Ann\u2019s antennae. I was the guy; I was the dad, going, \u201cOh, come on! There\u2019s no <em>big<\/em> deal. Let them\u2026\u201d Ann was always\u2014because there\u2019s a similar story here\u2014and she <em>knew<\/em> and she was right\u2014you\u2019re both right; I was <em>wrong<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think, because I have\u2014my very earliest memories were of being exposed to pornography, and then, abuse came along with that. At the time, you don\u2019t even know it\u2019s abuse, because it\u2019s just part of your life\u2014\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes, yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014but later, as I became an adult and having children, I would say my kids felt like, \u201cWhat is her <em>deal<\/em>?\u201d\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It\u2019s that protective mom\u2019s heart that\u2019s wanting to guard their own hearts.\n\n<strong>Jackie: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yet, I think sometimes they felt like I was a little <em>extreme<\/em>. Like our one son said, \u201cI would go into a public restroom and mom would be thinking: \u2018Now <em>listen<\/em>, don\u2019t talk to anybody. Don\u2019t\u2026\u2019\u201d\u2014you know? I\u2019m giving them this whole spiel. So yes, I think that we need to be protective.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> And it\u2019s the people we <em>know<\/em>. Most people are hurt and abused by people we <em>know<\/em>, not random strangers; so that concerns me.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Do you think there\u2019s any connection between that experience and how you acted out, later on?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Honestly, I experienced more of the fruits of the abuse in my marriage, I think, than I did <em>then<\/em> just because, now, I\u2019m married to a man, who\u2014when I used to believe that men were objectifying. There is a constant disconnect that I have to make between <em>him<\/em> and my abuser.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; so how does that play out?\u2014because, again, boom, I\u2019m the husband that\u2019s like, \u201cThat was years ago. Come on. It can\u2019t be affecting our relationship.\u201d It is. So how did it affect yours?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I think it\u2019s hard, at times, for me to see intimacy as a good thing, as a safe thing and that\u2014to connect to my husband\u2019s words and consistency of character with this moment\u2014because it can feel as if, \u201cYou have loved me and you are kind; but in this moment, I still <em>feel<\/em> like maybe you are not being honest with it.\u201d You know what I\u2019m saying.\n\nI think counselling has been great. <em>Honesty<\/em> has been great between both of us. He has been <em>extremely<\/em> patient. My husband has the Holy Spirit; [Laughter] because the things that I have put him through, when it comes to that, would drive many men into sin. I think, for him, he\u2019s been willing to be as consistent as he can because he understands that consistency is my main issue. As he\u2019s been consistent, I\u2019ve been better.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; it\u2019s interesting to listen to you talk about this because\u2014not kidding\u2014last night, my wife\u2019s reading your book. I look over, and she\u2019s <em>crying<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m thinking, \u201cHow many people are being touched that deeply by your words?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cand your truth.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I know <em>she<\/em> was.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, I was going to say, too\u2014I think, as you\u2019re in a marriage, it\u2019s very intimate and it feels very vulnerable. For Dave to attempt to even hug me or pursue me, intimately, it would trigger me.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think, for all those years\u2014especially, when I was growing up, before I was married\u2014I became very controlling of men in the relationship. I thought, \u201cYou\u2019re not going to hurt me; but I will hurt you; and I will control you.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Tell them how you controlled them\u2014with sexuality\u2014that was your control.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; the way I would dress\u2014that you can\u2019t touch; the way I would pursue, and I would be the pursuer. I think it looks different in a lot of ways and, yet, it\u2019s coming from the same source\u2014from pain.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> For sure; yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019re talking to a lot of abuse victims. They\u2019re listening to this conversation, and they\u2019re hearing their story.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019re also talking to a lot of married couples, where this has been a challenge in their marriage. My thesis has always been that: \u201cWhen there is sexual abuse of a child, at an early age, that there is an inherent sense of guilt and shame attached to that; but there\u2019s also a sense of <em>pleasure<\/em> that\u2019s attached to that, and those get fused together in the heart and soul of a child.\u201d\n\nI have seen, particularly women, who are acting out, later in life\u2014I\u2019ve seen them either try to drown out the guilt and the shame by becoming promiscuous, or to try to drown out the <em>pleasure<\/em> by becoming repressed and even, in marriage, pulling back. They\u2019re trying to uncouple what\u2019s been fused together. Again, this is my armchair psychology.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I was going to say, \u201cYou\u2019re going deep, Bob.\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019ve talked to enough people, where I\u2019ve seen these two things coming together. I think the question in all of this: \u201cHow are you at a point where you are trying to tell yourself what\u2019s true and have the truth change what you feel and how you behave?\u201d\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes; I\u2019m so young as a person; I\u2019m still new in my marriage, but I think a lot of it is\u2014again, counselling has done some crazy stuff for me\u2014to have someone talk through my memories in my psyche in a <em>safe<\/em> way, but also in a <em>challenging<\/em> way, where I can\u2019t stay comfortable with thinking the same things. I think counselling, for me, has just really been, \u201cThis is a person that God is using to help renew my mind,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s one.\n\nI think, also, dialoguing with my husband has been one of the ways we can work through stuff. It\u2019s like: \u201cWhen I do this, how does it make you feel? What thought comes to your head?\u201d Or me telling him, \u201cSometimes, when you say things like this, it does this to me,\u201d instead of me just having all of these things in my mind, and him not knowing anything; and he\u2019s wondering why I\u2019m mad at him, and angry, and not washing any dishes or cooking him any food. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Ann, you were crying, last night, reading the book. It\u2019s been <em>decades<\/em>\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think that I was crying, not only about my own abuse, but crying for the brokenness and pain we struggle through, but also, the joy of redemption of what Jesus can do\u2014that\u2019s what I see in your story. It\u2019s miraculous and\u2014\n\n<strong>Jackie: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014something only God can do.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s a beautiful part of your book\u2014it\u2019s just the beginning of the story; it doesn\u2019t end there.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Even as I\u2019m looking at my wife, last night, crying, I\u2019m thinking: \u201cThere\u2019s a lot of people, whose story does end there\u2014they\u2019re stuck there.\u201d Yet, you met a God, that we\u2019re going to talk about\u2014we just started. Man, I\u2019m <em>so glad<\/em> you\u2019re so honest in that book.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Me, too.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> There are people, all over the world, going to be <em>weeping<\/em>; but they need the next part, you know: \u201cWhat does Jesus do? How does Jesus transform?\u201d That\u2019s what I can\u2019t wait to talk about.\n\n[Studio]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, we\u2019ve been listening to a conversation with Jackie Hill Perry\u2014Part 1 of that conversation. In fact, we\u2019re going to hear the rest of it this week\u2014just reflecting back on what <em>is<\/em> a remarkable story\u2014and one that I think needs to be repeated in our culture today; because this is a culture that\u2019s confused and a culture that is hurting because of that confusion. I think Jackie brings remarkable clarity into this moment.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think it\u2019s really important, too, for parents to listen to this and to be inspired by her story; because we, as parents in this culture, can be very fearful. There\u2019s always hope that God is working at all times.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I would add\u2014the honesty of her story is inspiring\u2014because it shows the brokenness; it shows the darkness, and yet we\u2019re just starting to see the light in our conversation with her. There\u2019s a <em>beautiful<\/em> redemption. She has both sides of that. I think that\u2019s why God has given her a voice in our culture.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> She tells her story in a book she\u2019s written called <em>Gay Girl, Good God, <\/em>which is a book that we\u2019ve got in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. I\u2019d, again, encourage our listeners\u2014this is a beautifully written book\u2014a compelling story. Get a copy of Jackie Hill Perry\u2019s book, <em>Gay Girl, Good God<\/em>. Go to FamilyLIfeToday.com to order, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com. The number to call is 1-800-358-6329\u20141-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nI mentioned, yesterday, the new workout program that our team has put together, here, at Family Life<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. This is your summer relationship workout package that our team has developed called \u201cStronger Forever.\u201d It\u2019s to help couples build strength or cardio in your marriage\u2014get your heart racing a little faster and build a stronger relationship.\n\nThere are three different tracks. You sign up for this; we\u2019ll send you the information on what your workout schedule will look like for your marriage. You can decide what your training regimen will be and how often you\u2019ll be doing things together, as a couple. We\u2019ll send you emails to regularly remind you of what you\u2019ve signed up for so that, again, the two of you can have some ways to connect and grow stronger together over the next\u2014I think we\u2019re doing this for six or eight weeks; right? Go to FamilyLifeToday.com and find out how you can receive the \u201cStronger Forever\u201d workout plan.\n\nHere\u2019s the kicker on the whole deal: when you sign up to do this\u2014one of you\u2014we\u2019re going to draw your name, and you\u2019ll be our guests on the 2020 <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage cruise. We\u2019ll cover the cost of flying you to the cruise, putting you up in a hotel the night before the cruise, cover the cost for your cabin on the cruise\u2014all of that is going to happen for one of you who sign up for the \u201cStronger Forever\u201d marriage workout plan over the next couple of weeks.\n\nThere\u2019s no purchase necessary to enter. The contest begins on July 1; it ends on August 30. The official rules can be found at FamilyLife.com\/StrongerForever. Do something really good for your marriage relationship this summer. Who knows?\u2014you might get an all-expense paid trip on the <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em> marriage cruise in February of 2020. Again, all the information is available at FamilyLifeToday.com\/StrongerForever.\n\nI hope you can be back with us, again, tomorrow. Jackie Hill Perry will be here again. We\u2019ll hear how she got to a point where she had to reexamine how she was going to respond to her same-sex attraction. I hope you can tune in for that.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\n<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\n\n1"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:26:26"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["24.21M"],"filesize_raw":["25382461"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-305123.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-305123.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f 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and poet Jackie Hill Perry reflects on her youth and the circumstances that influenced her to consciously rebel against her upbringing and her God.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-07-02.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>As a teenager, Jackie Hill Perry had given up on church, given up on God, and decided to embrace her feelings\/her attraction for members of the same sex. She kept all of this hidden from her parents.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> My mother actually found out because of\u2014we were in the car one day and there was talk radio on. They were having mothers and parents call in to basically describe: \u201cWhat were the signs of their children being gay?\u201d and all of the signs were me. That was the most awkward situation I\u2019ve ever been in in my life. I felt like I was being set up by some God figure somewhere.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, July 2<sup>nd<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I\u2019m Bob Lepine. What is it that led a gay girl to surrender her same-sex attraction and give her life to a good God? We\u2019ll find out from Jackie Hill Perry today. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition. One of the great things about a holiday week like this\u2014anymore when there\u2019s a holiday, it becomes a holiday week because a lot of people\u2014if you\u2019ve got a 4<sup>th<\/sup> of July holiday in the middle of the week\u2014they\u2019re going to take the whole week off and cash in on the holiday but build some vacation around it.\n\nWhat happens is\u2014you wind up with folks listening to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, who don\u2019t normally get to hear it, because, normally, they\u2019re not in their car during this time or whatever else. But here, on the holiday, their schedule is a little different; so they\u2019re tuned in. They\u2019re going, \u201cOh, what\u2019s this new program?\u201d\n\n<em>We<\/em> thought, this week, we ought to play for our listeners an interview that we did\u2014actually, this aired back in March\u2014with Jackie Hill Perry, who\u2019s the author of a book called <em>Gay Girl, Good God<\/em>. We have commented since then: \u201cThis was a powerful week of radio,\u201d when we aired this.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It was our first week of radio, as well; I don\u2019t know if you remember that. I don\u2019t know about Ann, but I was scared to death.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I was, too.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> To have Jackie in the studio\u2014wow!\u2014wow.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Her story is so compelling and inspiring.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It is.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>And she\u2019s such a grounded theologian\u2014very, very impressive.\n\nAnd, you know, one of the coolest people you ever want to meet. I always wanted to be that cool. [Laughter] You know, she\u2019s got the look\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014she\u2019s super wise.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes; it\u2019s amazing to hear her wisdom at such a young age.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019re going to play for you Part 1 of the interview that we did with Jackie Hill Perry. She is the author of the book, <em>Gay Girl, Good God, <\/em>which should tell you a little bit about where this story is going; because that\u2019s a part of her past and a part of how God\u2019s been at work in her life.\n\nWe started the conversation with her by asking about what her family of origin was like and what her childhood was like.\n\n[Previous Interview]\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> The way I phrase it is that my mother loved me well; my dad loved me sometimes. She was very present\/very loving\u2014raised me as best as she could by herself. My dad\u2014he was really inconsistent. He would be there for a year, be away for a year. But the weird\/confusing thing is that, when he would come back, he would always say, \u201cI love you,\u201d\u2014things like that. That didn\u2019t make sense to me. \u201cI don\u2019t know how you love me and you don\u2019t call me on my birthday. I don\u2019t know how you love me and you don\u2019t come to see me at school. I don\u2019t know how you love me and you don\u2019t even know anything that\u2019s going on in my life.\u201d I think that started to change how I saw men.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Were you looking for his approval?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I\u2019m sure I was. I don\u2019t know if I would\u2019ve used that word, but I think I just wanted his presence, you know; I wanted his nearness. I just wanted to be loved consistently by him\u2014not just in word\u2014but really in deed.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> When you were a little girl, and you\u2019re saying to your mom, \u201cWell, where\u2019s daddy?\u201d\u2014\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I might have asked that\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes?\n\n<strong>Jackie: <\/strong>\u2014but I think for most of my friends\u2014we didn\u2019t have our dads. That was just a normal thing for it to just to be you, your siblings and your mother. I don\u2019t even think I thought it was <em>strange<\/em> for him not to be present, but I did think it was <em>hurtful<\/em> for him not to still love me in light of him not being present.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Where were you growing up?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> St. Louis.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Where do you fit in the family order of things?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I have a brother who is 16 years older than me. I don\u2019t know what was going on in my mother\u2019s head. It must have been Providence. God was like, \u201cI want her to be here [even though] you have a 16-year-old. Then I showed up, and that was it. My brother\u2014he was almost out of the house when I was [born]; he went into the navy when I was three.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow; so a little like being an only child.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Definitely was an only child. He always said that I got Fruit Loops, and he got Corn Flakes. [Laughter] We had our mother in two different seasons of her life.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Was there a day\u2014or maybe it\u2019s still coming\u2014when you sort of had to deal with the father wound?\u2014absent. I mean, your story is very similar to mine, in terms of a dad\u2014even, siblings older\u2014my dad was never there. But there came a <em>day<\/em>\u2014and I was a teenager when it really sort of hit me\u2014like: \u201cI don\u2019t even know my dad. He was never there. There\u2019s a wound here.\u201d I <em>never<\/em> knew it until I was\u2014did that day happen for you?\n\n<strong>Jackie: <\/strong>I don\u2019t know. I think it was maybe before he passed away is when I started to really reckon with\u2014because I was older; I was 17\u2014so I started to think about the pain. I wanted\u2014it was interesting\u2014I wanted to reach out to him, and I wanted to talk to him. I wanted to hear him; but I thought to myself\u2014it\u2019s like, \u201cHe\u2019s supposed to call me. I\u2019m not supposed to be the initiator of this relationship.\u201d He ended up passing away seven days later. I\u2019ve always wondered if God was trying to somehow <em>reconnect<\/em> us before he left, but I was just unwilling to do that.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What were your views of God when you were growing up?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I went to Sunday school a lot, so I remember the pictures of Jesus with a bunch of sheep around Him. [Laughter] I figured He was good.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> He was a theoretical figure, you know. He was someone that they\u2014people told me about it. I knew some people believed and followed. I didn\u2019t have any beef with Him per se. It was just I wasn\u2019t willing to make Him <em>my<\/em> Lord. He seemed to require way too much for me to give.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You were conscious of that, even as a young person\u2014\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014that, \u201cThis is serious. This is not just something you do to please your mom, but this is serious business.\u201d\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes. My rebellion was deliberate. One, when you go to church, you hear so much truth that it really is a decision to, I think, rebel; but I was <em>intrigued<\/em> by Jesus and Christianity. I was reading books about hell; I was reading books about heaven; I was reading books about Jesus being a Jew\u2014at 11, you know. I\u2019m a reader, so I was reading all of this information, but it was just like, \u201cAh, I\u2019m cool on that, though.\u201d\n\nI think a lot of it was because I didn\u2019t know what Christianity <em>was<\/em>. I really thought that Christians were people who had amazing self-control and never wore jeans. [Laughter] I didn\u2019t know\u2014I had no idea that it was people who loved Jesus because God had did something in their hearts to give them an affection for Him. I didn\u2019t know that.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You said you rebelled consciously.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Were you a strong-willed, push-back girl from the get-go?\n\n<strong>Jackie: <\/strong>Yes. I still am. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I know you are.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes; I was. I just didn\u2019t like authority. I was just not a <em>fan<\/em> of anybody telling me what to do. [Laughter] In school and in whatever it was, I didn\u2019t want to. To me the commands of God seemed <em>ridiculous<\/em>. \u201cWhy would I die to myself? That sounds <em>dumb<\/em>! I <em>enjoy<\/em> sinning.\u201d That was my argument with my cousin, who was a believer\u2014it was, \u201cI\u2019m <em>enjoying<\/em> myself. I understand that God wants me to repent and believe. I don\u2019t want to. I don\u2019t know why everyone else <em>is<\/em>.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, I love that you don\u2019t play games.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> No.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I love that you speak the truth of what you\u2019re feeling.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; but you love that because you\u2019re not her <em>mother<\/em>. [Laughter] I\u2019m just thinking of <em>your<\/em> <em>poor<\/em> mom.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> She had a rough time. She didn\u2019t like me for a <em>long<\/em> time. She said, \u201cI don\u2019t like you, because you don\u2019t know who you\u2019re talking to.\u201d She was like, \u201cYou treat me like I\u2019m not your momma. I don\u2019t know what to do about it.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019m guessing it was a rough decade or more?\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t outwardly rebel until freshman year; then I became a believer a year after I was a senior\u2014so four years.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay! [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> In your book, you sort of divide your life up that way\u2014you know: \u201cWho I was\u201d\u2014talk about that\u20142006-2008, the first several chapters of your book. Who were you?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I think 2006, I was 17. I had concluded that the desires that I had noticed in myself, when I was four, was something that I wanted to pursue. I said: \u201cHey, you\n\nknow, let me start talking to girls. I know God doesn\u2019t like this, but I\u2019m just going to try it.\u201d So I tried it; I enjoyed it\u2014felt like it was the most natural thing for me to do. I did that on top of working hard to graduate. Then, when I graduated, that\u2019s when my dad passed away. I just <em>did<\/em> me\u2014whatever doing me was\u2014is what I did.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Now, was this undercover?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> \u2014as far as my sexuality?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; I mean, you\u2019re still going to church with your mom; right?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Oh, no! I stopped going to church when I didn\u2019t have to go anymore.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Alright.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> No; I was <em>outed<\/em> because of Myspace. I forgot that adults get on it. Myspace was very gay, if you will. My brother\u2019s friend saw it, and he told my brother and all of that.\n\nBut my mother actually found out because of a\u2014we were in the car one day, and there was talk radio on. The topic was\u2014they were having mothers and parents call in to basically describe, \u201cWhat were the signs of their children being gay?\u201d And all of the signs were me. That was the most awkward situation I\u2019ve ever been in in my life. I felt like I was being set up by some God figure somewhere. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean, you\u2019re in the car with your mom.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I\u2019m in the car\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> \u2014and the topic is: \u201cCall in and let us know, \u2018How did you know your child was gay and what were the signs?\u2019\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWhy am I <em>here<\/em> at the same time?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What were the signs?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> The signs were\u2014like a random\u2014your child has a random best friend that you <em>never<\/em> met before but now they\u2019re <em>extremely<\/em> close. I think that was the <em>main<\/em> one that stuck out because my girlfriend at the time, I said was my best friend. She was over at my house every day; she spent the night <em>all the time<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> When you look back on that now, and try to dissect what was going on in you, what were you feeling?\u2014where did that come from? What conclusions do you draw today about that?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Well, I noticed that I liked girls in kindergarten\u2014that was before the sexual abuse; that was before me being cognizant of my father\u2019s absence. I think it can be common that people will blame abuse and blame fatherlessness on our sexual preferences.\n\nI think, for me, it was, first and foremost, sin\u2014I think I had inherited sin from Adam that was manifesting in a different way. I think my abuse and my fatherlessness made it make more sense for me to choose it because it\u2019s like: \u201cMen aren\u2019t trustworthy. Men don\u2019t keep their word. Men objectify women, but women don\u2019t do that. My mother doesn\u2019t do that; my aunts don\u2019t do that.\u201d I think I was just coming up with subconscious conclusions about men and women in my mind.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Take us back to when you\u2019re in the car with your mom.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> How did that conversation go, and what happened?\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> She turned the radio down and turned to me and she said, \u201cIs that you?\u201d I said, \u201cYes,\u201d and she said, \u201cI knew it.\u201d I just started to cry. I cried because I felt exposed. I felt\u2014yes, I just felt <em>out<\/em>. I knew it was disappointing to her in many ways. She just said, \u201cAlright. Well, we\u2019ll talk about it later.\u201d [Laughter]\n\nWhen we did talk about it, it wasn\u2019t some deep talk. It was just kind of like, \u201cI\u2019m going to treat you like I treated your brother.\u201d What she meant by that is: \u201cThere\u2019s no more girls spending the night over here. There\u2019s no more girls, you know, being in your room by yourself.\u201d I think my mother felt betrayed, and she felt disrespected.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The circumstances around your abuse\u2014\n\n<strong>Jackie: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014what was that?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I <em>don\u2019t<\/em> remember the age\u2014I know four to six\u2014something like that. I was over at a family friend\u2019s house. There was a guy\u2014he wasn\u2019t an adult\u2014he was maybe 12 or 13 or 14\u2014I\u2019m not sure. At the time, I didn\u2019t know it was molestation\u2014I just was doing what he told me to do\u2014until I was watching Oprah, when I was like 13, and this lady was talking about her abuse. She used the word, \u201cmolestation.\u201d What she described was what happened to <em>me<\/em>. I was like, \u201cOh, that was sexual abuse.\u201d I had no idea. it made <em>sense<\/em> why things triggered me like they did.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> As a mom, now, yourself\u2014\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes. I\u2019m very hyper-vigilant, for sure.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Would you say to moms, \u201cYou need to be hyper-vigilant\u201d?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I think you do, especially around family.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What are you doing? What would you recommend to other moms?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> There\u2019s no spending the night for me. I\u2019m already preparing my daughter in the sense of talking to her about what people can and cannot do\u2014preparing her to be honest with me if anybody does anything that makes her feel uncomfortable. I\u2019m <em>aware<\/em> of whose home I allow her to be in when I\u2019m not present. I\u2019m praying a lot\u2014you know, \u201cGod\u201d\u2014I believe the Holy Spirit will let me know\u2014like, \u201cGod, if there\u2019s something off about a person that I think I should trust, let me know.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> When you say, \u201cNo spending the night,\u201d is that going to carry on into junior high\/high school?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> For me, yes; <em>unless<\/em> there would have to be some type of boundaries or something, because there are some families that I <em>do<\/em> trust in that they would be present in the room\u2014like I have a friend named Melody. She\u2019s allowed her daughter to have slumber parties, but only in her home; and they are present in the room.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> We used to have fights about this, as we raised our boys.\n\n<strong>Jackie: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Your antennae is like Ann\u2019s antennae. I was the guy; I was the dad, going, \u201cOh, come on! There\u2019s no <em>big<\/em> deal. Let them\u2026\u201d Ann was always\u2014because there\u2019s a similar story here\u2014and she <em>knew<\/em> and she was right\u2014you\u2019re both right; I was <em>wrong<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think, because I have\u2014my very earliest memories were of being exposed to pornography, and then, abuse came along with that. At the time, you don\u2019t even know it\u2019s abuse, because it\u2019s just part of your life\u2014\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes, yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014but later, as I became an adult and having children, I would say my kids felt like, \u201cWhat is her <em>deal<\/em>?\u201d\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It\u2019s that protective mom\u2019s heart that\u2019s wanting to guard their own hearts.\n\n<strong>Jackie: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yet, I think sometimes they felt like I was a little <em>extreme<\/em>. Like our one son said, \u201cI would go into a public restroom and mom would be thinking: \u2018Now <em>listen<\/em>, don\u2019t talk to anybody. Don\u2019t\u2026\u2019\u201d\u2014you know? I\u2019m giving them this whole spiel. So yes, I think that we need to be protective.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> And it\u2019s the people we <em>know<\/em>. Most people are hurt and abused by people we <em>know<\/em>, not random strangers; so that concerns me.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Do you think there\u2019s any connection between that experience and how you acted out, later on?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Honestly, I experienced more of the fruits of the abuse in my marriage, I think, than I did <em>then<\/em> just because, now, I\u2019m married to a man, who\u2014when I used to believe that men were objectifying. There is a constant disconnect that I have to make between <em>him<\/em> and my abuser.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; so how does that play out?\u2014because, again, boom, I\u2019m the husband that\u2019s like, \u201cThat was years ago. Come on. It can\u2019t be affecting our relationship.\u201d It is. So how did it affect yours?\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> I think it\u2019s hard, at times, for me to see intimacy as a good thing, as a safe thing and that\u2014to connect to my husband\u2019s words and consistency of character with this moment\u2014because it can feel as if, \u201cYou have loved me and you are kind; but in this moment, I still <em>feel<\/em> like maybe you are not being honest with it.\u201d You know what I\u2019m saying.\n\nI think counselling has been great. <em>Honesty<\/em> has been great between both of us. He has been <em>extremely<\/em> patient. My husband has the Holy Spirit; [Laughter] because the things that I have put him through, when it comes to that, would drive many men into sin. I think, for him, he\u2019s been willing to be as consistent as he can because he understands that consistency is my main issue. As he\u2019s been consistent, I\u2019ve been better.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; it\u2019s interesting to listen to you talk about this because\u2014not kidding\u2014last night, my wife\u2019s reading your book. I look over, and she\u2019s <em>crying<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019m thinking, \u201cHow many people are being touched that deeply by your words?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cand your truth.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I know <em>she<\/em> was.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, I was going to say, too\u2014I think, as you\u2019re in a marriage, it\u2019s very intimate and it feels very vulnerable. For Dave to attempt to even hug me or pursue me, intimately, it would trigger me.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think, for all those years\u2014especially, when I was growing up, before I was married\u2014I became very controlling of men in the relationship. I thought, \u201cYou\u2019re not going to hurt me; but I will hurt you; and I will control you.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Tell them how you controlled them\u2014with sexuality\u2014that was your control.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes; the way I would dress\u2014that you can\u2019t touch; the way I would pursue, and I would be the pursuer. I think it looks different in a lot of ways and, yet, it\u2019s coming from the same source\u2014from pain.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> For sure; yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019re talking to a lot of abuse victims. They\u2019re listening to this conversation, and they\u2019re hearing their story.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019re also talking to a lot of married couples, where this has been a challenge in their marriage. My thesis has always been that: \u201cWhen there is sexual abuse of a child, at an early age, that there is an inherent sense of guilt and shame attached to that; but there\u2019s also a sense of <em>pleasure<\/em> that\u2019s attached to that, and those get fused together in the heart and soul of a child.\u201d\n\nI have seen, particularly women, who are acting out, later in life\u2014I\u2019ve seen them either try to drown out the guilt and the shame by becoming promiscuous, or to try to drown out the <em>pleasure<\/em> by becoming repressed and even, in marriage, pulling back. They\u2019re trying to uncouple what\u2019s been fused together. Again, this is my armchair psychology.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I was going to say, \u201cYou\u2019re going deep, Bob.\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019ve talked to enough people, where I\u2019ve seen these two things coming together. I think the question in all of this: \u201cHow are you at a point where you are trying to tell yourself what\u2019s true and have the truth change what you feel and how you behave?\u201d\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes; I\u2019m so young as a person; I\u2019m still new in my marriage, but I think a lot of it is\u2014again, counselling has done some crazy stuff for me\u2014to have someone talk through my memories in my psyche in a <em>safe<\/em> way, but also in a <em>challenging<\/em> way, where I can\u2019t stay comfortable with thinking the same things. I think counselling, for me, has just really been, \u201cThis is a person that God is using to help renew my mind,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s one.\n\nI think, also, dialoguing with my husband has been one of the ways we can work through stuff. It\u2019s like: \u201cWhen I do this, how does it make you feel? What thought comes to your head?\u201d Or me telling him, \u201cSometimes, when you say things like this, it does this to me,\u201d instead of me just having all of these things in my mind, and him not knowing anything; and he\u2019s wondering why I\u2019m mad at him, and angry, and not washing any dishes or cooking him any food. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Ann, you were crying, last night, reading the book. It\u2019s been <em>decades<\/em>\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think that I was crying, not only about my own abuse, but crying for the brokenness and pain we struggle through, but also, the joy of redemption of what Jesus can do\u2014that\u2019s what I see in your story. It\u2019s miraculous and\u2014\n\n<strong>Jackie: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014something only God can do.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s a beautiful part of your book\u2014it\u2019s just the beginning of the story; it doesn\u2019t end there.\n\n<strong>Jackie:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Even as I\u2019m looking at my wife, last night, crying, I\u2019m thinking: \u201cThere\u2019s a lot of people, whose story does end there\u2014they\u2019re stuck there.\u201d Yet, you met a God, that we\u2019re going to talk about\u2014we just started. Man, I\u2019m <em>so glad<\/em> you\u2019re so honest in that book.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Me, too.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> There are people, all over the world, going to be <em>weeping<\/em>; but they need the next part, you know: \u201cWhat does Jesus do? How does Jesus transform?\u201d That\u2019s what I can\u2019t wait to talk about.\n\n[Studio]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, we\u2019ve been listening to a conversation with Jackie Hill Perry\u2014Part 1 of that conversation. In fact, we\u2019re going to hear the rest of it this week\u2014just reflecting back on what <em>is<\/em> a remarkable story\u2014and one that I think needs to be repeated in our culture today; because this is a culture that\u2019s confused and a culture that is hurting because of that confusion. I think Jackie brings remarkable clarity into this moment.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think it\u2019s really important, too, for parents to listen to this and to be inspired by her story; because we, as parents in this culture, can be very fearful. There\u2019s always hope that God is working at all times.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I would add\u2014the honesty of her story is inspiring\u2014because it shows the brokenness; it shows the darkness, and yet we\u2019re just starting to see the light in our conversation with her. There\u2019s a <em>beautiful<\/em> redemption. She has both sides of that. I think that\u2019s why God has given her a voice in our culture.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> She tells her story in a book she\u2019s written called <em>Gay Girl, Good God, <\/em>which is a book that we\u2019ve got in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. I\u2019d, again, encourage our listeners\u2014this is a beautifully written book\u2014a compelling story. Get a copy of Jackie Hill Perry\u2019s book, <em>Gay Girl, Good God<\/em>. Go to FamilyLIfeToday.com to order, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com. The number to call is 1-800-358-6329\u20141-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nI mentioned, yesterday, the new workout program that our team has put together, here, at Family Life<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. This is your summer relationship workout package that our team has developed called \u201cStronger Forever.\u201d It\u2019s to help couples build strength or cardio in your marriage\u2014get your heart racing a little faster and build a stronger relationship.\n\nThere are three different tracks. You sign up for this; we\u2019ll send you the information on what your workout schedule will look like for your marriage. You can decide what your training regimen will be and how often you\u2019ll be doing things together, as a couple. We\u2019ll send you emails to regularly remind you of what you\u2019ve signed up for so that, again, the two of you can have some ways to connect and grow stronger together over the next\u2014I think we\u2019re doing this for six or eight weeks; right? Go to FamilyLifeToday.com and find out how you can receive the \u201cStronger Forever\u201d workout plan.\n\nHere\u2019s the kicker on the whole deal: when you sign up to do this\u2014one of you\u2014we\u2019re going to draw your name, and you\u2019ll be our guests on the 2020 <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage cruise. We\u2019ll cover the cost of flying you to the cruise, putting you up in a hotel the night before the cruise, cover the cost for your cabin on the cruise\u2014all of that is going to happen for one of you who sign up for the \u201cStronger Forever\u201d marriage workout plan over the next couple of weeks.\n\nThere\u2019s no purchase necessary to enter. The contest begins on July 1; it ends on August 30. The official rules can be found at FamilyLife.com\/StrongerForever. Do something really good for your marriage relationship this summer. Who knows?\u2014you might get an all-expense paid trip on the <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em> marriage cruise in February of 2020. Again, all the information is available at FamilyLifeToday.com\/StrongerForever.\n\nI hope you can be back with us, again, tomorrow. Jackie Hill Perry will be here again. We\u2019ll hear how she got to a point where she had to reexamine how she was going to respond to her same-sex attraction. I hope you can tune in for that.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. 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