{"id":304450,"date":"2017-04-05T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2017-04-05T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/redemption-and-repentance\/"},"modified":"2017-04-05T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2017-04-05T15:00:00","slug":"redemption-and-repentance","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/redemption-and-repentance\/","title":{"rendered":"Redemption and Repentance"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Are you married to a controlling man? Are you controlling? Ron and Jan Welch talk about the challenges their marriage faced before Ron found help for his controlling behavior.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2017-04-05.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"29.28M","filesize_raw":"30702053","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2082,2902],"tags":[5295,4584,5585,5588,4051,5586,2212,5587],"podcast_series":[8058],"cwp_profile":[9375],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-304450","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-communication","category-resolving-conflict","tag-controlling","tag-fear","tag-insecure","tag-low-self-esteem","tag-resolving-conflict","tag-safety","tag-setting-boundaries","tag-threats","podcast_series-the-controlling-husband","cwp_profile-ron-and-jan-welch","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/304450\/redemption-and-repentance","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/304450\/redemption-and-repentance","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"gWq2QLSzlb\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/redemption-and-repentance\/\">Redemption and Repentance<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/redemption-and-repentance\/embed\/#?secret=gWq2QLSzlb\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Redemption and Repentance&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"gWq2QLSzlb\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2017-04-05.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2017-04-05.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We do have to tell you\u2014we thought, \u201cIf we\u2019re going to bring in Ron to talk about this, we need to bring in somebody who can keep him honest\u201d; right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>Definitely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, it\u2019s their story. Ron is a professor at Denver Seminary. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRon, in your book, you use an illustration that I really like. In fact, I\u2019ll give you credit for it when I use it\u2014but I will use this illustration\u2014you say, \u201cMarriage is a lot like Niagara Falls.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Yes; I got that metaphor, years ago, working in the prison system, from a man named Bill Fleeman, who worked with anger control in men. I asked him\u2014I said: \u201cI think this is true in marriage\u2014I think this is really what\u2019s happening here. If you go to Niagara Falls, you see all sorts of power of the water where Niagara Falls is; but what you don\u2019t often see is\u2014a couple miles, upriver, it looks totally different. We spend most of our relationships dealing with each other in the middle of the falls.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, there are some interesting warning signs as you get closer to the falls. There are some flashing lights. There are, maybe, some signs, out to the side. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I was there years ago, they even had a cable over in case somebody was sitting in a barrel, thinking, \u201cWell, I might change my mind at the last second; I\u2019ll grab the cable.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere are lots of ways you can get out of the process, early on; but if you wait until you are in the middle of saying those things that you can say\u2014or giving her the look, that I have, that can say, \u201cI don\u2019t want you to say anything,\u201d\u2014or any of the intimidation or manipulation\u2014you\u2019re really already over the falls. You just have to settle in and watch whatever destruction and damage occurs. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0I ask couples to learn: \u201cHow far back, up river, do you need to go before you can actually be aware, and control, and make different choices?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And dealing with issues <em>before<\/em>\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014the destruction occurs\u2014in the calm water, when the emotions are settled, when you are both rested. In fact, one of the things I had to smile about, as I read your book, was\u2014you said, \u201cJust be careful about having arguments early in the morning or late at night.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Yes; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>They\u2019re just\u2014they are getting close to the edge of the falls; aren\u2019t they?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Yes; yes. It could be someone coming home from work that\u2019s tired. It could be someone, who is having a struggle with an infant, who is having colic and is having a tough day. You can\u2019t expect that things will go well when you already have\u2014I\u2019m a baseball coach\u2014and you have two-and-a-half strikes against you. It\u2019s kind of ridiculous to think, \u201cWell, this is the best time to bring it up.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; we talk to couples at our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup><\/em> marriage getaways about the fact that there needs to be loving confrontation in a marriage relationship; but part of loving confrontation is thinking: \u201cIs this the right time to say this?\u00a0 Is this the right setting to say this?\u00a0 What are the right words to use to say this?\u201d\u00a0 You give some pre-thought to the conversation rather than just opening your mouth and seeing what comes out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Ron: <\/strong>It also includes humility. You have to be in a state of mind that says, \u201cI want to understand and know what she has to say to me.\u201d If my state of mind is: \u201cI want to tell her how she is wrong!\u201d we\u2019ve got a problem; because my state of mind has to be: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cI\u2019m entering into communication with her to grow and learn what God has for me to learn from her in what she has to say,\u201d\u2014not for me to argue with her and win some battle. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And that was a major turning point in your relationship\u2014when you moved from \u201cI\u2019m talking to tell\u2026\u201d to say, \u201cI\u2019m going to start listening.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob: <\/strong>That humility had to grow over time\u2014I mean, that\u2019s something you have to <em>cultivate<\/em>. How do you coach somebody to <em>grow<\/em> in humility?\u00a0 What are steps you can do so that you can start listening better?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>You know, one of the first things is to realize is what can happen when you don\u2019t see yourself as the authority\u2014who is the only one who has information to share. If I go into the communication and I say: \u201cWow! God\u2019s given me this amazing woman, who seems to know me, and forgive, and accept, and love me, and all these things that I wish I could do better in my life. Wouldn\u2019t it be nice if I\u2019d shut up and listen to her share some wisdom and help me learn what I need to learn, rather than thinking I have some corner on the market of godly information?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Have you ever been to our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> I have not\u2014no. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> There is a point in the conference where we challenge both husband and wife to look at their spouse and say, \u201cShe is not your enemy,\u201d \/ \u201cHe is not your enemy.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Instead, you need to view your spouse as a <em>gift<\/em> from God to you with all kinds of new capacities, all kinds of perspectives, with all kinds of gifts and abilities. It\u2019s like Barbara taking me to museums. She\u2019s taking me, as a man, and exposing me to some things that I needed to know about. And she\u2019s exposed me to a lot I didn\u2019t know about. [Laughter] Is that what you have found in your wife, Jan, since you\u2019ve finally dropped your guard and let her in? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Absolutely\u2014things like you\u2019ve mentioned\u2014patience \/ acceptance. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe loves people for who they are \/ she doesn\u2019t try to change them. She\u2019s so excited when\u2014there is a joke between us that everybody loves Jan; because I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve been in a social relationship where she doesn\u2019t come away with a new friend. My guess is she is going to have seven new Facebook<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>friends, leaving here today. [Laughter] I mean, she\u2019ll just\u2014she <em>loves<\/em> people <em>so<\/em> well. I\u2019ve learned to do that from watching her and accepting that from her.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Ron, how would you coach a wife, who is in one of these situations? She has addressed it with her husband \/ she has tried to draw some boundaries. He is just stubborn\u2014he says, \u201cYou\u2019re the problem.\u201d He won\u2019t listen to outside counsel \/ other people have come along and said\u2014and he says: \u201cYou guys are just taking <em>her<\/em> side. You\u2019re not listening to <em>my<\/em> side\u201d; and he won\u2019t go anywhere. What do you do?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>I encourage wives to ask two questions\u2014and these are not easy questions; but they are questions that a husband, who does love his wife and who, also, has a faith that says: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cYou need to learn how to love; because you may not be humanly born with it, intrinsically.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI ask them to ask the question first: \u201cTell me how your behavior honors, and respects, and loves me. Tell me how this shows me God\u2019s love. If you can answer that question, I\u2019ll shut up\u2014I\u2019ll say, \u2018Okay; apparently, you\u2019re being a godly man.\u2019\u201d <em>No one<\/em> has come close to answering that question yet. You can\u2019t <em>act<\/em> this way and disobey God\u2019s Word directly on the other hand. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe other question I\u2019ll ask them to ask is for them to say: \u201cYou say you love me, and you say that you <em>want <\/em>to have a better marriage; but you say it\u2019s my fault\u2014I\u2019m causing you to do this. What you are telling me, then, is that you have no personal responsibility for what you are doing. That\u2019s interesting to me, because it seems like it would probably be both of us. I\u2019m on my knees, telling you what things I need to change, in front of God. How come you are not on your knees asking for God to help you change yourself?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen you ask those two questions\u2014I don\u2019t care how narcissistic or egotistical you are, as a man\u2014if there is an ounce of the Spirit inside you, that\u2019s going to convict you. You are going to be saying: \u201cOh my goodness! What have I done?!\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u201cI\u2019ve been busted here!\u201d\u2014yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You know, Ron, I\u2019m listening to you, and I\u2019m going: \u201cIt\u2019s one thing if the guy <em>won\u2019t<\/em> hear\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014\u201crefuses to hear, won\u2019t embrace humility, won\u2019t lower his ego and hear the truth about himself. It\u2019s another issue, however, if the wife has had these conversations with him, and she\u2019s now wondering if there is an emotional capacity \/ a mental capacity to process what she\u2019s saying and to fit it together and to truly hear and act on it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cDoes he have psychological problems? Is there something going on here?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> What\u2019s she to do then? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Well, you can\u2019t underestimate the danger of a man, who truly is not allowing God to lead his life and who has desires to really control and have power over women. He probably does that in most areas of his life. And the women, who are listening, who are in a relationship where they really fear for their safety\u2014I have <em>no question<\/em> that that is not something you can say: \u201cWell, you can just stay in there as long as possible. Hang in there. Maybe, he won\u2019t hurt you,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s not godly \/ that\u2019s not biblical\u2014that\u2019s not safe in any way. There is delineation between a <em>violent<\/em> individual, who wants to <em>harm<\/em> someone else, and someone who doesn\u2019t know any other way to live. I was one of those guys who needed to be <em>taught<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere is no question\u2014some guys who need to have other types of responses\u2014like having the law involved, having domestic violence centers available, and being able to get out of that situation into a safe place. The idea is that he wants to keep it a secret. He wants to keep all of this between him and her because he can control that. My encouragement is that the <em>more<\/em> people that know the better. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>There were a number of practical tools \/ practices that you learned to exhibit in your relationship with Jan that made a big difference. One of them starts with Jan\u2014and that was what you did with a concept that, I guess, you guys came up with\u2014which was called \u201cLearned Helplessness,\u201d where you had grown up with the loss of love, abandonment, hurt, and betrayal. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>Exactly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Explain what somebody is to do if they\u2019ve learned how to be helpless and almost find security in that state. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>At first, you\u2019re really not aware of it\u2014that you are using that as a crutch. I lost\u2014as my parents divorced, we lost my dad \/ I lost my sister [her death]. I ended up losing my mom and both sisters. By the time I was nine, I had\u2014not to death but through separation\u2014had lost every member of my family. That trust is gone in a lot of ways; because \u201cIf I love you, then, something is going to happen to you.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think once that becomes your mantra\u2014\u201cI can\u2019t do anything because of the loss,\u201d \/ \u201cI can\u2019t achieve things,\u201d\u2014and then you get into a marriage, where you\u2019re also told that\u2014you think that 90 percent of the time; and that other 10 percent, someone else is giving it to you. So, you really must not be able to do things\u2014you\u2019re not smart enough \/ you\u2019re not pretty enough. At some point, you have to stop saying or thinking that way; because you\u2019re never going to move forward through God\u2019s love \/ accepting God\u2019s love\u2014that\u2019s what I should say. I always think I knew that; but really understanding it and <em>accepting<\/em> it are two different things and \u201cIf God loves me the way I am, then, there is something good about me.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So, as you began to grow in your own knowledge of the love of God\u2014experience that personally\u2014that made the risk of loving your husband possible. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>Yes; it did. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>But at that point, you hadn\u2019t experienced\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>I had always loved him\u2014but deeper level of love. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes; that\u2019s exactly right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRon, you talk about another tool you use and have learned to use with Jan called \u201cThe Kindness Filter\u201d in how you relate to her. Tell us how you came upon this and how does it work? How do you practice it in your marriage?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>You know, the way I look at that, Dennis, is\u2014I want to decide if what I\u2019m going to do or going to say passes the kindness test: \u201cIf I take this action, will she end up being closer to a relationship with God that will help her feel trusted and loved?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the things I found, for controlling husbands, is: \u201cMan! This stuff gets worse if there is pressure going on.\u201d If there is pressure at work \/ if there is tension going on in the family, it\u2019s like it just multiplies it a hundred times over. That meeting that was supposedly so important I had to get to because I\u2019m running late\/ \u201cOh, well,\u201d\u2014you know, the kid who is waiting at the soccer field, because you\u2019re supposed to pick him up\/ he\u2019s going to be mad at you for not being there\u2014if, right now, I have to pull over on the side of the road, step out of the car, and give my wife a hug and say: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cI\u2019m sorry. I was <em>wrong<\/em>. I need to phrase this differently,\u201d or if I need to shut up and say, \u201cI can\u2019t respond right now because, if I do, I may say something I\u2019m going to regret,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s fine. I have to stop long enough to make certain that what I do builds her up rather than tears her down. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Okay; so, tell me about yesterday. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>This is why I say, \u201cI\u2019m a <em>recovering<\/em> controlling husband.\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right; we\u2019ve got you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Okay. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>A little reality here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Alright; fair. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>What happened?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Travel is always stressful. It started from getting up early in the morning\u2014not necessarily having enough sleep. As I mentioned earlier, don\u2019t have arguments\u2014don\u2019t have them when you don\u2019t have enough sleep. You get a little less sleep before an early morning flight. Things happen on airlines\u2014airlines don\u2019t always run on time. Then, you have a situation where, for whatever reason, you\u2019re realizing you are more and more tense, and more and more worried, and you are concerned. You\u2019re thinking about: \u201cWhat if this\u2026? What if this\u2026? What if this\u2026?\u201d\u00a0 And she\u2019s been with me the entire time, living through that experience. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want your listeners to understand\u2014this is not some process, where you just suddenly go through and \u201cHey, everything is cool now.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>This is a minute-by-minute, day-by-day commitment to place the values and the welfare of your spouse above your own. That\u2019s why I talk so much, in the book, about selflessness\u2014that concept of thinking of the other before yourself. To me, that is <em>such<\/em> a key. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, I have to believe that, while this was happening, Jan was practicing something you\u2019ve written about in your book\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Okay. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014that you have to share with our listeners; because I think this has great takeaway value here. It\u2019s your three rules of engagement. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>You\u2019ve heard about telling kids to take time-outs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes; for toddlers. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Well, and also, for controlling husbands. [Laughter]\u00a0 So, you have to accept the fact that there are times\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>[Laughter] This is what I loved about it\u2014it\u2019s like: \u201cOh, yes!\u00a0 Absolutely!\u00a0 This is going to be practical for folks.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Wait! You\u2019re saying a wife ought to say to her husband, \u201cYou need a time-out.\u201d Is that what you are saying?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Well, I\u2019m saying you have to find a way to disengage. You\u2019ve been down the path before\u2014we talked about Niagara Falls. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>You <em>know<\/em> what\u2019s coming. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes; \u201cBeen around this corner.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Why on earth would you go over it again in the barrel?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, let me just ask: \u201cIn the middle of this time-out\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014\u201c\u2019Take a time-out here for a second,\u2019\u2014Jan, when all of this pressure was building, could you tell, \u2018We\u2019re getting near the edge of Niagara Falls\u2019?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>Oh, yes; it started with realizing we should have gotten up half an hour earlier. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Jan: <\/strong>And through the whole drive\u2014we\u2019re driving\u2014he is saying that\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>He\u2019s intense\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>\u2014repeatedly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u201cWe should have gotten up early.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>Finally, I just said: \u201cBabe, we didn\u2019t. There is just <em>nothing<\/em> you can do about it.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So, tell the truth. Did you tell him to go sit in the restroom\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014he needs a time-out right now. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014in the airplane?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>We didn\u2019t have time for the time-out. [Laughter]\u00a0 We wouldn\u2019t make the flight! [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, Ron, what\u2019s the second rule of engagement here?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>One of the things you need to do is to make sure that time-out happens, whether the other person wants it or not. For instance, I would have had to listen to her yesterday if she said it. There were two or three times when she, in her kind way, made it clear to me: \u201cYou have complained enough. That\u2019s\u2026.\u201d \/ in essence, \u201cI\u2019m done.\u201d\u00a0 That\u2019s something she never would have had the voice to do before. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn order to do that, you have to be able to trust the other person when they say: \u201cWe\u2019re going down the wrong path. We need to stop.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, step one is: \u201cIdentify that you\u2019re on the wrong path.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Ron: <\/strong>Step two is: \u201cTake a time-out and get out of it.\u201d And step three is: \u201cYou don\u2019t just leave it there.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA lot of wives tell me: \u201cThat\u2019s fine. We can\u2014but we never get back to it.\u201d\u00a0 So, when you take the time-out, you sit back and say, \u201cWhen do we think we can deal with this?\u201d\u00a0 But you don\u2019t <em>assume<\/em> that you\u2019re going to <em>have<\/em> to deal with everything when you\u2019re in the middle of Niagara Falls. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, by the time you were airborne and at 30,000 feet, was that the time for her to say, \u201cYou know the way this went back in the car...\u201d?\u00a0 Did you have that conversation?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>Oh, pretty much. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Ron: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And when she says to you, \u201cYou know, babe, you were a little over the edge there,\u201d you can hear that today without going\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes; good for you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cYou just be quiet.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>Exactly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Good for you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Not only that\u2014but I can <em>see<\/em> that it\u2019s going to be what she has to say because I already understand\u2014because I can see what I\u2019ve done. If I\u2019m really fortunate, in the middle of the process, we\u2019ve found a way out of that already. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>There are those listening right now who may have some friends\u2014maybe, it\u2019s their brother \/ their sister who is in a marriage, where the husband is a controlling husband. Maybe, it\u2019s their adult child \/ their daughter who is in a marriage where the husband is controlling. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>What can they do?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>I think that anyone, who is a friend or a relative of someone who sees this happening, can do one of two things: You can talk to the couple together, or you can talk to the individual parties separately. And you have to, I think, decide which seems to be the way people listen best. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere are times when a family member may talk to the couple together, and there is too much defensiveness on each part\u2014they are not able to work together that way. There are other times when that works better, because they support what the other person has to say\u2014it\u2019s kind of a triangulation deal: \u201cWell, yes; she\u2019s saying this,\u201d\u2014he\u2019s trying to tell her\u2014\u201cand she\u2019s\u2026\u201d\u00a0 \u201cWait a second! If you\u2019re not controlling, why did you just interrupt her?\u201d\u2014right?\u00a0 So, there is that process. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s, by the way, the reason I think counseling works well; because you have a third party that interprets and says, \u201cYes; that\u2019s really what\u2019s happening here.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>The other thing that they could try to do is say\u2014and this is difficult\u2014and wives, sometimes, in counseling situations, have gotten frustrated with me for saying: \u201cThere is a two-way road going on here. You can take action \/ set boundaries.\u201d\u00a0 Sometimes, if a mother and father, for instance, see this happening in their children, the mom could talk with the daughter \/ the father-in-law could talk with the son and say: \u201cI would like you to tell me how what happened at dinner the other night shows honor and respect for your wife,\u201d\u2014not condemning \/ not criticizing\u2014but saying, \u201cHelp me understand how this works because I don\u2019t quite see that. Can you help me?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere was a show, a long time ago, called <em>Columbo<\/em>\u2014I\u2019m dating myself a little bit. Columbo would kind of answer questions by saying: \u201cWell, I\u2019m kind of confused. I\u2019m not sure I understand what\u2019s going on.\u201d\u00a0 He\u2019d be walking out of the room; and he\u2019d say, \u201cI\u2019ve got <em>one<\/em> more question\u2026.\u201d\u00a0 [Laughter]\u00a0 And then, he\u2019d solve the murder in front of everybody; right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Ron: <\/strong>Well, that\u2019s a <em>great<\/em> technique for family members to use with a controlling husband. It just kind of puts the person at ease a bit. They can say: \u201cWow! I don\u2019t know. I don\u2019t think I can explain it. Maybe, I need some help.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You indicated earlier that the \u201cAha!\u201d moment for you was\u2014not when you looked in a mirror and saw yourself\u2014but you looked at your sons and saw how they were treating their mother. You saw yourself in your sons. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Undoubtedly, in the years that have transpired, you\u2019ve done some training work with your sons. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Comment on how you would coach a husband and a wife who, perhaps, have allowed this to go on too long\u2014the kids have picked up on it, and they are replicating it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>I had a series of conversations with both my sons. I started by saying: \u201cI need to ask you for forgiveness, because the way I\u2019ve shown you how to be a husband and how to be a father has not been very good. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cI need to show you that I need your help to repent and to be a better dad and to be a better husband. I need you to be able to see that what I was\u2014through God\u2019s grace\u2014is not who I am and that you don\u2019t have to repeat those patterns.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat came from a point in my heart where I believe they could see the sincerity and they could understand that I was telling them: \u201cI <em>know<\/em> what this has done to you. I <em>know<\/em> the way I have controlled my wife is how I\u2019ve controlled you. I need to start over and find a way for God to build us up and help me be a better dad and a better husband.\u201d\u00a0 <br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I think that\u2019s great advice as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI really appreciate both of you, Jan and Ron, for sharing your story with our listeners. Unfortunately, there really is one more question that I have for you before we\u2019re done, here on the broadcast. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay; let me jump in before you ask the question, though, because a couple of things we need to take care of. The first is to let folks know how they can get a copy of Ron\u2019s book, <em>The Controlling Husband<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have it in our FamilyLife Resource Center. You can go, online, to FamilyLifeToday.com to order your copy; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. So, again, order <em>The Controlling Husband<\/em> book, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order at 1-800-FL-TODAY. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, the other thing is\u2014we just want to say a word of thanks to the folks who support <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. This ministry couldn\u2019t happen without our monthly Legacy Partners and those who, from time to time, will get in touch with us and say: \u201cWhat you are doing really does matter. These kinds of programs need to be heard by more people.\u201d Every time you make a donation, you make it possible for more people to hear this program more often. You also make it possible for our website to grow and expand and for us to be reaching more people with practical biblical help and hope for your marriage and your family. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, if you can help with a donation today, go to FamilyLifeToday.com. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can give online; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY and make a donation over the phone; or mail your donation to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis\u2014\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, it has been really raw at points \/ honest, certainly, as you guys have shared your journey. I think you\u2019ve brought a lot of hope to a lot of couples. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt occurred to me, Ron\u2014over the years\u2014you don\u2019t know this about <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>\u2014but I\u2019ve concluded a few broadcasts, over the years, where I have allowed the guest on the program to give a tribute to their mom or dad\u2014perhaps, a parent who is gone \/ perhaps, a parent who is still alive. It occurred to me that your wife\u2019s patience with you has not gone unnoticed by you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And I thought\u2014you know, with just a few hundred thousand people \/ of your closest friends listening on, across the country\u2014I just was wondering, \u201cWould you like to give a tribute to Jan\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>I would love to. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cas we close the broadcast?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>[Emotion in voice] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank you for being the kind of person that can show me God\u2019s love and God\u2019s acceptance through the way you\u2019ve treated me in our marriage. I want to thank you for being able to forgive me, and I want to thank you for showing me the path to become the kind of person that you believed I was capable of being. I love you, and I am so thankful you are my wife. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>And I love you too, Babe. Thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["29.28M"],"filesize_raw":["30702053"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-304450.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-304450.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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you married to a controlling man? Are you controlling? Ron and Jan Welch talk about the challenges their marriage faced before Ron found help for his controlling behavior.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2017-04-05.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We do have to tell you\u2014we thought, \u201cIf we\u2019re going to bring in Ron to talk about this, we need to bring in somebody who can keep him honest\u201d; right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>Definitely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, it\u2019s their story. Ron is a professor at Denver Seminary. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRon, in your book, you use an illustration that I really like. In fact, I\u2019ll give you credit for it when I use it\u2014but I will use this illustration\u2014you say, \u201cMarriage is a lot like Niagara Falls.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Yes; I got that metaphor, years ago, working in the prison system, from a man named Bill Fleeman, who worked with anger control in men. I asked him\u2014I said: \u201cI think this is true in marriage\u2014I think this is really what\u2019s happening here. If you go to Niagara Falls, you see all sorts of power of the water where Niagara Falls is; but what you don\u2019t often see is\u2014a couple miles, upriver, it looks totally different. We spend most of our relationships dealing with each other in the middle of the falls.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, there are some interesting warning signs as you get closer to the falls. There are some flashing lights. There are, maybe, some signs, out to the side. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I was there years ago, they even had a cable over in case somebody was sitting in a barrel, thinking, \u201cWell, I might change my mind at the last second; I\u2019ll grab the cable.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere are lots of ways you can get out of the process, early on; but if you wait until you are in the middle of saying those things that you can say\u2014or giving her the look, that I have, that can say, \u201cI don\u2019t want you to say anything,\u201d\u2014or any of the intimidation or manipulation\u2014you\u2019re really already over the falls. You just have to settle in and watch whatever destruction and damage occurs. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0I ask couples to learn: \u201cHow far back, up river, do you need to go before you can actually be aware, and control, and make different choices?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And dealing with issues <em>before<\/em>\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014the destruction occurs\u2014in the calm water, when the emotions are settled, when you are both rested. In fact, one of the things I had to smile about, as I read your book, was\u2014you said, \u201cJust be careful about having arguments early in the morning or late at night.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Yes; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>They\u2019re just\u2014they are getting close to the edge of the falls; aren\u2019t they?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Yes; yes. It could be someone coming home from work that\u2019s tired. It could be someone, who is having a struggle with an infant, who is having colic and is having a tough day. You can\u2019t expect that things will go well when you already have\u2014I\u2019m a baseball coach\u2014and you have two-and-a-half strikes against you. It\u2019s kind of ridiculous to think, \u201cWell, this is the best time to bring it up.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; we talk to couples at our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup><\/em> marriage getaways about the fact that there needs to be loving confrontation in a marriage relationship; but part of loving confrontation is thinking: \u201cIs this the right time to say this?\u00a0 Is this the right setting to say this?\u00a0 What are the right words to use to say this?\u201d\u00a0 You give some pre-thought to the conversation rather than just opening your mouth and seeing what comes out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Ron: <\/strong>It also includes humility. You have to be in a state of mind that says, \u201cI want to understand and know what she has to say to me.\u201d If my state of mind is: \u201cI want to tell her how she is wrong!\u201d we\u2019ve got a problem; because my state of mind has to be: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cI\u2019m entering into communication with her to grow and learn what God has for me to learn from her in what she has to say,\u201d\u2014not for me to argue with her and win some battle. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And that was a major turning point in your relationship\u2014when you moved from \u201cI\u2019m talking to tell\u2026\u201d to say, \u201cI\u2019m going to start listening.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob: <\/strong>That humility had to grow over time\u2014I mean, that\u2019s something you have to <em>cultivate<\/em>. How do you coach somebody to <em>grow<\/em> in humility?\u00a0 What are steps you can do so that you can start listening better?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>You know, one of the first things is to realize is what can happen when you don\u2019t see yourself as the authority\u2014who is the only one who has information to share. If I go into the communication and I say: \u201cWow! God\u2019s given me this amazing woman, who seems to know me, and forgive, and accept, and love me, and all these things that I wish I could do better in my life. Wouldn\u2019t it be nice if I\u2019d shut up and listen to her share some wisdom and help me learn what I need to learn, rather than thinking I have some corner on the market of godly information?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Have you ever been to our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> I have not\u2014no. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> There is a point in the conference where we challenge both husband and wife to look at their spouse and say, \u201cShe is not your enemy,\u201d \/ \u201cHe is not your enemy.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Instead, you need to view your spouse as a <em>gift<\/em> from God to you with all kinds of new capacities, all kinds of perspectives, with all kinds of gifts and abilities. It\u2019s like Barbara taking me to museums. She\u2019s taking me, as a man, and exposing me to some things that I needed to know about. And she\u2019s exposed me to a lot I didn\u2019t know about. [Laughter] Is that what you have found in your wife, Jan, since you\u2019ve finally dropped your guard and let her in? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Absolutely\u2014things like you\u2019ve mentioned\u2014patience \/ acceptance. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe loves people for who they are \/ she doesn\u2019t try to change them. She\u2019s so excited when\u2014there is a joke between us that everybody loves Jan; because I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve been in a social relationship where she doesn\u2019t come away with a new friend. My guess is she is going to have seven new Facebook<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>friends, leaving here today. [Laughter] I mean, she\u2019ll just\u2014she <em>loves<\/em> people <em>so<\/em> well. I\u2019ve learned to do that from watching her and accepting that from her.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Ron, how would you coach a wife, who is in one of these situations? She has addressed it with her husband \/ she has tried to draw some boundaries. He is just stubborn\u2014he says, \u201cYou\u2019re the problem.\u201d He won\u2019t listen to outside counsel \/ other people have come along and said\u2014and he says: \u201cYou guys are just taking <em>her<\/em> side. You\u2019re not listening to <em>my<\/em> side\u201d; and he won\u2019t go anywhere. What do you do?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>I encourage wives to ask two questions\u2014and these are not easy questions; but they are questions that a husband, who does love his wife and who, also, has a faith that says: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cYou need to learn how to love; because you may not be humanly born with it, intrinsically.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI ask them to ask the question first: \u201cTell me how your behavior honors, and respects, and loves me. Tell me how this shows me God\u2019s love. If you can answer that question, I\u2019ll shut up\u2014I\u2019ll say, \u2018Okay; apparently, you\u2019re being a godly man.\u2019\u201d <em>No one<\/em> has come close to answering that question yet. You can\u2019t <em>act<\/em> this way and disobey God\u2019s Word directly on the other hand. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe other question I\u2019ll ask them to ask is for them to say: \u201cYou say you love me, and you say that you <em>want <\/em>to have a better marriage; but you say it\u2019s my fault\u2014I\u2019m causing you to do this. What you are telling me, then, is that you have no personal responsibility for what you are doing. That\u2019s interesting to me, because it seems like it would probably be both of us. I\u2019m on my knees, telling you what things I need to change, in front of God. How come you are not on your knees asking for God to help you change yourself?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen you ask those two questions\u2014I don\u2019t care how narcissistic or egotistical you are, as a man\u2014if there is an ounce of the Spirit inside you, that\u2019s going to convict you. You are going to be saying: \u201cOh my goodness! What have I done?!\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u201cI\u2019ve been busted here!\u201d\u2014yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You know, Ron, I\u2019m listening to you, and I\u2019m going: \u201cIt\u2019s one thing if the guy <em>won\u2019t<\/em> hear\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014\u201crefuses to hear, won\u2019t embrace humility, won\u2019t lower his ego and hear the truth about himself. It\u2019s another issue, however, if the wife has had these conversations with him, and she\u2019s now wondering if there is an emotional capacity \/ a mental capacity to process what she\u2019s saying and to fit it together and to truly hear and act on it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cDoes he have psychological problems? Is there something going on here?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron:<\/strong> Sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> What\u2019s she to do then? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Well, you can\u2019t underestimate the danger of a man, who truly is not allowing God to lead his life and who has desires to really control and have power over women. He probably does that in most areas of his life. And the women, who are listening, who are in a relationship where they really fear for their safety\u2014I have <em>no question<\/em> that that is not something you can say: \u201cWell, you can just stay in there as long as possible. Hang in there. Maybe, he won\u2019t hurt you,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s not godly \/ that\u2019s not biblical\u2014that\u2019s not safe in any way. There is delineation between a <em>violent<\/em> individual, who wants to <em>harm<\/em> someone else, and someone who doesn\u2019t know any other way to live. I was one of those guys who needed to be <em>taught<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere is no question\u2014some guys who need to have other types of responses\u2014like having the law involved, having domestic violence centers available, and being able to get out of that situation into a safe place. The idea is that he wants to keep it a secret. He wants to keep all of this between him and her because he can control that. My encouragement is that the <em>more<\/em> people that know the better. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>There were a number of practical tools \/ practices that you learned to exhibit in your relationship with Jan that made a big difference. One of them starts with Jan\u2014and that was what you did with a concept that, I guess, you guys came up with\u2014which was called \u201cLearned Helplessness,\u201d where you had grown up with the loss of love, abandonment, hurt, and betrayal. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>Exactly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Explain what somebody is to do if they\u2019ve learned how to be helpless and almost find security in that state. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>At first, you\u2019re really not aware of it\u2014that you are using that as a crutch. I lost\u2014as my parents divorced, we lost my dad \/ I lost my sister [her death]. I ended up losing my mom and both sisters. By the time I was nine, I had\u2014not to death but through separation\u2014had lost every member of my family. That trust is gone in a lot of ways; because \u201cIf I love you, then, something is going to happen to you.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think once that becomes your mantra\u2014\u201cI can\u2019t do anything because of the loss,\u201d \/ \u201cI can\u2019t achieve things,\u201d\u2014and then you get into a marriage, where you\u2019re also told that\u2014you think that 90 percent of the time; and that other 10 percent, someone else is giving it to you. So, you really must not be able to do things\u2014you\u2019re not smart enough \/ you\u2019re not pretty enough. At some point, you have to stop saying or thinking that way; because you\u2019re never going to move forward through God\u2019s love \/ accepting God\u2019s love\u2014that\u2019s what I should say. I always think I knew that; but really understanding it and <em>accepting<\/em> it are two different things and \u201cIf God loves me the way I am, then, there is something good about me.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So, as you began to grow in your own knowledge of the love of God\u2014experience that personally\u2014that made the risk of loving your husband possible. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>Yes; it did. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>But at that point, you hadn\u2019t experienced\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>I had always loved him\u2014but deeper level of love. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes; that\u2019s exactly right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRon, you talk about another tool you use and have learned to use with Jan called \u201cThe Kindness Filter\u201d in how you relate to her. Tell us how you came upon this and how does it work? How do you practice it in your marriage?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>You know, the way I look at that, Dennis, is\u2014I want to decide if what I\u2019m going to do or going to say passes the kindness test: \u201cIf I take this action, will she end up being closer to a relationship with God that will help her feel trusted and loved?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the things I found, for controlling husbands, is: \u201cMan! This stuff gets worse if there is pressure going on.\u201d If there is pressure at work \/ if there is tension going on in the family, it\u2019s like it just multiplies it a hundred times over. That meeting that was supposedly so important I had to get to because I\u2019m running late\/ \u201cOh, well,\u201d\u2014you know, the kid who is waiting at the soccer field, because you\u2019re supposed to pick him up\/ he\u2019s going to be mad at you for not being there\u2014if, right now, I have to pull over on the side of the road, step out of the car, and give my wife a hug and say: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cI\u2019m sorry. I was <em>wrong<\/em>. I need to phrase this differently,\u201d or if I need to shut up and say, \u201cI can\u2019t respond right now because, if I do, I may say something I\u2019m going to regret,\u201d\u2014that\u2019s fine. I have to stop long enough to make certain that what I do builds her up rather than tears her down. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Okay; so, tell me about yesterday. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>This is why I say, \u201cI\u2019m a <em>recovering<\/em> controlling husband.\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right; we\u2019ve got you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Okay. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>A little reality here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Alright; fair. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>What happened?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Travel is always stressful. It started from getting up early in the morning\u2014not necessarily having enough sleep. As I mentioned earlier, don\u2019t have arguments\u2014don\u2019t have them when you don\u2019t have enough sleep. You get a little less sleep before an early morning flight. Things happen on airlines\u2014airlines don\u2019t always run on time. Then, you have a situation where, for whatever reason, you\u2019re realizing you are more and more tense, and more and more worried, and you are concerned. You\u2019re thinking about: \u201cWhat if this\u2026? What if this\u2026? What if this\u2026?\u201d\u00a0 And she\u2019s been with me the entire time, living through that experience. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want your listeners to understand\u2014this is not some process, where you just suddenly go through and \u201cHey, everything is cool now.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>This is a minute-by-minute, day-by-day commitment to place the values and the welfare of your spouse above your own. That\u2019s why I talk so much, in the book, about selflessness\u2014that concept of thinking of the other before yourself. To me, that is <em>such<\/em> a key. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, I have to believe that, while this was happening, Jan was practicing something you\u2019ve written about in your book\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Okay. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014that you have to share with our listeners; because I think this has great takeaway value here. It\u2019s your three rules of engagement. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>You\u2019ve heard about telling kids to take time-outs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes; for toddlers. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Well, and also, for controlling husbands. [Laughter]\u00a0 So, you have to accept the fact that there are times\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>[Laughter] This is what I loved about it\u2014it\u2019s like: \u201cOh, yes!\u00a0 Absolutely!\u00a0 This is going to be practical for folks.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Wait! You\u2019re saying a wife ought to say to her husband, \u201cYou need a time-out.\u201d Is that what you are saying?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Well, I\u2019m saying you have to find a way to disengage. You\u2019ve been down the path before\u2014we talked about Niagara Falls. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>You <em>know<\/em> what\u2019s coming. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes; \u201cBeen around this corner.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Why on earth would you go over it again in the barrel?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, let me just ask: \u201cIn the middle of this time-out\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014\u201c\u2019Take a time-out here for a second,\u2019\u2014Jan, when all of this pressure was building, could you tell, \u2018We\u2019re getting near the edge of Niagara Falls\u2019?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>Oh, yes; it started with realizing we should have gotten up half an hour earlier. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Jan: <\/strong>And through the whole drive\u2014we\u2019re driving\u2014he is saying that\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>He\u2019s intense\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>\u2014repeatedly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u201cWe should have gotten up early.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>Finally, I just said: \u201cBabe, we didn\u2019t. There is just <em>nothing<\/em> you can do about it.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So, tell the truth. Did you tell him to go sit in the restroom\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014he needs a time-out right now. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014in the airplane?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>We didn\u2019t have time for the time-out. [Laughter]\u00a0 We wouldn\u2019t make the flight! [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, Ron, what\u2019s the second rule of engagement here?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>One of the things you need to do is to make sure that time-out happens, whether the other person wants it or not. For instance, I would have had to listen to her yesterday if she said it. There were two or three times when she, in her kind way, made it clear to me: \u201cYou have complained enough. That\u2019s\u2026.\u201d \/ in essence, \u201cI\u2019m done.\u201d\u00a0 That\u2019s something she never would have had the voice to do before. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn order to do that, you have to be able to trust the other person when they say: \u201cWe\u2019re going down the wrong path. We need to stop.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, step one is: \u201cIdentify that you\u2019re on the wrong path.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Ron: <\/strong>Step two is: \u201cTake a time-out and get out of it.\u201d And step three is: \u201cYou don\u2019t just leave it there.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA lot of wives tell me: \u201cThat\u2019s fine. We can\u2014but we never get back to it.\u201d\u00a0 So, when you take the time-out, you sit back and say, \u201cWhen do we think we can deal with this?\u201d\u00a0 But you don\u2019t <em>assume<\/em> that you\u2019re going to <em>have<\/em> to deal with everything when you\u2019re in the middle of Niagara Falls. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, by the time you were airborne and at 30,000 feet, was that the time for her to say, \u201cYou know the way this went back in the car...\u201d?\u00a0 Did you have that conversation?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>Oh, pretty much. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Ron: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And when she says to you, \u201cYou know, babe, you were a little over the edge there,\u201d you can hear that today without going\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes; good for you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cYou just be quiet.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>Exactly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Good for you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Not only that\u2014but I can <em>see<\/em> that it\u2019s going to be what she has to say because I already understand\u2014because I can see what I\u2019ve done. If I\u2019m really fortunate, in the middle of the process, we\u2019ve found a way out of that already. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>There are those listening right now who may have some friends\u2014maybe, it\u2019s their brother \/ their sister who is in a marriage, where the husband is a controlling husband. Maybe, it\u2019s their adult child \/ their daughter who is in a marriage where the husband is controlling. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>What can they do?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>I think that anyone, who is a friend or a relative of someone who sees this happening, can do one of two things: You can talk to the couple together, or you can talk to the individual parties separately. And you have to, I think, decide which seems to be the way people listen best. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere are times when a family member may talk to the couple together, and there is too much defensiveness on each part\u2014they are not able to work together that way. There are other times when that works better, because they support what the other person has to say\u2014it\u2019s kind of a triangulation deal: \u201cWell, yes; she\u2019s saying this,\u201d\u2014he\u2019s trying to tell her\u2014\u201cand she\u2019s\u2026\u201d\u00a0 \u201cWait a second! If you\u2019re not controlling, why did you just interrupt her?\u201d\u2014right?\u00a0 So, there is that process. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s, by the way, the reason I think counseling works well; because you have a third party that interprets and says, \u201cYes; that\u2019s really what\u2019s happening here.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>The other thing that they could try to do is say\u2014and this is difficult\u2014and wives, sometimes, in counseling situations, have gotten frustrated with me for saying: \u201cThere is a two-way road going on here. You can take action \/ set boundaries.\u201d\u00a0 Sometimes, if a mother and father, for instance, see this happening in their children, the mom could talk with the daughter \/ the father-in-law could talk with the son and say: \u201cI would like you to tell me how what happened at dinner the other night shows honor and respect for your wife,\u201d\u2014not condemning \/ not criticizing\u2014but saying, \u201cHelp me understand how this works because I don\u2019t quite see that. Can you help me?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere was a show, a long time ago, called <em>Columbo<\/em>\u2014I\u2019m dating myself a little bit. Columbo would kind of answer questions by saying: \u201cWell, I\u2019m kind of confused. I\u2019m not sure I understand what\u2019s going on.\u201d\u00a0 He\u2019d be walking out of the room; and he\u2019d say, \u201cI\u2019ve got <em>one<\/em> more question\u2026.\u201d\u00a0 [Laughter]\u00a0 And then, he\u2019d solve the murder in front of everybody; right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Ron: <\/strong>Well, that\u2019s a <em>great<\/em> technique for family members to use with a controlling husband. It just kind of puts the person at ease a bit. They can say: \u201cWow! I don\u2019t know. I don\u2019t think I can explain it. Maybe, I need some help.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You indicated earlier that the \u201cAha!\u201d moment for you was\u2014not when you looked in a mirror and saw yourself\u2014but you looked at your sons and saw how they were treating their mother. You saw yourself in your sons. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Undoubtedly, in the years that have transpired, you\u2019ve done some training work with your sons. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Comment on how you would coach a husband and a wife who, perhaps, have allowed this to go on too long\u2014the kids have picked up on it, and they are replicating it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>I had a series of conversations with both my sons. I started by saying: \u201cI need to ask you for forgiveness, because the way I\u2019ve shown you how to be a husband and how to be a father has not been very good. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cI need to show you that I need your help to repent and to be a better dad and to be a better husband. I need you to be able to see that what I was\u2014through God\u2019s grace\u2014is not who I am and that you don\u2019t have to repeat those patterns.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat came from a point in my heart where I believe they could see the sincerity and they could understand that I was telling them: \u201cI <em>know<\/em> what this has done to you. I <em>know<\/em> the way I have controlled my wife is how I\u2019ve controlled you. I need to start over and find a way for God to build us up and help me be a better dad and a better husband.\u201d\u00a0 <br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I think that\u2019s great advice as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI really appreciate both of you, Jan and Ron, for sharing your story with our listeners. Unfortunately, there really is one more question that I have for you before we\u2019re done, here on the broadcast. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay; let me jump in before you ask the question, though, because a couple of things we need to take care of. The first is to let folks know how they can get a copy of Ron\u2019s book, <em>The Controlling Husband<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have it in our FamilyLife Resource Center. You can go, online, to FamilyLifeToday.com to order your copy; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. So, again, order <em>The Controlling Husband<\/em> book, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order at 1-800-FL-TODAY. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, the other thing is\u2014we just want to say a word of thanks to the folks who support <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. This ministry couldn\u2019t happen without our monthly Legacy Partners and those who, from time to time, will get in touch with us and say: \u201cWhat you are doing really does matter. These kinds of programs need to be heard by more people.\u201d Every time you make a donation, you make it possible for more people to hear this program more often. You also make it possible for our website to grow and expand and for us to be reaching more people with practical biblical help and hope for your marriage and your family. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, if you can help with a donation today, go to FamilyLifeToday.com. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can give online; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY and make a donation over the phone; or mail your donation to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis\u2014\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, it has been really raw at points \/ honest, certainly, as you guys have shared your journey. I think you\u2019ve brought a lot of hope to a lot of couples. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt occurred to me, Ron\u2014over the years\u2014you don\u2019t know this about <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>\u2014but I\u2019ve concluded a few broadcasts, over the years, where I have allowed the guest on the program to give a tribute to their mom or dad\u2014perhaps, a parent who is gone \/ perhaps, a parent who is still alive. It occurred to me that your wife\u2019s patience with you has not gone unnoticed by you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And I thought\u2014you know, with just a few hundred thousand people \/ of your closest friends listening on, across the country\u2014I just was wondering, \u201cWould you like to give a tribute to Jan\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>I would love to. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cas we close the broadcast?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ron: <\/strong>[Emotion in voice] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank you for being the kind of person that can show me God\u2019s love and God\u2019s acceptance through the way you\u2019ve treated me in our marriage. I want to thank you for being able to forgive me, and I want to thank you for showing me the path to become the kind of person that you believed I was capable of being. I love you, and I am so thankful you are my wife. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jan: <\/strong>And I love you too, Babe. Thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/304450","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=304450"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=304450"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=304450"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=304450"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=304450"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=304450"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=304450"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}