{"id":304344,"date":"2017-01-18T12:00:00","date_gmt":"2017-01-18T17:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/loving-fiercely\/"},"modified":"2017-01-18T12:00:00","modified_gmt":"2017-01-18T17:00:00","slug":"loving-fiercely","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/loving-fiercely\/","title":{"rendered":"Loving Fiercely"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>guest: Kimberly Wagner, LeRoy Wagner | Series: Men Who Love Fierce Women | LeRoy was immediately charmed by the beautiful brunette. In time, Kimberly developed feelings for him. Thirteen months after their first date, they wed. LeRoy and Kimberly Wagner take us back to their honeymoon, where poor communication skills, combined with hurt feelings, set a pattern that would lead them to bitterness and isolation.Show Notes &#038; ResourcesVIDEO: LeRoy and Kimberly Wagner talk about their &#8216;come to Jesus&#8217; moment<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>LeRoy and Kimberly Wagner take us back to their honeymoon, where poor communication skills, combined with hurt feelings, set a pattern that would lead them to bitterness and isolation.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2017-01-18.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"31.04M","filesize_raw":"32551590","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2902,2863,2831],"tags":[2918,4018,6181,6177],"podcast_series":[8187],"cwp_profile":[3400,9442],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-304344","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-resolving-conflict","category-saving-a-marriage","category-wives","tag-conflict","tag-dating","tag-fight-or-flight","tag-isolation-in-marriage","podcast_series-men-who-love-fierce-women","cwp_profile-kimberly-wagner","cwp_profile-leroy-wagner","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/304344\/loving-fiercely","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/304344\/loving-fiercely","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"tnAUbnXKdx\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/loving-fiercely\/\">Loving Fiercely<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/loving-fiercely\/embed\/#?secret=tnAUbnXKdx\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Loving Fiercely&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"tnAUbnXKdx\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2017-01-18.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2017-01-18.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Kim and LeRoy Wagner remember being surprised when conflict was a part of the early years of their marriage. They were even more surprised when they realized that conflict had built a wall between the two of them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>It was conflict that was not a lot verbal conflict; but because he would retreat, he eventually, five years into the marriage\u2014he let me know he no longer loved me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>In the moment when I said that \u201cI don\u2019t think that I love you anymore,\u201d it was because we didn\u2019t really realize, at that point, what love was all about. If all that I ever felt like was\u2014I couldn\u2019t do anything right, I couldn\u2019t be the husband to her that she obviously needed, and I was failing at every point\u2014\u201cWell, I guess that I don\u2019t love her, or I would be everything that she needed me to be\u201d; but I didn\u2019t know how to do that. I think, sometimes, we succumb to that; and I retreated. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe lived in that marital misery for about another ten years until the Lord began to do His work of grace in our lives.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Wednesday, January 18<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. How does a couple, where both husband and wife love Christ and committed their lives and their marriage to Him, how do they wind up living as roommates for a decade? We\u2019ll hear from Kim and LeRoy Wagner today. Stay with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition. I have a question for you about your wife, Barbara. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut before I ask the question, a quick reminder to our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners\u2014this week is the last week that you can get in touch with us if you\u2019d like to attend one of our upcoming <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaways and you want to take advantage of a special offer we\u2019re making this week. We need to hear from you before the weekend is over.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe special offer is this\u2014if you\u2019d like to attend a getaway, as a couple, you pay the regular rate for yourself and your spouse comes free. It\u2019s an opportunity to save some money and attend what we believe is a great getaway for any couple\u2014whether your marriage is good and you just want to continue to pour a solid foundation under your relationship\u2014or maybe there\u2019s some conflict in your marriage that has never been resolved, and you could use some help. Come to a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOur spring season kicks off in early February and continues through June. Again, if you register this week, you pay the regular rate for yourself and your spouse comes free. Take advantage of that offer. Get in touch with us if you have any questions\u2014our toll-free number is 1-800-FL-TODAY \/ you can look, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014either register online for the upcoming event or call us to register, and plan to join us this spring for a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, get in touch with us now to save 50 percent on your registration cost.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, the question I had for you about Barbara: \u201cIf you had to pick a single adjective \/ a modifier\u2014one word to describe Barbara\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Consistent.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You have often said, \u201cI\u2019m married to a strong woman,\u201d\u2014you\u2019ve said that many times.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I have said that on a number of occasions. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think we may have a woman and her husband with us here on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>\u2014well, let\u2019s just find out \/ let\u2019s find out how LeRoy Wagner would describe his wife, Kimberly. By the way, LeRoy, Kimberly, welcome back to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Thank you. Good to be here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Thank you very much, Dennis.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So how would you describe Kimberly?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong><em>Fierce<\/em> with a capital \u201cF.\u201d [Laughter] [Strong voice] She\u2019s a <em>fierce<\/em> woman. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That\u2019s what you would go with?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Would you really?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Well, I think it would have to be defined in the work of God\u2014that He\u2019s done in our lives, and in our marriage, and in her life. I think she\u2019s still a very, very strong, fierce woman; but the one word\u2014when you were asking, Dennis\u2014that came to my mind is \u201cgodly.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, there you go. They\u2019ve been married since 1981. They have several adult children and grandchildren and live in Hot Springs, Arkansas. LeRoy\u2019s a pastor \/ a speaker\u2014has been for over three decades. Kimberly has written a book\u2014interestingly, Bob\u2014it\u2019s called <em>Fierce Women: The Power of a Soft Warrior<\/em>. Oh, that\u2019s an inviting title. LeRoy has written a book called <em>Men Who Love Fierce Women<\/em>\u2014actually\u2014you\u2019ve co-authored that book together.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI just want to know how you guys met. I mean, how does a fierce woman meet a man, who probably didn\u2019t have any idea he was marrying\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Oh, I\u2019ve heard this story. This happened in college; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>I would tell it, but I never get it right. I\u2019m going to defer. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>You don\u2019t want to at least start it, and I\u2019ll jump in?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Well, we were in Greek class. As you might expect, being a Greek student, you didn\u2019t expect to see beautiful young women there. It was just preacher boys\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This was a Bible college.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>This was a Bible college. I remember there were a couple of young ladies in our class; but on one of the first days of class\u2014I never will forget it\u2014the bell was ringing. It was almost to the last bell, and she came sweeping through the doorway, auburn hair flowing beautifully\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>This sounds like <em>Gone with the Wind<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Oh, I\u2019m telling you\u2014she was just a force of nature, a force of life, a force to be reckoned with.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So how long before you asked her out?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>I think it was probably a week\/two weeks from that point.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Okay; so how long from the first date to the wedding?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>About 13 months.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Yes; 13 months.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>That\u2019s pretty quick.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Pretty quick.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You were both still students.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Both still young\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Kids!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014and really didn\u2019t have a full biblical sense of what marriage was supposed to look like or what your roles in marriage were supposed to be.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Not at all.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Thought we did\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>\u2014but we didn\u2019t. I didn\u2019t think about cultural differences or the differences in the way that we were raised. I thought: \u201cHere is a woman that loves the Lord \/ here\u2019s a woman that loves me. We love to be together. We\u2019re both called to ministry. I mean, what can go wrong?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI actually\u2014I wouldn\u2019t have verbalized this\u2014but I kind of thought to myself: \u201cWhat woman wouldn\u2019t be just absolutely blessed to have me? I\u2019m just a great guy! [Laughter] I love the Lord. I go by the biblical code\/the Christian code: I don\u2019t do all of these things, and I do all these right things.\u201d I kind of entered into marriage with that kind of foolish\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, how did he propose, Kimberly?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Well, the first time\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Oh? Okay.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>See, that\u2019s an important point. He took me for a picnic at Lake DeGray, close to where we were in college. He laid out that question. I was blown away, and shocked, and not ready for that; because we hadn\u2019t known each other that long. So I had to have some serious discussion with him and tell him that I had a commitment that I would never go into marriage until God confirmed that I would be able to bring greater glory to Him married than single.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Had you really thought about the fact that you might be a single woman and do ministry, and that was okay with you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Sure! When I was nine years old, I surrendered to ministry\u2014I didn\u2019t even know what that was called at that time\u2014but I went to school telling all of my friends, telling my parents, and everyone, \u201cI will be a missionary\u201d\u2014I thought\u2014\u201cin Africa.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt was a calling of God to ministry that I never doubted. I was just preparing for that. I wasn\u2019t looking for a man \/ I wasn\u2019t looking for a husband, early on.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>But you\u2019d been going out with him for a year, Kimberly.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Not when he asked me to marry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>How long had you been out at that point?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>I think like two weeks! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>When you know, you know, Bob. I mean, I <em>knew<\/em>. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So, hold on! [Laughter] Both Bob and I are looking at each other\u2014we just went from\u2014from the line\u2014you\u2019re going through the food line\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We got Greek class\u2014you got the proposal\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014two weeks after that? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Right; right. That\u2019s about right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Pretty close to that; and then 13 months later\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>No wonder you kind of wondered what was up.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Yes! And so I was shocked. You know, I didn\u2019t give him an answer at all. We dated for\u2014and I can\u2019t say the exact period of time right now \/ maybe a couple more months\u2014it wasn\u2019t a lot longer than that that we dated. We were actually coming back from\u2014he preached a lot of what they would call revivals\u2014you know\u2014a series of meetings when we were in college. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe were driving back from one. Do you want to pick up now?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>No; I remember. [Laughter] I\u2019m just shaking my head because, \u201cOh, yes; that\u2019s right!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>\u201cOh, yes; that was a great time!\u201d [Laughter] There was a cemetery outside of Arkadelphia. There was this tall\u2014it would remind you of the\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>\u2014the Corcovado.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>\u2014the Corcovado statue of Jesus all lit up, you know, at night. We pulled off and went up there \/ walked up there to look at it. It was really cool. I just turned to him, because God had so clearly confirmed to me that this was the man I was to marry. I turned to him and I just\u2014we hadn\u2019t been talking about it \/ anything\u2014I just turned to him and said, \u201cAsk me again.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Wow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>And he knew what I meant by that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>There you go.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, you were ready, anytime.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>LeRoy, let me ask you this: \u201cHow long into your marriage before you diagnosed that you had married a fierce woman?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Well, even before our marriage, actually, Bob, there were a couple of points where her intensity \/ her emotional capacity to respond was beyond what I could deal with. Her fierceness, as a woman\u2014I thought, \u201cThis is going to be problematic.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You\u2019re a pretty easygoing guy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Very easygoing\/laid-back\u2014I come from a family where there wasn\u2019t any discussion at all. I didn\u2019t really know how to deal with conflict \/ wasn\u2019t really good at communication. Her family debated <em>everything<\/em> intensely\/<em>passionately<\/em>. I was freaked out the first time I was a part of their family discussion\u2014I thought, \u201cThis is crazy!\u201d That\u2019s just how they handled their\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So, you write in your book that on your honeymoon\u2014I want to know whose line this was in the book\u2014that you said, on the honeymoon, you knew you were in trouble.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>In our honeymoon, there were seeds that were sown that produced a bitter harvest throughout the course of our marriage. We found that to be true with a <em>lot<\/em> of couples. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>What do you mean?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>You really find your clashes of personality of the way you\u2019re viewing life. You think that everything\u2019s going to be perfect; and something happens, on the honeymoon usually, and you realize that it\u2019s not going to be what you expected it to be, what you desired it to be, what you naively thought it was going to be.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We know what you mean, in general. We want to know what you mean, specifically. What seeds got sown on the honeymoon that caused you to say, \u201cI\u2019m in trouble here\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>I guess, about our third night, I\u2019d driven several hundred miles. Kim had kind of napped, you know, while I was driving. When we got to our place where we were going to spend the night, she felt pretty rested; and I felt pretty tired. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI fell asleep on her, and\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That third night of the honeymoon.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>The third night of the honeymoon; yes\u2014not good.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I\u2019m getting the picture.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>She woke me up, crying.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>I was <em>not<\/em> happy. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>I didn\u2019t handle it very well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Meaning what?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Meaning I tried to listen to her, but thought that she was not being very loving or considerate of me. I didn\u2019t respond in a way to want to get to the bottom of <em>why<\/em> she was emotional \/ <em>why<\/em> she was crying. Because I didn\u2019t do that, she got even got more emotional and more intense, which caused me to kind of back away and just kind of want to not deal with it at all, which set a pattern for our relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And that pattern is a pattern of\u2014she wants to deal with things, and you retreat from that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>One of the things we talk about, at the <em>Weekend to Remember <\/em>marriage getaway when we\u2019re talking with couples, is about how, in conflict, there is typically one of two responses to conflict. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne is engagement, and the other is retreat. When you have couples who are in different situations like that, it can lead to real isolation in a marriage. Of course, if you\u2019re both just shouting at each other, that can lead to isolation as well; and if you both retreat. It helps to figure out one another\u2019s patterns to know what\u2019s going on; because when you can spot those patterns, then you can begin to correct it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut this was early on in your marriage. Rather than spotting patterns and saying, \u201cWe need to figure out how to fix this,\u201d this just set a course that went on for a decade or more?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>We became entrenched.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Yes. It was conflict that was not a lot of verbal conflict; but because he would retreat, he eventually, five years into the marriage, he let me know he no longer loved me. From that point, really, we settled into life of just maintaining our relationship and living more like roommates than friends or husband and wife.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>And I thought I was doing the noble thing by not sparring with her \/ by not coming back\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Oh, you really thought it was the right thing to do?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Yes; at that time\u2014absolutely; it was not\u2014but I thought: \u201cWell, I\u2019m not fighting with her. I\u2019m not the one continuing this emotional conflict. I\u2019m really the victim, because I\u2019m not engaging in this way.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes. So, here\u2019s the question: \u201cFive years into your marriage\u2014you\u2019d been to the Greek class together\u2014and yet you were <em>done<\/em>.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Your <em>pledge<\/em> to form your marriage \/ your covenant of marriage was more than just going to stay married for the rest of your life and be miserable\u2014your pledge was to love, honor, and cherish.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>We thought we were <em>trapped<\/em>, literally, by that commitment to one another and our covenant before our God. We both believed that divorce was not an option. So, in a way, again, we thought: \u201cWell, this is the noble thing to do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cWe have to stay with one another, no matter how miserable our marriage is; and we can\u2019t seem to work it out.\u201d Again, we believed a lie that, \u201cThis is the way it is, I guess, going to continue and going to be.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We had a listener to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> who wrote us one time\u2014she said: \u201cHere\u2019s what I observed about my parents\u2014they were committed. They were going to stay together and die bitter.\u201d That\u2019s how she described her parents\u2019 relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>And yet, individually, we kept crying out to God. We kept asking God\u2014I kept saying: \u201cThere <em>has<\/em> to be an answer. I love God \/ I love His Word. He knows the Word \/ he loves God\u2014he\u2019s committed to ministry. We\u2019re committed to Christ, but we\u2019re not meeting one another. There <em>has<\/em> to be an answer.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>In the midst of this isolation between the two of you, were there moments when you looked at each other and thought, \u201cOkay; maybe we can make\u2026\u201d\u2014moments of hope, where you thought\u2014\u201cWe\u2019ll find our way out of here\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>At some points there were, Bob. I mean, we would have times where it seemed like, \u201cOkay, this is getting better,\u201d or \u201cWe can make a go of this\u201d; but it would <em>always<\/em> be just <em>dashed<\/em> against the rocks. It would even end up becoming more hopeless until I lost all hope and despaired.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And vocationally, you were doing what?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Well, I was pastoring for most of that time until I got to a point, where I said: \u201cI can\u2019t do this. I mean, I cannot continue to pastor, knowing that our marriage is this way.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Kimberly, when you get in a situation where it\u2019s fight or flight, it\u2019s one thing for him to experience flight. Usually, the person who\u2019s fighting ratchets up the fighting to get the attention of the other, thinking that the volume and the pain expressed will somehow get the attention of the other.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Oh, right; definitely. I did that\u2014a lot of women do that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA lot of the male listeners, right now\u2014I hope they hear this\u2014that the woman is probably not intentionally trying to hurt you, to harm you, to demean you, or emasculate you. She\u2019s trying to get your attention. She wants you to step up and be that godly spiritual leader for her, but she doesn\u2019t know how to motivate you to do that. She\u2019s crying out for attention.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was crying out: \u201cLeRoy, <em>please<\/em> talk to me. <em>Please<\/em> communicate with me. <em>Please help me<\/em>.\u201d And yet, that\u2019s not what I <em>said<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>All I heard was, \u201cYou cannot do anything right.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>We each hear what we kind of condition our souls to hear with that inner ear. Even though we might know the truth, we dismiss the truth; because what\u2019s happening in front of us is so real, and so raw, and so painful.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And there are a lot of people listening to this broadcast, right now, nodding their heads, going: \u201cThat\u2019s us. We\u2019re living that now.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>A lot of these folks finally decide to come to the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt the getaway, what you hear us say in this message on conflict resolution\u2014that when one person is crying out\u2014like you were, Kimberly\u2014view it as the red light on the dashboard. It\u2019s telling you something is wrong, internally; and you need to pull off the side of the road and address it. You don\u2019t pull out a ball bat and smash the red light.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014or put a piece of tape over the red light so you just don\u2019t see it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes; and pretend it\u2019s not there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You have to take the red light on the dashboard and go: \u201cMaybe there\u2019s something that needs to be addressed here. Maybe some of it\u2019s my problem, and maybe some of it\u2019s my spouse\u2019s problem.\u201d The point is\u2014the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> provides the blueprints and the hope to help people get out of a ditch like we\u2019re talking about here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>LeRoy, I can understand perfectly your withdrawal; because, as you said, if what a guy is hearing is, \u201cI can\u2019t do anything right,\u201d\u2014well, I\u2019ve used this illustration\u2014if you go out and play golf two or three times and you go, \u201cI\u2019m no good at this game,\u201d most guys don\u2019t go: \u201cI want to do that again next Saturday. I want to go play another round of a game I\u2019m no good at.\u201d You try it a few times; when you learn, \u201cI\u2019m obviously no good at this game,\u201d you go on to something else.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou were withdrawing because anytime you and Kimberly got together to talk about marriage, that message that, \u201cYou\u2019re no good at this,\u201d was what you were <em>hearing<\/em>. How long did this season of isolation last? You said it was about five years in when you said, \u201cI am not in love with my wife anymore.\u201d You continued to pastor for a period of time\u2014how long were you in this kind of living-together-but-living-bitter arrangement?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Far too long. In the moment when I said, Bob, that, \u201cI don\u2019t think that I love you anymore,\u201d it was because\u2014I think that\u2019s a good thing, in a way, to come to; because we didn\u2019t really realize, at that point, what love was all about. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf all that I ever felt like was\u2014I couldn\u2019t do anything right, I couldn\u2019t be the husband to her that she obviously needed, and I was failing at every point\u2014\u201cWell, I guess that I don\u2019t love her, or I would be everything that she needed me to be\u201d; but I didn\u2019t know how to do that. I think, sometimes, we succumb to that; and I just retreated. We lived in that marital misery for about another ten years until the Lord began to do His work of grace in our lives.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Like a tennis match, batting the ball back and forth.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>At this point, you had a couple kids? Is that right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>We had a couple small children; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, here you are\u2014raising a couple of children in a household where husband and wife are isolated from one another, hopeless and stuck.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>That\u2019s a good way to put it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I just say\u2014if you find yourself there today, you just need to know the rest of this story. You need to hang with us as we tell the rest of this story. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut you need to find some wise counselors who are going to bring the wisdom of the Scriptures to bear against the ditch that you\u2019re in. One of the ways you can do that is through picking up the book called <em>Men Who Love Fierce Women<\/em> that they\u2019ve written, because you\u2019re going to identify with a good bit of what they\u2019ve been through. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe other way you can deal with this is sign up to go to a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway. Or a third way is go to church and find a godly couple there. Ask around, but pray first. Then find a couple that you can start meeting with; and ask them a simple word: \u201cHelp. Would you help us?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I am trying to imagine a husband, who\u2019s listening, who says: \u201cI should probably get that book, <em>Men Who Love Fierce Women<\/em>. I\u2019ll just have it sent to the house.\u201d Then his wife\u2019s going to open it up\u2014right?\u2014they go, \u201cWhat are you trying to say here, honey?\u201d [Laughter] But honestly, some of this needs to be a catalyst for having conversation about what\u2019s really going on in your relationship. I think that\u2019s what the two of you are providing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, there may be some women, Bob, who recognize they are indeed fierce; and their fierceness is driving their husband away.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And they can get a copy of Kimberly\u2019s book, which is called <em>Fierce Women<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, or they can get a copy of this\u2014start reading it \/ start underlining it\u2014because, undoubtedly, at some point, God\u2019s going to work in a woman\u2019s life in such a way that He\/God will get her husband\u2019s attention.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes; of course, we have both books in our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>Resource Center. A listener can go to FamilyLifeToday.com to order <em>Fierce Women<\/em> or <em>Men Who Love Fierce Women<\/em>. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com. Call to order either or both of the books written by Kimberly Wagner and her husband LeRoy. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com; and you can call at 1-800-FL-TODAY to get your copy of these books.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd then don\u2019t forget the special offer we\u2019re making this week for <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you\u2019d like to attend an upcoming <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway, you pay the regular rate this week for yourself, and your spouse comes free. It\u2019s the best offer we make all year long on the cost of the getaway. And by the way, I should mention\u2014if you come to the getaway, and you don\u2019t think it\u2019s worth what you paid, we\u2019ll refund your registration rate with no questions asked. You really can\u2019t lose by coming to a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway this spring.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re going to be hosting these events in dozens of cities all across the country, starting here in a couple of weeks. Go to the website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to find out when a getaway is coming to a city near where you live, or call if you have any questions at 1-800-FL-TODAY. We can either get you registered over the phone, or you can register online. And again, when you register before the weekend is over, you will save 50 percent on you registration fee\u2014you pay the regular rate for yourself and your spouse comes free. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope to see you at an upcoming event. If you have any questions, get in touch with us at 1-800-FL-TODAY.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we\u2019re going to hear about the road back from isolation. What was it that eventually brought Kim and LeRoy Wagner back together, as husband and wife, and what did God teach them in the process? That comes up tomorrow. I hope you can be with us for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t______________________________________________________________________________\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\"><u>donating today<\/u><\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["31.04M"],"filesize_raw":["32551590"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-304344.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-304344.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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and Kimberly Wagner take us back to their honeymoon, where poor communication skills, combined with hurt feelings, set a pattern that would lead them to bitterness and isolation.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2017-01-18.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Kim and LeRoy Wagner remember being surprised when conflict was a part of the early years of their marriage. They were even more surprised when they realized that conflict had built a wall between the two of them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>It was conflict that was not a lot verbal conflict; but because he would retreat, he eventually, five years into the marriage\u2014he let me know he no longer loved me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>In the moment when I said that \u201cI don\u2019t think that I love you anymore,\u201d it was because we didn\u2019t really realize, at that point, what love was all about. If all that I ever felt like was\u2014I couldn\u2019t do anything right, I couldn\u2019t be the husband to her that she obviously needed, and I was failing at every point\u2014\u201cWell, I guess that I don\u2019t love her, or I would be everything that she needed me to be\u201d; but I didn\u2019t know how to do that. I think, sometimes, we succumb to that; and I retreated. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe lived in that marital misery for about another ten years until the Lord began to do His work of grace in our lives.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Wednesday, January 18<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. How does a couple, where both husband and wife love Christ and committed their lives and their marriage to Him, how do they wind up living as roommates for a decade? We\u2019ll hear from Kim and LeRoy Wagner today. Stay with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition. I have a question for you about your wife, Barbara. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut before I ask the question, a quick reminder to our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners\u2014this week is the last week that you can get in touch with us if you\u2019d like to attend one of our upcoming <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaways and you want to take advantage of a special offer we\u2019re making this week. We need to hear from you before the weekend is over.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe special offer is this\u2014if you\u2019d like to attend a getaway, as a couple, you pay the regular rate for yourself and your spouse comes free. It\u2019s an opportunity to save some money and attend what we believe is a great getaway for any couple\u2014whether your marriage is good and you just want to continue to pour a solid foundation under your relationship\u2014or maybe there\u2019s some conflict in your marriage that has never been resolved, and you could use some help. Come to a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOur spring season kicks off in early February and continues through June. Again, if you register this week, you pay the regular rate for yourself and your spouse comes free. Take advantage of that offer. Get in touch with us if you have any questions\u2014our toll-free number is 1-800-FL-TODAY \/ you can look, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014either register online for the upcoming event or call us to register, and plan to join us this spring for a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, get in touch with us now to save 50 percent on your registration cost.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, the question I had for you about Barbara: \u201cIf you had to pick a single adjective \/ a modifier\u2014one word to describe Barbara\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Consistent.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You have often said, \u201cI\u2019m married to a strong woman,\u201d\u2014you\u2019ve said that many times.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I have said that on a number of occasions. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think we may have a woman and her husband with us here on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>\u2014well, let\u2019s just find out \/ let\u2019s find out how LeRoy Wagner would describe his wife, Kimberly. By the way, LeRoy, Kimberly, welcome back to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Thank you. Good to be here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Thank you very much, Dennis.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So how would you describe Kimberly?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong><em>Fierce<\/em> with a capital \u201cF.\u201d [Laughter] [Strong voice] She\u2019s a <em>fierce<\/em> woman. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That\u2019s what you would go with?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Would you really?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Well, I think it would have to be defined in the work of God\u2014that He\u2019s done in our lives, and in our marriage, and in her life. I think she\u2019s still a very, very strong, fierce woman; but the one word\u2014when you were asking, Dennis\u2014that came to my mind is \u201cgodly.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, there you go. They\u2019ve been married since 1981. They have several adult children and grandchildren and live in Hot Springs, Arkansas. LeRoy\u2019s a pastor \/ a speaker\u2014has been for over three decades. Kimberly has written a book\u2014interestingly, Bob\u2014it\u2019s called <em>Fierce Women: The Power of a Soft Warrior<\/em>. Oh, that\u2019s an inviting title. LeRoy has written a book called <em>Men Who Love Fierce Women<\/em>\u2014actually\u2014you\u2019ve co-authored that book together.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI just want to know how you guys met. I mean, how does a fierce woman meet a man, who probably didn\u2019t have any idea he was marrying\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Oh, I\u2019ve heard this story. This happened in college; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>I would tell it, but I never get it right. I\u2019m going to defer. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>You don\u2019t want to at least start it, and I\u2019ll jump in?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Well, we were in Greek class. As you might expect, being a Greek student, you didn\u2019t expect to see beautiful young women there. It was just preacher boys\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This was a Bible college.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>This was a Bible college. I remember there were a couple of young ladies in our class; but on one of the first days of class\u2014I never will forget it\u2014the bell was ringing. It was almost to the last bell, and she came sweeping through the doorway, auburn hair flowing beautifully\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>This sounds like <em>Gone with the Wind<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Oh, I\u2019m telling you\u2014she was just a force of nature, a force of life, a force to be reckoned with.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So how long before you asked her out?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>I think it was probably a week\/two weeks from that point.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Okay; so how long from the first date to the wedding?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>About 13 months.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Yes; 13 months.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>That\u2019s pretty quick.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Pretty quick.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You were both still students.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Both still young\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Kids!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014and really didn\u2019t have a full biblical sense of what marriage was supposed to look like or what your roles in marriage were supposed to be.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Not at all.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Thought we did\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>\u2014but we didn\u2019t. I didn\u2019t think about cultural differences or the differences in the way that we were raised. I thought: \u201cHere is a woman that loves the Lord \/ here\u2019s a woman that loves me. We love to be together. We\u2019re both called to ministry. I mean, what can go wrong?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI actually\u2014I wouldn\u2019t have verbalized this\u2014but I kind of thought to myself: \u201cWhat woman wouldn\u2019t be just absolutely blessed to have me? I\u2019m just a great guy! [Laughter] I love the Lord. I go by the biblical code\/the Christian code: I don\u2019t do all of these things, and I do all these right things.\u201d I kind of entered into marriage with that kind of foolish\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, how did he propose, Kimberly?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Well, the first time\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Oh? Okay.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>See, that\u2019s an important point. He took me for a picnic at Lake DeGray, close to where we were in college. He laid out that question. I was blown away, and shocked, and not ready for that; because we hadn\u2019t known each other that long. So I had to have some serious discussion with him and tell him that I had a commitment that I would never go into marriage until God confirmed that I would be able to bring greater glory to Him married than single.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Had you really thought about the fact that you might be a single woman and do ministry, and that was okay with you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Sure! When I was nine years old, I surrendered to ministry\u2014I didn\u2019t even know what that was called at that time\u2014but I went to school telling all of my friends, telling my parents, and everyone, \u201cI will be a missionary\u201d\u2014I thought\u2014\u201cin Africa.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt was a calling of God to ministry that I never doubted. I was just preparing for that. I wasn\u2019t looking for a man \/ I wasn\u2019t looking for a husband, early on.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>But you\u2019d been going out with him for a year, Kimberly.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Not when he asked me to marry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>How long had you been out at that point?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>I think like two weeks! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>When you know, you know, Bob. I mean, I <em>knew<\/em>. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So, hold on! [Laughter] Both Bob and I are looking at each other\u2014we just went from\u2014from the line\u2014you\u2019re going through the food line\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We got Greek class\u2014you got the proposal\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014two weeks after that? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Right; right. That\u2019s about right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Pretty close to that; and then 13 months later\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>No wonder you kind of wondered what was up.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Yes! And so I was shocked. You know, I didn\u2019t give him an answer at all. We dated for\u2014and I can\u2019t say the exact period of time right now \/ maybe a couple more months\u2014it wasn\u2019t a lot longer than that that we dated. We were actually coming back from\u2014he preached a lot of what they would call revivals\u2014you know\u2014a series of meetings when we were in college. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe were driving back from one. Do you want to pick up now?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>No; I remember. [Laughter] I\u2019m just shaking my head because, \u201cOh, yes; that\u2019s right!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>\u201cOh, yes; that was a great time!\u201d [Laughter] There was a cemetery outside of Arkadelphia. There was this tall\u2014it would remind you of the\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>\u2014the Corcovado.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>\u2014the Corcovado statue of Jesus all lit up, you know, at night. We pulled off and went up there \/ walked up there to look at it. It was really cool. I just turned to him, because God had so clearly confirmed to me that this was the man I was to marry. I turned to him and I just\u2014we hadn\u2019t been talking about it \/ anything\u2014I just turned to him and said, \u201cAsk me again.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Wow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>And he knew what I meant by that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>There you go.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, you were ready, anytime.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>LeRoy, let me ask you this: \u201cHow long into your marriage before you diagnosed that you had married a fierce woman?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Well, even before our marriage, actually, Bob, there were a couple of points where her intensity \/ her emotional capacity to respond was beyond what I could deal with. Her fierceness, as a woman\u2014I thought, \u201cThis is going to be problematic.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You\u2019re a pretty easygoing guy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Very easygoing\/laid-back\u2014I come from a family where there wasn\u2019t any discussion at all. I didn\u2019t really know how to deal with conflict \/ wasn\u2019t really good at communication. Her family debated <em>everything<\/em> intensely\/<em>passionately<\/em>. I was freaked out the first time I was a part of their family discussion\u2014I thought, \u201cThis is crazy!\u201d That\u2019s just how they handled their\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So, you write in your book that on your honeymoon\u2014I want to know whose line this was in the book\u2014that you said, on the honeymoon, you knew you were in trouble.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>In our honeymoon, there were seeds that were sown that produced a bitter harvest throughout the course of our marriage. We found that to be true with a <em>lot<\/em> of couples. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>What do you mean?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>You really find your clashes of personality of the way you\u2019re viewing life. You think that everything\u2019s going to be perfect; and something happens, on the honeymoon usually, and you realize that it\u2019s not going to be what you expected it to be, what you desired it to be, what you naively thought it was going to be.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We know what you mean, in general. We want to know what you mean, specifically. What seeds got sown on the honeymoon that caused you to say, \u201cI\u2019m in trouble here\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>I guess, about our third night, I\u2019d driven several hundred miles. Kim had kind of napped, you know, while I was driving. When we got to our place where we were going to spend the night, she felt pretty rested; and I felt pretty tired. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI fell asleep on her, and\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That third night of the honeymoon.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>The third night of the honeymoon; yes\u2014not good.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I\u2019m getting the picture.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>She woke me up, crying.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>I was <em>not<\/em> happy. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>I didn\u2019t handle it very well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Meaning what?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Meaning I tried to listen to her, but thought that she was not being very loving or considerate of me. I didn\u2019t respond in a way to want to get to the bottom of <em>why<\/em> she was emotional \/ <em>why<\/em> she was crying. Because I didn\u2019t do that, she got even got more emotional and more intense, which caused me to kind of back away and just kind of want to not deal with it at all, which set a pattern for our relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And that pattern is a pattern of\u2014she wants to deal with things, and you retreat from that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>One of the things we talk about, at the <em>Weekend to Remember <\/em>marriage getaway when we\u2019re talking with couples, is about how, in conflict, there is typically one of two responses to conflict. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne is engagement, and the other is retreat. When you have couples who are in different situations like that, it can lead to real isolation in a marriage. Of course, if you\u2019re both just shouting at each other, that can lead to isolation as well; and if you both retreat. It helps to figure out one another\u2019s patterns to know what\u2019s going on; because when you can spot those patterns, then you can begin to correct it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut this was early on in your marriage. Rather than spotting patterns and saying, \u201cWe need to figure out how to fix this,\u201d this just set a course that went on for a decade or more?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>We became entrenched.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Yes. It was conflict that was not a lot of verbal conflict; but because he would retreat, he eventually, five years into the marriage, he let me know he no longer loved me. From that point, really, we settled into life of just maintaining our relationship and living more like roommates than friends or husband and wife.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>And I thought I was doing the noble thing by not sparring with her \/ by not coming back\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Oh, you really thought it was the right thing to do?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Yes; at that time\u2014absolutely; it was not\u2014but I thought: \u201cWell, I\u2019m not fighting with her. I\u2019m not the one continuing this emotional conflict. I\u2019m really the victim, because I\u2019m not engaging in this way.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes. So, here\u2019s the question: \u201cFive years into your marriage\u2014you\u2019d been to the Greek class together\u2014and yet you were <em>done<\/em>.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Your <em>pledge<\/em> to form your marriage \/ your covenant of marriage was more than just going to stay married for the rest of your life and be miserable\u2014your pledge was to love, honor, and cherish.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>We thought we were <em>trapped<\/em>, literally, by that commitment to one another and our covenant before our God. We both believed that divorce was not an option. So, in a way, again, we thought: \u201cWell, this is the noble thing to do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cWe have to stay with one another, no matter how miserable our marriage is; and we can\u2019t seem to work it out.\u201d Again, we believed a lie that, \u201cThis is the way it is, I guess, going to continue and going to be.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We had a listener to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> who wrote us one time\u2014she said: \u201cHere\u2019s what I observed about my parents\u2014they were committed. They were going to stay together and die bitter.\u201d That\u2019s how she described her parents\u2019 relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>And yet, individually, we kept crying out to God. We kept asking God\u2014I kept saying: \u201cThere <em>has<\/em> to be an answer. I love God \/ I love His Word. He knows the Word \/ he loves God\u2014he\u2019s committed to ministry. We\u2019re committed to Christ, but we\u2019re not meeting one another. There <em>has<\/em> to be an answer.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>In the midst of this isolation between the two of you, were there moments when you looked at each other and thought, \u201cOkay; maybe we can make\u2026\u201d\u2014moments of hope, where you thought\u2014\u201cWe\u2019ll find our way out of here\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>At some points there were, Bob. I mean, we would have times where it seemed like, \u201cOkay, this is getting better,\u201d or \u201cWe can make a go of this\u201d; but it would <em>always<\/em> be just <em>dashed<\/em> against the rocks. It would even end up becoming more hopeless until I lost all hope and despaired.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And vocationally, you were doing what?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Well, I was pastoring for most of that time until I got to a point, where I said: \u201cI can\u2019t do this. I mean, I cannot continue to pastor, knowing that our marriage is this way.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Kimberly, when you get in a situation where it\u2019s fight or flight, it\u2019s one thing for him to experience flight. Usually, the person who\u2019s fighting ratchets up the fighting to get the attention of the other, thinking that the volume and the pain expressed will somehow get the attention of the other.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Oh, right; definitely. I did that\u2014a lot of women do that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA lot of the male listeners, right now\u2014I hope they hear this\u2014that the woman is probably not intentionally trying to hurt you, to harm you, to demean you, or emasculate you. She\u2019s trying to get your attention. She wants you to step up and be that godly spiritual leader for her, but she doesn\u2019t know how to motivate you to do that. She\u2019s crying out for attention.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was crying out: \u201cLeRoy, <em>please<\/em> talk to me. <em>Please<\/em> communicate with me. <em>Please help me<\/em>.\u201d And yet, that\u2019s not what I <em>said<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>All I heard was, \u201cYou cannot do anything right.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>We each hear what we kind of condition our souls to hear with that inner ear. Even though we might know the truth, we dismiss the truth; because what\u2019s happening in front of us is so real, and so raw, and so painful.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And there are a lot of people listening to this broadcast, right now, nodding their heads, going: \u201cThat\u2019s us. We\u2019re living that now.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>A lot of these folks finally decide to come to the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt the getaway, what you hear us say in this message on conflict resolution\u2014that when one person is crying out\u2014like you were, Kimberly\u2014view it as the red light on the dashboard. It\u2019s telling you something is wrong, internally; and you need to pull off the side of the road and address it. You don\u2019t pull out a ball bat and smash the red light.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014or put a piece of tape over the red light so you just don\u2019t see it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes; and pretend it\u2019s not there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You have to take the red light on the dashboard and go: \u201cMaybe there\u2019s something that needs to be addressed here. Maybe some of it\u2019s my problem, and maybe some of it\u2019s my spouse\u2019s problem.\u201d The point is\u2014the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> provides the blueprints and the hope to help people get out of a ditch like we\u2019re talking about here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>LeRoy, I can understand perfectly your withdrawal; because, as you said, if what a guy is hearing is, \u201cI can\u2019t do anything right,\u201d\u2014well, I\u2019ve used this illustration\u2014if you go out and play golf two or three times and you go, \u201cI\u2019m no good at this game,\u201d most guys don\u2019t go: \u201cI want to do that again next Saturday. I want to go play another round of a game I\u2019m no good at.\u201d You try it a few times; when you learn, \u201cI\u2019m obviously no good at this game,\u201d you go on to something else.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou were withdrawing because anytime you and Kimberly got together to talk about marriage, that message that, \u201cYou\u2019re no good at this,\u201d was what you were <em>hearing<\/em>. How long did this season of isolation last? You said it was about five years in when you said, \u201cI am not in love with my wife anymore.\u201d You continued to pastor for a period of time\u2014how long were you in this kind of living-together-but-living-bitter arrangement?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Far too long. In the moment when I said, Bob, that, \u201cI don\u2019t think that I love you anymore,\u201d it was because\u2014I think that\u2019s a good thing, in a way, to come to; because we didn\u2019t really realize, at that point, what love was all about. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf all that I ever felt like was\u2014I couldn\u2019t do anything right, I couldn\u2019t be the husband to her that she obviously needed, and I was failing at every point\u2014\u201cWell, I guess that I don\u2019t love her, or I would be everything that she needed me to be\u201d; but I didn\u2019t know how to do that. I think, sometimes, we succumb to that; and I just retreated. We lived in that marital misery for about another ten years until the Lord began to do His work of grace in our lives.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Like a tennis match, batting the ball back and forth.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>At this point, you had a couple kids? Is that right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim: <\/strong>We had a couple small children; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, here you are\u2014raising a couple of children in a household where husband and wife are isolated from one another, hopeless and stuck.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>LeRoy: <\/strong>That\u2019s a good way to put it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I just say\u2014if you find yourself there today, you just need to know the rest of this story. You need to hang with us as we tell the rest of this story. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut you need to find some wise counselors who are going to bring the wisdom of the Scriptures to bear against the ditch that you\u2019re in. One of the ways you can do that is through picking up the book called <em>Men Who Love Fierce Women<\/em> that they\u2019ve written, because you\u2019re going to identify with a good bit of what they\u2019ve been through. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe other way you can deal with this is sign up to go to a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway. Or a third way is go to church and find a godly couple there. Ask around, but pray first. Then find a couple that you can start meeting with; and ask them a simple word: \u201cHelp. Would you help us?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I am trying to imagine a husband, who\u2019s listening, who says: \u201cI should probably get that book, <em>Men Who Love Fierce Women<\/em>. I\u2019ll just have it sent to the house.\u201d Then his wife\u2019s going to open it up\u2014right?\u2014they go, \u201cWhat are you trying to say here, honey?\u201d [Laughter] But honestly, some of this needs to be a catalyst for having conversation about what\u2019s really going on in your relationship. I think that\u2019s what the two of you are providing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, there may be some women, Bob, who recognize they are indeed fierce; and their fierceness is driving their husband away.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And they can get a copy of Kimberly\u2019s book, which is called <em>Fierce Women<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, or they can get a copy of this\u2014start reading it \/ start underlining it\u2014because, undoubtedly, at some point, God\u2019s going to work in a woman\u2019s life in such a way that He\/God will get her husband\u2019s attention.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes; of course, we have both books in our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>Resource Center. A listener can go to FamilyLifeToday.com to order <em>Fierce Women<\/em> or <em>Men Who Love Fierce Women<\/em>. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com. Call to order either or both of the books written by Kimberly Wagner and her husband LeRoy. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com; and you can call at 1-800-FL-TODAY to get your copy of these books.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd then don\u2019t forget the special offer we\u2019re making this week for <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you\u2019d like to attend an upcoming <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway, you pay the regular rate this week for yourself, and your spouse comes free. It\u2019s the best offer we make all year long on the cost of the getaway. And by the way, I should mention\u2014if you come to the getaway, and you don\u2019t think it\u2019s worth what you paid, we\u2019ll refund your registration rate with no questions asked. You really can\u2019t lose by coming to a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway this spring.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re going to be hosting these events in dozens of cities all across the country, starting here in a couple of weeks. Go to the website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to find out when a getaway is coming to a city near where you live, or call if you have any questions at 1-800-FL-TODAY. We can either get you registered over the phone, or you can register online. And again, when you register before the weekend is over, you will save 50 percent on you registration fee\u2014you pay the regular rate for yourself and your spouse comes free. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope to see you at an upcoming event. If you have any questions, get in touch with us at 1-800-FL-TODAY.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we\u2019re going to hear about the road back from isolation. What was it that eventually brought Kim and LeRoy Wagner back together, as husband and wife, and what did God teach them in the process? That comes up tomorrow. I hope you can be with us for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t______________________________________________________________________________\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\"><u>donating today<\/u><\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2017 FamilyLife. 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