{"id":305025,"date":"2019-05-16T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2019-05-16T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/why-do-i-stay\/"},"modified":"2019-05-16T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2019-05-16T15:00:00","slug":"why-do-i-stay","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/why-do-i-stay\/","title":{"rendered":"Why Do I Stay?"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>guest: Jay Stringer | Series: Unwanted | Is there more to your unwanted sexual behavior than just being tempted? Mental health counselor Jay Stringer, author of the book, &#8220;Unbroken,&#8221; delves into the topic of sexual brokenness and shares what he considers to be at the root of the issue. While a person&#8217;s problem may seem to be all about lust, Stringer believes it may actually be about anger or rejection. Indulging in our sin only makes us feel worse. Stringer assures those who are hurting that God has so much more in store for us, as long as we are courageous enough to look at our past and develop new ways to handle our anxiety.<br \/>\nShow Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tJourney into the Heart of Man Journey with Jay Stringer, a guided journey for men and women out of unwanted sexual behavior.\u00a0https:\/\/www.heartofmanjourney.com\/<br \/>\n \tLearn more about becoming a Legacy Partner, a monthly supporter of FamilyLife.\u00a0\u00a0https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/legacy<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Jay Stringer delves into the topic of sexual brokenness and shares what he considers to be at the root of the issue. While a person&#8217;s problem may seem to be all about lust, Stringer believes it may actually be about anger or rejection.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-05-16.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:34:14","filesize":"31.34M","filesize_raw":"32866952","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2844,2827,2088],"tags":[2989,6622],"podcast_series":[8274],"cwp_profile":[9535],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-305025","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-pornography","category-repentance","category-romance-and-sex","tag-pornography","tag-unwanted","podcast_series-unwanted","cwp_profile-jay-stringer","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/305025\/why-do-i-stay","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/305025\/why-do-i-stay","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"N78jRRk7j1\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/why-do-i-stay\/\">Why Do I Stay?<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/why-do-i-stay\/embed\/#?secret=N78jRRk7j1\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Why Do I Stay?&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"N78jRRk7j1\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-05-16.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-05-16.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Sexual temptation and sexual sin are prevalent in our culture today and difficult patterns to break. Jay Stringer has some thoughts about why that is.\n\n<strong>Jay:<\/strong> Most of us would say, \u201cI want to be done with this area of sexual brokenness\u201d; but until you recognize what would you do in difficult terrain without your most dependable getaway car, sorry, you\u2019re going to keep remaining in those really pernicious cycles. So, that, to me, is so much of the feedback of what our sexual brokenness is trying to teach us\u2014is that we really need to be able to develop new ways to handle our anxiety to work through marital conflict to pursue some of the deeper things within us.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, May 16<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine.\n\nGetting to the root of stubborn, persistent sin patterns in our lives\u2014including issues of sexual brokenness\u2014can be challenging; but when we get there, there\u2019s healing available too. We\u2019ll talk more about that today. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I\u2019ve had many occasions\u2014you have as well, Dave\u2014at a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage getaway to just address briefly with men the issue of lust and how lust is showing up in their lives and what they do about it. What you find when you talk with guys about this is that guys will often own\u2014\u201cYes, this is an issue,\u201d and \u201cYes, I\u2019d like to get rid of it\u201d\u2014but here\u2019s what they say, \u201cI\u2019ve tried. I\u2019ve prayed. I\u2019ve\u2014it just doesn\u2019t go away.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; they\u2019ll say, \u201cI\u2019ve seen victory for a while\u201d\u2014could be a day, a week, a month, six months\u2014\u201cand then I fall, and then I spin back in.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think I deal with a lot of women that don\u2019t know how to handle their husband\u2019s problem that they\u2014maybe, they uncovered\u2014but now, I feel like more and more women are saying, \u201cI have an issue as well.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cI don\u2019t know how to handle it.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I would even add this\u2014because Ann and I, when we speak at the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>, we\u2019ll do a session or two on sexual intimacy in marriage; and then they line up\u2014the couples.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Initially, we thought, \u201cOh, they are going to talk about how God meets them in this area.\u201d No; it\u2019s pain; it\u2019s confusion; it\u2019s hurt.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Shame.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s 90-percent that. They don\u2019t come up and say, \u201cMan, our sex life is great.\u201d They go\u2014\u201cMan, we\u2019re struggling in this area.\u201d Porn and lust and all that are a big part of it.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I find couples trying to address this issue by normalizing the behavior.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> They are saying, \u201cSo, it\u2019s okay since we\u2019re married for us to lust together as a part of how we engage one another in intimacy.\u201d We\u2019ve got Jay Stringer joining us again today. Jay has written on this \/ done research on this subject. He\u2019s a therapist and an author\u2014written a book called <em>Unwanted<\/em>. Jay is married to his wife Heather, got two kids, lives in the Seattle area. Jay, welcome back.\n\n<strong>Jay:<\/strong> Thank you for having me back.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is a part of what you do clinically working with people who are battling lust and trying to understand, \u201cWhy am I battling it, and is there a strategy for dealing with it?\u201d But you\u2019ve talked with people who, as Dave said, have victory over the issue for a season; and then all of the sudden, something happens. They are on a business trip that has been three months. They slip and fall. Now, they feel like\u2014\u201cI can never be free of this.\u201d\n\nYou did research with 3,800 men and women on this subject. You found in the research that the reoccurrence \/ the relapses\u2014that is pretty common; right?\n\n<strong>Jay:<\/strong> They are; yes. So, most of the current research out there would basically\u2014they tell us that these recurrences are pretty common. We know that 57 percent of our pastors \/ 64 percent of our youth pastors are struggling with this.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Hang on.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wow.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Say that again.\n\n<strong>Jay:<\/strong> 57 percent of our pastors are either struggling or have struggled with it, and about 67 percent of our youth pastors are struggling or have struggled\u2014likely higher.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; because they are probably not revealing\u2014Wow.\n\n<strong>Jay:<\/strong> Yes. So, I really wanted to get a sense of what is the why that\u2019s actually playing out here. To me, this is one of the most faithful approaches to Scripture that we can have\u2014is that\u2014especially in the book of Genesis\u2014when God approaches people who are in difficult places, God comes to Adam and says, \u201cWhere are you? What have you done?\u201d It\u2019s not\u2014\u201cDart your eyes from that next piece of fruit that might tempt you.\u201d\n\nTo Jacob who has been struggling his whole life with identity, God says, \u201cWhat is your name?\u201d To Hagar who has just been immensely traumatized by the first family of the faith, the angel of the Lord appears to her saying the two best questions that I think any of us could ask one another, which are: \u201cWhere do you come from? Where are you going?\u201d\n\nSo, to me, this is what we need to begin to kind of change within our families \/ with our church systems is: \u201cHow do we allow sexual brokenness to be one of the primary stages through which the work of redemption plays out in our lives?\u201d If we can actually begin to be honest of saying, \u201cThere is something about my heart that is able to be seduced every six months,\u201d or \u201cWhy is it whenever I try and make a bid for intimacy with my wife\u2014why is it, then, that I feel so drawn into pornography?\u201d\n\nSo, part of what my research found\u2014and definitely work with clients\u2014is that it\u2019s not random. So, the implication is if you want to find freedom today, you need to identify and transform the unique reasons that bring you to it in the first place. So, one of the key findings for men about why they continue to go back to pornography, in particular, was that a lack of purpose in a man\u2019s life led him to increased involvement with pornography by a factor of 7. So, men without a clear sense of purpose increase their involvement sevenfold.\n\nThis is really, really significant of a finding, and it makes me think about Genesis 3. The curse for a man is going to be basically thorns and thistles. So much of what people are going through in life is: \u201cSomeone else is getting that promotion that I thought I deserved\u201d; or \u201cI try and make some movement within my marriage, but then it just goes back to a place of futility and emptiness.\u201d\n\nOne of the reasons why pornography appeals to these types of men is that you can get exactly what you want when you want it in the world of the internet, and nothing else actually gives you that opportunity.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know it\u2019s interesting when you said the thing about men with purpose. I think you wrote about this in your book; but here is where I went immediately\u2014David. King David, 2 Samuel 11\u2014you know the precursor to his sin of sexual sin with Bathsheba was\u2014what was he doing?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Everybody is out to battle\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and he is home.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean there it is. In the spring of the year at a time when kings go out to battle, David sent Joab and his servants, and he stayed home. He has no purpose. I mean he does, but he should be somewhere else. I\u2019ve always said to men, \u201cYou\u2019re going to get in trouble when you are not doing what you are supposed to be doing\u2014you know?\u2014when you\u2019re not where you should be.\u201d\n\nAgain, I never connected it to the purpose part that you get at, which is the deeper issue; but I\u2019ve always said, \u201cBe very careful with your leisure time because, in some ways, it\u2019s purposeless time; and we live in a world where there it is\u2014boom.\u201d But we think it\u2019s just\u2014\u201cOh, I\u2019ve got a phone, and I can access it. That\u2019s the issue.\u201d No; you\u2019re saying it\u2019s a lot deeper.\n\n<strong>Jay:<\/strong> Yes; so that is one of those things with regard to pornography\u2014is definitely a moral issue; but beneath is definitely this issue of who you are. So, if you want freedom, you really need to begin to identify: \u201cHow do I take over authority for my life in order for there to be change?\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> What would you say\u2014I\u2019m going back to that statistic about Christian workers and pastors with a high percentage indulging in porn and different things.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s just scared a lot of people; didn\u2019t it?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; I\u2019m sitting there thinking, \u201cThey know better. We know better. We know Christ. We know the richness of an intimate relationship with Him.\u201d Yet, according to stats, there are men and women that are hiding something, and they are going somewhere else that they know better. Why would they go there?\n\n<strong>Jay:<\/strong> Yes; so, one of the things about just maturity in general in life is that we are going to have to confront some really difficult emotions and really difficult relational dynamics in our marriage and in our work life. I think part of what happens here is that, if the only thing that we know how to do when we are in the midst of kind of stress \/ anxiety or marital conflict is to actually go to something that we outsource the solution to that anxiety \/ to that purposelessness to pornography, that\u2019s where we are going to keep going back to time and time again.\n\nSo, that\u2019s a really, really significant thing for us to ask ourselves. Most of us would say, \u201cI want to be done with this area of sexual brokenness,\u201d but until you recognize what would you do in difficult terrain without your most dependable getaway car, sorry, you\u2019re going to keep remaining in those kind of really pernicious cycles.\n\nSo, that, to me, is so much of the feedback of what our sexual brokenness is trying to teach us\u2014is that we really need to be able to develop new ways to handle our anxiety to work through marital conflict to pursue some of the deeper things within us.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You know what you are talking about is, again, getting to the root of this issue. I think most people, including the Christian workers and the statistics we talked about here, are not thinking, \u201cHow do I deal with the root of this?\u201d They are thinking, \u201cHow do I manage this so that it stays\u201d\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Hidden.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes\u2014\u201cIt stays manageable, and nobody knows it\u2019s going on; but it\u2019s there if I need it.\u201d What would you say to him?\n\n<strong>Jay:<\/strong> So, I think we have to underscore, again, this point that, like, our sexual brokenness is not all about lust. Some of the other tributaries that feed our sexual brokenness involve anger. So, one of the classic examples in my own practice is that a man will come in and just say, \u201cI felt really rejected. I made this bid for intimacy with my spouse. She said, \u2018No.\u2019 Then I found myself down on the couch \/ down in the basement, and I started looking at some pornography site.\u201d\n\nSo, he will come in, and what he wants me to kind of catch him in is, like\u2014\u201cLook at my lust problem\u201d\u2014but part of my response back to him is: \u201cHow did you feel after your bid for intimacy was declined?\u201d Part of what he might say is: \u201cWell, I was a little bit frustrated.\u201d I will say, \u201cWell, tell me about, like, \u2018a little bit frustrated.\u2019\u201d He\u2019s like\u2014Well, a huge fight began to ensue because that was a lot of their marital dynamic was that if he would pursue bids for intimacy, and his wife would turn him down. He would feel anger very, very fast.\n\nSo, part of what we had to do is\u2014you\u2019ve tried your whole life to have an integrity with your lust, but you\u2019ve never once had integrity with your anger. So, that is often a very significant change for people\u2014is when they look at\u2014\u201cSome of the times that I\u2019m most drawn into pornography or wanting to have an affair are actually times when I am very angry with my spouse or I\u2019m very angry with where my life currently is.\u201d So, that just becomes this\u2014again, I think, part of God\u2019s knock on the door of our heart is to say, \u201cWhy are you so angry?\u201d\n\nWell, what this man eventually did was he went back to his wife and said, \u201cYou\u2019ve known about my struggles with porn, but what you don\u2019t know is that I haven\u2019t had integrity with my own anger.\u201d So, he went back to his wife and just said, \u201cWhen I make a bid for intimacy, what do you feel?\u201d Part of her response was: \u201cThis is one of the only places that you pursue me. I have had really significant steps in my own career that I\u2019ve taken. You have not asked me one question about these things.\u201d\n\nSo, what she opened up about was: \u201cI don\u2019t really feel free to say, \u2018Yes,\u2019 to sex because the meaning of the sex that we are having together is basically to abate or to diminish your anger, and that\u2019s not the type of sex life I want to have with you.\u201d\n\nSo, part of what they started working through, within a couple months, was: \u201cHow does he begin to pursue her with more integrity about what\u2019s going on in her life?\u201d In the moments where she was\u2014didn\u2019t feel free to say, \u201cNo,\u201d he said, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m going to stay in this, and I\u2019m going to deal with my disappointment. I\u2019m going to read a book, but you have my commitment that I\u2019m not going to outsource my anger to sexual brokenness and to pornography.\u201d\n\nThat really began to change his whole trajectory in life because he was always seeing as this lonely, rejected man rather than recognizing the power that he actually had to change his marriage.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> The cool thing about that is when you are sort of tracing back to the root with your spouse and get to the real heart of what she\u2019s feeling \/ what he\u2019s feeling\u2014is you can negotiate through that. You can get to the most beautiful, intimate relationship that\u2019s on the other side of that. You don\u2019t get there without it\u2014not just I get control of my lust, but the beauty of the relationship, including sexually, with your spouse gets a whole other level; right?\u2014because you are getting at her heart, your heart, and then those two hearts are coming together.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes, there is a vulnerability of your souls and knowing each other which is beautiful. I\u2019m wondering, as I\u2019m talking to more and more women over the years, the rate of women using pornography seems to be really rising. Is that true? And if so, why do you think?\n\n<strong>Jay:<\/strong> Most of the studies that I\u2019ve seen say about 30 percent of all pornography users are now women. So, we are definitely seeing a rapid, rapid increase in female involvement with pornography. Part of what we know is that the average age of initial exposure is somewhere in the range of about nine years old for most of us.\n\nSo, when we have these smartphones \/ when we have all these devices, again, what\u2019s going through the internet onto our screens are very\u2014I mean it\u2019s like basically having, as one person said, \u201cThe red light district in your own phone.\u201d So, what\u2019s happening to a lot of us is that former generations had to work really, really hard to find pornography. We have to work really, really hard to avoid it.\n\nSo, if, again, some of your first sexual experiences are\u2014\u201cHere is a sext,\u201d or \u201cHere is hardcore pornography\u201d\u2014that is going to set a sexual template for you that you don\u2019t feel fully alive unless you\u2019re remixing some of those original sexual experiences.\n\nSo, one of my female clients that I worked with\u2014she\u2014changed some of the story\u2014but she was a nanny for a family while she was in college, and what she didn\u2019t realize was that this family actually had a nanny cam installed in the bedroom, and they saw her rooting through the bedroom dresser and the side tables. They confronted her about it later on that night, and she was fired. What she told me was that I was really relieved that they thought I was just trying to steal valuables; but in reality, I was actually looking for sexual explicit material.\n\nSo, what I began to kind of work with her back was: \u201cWhy were you drawn to trying to find pornography in a random family home?\u201d As we traced that story back, it was actually her grandparents\u2019 house where she first found pornography. Part of the story with her was that during the summers she and her two siblings would go to their grandparents\u2019 place. There were certain points where the grandfather would say, \u201cBoys, I want you guys to go mow the lawn, rake the leaves\u201d; but she was assigned cleaning the guest bedrooms and the guest bathroom.\n\nHer grandfather was really specific about making sure that she would use his glass cleaner on the guest bathroom windows; and he told her where to find it. The first time that she went into the guest bathroom to clean it, she found his porn stash underneath the sink right next to the glass cleaner. So, she\u2014her whole life had just kind of seen it as\u2014\u201cI\u2019m just such a sexually broken girl and woman that I was even drawn to these images, and I don\u2019t know why I am pursuing these things\u201d; but in reality, it was her grandfather who set her up to find those things.\n\nSo, throughout her adolescence, those are the images that she kept going back to. Again, that\u2019s the point for us\u2014to say, \u201cWas your first exposure to pornography something that you actually chose, or was it introduced to you?\u201d If you happened to find it underneath the bed or in a bedside table, I\u2019m sorry, but your family set up or your extended family or your neighbor set up the very, very high probability that you are going to find it.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So, then do you just blame them?\n\n<strong>Jay:<\/strong> No; but it is about studying the conditions. For her, she wanted to kind of see herself as\u2014\u201cThere is something deeply broken about my sexuality.\u201d Again, part of the tears for her for that came was: \u201cI\u2019ve never had a choice within my sexual story.\u201d So, if I\u2019m going to reclaim authority, part of what God is inviting me into isn\u2019t just to say, \u201cNo,\u201d but it\u2019s to stand against some type of perversion in my life.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I have to think there are people who are listening today who go\u2014\u201cThat\u2019s what I want, and I\u2019ve tried to pursue it, and I haven\u2019t known how.\u201d Maybe, the conversation today has opened some new ways of thinking \/ some new understanding to go deeper to get a copy of Jay\u2019s book and go through it as a couple.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I really think just asking each other some questions really leads to this great depth and intimacy of\u2014\u201cHoney, tell me your story\u201d\u2014could be a great place to start because that opens your life\u2014and to be really honest about your story.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Like tell me the parts of your story you\u2019ve been afraid to tell me in the past.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Exactly.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But here\u2019s\u2014if you\u2019re going to do that, there has to be enough trust in the relationship that\u2014and I\u2019m not going to\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Explode.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes\u2014or shame.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Or any of those things.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I would add\u2014I could say this to men and women\u2014I\u2019m thinking men; but it would be: \u201cHave the courage to go there.\u201d I\u2019ve been afraid to go there at times\u2014\u201cI\u2019d just rather live in superficial intimacy; you know?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is an ongoing thing with us.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I want to go so deep with Dave. He\u2019s like\u2014\u201cLet\u2019s not.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. So, I\u2019m saying to myself in the mirror\u2014but every listener out there\u2014\u201cTonight is the night. Today is the day.\u201d What if you took a little baby step with your spouse or even with yourself to say, \u201cI want to go deeper. I want to ask the harder questions and start that journey.\u201d\n\nWhat we\u2019ve heard so far is\u2014man\u2014you go into that journey, it is going to lead you to the light. As we continue to talk, that\u2019s where I want to end.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> What\u2019s that look like?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Again, we\u2019ve got copies of Jay\u2019s book, <em>Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing<\/em>, that will help answer some of those questions. You can order your copy at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the title of the book is <em>Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing<\/em> by Jay Stringer our guest today.\n\nOrder online at FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nYou know reflecting back on our conversation, I think central to everything we\u2019ve talked about today is being courageous; but the whole idea of acting not in fear, but acting and doing what we know we ought to do.\n\nDavid Robbins who is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> is with us again today. You heard that as well; didn\u2019t you?\n\n<strong>David:<\/strong> Yes; I think all of us really are convinced that healing can come; and it can happen if we are courageous to really step into some the types of things we were talking about today; but I think we are also convinced about how terrifying it is to really go there sometimes. It requires courage, indeed.\n\nJoshua 1:9 is often quoted when talking about courage, and that\u2019s where God says, \u201cBe strong and courageous.\u201d But the reason Joshua could be strong and courageous can be found in the rest of the verse that\u2014\u201cFor the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.\u201d God\u2019s leading presence is the thing that provides us courage to be able to go and take some risk into these hard places.\u201d\n\nI would just ask listeners. As you are listening today, is there something that occurred that you said, \u201cThat\u2019s for me. I need to step into that with some courage?\u201d\u2014because here is the thing\u2014in Christ God with you. You probably aren\u2019t going to know how it all works out, but if He is leading, follow Him. He will provide as you are courageous.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; and we have both heard over and over again that courage is not the absence of fear. It\u2019s doing your duty in the face of fear; right?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good definition. Thank you, David.\n\nYou know we hope and trust that these kinds of conversations are helpful. In fact, we hear from enough <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners to know that God uses this program in some pretty significant ways in people\u2019s lives. Those of you who help support this ministry\u2014you make all of that possible. Your financial support of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is what keeps us on the air in your community and in communities all across the country and around the world. So, thank you for your ongoing support.\n\nIf you are regular <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listener, again, we ask you to consider making a donation during the month of May. We\u2019ve had some friends who have come along and agreed to match every donation we\u2019ve received this month dollar for dollar up to a total of what is now $645,000 dollars. That\u2019s a big number, and we hope to take full advantage of that matching gift. So, we want to ask you to make a donation knowing that your donation will be matched dollar for dollar.\n\nIf you become a Legacy Partner during the month of May and agree to make donations each month for the next 12 months, those donations are going to be matched dollar for dollar as well until the matching fund is depleted.\n\nIn addition, when you become a Legacy Partner, we\u2019re going to say, \u201cThank you for your ongoing monthly support,\u201d by sending you a gift card that will enable you or someone you know to attend an upcoming <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway. The conference registration is paid in full. That is our way of saying thank you for your ongoing support of this ministry by becoming a monthly Legacy Partner.\n\nYou can either make a one-time donation or become a Legacy Partner on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com or call if you\u2019d like to sign up or make a gift\u2014call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, thank you on behalf of the tens of thousands of listeners each day who are finding help and hope through this program. Thanks for making all of that possible by supporting <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\nAnd we hope you can join us back tomorrow Jay Stringer is going to be here for a final day to talk about why sexual sin is such a persistent issue in the lives of so many people and how it\u2019s becoming an increasing issue among women. We\u2019ll talk more about that tomorrow. I hope you can be with us for that.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. 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Stringer delves into the topic of sexual brokenness and shares what he considers to be at the root of the issue. While a person's problem may seem to be all about lust, Stringer believes it may actually be about anger or rejection.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-05-16.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Sexual temptation and sexual sin are prevalent in our culture today and difficult patterns to break. Jay Stringer has some thoughts about why that is.\n\n<strong>Jay:<\/strong> Most of us would say, \u201cI want to be done with this area of sexual brokenness\u201d; but until you recognize what would you do in difficult terrain without your most dependable getaway car, sorry, you\u2019re going to keep remaining in those really pernicious cycles. So, that, to me, is so much of the feedback of what our sexual brokenness is trying to teach us\u2014is that we really need to be able to develop new ways to handle our anxiety to work through marital conflict to pursue some of the deeper things within us.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, May 16<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine.\n\nGetting to the root of stubborn, persistent sin patterns in our lives\u2014including issues of sexual brokenness\u2014can be challenging; but when we get there, there\u2019s healing available too. We\u2019ll talk more about that today. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I\u2019ve had many occasions\u2014you have as well, Dave\u2014at a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage getaway to just address briefly with men the issue of lust and how lust is showing up in their lives and what they do about it. What you find when you talk with guys about this is that guys will often own\u2014\u201cYes, this is an issue,\u201d and \u201cYes, I\u2019d like to get rid of it\u201d\u2014but here\u2019s what they say, \u201cI\u2019ve tried. I\u2019ve prayed. I\u2019ve\u2014it just doesn\u2019t go away.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; they\u2019ll say, \u201cI\u2019ve seen victory for a while\u201d\u2014could be a day, a week, a month, six months\u2014\u201cand then I fall, and then I spin back in.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think I deal with a lot of women that don\u2019t know how to handle their husband\u2019s problem that they\u2014maybe, they uncovered\u2014but now, I feel like more and more women are saying, \u201cI have an issue as well.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u201cI don\u2019t know how to handle it.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I would even add this\u2014because Ann and I, when we speak at the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>, we\u2019ll do a session or two on sexual intimacy in marriage; and then they line up\u2014the couples.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Initially, we thought, \u201cOh, they are going to talk about how God meets them in this area.\u201d No; it\u2019s pain; it\u2019s confusion; it\u2019s hurt.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Shame.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It\u2019s 90-percent that. They don\u2019t come up and say, \u201cMan, our sex life is great.\u201d They go\u2014\u201cMan, we\u2019re struggling in this area.\u201d Porn and lust and all that are a big part of it.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I find couples trying to address this issue by normalizing the behavior.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> They are saying, \u201cSo, it\u2019s okay since we\u2019re married for us to lust together as a part of how we engage one another in intimacy.\u201d We\u2019ve got Jay Stringer joining us again today. Jay has written on this \/ done research on this subject. He\u2019s a therapist and an author\u2014written a book called <em>Unwanted<\/em>. Jay is married to his wife Heather, got two kids, lives in the Seattle area. Jay, welcome back.\n\n<strong>Jay:<\/strong> Thank you for having me back.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is a part of what you do clinically working with people who are battling lust and trying to understand, \u201cWhy am I battling it, and is there a strategy for dealing with it?\u201d But you\u2019ve talked with people who, as Dave said, have victory over the issue for a season; and then all of the sudden, something happens. They are on a business trip that has been three months. They slip and fall. Now, they feel like\u2014\u201cI can never be free of this.\u201d\n\nYou did research with 3,800 men and women on this subject. You found in the research that the reoccurrence \/ the relapses\u2014that is pretty common; right?\n\n<strong>Jay:<\/strong> They are; yes. So, most of the current research out there would basically\u2014they tell us that these recurrences are pretty common. We know that 57 percent of our pastors \/ 64 percent of our youth pastors are struggling with this.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Hang on.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Wow.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Say that again.\n\n<strong>Jay:<\/strong> 57 percent of our pastors are either struggling or have struggled with it, and about 67 percent of our youth pastors are struggling or have struggled\u2014likely higher.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; because they are probably not revealing\u2014Wow.\n\n<strong>Jay:<\/strong> Yes. So, I really wanted to get a sense of what is the why that\u2019s actually playing out here. To me, this is one of the most faithful approaches to Scripture that we can have\u2014is that\u2014especially in the book of Genesis\u2014when God approaches people who are in difficult places, God comes to Adam and says, \u201cWhere are you? What have you done?\u201d It\u2019s not\u2014\u201cDart your eyes from that next piece of fruit that might tempt you.\u201d\n\nTo Jacob who has been struggling his whole life with identity, God says, \u201cWhat is your name?\u201d To Hagar who has just been immensely traumatized by the first family of the faith, the angel of the Lord appears to her saying the two best questions that I think any of us could ask one another, which are: \u201cWhere do you come from? Where are you going?\u201d\n\nSo, to me, this is what we need to begin to kind of change within our families \/ with our church systems is: \u201cHow do we allow sexual brokenness to be one of the primary stages through which the work of redemption plays out in our lives?\u201d If we can actually begin to be honest of saying, \u201cThere is something about my heart that is able to be seduced every six months,\u201d or \u201cWhy is it whenever I try and make a bid for intimacy with my wife\u2014why is it, then, that I feel so drawn into pornography?\u201d\n\nSo, part of what my research found\u2014and definitely work with clients\u2014is that it\u2019s not random. So, the implication is if you want to find freedom today, you need to identify and transform the unique reasons that bring you to it in the first place. So, one of the key findings for men about why they continue to go back to pornography, in particular, was that a lack of purpose in a man\u2019s life led him to increased involvement with pornography by a factor of 7. So, men without a clear sense of purpose increase their involvement sevenfold.\n\nThis is really, really significant of a finding, and it makes me think about Genesis 3. The curse for a man is going to be basically thorns and thistles. So much of what people are going through in life is: \u201cSomeone else is getting that promotion that I thought I deserved\u201d; or \u201cI try and make some movement within my marriage, but then it just goes back to a place of futility and emptiness.\u201d\n\nOne of the reasons why pornography appeals to these types of men is that you can get exactly what you want when you want it in the world of the internet, and nothing else actually gives you that opportunity.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know it\u2019s interesting when you said the thing about men with purpose. I think you wrote about this in your book; but here is where I went immediately\u2014David. King David, 2 Samuel 11\u2014you know the precursor to his sin of sexual sin with Bathsheba was\u2014what was he doing?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Everybody is out to battle\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and he is home.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I mean there it is. In the spring of the year at a time when kings go out to battle, David sent Joab and his servants, and he stayed home. He has no purpose. I mean he does, but he should be somewhere else. I\u2019ve always said to men, \u201cYou\u2019re going to get in trouble when you are not doing what you are supposed to be doing\u2014you know?\u2014when you\u2019re not where you should be.\u201d\n\nAgain, I never connected it to the purpose part that you get at, which is the deeper issue; but I\u2019ve always said, \u201cBe very careful with your leisure time because, in some ways, it\u2019s purposeless time; and we live in a world where there it is\u2014boom.\u201d But we think it\u2019s just\u2014\u201cOh, I\u2019ve got a phone, and I can access it. That\u2019s the issue.\u201d No; you\u2019re saying it\u2019s a lot deeper.\n\n<strong>Jay:<\/strong> Yes; so that is one of those things with regard to pornography\u2014is definitely a moral issue; but beneath is definitely this issue of who you are. So, if you want freedom, you really need to begin to identify: \u201cHow do I take over authority for my life in order for there to be change?\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> What would you say\u2014I\u2019m going back to that statistic about Christian workers and pastors with a high percentage indulging in porn and different things.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s just scared a lot of people; didn\u2019t it?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; I\u2019m sitting there thinking, \u201cThey know better. We know better. We know Christ. We know the richness of an intimate relationship with Him.\u201d Yet, according to stats, there are men and women that are hiding something, and they are going somewhere else that they know better. Why would they go there?\n\n<strong>Jay:<\/strong> Yes; so, one of the things about just maturity in general in life is that we are going to have to confront some really difficult emotions and really difficult relational dynamics in our marriage and in our work life. I think part of what happens here is that, if the only thing that we know how to do when we are in the midst of kind of stress \/ anxiety or marital conflict is to actually go to something that we outsource the solution to that anxiety \/ to that purposelessness to pornography, that\u2019s where we are going to keep going back to time and time again.\n\nSo, that\u2019s a really, really significant thing for us to ask ourselves. Most of us would say, \u201cI want to be done with this area of sexual brokenness,\u201d but until you recognize what would you do in difficult terrain without your most dependable getaway car, sorry, you\u2019re going to keep remaining in those kind of really pernicious cycles.\n\nSo, that, to me, is so much of the feedback of what our sexual brokenness is trying to teach us\u2014is that we really need to be able to develop new ways to handle our anxiety to work through marital conflict to pursue some of the deeper things within us.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You know what you are talking about is, again, getting to the root of this issue. I think most people, including the Christian workers and the statistics we talked about here, are not thinking, \u201cHow do I deal with the root of this?\u201d They are thinking, \u201cHow do I manage this so that it stays\u201d\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Hidden.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes\u2014\u201cIt stays manageable, and nobody knows it\u2019s going on; but it\u2019s there if I need it.\u201d What would you say to him?\n\n<strong>Jay:<\/strong> So, I think we have to underscore, again, this point that, like, our sexual brokenness is not all about lust. Some of the other tributaries that feed our sexual brokenness involve anger. So, one of the classic examples in my own practice is that a man will come in and just say, \u201cI felt really rejected. I made this bid for intimacy with my spouse. She said, \u2018No.\u2019 Then I found myself down on the couch \/ down in the basement, and I started looking at some pornography site.\u201d\n\nSo, he will come in, and what he wants me to kind of catch him in is, like\u2014\u201cLook at my lust problem\u201d\u2014but part of my response back to him is: \u201cHow did you feel after your bid for intimacy was declined?\u201d Part of what he might say is: \u201cWell, I was a little bit frustrated.\u201d I will say, \u201cWell, tell me about, like, \u2018a little bit frustrated.\u2019\u201d He\u2019s like\u2014Well, a huge fight began to ensue because that was a lot of their marital dynamic was that if he would pursue bids for intimacy, and his wife would turn him down. He would feel anger very, very fast.\n\nSo, part of what we had to do is\u2014you\u2019ve tried your whole life to have an integrity with your lust, but you\u2019ve never once had integrity with your anger. So, that is often a very significant change for people\u2014is when they look at\u2014\u201cSome of the times that I\u2019m most drawn into pornography or wanting to have an affair are actually times when I am very angry with my spouse or I\u2019m very angry with where my life currently is.\u201d So, that just becomes this\u2014again, I think, part of God\u2019s knock on the door of our heart is to say, \u201cWhy are you so angry?\u201d\n\nWell, what this man eventually did was he went back to his wife and said, \u201cYou\u2019ve known about my struggles with porn, but what you don\u2019t know is that I haven\u2019t had integrity with my own anger.\u201d So, he went back to his wife and just said, \u201cWhen I make a bid for intimacy, what do you feel?\u201d Part of her response was: \u201cThis is one of the only places that you pursue me. I have had really significant steps in my own career that I\u2019ve taken. You have not asked me one question about these things.\u201d\n\nSo, what she opened up about was: \u201cI don\u2019t really feel free to say, \u2018Yes,\u2019 to sex because the meaning of the sex that we are having together is basically to abate or to diminish your anger, and that\u2019s not the type of sex life I want to have with you.\u201d\n\nSo, part of what they started working through, within a couple months, was: \u201cHow does he begin to pursue her with more integrity about what\u2019s going on in her life?\u201d In the moments where she was\u2014didn\u2019t feel free to say, \u201cNo,\u201d he said, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m going to stay in this, and I\u2019m going to deal with my disappointment. I\u2019m going to read a book, but you have my commitment that I\u2019m not going to outsource my anger to sexual brokenness and to pornography.\u201d\n\nThat really began to change his whole trajectory in life because he was always seeing as this lonely, rejected man rather than recognizing the power that he actually had to change his marriage.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> The cool thing about that is when you are sort of tracing back to the root with your spouse and get to the real heart of what she\u2019s feeling \/ what he\u2019s feeling\u2014is you can negotiate through that. You can get to the most beautiful, intimate relationship that\u2019s on the other side of that. You don\u2019t get there without it\u2014not just I get control of my lust, but the beauty of the relationship, including sexually, with your spouse gets a whole other level; right?\u2014because you are getting at her heart, your heart, and then those two hearts are coming together.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes, there is a vulnerability of your souls and knowing each other which is beautiful. I\u2019m wondering, as I\u2019m talking to more and more women over the years, the rate of women using pornography seems to be really rising. Is that true? And if so, why do you think?\n\n<strong>Jay:<\/strong> Most of the studies that I\u2019ve seen say about 30 percent of all pornography users are now women. So, we are definitely seeing a rapid, rapid increase in female involvement with pornography. Part of what we know is that the average age of initial exposure is somewhere in the range of about nine years old for most of us.\n\nSo, when we have these smartphones \/ when we have all these devices, again, what\u2019s going through the internet onto our screens are very\u2014I mean it\u2019s like basically having, as one person said, \u201cThe red light district in your own phone.\u201d So, what\u2019s happening to a lot of us is that former generations had to work really, really hard to find pornography. We have to work really, really hard to avoid it.\n\nSo, if, again, some of your first sexual experiences are\u2014\u201cHere is a sext,\u201d or \u201cHere is hardcore pornography\u201d\u2014that is going to set a sexual template for you that you don\u2019t feel fully alive unless you\u2019re remixing some of those original sexual experiences.\n\nSo, one of my female clients that I worked with\u2014she\u2014changed some of the story\u2014but she was a nanny for a family while she was in college, and what she didn\u2019t realize was that this family actually had a nanny cam installed in the bedroom, and they saw her rooting through the bedroom dresser and the side tables. They confronted her about it later on that night, and she was fired. What she told me was that I was really relieved that they thought I was just trying to steal valuables; but in reality, I was actually looking for sexual explicit material.\n\nSo, what I began to kind of work with her back was: \u201cWhy were you drawn to trying to find pornography in a random family home?\u201d As we traced that story back, it was actually her grandparents\u2019 house where she first found pornography. Part of the story with her was that during the summers she and her two siblings would go to their grandparents\u2019 place. There were certain points where the grandfather would say, \u201cBoys, I want you guys to go mow the lawn, rake the leaves\u201d; but she was assigned cleaning the guest bedrooms and the guest bathroom.\n\nHer grandfather was really specific about making sure that she would use his glass cleaner on the guest bathroom windows; and he told her where to find it. The first time that she went into the guest bathroom to clean it, she found his porn stash underneath the sink right next to the glass cleaner. So, she\u2014her whole life had just kind of seen it as\u2014\u201cI\u2019m just such a sexually broken girl and woman that I was even drawn to these images, and I don\u2019t know why I am pursuing these things\u201d; but in reality, it was her grandfather who set her up to find those things.\n\nSo, throughout her adolescence, those are the images that she kept going back to. Again, that\u2019s the point for us\u2014to say, \u201cWas your first exposure to pornography something that you actually chose, or was it introduced to you?\u201d If you happened to find it underneath the bed or in a bedside table, I\u2019m sorry, but your family set up or your extended family or your neighbor set up the very, very high probability that you are going to find it.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So, then do you just blame them?\n\n<strong>Jay:<\/strong> No; but it is about studying the conditions. For her, she wanted to kind of see herself as\u2014\u201cThere is something deeply broken about my sexuality.\u201d Again, part of the tears for her for that came was: \u201cI\u2019ve never had a choice within my sexual story.\u201d So, if I\u2019m going to reclaim authority, part of what God is inviting me into isn\u2019t just to say, \u201cNo,\u201d but it\u2019s to stand against some type of perversion in my life.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I have to think there are people who are listening today who go\u2014\u201cThat\u2019s what I want, and I\u2019ve tried to pursue it, and I haven\u2019t known how.\u201d Maybe, the conversation today has opened some new ways of thinking \/ some new understanding to go deeper to get a copy of Jay\u2019s book and go through it as a couple.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I really think just asking each other some questions really leads to this great depth and intimacy of\u2014\u201cHoney, tell me your story\u201d\u2014could be a great place to start because that opens your life\u2014and to be really honest about your story.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Like tell me the parts of your story you\u2019ve been afraid to tell me in the past.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Exactly.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But here\u2019s\u2014if you\u2019re going to do that, there has to be enough trust in the relationship that\u2014and I\u2019m not going to\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Explode.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes\u2014or shame.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Or any of those things.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And I would add\u2014I could say this to men and women\u2014I\u2019m thinking men; but it would be: \u201cHave the courage to go there.\u201d I\u2019ve been afraid to go there at times\u2014\u201cI\u2019d just rather live in superficial intimacy; you know?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> This is an ongoing thing with us.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I want to go so deep with Dave. He\u2019s like\u2014\u201cLet\u2019s not.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes. So, I\u2019m saying to myself in the mirror\u2014but every listener out there\u2014\u201cTonight is the night. Today is the day.\u201d What if you took a little baby step with your spouse or even with yourself to say, \u201cI want to go deeper. I want to ask the harder questions and start that journey.\u201d\n\nWhat we\u2019ve heard so far is\u2014man\u2014you go into that journey, it is going to lead you to the light. As we continue to talk, that\u2019s where I want to end.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> What\u2019s that look like?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Again, we\u2019ve got copies of Jay\u2019s book, <em>Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing<\/em>, that will help answer some of those questions. You can order your copy at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the title of the book is <em>Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing<\/em> by Jay Stringer our guest today.\n\nOrder online at FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nYou know reflecting back on our conversation, I think central to everything we\u2019ve talked about today is being courageous; but the whole idea of acting not in fear, but acting and doing what we know we ought to do.\n\nDavid Robbins who is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> is with us again today. You heard that as well; didn\u2019t you?\n\n<strong>David:<\/strong> Yes; I think all of us really are convinced that healing can come; and it can happen if we are courageous to really step into some the types of things we were talking about today; but I think we are also convinced about how terrifying it is to really go there sometimes. It requires courage, indeed.\n\nJoshua 1:9 is often quoted when talking about courage, and that\u2019s where God says, \u201cBe strong and courageous.\u201d But the reason Joshua could be strong and courageous can be found in the rest of the verse that\u2014\u201cFor the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.\u201d God\u2019s leading presence is the thing that provides us courage to be able to go and take some risk into these hard places.\u201d\n\nI would just ask listeners. As you are listening today, is there something that occurred that you said, \u201cThat\u2019s for me. I need to step into that with some courage?\u201d\u2014because here is the thing\u2014in Christ God with you. You probably aren\u2019t going to know how it all works out, but if He is leading, follow Him. He will provide as you are courageous.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; and we have both heard over and over again that courage is not the absence of fear. It\u2019s doing your duty in the face of fear; right?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good definition. Thank you, David.\n\nYou know we hope and trust that these kinds of conversations are helpful. In fact, we hear from enough <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners to know that God uses this program in some pretty significant ways in people\u2019s lives. Those of you who help support this ministry\u2014you make all of that possible. Your financial support of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is what keeps us on the air in your community and in communities all across the country and around the world. So, thank you for your ongoing support.\n\nIf you are regular <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listener, again, we ask you to consider making a donation during the month of May. We\u2019ve had some friends who have come along and agreed to match every donation we\u2019ve received this month dollar for dollar up to a total of what is now $645,000 dollars. That\u2019s a big number, and we hope to take full advantage of that matching gift. So, we want to ask you to make a donation knowing that your donation will be matched dollar for dollar.\n\nIf you become a Legacy Partner during the month of May and agree to make donations each month for the next 12 months, those donations are going to be matched dollar for dollar as well until the matching fund is depleted.\n\nIn addition, when you become a Legacy Partner, we\u2019re going to say, \u201cThank you for your ongoing monthly support,\u201d by sending you a gift card that will enable you or someone you know to attend an upcoming <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway. The conference registration is paid in full. That is our way of saying thank you for your ongoing support of this ministry by becoming a monthly Legacy Partner.\n\nYou can either make a one-time donation or become a Legacy Partner on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com or call if you\u2019d like to sign up or make a gift\u2014call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, thank you on behalf of the tens of thousands of listeners each day who are finding help and hope through this program. Thanks for making all of that possible by supporting <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\nAnd we hope you can join us back tomorrow Jay Stringer is going to be here for a final day to talk about why sexual sin is such a persistent issue in the lives of so many people and how it\u2019s becoming an increasing issue among women. We\u2019ll talk more about that tomorrow. I hope you can be with us for that.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. 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