{"id":305033,"date":"2019-05-21T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2019-05-21T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/the-blessings-of-a-poured-out-marriage\/"},"modified":"2019-05-21T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2019-05-21T15:00:00","slug":"the-blessings-of-a-poured-out-marriage","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-blessings-of-a-poured-out-marriage\/","title":{"rendered":"The Blessings of a Poured Out Marriage"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>guest: Jonathan Pitts | Series: Emptied | Author Jonathan Pitts reflects on his marriage to his now deceased wife, Wynter, and the conflict that showed up early and often in their relationship. He recalls her telling him that her idea of a husband was a man who would spoil her like Richard Gere did for Julia Roberts in &#8220;Pretty Woman&#8221; and his idea of a wife was someone who would care for him like his mom did. Neither were right. Pitts tells how they learned that for marriage to work, both husband and wife have to empty themselves of &#8220;me&#8221; so that they can love each other better and become a united &#8220;we.&#8221;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Jonathan Pitts reflects on his marriage to his now deceased wife, Wynter, and the conflict that showed up early and often in their relationship.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-05-21.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:29:55","filesize":"27.41M","filesize_raw":"28736260","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2847,10442,2862],"tags":[4899],"podcast_series":[8277],"cwp_profile":[9536],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-305033","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-death-and-dying","category-death-of-a-spouse","category-understanding-differences","tag-tragedy","podcast_series-emptied","cwp_profile-jonathan-pitts","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/305033\/the-blessings-of-a-poured-out-marriage","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/305033\/the-blessings-of-a-poured-out-marriage","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"deuBep8G3Y\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-blessings-of-a-poured-out-marriage\/\">The Blessings of a Poured Out Marriage<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-blessings-of-a-poured-out-marriage\/embed\/#?secret=deuBep8G3Y\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;The Blessings of a Poured Out Marriage&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"deuBep8G3Y\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-05-21.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-05-21.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Early in his relationship with Wynter\u2014his girlfriend, who would become his wife\u2014Jonathan Pitts said something that, years later, he realized was just wrong.\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> We\u2019re 21 years old; I think, in a moment of weakness, where it\u2019s like an intimate conversation about the future, I just said to her, \u201cHey, it\u2019ll really be hard for me to love you if you ever get fat.\u201d [Gasps] I thought\u2014yes, yes; it was bad.\n\nThe good thing is\u2014once you grow up on the inner streets of the city of Baltimore\u2014it didn\u2019t phase her, not one bit. She was just highly offended and gave me a few choice words. It exposed this idolatry that I had, and this image-consciousness, and ugh!\u2014yuckiness.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, May 21<sup>st<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. When we\u2019re young, we still have a lot to learn about healthy relationships, and a lot to learn about how we give grace to one another when we blow it. We\u2019ll hear more about that today from Jonathan Pitts. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. We\u2019ve talked a little bit about this\u2014you\u2019re not both loud in conflict; right?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> My wife\u2019s a lot louder than I am, Bob\u2014a lot louder. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Have you gotten louder over the years?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, have I gotten louder? I don\u2019t know. Honey?\u2014I\u2019m getting pretty loud right now! [Laughter] I have my moments, you know; but she\u2019s a <em>fiery<\/em> little pepper pot over there.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m hearing these quiet women and I\u2019m like, \u201cOh, I wish I was that\u201d; but I\u2019m not. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Part of the reason I\u2019m asking is because we\u2019ve got Jonathan Pitts joining us, again, today. Jonathan, welcome back to <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em>\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Thanks for having me.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Jonathan is an executive pastor of Church of the City in Nashville, Tennessee. Jonathan is a speaker; he\u2019s a writer. He and his wife Wynter\u2014who, as we\u2019ve already shared this week, went to be with the Lord last year\u2014right before she went home, they wrote a book called <em>Emptied: Experiencing the Fullness of a Poured-Out Marriage<\/em>.\n\nYou are both loud?\n\n<strong>Jonathan: <\/strong>No; I\u2019m loud, and she preferred me not to be loud. [Laughter] She was, actually\u2014Wynter was really quiet, and she had very few words. When she spoke\u2014my sisters would describe it as, \u201cWhen Wynter would speak, you would listen; because if she spoke, she meant to speak, and it wasn\u2019t just rambling.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Your early relationship\u2014did conflict show up early?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; it showed up early and often in our early relationship. [Laughter] It typically looked like <em>me<\/em> trying to force a conversation and her trying to withdraw from that conversation. It was probably a conversation that needed to happen, but my tone was not one that was helpful to her.\n\nShe grew up, and her dad was a drug addict. She grew up with her mom and her grandmom in a house. Her mom and her grandmom both gave their lives to the Lord in 1979, the year before she was born. She grew up in a Christian home\/very warm environment\u2014inner city of Baltimore; lots of craziness going on around her home\u2014but in her home, it was warm. But there was no father figure in there; so even the nature of that voice for her\u2014it wasn\u2019t one that she was used to in marriage. It was something I had to learn\u2014to kind of bring my tone down.\n\nI grew up in a family\u2014twin brother, three sisters\u2014everybody\u2019s fighting and jockeying for position; you know? [Laughter] We had two very different environments; so that was a struggle, early on\u2014was just figuring out how to communicate well.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I love the honesty in your book. Immediately, I\u2019m like, \u201cThis is a couple that\u2019s going to let us in their marriage\u2014slamming doors, fights, the whole thing.\u201d\u00a0 The story, early in your marriage, where she got lost\u2014tell that.\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Wynter\u2014she wasn\u2019t a girl who was good at like following directions or even knowing where she was. In fact, she hated South Jersey, which is a rural part of South Jersey; because there\u2019s no streetlights, and there\u2019s circles, and all this stuff. She leaves because of a fight, and gets out of the house. The reality was\u2014she didn\u2019t know where she was going, so she has to call me for directions to get home. [Laughter]\n\nFor me, leaving wasn\u2019t an option. I think, for Wynter, it was kind of fight-or-flight kind of a deal. She grew up; her dad left, and that was one of the struggles she had, early in marriage; but it wasn\u2019t for me. I looked\u2014I watched my parents, who have now been married, 45 years, I think\u2014something like that. There\u2019s going to be intenseness there\u2014there\u2019s going to be all that\u2014but leaving\u2019s never an option.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> How did you work that out when one of you would kind of shut down? Wynter was more quiet, so she would get quiet. Did that frustrate you? How did you guys work that out?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Early on, it would frustrate me. I would just keep trying to assert myself and force myself\u2014and not like horrible ways\u2014but just not in a way that was mature. Even my intensity I talk with right now\u2014like I just have that about me, so I had to learn to temper that. The more I did, the more she would receive anything that I had to offer.\n\nShe also had to learn to kind of step up to the table, even when she didn\u2019t want to.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Open up.\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; we met in the middle.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The title of the book is <em>Emptied<\/em>. The big idea is that, for marriage to work, we have to go through this process\/this ongoing process of emptying the us\u2014not the us\u2014the <em>me<\/em>. Empty the <em>me<\/em> out of the relationship so that we can love one another better. In a moment like this, where there\u2019s conflict\u2014and one\u2019s walking out or the other\u2019s walking out\u2014that\u2019s where you have to pull back and go: \u201cWhere\u2019s the selfishness in that? Where\u2019s the <em>me<\/em> that is the problem?\u201d and \u201cHow do I empty that?\u201d\n\nWe\u2019re talking to people, who have been in conflict in the last 24 hours, who have, maybe, not recognized the <em>me<\/em> in the middle of that. What do they <em>do<\/em> when they\u2019re in those moments? How do you drain the <em>me<\/em> out so you can be emptied?\n\n<strong>Jonathan: <\/strong>The book is really based on Philippians 2:7\u2014it is, although Jesus was equal with God, He didn\u2019t take His equality with God as something to be grasped, but became a servant, humbled Himself to the point of obedience and death on a cross. It\u2019s kind of taken from this idea of Jesus\u2014who had <em>every<\/em> right to stay kind of up here\u2014basically comes down to meet somebody that didn\u2019t deserve to be met\u2014in us.\n\nThe idea is\u2014to be Christ-like is to get rid of <em>anything<\/em> that would be any reason or any excuse as to why we can\u2019t come down to meet in <em>any<\/em> relationship\u2014but specifically, in marriage, to meet our spouse. Honestly, the goal is emptying ourselves. We thought of a couple things we\u2019d be full of that would need to be emptied: The first was sin\u2014like sin that we brought into our marriage\u2014ugly sin\/just sin\u2014we\u2019re human; we all bring it in\u2014history, which we all bring in; and then expectations, which we all bring in.\n\nHow do you begin to empty yourselves of <em>those<\/em> things in order to be filled up?\u2014to be filled up with the Spirit?\u2014love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control, which God can\u2019t do if you\u2019re full of all this other stuff and all these reasons as to why you can\u2019t.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Talk to the person\u2014and it would probably be me\u2014[Laughter]\u2014that is going, \u201cI <em>want<\/em> to empty; I really\u2014I value what you\u2019re saying. I do want to empty myself and get rid of the me, and love her, and love <em>anybody<\/em> the way they deserve; but I <em>can\u2019t<\/em>. I just get stuck.\u201d How do I <em>empty<\/em> myself?\n\n<strong>Jonathan: <\/strong>Yes; well, first, it\u2019s like we end the book by talking about just this reality that you can only do it, looking at Jesus\u2014like looking at Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of your faith. You, literally, have to look to Him as the solution; because in terms of the world, we can all do marriage pretty okay; but to do what God\u2019s asked us to do and become a we?\u2014like that\u2019s not happening without Jesus.\n\nI would say, \u201cLeaning into Jesus, first and foremost\u2014it\u2019s the nature of the task we\u2019re being asked to do\u2014we can\u2019t do it alone.\u201d I would say, \u201cLean into God.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> One of your chapter titles is called \u201cGod\u2019s Kingdom Purposes.\u201d You say our marriages are about building God\u2019s kingdom. What does that mean? What does that look like?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> The reality of your marriage\/my marriage is\u2014it\u2019s not about us at all; it\u2019s all about God. It\u2019s His story that we get to participate in.\n\nOne of the things that Wynter and I\u2014not only in our marriage but, also, as we raised our kids\u2014is have this perspective that: \u201cOur marriage isn\u2019t about us. Our life isn\u2019t about us. Our kids aren\u2019t about us. It\u2019s all about God\u2019s purposes.\u201d When you do that, you actually begin to let go of some of the expectations that you have for you; because you realize you\u2019re not there for you in the first place. It changes your perspective just a little bit.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I have to tell you\u2014this has been one of those \u201cah-ha\u2019s\u201d for me. You\u2019d think, after almost 40 years of marriage, I\u2019d have gotten this quicker. The first phase of our marriage, I was thinking, \u201cOkay; am I happy?\u201d And then I recognized the Bible doesn\u2019t ask that question; it says: \u201cIs your wife happy? Are you serving her? Are you emptying yourself and serving her?\u201d I spent a lot of time thinking, \u201cIf what I am doing is making Mary Ann happy, then God is pleased.\u201d\n\nAnd then, all of a sudden, I woke up and went: \u201cNo; the real question is\u2014not if I\u2019m happy or if she\u2019s happy\u2014but: \u2018Is God happy? Are we living our marriage so that, at the end of the day, He is going, \u2018\u201dI am pleased with what\u2019s going on here\u201d?\u2019\u201d Sometimes, Him being pleased means one of the two of us is not happy; but ultimately, if we both agree that\u2019s what we want to make happen\u2014we <em>want<\/em> God to be happy with our marriage\u2014so that brings both of us back into alignment.\n\nWhen things are out of alignment, we can say: \u201cOkay; God\u2019s not pleased with us being out of alignment, because He wants oneness in our marriage. How do we recalibrate so that <em>He\u2019s<\/em> pleased with what\u2019s going on here?\u201d\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; I think it takes it back to purpose. If you think about the Scripture that says, \u201cFor the joy set before Him, He endured the cross,\u201d\u2014like Jesus didn\u2019t come to just hang out; He had a purpose in coming to earth. \u201cFor the joy set before Him, He endured the cross,\u201d\u2014He went through all the things He had to go through in order to accomplish the purpose that He came for.\n\nI think the same is true in marriage\u2014like if we have this perspective\u2014that we\u2019re not looking for our own happiness; our spouse isn\u2019t looking for their own happiness\u2014we\u2019re both looking for joy that comes with the purpose of serving whatever purpose God\u2019s given us, then it gives us more energy for the struggle; because there is struggle involved. It\u2019s going to come with God\u2019s grace, but it ends with joy. Right now, I don\u2019t look at my book; I don\u2019t look at my marriage; I don\u2019t look at what we had\u2014and think about what\u2019s ended. I think about the joy that God gave us in the struggle, working through, day by day. We were doing that until the end.\n\nThinking about God\u2019s purpose will change your perspective on anything\/everything else. It will diminish the <em>me<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And what conflicts with that\u2014that <em>me<\/em> that\u2019s in us\u2014comes from patterns from the past\/comes from our own flesh that wars. You recognized this, early on, when you went out for doughnuts, back when you were dating. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Krispy Kreme<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> was a <em>thing<\/em> when we were in college. We went to Drexel University in Philadelphia, and the closest Krispy Kreme was in Wilmington, Delaware. It was probably about an hour\u2019s drive, a little less than that. We drive down to Wilmington to get Krispy Kreme. We get there, and we get doughnuts.\n\nShe says, \u201cDo you want to get some to go?\u201d And I\u2019m like, \u201cNo; I\u2019m good.\u201d Then she says, \u201cI\u2019m going to get a half dozen.\u201d She gets her half dozen; we make our way back to Philadelphia. We get to her apartment, and she goes to eat another doughnut. I\u2019m like, \u201cLet me have one of those.\u201d She\u2019s like, \u201c<em>No<\/em>.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWhat do you mean, \u2018No\u2019?\u201d She\u2019s like, \u201cNo; these are my doughnuts.\u201d\n\nIt was just funny, because it was our first argument. I was actually really offended that she wouldn\u2019t; but she still would say, \u201cI <em>asked<\/em> you if you wanted any.\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cYou didn\u2019t want any\u201d; exactly.\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> That was the earliest fight and indication that we were two very different people.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But it\u2019s also an indication that we bring patterns from the past. You can see, where, with her background, which you\u2019ve already described\u2014growing up in a tough place, without a dad, where maybe you keep protecting\u2014\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014self-preserve! [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014you protect what\u2019s yours!\n\nYou grew up in a family, where, \u201cHey, if it\u2019s here, it\u2019s <em>ours<\/em>.\u201d\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> My mom split a Snickers bar five ways for us. There were five of us, and we didn\u2019t have a ton of money; so she has stories of splitting a Snickers.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>That would make sense why you\u2019d want that doughnut.\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; exactly!\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So we bring patterns in; and then, we bring our own passions and the flesh that says, \u201cI want what I want.\u201d That\u2019s what\u2019s got to be emptied for there to be a oneness that happens in marriage; right?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; absolutely.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s interesting, too\u2014I don\u2019t know if this has anything to do with doughnuts\u2014but the comment in your book, where you said, \u201cIf you get fat\u2026\u201d I mean, you said the no-no of all no-no\u2019s to a woman.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Ohhh, Jonathan!\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I\u2019ve documented it in the book, and I\u2019ve said it on several interviews; so I might as well just come out and share it. What I realized, early on, in marriage for me is that the idolatry of this image of what I wanted my family to be. I grew up\u2014I\u2019m mixed\u2014my mom\u2019s German; my dad\u2019s black. I grew up in a neighborhood\/a town, where that wasn\u2019t normal; so I just wanted to fit in.\n\nWe\u2019re 21 years old; we\u2019re sitting on her apartment steps\u2014the same apartment, where she wouldn\u2019t give me a doughnut. Wynter was not, a day in her life, like over 120; she was just a tiny little girl. This is how you know like something is a stronghold\u2014it was a stronghold for me. We\u2019re sitting there; in a moment of weakness, where it\u2019s like an intimate conversation about the future, I just said to her, \u201cHey, it\u2019ll be really be hard for me to love you if you ever get fat.\u201d\u00a0 I thought\u2014yes, yes; I know; yes, it was bad.\n\nThe good thing is\u2014once you grew up on the inner-city streets of Baltimore\u2014it didn\u2019t phase her; not one bit. She was just highly offended and gave me a few choice words. It exposed this idolatry that I had, and this image-consciousness, and ugh!\u2014yuckiness.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Do you remember what she said when you said that?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I don\u2019t remember exactly what she said; it was pretty colorful. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But she didn\u2019t just go, \u201cOh, okay.\u201d\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Oh, no.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cOh, okay; I\u2019ll try not to.\u201d\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> In the moment, no\u2014not at all. In the moment, it became a big argument. Really, what would happen is\u2014you know, trust is one of those things that can be\u2014it\u2019s built up over years, but it\u2019s broken in a moment. What that did was\u2014it broke trust at a certain level. For a girl that like already struggled with, \u201cAm I loved?\u201d\u2014you know, her dad\u2019s gone\u2014like just the classic things that would happen for a girl that has a dad that\u2019s a drug addict, it leaves\u2014she was dealing with that.\n\nSo this man comes into her life, that\u2019s supposed to love her unconditionally, and he gives her the first condition. That would be something that would take, honestly, years for us to work out. For me, it was working out the idolatry in my own heart that would work itself out in little things, like monitoring what she\u2019s eating.\n\nWhen strongholds come\u2014and every listener has them, so they\u2019ll recognize what that is in their life\u2014when they come, like they come with actual, real, tangible things\u2014you might shut down, emotionally; you might say something; you might get a little funky attitude\u2014whatever it is. Whatever the strongholds are, they come; and they come with real implications.\n\nFor me, it was, \u201cHow do I trust God enough to let go of that thing\/my condition?\u201d For her, it was, \u201cHow do I trust this guy, again, after he basically told me he has a condition for loving me?\u201d It was <em>horrible<\/em>. The beautiful thing is\u2014I can document it, because we got completely past that; and my wife <em>knew<\/em> that I loved her unconditionally.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Here\u2019s the check I think all of us have to do; because in the back of our minds, \u201cAre there conditions?\u201d\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Do we withhold affection if <em>you\u2019re<\/em> not performing at the level that\u2019s acceptable to us? And it may not be weight-related; it may be: \u201cDid you do your chores right?\u201d or \u201cDid you take care of this?\u201d or \u201cDid you <em>say<\/em> the right things?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cAre you talking to me? Are you communicating?\u201d I think we all have those conditions that we\u2019re not even aware of. I think it\u2019s a <em>great<\/em> point\u2014that you\u2019re going deeper into it: \u201cWhy do I have those conditions?\u201d and \u201cWhere do they come from?\u201d Many of us never go <em>there<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What do we do to, first of all, see if there are strongholds like that in our marriage?\u2014if there are conditions that we, subconsciously, put on affection or love? And then, what do we do when we recognize that that\u2019s there?\u2014and yet, we still want it done?\u2014and \u201cI\u2019m not pleased if you\u2019re not acting, or talking, or being this way\u201d? How do I deal with that if that\u2019s the reality?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> For me, I remember Tony Evans, who\u2019s a mentor of mine, saying\u2014basically, saying that \u201cFaith is acting like God is telling the truth.\u201d When you face a moment, where you have to muster up faith, it\u2019s basically, \u201cAct like God is telling the truth.\u201d So, for me, acting like God was telling the truth on our marriage was that: \u201cIf I let go of this condition, and love my wife like Christ loved the church, that there is reward in that for me. God will give me everything that it takes to do that.\u201d\n\nFor me, practically speaking, it was like, when those moments would come\u2014you know, it\u2019s like what Paul\u2019s talking about\u2014basically, taking your thoughts captive. It\u2019s, literally, leaning in when I feel like leaning back. It\u2019s leaning in to love my wife more\u2014showing her affection even when like all of my flesh is telling me not to show her affection. It\u2019s kind of crazy, but strongholds can be like that. Acting like God is telling the truth, and leaning in when you feel like leaning back\u2014that\u2019s what I\u2019d say.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think what marriage does is\u2014our spouse can push buttons and trigger us into not even knowing a stronghold has been there\u2014\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> That\u2019s true.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014or even a lie has been planted in our head.\n\nI know that I have, some times\u2014my dad was a baseball coach\u2014and the whole baseball team was sitting in our living room. I had to walk through that, as a nine-year-old girl. I felt very awkward and very conscious of walking through there. I remember my dad\u2014it was very quiet\u2014and he said, \u201cBoys, this is my daughter; and when she starts filling out her clothes, she\u2019s going to be a looker.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Oh, wow.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And what does that say to <em>me<\/em>?\u2014is that: \u201cOh, if that doesn\u2019t happen,\u201d or \u201cIf I don\u2019t look a certain way, then I won\u2019t be attractive.\u201d So that was there.\n\nI had another time in high school\u2014I think I was 16\u2014and I heard a girl\/one of my friends talking to her mother. She didn\u2019t know I was in the room; but I heard her say, \u201cAnn is really ugly,\u201d\u2014this is what the daughter said to her mom\u2014and her mom said, \u201cI know; but at least, she tries hard.\u201d So, when Dave would tell me things like, \u201cOh, you look so good,\u201d I\u2019d say, \u201cNo; I don\u2019t!\u201d\n\nI think what you\u2019re talking about is\u2014even in your mind, we play things over and over in our mind about ourselves\/about our spouse. Sometimes, I think taking that thought captive and looking at it and asking: \u201cWhere did this come from? Is this true?\u201d and \u201cDoes God say this about me?\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I would hear Ann say\/make these comments. For probably a decade, I was so dense; I never realized, \u201cThat\u2019s a stronghold in her life.\u201d I was always\u2014initially, I was\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You\u2019d get mad at me.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014I\u2019d get mad. How\u2019s that for a <em>terrible<\/em> response? But I\u2019d be like, \u201cWhat do you mean, \u2018You\u2019re not pretty\u2019?! You\u2019re the most <em>beautiful<\/em> woman I\u2019ve ever seen. You know that; I know that. Let\u2019s move on.\u201d That was my response in my immaturity.\n\nNow, I look back\u2014there were symptoms, over and over, that she was crying out: \u201cThis is a stronghold. This is what I really believe.\u201d It\u2019s really cool now, as a husband, to come alongside and go, \u201cI can be the one to be the voice of God.\u201d I can go\u2014like you said\u2014go to the Word of God; say, \u201cThis is your identity,\u201d and speak it, and give life continually.\n\nThat\u2019s what you did, and that\u2019s what Wynter did with you. It\u2019s beautiful thing in a marriage\u2014to be able to say, \u201cNo, no, no; it\u2019s not true,\u201d in a gentle way\u2014because if you yell it\u2014that\u2019s what I did\u2014and now, it\u2019s more gentle, to say, \u201cNo; this is what\u2019s true.\u201d\n\nHopefully, that lands and demolishes the stronghold.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> If we have a spouse that doesn\u2019t do that for us, we have a Father that continually is speaking life into us through His Word. He <em>continually<\/em> tells us that we\u2019re fearfully and wonderfully made. If we didn\u2019t have the Word of God, I would feel so lost and empty; because He\u2019s continually encouraging us to listen to the truth of who He says we are.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, to get to where we\u2019re talking about getting unconditional love, and affirmation of others, and dealing with things from the past, you\u2019ve got to start by being emptied. You\u2019ve got to start by saying, \u201cOkay; this isn\u2019t about me,\u201d and both of you, together, be pursuing, \u201cHow do we please God in our marriage?\u201d\n\nThat\u2019s what\u2019s at the heart of the book, <em>Emptied<\/em>, that Jonathan and his wife Wynter have written. We\u2019ve got copies of the book in our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>Resource Center. You can order it from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or if you\u2019d like to call to order, the number is 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com; our toll-free number is 1-800-358-6329\u20141-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d Ask about the book, <em>Emptied, <\/em>when you get in touch with us.\n\nYou know, some great thoughts on our marriages from Jonathan. David Robbins, who\u2019s the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, is here with us. We\u2019re thinking about marriage a lot, here, at FamilyLife. Did you hear anything that jumped out at you today?\n\n<strong>David:<\/strong> I want to revisit what Jonathan said when he said, \u201cTo be Christ-like in a marriage would be to get rid of any reason or excuse why we couldn\u2019t empty ourselves to serve one another.\u201d What grabs me in that definition, that I\u2019ve never really thought about, is the word, \u201cexcuse.\u201d\n\nI think a lot of us are familiar with the biblical call to empty ourselves and to serve those around us and, certainly, our spouse. But when the rubber meets the road in our lives, how often does what amounts to an excuse prevent me from doing something and serving others? For me, I can make the excuse of timing: \u201cThis is just not the right time,\u201d\u2014I make that excuse a lot\u2014or \u201cI\u2019m already focused on something that\u2019s too important, and this just can\u2019t take over that,\u201d or \u201cThis season of our kids is so demanding. Let\u2019s push aside emptying ourselves for one another and empty ourselves out for <em>their<\/em> sake.\u201d\n\nThe reality is that those things are <em>real<\/em>, and we do have our limitations; but I just think, today, I\u2019m reminded: \u201cHow can we go to the Lord, and ask ourselves if I\u2019m making those things excuses?\u201d and \u201cIf He wants me to rearrange and surrender anything?\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> There\u2019s a parable\u2014Jesus told a parable about people making excuses; didn\u2019t He?\n\n<strong>David:<\/strong> Yes; Luke 14\u2014I mean, that is the parable of the feast, where the invitations go out. Jesus gives the example of three different people invited to the feast of the king. They all make different excuses of something they needed to attend to first or something more important\u2014and that\u2019s totally what I do\u2014and they missed out on the feast with the king!\n\nI think, often, we miss out. What if we took Jonathan\u2019s definition to heart and took seriously our call to surrender to Jesus and to empty ourselves of excuses that keep us from serving our spouse?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cHow can we, intentionally, serve one another in marriage? What are some practical ways we can live that out?\u201d That\u2019s good for us to chew on; thank you, David.\n\nYou know, our hope, here, at FamilyLife is that every day, as you listen to this program, you find practical biblical help and hope for your marriage and your family. We want to talk about things that are going to make a difference in your home. We want to effectively develop godly marriages and families; because those godly marriages and families can change the world, one home at a time.\n\nAll that we do here happens because listeners, like you, embrace that mission, along with us, and say: \u201cI want to be a part of helping make that happen in my city, in my community, in our world. I think this is an important goal. I want to make sure FamilyLife continues on my local radio station. I want my neighbors and friends to be able to hear it. I want to have access to it through the app or online.\u201d You make all of those things possible when you make a donation to help support the work of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. In fact, those of you who are monthly Legacy Partners, we want to say a special \u201cThank you,\u201d to you for your ongoing monthly support.\n\nThis month, we\u2019ve had some friends of the ministry, who have come to us and offered to match every donation we receive, in the month of May, on a dollar-for-dollar basis, up to a total of $645,000. If you make a donation today, your donation will be matched. If you become a Legacy Partner today, and agree to make a donation each month, every donation you make over the next 12 months is going to be matched, dollar for dollar, as long as there are still funds in that matching-gift fund.\n\nIn addition, if you become a Legacy Partner today, we\u2019re going to send you a thank-you gift\u2014that\u2019s a gift card so that you and your spouse\u2014or friends of yours\/maybe somebody getting married this summer\u2014the gift card will cover the registration fee for you or for them to attend one of our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage getaways. That gift card is our way of expressing our gratitude to you for your partnership with this ministry.\n\nIf you can help with a donation today\u2014help us take advantage of this matching-gift opportunity\u2014if you want to become a Legacy Partner today, go to FamilyLifeToday.com. All the information is available there. You can donate online; or call to donate: 1-800-FL-TODAY is our number\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-358-6329\u20141-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nNow, tomorrow, we want to talk more about what it looks like to have an emptied-out life and marriage and how that does bring fullness, both in your marriage and in your own soul. Jonathan Pitts will be joining us, again, tomorrow. I hope you can join us as well.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. 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Pitts reflects on his marriage to his now deceased wife, Wynter, and the conflict that showed up early and often in their relationship.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-05-21.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Early in his relationship with Wynter\u2014his girlfriend, who would become his wife\u2014Jonathan Pitts said something that, years later, he realized was just wrong.\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> We\u2019re 21 years old; I think, in a moment of weakness, where it\u2019s like an intimate conversation about the future, I just said to her, \u201cHey, it\u2019ll really be hard for me to love you if you ever get fat.\u201d [Gasps] I thought\u2014yes, yes; it was bad.\n\nThe good thing is\u2014once you grow up on the inner streets of the city of Baltimore\u2014it didn\u2019t phase her, not one bit. She was just highly offended and gave me a few choice words. It exposed this idolatry that I had, and this image-consciousness, and ugh!\u2014yuckiness.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, May 21<sup>st<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. When we\u2019re young, we still have a lot to learn about healthy relationships, and a lot to learn about how we give grace to one another when we blow it. We\u2019ll hear more about that today from Jonathan Pitts. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. We\u2019ve talked a little bit about this\u2014you\u2019re not both loud in conflict; right?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> My wife\u2019s a lot louder than I am, Bob\u2014a lot louder. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Have you gotten louder over the years?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, have I gotten louder? I don\u2019t know. Honey?\u2014I\u2019m getting pretty loud right now! [Laughter] I have my moments, you know; but she\u2019s a <em>fiery<\/em> little pepper pot over there.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m hearing these quiet women and I\u2019m like, \u201cOh, I wish I was that\u201d; but I\u2019m not. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Part of the reason I\u2019m asking is because we\u2019ve got Jonathan Pitts joining us, again, today. Jonathan, welcome back to <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em>\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Thanks for having me.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Jonathan is an executive pastor of Church of the City in Nashville, Tennessee. Jonathan is a speaker; he\u2019s a writer. He and his wife Wynter\u2014who, as we\u2019ve already shared this week, went to be with the Lord last year\u2014right before she went home, they wrote a book called <em>Emptied: Experiencing the Fullness of a Poured-Out Marriage<\/em>.\n\nYou are both loud?\n\n<strong>Jonathan: <\/strong>No; I\u2019m loud, and she preferred me not to be loud. [Laughter] She was, actually\u2014Wynter was really quiet, and she had very few words. When she spoke\u2014my sisters would describe it as, \u201cWhen Wynter would speak, you would listen; because if she spoke, she meant to speak, and it wasn\u2019t just rambling.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Your early relationship\u2014did conflict show up early?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; it showed up early and often in our early relationship. [Laughter] It typically looked like <em>me<\/em> trying to force a conversation and her trying to withdraw from that conversation. It was probably a conversation that needed to happen, but my tone was not one that was helpful to her.\n\nShe grew up, and her dad was a drug addict. She grew up with her mom and her grandmom in a house. Her mom and her grandmom both gave their lives to the Lord in 1979, the year before she was born. She grew up in a Christian home\/very warm environment\u2014inner city of Baltimore; lots of craziness going on around her home\u2014but in her home, it was warm. But there was no father figure in there; so even the nature of that voice for her\u2014it wasn\u2019t one that she was used to in marriage. It was something I had to learn\u2014to kind of bring my tone down.\n\nI grew up in a family\u2014twin brother, three sisters\u2014everybody\u2019s fighting and jockeying for position; you know? [Laughter] We had two very different environments; so that was a struggle, early on\u2014was just figuring out how to communicate well.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I love the honesty in your book. Immediately, I\u2019m like, \u201cThis is a couple that\u2019s going to let us in their marriage\u2014slamming doors, fights, the whole thing.\u201d\u00a0 The story, early in your marriage, where she got lost\u2014tell that.\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Wynter\u2014she wasn\u2019t a girl who was good at like following directions or even knowing where she was. In fact, she hated South Jersey, which is a rural part of South Jersey; because there\u2019s no streetlights, and there\u2019s circles, and all this stuff. She leaves because of a fight, and gets out of the house. The reality was\u2014she didn\u2019t know where she was going, so she has to call me for directions to get home. [Laughter]\n\nFor me, leaving wasn\u2019t an option. I think, for Wynter, it was kind of fight-or-flight kind of a deal. She grew up; her dad left, and that was one of the struggles she had, early in marriage; but it wasn\u2019t for me. I looked\u2014I watched my parents, who have now been married, 45 years, I think\u2014something like that. There\u2019s going to be intenseness there\u2014there\u2019s going to be all that\u2014but leaving\u2019s never an option.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> How did you work that out when one of you would kind of shut down? Wynter was more quiet, so she would get quiet. Did that frustrate you? How did you guys work that out?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Early on, it would frustrate me. I would just keep trying to assert myself and force myself\u2014and not like horrible ways\u2014but just not in a way that was mature. Even my intensity I talk with right now\u2014like I just have that about me, so I had to learn to temper that. The more I did, the more she would receive anything that I had to offer.\n\nShe also had to learn to kind of step up to the table, even when she didn\u2019t want to.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Open up.\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; we met in the middle.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The title of the book is <em>Emptied<\/em>. The big idea is that, for marriage to work, we have to go through this process\/this ongoing process of emptying the us\u2014not the us\u2014the <em>me<\/em>. Empty the <em>me<\/em> out of the relationship so that we can love one another better. In a moment like this, where there\u2019s conflict\u2014and one\u2019s walking out or the other\u2019s walking out\u2014that\u2019s where you have to pull back and go: \u201cWhere\u2019s the selfishness in that? Where\u2019s the <em>me<\/em> that is the problem?\u201d and \u201cHow do I empty that?\u201d\n\nWe\u2019re talking to people, who have been in conflict in the last 24 hours, who have, maybe, not recognized the <em>me<\/em> in the middle of that. What do they <em>do<\/em> when they\u2019re in those moments? How do you drain the <em>me<\/em> out so you can be emptied?\n\n<strong>Jonathan: <\/strong>The book is really based on Philippians 2:7\u2014it is, although Jesus was equal with God, He didn\u2019t take His equality with God as something to be grasped, but became a servant, humbled Himself to the point of obedience and death on a cross. It\u2019s kind of taken from this idea of Jesus\u2014who had <em>every<\/em> right to stay kind of up here\u2014basically comes down to meet somebody that didn\u2019t deserve to be met\u2014in us.\n\nThe idea is\u2014to be Christ-like is to get rid of <em>anything<\/em> that would be any reason or any excuse as to why we can\u2019t come down to meet in <em>any<\/em> relationship\u2014but specifically, in marriage, to meet our spouse. Honestly, the goal is emptying ourselves. We thought of a couple things we\u2019d be full of that would need to be emptied: The first was sin\u2014like sin that we brought into our marriage\u2014ugly sin\/just sin\u2014we\u2019re human; we all bring it in\u2014history, which we all bring in; and then expectations, which we all bring in.\n\nHow do you begin to empty yourselves of <em>those<\/em> things in order to be filled up?\u2014to be filled up with the Spirit?\u2014love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control, which God can\u2019t do if you\u2019re full of all this other stuff and all these reasons as to why you can\u2019t.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Talk to the person\u2014and it would probably be me\u2014[Laughter]\u2014that is going, \u201cI <em>want<\/em> to empty; I really\u2014I value what you\u2019re saying. I do want to empty myself and get rid of the me, and love her, and love <em>anybody<\/em> the way they deserve; but I <em>can\u2019t<\/em>. I just get stuck.\u201d How do I <em>empty<\/em> myself?\n\n<strong>Jonathan: <\/strong>Yes; well, first, it\u2019s like we end the book by talking about just this reality that you can only do it, looking at Jesus\u2014like looking at Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of your faith. You, literally, have to look to Him as the solution; because in terms of the world, we can all do marriage pretty okay; but to do what God\u2019s asked us to do and become a we?\u2014like that\u2019s not happening without Jesus.\n\nI would say, \u201cLeaning into Jesus, first and foremost\u2014it\u2019s the nature of the task we\u2019re being asked to do\u2014we can\u2019t do it alone.\u201d I would say, \u201cLean into God.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> One of your chapter titles is called \u201cGod\u2019s Kingdom Purposes.\u201d You say our marriages are about building God\u2019s kingdom. What does that mean? What does that look like?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> The reality of your marriage\/my marriage is\u2014it\u2019s not about us at all; it\u2019s all about God. It\u2019s His story that we get to participate in.\n\nOne of the things that Wynter and I\u2014not only in our marriage but, also, as we raised our kids\u2014is have this perspective that: \u201cOur marriage isn\u2019t about us. Our life isn\u2019t about us. Our kids aren\u2019t about us. It\u2019s all about God\u2019s purposes.\u201d When you do that, you actually begin to let go of some of the expectations that you have for you; because you realize you\u2019re not there for you in the first place. It changes your perspective just a little bit.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I have to tell you\u2014this has been one of those \u201cah-ha\u2019s\u201d for me. You\u2019d think, after almost 40 years of marriage, I\u2019d have gotten this quicker. The first phase of our marriage, I was thinking, \u201cOkay; am I happy?\u201d And then I recognized the Bible doesn\u2019t ask that question; it says: \u201cIs your wife happy? Are you serving her? Are you emptying yourself and serving her?\u201d I spent a lot of time thinking, \u201cIf what I am doing is making Mary Ann happy, then God is pleased.\u201d\n\nAnd then, all of a sudden, I woke up and went: \u201cNo; the real question is\u2014not if I\u2019m happy or if she\u2019s happy\u2014but: \u2018Is God happy? Are we living our marriage so that, at the end of the day, He is going, \u2018\u201dI am pleased with what\u2019s going on here\u201d?\u2019\u201d Sometimes, Him being pleased means one of the two of us is not happy; but ultimately, if we both agree that\u2019s what we want to make happen\u2014we <em>want<\/em> God to be happy with our marriage\u2014so that brings both of us back into alignment.\n\nWhen things are out of alignment, we can say: \u201cOkay; God\u2019s not pleased with us being out of alignment, because He wants oneness in our marriage. How do we recalibrate so that <em>He\u2019s<\/em> pleased with what\u2019s going on here?\u201d\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; I think it takes it back to purpose. If you think about the Scripture that says, \u201cFor the joy set before Him, He endured the cross,\u201d\u2014like Jesus didn\u2019t come to just hang out; He had a purpose in coming to earth. \u201cFor the joy set before Him, He endured the cross,\u201d\u2014He went through all the things He had to go through in order to accomplish the purpose that He came for.\n\nI think the same is true in marriage\u2014like if we have this perspective\u2014that we\u2019re not looking for our own happiness; our spouse isn\u2019t looking for their own happiness\u2014we\u2019re both looking for joy that comes with the purpose of serving whatever purpose God\u2019s given us, then it gives us more energy for the struggle; because there is struggle involved. It\u2019s going to come with God\u2019s grace, but it ends with joy. Right now, I don\u2019t look at my book; I don\u2019t look at my marriage; I don\u2019t look at what we had\u2014and think about what\u2019s ended. I think about the joy that God gave us in the struggle, working through, day by day. We were doing that until the end.\n\nThinking about God\u2019s purpose will change your perspective on anything\/everything else. It will diminish the <em>me<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And what conflicts with that\u2014that <em>me<\/em> that\u2019s in us\u2014comes from patterns from the past\/comes from our own flesh that wars. You recognized this, early on, when you went out for doughnuts, back when you were dating. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Krispy Kreme<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> was a <em>thing<\/em> when we were in college. We went to Drexel University in Philadelphia, and the closest Krispy Kreme was in Wilmington, Delaware. It was probably about an hour\u2019s drive, a little less than that. We drive down to Wilmington to get Krispy Kreme. We get there, and we get doughnuts.\n\nShe says, \u201cDo you want to get some to go?\u201d And I\u2019m like, \u201cNo; I\u2019m good.\u201d Then she says, \u201cI\u2019m going to get a half dozen.\u201d She gets her half dozen; we make our way back to Philadelphia. We get to her apartment, and she goes to eat another doughnut. I\u2019m like, \u201cLet me have one of those.\u201d She\u2019s like, \u201c<em>No<\/em>.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWhat do you mean, \u2018No\u2019?\u201d She\u2019s like, \u201cNo; these are my doughnuts.\u201d\n\nIt was just funny, because it was our first argument. I was actually really offended that she wouldn\u2019t; but she still would say, \u201cI <em>asked<\/em> you if you wanted any.\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cYou didn\u2019t want any\u201d; exactly.\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> That was the earliest fight and indication that we were two very different people.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But it\u2019s also an indication that we bring patterns from the past. You can see, where, with her background, which you\u2019ve already described\u2014growing up in a tough place, without a dad, where maybe you keep protecting\u2014\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> \u2014self-preserve! [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014you protect what\u2019s yours!\n\nYou grew up in a family, where, \u201cHey, if it\u2019s here, it\u2019s <em>ours<\/em>.\u201d\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> My mom split a Snickers bar five ways for us. There were five of us, and we didn\u2019t have a ton of money; so she has stories of splitting a Snickers.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>That would make sense why you\u2019d want that doughnut.\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; exactly!\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So we bring patterns in; and then, we bring our own passions and the flesh that says, \u201cI want what I want.\u201d That\u2019s what\u2019s got to be emptied for there to be a oneness that happens in marriage; right?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes; absolutely.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s interesting, too\u2014I don\u2019t know if this has anything to do with doughnuts\u2014but the comment in your book, where you said, \u201cIf you get fat\u2026\u201d I mean, you said the no-no of all no-no\u2019s to a woman.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Ohhh, Jonathan!\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I\u2019ve documented it in the book, and I\u2019ve said it on several interviews; so I might as well just come out and share it. What I realized, early on, in marriage for me is that the idolatry of this image of what I wanted my family to be. I grew up\u2014I\u2019m mixed\u2014my mom\u2019s German; my dad\u2019s black. I grew up in a neighborhood\/a town, where that wasn\u2019t normal; so I just wanted to fit in.\n\nWe\u2019re 21 years old; we\u2019re sitting on her apartment steps\u2014the same apartment, where she wouldn\u2019t give me a doughnut. Wynter was not, a day in her life, like over 120; she was just a tiny little girl. This is how you know like something is a stronghold\u2014it was a stronghold for me. We\u2019re sitting there; in a moment of weakness, where it\u2019s like an intimate conversation about the future, I just said to her, \u201cHey, it\u2019ll be really be hard for me to love you if you ever get fat.\u201d\u00a0 I thought\u2014yes, yes; I know; yes, it was bad.\n\nThe good thing is\u2014once you grew up on the inner-city streets of Baltimore\u2014it didn\u2019t phase her; not one bit. She was just highly offended and gave me a few choice words. It exposed this idolatry that I had, and this image-consciousness, and ugh!\u2014yuckiness.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Do you remember what she said when you said that?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> I don\u2019t remember exactly what she said; it was pretty colorful. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But she didn\u2019t just go, \u201cOh, okay.\u201d\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Oh, no.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cOh, okay; I\u2019ll try not to.\u201d\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> In the moment, no\u2014not at all. In the moment, it became a big argument. Really, what would happen is\u2014you know, trust is one of those things that can be\u2014it\u2019s built up over years, but it\u2019s broken in a moment. What that did was\u2014it broke trust at a certain level. For a girl that like already struggled with, \u201cAm I loved?\u201d\u2014you know, her dad\u2019s gone\u2014like just the classic things that would happen for a girl that has a dad that\u2019s a drug addict, it leaves\u2014she was dealing with that.\n\nSo this man comes into her life, that\u2019s supposed to love her unconditionally, and he gives her the first condition. That would be something that would take, honestly, years for us to work out. For me, it was working out the idolatry in my own heart that would work itself out in little things, like monitoring what she\u2019s eating.\n\nWhen strongholds come\u2014and every listener has them, so they\u2019ll recognize what that is in their life\u2014when they come, like they come with actual, real, tangible things\u2014you might shut down, emotionally; you might say something; you might get a little funky attitude\u2014whatever it is. Whatever the strongholds are, they come; and they come with real implications.\n\nFor me, it was, \u201cHow do I trust God enough to let go of that thing\/my condition?\u201d For her, it was, \u201cHow do I trust this guy, again, after he basically told me he has a condition for loving me?\u201d It was <em>horrible<\/em>. The beautiful thing is\u2014I can document it, because we got completely past that; and my wife <em>knew<\/em> that I loved her unconditionally.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Here\u2019s the check I think all of us have to do; because in the back of our minds, \u201cAre there conditions?\u201d\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Do we withhold affection if <em>you\u2019re<\/em> not performing at the level that\u2019s acceptable to us? And it may not be weight-related; it may be: \u201cDid you do your chores right?\u201d or \u201cDid you take care of this?\u201d or \u201cDid you <em>say<\/em> the right things?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cAre you talking to me? Are you communicating?\u201d I think we all have those conditions that we\u2019re not even aware of. I think it\u2019s a <em>great<\/em> point\u2014that you\u2019re going deeper into it: \u201cWhy do I have those conditions?\u201d and \u201cWhere do they come from?\u201d Many of us never go <em>there<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What do we do to, first of all, see if there are strongholds like that in our marriage?\u2014if there are conditions that we, subconsciously, put on affection or love? And then, what do we do when we recognize that that\u2019s there?\u2014and yet, we still want it done?\u2014and \u201cI\u2019m not pleased if you\u2019re not acting, or talking, or being this way\u201d? How do I deal with that if that\u2019s the reality?\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> For me, I remember Tony Evans, who\u2019s a mentor of mine, saying\u2014basically, saying that \u201cFaith is acting like God is telling the truth.\u201d When you face a moment, where you have to muster up faith, it\u2019s basically, \u201cAct like God is telling the truth.\u201d So, for me, acting like God was telling the truth on our marriage was that: \u201cIf I let go of this condition, and love my wife like Christ loved the church, that there is reward in that for me. God will give me everything that it takes to do that.\u201d\n\nFor me, practically speaking, it was like, when those moments would come\u2014you know, it\u2019s like what Paul\u2019s talking about\u2014basically, taking your thoughts captive. It\u2019s, literally, leaning in when I feel like leaning back. It\u2019s leaning in to love my wife more\u2014showing her affection even when like all of my flesh is telling me not to show her affection. It\u2019s kind of crazy, but strongholds can be like that. Acting like God is telling the truth, and leaning in when you feel like leaning back\u2014that\u2019s what I\u2019d say.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think what marriage does is\u2014our spouse can push buttons and trigger us into not even knowing a stronghold has been there\u2014\n\n<strong>Jonathan:<\/strong> That\u2019s true.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014or even a lie has been planted in our head.\n\nI know that I have, some times\u2014my dad was a baseball coach\u2014and the whole baseball team was sitting in our living room. I had to walk through that, as a nine-year-old girl. I felt very awkward and very conscious of walking through there. I remember my dad\u2014it was very quiet\u2014and he said, \u201cBoys, this is my daughter; and when she starts filling out her clothes, she\u2019s going to be a looker.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Oh, wow.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And what does that say to <em>me<\/em>?\u2014is that: \u201cOh, if that doesn\u2019t happen,\u201d or \u201cIf I don\u2019t look a certain way, then I won\u2019t be attractive.\u201d So that was there.\n\nI had another time in high school\u2014I think I was 16\u2014and I heard a girl\/one of my friends talking to her mother. She didn\u2019t know I was in the room; but I heard her say, \u201cAnn is really ugly,\u201d\u2014this is what the daughter said to her mom\u2014and her mom said, \u201cI know; but at least, she tries hard.\u201d So, when Dave would tell me things like, \u201cOh, you look so good,\u201d I\u2019d say, \u201cNo; I don\u2019t!\u201d\n\nI think what you\u2019re talking about is\u2014even in your mind, we play things over and over in our mind about ourselves\/about our spouse. Sometimes, I think taking that thought captive and looking at it and asking: \u201cWhere did this come from? Is this true?\u201d and \u201cDoes God say this about me?\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I would hear Ann say\/make these comments. For probably a decade, I was so dense; I never realized, \u201cThat\u2019s a stronghold in her life.\u201d I was always\u2014initially, I was\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> You\u2019d get mad at me.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014I\u2019d get mad. How\u2019s that for a <em>terrible<\/em> response? But I\u2019d be like, \u201cWhat do you mean, \u2018You\u2019re not pretty\u2019?! You\u2019re the most <em>beautiful<\/em> woman I\u2019ve ever seen. You know that; I know that. Let\u2019s move on.\u201d That was my response in my immaturity.\n\nNow, I look back\u2014there were symptoms, over and over, that she was crying out: \u201cThis is a stronghold. This is what I really believe.\u201d It\u2019s really cool now, as a husband, to come alongside and go, \u201cI can be the one to be the voice of God.\u201d I can go\u2014like you said\u2014go to the Word of God; say, \u201cThis is your identity,\u201d and speak it, and give life continually.\n\nThat\u2019s what you did, and that\u2019s what Wynter did with you. It\u2019s beautiful thing in a marriage\u2014to be able to say, \u201cNo, no, no; it\u2019s not true,\u201d in a gentle way\u2014because if you yell it\u2014that\u2019s what I did\u2014and now, it\u2019s more gentle, to say, \u201cNo; this is what\u2019s true.\u201d\n\nHopefully, that lands and demolishes the stronghold.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> If we have a spouse that doesn\u2019t do that for us, we have a Father that continually is speaking life into us through His Word. He <em>continually<\/em> tells us that we\u2019re fearfully and wonderfully made. If we didn\u2019t have the Word of God, I would feel so lost and empty; because He\u2019s continually encouraging us to listen to the truth of who He says we are.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, to get to where we\u2019re talking about getting unconditional love, and affirmation of others, and dealing with things from the past, you\u2019ve got to start by being emptied. You\u2019ve got to start by saying, \u201cOkay; this isn\u2019t about me,\u201d and both of you, together, be pursuing, \u201cHow do we please God in our marriage?\u201d\n\nThat\u2019s what\u2019s at the heart of the book, <em>Emptied<\/em>, that Jonathan and his wife Wynter have written. We\u2019ve got copies of the book in our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>Resource Center. You can order it from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or if you\u2019d like to call to order, the number is 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com; our toll-free number is 1-800-358-6329\u20141-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d Ask about the book, <em>Emptied, <\/em>when you get in touch with us.\n\nYou know, some great thoughts on our marriages from Jonathan. David Robbins, who\u2019s the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, is here with us. We\u2019re thinking about marriage a lot, here, at FamilyLife. Did you hear anything that jumped out at you today?\n\n<strong>David:<\/strong> I want to revisit what Jonathan said when he said, \u201cTo be Christ-like in a marriage would be to get rid of any reason or excuse why we couldn\u2019t empty ourselves to serve one another.\u201d What grabs me in that definition, that I\u2019ve never really thought about, is the word, \u201cexcuse.\u201d\n\nI think a lot of us are familiar with the biblical call to empty ourselves and to serve those around us and, certainly, our spouse. But when the rubber meets the road in our lives, how often does what amounts to an excuse prevent me from doing something and serving others? For me, I can make the excuse of timing: \u201cThis is just not the right time,\u201d\u2014I make that excuse a lot\u2014or \u201cI\u2019m already focused on something that\u2019s too important, and this just can\u2019t take over that,\u201d or \u201cThis season of our kids is so demanding. Let\u2019s push aside emptying ourselves for one another and empty ourselves out for <em>their<\/em> sake.\u201d\n\nThe reality is that those things are <em>real<\/em>, and we do have our limitations; but I just think, today, I\u2019m reminded: \u201cHow can we go to the Lord, and ask ourselves if I\u2019m making those things excuses?\u201d and \u201cIf He wants me to rearrange and surrender anything?\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> There\u2019s a parable\u2014Jesus told a parable about people making excuses; didn\u2019t He?\n\n<strong>David:<\/strong> Yes; Luke 14\u2014I mean, that is the parable of the feast, where the invitations go out. Jesus gives the example of three different people invited to the feast of the king. They all make different excuses of something they needed to attend to first or something more important\u2014and that\u2019s totally what I do\u2014and they missed out on the feast with the king!\n\nI think, often, we miss out. What if we took Jonathan\u2019s definition to heart and took seriously our call to surrender to Jesus and to empty ourselves of excuses that keep us from serving our spouse?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cHow can we, intentionally, serve one another in marriage? What are some practical ways we can live that out?\u201d That\u2019s good for us to chew on; thank you, David.\n\nYou know, our hope, here, at FamilyLife is that every day, as you listen to this program, you find practical biblical help and hope for your marriage and your family. We want to talk about things that are going to make a difference in your home. We want to effectively develop godly marriages and families; because those godly marriages and families can change the world, one home at a time.\n\nAll that we do here happens because listeners, like you, embrace that mission, along with us, and say: \u201cI want to be a part of helping make that happen in my city, in my community, in our world. I think this is an important goal. I want to make sure FamilyLife continues on my local radio station. I want my neighbors and friends to be able to hear it. I want to have access to it through the app or online.\u201d You make all of those things possible when you make a donation to help support the work of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. In fact, those of you who are monthly Legacy Partners, we want to say a special \u201cThank you,\u201d to you for your ongoing monthly support.\n\nThis month, we\u2019ve had some friends of the ministry, who have come to us and offered to match every donation we receive, in the month of May, on a dollar-for-dollar basis, up to a total of $645,000. If you make a donation today, your donation will be matched. If you become a Legacy Partner today, and agree to make a donation each month, every donation you make over the next 12 months is going to be matched, dollar for dollar, as long as there are still funds in that matching-gift fund.\n\nIn addition, if you become a Legacy Partner today, we\u2019re going to send you a thank-you gift\u2014that\u2019s a gift card so that you and your spouse\u2014or friends of yours\/maybe somebody getting married this summer\u2014the gift card will cover the registration fee for you or for them to attend one of our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage getaways. That gift card is our way of expressing our gratitude to you for your partnership with this ministry.\n\nIf you can help with a donation today\u2014help us take advantage of this matching-gift opportunity\u2014if you want to become a Legacy Partner today, go to FamilyLifeToday.com. All the information is available there. You can donate online; or call to donate: 1-800-FL-TODAY is our number\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-358-6329\u20141-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nNow, tomorrow, we want to talk more about what it looks like to have an emptied-out life and marriage and how that does bring fullness, both in your marriage and in your own soul. Jonathan Pitts will be joining us, again, tomorrow. I hope you can join us as well.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. 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