{"id":304968,"date":"2019-04-18T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2019-04-18T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/his-porn-my-pride-our-problem\/"},"modified":"2019-04-18T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2019-04-18T15:00:00","slug":"his-porn-my-pride-our-problem","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/his-porn-my-pride-our-problem\/","title":{"rendered":"His Porn, My Pride, Our Problem"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>He used porn, she used &#8220;helpful&#8221; words; both behaviors contributed to a marriage on the rocks. Meg Miller tells her story to Kim Anthony.<br \/>\nShow Notes and Resources<\/p>\n<p> \tNEW PODCAST Unfavorable Odds with Kim Anthony<br \/>\n \tFamilyLife launches a new Podcast Network<br \/>\n \tLearn more about Meg S. Miller at\u00a0www.benefitofthedebt.com.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>He used porn, she used &#8220;helpful&#8221; words; both behaviors contributed to a marriage on the rocks. Meg Miller tells her story to Kim Anthony.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-04-18.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:29:59","filesize":"27.46M","filesize_raw":"28788900","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2908,2844,2831],"tags":[6582,6583,2989,4251],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[9519,8863],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-304968","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-forgiveness","category-pornography","category-wives","tag-critical-wife","tag-having-a-sharp-tongue","tag-pornography","tag-pride","cwp_profile-kim-anthony","cwp_profile-meg-miller","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/304968\/his-porn-my-pride-our-problem","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/304968\/his-porn-my-pride-our-problem","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"m2LyPSWdGW\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/his-porn-my-pride-our-problem\/\">His Porn, My Pride, Our Problem<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/his-porn-my-pride-our-problem\/embed\/#?secret=m2LyPSWdGW\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;His Porn, My Pride, Our Problem&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"m2LyPSWdGW\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-04-18.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-04-18.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>When Meg Miller\u2019s husband confessed to her that he\u2019d been looking at pornography, he said he had a weight lifted from his shoulders. Meg did not have that same kind of experience.\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>He was so excited to help other guys. He was ready to become the man of God that God had always wanted him to be, and he was so excited to have this behind him. I, on the other hand, was just devastated. I was repulsed; I was disgusted; I was confused. I wanted to let him bring all of his confessions out, but I certainly didn\u2019t want to stick around and be with a guy who was doing this.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, April 18<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. Meg Miller says her husband\u2019s involvement with pornography was ultimately what God used to <em>save<\/em> their marriage. We\u2019ll hear her story today. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I have kind of a loaded\u2014this is a hard ball; and I\u2019m going to throw it at\u2014I\u2019m going to throw it at you, Ann, to start this off.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Okay.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Good; throw it at Ann! I don\u2019t want any hard balls. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is a question that I feel like I have to put some disclaimers around this. We would agree that if a husband\u2014this could be a husband or a wife, but we\u2019ll just say a husband\u2014is involved in looking at pornography. We would say the responsibility for that choice is all on him; right?\u2014a hundred percent on him\u2014that he\u2019s doing that.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>He needs to own\u2014that\u2019s all on him.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes; yes.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So the hard ball question is: \u201cCouldn\u2019t his wife have had <em>some<\/em> influence in the fact that he\u2019s over there, looking at porn?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Mmmm\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes! You understand the\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes!\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014because we\u2019re in a tricky area. We don\u2019t want to do anything to lessen the full culpability of the man, who is off looking at porn; but when a husband and wife are one, there can be oneness factors that can <em>lead<\/em> either of them into a sinful choice; right?\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I can\u2019t wait to hear my wife\u2019s answer to that question.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Well, I was going to say\u2014this happened to Dave and I, where he came to me and told me he had an issue, <em>years ago<\/em>, when we were first married. If someone would have said to me, \u201cAnn, you probably have a part in this; and maybe you do,\u201d and \u201cDon\u2019t you have your own sin?\u201d I would have probably slapped you in the face. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>She is <em>not<\/em> kidding. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>But had I been able to think through it a little bit\u2014and go a little deeper and talk to God about it\u2014I would really ponder that, because <em>none<\/em> of us are without sin.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>And yet, you know, I\u2019m the guy she\u2019s talking about that struggled, decades ago. I would tell you it had nothing to do with her\u2014I said that to Ann. I mean, one of the darkest days of my life was when I confessed to Ann my struggle. Of course, <em>immediately<\/em>, she thought it was her fault or, at least, a part of her fault. I really, at that time, felt like: \u201cNo; it has nothing to do with you. This is my struggle.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>But I had my own sin. I had my own things that I struggled with, but I just felt like his were so much worse.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right; well, that\u2019s the subject we\u2019re going to dive into today as we listen to a portion of Episode 1 of a new podcast that FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> has put together. It\u2019s called <em>Unfavorable Odds<\/em> with Kim Anthony. Kim is sharing stories of people, who have faced dark moments and dark days in marriages and in families, and who have found how to overcome those dark moments\/how to get back to victory in those moments.\n\nKim had the opportunity, in Episode 1 of her podcast, to talk to Meg Miller. Meg is the author of a book called <em>Benefit of the Debt<\/em>; and the subtitle is <em>How My Husband\u2019s Porn Problem Saved Our Marriage<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>That\u2019ll get your attention!\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>It [subtitle] said <em>Ruined<\/em>. She cut [line through the word] <em>Ruined<\/em> and wrote <em>Saved<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Wow.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We\u2019ll get a chance to hear, in this excerpt from the podcast, a little of Meg\u2019s story.\n\n[Podcast]\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>I thought it was a good marriage. We were happy-ish\/happy enough, but our definition of happiness might have been off.\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Well, there was something you said in the book\u2014you mentioned how, before you got married, you <em>expected<\/em> there to be problems. Why were you so sure about that?\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>The church has done a good job helping women prepare for differences in marriage: \u201cWe\u2019re not the same,\u201d\u2014you know\u2014\u201cDon\u2019t expect to change your future husband,\u201d\u2014stuff like that. So I knew there would be conflict. I almost even looked forward to it; because I\u2019m creative, and I could <em>figure<\/em> out how to handle it. I thought I was really brilliant.\n\nI can handle little differences; for example, if it\u2019s true that all men\u2014or 95 percent of men\u2014struggle with lust, I almost anticipated how we would handle that: \u201cWe will put some boundaries in place.\u201d I had a plan. [Laughter] Unfortunately, I took it the extra step and considered myself ready and self-sufficient in my own knowledge to handle these things.\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Wow. So, you walked into the marriage confident, <em>in spite<\/em> of your expectation that problems would occur?\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>Yes; I knew problems would occur. I had <em>no<\/em> idea how much it would hurt when problems actually did occur. He <em>wouldn\u2019t<\/em> bend to my brilliance, and he <em>wouldn\u2019t<\/em> take my advice and do things the way I said he should. That frustrated me. In fact, it was hurtful that he wouldn\u2019t do everything my way. [Laughter] So we settled into a little bit of a pattern, where I was frustrated with him often; and he would escape in his own way often.\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>So, take us to the point where you discovered his use of pornography.\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>He almost seemed to want to get caught, almost. He did not cover his trail\u2014he did not clear his browsing history. He almost seemed to be crying out for help. When I found his browsing history, I was crushed. I thought I was ready for this\u2014because it\u2019s so common, and I had heard that it\u2019s so common\u2014that I felt ready and I <em>wasn\u2019t<\/em>. I thought that I would be able to overcome it and not believe the lies that arrive as soon as that browsing history is exposed; for example, \u201cYou\u2019re not good enough,\u201d and \u201cHe\u2019s dirty,\u201d or \u201cHe\u2019s worth less because of this.\u201d Those kinds of lies creep in right away. I thought I was ready for them, because I had heard that it is such a common issue. My heart, as soon as I found it, betrayed that I was not ready for it.\n\nWhen I found evidence of his pornography use, I stopped looking. Now, this is uncommon; because a lot of women want to find out everything and see how bad it is. But I knew that if I did that, it would somehow take the privilege away from <em>him<\/em> of coming forward; because that is an experience he could use to heal. On the other hand, if I confronted him with every single thing that I had found, he would be tempted to hold back the stuff that I did not find, and I <em>knew<\/em> there would be something that I did not find.\n\nNo one was counseling me on this; I just felt a still, small voice that said: \u201cHang on. Don\u2019t go crazy. Let\u2019s give him the benefit of confessing.\u201d So I don\u2019t have to accuse him of everything.\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>What did that do to you, as a wife, to discover that your husband has been using pornography? What did that do to your emotions, your feelings about yourself, your feelings about him?\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>It is terrible; it is terrible. It\u2019s one of the <em>worst<\/em> feelings in the world. I would rather have a physical illness or something\u2014a tragedy from the a tree falling on the dog or something\u2014I\u2019d rather have some kind of unexplainable thing that does not pit us against one another, something that we could bind together and face together. This does the opposite\u2014pornography does the opposite\u2014and puts us on opposite sides of the problem, where he seems weak now; and he seems like an escapist.\n\nIt\u2019s confusing to me, first of all, because we had always been very open with each other; so suddenly, there are these secrets. It\u2019s also confusing to me because: \u201cWhy isn\u2019t our life good enough? Why do you need something else to get by?\u201d It\u2019s also confusing to me because: \u201cWhy <em>that<\/em>? Why would <em>that<\/em> comfort a guy?\u201d That\u2019s just a difference between many men and women. To me, other things comfort me; and if I need to escape, that\u2019s not where I\u2019m going.\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>So what did you <em>do<\/em>\u2014you and your husband do to seek help? How did you <em>strategize<\/em> towards healing?\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>He was repentant immediately. He was thankful that it was out in the light. He was probably healthier than I was, at that point; because: \u201cYay! Healing is on the way!\u201d He\u2019s optimistic\/encouraged; he felt connected. Secrets are out, so he felt relief. And he\u2019s a Christian, so he also felt forgiveness from the Lord. He and the Lord were tighter, now, than ever before. He was so excited to help other guys. He was ready to become the man of God that God had <em>always<\/em> wanted him to be, and he was so excited to have this behind him. I, on the other hand, was just devastated. I was repulsed; I was disgusted; I was confused. I wanted to let him bring all of his confessions out, but I certainly didn\u2019t want to stick around and be with a guy who was doing this.\n\nYou asked about the treatment that we <em>sought<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>We did go to couples\u2019 counseling. The couples\u2019 counselor told us: \u201cYou, Mr., you need to go to his group,\u201d and \u201cYou, Mrs., you should go to her group.\u201d It really struck me\u2014the difference\u2014when we came out of our groups: how sad I was after my group and how excited he was after his group. It was like we were going further and further away from each other in our own respective cocoons.\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Was your husband sensitive to how you were feeling, even though he was in this place that was much better than before?\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>He was sensitive. He would always ask me what I <em>need<\/em> to heal, and I didn\u2019t know. He would try, and I didn\u2019t know what I needed. I\u2019m so hurt; it\u2019s just so\u2014it\u2019s <em>not<\/em> getting better. I <em>felt<\/em> that hurt turning into resentment; and when that began, I started feeling <em>permanently<\/em> repulsed by him instead of just <em>temporarily<\/em> repulsed.\n\nI knew\u2014I got desperate\u2014I <em>knew<\/em> I had to find healing or we would be done, not because of his problem, but because of my unforgiveness. I couldn\u2019t figure it out.\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Wow.\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>And I knew forgiveness was a command, so I tried. I tried, tried, tried, tried. I said it over and over: \u201cI forgive you,\u201d \u201cI forgive you\u201d; but that hurt remained. The hurt was evidence of unforgiveness.\n\nWhen I begged God for answers\u2014and I did <em>not<\/em> let Him leave me alone until He did give me answers\u2014what He gave me was almost, at the time, felt like a change of subject. He showed me my husband\u2019s heart next to mine, and it was just as damaged. I wondered: \u201cWhere did all that damage come from? He couldn\u2019t be as damaged as me; that has to be hypothetical.\u201d The Holy Spirit was kind enough to say: \u201cSure. Go ahead; just explore it. Just consider it. What <em>if<\/em>\u2014what <em>if <\/em>your husband was as hurt as <em>you<\/em> are?\u201d\n\nI thought: \u201cWell, okay; I\u2019ll go with You there. I\u2019ll consider that.\u201d But what would be the source of that hurt? Where would he have gotten so hurt from? I was confused again. Very gently\u2014oh, so gently\u2014I ruled out one factor in his life after another, until the factor of my own presence in his life came into view. I was like, \u201cOkay; I\u2019ll examine myself as the source of Joe\u2019s hurt.\u201d <em>Everything<\/em> came into clear focus at that moment: \u201cIf I am responsible for his broken heart, then it would explain all the confusion\u2014all the confusion that I had had would be cleared up.\u201d\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Tell me how you went from God showing you that his heart is just as broken as yours to actually taking on the responsibility\u2014and please correct me if I\u2019m wrong; you can clarify for me\u2014but you said that you found that you were the <em>source<\/em> of his pain. Are you saying that you were the source of the pain that <em>led<\/em> him to using pornography?\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>No; I can say that I\u2019m the source of the pain that I saw in this insight\/in this revelation. I\u2019m the source of his hurt. What he does with that hurt is up to him, but I am\u00a0 not responsible for his actions. I am responsible for: \u201cWhat is the condition of his heart?\u201d\n\nWhen I realized I\u2019m responsible for the condition of his heart, that hurt that I was feeling, as the result of his pornography habit, instantly dissipated and was replaced with concern and regret\u2014not guilt and shame\u2014but regret: \u201cWhat can I do to make this right?!\u201d I was consumed with excitement and desire to make it right and to help him heal, because I knew what it felt like to be damaged.\n\nI didn\u2019t realize I was criticizing my husband as much as I was. For example, in the home, when I tell him how to do things, a little wound appears in his heart. \u201cI did not mean to hurt you, but when I tell you how to do everything, that starts to look like a lot of pain.\u201d Now, I\u2019m not saying that that pain causes him to sin, but I am saying that that pain is an issue. I\u2019m involved in that, and I can move toward that. That\u2019s something I can do\u2014in all the helplessness, I can move toward his pain and say, \u201cI did <em>not<\/em> know what I was doing,\u201d and that was <em>very<\/em> healing for both of us.\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Tell me how that critical spirit played out in your marriage. What did it look like?\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>Every day, there are <em>many<\/em> things that a couple has to talk about to run the household\u2014I call it household administration. A lot of the things are lessons learned; for example: \u201cWhen we get a little flock of backyard chickens, we should probably make sure they don\u2019t jump the fence and bother the neighbors,\u201d \u201cWe should also drop off the car to get the brakes fixed,\u201d \u201cDid you feed the dog?\u201d All these things\u2014they don\u2019t sound like criticism; do they?\n\nBut when you pile them on top\u2014one on top of another\u2014and you start saying, \u201cHey, you should have gotten the car in a little earlier\u201d; if you start criticizing your life in general, a husband often takes that as a direct assault on his character. Often, women\u2014we just think we\u2019re collaborating to run the house; but a man, after a full days\u2019 worth of collaborating, that can sound a lot like a drip on his performance.\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Is it possible that, in the marriage, he felt like you were controlling him; and his acting out through the use of pornography was possibly one of the only places he found that he had control over?\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>Yes; and it was a source of comfort for him, where I should have been the comfort, instead of his control. If I only have a certain number of words allotted to me every day, and I use most of them for household administration and control, then I haven\u2019t used them to comfort. I should be comforting my husband more than controlling him. Again, it doesn\u2019t sound like control, at the moment: \u201cI just have to get this stuff done.\u201d\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>So, tell me what the Lord has done in <em>your<\/em> life in the area of having a critical spirit.\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>Having a critical spirit is <em>not<\/em> a habit that I need to work on; it\u2019s a big debt I have incurred. What I mean by that is\u2014when I hurt someone, someone has to pay for that. Either my husband\u2019s going to <em>live<\/em> with that hurt every day\u2014like I was living with the hurt of his pornography use; I was paying his debt, one little bit at a time; and I would <em>never<\/em> have been able to pay it off by myself.\n\nIn the same way, when I criticize him, a debt is incurred; and I <em>cannot<\/em> make it right. I need a third party\u2014I need someone to pay that debt for me. I don\u2019t mean debt cancellation\u2014that\u2019s just changing the numbers\u2014I mean, someone has to go <em>pay<\/em>. Someone has to hurt on our behalf so that we don\u2019t have to.\n\nThankfully, Someone already has gone through all that on our behalf. The Lord Jesus died for me so that I don\u2019t have to go through this. He was beaten and betrayed\u2014that\u2019s how I felt\u2014I was beaten and betrayed by my husband\u2019s porn use. I do <em>not<\/em> have to go through that anymore\u2014not because I have done nothing wrong, which is the lie that I was believing before: \u201cI am better than this. I have done <em>nothing<\/em> wrong. My husband owes me fidelity,\u201d\u2014those are not the <em>entire<\/em> truth.\n\nThe entire truth is that Somebody has gone through this betrayal and abuse on my behalf so that, now, I can stand and say, \u201cI don\u2019t have to put up with that behavior anymore,\u201d\u2014not because I\u2019ve earned better\u2014but because Somebody\u2019s already gone through the trouble\/that difficulty, and the abuse, and betrayal on my behalf.\n\n[Studio]\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, we\u2019ve been listening to Meg Miller in an excerpt from Episode 1 of Kim Anthony\u2019s new podcast, which is called <em>Unfavorable Odds<\/em>. To hear her say, \u201cI\u2019m not owed fidelity,\u201d I\u2019m thinking, \u201cWell, sure you are!\u201d I mean, he promised fidelity when they stood at the altar and said, \u201cI do.\u201d This is kind of a tricky minefield to wind up in; but I think the heart of what Meg is trying to say here is: \u201cWe both have to acknowledge\u2014we come into marriage with our own stuff and our own junk. If you\u2019re the person, who\u2019s sitting with the log in your eye and looking at the speck in your spouse\u2019s eye, that\u2019s where the problem is\u201d; right?\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes; I\u2019m listening to the end of that and thinking, \u201cThe depth\/the maturity to be able to <em>not<\/em> demand fidelity\u2014I mean, she is\u2014but to be able to take her eyes off her husband and put them on the cross\u2014honestly, I\u2019m like, \u2018I can\u2019t do that!\u2019\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Well, that\u2019s what I thought too. I thought it was a good ending; because we come into marriage\/we come into a covenant with our hopes, and expectations, and <em>dreams<\/em>, and our promises. Many times, in our marriage vows, we make promises that we <em>don\u2019t<\/em> keep. To me, this is all about putting Jesus in the front and allowing <em>Him<\/em> to be the One that forgives us and gives us power to take the brunt of our sin.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>So talk about this\u2014you\u2019re that wife. You\u2019ve gone through what Meg went through, and you forgave me and are still forgiving me; how?\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I can only do it when I look in the mirror, honestly. It\u2019s taking the plank out of my eye; because, sometimes, the plank has been really big because, all the time, I think I was noticing yours. The cross makes me realize we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>And yet, as I even think back to those days in our marriage, it was <em>hard<\/em> for you. I mean, as I would come back to you with another struggle, there was <em>anger<\/em>; there was hurt; you felt <em>abandoned<\/em>. Yet, here we sit, decades later; you\u2019ve forgiven me. Was it <em>quick<\/em>?\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>It took a long time. The forgiveness part was there, but the trust part had to be earned back.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>One of the things that Meg goes on to say in this episode of the podcast, she talks about the fact that, for guys who are dealing with pornography, there are support groups.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>That\u2019s good.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>She says for women, who are dealing with control issues or nagging, there\u2019s no support group in the church.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Right; it\u2019s true.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I\u2019d just encourage our listeners to hear the entire conversation that Kim Anthony has with Meg Miller. Again, it\u2019s Episode 1 of Kim\u2019s new podcast, which is called <em>Unfavorable Odds<\/em>. You\u2019ll hear Meg explain why, today, in spite of her husband\u2019s porn use, she says, \u201cWhen I look at him today, he\u2019s perfect.\u201d She\u2019ll explain what she means; again, that\u2019s in Episode 1 of <em>Unfavorable Odds<\/em>. You can hear the episode or subscribe to the podcast when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. The information about Kim\u2019s podcast and the other new podcasts we have available can all be found there.\n\nAgain, go to FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014find out about the FamilyLife podcast network\u2014and if you\u2019re interested in a copy of Meg Miller\u2019s book, <em>Benefit of the Debt: How My Husband\u2019s Porn Problem Saved Our Marriage<\/em>, we have that in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can order it from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order: 1-800-FL-TODAY\u20141-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nYou know, as we reflect on what we\u2019ve heard today, the President of FamilyLife, David Robbins, is here with us. David\u2014a lot to reflect on\/a lot to chew on in what we\u2019ve listened to today.\n\n<strong>David: <\/strong>Yes; indeed. The whole conversation really is amazing. The main thing that strikes me today is that we are each responsible for how we deal with pain and discomfort that we experience. We can\u2019t always control the pain\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, and we certainly can\u2019t control how another person is going to process their side of the story. We can only deal with our own stuff; right?\n\n<strong>David: <\/strong>No doubt. Let\u2019s reflect on two sides of that coin. First, the question we might ask ourselves is: \u201cHow might you be contributing to your spouse or family members\u2019 pain?\u201d Like Meg, you probably aren\u2019t doing it intentionally; but still, consider it and ask them if there\u2019s anything that they have to say.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u201cIs there a log in my eye that I need to look at here?\u201d\n\n<strong>David: <\/strong>Yes; it\u2019s worth asking and offering ourselves up to that conversation.\n\nThe other side is: \u201cHow are <em>you<\/em> dealing with your own pain and stress in life? Are there sinful expressions that we\u2019re simply allowing to exist and allowing to fester?\u201d We <em>long<\/em> to be fully-known and loved, especially by a spouse or family member; but we often hesitate to take the risk to let people in and invite them to speak honestly to us, because there is risk of being hurt. I mean, it\u2019s a legitimate risk.\n\nBut as Tim Keller said, \u201cTo be loved but not known is superficial, to be known and not loved is our greatest fear; but to be known and loved, that transforms us.\u201d Jesus knows us fully and He loves us. Let that free us up to be able to move toward our spouse and members of our family today, even if there\u2019s risk involved.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes; and to be honest with another, we have to be able to trust one another in that environment; but that\u2019s good. Those are good thoughts, David. Thank you.\n\nA quick word of thanks to those of you who made today\u2019s program possible. You know who you are\u2014it\u2019s those of you who help support this ministry, either each month as a Legacy Partner or, from time to time, with an occasional donation to help support this work. Thanks to those of you who are a part of the team.\n\nThose of you who are long-time listeners, can we ask you to join the team? Call today or go online to make a donation. Our website is FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation.\n\nAnd we hope you can join us back, again, tomorrow when we\u2019re going to hear about some remarkable young people, who have decided to invest their time in memorizing Scripture. In fact, you\u2019ll meet a young man tomorrow who has hidden a lot of God\u2019s Word in his heart, and I hope you can tune in for that.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. 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used porn, she used \"helpful\" words; both behaviors contributed to a marriage on the rocks. Meg Miller tells her story to Kim Anthony.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-04-18.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>When Meg Miller\u2019s husband confessed to her that he\u2019d been looking at pornography, he said he had a weight lifted from his shoulders. Meg did not have that same kind of experience.\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>He was so excited to help other guys. He was ready to become the man of God that God had always wanted him to be, and he was so excited to have this behind him. I, on the other hand, was just devastated. I was repulsed; I was disgusted; I was confused. I wanted to let him bring all of his confessions out, but I certainly didn\u2019t want to stick around and be with a guy who was doing this.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, April 18<sup>th<\/sup>. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. Meg Miller says her husband\u2019s involvement with pornography was ultimately what God used to <em>save<\/em> their marriage. We\u2019ll hear her story today. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I have kind of a loaded\u2014this is a hard ball; and I\u2019m going to throw it at\u2014I\u2019m going to throw it at you, Ann, to start this off.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Okay.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Good; throw it at Ann! I don\u2019t want any hard balls. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is a question that I feel like I have to put some disclaimers around this. We would agree that if a husband\u2014this could be a husband or a wife, but we\u2019ll just say a husband\u2014is involved in looking at pornography. We would say the responsibility for that choice is all on him; right?\u2014a hundred percent on him\u2014that he\u2019s doing that.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>He needs to own\u2014that\u2019s all on him.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes; yes.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So the hard ball question is: \u201cCouldn\u2019t his wife have had <em>some<\/em> influence in the fact that he\u2019s over there, looking at porn?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Mmmm\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes! You understand the\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Yes!\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014because we\u2019re in a tricky area. We don\u2019t want to do anything to lessen the full culpability of the man, who is off looking at porn; but when a husband and wife are one, there can be oneness factors that can <em>lead<\/em> either of them into a sinful choice; right?\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>I can\u2019t wait to hear my wife\u2019s answer to that question.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Well, I was going to say\u2014this happened to Dave and I, where he came to me and told me he had an issue, <em>years ago<\/em>, when we were first married. If someone would have said to me, \u201cAnn, you probably have a part in this; and maybe you do,\u201d and \u201cDon\u2019t you have your own sin?\u201d I would have probably slapped you in the face. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>She is <em>not<\/em> kidding. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>But had I been able to think through it a little bit\u2014and go a little deeper and talk to God about it\u2014I would really ponder that, because <em>none<\/em> of us are without sin.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>And yet, you know, I\u2019m the guy she\u2019s talking about that struggled, decades ago. I would tell you it had nothing to do with her\u2014I said that to Ann. I mean, one of the darkest days of my life was when I confessed to Ann my struggle. Of course, <em>immediately<\/em>, she thought it was her fault or, at least, a part of her fault. I really, at that time, felt like: \u201cNo; it has nothing to do with you. This is my struggle.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>But I had my own sin. I had my own things that I struggled with, but I just felt like his were so much worse.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right; well, that\u2019s the subject we\u2019re going to dive into today as we listen to a portion of Episode 1 of a new podcast that FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> has put together. It\u2019s called <em>Unfavorable Odds<\/em> with Kim Anthony. Kim is sharing stories of people, who have faced dark moments and dark days in marriages and in families, and who have found how to overcome those dark moments\/how to get back to victory in those moments.\n\nKim had the opportunity, in Episode 1 of her podcast, to talk to Meg Miller. Meg is the author of a book called <em>Benefit of the Debt<\/em>; and the subtitle is <em>How My Husband\u2019s Porn Problem Saved Our Marriage<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>That\u2019ll get your attention!\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>It [subtitle] said <em>Ruined<\/em>. She cut [line through the word] <em>Ruined<\/em> and wrote <em>Saved<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Wow.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We\u2019ll get a chance to hear, in this excerpt from the podcast, a little of Meg\u2019s story.\n\n[Podcast]\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>I thought it was a good marriage. We were happy-ish\/happy enough, but our definition of happiness might have been off.\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Well, there was something you said in the book\u2014you mentioned how, before you got married, you <em>expected<\/em> there to be problems. Why were you so sure about that?\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>The church has done a good job helping women prepare for differences in marriage: \u201cWe\u2019re not the same,\u201d\u2014you know\u2014\u201cDon\u2019t expect to change your future husband,\u201d\u2014stuff like that. So I knew there would be conflict. I almost even looked forward to it; because I\u2019m creative, and I could <em>figure<\/em> out how to handle it. I thought I was really brilliant.\n\nI can handle little differences; for example, if it\u2019s true that all men\u2014or 95 percent of men\u2014struggle with lust, I almost anticipated how we would handle that: \u201cWe will put some boundaries in place.\u201d I had a plan. [Laughter] Unfortunately, I took it the extra step and considered myself ready and self-sufficient in my own knowledge to handle these things.\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Wow. So, you walked into the marriage confident, <em>in spite<\/em> of your expectation that problems would occur?\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>Yes; I knew problems would occur. I had <em>no<\/em> idea how much it would hurt when problems actually did occur. He <em>wouldn\u2019t<\/em> bend to my brilliance, and he <em>wouldn\u2019t<\/em> take my advice and do things the way I said he should. That frustrated me. In fact, it was hurtful that he wouldn\u2019t do everything my way. [Laughter] So we settled into a little bit of a pattern, where I was frustrated with him often; and he would escape in his own way often.\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>So, take us to the point where you discovered his use of pornography.\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>He almost seemed to want to get caught, almost. He did not cover his trail\u2014he did not clear his browsing history. He almost seemed to be crying out for help. When I found his browsing history, I was crushed. I thought I was ready for this\u2014because it\u2019s so common, and I had heard that it\u2019s so common\u2014that I felt ready and I <em>wasn\u2019t<\/em>. I thought that I would be able to overcome it and not believe the lies that arrive as soon as that browsing history is exposed; for example, \u201cYou\u2019re not good enough,\u201d and \u201cHe\u2019s dirty,\u201d or \u201cHe\u2019s worth less because of this.\u201d Those kinds of lies creep in right away. I thought I was ready for them, because I had heard that it is such a common issue. My heart, as soon as I found it, betrayed that I was not ready for it.\n\nWhen I found evidence of his pornography use, I stopped looking. Now, this is uncommon; because a lot of women want to find out everything and see how bad it is. But I knew that if I did that, it would somehow take the privilege away from <em>him<\/em> of coming forward; because that is an experience he could use to heal. On the other hand, if I confronted him with every single thing that I had found, he would be tempted to hold back the stuff that I did not find, and I <em>knew<\/em> there would be something that I did not find.\n\nNo one was counseling me on this; I just felt a still, small voice that said: \u201cHang on. Don\u2019t go crazy. Let\u2019s give him the benefit of confessing.\u201d So I don\u2019t have to accuse him of everything.\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>What did that do to you, as a wife, to discover that your husband has been using pornography? What did that do to your emotions, your feelings about yourself, your feelings about him?\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>It is terrible; it is terrible. It\u2019s one of the <em>worst<\/em> feelings in the world. I would rather have a physical illness or something\u2014a tragedy from the a tree falling on the dog or something\u2014I\u2019d rather have some kind of unexplainable thing that does not pit us against one another, something that we could bind together and face together. This does the opposite\u2014pornography does the opposite\u2014and puts us on opposite sides of the problem, where he seems weak now; and he seems like an escapist.\n\nIt\u2019s confusing to me, first of all, because we had always been very open with each other; so suddenly, there are these secrets. It\u2019s also confusing to me because: \u201cWhy isn\u2019t our life good enough? Why do you need something else to get by?\u201d It\u2019s also confusing to me because: \u201cWhy <em>that<\/em>? Why would <em>that<\/em> comfort a guy?\u201d That\u2019s just a difference between many men and women. To me, other things comfort me; and if I need to escape, that\u2019s not where I\u2019m going.\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>So what did you <em>do<\/em>\u2014you and your husband do to seek help? How did you <em>strategize<\/em> towards healing?\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>He was repentant immediately. He was thankful that it was out in the light. He was probably healthier than I was, at that point; because: \u201cYay! Healing is on the way!\u201d He\u2019s optimistic\/encouraged; he felt connected. Secrets are out, so he felt relief. And he\u2019s a Christian, so he also felt forgiveness from the Lord. He and the Lord were tighter, now, than ever before. He was so excited to help other guys. He was ready to become the man of God that God had <em>always<\/em> wanted him to be, and he was so excited to have this behind him. I, on the other hand, was just devastated. I was repulsed; I was disgusted; I was confused. I wanted to let him bring all of his confessions out, but I certainly didn\u2019t want to stick around and be with a guy who was doing this.\n\nYou asked about the treatment that we <em>sought<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>We did go to couples\u2019 counseling. The couples\u2019 counselor told us: \u201cYou, Mr., you need to go to his group,\u201d and \u201cYou, Mrs., you should go to her group.\u201d It really struck me\u2014the difference\u2014when we came out of our groups: how sad I was after my group and how excited he was after his group. It was like we were going further and further away from each other in our own respective cocoons.\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Was your husband sensitive to how you were feeling, even though he was in this place that was much better than before?\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>He was sensitive. He would always ask me what I <em>need<\/em> to heal, and I didn\u2019t know. He would try, and I didn\u2019t know what I needed. I\u2019m so hurt; it\u2019s just so\u2014it\u2019s <em>not<\/em> getting better. I <em>felt<\/em> that hurt turning into resentment; and when that began, I started feeling <em>permanently<\/em> repulsed by him instead of just <em>temporarily<\/em> repulsed.\n\nI knew\u2014I got desperate\u2014I <em>knew<\/em> I had to find healing or we would be done, not because of his problem, but because of my unforgiveness. I couldn\u2019t figure it out.\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Wow.\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>And I knew forgiveness was a command, so I tried. I tried, tried, tried, tried. I said it over and over: \u201cI forgive you,\u201d \u201cI forgive you\u201d; but that hurt remained. The hurt was evidence of unforgiveness.\n\nWhen I begged God for answers\u2014and I did <em>not<\/em> let Him leave me alone until He did give me answers\u2014what He gave me was almost, at the time, felt like a change of subject. He showed me my husband\u2019s heart next to mine, and it was just as damaged. I wondered: \u201cWhere did all that damage come from? He couldn\u2019t be as damaged as me; that has to be hypothetical.\u201d The Holy Spirit was kind enough to say: \u201cSure. Go ahead; just explore it. Just consider it. What <em>if<\/em>\u2014what <em>if <\/em>your husband was as hurt as <em>you<\/em> are?\u201d\n\nI thought: \u201cWell, okay; I\u2019ll go with You there. I\u2019ll consider that.\u201d But what would be the source of that hurt? Where would he have gotten so hurt from? I was confused again. Very gently\u2014oh, so gently\u2014I ruled out one factor in his life after another, until the factor of my own presence in his life came into view. I was like, \u201cOkay; I\u2019ll examine myself as the source of Joe\u2019s hurt.\u201d <em>Everything<\/em> came into clear focus at that moment: \u201cIf I am responsible for his broken heart, then it would explain all the confusion\u2014all the confusion that I had had would be cleared up.\u201d\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Tell me how you went from God showing you that his heart is just as broken as yours to actually taking on the responsibility\u2014and please correct me if I\u2019m wrong; you can clarify for me\u2014but you said that you found that you were the <em>source<\/em> of his pain. Are you saying that you were the source of the pain that <em>led<\/em> him to using pornography?\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>No; I can say that I\u2019m the source of the pain that I saw in this insight\/in this revelation. I\u2019m the source of his hurt. What he does with that hurt is up to him, but I am\u00a0 not responsible for his actions. I am responsible for: \u201cWhat is the condition of his heart?\u201d\n\nWhen I realized I\u2019m responsible for the condition of his heart, that hurt that I was feeling, as the result of his pornography habit, instantly dissipated and was replaced with concern and regret\u2014not guilt and shame\u2014but regret: \u201cWhat can I do to make this right?!\u201d I was consumed with excitement and desire to make it right and to help him heal, because I knew what it felt like to be damaged.\n\nI didn\u2019t realize I was criticizing my husband as much as I was. For example, in the home, when I tell him how to do things, a little wound appears in his heart. \u201cI did not mean to hurt you, but when I tell you how to do everything, that starts to look like a lot of pain.\u201d Now, I\u2019m not saying that that pain causes him to sin, but I am saying that that pain is an issue. I\u2019m involved in that, and I can move toward that. That\u2019s something I can do\u2014in all the helplessness, I can move toward his pain and say, \u201cI did <em>not<\/em> know what I was doing,\u201d and that was <em>very<\/em> healing for both of us.\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Tell me how that critical spirit played out in your marriage. What did it look like?\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>Every day, there are <em>many<\/em> things that a couple has to talk about to run the household\u2014I call it household administration. A lot of the things are lessons learned; for example: \u201cWhen we get a little flock of backyard chickens, we should probably make sure they don\u2019t jump the fence and bother the neighbors,\u201d \u201cWe should also drop off the car to get the brakes fixed,\u201d \u201cDid you feed the dog?\u201d All these things\u2014they don\u2019t sound like criticism; do they?\n\nBut when you pile them on top\u2014one on top of another\u2014and you start saying, \u201cHey, you should have gotten the car in a little earlier\u201d; if you start criticizing your life in general, a husband often takes that as a direct assault on his character. Often, women\u2014we just think we\u2019re collaborating to run the house; but a man, after a full days\u2019 worth of collaborating, that can sound a lot like a drip on his performance.\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Is it possible that, in the marriage, he felt like you were controlling him; and his acting out through the use of pornography was possibly one of the only places he found that he had control over?\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>Yes; and it was a source of comfort for him, where I should have been the comfort, instead of his control. If I only have a certain number of words allotted to me every day, and I use most of them for household administration and control, then I haven\u2019t used them to comfort. I should be comforting my husband more than controlling him. Again, it doesn\u2019t sound like control, at the moment: \u201cI just have to get this stuff done.\u201d\n\n<strong>Kim: <\/strong>So, tell me what the Lord has done in <em>your<\/em> life in the area of having a critical spirit.\n\n<strong>Meg: <\/strong>Having a critical spirit is <em>not<\/em> a habit that I need to work on; it\u2019s a big debt I have incurred. What I mean by that is\u2014when I hurt someone, someone has to pay for that. Either my husband\u2019s going to <em>live<\/em> with that hurt every day\u2014like I was living with the hurt of his pornography use; I was paying his debt, one little bit at a time; and I would <em>never<\/em> have been able to pay it off by myself.\n\nIn the same way, when I criticize him, a debt is incurred; and I <em>cannot<\/em> make it right. I need a third party\u2014I need someone to pay that debt for me. I don\u2019t mean debt cancellation\u2014that\u2019s just changing the numbers\u2014I mean, someone has to go <em>pay<\/em>. Someone has to hurt on our behalf so that we don\u2019t have to.\n\nThankfully, Someone already has gone through all that on our behalf. The Lord Jesus died for me so that I don\u2019t have to go through this. He was beaten and betrayed\u2014that\u2019s how I felt\u2014I was beaten and betrayed by my husband\u2019s porn use. I do <em>not<\/em> have to go through that anymore\u2014not because I have done nothing wrong, which is the lie that I was believing before: \u201cI am better than this. I have done <em>nothing<\/em> wrong. My husband owes me fidelity,\u201d\u2014those are not the <em>entire<\/em> truth.\n\nThe entire truth is that Somebody has gone through this betrayal and abuse on my behalf so that, now, I can stand and say, \u201cI don\u2019t have to put up with that behavior anymore,\u201d\u2014not because I\u2019ve earned better\u2014but because Somebody\u2019s already gone through the trouble\/that difficulty, and the abuse, and betrayal on my behalf.\n\n[Studio]\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, we\u2019ve been listening to Meg Miller in an excerpt from Episode 1 of Kim Anthony\u2019s new podcast, which is called <em>Unfavorable Odds<\/em>. To hear her say, \u201cI\u2019m not owed fidelity,\u201d I\u2019m thinking, \u201cWell, sure you are!\u201d I mean, he promised fidelity when they stood at the altar and said, \u201cI do.\u201d This is kind of a tricky minefield to wind up in; but I think the heart of what Meg is trying to say here is: \u201cWe both have to acknowledge\u2014we come into marriage with our own stuff and our own junk. If you\u2019re the person, who\u2019s sitting with the log in your eye and looking at the speck in your spouse\u2019s eye, that\u2019s where the problem is\u201d; right?\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>Yes; I\u2019m listening to the end of that and thinking, \u201cThe depth\/the maturity to be able to <em>not<\/em> demand fidelity\u2014I mean, she is\u2014but to be able to take her eyes off her husband and put them on the cross\u2014honestly, I\u2019m like, \u2018I can\u2019t do that!\u2019\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Well, that\u2019s what I thought too. I thought it was a good ending; because we come into marriage\/we come into a covenant with our hopes, and expectations, and <em>dreams<\/em>, and our promises. Many times, in our marriage vows, we make promises that we <em>don\u2019t<\/em> keep. To me, this is all about putting Jesus in the front and allowing <em>Him<\/em> to be the One that forgives us and gives us power to take the brunt of our sin.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>So talk about this\u2014you\u2019re that wife. You\u2019ve gone through what Meg went through, and you forgave me and are still forgiving me; how?\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>I can only do it when I look in the mirror, honestly. It\u2019s taking the plank out of my eye; because, sometimes, the plank has been really big because, all the time, I think I was noticing yours. The cross makes me realize we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.\n\n<strong>Dave: <\/strong>And yet, as I even think back to those days in our marriage, it was <em>hard<\/em> for you. I mean, as I would come back to you with another struggle, there was <em>anger<\/em>; there was hurt; you felt <em>abandoned<\/em>. Yet, here we sit, decades later; you\u2019ve forgiven me. Was it <em>quick<\/em>?\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>It took a long time. The forgiveness part was there, but the trust part had to be earned back.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>One of the things that Meg goes on to say in this episode of the podcast, she talks about the fact that, for guys who are dealing with pornography, there are support groups.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>That\u2019s good.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>She says for women, who are dealing with control issues or nagging, there\u2019s no support group in the church.\n\n<strong>Ann: <\/strong>Right; it\u2019s true.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I\u2019d just encourage our listeners to hear the entire conversation that Kim Anthony has with Meg Miller. Again, it\u2019s Episode 1 of Kim\u2019s new podcast, which is called <em>Unfavorable Odds<\/em>. You\u2019ll hear Meg explain why, today, in spite of her husband\u2019s porn use, she says, \u201cWhen I look at him today, he\u2019s perfect.\u201d She\u2019ll explain what she means; again, that\u2019s in Episode 1 of <em>Unfavorable Odds<\/em>. You can hear the episode or subscribe to the podcast when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. The information about Kim\u2019s podcast and the other new podcasts we have available can all be found there.\n\nAgain, go to FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014find out about the FamilyLife podcast network\u2014and if you\u2019re interested in a copy of Meg Miller\u2019s book, <em>Benefit of the Debt: How My Husband\u2019s Porn Problem Saved Our Marriage<\/em>, we have that in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can order it from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order: 1-800-FL-TODAY\u20141-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nYou know, as we reflect on what we\u2019ve heard today, the President of FamilyLife, David Robbins, is here with us. David\u2014a lot to reflect on\/a lot to chew on in what we\u2019ve listened to today.\n\n<strong>David: <\/strong>Yes; indeed. The whole conversation really is amazing. The main thing that strikes me today is that we are each responsible for how we deal with pain and discomfort that we experience. We can\u2019t always control the pain\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, and we certainly can\u2019t control how another person is going to process their side of the story. We can only deal with our own stuff; right?\n\n<strong>David: <\/strong>No doubt. Let\u2019s reflect on two sides of that coin. First, the question we might ask ourselves is: \u201cHow might you be contributing to your spouse or family members\u2019 pain?\u201d Like Meg, you probably aren\u2019t doing it intentionally; but still, consider it and ask them if there\u2019s anything that they have to say.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u201cIs there a log in my eye that I need to look at here?\u201d\n\n<strong>David: <\/strong>Yes; it\u2019s worth asking and offering ourselves up to that conversation.\n\nThe other side is: \u201cHow are <em>you<\/em> dealing with your own pain and stress in life? Are there sinful expressions that we\u2019re simply allowing to exist and allowing to fester?\u201d We <em>long<\/em> to be fully-known and loved, especially by a spouse or family member; but we often hesitate to take the risk to let people in and invite them to speak honestly to us, because there is risk of being hurt. I mean, it\u2019s a legitimate risk.\n\nBut as Tim Keller said, \u201cTo be loved but not known is superficial, to be known and not loved is our greatest fear; but to be known and loved, that transforms us.\u201d Jesus knows us fully and He loves us. Let that free us up to be able to move toward our spouse and members of our family today, even if there\u2019s risk involved.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes; and to be honest with another, we have to be able to trust one another in that environment; but that\u2019s good. Those are good thoughts, David. Thank you.\n\nA quick word of thanks to those of you who made today\u2019s program possible. You know who you are\u2014it\u2019s those of you who help support this ministry, either each month as a Legacy Partner or, from time to time, with an occasional donation to help support this work. Thanks to those of you who are a part of the team.\n\nThose of you who are long-time listeners, can we ask you to join the team? Call today or go online to make a donation. Our website is FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation.\n\nAnd we hope you can join us back, again, tomorrow when we\u2019re going to hear about some remarkable young people, who have decided to invest their time in memorizing Scripture. In fact, you\u2019ll meet a young man tomorrow who has hidden a lot of God\u2019s Word in his heart, and I hope you can tune in for that.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. 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