{"id":304346,"date":"2017-01-19T12:00:00","date_gmt":"2017-01-19T17:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/getting-to-the-other-side\/"},"modified":"2017-01-19T12:00:00","modified_gmt":"2017-01-19T17:00:00","slug":"getting-to-the-other-side","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/getting-to-the-other-side\/","title":{"rendered":"Getting to the Other Side"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>With their marriage problems seemingly irreparable, LeRoy Wagner decided to step down from his pastorate. Kim Wagner retreated to a cabin, where God dealt with her attitude.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2017-01-19.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"25.87M","filesize_raw":"27123603","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2902,2863,2831],"tags":[6177,6183,6184,6182,4254],"podcast_series":[8187],"cwp_profile":[3400,9442],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-304346","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-resolving-conflict","category-saving-a-marriage","category-wives","tag-isolation-in-marriage","tag-marriage-is-over","tag-miracle-from-god","tag-through-the-valley","tag-titus-2","podcast_series-men-who-love-fierce-women","cwp_profile-kimberly-wagner","cwp_profile-leroy-wagner","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/304346\/getting-to-the-other-side","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/304346\/getting-to-the-other-side","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"KVbQwRBk89\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/getting-to-the-other-side\/\">Getting to the Other Side<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/getting-to-the-other-side\/embed\/#?secret=KVbQwRBk89\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Getting to the Other Side&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"KVbQwRBk89\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2017-01-19.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2017-01-19.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> For a decade, Kim and LeRoy Wagner lived in isolation in their marriage. LeRoy was a pastor; Kim was a pastor\u2019s wife. No one knew that, behind closed doors, the two were roommates, not a married couple. That began to change when Kim had a personal retreat and spent time alone with God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> God so broke me. I wrote out on a legal pad, for days, specific ways that God showed me that I had sinned against my husband\u2014that I had been that ugly, fierce woman\u2014that I had demeaned him \/ emasculated him. I called LeRoy. He came out to the cabin, and I let him read through all of that. There was no <em>emotion<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>I was done. I didn\u2019t want to get hope and have it be dashed again. I didn\u2019t want to put any investment of emotions or myself into it. I was glad that the Lord was speaking to her\u2014and I still had a respect for that and a sympathy for that\u2014but as far as becoming emotionally reinvested, I had absolutely no desire, at that point, to do it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, January 19<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey. I'm Bob Lepine. What do you do in a marriage when one spouse wants to reconcile and try to put together the broken pieces of a marriage and the other spouse simply says, \u201cNo thanks\u201d? We\u2019ll hear from Kim and LeRoy Wagner today\u2014hear their story. Stay with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. You\u2019ve heard me talk about what I think was really the darkest season in our marriage\u2014when we had moved to Phoenix and Mary Ann wasn\u2019t happy. It was a pretty sober time when I was not sure how to get out of the ditch that we were in. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m just trying to think of what I know about you and Barbara. I\u2019m just wondering about your darkest time\u2014where would you say it was?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I would say it would have been at the halfway mark, somewhere around year 20. I don\u2019t remember all the details of everything we went through, but it was a recalibration point. I never really thought of it being so dark that we ever considered anything other than a commitment to one another; but nonetheless, it was a time where we had to take a step back and do some serious investing in our marriage and in how we were relating to each other.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo here you are\u2014you\u2019ve got somebody, who\u2019s leading in a marriage and family ministry, and this would have been right around the time before we started <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> She went through a dark time \/ I went through a dark time. But we went through it together; and, fortunately, God led us through to the other side.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m thinking about the couples we meet regularly at our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage getaways. Most of them tell us that their marriage is in a good place, and they\u2019ve come to the weekend because they want to make sure their marriage continues to be in a good place\u2014they\u2019re doing preventive maintenance on their marriage. But we do meet couples at every getaway who are there because they\u2019ve lost hope. They\u2019re like the couple we\u2019re going to talk to today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI just quickly want to remind our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>listeners that\u2014if you\u2019d like to attend an upcoming <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway this spring, and you\u2019d like to take advantage of a special offer we\u2019re making, where you pay the regular rate for yourself and your spouse comes free\u2014that offer is good through this weekend. If you want to take advantage of it, you need to get in touch with us right now, either online at FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. If you\u2019ve got any questions, we can answer those for you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe can sign you up on the phone, or you can sign up online. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. No matter what shape your marriage is in, getting away together and spending a weekend focusing on your marriage will be good for you. If you\u2019ve lost hope, trust me\u2014I\u2019ve talked to too many\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0couples, who come away from the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>, not just with a fresh sense of hope, but with some practical tools they can use to help their marriage get better. So, again, if you have questions or if you\u2019d like to register, call 1-800-FL-TODAY or go, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re going to talk to a couple today who experienced a dark season in their marriage. They\u2019ve actually written about it in a book they\u2019ve written together called <em>Men Who Love Fierce Women<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> LeRoy and Kim Wagner join us again on <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>LeRoy\/Kim, welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Thank you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> Good to be back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> LeRoy had been a pastor until their marriage hit a wall. Finally, we heard earlier, how you hit such a wall\u2014and there was so much hopelessness in your marriage between you two\u2014you stepped out of what you\u2019d trained your life to become\u2014a pastor. You began driving a truck. That <em>had<\/em> to create bitterness in you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> It was a pretty low time, looking back at it. I had surrendered to preach, as a young man\u201413 years of age. I had started pastoring when I was 18. I knew nothing but serving the Lord; and yet, we\u2019d come to this point where our marriage seemed like it was irreparable. On our own, it certainly was. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt seemed like God was not answering. I could not continue, with a good conscience and with sincerity, to do that which I knew God had called me to do and I had surrendered my life to do. It was a point of crisis of faith for me and a pretty low time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Kim, how were you feeling about this? I mean\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Oh, I hated it!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You know your man, and it\u2019s the conflict between you two that\u2019s causing him to step out of something that you knew\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Now, he didn\u2019t voice that\u2014he didn\u2019t say it was because of the marriage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Oh, he didn\u2019t?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> But I had watched him be this on-fire, passionate, happy man\u2014a great preacher\/communicator of the Word\u2014and I watched him just go further, and further, and deeper into this cave. Now, he did not communicate it was because of the marriage\u2014it was just that he was so depressed, which was part of what was happening because of the marriage. He just reached a point that he said, \u201cI can no longer pastor with integrity.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You thought he was stepping out of the pastorate because he was depressed.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But you didn\u2019t connect: \u201cHe\u2019s depressed because our marriage is in the condition it\u2019s in,\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> No; not at that time at all.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014or \u201cHe\u2019s depressed because I\u2019m a fierce woman, and I\u2019ve chased him back into the cave.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Not at all. I said: \u201cHe\u2019s the problem. He needs to be a man.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> LeRoy, did anybody around you know what was going on in your soul?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> No; I don\u2019t think so. I mean, I think that\u2019s one of the problems with people who are trapped in marriages like this\u2014and the fearful man\/fierce woman syndrome that we try to identify\u2014a lot of times it happens in Christian marriages, even in ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> It\u2019s surprisingly common. You feel ashamed and embarrassed. I didn\u2019t have a close friendship with anyone, at that time\u2014that I felt comfortable to be able to\u2014I was extremely embarrassed by it also.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Here\u2019s my other question: \u201cIf I had come to you, at that point, and said, \u2018What\u2019s the problem in you or in your marriage?\u2019 what would you have told me?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> I\u2019d have said: \u201cI have absolutely no idea. I love the Lord, I believe His Word, and I\u2019m trying to do what\u2019s right. I cannot be what I need to be for the woman that God has given me. He has put us together. I\u2019m at a complete <em>loss<\/em> as to what to do,\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014so much so, I\u2019m ashamed to say, I despaired for my life at points.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Suicidal?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> What was it about Kim that made you fearful of her? Was it that she just kept coming \/ she kept coming? I mean, what was it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> Well, relentless, as you were saying there. She had intensity and a ferocity that I could not match. At my best moment, there was no way that I could match that. Of course, the deeper that I would sink into my own selfish self-pity and victimization mentality, the harder she would try to drag me out of it. I could not come to the place where I could see that I was the problem. I thought that <em>she<\/em> was the problem; and, of course, she was thinking the same thing. I think there are a lot of listeners out there who are in that same ditch.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, Kim, as you watched him retreat to his cave\u2014as you pursued him into the cave over, and over, and over again\u2014did you lose your respect for him,\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Oh, yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014as your husband?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Oh, absolutely!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> How did that show up?\u2014how was that demonstrated, practically-speaking?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> It could be demonstrated as simply as a look\u2014a raised eyebrow \/ a sneer\u2014the tone of my voice. I\u2019m very ashamed to look back and think of how I was then, but he literally repulsed me. I did not care to be in the same room with him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen we went to visit with the pastor, who was kind of counseling us, he looked at me and he said, \u201cIf there was one thing\u2014just one thing\u2014you would want your husband to do for you\u2014you would want LeRoy to do\u2014what would that one thing be?\u201d I looked at him and I said: \u201cI just want him to pray with me.\u201d When he was pastoring, I had seen him pray with people at church. \u201cI know that he is a man of God; and yet, he won\u2019t pray with me.\u201d The counselor was shocked! He said: \u201cAre you serious? That\u2019s <em>all<\/em> you would ask for?\u201d And I said, \u201cYes.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat is something that, now, we encourage husbands and couples all the time. There is a spiritual dynamic that goes on there that is unexplainable. At this point, where we\u2019ve been the last 20 years, there is not a day that goes by that he doesn\u2019t pray over me and with me specifically. It is such a powerful dynamic in our lives now.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> What caused you to give up on praying with your wife?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019d never really established a pattern of prayer as far as our personal time together. That is where I got off on the wrong foot.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It wasn\u2019t a habit.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> It wasn\u2019t a habit. You know, I did pray with others; and I did think it was very important \/ I prayed on my own. One of the dynamics that was going on, Dennis, was she was <em>always<\/em> in the Bible and in Scripture, teaching: \u201cShe\u2019s way more spiritual than me,\u201d\u2014that was my perception\u2014\u201cI mean, what would I have to give as far as anything spiritually? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cI can\u2019t be the spiritual leader.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, I could go and I could make the decision as far as the church; but even, you know, at times, she would question those. I felt like I couldn\u2019t even do that right\u2014privately. So how could I pray with her if I couldn\u2019t even do the other spiritual\u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You were afraid you\u2019d fail?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> Absolutely!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Just in case women are listening and say: \u201cI don\u2019t ever do that! I don\u2019t tell my husband he\u2019s doing anything wrong!\u201d I didn\u2019t either; <em>but<\/em> the way I conveyed my thoughts or questioning him on things communicated to him, \u201cI can do nothing right.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> You know, the way I challenged him: \u201cWell, why did you do it that way?\u201d or \u201cWhy did you make this decision?\u201d or whatever it may be. It wasn\u2019t, \u201cWell, you can\u2019t do anything right!\u201d I don\u2019t want wives, listening, thinking: \u201cThat\u2019s not applying to me. I never do that to my husband.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLet me just read a verse here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m sorry; this is sounding chauvinistic, as a husband, to read a verse to the wives\u2014but I\u2019ve got the first part of the passage for the husbands\u2014\u201cHowever, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.\u201d The husband is commanded to love. That means he\u2019s to nourish, and cherish, and find out what would communicate to her that she was being cultivated to grow spiritually.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Nourished and cherished; yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That\u2019s what the word, \u201cnourish,\u201d means.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And cherish means value.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, Kim, what would cause you to feel nourished\u2014to grow spiritually\u2014and cherished? And you\u2019ve already answered the question\u2014\u201cFor my husband to pray with me.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor the wives, and for you, Kim, the second half of the passage says, \u201cAnd let the wife see that she respects her husband.\u201d Here\u2019s the assignment for every wife listening: \u201cIf a man\u2019s assignment is to find out what would nourish and cherish his wife\u2019s soul,\u201d the wife\u2019s assignment is to find out: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0\u201cWhat communicates respect to you, as my husband? What can I do; what can I say; what attitude can I express that builds you up rather than tears you down?\u201d You\u2019re exactly right; you don\u2019t have to use words to tear down your man.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> <em>Looks<\/em> can be as much as 90 percent of all communication.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So I want to know: \u201cWhat was the turning point?\u201d and \u201cDid you initiate the turn? Did your wife initiate the turn? Where did your marriage start to find its way out of the cave that you were in?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> Well, God is always the initiator. Even though we were crying out\u2014both of us, individually\u2014God also is sovereign and His timing is perfect. I just want to say to anyone, who is listening: \u201cYou may be in the darkest, most miserable moments of your life; but God is at work <em>even<\/em> in your misery.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe didn\u2019t know that!\u2014had no way of knowing that! Couldn\u2019t have believed it if someone had told us, but God had to do His perfect work of allowing us to get to the bottom. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI thought it was: \u201cThis marriage is killing me. It\u2019s the end of me. It is just horrible!\u201d Well, that\u2019s what God wanted\u2014He wanted the \u201cend of me,\u201d \/ He wanted the dying to self. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tActually, God started His initial work of rescue with Kim.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> I went away to a cabin. I was done, in some sense\u2014not that I was going to divorce\u2014but it was like: \u201cGod, we cannot go on like this anymore! We just cannot go on like this!\u201d I had my Bible there. I pulled out of my Bible\u2014didn\u2019t even know it was in the Bible cover\u2014this little booklet that had just been put out by Nancy Leigh DeMoss [Wolgemuth]\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> \u2014 called <em>Biblical Portrait of Womanhood. <\/em>It\u2019s a little bitty booklet that has diagnostic questions and Scriptures.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI started working my way through that and going through the Scriptures. When I got to the Titus 2 passage, which is, you know, the biblical womanhood passage\u2014that \u201cThe older women are to train the younger women to love their husbands,\u201d\u2014they have to be <em>trained<\/em> to love their husbands\u2014\u201cto love their children, to be pure, to be workers at home\u2026\u201d\u2014all of this list that\u2019s there in verses 3-5. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I got to the end of that\u2014the last phrase said, \u201c\u2026so that the Word of God will not be blasphemed.\u201d The Holy Spirit graciously connected all of the dots to me suddenly. I <em>knew<\/em> I loved God \/ I loved His Word! I was not displaying the power of the gospel \/ the power of that Word to others in how I was treating my husband! I was placing all the blame on him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was grabbing at him to try to get love, and acceptance, and validation rather than just loving him and laying it down there. Instead of looking to him to fulfill me, I was to be laying down my life to love him \u201cso that the word of God\u201d would be glorified. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI went to my face! God so broke me. I cried; and I wrote out on a legal pad, for days, specific ways that God showed me that I had sinned against my husband\u2014that I had been that ugly, fierce woman\u2014that I had demeaned him \/ emasculated him. I wrote it all out on this legal pad, [emotion in voice] and then I knew I had to confess that to my husband and ask his forgiveness. I was fearful to do that! I thought, \u201cOkay; now I\u2019m going to let him know that all of these years of misery are <em>my<\/em> fault.\u201d I struggled through a night with the Lord. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGod let me know that I had to obey Him in this. I called LeRoy. He came out to the cabin; and I let him read through all of that, and there was <em>no emotion<\/em>. It\u2019s like he was so far gone, Bob\u2014that I couldn\u2019t reach him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> When you read that, was your heart\u2014from a standpoint of being hooked up to a cardiac machine?\u2014was there no heartbeat?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> No beat at all. I\u2019d been anticipating, at different points, and thinking, you know, that things would change. It had gone so long.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> How long is \u201cso long\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> Well, this was 12 years into our marriage. I was done. I didn\u2019t want to get hope and have it be dashed again. I didn\u2019t have a high emotional capacity to begin with. I was just done\u2014I didn\u2019t want to put any investment of emotions or myself into it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was glad that the Lord was speaking to her\u2014and I still had a respect for that and a sympathy for that\u2014but as far as becoming emotionally reinvested, I had absolutely no desire, at that point, to do it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Because you knew where that would lead. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> In your own mind\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> Yes; \u201cThey would just be dashed again.\u201d Absolutely! \u201cI do not want to go down that road again!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, Kim, what did you do?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> I knew I had to confess to our children, as well; because I had not respected their dad, as a man, and demonstrated that in front of them. I gathered them\u2014and LeRoy\u2014in the living room. I confessed all of that and asked their forgiveness. God did a true, life-changing work in my heart that day to give me a greater understanding of what submission really means\u2014the surrender of the will to Christ\u2014that sense of \u201cHowever I relate to my husband is connected to glorifying God.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> What would you say to the woman, who has heard you share all of this\u2014and they\u2019ve heard you speak tenderly about being convicted that you, somehow, are being a reproach against the name of Christ\u2014the woman\u2019s listening and going, \u201cI don\u2019t get that.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> I would say: \u201cIf you\u2019ve ever gone to the cross to watch what Christ has done for you\u2014how He has poured out His lifeblood for you to rescue you\u2014how can you do anything but live for Him? Living for Him is connected to how you demonstrate love to others\u2014primarily, and first of all\u2014to your husband, to your children, and to your family members. That\u2019s where it starts.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> The display of the gospel is, first and foremost, through marriage. It\u2019s <em>all<\/em> about marriage. God used that symbolism from the very beginning to show us what His rescue looks like\u2014what His redemption \/ what His relationship with us looks like.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, when did the first blip of a heartbeat show up in your heart?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> Well, it was about two years of watching an obvious change. It was evident that God had done a work in her heart.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So it was not within days?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> No; it was not. So I want to give encouragement to anyone who might be going through this process\u2014that if you have any kind of expectation of God working on your mate in any timetable, or you expect because you\u2019ve done something\u2014let that go. Let God have His ability to work.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It may be months \/ it may be <em>years<\/em> before a breakthrough happens\u2014if it\u2019s going to happen at all.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> But you need to be responsible to be obedient to God and be obedient to Scripture; and then, let God do the work in your mate.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Putting it another way: \u201cIf the ditch you\u2019re in is one you\u2019ve been digging for 12 years, you can\u2019t expect to flip a switch and hop out of the ditch in 24 hours, or a week, or a month.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> That\u2019s right; absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It takes a while to rebuild trust and to build the relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> There are two words\u2014help and hope\u2014that we talk about often. When couples come to a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway, often, they come in that state where they\u2019re hopeless\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and they say, \u201cWe\u2019ve done everything we know how to do.\u201d What they\u2019ve said to us, most often at the end of the weekend, is: \u201cWe\u2019re leaving here with hope. The hope comes because we have some fresh things that we now know how to do that we didn\u2019t know how to do before.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cWe\u2019ve gotten help we need \/ we\u2019ve got the tools we need. This can be a turning point for our relationship.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> There are three different groups of couples who come to the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>. There are those who we\u2019ve been talking about here\u2014who are in a deep ditch\u2014but then, there is the vast majority, who come to the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway, who have a good marriage\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and they just need a tune-up. They just need to invest in their marriage to avoid getting into a situation like we\u2019re talking about here. If you think you\u2019re beyond that, you\u2019re mistaken; because you you\u2019re just a step or two away from beginning to slide into isolation\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014away from God \/ away from each other. Your marriage could be in trouble. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen the third group is engaged couples, or those contemplating engagement, to establish the right habits and patterns, spiritually, in your marriage\u2014like you just mentioned\u2014praying together, as a couple.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We talked earlier about the fact that this weekend is the wrap-up for a special offer we\u2019ve been making to <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>listeners. If you\u2019d like to attend one of these upcoming getaways, we start the spring season here in a few weeks. It goes through the middle of June. You can go, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to register. If you pay the regular rate for yourself, your spouse comes free. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re hoping <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>listeners will take advantage of this special offer\u2014it\u2019s the best offer we make all year long. It\u2019s your opportunity to attend an upcoming <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway and save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRegister, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to register. Then join us at a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway. I\u2019m going to be speaking in Branson in the first part of April. I hope some of our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>listeners will come join me in the Ozarks for a great weekend getaway.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLet me also mention the book we\u2019ve been talking about today\u2014that LeRoy and Kim Wagner have written\u2014called <em>Men Who Love Fierce Women. <\/em>It\u2019s a follow-up to Kim\u2019s book, <em>Fierce Women<\/em>, where she talked about her own journey. This is LeRoy stepping in to talk about what it\u2019s like to be married to a woman who is a fierce woman, and how a man can resist passivity and engage with his wife and be the spiritual leader in his home, even when he\u2019s married to a strong, fierce woman. You can get copies of either book in our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>Resource Center. Shop, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order at 1-800-FL-TODAY\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u20141-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, Kim and LeRoy Wagner are going to be back with us. We\u2019re going to hear their advice to husbands and wives\u2014wives who are fierce women and husbands who are married to them\u2014what counsel do they have? We\u2019ll hear from them tomorrow. I hope you can be with us for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["25.87M"],"filesize_raw":["27123603"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-304346.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-304346.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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their marriage problems seemingly irreparable, LeRoy Wagner decided to step down from his pastorate. Kim Wagner retreated to a cabin, where God dealt with her attitude.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2017-01-19.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> For a decade, Kim and LeRoy Wagner lived in isolation in their marriage. LeRoy was a pastor; Kim was a pastor\u2019s wife. No one knew that, behind closed doors, the two were roommates, not a married couple. That began to change when Kim had a personal retreat and spent time alone with God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> God so broke me. I wrote out on a legal pad, for days, specific ways that God showed me that I had sinned against my husband\u2014that I had been that ugly, fierce woman\u2014that I had demeaned him \/ emasculated him. I called LeRoy. He came out to the cabin, and I let him read through all of that. There was no <em>emotion<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>I was done. I didn\u2019t want to get hope and have it be dashed again. I didn\u2019t want to put any investment of emotions or myself into it. I was glad that the Lord was speaking to her\u2014and I still had a respect for that and a sympathy for that\u2014but as far as becoming emotionally reinvested, I had absolutely no desire, at that point, to do it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, January 19<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey. I'm Bob Lepine. What do you do in a marriage when one spouse wants to reconcile and try to put together the broken pieces of a marriage and the other spouse simply says, \u201cNo thanks\u201d? We\u2019ll hear from Kim and LeRoy Wagner today\u2014hear their story. Stay with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. You\u2019ve heard me talk about what I think was really the darkest season in our marriage\u2014when we had moved to Phoenix and Mary Ann wasn\u2019t happy. It was a pretty sober time when I was not sure how to get out of the ditch that we were in. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m just trying to think of what I know about you and Barbara. I\u2019m just wondering about your darkest time\u2014where would you say it was?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I would say it would have been at the halfway mark, somewhere around year 20. I don\u2019t remember all the details of everything we went through, but it was a recalibration point. I never really thought of it being so dark that we ever considered anything other than a commitment to one another; but nonetheless, it was a time where we had to take a step back and do some serious investing in our marriage and in how we were relating to each other.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo here you are\u2014you\u2019ve got somebody, who\u2019s leading in a marriage and family ministry, and this would have been right around the time before we started <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> She went through a dark time \/ I went through a dark time. But we went through it together; and, fortunately, God led us through to the other side.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m thinking about the couples we meet regularly at our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage getaways. Most of them tell us that their marriage is in a good place, and they\u2019ve come to the weekend because they want to make sure their marriage continues to be in a good place\u2014they\u2019re doing preventive maintenance on their marriage. But we do meet couples at every getaway who are there because they\u2019ve lost hope. They\u2019re like the couple we\u2019re going to talk to today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI just quickly want to remind our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>listeners that\u2014if you\u2019d like to attend an upcoming <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway this spring, and you\u2019d like to take advantage of a special offer we\u2019re making, where you pay the regular rate for yourself and your spouse comes free\u2014that offer is good through this weekend. If you want to take advantage of it, you need to get in touch with us right now, either online at FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. If you\u2019ve got any questions, we can answer those for you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe can sign you up on the phone, or you can sign up online. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. No matter what shape your marriage is in, getting away together and spending a weekend focusing on your marriage will be good for you. If you\u2019ve lost hope, trust me\u2014I\u2019ve talked to too many\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0couples, who come away from the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>, not just with a fresh sense of hope, but with some practical tools they can use to help their marriage get better. So, again, if you have questions or if you\u2019d like to register, call 1-800-FL-TODAY or go, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re going to talk to a couple today who experienced a dark season in their marriage. They\u2019ve actually written about it in a book they\u2019ve written together called <em>Men Who Love Fierce Women<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> LeRoy and Kim Wagner join us again on <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>LeRoy\/Kim, welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Thank you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> Good to be back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> LeRoy had been a pastor until their marriage hit a wall. Finally, we heard earlier, how you hit such a wall\u2014and there was so much hopelessness in your marriage between you two\u2014you stepped out of what you\u2019d trained your life to become\u2014a pastor. You began driving a truck. That <em>had<\/em> to create bitterness in you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> It was a pretty low time, looking back at it. I had surrendered to preach, as a young man\u201413 years of age. I had started pastoring when I was 18. I knew nothing but serving the Lord; and yet, we\u2019d come to this point where our marriage seemed like it was irreparable. On our own, it certainly was. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt seemed like God was not answering. I could not continue, with a good conscience and with sincerity, to do that which I knew God had called me to do and I had surrendered my life to do. It was a point of crisis of faith for me and a pretty low time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Kim, how were you feeling about this? I mean\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Oh, I hated it!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You know your man, and it\u2019s the conflict between you two that\u2019s causing him to step out of something that you knew\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Now, he didn\u2019t voice that\u2014he didn\u2019t say it was because of the marriage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Oh, he didn\u2019t?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> But I had watched him be this on-fire, passionate, happy man\u2014a great preacher\/communicator of the Word\u2014and I watched him just go further, and further, and deeper into this cave. Now, he did not communicate it was because of the marriage\u2014it was just that he was so depressed, which was part of what was happening because of the marriage. He just reached a point that he said, \u201cI can no longer pastor with integrity.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You thought he was stepping out of the pastorate because he was depressed.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But you didn\u2019t connect: \u201cHe\u2019s depressed because our marriage is in the condition it\u2019s in,\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> No; not at that time at all.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014or \u201cHe\u2019s depressed because I\u2019m a fierce woman, and I\u2019ve chased him back into the cave.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Not at all. I said: \u201cHe\u2019s the problem. He needs to be a man.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> LeRoy, did anybody around you know what was going on in your soul?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> No; I don\u2019t think so. I mean, I think that\u2019s one of the problems with people who are trapped in marriages like this\u2014and the fearful man\/fierce woman syndrome that we try to identify\u2014a lot of times it happens in Christian marriages, even in ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> It\u2019s surprisingly common. You feel ashamed and embarrassed. I didn\u2019t have a close friendship with anyone, at that time\u2014that I felt comfortable to be able to\u2014I was extremely embarrassed by it also.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Here\u2019s my other question: \u201cIf I had come to you, at that point, and said, \u2018What\u2019s the problem in you or in your marriage?\u2019 what would you have told me?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> I\u2019d have said: \u201cI have absolutely no idea. I love the Lord, I believe His Word, and I\u2019m trying to do what\u2019s right. I cannot be what I need to be for the woman that God has given me. He has put us together. I\u2019m at a complete <em>loss<\/em> as to what to do,\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014so much so, I\u2019m ashamed to say, I despaired for my life at points.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Suicidal?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> What was it about Kim that made you fearful of her? Was it that she just kept coming \/ she kept coming? I mean, what was it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> Well, relentless, as you were saying there. She had intensity and a ferocity that I could not match. At my best moment, there was no way that I could match that. Of course, the deeper that I would sink into my own selfish self-pity and victimization mentality, the harder she would try to drag me out of it. I could not come to the place where I could see that I was the problem. I thought that <em>she<\/em> was the problem; and, of course, she was thinking the same thing. I think there are a lot of listeners out there who are in that same ditch.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, Kim, as you watched him retreat to his cave\u2014as you pursued him into the cave over, and over, and over again\u2014did you lose your respect for him,\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Oh, yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014as your husband?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Oh, absolutely!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> How did that show up?\u2014how was that demonstrated, practically-speaking?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> It could be demonstrated as simply as a look\u2014a raised eyebrow \/ a sneer\u2014the tone of my voice. I\u2019m very ashamed to look back and think of how I was then, but he literally repulsed me. I did not care to be in the same room with him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen we went to visit with the pastor, who was kind of counseling us, he looked at me and he said, \u201cIf there was one thing\u2014just one thing\u2014you would want your husband to do for you\u2014you would want LeRoy to do\u2014what would that one thing be?\u201d I looked at him and I said: \u201cI just want him to pray with me.\u201d When he was pastoring, I had seen him pray with people at church. \u201cI know that he is a man of God; and yet, he won\u2019t pray with me.\u201d The counselor was shocked! He said: \u201cAre you serious? That\u2019s <em>all<\/em> you would ask for?\u201d And I said, \u201cYes.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat is something that, now, we encourage husbands and couples all the time. There is a spiritual dynamic that goes on there that is unexplainable. At this point, where we\u2019ve been the last 20 years, there is not a day that goes by that he doesn\u2019t pray over me and with me specifically. It is such a powerful dynamic in our lives now.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> What caused you to give up on praying with your wife?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019d never really established a pattern of prayer as far as our personal time together. That is where I got off on the wrong foot.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It wasn\u2019t a habit.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> It wasn\u2019t a habit. You know, I did pray with others; and I did think it was very important \/ I prayed on my own. One of the dynamics that was going on, Dennis, was she was <em>always<\/em> in the Bible and in Scripture, teaching: \u201cShe\u2019s way more spiritual than me,\u201d\u2014that was my perception\u2014\u201cI mean, what would I have to give as far as anything spiritually? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cI can\u2019t be the spiritual leader.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, I could go and I could make the decision as far as the church; but even, you know, at times, she would question those. I felt like I couldn\u2019t even do that right\u2014privately. So how could I pray with her if I couldn\u2019t even do the other spiritual\u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You were afraid you\u2019d fail?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> Absolutely!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Just in case women are listening and say: \u201cI don\u2019t ever do that! I don\u2019t tell my husband he\u2019s doing anything wrong!\u201d I didn\u2019t either; <em>but<\/em> the way I conveyed my thoughts or questioning him on things communicated to him, \u201cI can do nothing right.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> You know, the way I challenged him: \u201cWell, why did you do it that way?\u201d or \u201cWhy did you make this decision?\u201d or whatever it may be. It wasn\u2019t, \u201cWell, you can\u2019t do anything right!\u201d I don\u2019t want wives, listening, thinking: \u201cThat\u2019s not applying to me. I never do that to my husband.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLet me just read a verse here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m sorry; this is sounding chauvinistic, as a husband, to read a verse to the wives\u2014but I\u2019ve got the first part of the passage for the husbands\u2014\u201cHowever, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.\u201d The husband is commanded to love. That means he\u2019s to nourish, and cherish, and find out what would communicate to her that she was being cultivated to grow spiritually.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Nourished and cherished; yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That\u2019s what the word, \u201cnourish,\u201d means.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And cherish means value.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, Kim, what would cause you to feel nourished\u2014to grow spiritually\u2014and cherished? And you\u2019ve already answered the question\u2014\u201cFor my husband to pray with me.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor the wives, and for you, Kim, the second half of the passage says, \u201cAnd let the wife see that she respects her husband.\u201d Here\u2019s the assignment for every wife listening: \u201cIf a man\u2019s assignment is to find out what would nourish and cherish his wife\u2019s soul,\u201d the wife\u2019s assignment is to find out: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0\u201cWhat communicates respect to you, as my husband? What can I do; what can I say; what attitude can I express that builds you up rather than tears you down?\u201d You\u2019re exactly right; you don\u2019t have to use words to tear down your man.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> <em>Looks<\/em> can be as much as 90 percent of all communication.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So I want to know: \u201cWhat was the turning point?\u201d and \u201cDid you initiate the turn? Did your wife initiate the turn? Where did your marriage start to find its way out of the cave that you were in?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> Well, God is always the initiator. Even though we were crying out\u2014both of us, individually\u2014God also is sovereign and His timing is perfect. I just want to say to anyone, who is listening: \u201cYou may be in the darkest, most miserable moments of your life; but God is at work <em>even<\/em> in your misery.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe didn\u2019t know that!\u2014had no way of knowing that! Couldn\u2019t have believed it if someone had told us, but God had to do His perfect work of allowing us to get to the bottom. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI thought it was: \u201cThis marriage is killing me. It\u2019s the end of me. It is just horrible!\u201d Well, that\u2019s what God wanted\u2014He wanted the \u201cend of me,\u201d \/ He wanted the dying to self. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tActually, God started His initial work of rescue with Kim.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> I went away to a cabin. I was done, in some sense\u2014not that I was going to divorce\u2014but it was like: \u201cGod, we cannot go on like this anymore! We just cannot go on like this!\u201d I had my Bible there. I pulled out of my Bible\u2014didn\u2019t even know it was in the Bible cover\u2014this little booklet that had just been put out by Nancy Leigh DeMoss [Wolgemuth]\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> \u2014 called <em>Biblical Portrait of Womanhood. <\/em>It\u2019s a little bitty booklet that has diagnostic questions and Scriptures.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI started working my way through that and going through the Scriptures. When I got to the Titus 2 passage, which is, you know, the biblical womanhood passage\u2014that \u201cThe older women are to train the younger women to love their husbands,\u201d\u2014they have to be <em>trained<\/em> to love their husbands\u2014\u201cto love their children, to be pure, to be workers at home\u2026\u201d\u2014all of this list that\u2019s there in verses 3-5. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I got to the end of that\u2014the last phrase said, \u201c\u2026so that the Word of God will not be blasphemed.\u201d The Holy Spirit graciously connected all of the dots to me suddenly. I <em>knew<\/em> I loved God \/ I loved His Word! I was not displaying the power of the gospel \/ the power of that Word to others in how I was treating my husband! I was placing all the blame on him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was grabbing at him to try to get love, and acceptance, and validation rather than just loving him and laying it down there. Instead of looking to him to fulfill me, I was to be laying down my life to love him \u201cso that the word of God\u201d would be glorified. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI went to my face! God so broke me. I cried; and I wrote out on a legal pad, for days, specific ways that God showed me that I had sinned against my husband\u2014that I had been that ugly, fierce woman\u2014that I had demeaned him \/ emasculated him. I wrote it all out on this legal pad, [emotion in voice] and then I knew I had to confess that to my husband and ask his forgiveness. I was fearful to do that! I thought, \u201cOkay; now I\u2019m going to let him know that all of these years of misery are <em>my<\/em> fault.\u201d I struggled through a night with the Lord. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGod let me know that I had to obey Him in this. I called LeRoy. He came out to the cabin; and I let him read through all of that, and there was <em>no emotion<\/em>. It\u2019s like he was so far gone, Bob\u2014that I couldn\u2019t reach him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> When you read that, was your heart\u2014from a standpoint of being hooked up to a cardiac machine?\u2014was there no heartbeat?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> No beat at all. I\u2019d been anticipating, at different points, and thinking, you know, that things would change. It had gone so long.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> How long is \u201cso long\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> Well, this was 12 years into our marriage. I was done. I didn\u2019t want to get hope and have it be dashed again. I didn\u2019t have a high emotional capacity to begin with. I was just done\u2014I didn\u2019t want to put any investment of emotions or myself into it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was glad that the Lord was speaking to her\u2014and I still had a respect for that and a sympathy for that\u2014but as far as becoming emotionally reinvested, I had absolutely no desire, at that point, to do it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Because you knew where that would lead. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> In your own mind\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> Yes; \u201cThey would just be dashed again.\u201d Absolutely! \u201cI do not want to go down that road again!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, Kim, what did you do?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> I knew I had to confess to our children, as well; because I had not respected their dad, as a man, and demonstrated that in front of them. I gathered them\u2014and LeRoy\u2014in the living room. I confessed all of that and asked their forgiveness. God did a true, life-changing work in my heart that day to give me a greater understanding of what submission really means\u2014the surrender of the will to Christ\u2014that sense of \u201cHowever I relate to my husband is connected to glorifying God.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> What would you say to the woman, who has heard you share all of this\u2014and they\u2019ve heard you speak tenderly about being convicted that you, somehow, are being a reproach against the name of Christ\u2014the woman\u2019s listening and going, \u201cI don\u2019t get that.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> I would say: \u201cIf you\u2019ve ever gone to the cross to watch what Christ has done for you\u2014how He has poured out His lifeblood for you to rescue you\u2014how can you do anything but live for Him? Living for Him is connected to how you demonstrate love to others\u2014primarily, and first of all\u2014to your husband, to your children, and to your family members. That\u2019s where it starts.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> The display of the gospel is, first and foremost, through marriage. It\u2019s <em>all<\/em> about marriage. God used that symbolism from the very beginning to show us what His rescue looks like\u2014what His redemption \/ what His relationship with us looks like.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, when did the first blip of a heartbeat show up in your heart?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> Well, it was about two years of watching an obvious change. It was evident that God had done a work in her heart.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So it was not within days?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> No; it was not. So I want to give encouragement to anyone who might be going through this process\u2014that if you have any kind of expectation of God working on your mate in any timetable, or you expect because you\u2019ve done something\u2014let that go. Let God have His ability to work.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It may be months \/ it may be <em>years<\/em> before a breakthrough happens\u2014if it\u2019s going to happen at all.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> But you need to be responsible to be obedient to God and be obedient to Scripture; and then, let God do the work in your mate.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Putting it another way: \u201cIf the ditch you\u2019re in is one you\u2019ve been digging for 12 years, you can\u2019t expect to flip a switch and hop out of the ditch in 24 hours, or a week, or a month.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy:<\/strong> That\u2019s right; absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It takes a while to rebuild trust and to build the relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> There are two words\u2014help and hope\u2014that we talk about often. When couples come to a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway, often, they come in that state where they\u2019re hopeless\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and they say, \u201cWe\u2019ve done everything we know how to do.\u201d What they\u2019ve said to us, most often at the end of the weekend, is: \u201cWe\u2019re leaving here with hope. The hope comes because we have some fresh things that we now know how to do that we didn\u2019t know how to do before.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cWe\u2019ve gotten help we need \/ we\u2019ve got the tools we need. This can be a turning point for our relationship.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> There are three different groups of couples who come to the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>. There are those who we\u2019ve been talking about here\u2014who are in a deep ditch\u2014but then, there is the vast majority, who come to the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway, who have a good marriage\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and they just need a tune-up. They just need to invest in their marriage to avoid getting into a situation like we\u2019re talking about here. If you think you\u2019re beyond that, you\u2019re mistaken; because you you\u2019re just a step or two away from beginning to slide into isolation\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014away from God \/ away from each other. Your marriage could be in trouble. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen the third group is engaged couples, or those contemplating engagement, to establish the right habits and patterns, spiritually, in your marriage\u2014like you just mentioned\u2014praying together, as a couple.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We talked earlier about the fact that this weekend is the wrap-up for a special offer we\u2019ve been making to <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>listeners. If you\u2019d like to attend one of these upcoming getaways, we start the spring season here in a few weeks. It goes through the middle of June. You can go, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to register. If you pay the regular rate for yourself, your spouse comes free. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re hoping <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>listeners will take advantage of this special offer\u2014it\u2019s the best offer we make all year long. It\u2019s your opportunity to attend an upcoming <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway and save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRegister, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to register. Then join us at a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway. I\u2019m going to be speaking in Branson in the first part of April. I hope some of our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>listeners will come join me in the Ozarks for a great weekend getaway.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLet me also mention the book we\u2019ve been talking about today\u2014that LeRoy and Kim Wagner have written\u2014called <em>Men Who Love Fierce Women. <\/em>It\u2019s a follow-up to Kim\u2019s book, <em>Fierce Women<\/em>, where she talked about her own journey. This is LeRoy stepping in to talk about what it\u2019s like to be married to a woman who is a fierce woman, and how a man can resist passivity and engage with his wife and be the spiritual leader in his home, even when he\u2019s married to a strong, fierce woman. You can get copies of either book in our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>Resource Center. Shop, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order at 1-800-FL-TODAY\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u20141-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, Kim and LeRoy Wagner are going to be back with us. We\u2019re going to hear their advice to husbands and wives\u2014wives who are fierce women and husbands who are married to them\u2014what counsel do they have? We\u2019ll hear from them tomorrow. I hope you can be with us for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2017 FamilyLife. 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