{"id":305003,"date":"2019-05-07T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2019-05-07T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/getting-real-in-marriage\/"},"modified":"2019-05-07T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2019-05-07T15:00:00","slug":"getting-real-in-marriage","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/getting-real-in-marriage\/","title":{"rendered":"Getting Real in Marriage"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>guest: Catherine Parks | Catherine Parks, author of &#8220;Real,&#8221; believes that trust has to be established before a person can truly open up to another, and this applies to marriage. Parks remembers how, early in her marriage, she would stuff what she was feeling, afraid to rock the boat. Over the years, however, she learned that relationships grow through honesty and authenticity, with the end goal of confession being right worship of God. Ultimately our security must come from Christ, and not what others think.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Catherine Parks believes that trust has to be established before a person can truly open up to another, and this applies to marriage. Ultimately our security must come from Christ, and not what others think.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-05-07.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:31:20","filesize":"28.63M","filesize_raw":"30018463","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2867,2810,2093],"tags":[2576,6606,6607,4388,6324],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[9517],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-305003","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-church-involvement","category-growing-spiritually","category-women","tag-authenticity","tag-building-friendships","tag-finding-friends","tag-relationships","tag-vulnerable","cwp_profile-catherine-parks","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/305003\/getting-real-in-marriage","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/305003\/getting-real-in-marriage","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"hb1StevCyP\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/getting-real-in-marriage\/\">Getting Real in Marriage<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/getting-real-in-marriage\/embed\/#?secret=hb1StevCyP\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Getting Real in Marriage&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"hb1StevCyP\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-05-07.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-05-07.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We live in the Instagram<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> era. We try to make sure that the image of who we are\u2014not just the visual image, but the perception of who we are\u2014is well-manicured\/well-airbrushed. Catherine Parks says that inhibits real relationships with real, messy people just like us.\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> I have a very good friend, Amber, who would kind of encourage me to open up. She just loved me for <em>years<\/em> until I started to realize that, you know, there is so much joy and freedom in letting her know what was going on. Once I started doing that with friends, they started drawing me out, and saying: \u201cWhat <em>is<\/em> going on in your life?\u201d \u201cHow are you doing as a parent?\u201d I started to have the freedom to come out of that.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, May 7<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. What are the barriers that keep us from being honest and real with others, with friends, with our spouses? We\u2019re going to explore what real relationships look like today wit Catherine Parks. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. If there\u2019s a category of television programs, where the category name is the opposite of what the program is\u2014like if we said, \u201cIt\u2019s a comedy show,\u201d and then you tuned in and watched it, and you cried all the time, you would go, \u201cThey shouldn\u2019t call that comedy.\u201d There\u2019s this one category of TV, where it\u2019s just the opposite\u2014that\u2019s called reality television. [Laughter] And when you tune in to watch,\u2014[Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I didn\u2019t know where you were going, Bob.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Me neither.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014it\u2019s the exact <em>opposite. <\/em>You know, reality TV is the most manufactured thing there is out there.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong><em>Un<\/em>real.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>But we\u2019re talking about reality today; and the reason we\u2019re doing it is because Catherine Parks is joining us, again, on <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em> Welcome back.\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> Thanks.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Catherine is an author and has been with us before to talk about how you build a Christ-centered wedding. Now, we\u2019re talking about how you have a level of relationship in your marriage and in your family, and in all your relationships, that gets past the surface and goes to reality.\n\nDave and Ann, you know, when we talk about communication at the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage getaway, there\u2019s this pyramid that we talk about, where you go from just clich\u00e9 communication and you move down\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014Level One.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right\u2014from clich\u00e9, to facts, to opinions, and then you get to your feelings; and now, you get to \u201cHere\u2019s who I really am.\u201d\n\nReal relationships should be with a limited number of people. There\u2019s discretion that needs to be involved in being the kind of transparent you\u2019re talking about us being.\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> Yes; absolutely. I man, there\u2019s a trust that has to come there before you can open up with someone. A lot of times, that\u2019s time spent. Unfortunately, from Genesis 3 on, we\u2019ve been afraid to be who we really are and to show\u2014you know, from Adam and Eve trying to cover up with fig leaves and hiding from God.\n\nI love my husband, but I still feel that need to cover up and not to let him in. That\u2019s someone I\u2019ve known\u2014you know, we\u2019ve been married for almost 14 years. There\u2019s time and trust that\u2019s necessary for a lot of these things to happen.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Can we talk about that? Talk about marriage and realness in marriage. We got married because we wanted transparency and intimacy. We wanted to be known and loved at the same time. We wanted somebody who would know us, at our core, and would still love us. I think that\u2019s the longing of every human heart.\n\nBut then, you get married; and you feel like, \u201c I can\u2019t be real; because if you know the real me, you won\u2019t love the real me.\u201d Did you feel that, as a young wife?\n\n<strong>Catherine: <\/strong>Yes; I mean, just on a very surface level. When we got married, my husband picked out the apartment without me seeing it\u2014that we were going to live in\u2014because I was in another state. He did a great job finding a low-cost apartment. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I can see where this is going!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Aw, that\u2019s not good.\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> I <em>loved<\/em> my husband, and I loved being married; but you know, I wanted to make this little apartment our home. And there were roaches crawling out of the cabinets every time I opened them. For the first week of marriage, I just cried myself to sleep every night; because I was afraid to let him know that I was failing in my role as his wife. You know, I put all these expectations on myself and all of these assumptions on him and what his response would be.\n\nInstead of having an open conversation with him about, \u201cI love you, and I know you did your best\u2026\u201d\u2014any of those things\u2014I just stuffed it all down inside of me. That\u2019s kind of a silly example, but there are things like that still that I do. A lot of times it <em>is<\/em> <em>my<\/em> assumption about what he\u2019s going to think.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Talk to the woman, who\u2019s out there, saying: \u201cI <em>long<\/em> for this in my marriage relationship; I <em>long<\/em> for my husband to be real. I <em>long<\/em> for him to want to <em>know<\/em> me, and he just won\u2019t go there.\u201d How would you encourage her?\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> I mean, the first thing is\u2014that\u2019s an expectation that you have to give to the Lord; because when you put that on your spouse, you\u2019re setting both of you up for failure. It\u2019s a hope that is right to have; but ultimately, we know that the Lord is the only One who can truly satisfy the needs that we have. Being able to give those desires to Him and pray for that to happen\u2014I think the Holy Spirit is perfectly capable of doing that.\n\nI, also, think we assume that the other person won\u2019t want something; because we\u2019ve never broached the subject.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good point.\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> The first step, I think, after praying is just to say: \u201cYou know, I\u2019d like to be able to talk to you about some things,\u201d and \u201cI\u2019d like for you to listen and for us to be able to pray together,\u201d\u2014inviting them into that. That\u2019s what it took for me\u2014was someone inviting me into something I would never have done on my own.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I don\u2019t remember a specific time, but I know this happened early in our marriage\u2014when Mary Ann would start to have a conversation with me at that level of intimacy, where there\u2019s transparency and there\u2019s reality going on\u2014but because she didn\u2019t start the conversation by saying: \u201cI want to talk to you about something that\u2019s really important,\u201d and \u201cI\u2019d like you to listen carefully,\u201d I thought it was just kind of a normal, surface-level conversation. She\u2019s baring her heart about something, and I\u2019m kind of watching ESPN out of the corner of my eye.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, Bob!\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t know! Nobody told me, \u201cOh, we\u2019re having one of <em>those<\/em> kinds of conversations.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What would\u2019ve made you know?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If she had said: \u201cHey, there\u2019s something I want to talk to you about,\u201d and \u201cThis is important to me. When would be a good time for us to talk, where I could get your full attention?\u201d rather than to just start having it.\n\nBecause here\u2019s what happened\u2014Mary Ann would start having that; and I would not engage at the level of intimacy that she was looking for, where I was really listening, and nodding, and caring about what she was saying. Then she\u2019d go away and say: \u201cWell, I\u2019m never trying that again. It doesn\u2019t do me any good to bare my soul. He doesn\u2019t care.\u201d All of a sudden, you\u2019re moving toward isolation instead of toward oneness.\n\nI need to own that I was not as alert as I should have been to what was going on\u2014paying attention to the dynamics. It helps\u2014whether it\u2019s a wife or a husband\u2014it helps to give us a little \u201cHeads up. This is important. I\u2019m trying to move beyond the surface to talk about what\u2019s really in my heart here.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I do think it also gets into the <em>fear<\/em> of confession. Define \u201cconfession,\u201d because it\u2019s really at the heart of why you wanted to write this book\u2014to talk about confession and repentance\u2014and then, talk about, \u201cOkay; if this is what it looks like, how do we get over that fear?\u201d\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> First, I think it\u2019s helpful to have a definition of repentance. When we talk about repentance, we\u2019re talking about something that happens between us and God. Repentance really means \u201cto turn,\u201d\u2014to turn the other direction. We\u2019re going in one direction, away from God; and when we repent, we\u2019re turning around and walking in the other direction. We confess our sins to God first and seek His forgiveness, which He has promised us and already given us in Christ\u2014in His life, death, and resurrection\u2014the finished work that He did on our behalf.\n\nThen, after we have repented and confessed our sin to Him, we have the opportunity to confess sin to one another. I want to make sure we have that in place first; because I can confess my sin to you, and you can\u2019t forgive me in the same way that God can. You cannot absolve me or give me that assurance that I am forgiven that God can, because my sin isn\u2019t before you as much as it is before God.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What does that look like? You know, a lot of times, people will go to God and say, \u201cI\u2019m sorry for this.\u201d Do you think confession is deeper than that?\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> Yes; one of the things I try to get into in the book is getting to the <em>root<\/em> of the problem; because a lot of times, what I\u2019m going to confess is: \u201cI yelled at my child,\u201d or \u201cI had this really negative thought about this person.\u201d But what you\u2019ll notice, when you look at Psalm 51 of David, is that he doesn\u2019t confess murder; he doesn\u2019t confess his sexual sin. He confesses the deeper root issues of his sin.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cAgainst You and You only have I sinned.\u201d\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> Yes; exactly. When we talk about repentance, we\u2019re not talking about just a laundry list\u2014you know, like in my childhood\u2014like, \u201cI\u2019m sorry I did this,\u201d and \u201c\u2026I did this,\u201d and \u201c\u2026I did this.\u201d\u00a0 It\u2019s: \u201cLord, reveal what\u2019s in my heart. What\u2019s the real root? Where am I not believing that You\u2019re good enough, and I\u2019m trying to seek things on my own that are not things that You\u2019re giving me?\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This was the paradigm shift of confession for me. Confession is really agreeing with God that what He says is true.\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We tend to think confession is the laundry list of: \u201cI did this wrong,\u201d \u201cI did this wrong,\u201d which is a part of it. But if you don\u2019t get to the point, where you say, \u201c<em>This<\/em> is God\u2019s way; <em>this<\/em> is what God wants; <em>this<\/em> is the way I should be walking, and my behavior is out of sync with what God wants.\u201d It\u2019s not just: \u201cI\u2019m sorry I did this wrong\u201d; it is: \u201cHere\u2019s what God wants; here\u2019s my behavior\u2014they don\u2019t match up.\u201d Now, we can go, \u201cI regret that my behavior does not match up with what God wants.\u201d\n\nAnd then, repentance is saying, \u201cI\u2019m going to turn from what I\u2019m doing and go in the direction of what God wants me to do and start living according to what God wants.\u201d They do go together. I think it\u2019s important for folks to recognize confession is not repentance.\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Because some people will say, \u201cI\u2019m sorry,\u201d and they will say, \u201cI repented.\u201d No; you didn\u2019t repent if you said you were sorry\u2014all you did was confess. That\u2019s halfway there; but until you say: \u201cI\u2019m sorry. I was wrong. Will you forgive me?\u201d and \u201cI want to live differently.\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> \u201cI want to turn.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cI want my behavior to look this way.\u201d <em>Now<\/em> you\u2019ve gotten to the point of repentance.\n\nThat\u2019s so important in a marriage relationship. If we are going to confess to one another and repent of our behavior, it\u2019s got to go beyond just: \u201cI\u2019m sorry I did this,\u201d and \u201cI was wrong\u201d; it\u2019s: \u201cMy behavior needs to be different.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It\u2019s deeper; it goes to the heart. When the heart is turned, you take a <em>totally<\/em> different path.\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> You know, I had childhood experiences that <em>terrified<\/em> me with confession. I had\u2014I was probably seven or eight years old, and we were leaving the church service. My dad noticed me stick a tissue\/a dirty tissue in the little space between the back and the seat of the pew. I didn\u2019t know he noticed.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, that\u2019s bad. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Catherine: <\/strong>Can you even imagine?!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wow.\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> I get home; and my dad calls me aside, and he holds out this tissue. He talks to me about someone\u2019s job is to clean this up, and this whole thing. The next day, I had to go to the church, apologize to the janitor, ask his forgiveness, and then help him the rest of the day clean the church.\n\nAs a kid, I\u2019m thinking: \u201cThis is absolutely the worst thing I have ever done in my life,\u201d and \u201cMy dad is the worst man in the world.\u201d [Laughter] And now, that I\u2019m a parent, I think it\u2019s genius\u2014you know?\u2014because what a watershed moment for me\u2014to realize that my thoughtlessness was affecting other people. What ended up happening is that I got to know this man, who cleaned our church every week, that I never paid attention to. There was a bond that was formed there and this relationship built.\n\nWe think confession means beating ourselves up, but confession is really meant to lead us to joy. There\u2019s a pastor, who has passed away, named Jack Miller, who wrote some books. He talked about this church in Uganda; and he said that there is\u2014that the congregation there had an unusual habit, where\u2014if they met someone on the street from their congregation, who looked depressed\u2014they would say: \u201cBrother, have you confessed your sin today? Have you seen the cross of Christ today?\u201d\n\nI think that <em>second<\/em> part is so important; because if we\u2019re just confessing our sin and dwelling on the things we\u2019ve done wrong\u2014but not taking them to the cross and experiencing the joy of forgiveness\u2014then we\u2019re missing the whole point. The point is to worship God for what He\u2019s done for us.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and not just the joy of knowing that God has forgiven you\u2014but this is where grace in the midst of relationships\u2014if you want to have real, you can\u2019t have real without grace; because if you try to be real in a place where there\u2019s no grace, nobody\u2019s going to open with that. In a marriage relationship, the reason we\u2019re not real with one another is because we <em>do<\/em> lack grace with one another.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And here\u2019s the amazing thing\u2014you\u2019ll <em>never<\/em>\u2014like that\u2019s an exaggeration\u2014you\u2019ll <em>probably<\/em> rarely get healed of that struggle.\n\nAnd back to what Bob, you said earlier\u2014if you go back\u2014I just pulled it up again\u2014James 5:16, which is really interesting what he says; it\u2019s almost like surprising\u2014he says: \u201cTherefore, confess your sins to <em>each other<\/em>.\u201d You expect him to say \u201c\u2026<em>to God<\/em>.\u201d\n\nIt\u2019s like, \u201cWell, wait\u2026to each other.\u201d It\u2019s almost assuming you\u2019ve already talked to God about this repentance. He says, \u201cConfess\u201d; and then look what he says: \u201cConfess your sins to each other, and pray for each other <em>so that<\/em>\u201d\u2014purpose\/result\u2014\u201cyou may be healed,\u201d\u2014which is really interesting to think\u2014because we\u2019ve done this; right? I\u2019ve confessed my sin to God; I repent with God\u2014it\u2019s a private thing. I\u2019ve got this gossip problem, or a money problem, or a porn problem: \u201cWe\u2019re good.\u201d And then, you fall again. I go back to God: \u201cWe\u2019re good.\u201d You fall again. It\u2019s like, \u201cI\u2019m not getting healed!\u201d I am forgiven\u2014we do confess, and we receive forgiveness\/grace from God.\n\nIt\u2019s interesting that James says, \u201cNo; the way to get healed is you\u2019ve got to bring a person in now.\u201d Again, it shouldn\u2019t be, \u201cO goodness; I have to tell <em>somebody<\/em>.\u201d No; it\u2019s like somebody you trust\/somebody you\u2019re in relationship with; and I am going to be honest with them\u2014say: \u201cI\u2019ve got a struggle that I\u2019ve talked to God about, but I\u2019m struggling with it still. Can you help me?\u201d What James is trying to say is\u2014there\u2019s a part of the human DNA that needs humanity\/community to get to <em>true<\/em> freedom and healing.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I talked with a pastor one time\u2014and this goes to your point that you made earlier, Dave\u2014he said, with that verse\u2014he said, when somebody comes to you and says, \u201cThere\u2019s something I need to confess,\u201d\u2014whenever they\u2019re done confessing, the next thing <em>you<\/em> need to be able to say is: \u201cYes; I\u2019ve struggled with that, maybe in a different way,\u201d or \u201c\u2026in a different\u2026\u201d In other words, for you to say, \u201cOh; huh,\u201d\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u201cToo bad for you!\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014all of a sudden, no healing; it\u2019s going to shut down.\n\nAs we hear one another\u2019s confessions, we have to enter into that. It\u2019s the confessing to one another that <em>builds<\/em> the safety.\n\nHere\u2019s where I love what Matt Chandler says\u2014he says: \u201cIn our church,\u201d\u2014he says\u2014\u201cit\u2019s okay not to be okay. It\u2019s just not okay to <em>stay<\/em> there.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It\u2019s okay not to be okay\u2014I can say, \u201cI\u2019m not okay,\u201d and everybody\u2019s going to go: \u201cYes; we get that. We\u2019re not okay either.\u201d But now, we can\u2019t just <em>stay<\/em> there and think, \u201cNow, that we\u2019ve confessed it, everything\u2019s good,\u201d\u2014no. That\u2019s the repentance part of this\u2014that\u2019s where being real works its way out; right?\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> Yes; absolutely. I mean, you look at 1 John 1 and the fellowship that we have is from walking in the light. John is very clear: \u201cIf you say you have no sin, then you\u2019re lying, and you make God a liar.\u201d For us to sit there in silence, and not be able to say, \u201cYes; I\u2019m struggling too,\u201d\u2014maybe with something different\u2014we\u2019re missing the opportunity to fellowship with each other by being in the light together.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> While I listen to us, I\u2019m just thinking, for me as a woman, how important it is to set an atmosphere of love and grace; and also, to probe\u2014to ask God\u2014like, \u201cGod, how can I ask my husband questions that don\u2019t make him feel insecure or like he\u2019s in trouble, but wanting to know him and wanting to know his heart?\u201d Sometimes, it takes someone in the family taking the initiative of first going to God: \u201cGod, help me to do this. How can we go deeper in our love relationship with one another?\u201d\n\nThat\u2019s where the first place it goes is God\u2014being intimate with Him\/knowing Him\u2014that\u2019s where it starts. Then, we can ask Him for wisdom, \u201cFather, how does it look for us to go there, as a family?\u201d\u2014that we offer grace to each other when things are exposed that may be hard to hear.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Catherine, I think our listeners can probably tell that just this conversation around this subject has\u2014I mean, there\u2019s been a lot of back and forth\/a lot of dialogue. You\u2019ve scratched the surface of something that I think is the longing of every human heart. It takes time; and it takes intentionality; and it takes an atmosphere of grace. But this is what we want, and the joy and the reward of it is so profound.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Let me add this; I would <em>love<\/em> to add this, because I would like everyone to think this\u2014and it\u2019s in your book. In terms of being real, here\u2019s what we do\u2014we wait for somebody else. I would say: \u201c<em>You <\/em>initiate it. <em>You<\/em> go first, and watch what happens.\u201d\n\nYour dad <em>modeled<\/em> that for you\u2014we were talking about that earlier. It\u2019s like: \u201cWow; what a model!\u201d I want to be that dad\/that man. I want every person to think: \u201cI\u2019m not going to wait. I\u2019m going to confess and repent. I\u2019m going to lead the way.\u201d I\u2019m telling you\u2014it\u2019s a magnet. People are <em>drawn<\/em> to realness, because it\u2019s the heart of God.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, let\u2019s hope people will rally around the book, <em>Real<\/em>\u2014read it together and, then, say to each other, \u201cOkay; who wants to go first? I will,\u201d\u2014right?\u2014because you don\u2019t ask who wants to go first; you volunteer it; you model it; you step out; <em>you<\/em> risk. It may be that the group looks at you and goes, \u201cOh, you\u2019re weird.\u201d Okay; go find another group; right?\n\nNow, if it\u2019s your family, you can\u2019t go find another group; [Laughter] you have to stick with the ones who brought you. But maybe you try it again the next night; and after a while, some of the ice starts to melt and people go, \u201cI can really be real, and I\u2019m not going to get in trouble; and you\u2019re still going to accept me and love me.\u201d\n\nThank you for writing this book.\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> Thank you so much. I\u2019ve learned a lot just being with you today.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, it\u2019s been great to have you here. I do hope listeners will get a copy of your book, <em>Real: The Surprising Secret to Deeper Relationships,<\/em> by Catherine Parks. We have it in our FamilyLife Resource Center. You can order the book from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order: 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nYou know, I\u2019m still thinking about this concept of real relationships, especially in the context of marriage. David Robbins, the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> is with us, again, today. Hey, David.\n\n<strong>David:<\/strong> Hey, Bob.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is something\u2014if we want to get to oneness in marriage, we have to get past the fear, and have the grace, to be real with one another; don\u2019t we?\n\n<strong>David: <\/strong>Yes; with our spouse and with, I think, other close friends, who will really speak grace and truth into our lives. The whole conversation takes me back to a park bench in Pisa, Italy, around two-and-a-half decades ago. It was the first time I ever asked another person\u2014and he was somebody I trusted\u2014and I took the risk to ask, \u201cAre there any blind spots or growth areas you think I don\u2019t see?\u201d\n\nI wanted it; but then, what came was something that really led me on a growth path. My friend went ahead to continue and share that people respected me, but they didn\u2019t think I was real. They didn\u2019t see me struggle ever. He\u2019s had people say to him, \u201cHey, I\u2019m coming to you\u2014not David\u2014because I don\u2019t feel like David\u2019s very safe to go to.\u201d That conversation was, sure, hard to hear. I was ready to hear something. I don\u2019t know if I was ready to hear\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014\u201c\u2026wounds of a friend.\u201d\n\n<strong>David:<\/strong> Right; but it had a long-term effect on my life. It was the beginning of a journey of: \u201cHow <em>do<\/em> I project a false self? What are ways that I\u2019m inauthentic to other friends around me?\u201d\n\nI began to grow in that\/began to value that. I began to realize that risky conversations actually lead to greater closeness and togetherness. Certainly, with a spouse, it\u2019s essential; I mean, it is what leads to that oneness. Being able to have those honest conversations that lead to grace, and truth, and formation in Jesus\u2014that leads us closer together.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We used to call people like that \u201cposers.\u201d And in marriage, we can be posers with one another. I think what you\u2019re exhorting us to\u2014what Catherine has exhorted us to today\u2014is it\u2019s time to drop the masks and be real, like you, David.\n\n<strong>David: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>In fact, let me be real with listeners, here, for just a minute. Here, at FamilyLife, our mission\/our goal is to bring practical biblical help and hope to marriages and families every day. This program is committed to helping to effectively develop godly marriages and families. You make that possible when you, as a listener, step up and become a financial supporter of this ministry. You either make a one-time donation, or you become a monthly Legacy Partner.\n\nDuring the month of May, we\u2019ve had some friends of the ministry, who have come along and said, \u201cWe\u2019d like to incentivize\/we\u2019d like to motivate <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners to join the team and help this ministry continue to reach more and more people, regularly, with biblical help and hope for their marriage and family.\u201d What they\u2019ve agreed to do is match every donation we receive this month, dollar for dollar, up to a total of $550,000.\n\nSo, if you go online today\u2014or call us and say, \u201cI want to give $50\u201d\u2014that will release $50 from the matching-gift fund; and your donation will be doubled. If you sign up and become a Legacy Partner today and say, \u201cWe want to donate $30 a month,\u201d or \u201c\u2026$50 a month,\u201d\u2014whatever it is that you want to do. Every month, for the next year, when you make a donation, your donation will be doubled; so your entire year\u2019s worth of giving will be matched.\n\nIn addition, if you become a Legacy Partner today, we\u2019re going to send you a gift card so that you, as a couple\u2014or a couple you know\u2014can attend an upcoming <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway as our guests. It\u2019s our \u201cThank you,\u201d for becoming a regular financial supporter of this ministry.\n\nThe \u201cbeing real\u201d part is: \u201cWe need your help! The cost of syndicating this radio program is not completely covered by our Legacy Partners. That\u2019s why we need more of you to join the team and be part of that group.\u201d If you\u2019re a long-time listener\u2014if this program is having an impact in your marriage and in your family\u2014would you consider either a one-time gift or becoming a Legacy Partner? You can do either of those when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com; or call us if you have any questions, or you\u2019d like to sign up by phone\/make a gift by phone. The number is 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nNow, tomorrow, we want to talk about how to tame the tongue: your tongue\/your kid\u2019s tongue. I\u2019m talking about their speech\u2014about the things that you say that you wish you hadn\u2019t said; the things that they say that you wish they wouldn\u2019t say. How do we help correct bad speech?\u2014sinful speech in ourselves and in our kids. Ginger Hubbard\u2019s going to be here to help us with that. I hope you can tune in as well.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. 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});\";s:18:\"current_block_list\";a:17:{i:0;s:14:\"uagb\/container\";i:1;s:12:\"core\/heading\";i:2;s:9:\"core\/html\";i:3;s:10:\"core\/group\";i:6;s:21:\"uagb\/advanced-heading\";i:7;s:14:\"uagb\/separator\";i:8;s:14:\"uagb\/icon-list\";i:9;s:20:\"uagb\/icon-list-child\";i:10;s:11:\"core\/search\";i:13;s:18:\"core\/legacy-widget\";i:16;s:10:\"uagb\/image\";i:17;s:17:\"core\/social-links\";i:18;s:16:\"core\/social-link\";i:19;s:14:\"core\/paragraph\";i:20;s:30:\"meta-box\/fl-conditional-blocks\";i:21;s:12:\"uagb\/buttons\";i:22;s:18:\"uagb\/buttons-child\";}s:8:\"uag_flag\";b:1;s:11:\"uag_version\";i:1776462354;s:6:\"gfonts\";a:1:{s:7:\"Default\";a:2:{s:10:\"fontfamily\";s:7:\"Default\";s:12:\"fontvariants\";a:0:{}}}s:10:\"gfonts_url\";s:71:\"\/\/fonts.googleapis.com\/css?family=Default&subset=latin&display=fallback\";s:12:\"gfonts_files\";a:0:{}s:14:\"uag_faq_layout\";b:0;}"]},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Catherine Parks believes that trust has to be established before a person can truly open up to another, and this applies to marriage. Ultimately our security must come from Christ, and not what others think.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-05-07.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We live in the Instagram<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> era. We try to make sure that the image of who we are\u2014not just the visual image, but the perception of who we are\u2014is well-manicured\/well-airbrushed. Catherine Parks says that inhibits real relationships with real, messy people just like us.\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> I have a very good friend, Amber, who would kind of encourage me to open up. She just loved me for <em>years<\/em> until I started to realize that, you know, there is so much joy and freedom in letting her know what was going on. Once I started doing that with friends, they started drawing me out, and saying: \u201cWhat <em>is<\/em> going on in your life?\u201d \u201cHow are you doing as a parent?\u201d I started to have the freedom to come out of that.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, May 7<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. What are the barriers that keep us from being honest and real with others, with friends, with our spouses? We\u2019re going to explore what real relationships look like today wit Catherine Parks. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. If there\u2019s a category of television programs, where the category name is the opposite of what the program is\u2014like if we said, \u201cIt\u2019s a comedy show,\u201d and then you tuned in and watched it, and you cried all the time, you would go, \u201cThey shouldn\u2019t call that comedy.\u201d There\u2019s this one category of TV, where it\u2019s just the opposite\u2014that\u2019s called reality television. [Laughter] And when you tune in to watch,\u2014[Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I didn\u2019t know where you were going, Bob.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Me neither.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014it\u2019s the exact <em>opposite. <\/em>You know, reality TV is the most manufactured thing there is out there.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong><em>Un<\/em>real.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>But we\u2019re talking about reality today; and the reason we\u2019re doing it is because Catherine Parks is joining us, again, on <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em> Welcome back.\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> Thanks.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Catherine is an author and has been with us before to talk about how you build a Christ-centered wedding. Now, we\u2019re talking about how you have a level of relationship in your marriage and in your family, and in all your relationships, that gets past the surface and goes to reality.\n\nDave and Ann, you know, when we talk about communication at the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage getaway, there\u2019s this pyramid that we talk about, where you go from just clich\u00e9 communication and you move down\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014Level One.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right\u2014from clich\u00e9, to facts, to opinions, and then you get to your feelings; and now, you get to \u201cHere\u2019s who I really am.\u201d\n\nReal relationships should be with a limited number of people. There\u2019s discretion that needs to be involved in being the kind of transparent you\u2019re talking about us being.\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> Yes; absolutely. I man, there\u2019s a trust that has to come there before you can open up with someone. A lot of times, that\u2019s time spent. Unfortunately, from Genesis 3 on, we\u2019ve been afraid to be who we really are and to show\u2014you know, from Adam and Eve trying to cover up with fig leaves and hiding from God.\n\nI love my husband, but I still feel that need to cover up and not to let him in. That\u2019s someone I\u2019ve known\u2014you know, we\u2019ve been married for almost 14 years. There\u2019s time and trust that\u2019s necessary for a lot of these things to happen.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Can we talk about that? Talk about marriage and realness in marriage. We got married because we wanted transparency and intimacy. We wanted to be known and loved at the same time. We wanted somebody who would know us, at our core, and would still love us. I think that\u2019s the longing of every human heart.\n\nBut then, you get married; and you feel like, \u201c I can\u2019t be real; because if you know the real me, you won\u2019t love the real me.\u201d Did you feel that, as a young wife?\n\n<strong>Catherine: <\/strong>Yes; I mean, just on a very surface level. When we got married, my husband picked out the apartment without me seeing it\u2014that we were going to live in\u2014because I was in another state. He did a great job finding a low-cost apartment. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I can see where this is going!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Aw, that\u2019s not good.\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> I <em>loved<\/em> my husband, and I loved being married; but you know, I wanted to make this little apartment our home. And there were roaches crawling out of the cabinets every time I opened them. For the first week of marriage, I just cried myself to sleep every night; because I was afraid to let him know that I was failing in my role as his wife. You know, I put all these expectations on myself and all of these assumptions on him and what his response would be.\n\nInstead of having an open conversation with him about, \u201cI love you, and I know you did your best\u2026\u201d\u2014any of those things\u2014I just stuffed it all down inside of me. That\u2019s kind of a silly example, but there are things like that still that I do. A lot of times it <em>is<\/em> <em>my<\/em> assumption about what he\u2019s going to think.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Talk to the woman, who\u2019s out there, saying: \u201cI <em>long<\/em> for this in my marriage relationship; I <em>long<\/em> for my husband to be real. I <em>long<\/em> for him to want to <em>know<\/em> me, and he just won\u2019t go there.\u201d How would you encourage her?\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> I mean, the first thing is\u2014that\u2019s an expectation that you have to give to the Lord; because when you put that on your spouse, you\u2019re setting both of you up for failure. It\u2019s a hope that is right to have; but ultimately, we know that the Lord is the only One who can truly satisfy the needs that we have. Being able to give those desires to Him and pray for that to happen\u2014I think the Holy Spirit is perfectly capable of doing that.\n\nI, also, think we assume that the other person won\u2019t want something; because we\u2019ve never broached the subject.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good point.\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> The first step, I think, after praying is just to say: \u201cYou know, I\u2019d like to be able to talk to you about some things,\u201d and \u201cI\u2019d like for you to listen and for us to be able to pray together,\u201d\u2014inviting them into that. That\u2019s what it took for me\u2014was someone inviting me into something I would never have done on my own.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I don\u2019t remember a specific time, but I know this happened early in our marriage\u2014when Mary Ann would start to have a conversation with me at that level of intimacy, where there\u2019s transparency and there\u2019s reality going on\u2014but because she didn\u2019t start the conversation by saying: \u201cI want to talk to you about something that\u2019s really important,\u201d and \u201cI\u2019d like you to listen carefully,\u201d I thought it was just kind of a normal, surface-level conversation. She\u2019s baring her heart about something, and I\u2019m kind of watching ESPN out of the corner of my eye.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, Bob!\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t know! Nobody told me, \u201cOh, we\u2019re having one of <em>those<\/em> kinds of conversations.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What would\u2019ve made you know?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If she had said: \u201cHey, there\u2019s something I want to talk to you about,\u201d and \u201cThis is important to me. When would be a good time for us to talk, where I could get your full attention?\u201d rather than to just start having it.\n\nBecause here\u2019s what happened\u2014Mary Ann would start having that; and I would not engage at the level of intimacy that she was looking for, where I was really listening, and nodding, and caring about what she was saying. Then she\u2019d go away and say: \u201cWell, I\u2019m never trying that again. It doesn\u2019t do me any good to bare my soul. He doesn\u2019t care.\u201d All of a sudden, you\u2019re moving toward isolation instead of toward oneness.\n\nI need to own that I was not as alert as I should have been to what was going on\u2014paying attention to the dynamics. It helps\u2014whether it\u2019s a wife or a husband\u2014it helps to give us a little \u201cHeads up. This is important. I\u2019m trying to move beyond the surface to talk about what\u2019s really in my heart here.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I do think it also gets into the <em>fear<\/em> of confession. Define \u201cconfession,\u201d because it\u2019s really at the heart of why you wanted to write this book\u2014to talk about confession and repentance\u2014and then, talk about, \u201cOkay; if this is what it looks like, how do we get over that fear?\u201d\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> First, I think it\u2019s helpful to have a definition of repentance. When we talk about repentance, we\u2019re talking about something that happens between us and God. Repentance really means \u201cto turn,\u201d\u2014to turn the other direction. We\u2019re going in one direction, away from God; and when we repent, we\u2019re turning around and walking in the other direction. We confess our sins to God first and seek His forgiveness, which He has promised us and already given us in Christ\u2014in His life, death, and resurrection\u2014the finished work that He did on our behalf.\n\nThen, after we have repented and confessed our sin to Him, we have the opportunity to confess sin to one another. I want to make sure we have that in place first; because I can confess my sin to you, and you can\u2019t forgive me in the same way that God can. You cannot absolve me or give me that assurance that I am forgiven that God can, because my sin isn\u2019t before you as much as it is before God.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> What does that look like? You know, a lot of times, people will go to God and say, \u201cI\u2019m sorry for this.\u201d Do you think confession is deeper than that?\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> Yes; one of the things I try to get into in the book is getting to the <em>root<\/em> of the problem; because a lot of times, what I\u2019m going to confess is: \u201cI yelled at my child,\u201d or \u201cI had this really negative thought about this person.\u201d But what you\u2019ll notice, when you look at Psalm 51 of David, is that he doesn\u2019t confess murder; he doesn\u2019t confess his sexual sin. He confesses the deeper root issues of his sin.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cAgainst You and You only have I sinned.\u201d\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> Yes; exactly. When we talk about repentance, we\u2019re not talking about just a laundry list\u2014you know, like in my childhood\u2014like, \u201cI\u2019m sorry I did this,\u201d and \u201c\u2026I did this,\u201d and \u201c\u2026I did this.\u201d\u00a0 It\u2019s: \u201cLord, reveal what\u2019s in my heart. What\u2019s the real root? Where am I not believing that You\u2019re good enough, and I\u2019m trying to seek things on my own that are not things that You\u2019re giving me?\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This was the paradigm shift of confession for me. Confession is really agreeing with God that what He says is true.\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We tend to think confession is the laundry list of: \u201cI did this wrong,\u201d \u201cI did this wrong,\u201d which is a part of it. But if you don\u2019t get to the point, where you say, \u201c<em>This<\/em> is God\u2019s way; <em>this<\/em> is what God wants; <em>this<\/em> is the way I should be walking, and my behavior is out of sync with what God wants.\u201d It\u2019s not just: \u201cI\u2019m sorry I did this wrong\u201d; it is: \u201cHere\u2019s what God wants; here\u2019s my behavior\u2014they don\u2019t match up.\u201d Now, we can go, \u201cI regret that my behavior does not match up with what God wants.\u201d\n\nAnd then, repentance is saying, \u201cI\u2019m going to turn from what I\u2019m doing and go in the direction of what God wants me to do and start living according to what God wants.\u201d They do go together. I think it\u2019s important for folks to recognize confession is not repentance.\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Because some people will say, \u201cI\u2019m sorry,\u201d and they will say, \u201cI repented.\u201d No; you didn\u2019t repent if you said you were sorry\u2014all you did was confess. That\u2019s halfway there; but until you say: \u201cI\u2019m sorry. I was wrong. Will you forgive me?\u201d and \u201cI want to live differently.\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> \u201cI want to turn.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cI want my behavior to look this way.\u201d <em>Now<\/em> you\u2019ve gotten to the point of repentance.\n\nThat\u2019s so important in a marriage relationship. If we are going to confess to one another and repent of our behavior, it\u2019s got to go beyond just: \u201cI\u2019m sorry I did this,\u201d and \u201cI was wrong\u201d; it\u2019s: \u201cMy behavior needs to be different.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> It\u2019s deeper; it goes to the heart. When the heart is turned, you take a <em>totally<\/em> different path.\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> You know, I had childhood experiences that <em>terrified<\/em> me with confession. I had\u2014I was probably seven or eight years old, and we were leaving the church service. My dad noticed me stick a tissue\/a dirty tissue in the little space between the back and the seat of the pew. I didn\u2019t know he noticed.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Oh, that\u2019s bad. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Catherine: <\/strong>Can you even imagine?!\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Wow.\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> I get home; and my dad calls me aside, and he holds out this tissue. He talks to me about someone\u2019s job is to clean this up, and this whole thing. The next day, I had to go to the church, apologize to the janitor, ask his forgiveness, and then help him the rest of the day clean the church.\n\nAs a kid, I\u2019m thinking: \u201cThis is absolutely the worst thing I have ever done in my life,\u201d and \u201cMy dad is the worst man in the world.\u201d [Laughter] And now, that I\u2019m a parent, I think it\u2019s genius\u2014you know?\u2014because what a watershed moment for me\u2014to realize that my thoughtlessness was affecting other people. What ended up happening is that I got to know this man, who cleaned our church every week, that I never paid attention to. There was a bond that was formed there and this relationship built.\n\nWe think confession means beating ourselves up, but confession is really meant to lead us to joy. There\u2019s a pastor, who has passed away, named Jack Miller, who wrote some books. He talked about this church in Uganda; and he said that there is\u2014that the congregation there had an unusual habit, where\u2014if they met someone on the street from their congregation, who looked depressed\u2014they would say: \u201cBrother, have you confessed your sin today? Have you seen the cross of Christ today?\u201d\n\nI think that <em>second<\/em> part is so important; because if we\u2019re just confessing our sin and dwelling on the things we\u2019ve done wrong\u2014but not taking them to the cross and experiencing the joy of forgiveness\u2014then we\u2019re missing the whole point. The point is to worship God for what He\u2019s done for us.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and not just the joy of knowing that God has forgiven you\u2014but this is where grace in the midst of relationships\u2014if you want to have real, you can\u2019t have real without grace; because if you try to be real in a place where there\u2019s no grace, nobody\u2019s going to open with that. In a marriage relationship, the reason we\u2019re not real with one another is because we <em>do<\/em> lack grace with one another.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And here\u2019s the amazing thing\u2014you\u2019ll <em>never<\/em>\u2014like that\u2019s an exaggeration\u2014you\u2019ll <em>probably<\/em> rarely get healed of that struggle.\n\nAnd back to what Bob, you said earlier\u2014if you go back\u2014I just pulled it up again\u2014James 5:16, which is really interesting what he says; it\u2019s almost like surprising\u2014he says: \u201cTherefore, confess your sins to <em>each other<\/em>.\u201d You expect him to say \u201c\u2026<em>to God<\/em>.\u201d\n\nIt\u2019s like, \u201cWell, wait\u2026to each other.\u201d It\u2019s almost assuming you\u2019ve already talked to God about this repentance. He says, \u201cConfess\u201d; and then look what he says: \u201cConfess your sins to each other, and pray for each other <em>so that<\/em>\u201d\u2014purpose\/result\u2014\u201cyou may be healed,\u201d\u2014which is really interesting to think\u2014because we\u2019ve done this; right? I\u2019ve confessed my sin to God; I repent with God\u2014it\u2019s a private thing. I\u2019ve got this gossip problem, or a money problem, or a porn problem: \u201cWe\u2019re good.\u201d And then, you fall again. I go back to God: \u201cWe\u2019re good.\u201d You fall again. It\u2019s like, \u201cI\u2019m not getting healed!\u201d I am forgiven\u2014we do confess, and we receive forgiveness\/grace from God.\n\nIt\u2019s interesting that James says, \u201cNo; the way to get healed is you\u2019ve got to bring a person in now.\u201d Again, it shouldn\u2019t be, \u201cO goodness; I have to tell <em>somebody<\/em>.\u201d No; it\u2019s like somebody you trust\/somebody you\u2019re in relationship with; and I am going to be honest with them\u2014say: \u201cI\u2019ve got a struggle that I\u2019ve talked to God about, but I\u2019m struggling with it still. Can you help me?\u201d What James is trying to say is\u2014there\u2019s a part of the human DNA that needs humanity\/community to get to <em>true<\/em> freedom and healing.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I talked with a pastor one time\u2014and this goes to your point that you made earlier, Dave\u2014he said, with that verse\u2014he said, when somebody comes to you and says, \u201cThere\u2019s something I need to confess,\u201d\u2014whenever they\u2019re done confessing, the next thing <em>you<\/em> need to be able to say is: \u201cYes; I\u2019ve struggled with that, maybe in a different way,\u201d or \u201c\u2026in a different\u2026\u201d In other words, for you to say, \u201cOh; huh,\u201d\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>\u201cToo bad for you!\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014all of a sudden, no healing; it\u2019s going to shut down.\n\nAs we hear one another\u2019s confessions, we have to enter into that. It\u2019s the confessing to one another that <em>builds<\/em> the safety.\n\nHere\u2019s where I love what Matt Chandler says\u2014he says: \u201cIn our church,\u201d\u2014he says\u2014\u201cit\u2019s okay not to be okay. It\u2019s just not okay to <em>stay<\/em> there.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It\u2019s okay not to be okay\u2014I can say, \u201cI\u2019m not okay,\u201d and everybody\u2019s going to go: \u201cYes; we get that. We\u2019re not okay either.\u201d But now, we can\u2019t just <em>stay<\/em> there and think, \u201cNow, that we\u2019ve confessed it, everything\u2019s good,\u201d\u2014no. That\u2019s the repentance part of this\u2014that\u2019s where being real works its way out; right?\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> Yes; absolutely. I mean, you look at 1 John 1 and the fellowship that we have is from walking in the light. John is very clear: \u201cIf you say you have no sin, then you\u2019re lying, and you make God a liar.\u201d For us to sit there in silence, and not be able to say, \u201cYes; I\u2019m struggling too,\u201d\u2014maybe with something different\u2014we\u2019re missing the opportunity to fellowship with each other by being in the light together.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> While I listen to us, I\u2019m just thinking, for me as a woman, how important it is to set an atmosphere of love and grace; and also, to probe\u2014to ask God\u2014like, \u201cGod, how can I ask my husband questions that don\u2019t make him feel insecure or like he\u2019s in trouble, but wanting to know him and wanting to know his heart?\u201d Sometimes, it takes someone in the family taking the initiative of first going to God: \u201cGod, help me to do this. How can we go deeper in our love relationship with one another?\u201d\n\nThat\u2019s where the first place it goes is God\u2014being intimate with Him\/knowing Him\u2014that\u2019s where it starts. Then, we can ask Him for wisdom, \u201cFather, how does it look for us to go there, as a family?\u201d\u2014that we offer grace to each other when things are exposed that may be hard to hear.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Catherine, I think our listeners can probably tell that just this conversation around this subject has\u2014I mean, there\u2019s been a lot of back and forth\/a lot of dialogue. You\u2019ve scratched the surface of something that I think is the longing of every human heart. It takes time; and it takes intentionality; and it takes an atmosphere of grace. But this is what we want, and the joy and the reward of it is so profound.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Let me add this; I would <em>love<\/em> to add this, because I would like everyone to think this\u2014and it\u2019s in your book. In terms of being real, here\u2019s what we do\u2014we wait for somebody else. I would say: \u201c<em>You <\/em>initiate it. <em>You<\/em> go first, and watch what happens.\u201d\n\nYour dad <em>modeled<\/em> that for you\u2014we were talking about that earlier. It\u2019s like: \u201cWow; what a model!\u201d I want to be that dad\/that man. I want every person to think: \u201cI\u2019m not going to wait. I\u2019m going to confess and repent. I\u2019m going to lead the way.\u201d I\u2019m telling you\u2014it\u2019s a magnet. People are <em>drawn<\/em> to realness, because it\u2019s the heart of God.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, let\u2019s hope people will rally around the book, <em>Real<\/em>\u2014read it together and, then, say to each other, \u201cOkay; who wants to go first? I will,\u201d\u2014right?\u2014because you don\u2019t ask who wants to go first; you volunteer it; you model it; you step out; <em>you<\/em> risk. It may be that the group looks at you and goes, \u201cOh, you\u2019re weird.\u201d Okay; go find another group; right?\n\nNow, if it\u2019s your family, you can\u2019t go find another group; [Laughter] you have to stick with the ones who brought you. But maybe you try it again the next night; and after a while, some of the ice starts to melt and people go, \u201cI can really be real, and I\u2019m not going to get in trouble; and you\u2019re still going to accept me and love me.\u201d\n\nThank you for writing this book.\n\n<strong>Catherine:<\/strong> Thank you so much. I\u2019ve learned a lot just being with you today.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, it\u2019s been great to have you here. I do hope listeners will get a copy of your book, <em>Real: The Surprising Secret to Deeper Relationships,<\/em> by Catherine Parks. We have it in our FamilyLife Resource Center. You can order the book from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order: 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nYou know, I\u2019m still thinking about this concept of real relationships, especially in the context of marriage. David Robbins, the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> is with us, again, today. Hey, David.\n\n<strong>David:<\/strong> Hey, Bob.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is something\u2014if we want to get to oneness in marriage, we have to get past the fear, and have the grace, to be real with one another; don\u2019t we?\n\n<strong>David: <\/strong>Yes; with our spouse and with, I think, other close friends, who will really speak grace and truth into our lives. The whole conversation takes me back to a park bench in Pisa, Italy, around two-and-a-half decades ago. It was the first time I ever asked another person\u2014and he was somebody I trusted\u2014and I took the risk to ask, \u201cAre there any blind spots or growth areas you think I don\u2019t see?\u201d\n\nI wanted it; but then, what came was something that really led me on a growth path. My friend went ahead to continue and share that people respected me, but they didn\u2019t think I was real. They didn\u2019t see me struggle ever. He\u2019s had people say to him, \u201cHey, I\u2019m coming to you\u2014not David\u2014because I don\u2019t feel like David\u2019s very safe to go to.\u201d That conversation was, sure, hard to hear. I was ready to hear something. I don\u2019t know if I was ready to hear\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014\u201c\u2026wounds of a friend.\u201d\n\n<strong>David:<\/strong> Right; but it had a long-term effect on my life. It was the beginning of a journey of: \u201cHow <em>do<\/em> I project a false self? What are ways that I\u2019m inauthentic to other friends around me?\u201d\n\nI began to grow in that\/began to value that. I began to realize that risky conversations actually lead to greater closeness and togetherness. Certainly, with a spouse, it\u2019s essential; I mean, it is what leads to that oneness. Being able to have those honest conversations that lead to grace, and truth, and formation in Jesus\u2014that leads us closer together.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We used to call people like that \u201cposers.\u201d And in marriage, we can be posers with one another. I think what you\u2019re exhorting us to\u2014what Catherine has exhorted us to today\u2014is it\u2019s time to drop the masks and be real, like you, David.\n\n<strong>David: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>In fact, let me be real with listeners, here, for just a minute. Here, at FamilyLife, our mission\/our goal is to bring practical biblical help and hope to marriages and families every day. This program is committed to helping to effectively develop godly marriages and families. You make that possible when you, as a listener, step up and become a financial supporter of this ministry. You either make a one-time donation, or you become a monthly Legacy Partner.\n\nDuring the month of May, we\u2019ve had some friends of the ministry, who have come along and said, \u201cWe\u2019d like to incentivize\/we\u2019d like to motivate <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners to join the team and help this ministry continue to reach more and more people, regularly, with biblical help and hope for their marriage and family.\u201d What they\u2019ve agreed to do is match every donation we receive this month, dollar for dollar, up to a total of $550,000.\n\nSo, if you go online today\u2014or call us and say, \u201cI want to give $50\u201d\u2014that will release $50 from the matching-gift fund; and your donation will be doubled. If you sign up and become a Legacy Partner today and say, \u201cWe want to donate $30 a month,\u201d or \u201c\u2026$50 a month,\u201d\u2014whatever it is that you want to do. Every month, for the next year, when you make a donation, your donation will be doubled; so your entire year\u2019s worth of giving will be matched.\n\nIn addition, if you become a Legacy Partner today, we\u2019re going to send you a gift card so that you, as a couple\u2014or a couple you know\u2014can attend an upcoming <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway as our guests. It\u2019s our \u201cThank you,\u201d for becoming a regular financial supporter of this ministry.\n\nThe \u201cbeing real\u201d part is: \u201cWe need your help! The cost of syndicating this radio program is not completely covered by our Legacy Partners. That\u2019s why we need more of you to join the team and be part of that group.\u201d If you\u2019re a long-time listener\u2014if this program is having an impact in your marriage and in your family\u2014would you consider either a one-time gift or becoming a Legacy Partner? You can do either of those when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com; or call us if you have any questions, or you\u2019d like to sign up by phone\/make a gift by phone. The number is 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nNow, tomorrow, we want to talk about how to tame the tongue: your tongue\/your kid\u2019s tongue. I\u2019m talking about their speech\u2014about the things that you say that you wish you hadn\u2019t said; the things that they say that you wish they wouldn\u2019t say. How do we help correct bad speech?\u2014sinful speech in ourselves and in our kids. Ginger Hubbard\u2019s going to be here to help us with that. I hope you can tune in as well.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. 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