{"id":304516,"date":"2017-05-23T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2017-05-23T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/the-why-of-depression\/"},"modified":"2017-05-23T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2017-05-23T15:00:00","slug":"the-why-of-depression","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-why-of-depression\/","title":{"rendered":"The Why of Depression"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>guest: Charles Hodges | Series: Good Mood, Bad Mood | Depression is affecting an increasing number of families. Christian counselor and practicing physician Dr. Charles Hodges explains the difference between depression and normal sadness, and helps us look at emotional pain through a biblical grid.Show Notes &#038; ResourcesJerry Sittser talks with Dennis and Barbara Rainey about the tragic car accident that turned his life upside down.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Dr. Charles Hodges explains the difference between depression and normal sadness, and helps us look at emotional pain through a biblical grid.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2017-05-23.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:33","filesize":"25.22M","filesize_raw":"26448443","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2846,2873],"tags":[4009,4434],"podcast_series":[8014],"cwp_profile":[9339],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-304516","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-depression","category-mental-and-emotional-issues","tag-depression","tag-mental-illness","podcast_series-good-mood-bad-mood","cwp_profile-charles-hodges","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/304516\/the-why-of-depression","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/304516\/the-why-of-depression","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"m1rxzLFXNu\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-why-of-depression\/\">The Why of Depression<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-why-of-depression\/embed\/#?secret=m1rxzLFXNu\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;The Why of Depression&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"m1rxzLFXNu\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2017-05-23.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2017-05-23.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Dr. Charles Hodges is a physician who treats people who are clinically depressed. He says, \u201cIf you can identify the source of your sadness\u2014the reason why you\u2019re sad\u2014chances are you\u2019re not experiencing clinical depression.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>I remember, not long back, having a young lady come bouncing into the office to tell me that she believed she was depressed and that she thought she needed medication. I asked her when it started and what had happened. She said that, a couple weeks ago, she dumped her boyfriend. And you know, I kind of looked at her and smiled a little bit\u2014thought maybe she needed a new haircut and a nice dress. But I didn\u2019t think she actually needed an antidepressant. There was a <em>reason<\/em> why she was sad. She was sad because she had sustained a loss. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, May 23<sup>rd<\/sup>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOur host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. Does God sometimes have a purpose in taking us into a valley where we will experience profound sadness or grieving?\u00a0 We\u2019re going to spend some time talking about that today. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition. You know, the subject we are talking about this week\u2014about bipolar disorder, mood disorder, and depression\u2014this is an issue in increasing numbers of families. Dennis\u2014as we\u2019ve said, it\u2019s a disruptive issue for families\u2014it threatens marriages \/ it breaks up families. When it\u2019s diagnosed with a teenager, parents are really unsure and troubled about what to do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And in all of the cases that you mention, Bob, there is all this conflicting data, and voices, and opinion. You really wonder: \u201cWho do you listen to?\u2014\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cis it the medical community?\u2014the vitamin community that has all kinds of solutions for things?\u2014 all kinds of therapies that are being recommended for mood disorders?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, we\u2019re going to take our own shot at it here today. Dr. Charlie Hodges joins us again on the broadcast. Charlie, welcome back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>It\u2019s good to be here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Charlie is, as I mentioned earlier, a family physician. He is a licensed marital and family therapist. He and his wife Helen have been married since 1971\u2014have four children. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe has been studying issues like depression and bipolar disorder for a number of years and has written a book called <em>Good Mood, Bad Mood<\/em>. What causes these mood disorders like depression \/ like bipolar disorder?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>Nobody really knows. That is at the bottom of the problem. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere was a good blog that was written about the fact that several of the drug manufacturers \/ pharmaceutical companies are shuttering their psychiatric medication research units. The reason why is because there is no novel medication coming down the road, at this point. The reason why there are no new drugs coming down the pipeline is because <em>we don\u2019t know<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf we understood the pathology that was behind depression \/ if we understood the pathology that was behind bipolar disorder, and we could define it at cell level, then, we would be able to design new medication that would be helpful and beneficial. So, the truth of the matter is\u2014at this point in time, we do <em>not<\/em> <em>know<\/em> what the underlying cause for depression is \/ we <em>don\u2019t<\/em> <em>know<\/em> what the underlying cause of bipolar disorder is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>If somebody comes to your office and says, \u201cI think I may have strep throat,\u201d you can do a culture. You can determine whether the bacteria or the disease is present in them. If somebody comes and says, \u201cI think I\u2019m depressed,\u201d there is no swab \/ there is no blood test\u2014there is nothing that you can do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAll you can do is hear them list their symptoms and conclude, based on their symptoms, whether that\u2019s legitimate depression or not. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>And if the physician or the provider involved is doing their job, they\u2019ll match those symptoms up against the criteria that is in the DSM. Unfortunately, that doesn\u2019t happen very much. So, it\u2019s all subjective. There\u2019s almost <em>no <\/em>objective aspect to it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, you\u2019re a family physician. If I came to you\u2014you\u2019re my family doctor\u2014and I said: \u201cCharlie, here is what is going on. I sleep 16 hours a day. I have no motivation to get up. I entertain suicidal thoughts. I\u2019m just lifeless. I just\u2014I don\u2019t want to live anymore.\u201d\u00a0 Doesn\u2019t that sound like depression?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: \u201c<\/strong>Are you eating or not eating?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: \u201c<\/strong>I don\u2019t have any appetite.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: \u201c<\/strong>Are you still playing golf, or have you lost interest in that?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: \u201c<\/strong>No; I don\u2019t want to play golf. I don\u2019t even want to go out of the house.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>At that point, as long as it\u2019s more than two weeks, you\u2019ve met the criteria that would be necessary for you to have a diagnosis. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, I\u2019d be asking the question, \u201cWhat happened when this started?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You say I meet the criteria. A lot of doctors, at that point, will go: \u201cThat sounds like depression. Here is your prescription.\u201d\u00a0 But you say, \u201cThey ought to go a step farther.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>Yes\u2014going back into the history and find out whether or not this is an issue with regard to normal sadness versus disordered sadness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere is a very good book by Jerome Wakefield and Allan Horwitz\u2014the title of it is <em>The Loss of Sadness<\/em>, and the subtitle is <em>How Psychiatry Turned Normal Sadness into Depressive Disorder<\/em>. What those two write about, for a good long time, is the fact that, in our society, we no longer talk about being sad. As one writer said, \u201cPeople no longer say, \u2018I\u2019m sad.\u2019\u00a0 They say, \u2018I\u2019m\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014\u201c\u2019depressed.\u2019\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>Yes; that\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>And the reason why they do that is because we\u2019ve been <em>taught<\/em> to do that since the 19\u2014late 1980s\u2014with the advent of medication that could be used to treat. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, when I\u2019m talking to someone who is depressed, what I want to know from them is: \u201cWhat\u2019s happened?\u00a0 When did this start?\u00a0 What happened when it started?\u201d I can remember, not long back, having a young lady come bouncing into the office to tell me that she believed she was depressed and that she thought she needed medication. I asked her when it started and what had happened. She said that, a couple weeks ago, she\u2019d dumped her boyfriend. And you know, I kind of looked at her and smiled a little bit\u2014and thought maybe she needed a new haircut and a nice dress\u2014but I didn\u2019t think she actually needed an antidepressant. There was a <em>reason<\/em> why she was sad. She was sad because she had sustained a loss. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou could say the same thing about men who lose jobs. When they lose their job, their mood will decline. Their mood will worsen, depending on how long the situation is; and then\u2014when I\u2019m teaching this, I always look out across the class and say: \u201cWhen does the young lady get better?\u201d and \u201cWhen does the guy get better?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd they know the young lady gets better when she finds a new boyfriend; right?\u00a0 Then, the guy gets better when he gets his job back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You\u2019re both a physician\u2014family physician\u2014and a licensed counselor. I want you to take off your physician hat for a moment, put your counselor hat on, and help us look at <em>loss<\/em> through a biblical grid. What do you think God was up to when He allowed loss to come into our lives?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>Well, I would say, like C.S. Lewis said: \u201cPain is God\u2019s megaphone.\u201d If He wants to get our attention, He allows something to come into our life that is most disagreeable. I believe that, actually, sorrow is a created part of our being\u2014I believe that God put it there. It\u2019s there on purpose, and it\u2019s there\u2014meant to drive us to Him\u2014lots of good examples in the Bible. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI like Hannah because Hannah spoke to my heart; right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA couple of years ago, I had something really, really ugly happen in my life. I always smile and say: \u201cI\u2019m not going to give you the details. I won\u2019t bore you with them, but I can tell you that it was a <em>major loss<\/em>.\u201d\u00a0 And I\u2014<em>for<\/em> <em>days<\/em>, the only way I would get along was I knew I had to get up and get out of bed; I knew I needed to keep breathing, and I knew I had to keep running. If I quit doing those two things, I was lost. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd shortly after that, I had to go on a vacation. It\u2019s one of those kinds of deals where\u2014you planned the vacation, you bought the airline tickets, your cousins in Southern California are expecting you to be there\u2014and you wouldn\u2019t have gone for any <em>reason<\/em>, under the circumstances; but I had to go. So, I went off to Southern California. The first Sunday I\u2019m there, I\u2019m in church with my cousins. The pastor, Stan Van Den Berg, is preaching on Hannah. And there were two things that I wrote on the edge of my bulletin\u2014and that are in my book. One of them is that God never lets anything come into our lives without purpose and without reason. Then, the other is that Hannah\u2019s name means \u201cgrace\u201d\u2014that\u2019s what it means in Hebrew.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHannah\u2019s name means\u201d grace.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd of course, she had no children. Her rival had ten children; but you know the truth of the matter of that story is\u2014is that the story isn\u2019t about infertility. The story is really about how God chose to change Hannah. That was what the story was about. The story is how God is going to change Hannah by grace. And the passage in Samuel says that God had closed her womb. I mean, she wasn\u2019t infertile by accident\u2014she was infertile on <em>purpose<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd what you <em>see<\/em>, as you read through the text, is that God uses this to change her from the woman who said, \u201cGive me children or I\u2019ll die,\u201d to the woman who, on that given day, can take Samuel, and give him back to God, and leave him\u2014leave him in the temple, and walk off, and leave him. She went from being a woman who couldn\u2019t live without children to a woman who no longer worshipped having children. That\u2019s what the story is about. And I listened to that\u2014<em>that<\/em> gave me strength. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHannah is a great example of someone who had sustained serious loss and who\u2014if she were alive today, what would happen to her?\u00a0 She would be diagnosed with what?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014with depression. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>Certainly, with depression. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>And certainly, would be treated and would be worse for the wear. It probably wouldn\u2019t make any difference. The reason why it wouldn\u2019t make any difference is because you can\u2019t treat sadness with a drug that\u2019s meant to treat a disease; you know?\u00a0 When you say that depression is a disease, then, the medicines that are meant to treat a disease really don\u2019t work in dealing with human sadness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I know some parents who had a teenage daughter\u2014that they felt like was depressed and was dealing with real depression. They took her to a counselor, and the counselor put her on Prozac<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. The child said to the parents, \u201cYou can\u2019t give me a pill that will make me happy.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>No. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And the interesting thing about that is she was <em>right<\/em>. The parents found that out through the experience of that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI sometimes kind of pinch myself that I get the privilege of talking with men, like you, who\u2019ve made a lifetime study out of certain things and that I get the privilege of gleaning wisdom. One man we had the privilege, a number of years ago, to interview really introduced the theme of loss to me on a whole new level. It was Dr. Jerry Sittser. Bob knows the story\u2014he wrote a book called <em>A Grace Disguised<\/em>\u2014interesting, it goes back to Hannah\u2014<em>A Grace Disguised<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSince that time and, really, since that conversation with Jerry Sittser and how he dealt with loss, I\u2019ve viewed what God\u2019s up to a little differently in my life because I think life is one long process of having mountaintop experiences; but along the way, you\u2019re going to have losses. How you deal with the losses, biblically, can determine your hope, how you live, your perspective, the peace about which you live life, and whether you do become profoundly sad and withdraw from other people and end up not being used by God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>I think the best chapter in the New Testament to help people who have an identifiable loss\u2014people who are struggling\u2014is John, Chapter 11. It just speaks <em>volumes<\/em> to the individual who has sustained loss about what God is up to in their lives. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is the account of the death of Lazarus and Jesus coming and raising him to life again; right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>Oh, yes. From the outset, we know that Jesus knows what is going on. He knows <em>entirely<\/em> what is happening. He sits down and <em>waits<\/em> until Lazarus has died. So, I think that\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So, He waits until he is <em>stinking<\/em>. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>Yes\u2014in the grave for four days. And from that, we also then know he had a <em>plan<\/em>\u2014none of this is happening by accident. Then, you see the tender interaction between Jesus and Martha: \u201cWhere were You when I needed you?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cIf You had been here, my brother would not have died.\u201d\u00a0 Then, her request\u2014you know, \u201cI know whatever You ask God for,\u201d at this point, \u201cHe\u2019ll do for You.\u201d\u00a0 Then, He says plainly, \u201cYour brother will rise again.\u201d\u00a0 And she\u2014poof\u2014she dismisses it \/ it goes right by. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd then, we see the same interaction with Mary and, then, the weeping. Then, we see Jesus <em>weep<\/em>, which is strange when you think about it because, in minutes, Jesus is going to raise Lazarus from the dead. This is already done\u2014it\u2019s going to happen\u2014and He weeps, anyway, which means that He cares. We know that Jesus <em>knows<\/em> all about it. We know that He has a plan for it and that He <em>cares<\/em> about it. And then, when Jesus had wept enough, He acted. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI say, \u201cYou know, if you really want to help people who have lost something, that\u2019s the pattern.\u201d\u00a0 You have to be willing to know something about their problem. You have to have a <em>plan<\/em> in process for how you\u2019re going to help them. You really do have to care about them; and then, it requires action. So, I always take people, who are struggling with big losses\u2014I take them to John, Chapter 11\u2014not on the day. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI always say that the lady who just lost her husband\u2014she needs something out of Psalm 46 in place\u2014but, usually, by the time they get to me, they\u2019ve struggled with this for a while. This is going on weeks, months, maybe even years. At that point, they are looking for the exit. So, I take them first to John, Chapter 11. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You know, it\u2019s interesting to me\u2014and this is kind of a new \u201caha\u201d for me\u2014but you look at the hymn book of Israel\u2014and you look at how much anguish, and despair, and depression, and discouragement, and sadness there is. You see every word there is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Then, God says: \u201cNow, sing that back to me as a congregation. I want to hear you singing this about your despair.\u201d\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You\u2019re talking about the Psalms. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I\u2019m talking about the Psalms. I\u2019m talking about God delighting in His children singing: \u201cOh, Lord, how long will You forget me?\u00a0 How long will You withhold Your favor from me?\u201d\u00a0 You would think God would say: \u201cEnough of your nagging!\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cSing Psalm 100\u201d\u2014you know\u2014\u201cbecause that\u2019s a good one\u201d; but here\u2019s God saying: \u201cNo; I want your mountaintops and your valleys lived out in My presence. I want you to bring them to Me\u2014together, there\u2019ll be a sanctification that will happen here\u201d; right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>He\u2019s saying: \u201cI want you to bring them to Me. In the end, embrace <em>Me<\/em> in the midst of suffering\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cthese losses.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right. So, my question for you is\u2014the patient who comes and says: \u201cI feel like, in this tremendous loss I\u2019ve just experienced\u2014I know why I\u2019m sad; but I\u2019m sad to a point where I\u2019m in despair, where I don\u2019t want to function. I just think it would be good if I went on antidepressants for a little period until I got passed it.\u201d\u00a0 What would your counsel back to that person be?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>I had a patient come through, a while back. I sat down and listened to the story that he told. He had some really bad things going on in his life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey would be enough to cause a normal person to be struggling with sadness. I told him: \u201cWell, from what you\u2019ve told me, I <em>know<\/em> that your situation is going to change. Given time, this will moderate. We have two options here. I can send you to talk to someone.\u201d If they say they want to go talk to somebody, then, I have the opportunity to send them to somebody who can do pastoral counseling \/ biblical counseling, or send them to the psychiatrist, or whomever they want to go to. But I can send them to talk to somebody\u2014which, according to the research that we\u2019re doing right now, it works just as well as the medication. That\u2019s the current research for 90 percent of the people who get labeled \u201cdepressed\u201d\u2014just going and talking to somebody works just as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cOr I can give you the medicine. But I tell you this: \u2018The medicine that you will take will change your personality.\u2019\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u201cWhile I\u2019m on it or for good?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>\u201cJust while you\u2019re on it.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u201cOkay.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>\u201cAnd you really need to think about whether you want that part of you changed.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe individual took the medicine and came back later and said: \u201cYou know, I thought about what you said a lot. I decided I didn\u2019t want to do that.\u201d\u00a0 So, I would not refuse a person\u2019s request for an antidepressant who wanted it, as a physician; but I really do try to offer them what I <em>know<\/em>, from the current research, works better. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Would there be\u2014with the one or two percent who fit the <em>old<\/em> definition of depression\u2014they don\u2019t have a cause for it \/ they don\u2019t know why\u2014they are just chronically clinically depressed. Is there medicine that will help them or will talking it through with somebody help them?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>I\u2019d say both. The medicines that we have seem to work for the people who are the very seriously depressed. That means that, if you look at the difference between the placebo group and the treated group, it separates enough to be what we call clinically significant\u2014you know, there is enough difference in the treated group versus the untreated group so that we could say, \u201cWe think this probably works.\u201d\u00a0 So, yes; there is some benefit. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut certainly, going and talking to someone is <em>always <\/em>going to be of benefit. I always smile and say that\u2019s where I think biblical counseling has the greatest hope to offer people, because we have <em>real<\/em> hope to offer. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I had a friend who was in a marriage, where his wife was\u2014I don\u2019t know how else to describe it\u2014it just seemed like depression took her out of the game \/ it took her out of life; and she couldn\u2019t function. You\u2019re not saying, in those situations, that that\u2019s not a real disease or a real illness, or are you saying that?\u00a0 Do you believe depression is a \u201cdisease\u201d or illness?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>For the 10 percent\u2014the people who cannot tell me why it is they are sad\u2014then, the question is: \u201cWhat is going on in their life, medically?\u201d\u00a0 And the answer to that question is that: \u201cWe don\u2019t exactly know.\u201d\u00a0 So, I have to say, \u201cI don\u2019t know.\u201d\u00a0 That doesn\u2019t mean I don\u2019t think it\u2019s a disease. It just means I can\u2019t give you an absolute answer about that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI would tell you that I think the best part of what\u2019s going on, now, in medicine is\u2014like at the National Institute of Mental Health, Thomas Insel\u2014he is a psychiatrist, who <em>runs<\/em> the National Institute of Mental Health\u2014he said that, concerning depression\u2014that we have never been able to demonstrate a chemical imbalance that\u2019s associated with depression. It\u2019s not an exact quote, but that\u2019s pretty much what he said. He indicated, in that interview, that, actually, the National Institute of Mental Health was turning their interest towards cognitive behavioral therapy\u2014<em>talking<\/em> to people about their problems\u2014because they believed that there is a lot more ground being made doing <em>that<\/em> than investing more money in research for medication. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I would say: \u201cYes, I believe that there is something wrong with someone who tells me that they\u2019re sad and they meet the criteria for depression. I don\u2019t exactly know what it is.\u201d\u00a0 I\u2019m not saying it\u2019s not a disease\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And you\u2019re certainly not saying that it\u2019s not real. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>No; absolutely\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Obviously, there are people who can\u2019t get out of bed\u2014who lose their zest for living. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>And I think the most important thing is for a person like that, first and foremost, is to make sure that they don\u2019t have some other underlying medical problem that is causing what\u2019s going on; because there are a number of medical ailments which do affect people\u2019s moods. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, I want to talk about that a little bit later. I want to make two book recommendations to our listeners. First of all, the Bible\u2014get in the Book. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That\u2019s a good one\u2014\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014I\u2019ve read that! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Get in the Book. Read the Psalms, which have these emotions and these moods expressed. Get to know the God of the Bible\u2014that, ultimately, is the message of today\u2019s broadcast. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, secondly, I think Dr. Hodges\u2019 book here, <em>Good Mood, Bad Mood<\/em>, will make for some very healthy reading\u2014especially for people who may have a teenager who is struggling with some of these disorders, or they\u2019re in a marriage, or they\u2019ve got a brother \/ a sister \/ or perhaps a parent\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014it will give perspective and <em>help<\/em> where you need it. And that\u2019s why we\u2019ve been talking about this today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, and of course, we have copies of Dr. Hodges\u2019 book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. We\u2019d encourage listeners to order a copy from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com. Or call to order at 1-800-FL-TODAY. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, we want to stress what we\u2019ve already said this week; and that is, a part of the protocol\u2014if you are experiencing sadness or depression that seems to be overwhelming\u2014is to talk to a doctor. Sit down with a medical professional\u2014get a work-up done. See if there is something that may be going on, biologically, that would be affecting you. But I think reading a copy of Dr. Hodges\u2019 book will provide you with some real clarity and some help here. In fact, the subtitle of the book is <em>Help and Hope for Depression and Bipolar Disorder<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong><br><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, you can order a copy of the book from us at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order at 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe reason we explore subjects like this, and have conversations like this, is because we understand that there are so many factors that can lead to either harmony or disharmony in a family\u2014so many factors that can cause us to either pull together and rally together, as a family, or can push us apart \/ push us into isolation. Our goal, here, at FamilyLife is to help every home become a godly home. We\u2019re grateful for those of you who support this ministry and support that mission through your financial gifts. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, during the month of May, we\u2019ve been asking listeners to consider making a one-time gift that would help toward a goal we\u2019ve set. We\u2019re trying to raise $1.1 million during the month of May. We\u2019ve already heard from a number of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners, who have said, \u201cWe want to help you reach that goal.\u201d The purpose is to have funds available during the summer to continue working on a number of projects that are underway. The summer months are when we often see a decline in funding. We\u2019re hoping, by establishing this fund, we will be able to continue moving forward over the next several months on a variety of projects designed to help strengthen your marriage and your family.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, \u201cThanks,\u201d to those of you who have already given. If you\u2019re a regular listener and you\u2019ve not yet made a one-time donation in support of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, it\u2019s easy to do. Whatever amount you can afford, go to FamilyLifeToday.com and donate online; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr you can mail your donation to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR;\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tand our zip code is 72223. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we want to talk about Bipolar Disorder I\u2014what happens when there are severe mood swings going on in somebody\u2019s life? Dr. Charles Hodges will be back with us tomorrow for that. I hope you can be here as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We hope to see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> ministry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:27:33"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["25.22M"],"filesize_raw":["26448443"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-304516.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-304516.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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Charles Hodges explains the difference between depression and normal sadness, and helps us look at emotional pain through a biblical grid.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2017-05-23.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Dr. Charles Hodges is a physician who treats people who are clinically depressed. He says, \u201cIf you can identify the source of your sadness\u2014the reason why you\u2019re sad\u2014chances are you\u2019re not experiencing clinical depression.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>I remember, not long back, having a young lady come bouncing into the office to tell me that she believed she was depressed and that she thought she needed medication. I asked her when it started and what had happened. She said that, a couple weeks ago, she dumped her boyfriend. And you know, I kind of looked at her and smiled a little bit\u2014thought maybe she needed a new haircut and a nice dress. But I didn\u2019t think she actually needed an antidepressant. There was a <em>reason<\/em> why she was sad. She was sad because she had sustained a loss. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, May 23<sup>rd<\/sup>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOur host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. Does God sometimes have a purpose in taking us into a valley where we will experience profound sadness or grieving?\u00a0 We\u2019re going to spend some time talking about that today. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition. You know, the subject we are talking about this week\u2014about bipolar disorder, mood disorder, and depression\u2014this is an issue in increasing numbers of families. Dennis\u2014as we\u2019ve said, it\u2019s a disruptive issue for families\u2014it threatens marriages \/ it breaks up families. When it\u2019s diagnosed with a teenager, parents are really unsure and troubled about what to do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And in all of the cases that you mention, Bob, there is all this conflicting data, and voices, and opinion. You really wonder: \u201cWho do you listen to?\u2014\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cis it the medical community?\u2014the vitamin community that has all kinds of solutions for things?\u2014 all kinds of therapies that are being recommended for mood disorders?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, we\u2019re going to take our own shot at it here today. Dr. Charlie Hodges joins us again on the broadcast. Charlie, welcome back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>It\u2019s good to be here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Charlie is, as I mentioned earlier, a family physician. He is a licensed marital and family therapist. He and his wife Helen have been married since 1971\u2014have four children. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe has been studying issues like depression and bipolar disorder for a number of years and has written a book called <em>Good Mood, Bad Mood<\/em>. What causes these mood disorders like depression \/ like bipolar disorder?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>Nobody really knows. That is at the bottom of the problem. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere was a good blog that was written about the fact that several of the drug manufacturers \/ pharmaceutical companies are shuttering their psychiatric medication research units. The reason why is because there is no novel medication coming down the road, at this point. The reason why there are no new drugs coming down the pipeline is because <em>we don\u2019t know<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf we understood the pathology that was behind depression \/ if we understood the pathology that was behind bipolar disorder, and we could define it at cell level, then, we would be able to design new medication that would be helpful and beneficial. So, the truth of the matter is\u2014at this point in time, we do <em>not<\/em> <em>know<\/em> what the underlying cause for depression is \/ we <em>don\u2019t<\/em> <em>know<\/em> what the underlying cause of bipolar disorder is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>If somebody comes to your office and says, \u201cI think I may have strep throat,\u201d you can do a culture. You can determine whether the bacteria or the disease is present in them. If somebody comes and says, \u201cI think I\u2019m depressed,\u201d there is no swab \/ there is no blood test\u2014there is nothing that you can do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAll you can do is hear them list their symptoms and conclude, based on their symptoms, whether that\u2019s legitimate depression or not. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>And if the physician or the provider involved is doing their job, they\u2019ll match those symptoms up against the criteria that is in the DSM. Unfortunately, that doesn\u2019t happen very much. So, it\u2019s all subjective. There\u2019s almost <em>no <\/em>objective aspect to it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, you\u2019re a family physician. If I came to you\u2014you\u2019re my family doctor\u2014and I said: \u201cCharlie, here is what is going on. I sleep 16 hours a day. I have no motivation to get up. I entertain suicidal thoughts. I\u2019m just lifeless. I just\u2014I don\u2019t want to live anymore.\u201d\u00a0 Doesn\u2019t that sound like depression?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: \u201c<\/strong>Are you eating or not eating?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: \u201c<\/strong>I don\u2019t have any appetite.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: \u201c<\/strong>Are you still playing golf, or have you lost interest in that?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: \u201c<\/strong>No; I don\u2019t want to play golf. I don\u2019t even want to go out of the house.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>At that point, as long as it\u2019s more than two weeks, you\u2019ve met the criteria that would be necessary for you to have a diagnosis. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, I\u2019d be asking the question, \u201cWhat happened when this started?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You say I meet the criteria. A lot of doctors, at that point, will go: \u201cThat sounds like depression. Here is your prescription.\u201d\u00a0 But you say, \u201cThey ought to go a step farther.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>Yes\u2014going back into the history and find out whether or not this is an issue with regard to normal sadness versus disordered sadness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere is a very good book by Jerome Wakefield and Allan Horwitz\u2014the title of it is <em>The Loss of Sadness<\/em>, and the subtitle is <em>How Psychiatry Turned Normal Sadness into Depressive Disorder<\/em>. What those two write about, for a good long time, is the fact that, in our society, we no longer talk about being sad. As one writer said, \u201cPeople no longer say, \u2018I\u2019m sad.\u2019\u00a0 They say, \u2018I\u2019m\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014\u201c\u2019depressed.\u2019\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>Yes; that\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>And the reason why they do that is because we\u2019ve been <em>taught<\/em> to do that since the 19\u2014late 1980s\u2014with the advent of medication that could be used to treat. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, when I\u2019m talking to someone who is depressed, what I want to know from them is: \u201cWhat\u2019s happened?\u00a0 When did this start?\u00a0 What happened when it started?\u201d I can remember, not long back, having a young lady come bouncing into the office to tell me that she believed she was depressed and that she thought she needed medication. I asked her when it started and what had happened. She said that, a couple weeks ago, she\u2019d dumped her boyfriend. And you know, I kind of looked at her and smiled a little bit\u2014and thought maybe she needed a new haircut and a nice dress\u2014but I didn\u2019t think she actually needed an antidepressant. There was a <em>reason<\/em> why she was sad. She was sad because she had sustained a loss. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou could say the same thing about men who lose jobs. When they lose their job, their mood will decline. Their mood will worsen, depending on how long the situation is; and then\u2014when I\u2019m teaching this, I always look out across the class and say: \u201cWhen does the young lady get better?\u201d and \u201cWhen does the guy get better?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd they know the young lady gets better when she finds a new boyfriend; right?\u00a0 Then, the guy gets better when he gets his job back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You\u2019re both a physician\u2014family physician\u2014and a licensed counselor. I want you to take off your physician hat for a moment, put your counselor hat on, and help us look at <em>loss<\/em> through a biblical grid. What do you think God was up to when He allowed loss to come into our lives?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>Well, I would say, like C.S. Lewis said: \u201cPain is God\u2019s megaphone.\u201d If He wants to get our attention, He allows something to come into our life that is most disagreeable. I believe that, actually, sorrow is a created part of our being\u2014I believe that God put it there. It\u2019s there on purpose, and it\u2019s there\u2014meant to drive us to Him\u2014lots of good examples in the Bible. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI like Hannah because Hannah spoke to my heart; right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA couple of years ago, I had something really, really ugly happen in my life. I always smile and say: \u201cI\u2019m not going to give you the details. I won\u2019t bore you with them, but I can tell you that it was a <em>major loss<\/em>.\u201d\u00a0 And I\u2014<em>for<\/em> <em>days<\/em>, the only way I would get along was I knew I had to get up and get out of bed; I knew I needed to keep breathing, and I knew I had to keep running. If I quit doing those two things, I was lost. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd shortly after that, I had to go on a vacation. It\u2019s one of those kinds of deals where\u2014you planned the vacation, you bought the airline tickets, your cousins in Southern California are expecting you to be there\u2014and you wouldn\u2019t have gone for any <em>reason<\/em>, under the circumstances; but I had to go. So, I went off to Southern California. The first Sunday I\u2019m there, I\u2019m in church with my cousins. The pastor, Stan Van Den Berg, is preaching on Hannah. And there were two things that I wrote on the edge of my bulletin\u2014and that are in my book. One of them is that God never lets anything come into our lives without purpose and without reason. Then, the other is that Hannah\u2019s name means \u201cgrace\u201d\u2014that\u2019s what it means in Hebrew.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHannah\u2019s name means\u201d grace.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd of course, she had no children. Her rival had ten children; but you know the truth of the matter of that story is\u2014is that the story isn\u2019t about infertility. The story is really about how God chose to change Hannah. That was what the story was about. The story is how God is going to change Hannah by grace. And the passage in Samuel says that God had closed her womb. I mean, she wasn\u2019t infertile by accident\u2014she was infertile on <em>purpose<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd what you <em>see<\/em>, as you read through the text, is that God uses this to change her from the woman who said, \u201cGive me children or I\u2019ll die,\u201d to the woman who, on that given day, can take Samuel, and give him back to God, and leave him\u2014leave him in the temple, and walk off, and leave him. She went from being a woman who couldn\u2019t live without children to a woman who no longer worshipped having children. That\u2019s what the story is about. And I listened to that\u2014<em>that<\/em> gave me strength. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHannah is a great example of someone who had sustained serious loss and who\u2014if she were alive today, what would happen to her?\u00a0 She would be diagnosed with what?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014with depression. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>Certainly, with depression. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>And certainly, would be treated and would be worse for the wear. It probably wouldn\u2019t make any difference. The reason why it wouldn\u2019t make any difference is because you can\u2019t treat sadness with a drug that\u2019s meant to treat a disease; you know?\u00a0 When you say that depression is a disease, then, the medicines that are meant to treat a disease really don\u2019t work in dealing with human sadness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I know some parents who had a teenage daughter\u2014that they felt like was depressed and was dealing with real depression. They took her to a counselor, and the counselor put her on Prozac<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. The child said to the parents, \u201cYou can\u2019t give me a pill that will make me happy.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>No. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And the interesting thing about that is she was <em>right<\/em>. The parents found that out through the experience of that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI sometimes kind of pinch myself that I get the privilege of talking with men, like you, who\u2019ve made a lifetime study out of certain things and that I get the privilege of gleaning wisdom. One man we had the privilege, a number of years ago, to interview really introduced the theme of loss to me on a whole new level. It was Dr. Jerry Sittser. Bob knows the story\u2014he wrote a book called <em>A Grace Disguised<\/em>\u2014interesting, it goes back to Hannah\u2014<em>A Grace Disguised<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSince that time and, really, since that conversation with Jerry Sittser and how he dealt with loss, I\u2019ve viewed what God\u2019s up to a little differently in my life because I think life is one long process of having mountaintop experiences; but along the way, you\u2019re going to have losses. How you deal with the losses, biblically, can determine your hope, how you live, your perspective, the peace about which you live life, and whether you do become profoundly sad and withdraw from other people and end up not being used by God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>I think the best chapter in the New Testament to help people who have an identifiable loss\u2014people who are struggling\u2014is John, Chapter 11. It just speaks <em>volumes<\/em> to the individual who has sustained loss about what God is up to in their lives. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is the account of the death of Lazarus and Jesus coming and raising him to life again; right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>Oh, yes. From the outset, we know that Jesus knows what is going on. He knows <em>entirely<\/em> what is happening. He sits down and <em>waits<\/em> until Lazarus has died. So, I think that\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So, He waits until he is <em>stinking<\/em>. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>Yes\u2014in the grave for four days. And from that, we also then know he had a <em>plan<\/em>\u2014none of this is happening by accident. Then, you see the tender interaction between Jesus and Martha: \u201cWhere were You when I needed you?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cIf You had been here, my brother would not have died.\u201d\u00a0 Then, her request\u2014you know, \u201cI know whatever You ask God for,\u201d at this point, \u201cHe\u2019ll do for You.\u201d\u00a0 Then, He says plainly, \u201cYour brother will rise again.\u201d\u00a0 And she\u2014poof\u2014she dismisses it \/ it goes right by. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd then, we see the same interaction with Mary and, then, the weeping. Then, we see Jesus <em>weep<\/em>, which is strange when you think about it because, in minutes, Jesus is going to raise Lazarus from the dead. This is already done\u2014it\u2019s going to happen\u2014and He weeps, anyway, which means that He cares. We know that Jesus <em>knows<\/em> all about it. We know that He has a plan for it and that He <em>cares<\/em> about it. And then, when Jesus had wept enough, He acted. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI say, \u201cYou know, if you really want to help people who have lost something, that\u2019s the pattern.\u201d\u00a0 You have to be willing to know something about their problem. You have to have a <em>plan<\/em> in process for how you\u2019re going to help them. You really do have to care about them; and then, it requires action. So, I always take people, who are struggling with big losses\u2014I take them to John, Chapter 11\u2014not on the day. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI always say that the lady who just lost her husband\u2014she needs something out of Psalm 46 in place\u2014but, usually, by the time they get to me, they\u2019ve struggled with this for a while. This is going on weeks, months, maybe even years. At that point, they are looking for the exit. So, I take them first to John, Chapter 11. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You know, it\u2019s interesting to me\u2014and this is kind of a new \u201caha\u201d for me\u2014but you look at the hymn book of Israel\u2014and you look at how much anguish, and despair, and depression, and discouragement, and sadness there is. You see every word there is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Then, God says: \u201cNow, sing that back to me as a congregation. I want to hear you singing this about your despair.\u201d\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You\u2019re talking about the Psalms. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I\u2019m talking about the Psalms. I\u2019m talking about God delighting in His children singing: \u201cOh, Lord, how long will You forget me?\u00a0 How long will You withhold Your favor from me?\u201d\u00a0 You would think God would say: \u201cEnough of your nagging!\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cSing Psalm 100\u201d\u2014you know\u2014\u201cbecause that\u2019s a good one\u201d; but here\u2019s God saying: \u201cNo; I want your mountaintops and your valleys lived out in My presence. I want you to bring them to Me\u2014together, there\u2019ll be a sanctification that will happen here\u201d; right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>He\u2019s saying: \u201cI want you to bring them to Me. In the end, embrace <em>Me<\/em> in the midst of suffering\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cthese losses.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right. So, my question for you is\u2014the patient who comes and says: \u201cI feel like, in this tremendous loss I\u2019ve just experienced\u2014I know why I\u2019m sad; but I\u2019m sad to a point where I\u2019m in despair, where I don\u2019t want to function. I just think it would be good if I went on antidepressants for a little period until I got passed it.\u201d\u00a0 What would your counsel back to that person be?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>I had a patient come through, a while back. I sat down and listened to the story that he told. He had some really bad things going on in his life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey would be enough to cause a normal person to be struggling with sadness. I told him: \u201cWell, from what you\u2019ve told me, I <em>know<\/em> that your situation is going to change. Given time, this will moderate. We have two options here. I can send you to talk to someone.\u201d If they say they want to go talk to somebody, then, I have the opportunity to send them to somebody who can do pastoral counseling \/ biblical counseling, or send them to the psychiatrist, or whomever they want to go to. But I can send them to talk to somebody\u2014which, according to the research that we\u2019re doing right now, it works just as well as the medication. That\u2019s the current research for 90 percent of the people who get labeled \u201cdepressed\u201d\u2014just going and talking to somebody works just as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cOr I can give you the medicine. But I tell you this: \u2018The medicine that you will take will change your personality.\u2019\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u201cWhile I\u2019m on it or for good?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>\u201cJust while you\u2019re on it.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u201cOkay.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>\u201cAnd you really need to think about whether you want that part of you changed.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe individual took the medicine and came back later and said: \u201cYou know, I thought about what you said a lot. I decided I didn\u2019t want to do that.\u201d\u00a0 So, I would not refuse a person\u2019s request for an antidepressant who wanted it, as a physician; but I really do try to offer them what I <em>know<\/em>, from the current research, works better. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Would there be\u2014with the one or two percent who fit the <em>old<\/em> definition of depression\u2014they don\u2019t have a cause for it \/ they don\u2019t know why\u2014they are just chronically clinically depressed. Is there medicine that will help them or will talking it through with somebody help them?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>I\u2019d say both. The medicines that we have seem to work for the people who are the very seriously depressed. That means that, if you look at the difference between the placebo group and the treated group, it separates enough to be what we call clinically significant\u2014you know, there is enough difference in the treated group versus the untreated group so that we could say, \u201cWe think this probably works.\u201d\u00a0 So, yes; there is some benefit. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut certainly, going and talking to someone is <em>always <\/em>going to be of benefit. I always smile and say that\u2019s where I think biblical counseling has the greatest hope to offer people, because we have <em>real<\/em> hope to offer. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I had a friend who was in a marriage, where his wife was\u2014I don\u2019t know how else to describe it\u2014it just seemed like depression took her out of the game \/ it took her out of life; and she couldn\u2019t function. You\u2019re not saying, in those situations, that that\u2019s not a real disease or a real illness, or are you saying that?\u00a0 Do you believe depression is a \u201cdisease\u201d or illness?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>For the 10 percent\u2014the people who cannot tell me why it is they are sad\u2014then, the question is: \u201cWhat is going on in their life, medically?\u201d\u00a0 And the answer to that question is that: \u201cWe don\u2019t exactly know.\u201d\u00a0 So, I have to say, \u201cI don\u2019t know.\u201d\u00a0 That doesn\u2019t mean I don\u2019t think it\u2019s a disease. It just means I can\u2019t give you an absolute answer about that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI would tell you that I think the best part of what\u2019s going on, now, in medicine is\u2014like at the National Institute of Mental Health, Thomas Insel\u2014he is a psychiatrist, who <em>runs<\/em> the National Institute of Mental Health\u2014he said that, concerning depression\u2014that we have never been able to demonstrate a chemical imbalance that\u2019s associated with depression. It\u2019s not an exact quote, but that\u2019s pretty much what he said. He indicated, in that interview, that, actually, the National Institute of Mental Health was turning their interest towards cognitive behavioral therapy\u2014<em>talking<\/em> to people about their problems\u2014because they believed that there is a lot more ground being made doing <em>that<\/em> than investing more money in research for medication. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I would say: \u201cYes, I believe that there is something wrong with someone who tells me that they\u2019re sad and they meet the criteria for depression. I don\u2019t exactly know what it is.\u201d\u00a0 I\u2019m not saying it\u2019s not a disease\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And you\u2019re certainly not saying that it\u2019s not real. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>No; absolutely\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Obviously, there are people who can\u2019t get out of bed\u2014who lose their zest for living. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>And I think the most important thing is for a person like that, first and foremost, is to make sure that they don\u2019t have some other underlying medical problem that is causing what\u2019s going on; because there are a number of medical ailments which do affect people\u2019s moods. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, I want to talk about that a little bit later. I want to make two book recommendations to our listeners. First of all, the Bible\u2014get in the Book. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That\u2019s a good one\u2014\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Charles: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014I\u2019ve read that! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Get in the Book. Read the Psalms, which have these emotions and these moods expressed. Get to know the God of the Bible\u2014that, ultimately, is the message of today\u2019s broadcast. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, secondly, I think Dr. Hodges\u2019 book here, <em>Good Mood, Bad Mood<\/em>, will make for some very healthy reading\u2014especially for people who may have a teenager who is struggling with some of these disorders, or they\u2019re in a marriage, or they\u2019ve got a brother \/ a sister \/ or perhaps a parent\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014it will give perspective and <em>help<\/em> where you need it. And that\u2019s why we\u2019ve been talking about this today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, and of course, we have copies of Dr. Hodges\u2019 book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. We\u2019d encourage listeners to order a copy from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com. Or call to order at 1-800-FL-TODAY. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, we want to stress what we\u2019ve already said this week; and that is, a part of the protocol\u2014if you are experiencing sadness or depression that seems to be overwhelming\u2014is to talk to a doctor. Sit down with a medical professional\u2014get a work-up done. See if there is something that may be going on, biologically, that would be affecting you. But I think reading a copy of Dr. Hodges\u2019 book will provide you with some real clarity and some help here. In fact, the subtitle of the book is <em>Help and Hope for Depression and Bipolar Disorder<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong><br><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, you can order a copy of the book from us at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order at 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe reason we explore subjects like this, and have conversations like this, is because we understand that there are so many factors that can lead to either harmony or disharmony in a family\u2014so many factors that can cause us to either pull together and rally together, as a family, or can push us apart \/ push us into isolation. Our goal, here, at FamilyLife is to help every home become a godly home. We\u2019re grateful for those of you who support this ministry and support that mission through your financial gifts. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, during the month of May, we\u2019ve been asking listeners to consider making a one-time gift that would help toward a goal we\u2019ve set. We\u2019re trying to raise $1.1 million during the month of May. We\u2019ve already heard from a number of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners, who have said, \u201cWe want to help you reach that goal.\u201d The purpose is to have funds available during the summer to continue working on a number of projects that are underway. The summer months are when we often see a decline in funding. We\u2019re hoping, by establishing this fund, we will be able to continue moving forward over the next several months on a variety of projects designed to help strengthen your marriage and your family.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, \u201cThanks,\u201d to those of you who have already given. If you\u2019re a regular listener and you\u2019ve not yet made a one-time donation in support of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, it\u2019s easy to do. Whatever amount you can afford, go to FamilyLifeToday.com and donate online; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr you can mail your donation to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR;\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tand our zip code is 72223. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we want to talk about Bipolar Disorder I\u2014what happens when there are severe mood swings going on in somebody\u2019s life? Dr. Charles Hodges will be back with us tomorrow for that. I hope you can be here as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We hope to see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> ministry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/304516","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=304516"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=304516"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=304516"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=304516"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=304516"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=304516"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=304516"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}