{"id":304000,"date":"2016-05-17T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2016-05-17T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/desire-and-identity\/"},"modified":"2016-05-17T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2016-05-17T15:00:00","slug":"desire-and-identity","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/desire-and-identity\/","title":{"rendered":"Desire and Identity"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Heath Lambert and Denny Burk remind us that God wants all of our desires to conform to His will, including homosexual desires.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2016-05-17.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"27.18M","filesize_raw":"28500047","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2848,2822],"tags":[5931,4129],"podcast_series":[8142],"cwp_profile":[9352,9344],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-304000","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cultural-issues","category-growing-in-your-faith","tag-gender-identity","tag-homosexuality","podcast_series-transforming-desire","cwp_profile-denny-burk","cwp_profile-heath-lambert","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/304000\/desire-and-identity","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/304000\/desire-and-identity","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"vBgPOhk8sv\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/desire-and-identity\/\">Desire and Identity<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/desire-and-identity\/embed\/#?secret=vBgPOhk8sv\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Desire and Identity&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"vBgPOhk8sv\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2016-05-17.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2016-05-17.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Many of us have had the experience of being in a conversation with someone talking about sexual sin or sexual behavior. We can see that, in ourselves, we were not full of both grace and truth in the midst of that conversation. Here\u2019s pastor and author Heath Lambert. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Heath: <\/strong>I think we need to repent any time we have spoken the truth but not done it in love. Some people will say, \u201cWell, I\u2019m just going to tell you the way it is!\u201d\u00a0 It\u2019s not a virtue in the Bible. In the Bible, a virtue is when you tell it the way it is, but you do that in love. And I think one of the ways we are going to get at that spot, as Christians, is when we realize that it\u2019s not <em>merely<\/em> homosexual persons who are broken\u2014but we\u2019re all broken. A good friend of mine says, \u201cBecause of sin, none of us are sexually straight.\u201d\u00a0 So, if we can be honest and realize that we <em>all<\/em> need repentance because of sexual sin that we\u2019ve committed, either in heart or in deed, that\u2019s going to change the way we approach other people who struggle. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, May 17<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. It is important that we hold firmly to the truth of Scripture in our convictions, but how we hold onto that truth is just as critical. We\u2019ll spend time thinking about that together today. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. Feel like we\u2019ve got a little bit of a heavy-weight battle going on. In one corner are the culture and my own passions, and in the other corner is the Bible. And in our culture today, there are a lot of people who are saying, \u201cI think the culture and my passions are stronger than \/ are more powerful than the Bible.\u201d\u00a0 At least, they are capitulating to that in a lot of different areas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>They are. There\u2019s not a parent who is listening to our broadcast that doesn\u2019t feel that boxing match, Bob. The culture is attempting to confuse, distort, and seduce our children. Yet, we\u2019re trying to uphold the Bible and help our children grapple with its teaching and ultimately determine what they should believe\u2014and that\u2019s called a conviction. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to introduce a couple of guys who have heroically written a book called <em>Transforming Homosexuality: What the Bible Says about Sexual Orientation<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And why do you say \u201cheroically\u201d?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, Bob! This culture punishes people. I\u2019ve had listeners write me and say: \u201cHow can I be such a bigot to hold to the teachings of Scripture and say that marriage is between a man and a woman?\u00a0 Why would you want to withhold happiness from other people? I don\u2019t get up in the morning, wanting to harm other people. I do what I do to help other people, and I think the greatest help in the world is found in the Bible \/ in the person of Christ.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd these guys do too. Dr. Heath Lambert and Dr. Denny Burk join us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. What about it, guys?\u00a0 Have you guys had any pushback?\u00a0 I would say you guys have probably had some pushback from the community of faith\u2014have you?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Heath: <\/strong>Oh, yes. The most trouble I\u2019ve ever been in, in my life, has been when I\u2019ve been talking about these issues. I\u2019ve been personally threatened. My children have been threatened because of simply taking a biblical position that homosexuality is a sin, like every other sin, and Jesus paid for it like every other sin. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>All because you are upholding what the Bible teaches about one of the more controversial issues in our culture. What about you, Denny?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Denny: <\/strong>I\u2019ve gotten all kinds of pushback over these things, but I think this isn\u2019t something that should surprise us. This is just what happens when the light hits the darkness, I believe. I don\u2019t think that Heath and I are claiming any special insight. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think it\u2019s just the Scripture. And when the Scripture comes in, it divides; right? I mean, it really does shed light on a situation. People, who don\u2019t like the light, fight against the light. So, we just have to get used to that. We\u2019re in a cultural situation where we\u2019re not going to get a ton of \u201c\u2018at a boys\u201d for following Jesus; but Jesus told us it would be that way. So, it shouldn\u2019t be surprising to us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, I want to try and do this with you guys because the book that you\u2019ve written, <em>Transforming Homosexuality<\/em>, is a book that gets to the issue of desire. You\u2019re talking about the fact that it\u2019s not just homosexual behavior that is out of bounds for Christians. But if you find yourself attracted and you entertain that attraction, or even if you don\u2019t\u2014but it\u2019s persistent \/ it\u2019s there in your life\u2014that needs to change in you. That attraction \/ that very temptation should be different about you after a period of time of walking with Jesus; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s your hypothesis?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Denny: <\/strong>Yes, that\u2019s correct. And by the way, this isn\u2019t new. This is just what\u2014this is what we believe as Christians. The Ten Commandments: \u201cYou shall not commit adultery,\u201d\u2014seventh commandment. Tenth commandment: \u201cYou shall not desire your neighbor\u2019s wife.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Covet. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Denny: <\/strong>Covet\u2014and the word for covet there is just the same word for desire. So, the issue is\u2014even in the Ten Commandments, it\u2019s not just the not doing of the adultery\u2014\u201cDon\u2019t do it,\u201d\u2014you shouldn\u2019t desire it. Jesus was not reinventing the wheel in Matthew 5 when He says, \u201cYou\u2019ve heard that it was said, \u2018Do not commit adultery,\u2019 but I say to you whoever looks at his neighbor\u2019s wife has already committed adultery with her in his heart.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe was teaching us what the Ten Commandments meant all along for people, who had eyes to see and ears to hear\u2014that it\u2019s not just external behavior modification that the Lord is aiming for when He saves us and changes us. He\u2019s interested in reordering our desires\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014including our sexual desires. He wants them to be in conformity with His will. So, Jesus is saying that it <em>matters<\/em> what you desire. It <em>matters<\/em> what\u2019s going on in your heart, not just your behavior. And the Christian church\u2014we agree on that when it comes to the nature of heterosexual sin. We\u2019re trying to say, \u201cWe should apply this to homosexual sin as well.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>This book could be written about transforming materialism, transforming heterosexual lust, transforming gambling. It\u2019s all about the desires of our hearts that are turned toward evil. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Heath: <\/strong>That\u2019s right. We want to treat homosexuality and homosexual sin just like we treat every other sin. Our concern is that, out of a well-intended desire, to want to give people who struggle with homosexuality a break. They are looking at these people, who are saying: \u201cYou\u2019re not just saying my behavior is wrong\u2014you\u2019re saying I\u2019m wrong? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cYou\u2019re saying everything about my sexual desires is wrong?\u201d\u00a0 People hear that and they want to offer them a break. They want to give them a rest. So, they say, \u201cWell, maybe, not everything. Just don\u2019t do the behavior, and we\u2019re going to try to find some place to put these desires.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd what we want to say is: \u201cThe Christian church has <em>never<\/em> said that about any sin because the Bible doesn\u2019t say it.\u201d\u00a0 The Bible says, \u201cOur behavior changes when the desires of our heart change.\u201d\u00a0 So, we want\u2014we wanted to write this book because we want to show people that the path to true change that honors Jesus Christ is the path through the heart. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, speaking of compassion, what if there is a listener\u2014and I would imagine there\u2019s more than one\u2014who is saying right now: \u201cYou just don\u2019t understand. This is my orientation. This is my identity. It has been mine since I was a child. I\u2019ve never known anything other than this.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u201cI didn\u2019t ask for it. I don\u2019t want it. I don\u2019t like it, but it just\u2014it is what it is.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Heath: <\/strong>I would say, \u201cThere are things about your struggle that I don\u2019t understand, and there are things about your struggle I do understand.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s true\u2014I have not ever personally struggled with homosexual desire; but more profoundly than that, I have struggled with heterosexual desire. I know what it is. Everybody listening to this\u2014<em>everybody<\/em> knows what it is to love things God hates and to hate things that God loves. And <em>none<\/em> of us choose them. None of us chose to be prideful or to be lustful in a heterosexual way. We <em>all<\/em> struggle with sins that go down deep into who we are. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd what we need to do is: \u201cHey, regardless of what your particular manifestation of a sinful struggle is, we need to point people to Jesus Christ who, by His power\u2014through His resurrection, through His ascension to heaven, through His death on the cross\u2014He takes care of all that is wrong with us as we trust in Him.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Okay. So, here\u2019s what I\u2019d like to do\u2014and we\u2019re talking, by the way, with Heath Lambert and Denny Burk, who have written a book called <em>Transforming Homosexuality: What the Bible Says about Sexual Orientation and Change<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019d like to go to the campus of Boyce College. You guys both have association\u2014you know the campus \/ you know your way around there. There are a couple of freshman young women at Boyce\u2014and this is all hypothetical \/ I\u2019m just making this up, but let\u2019s just take this where it is\u2014and they\u2019ve cultivated a friendship over the first semester. It\u2019s now the second semester. They are out just walking along the campus. One of the young ladies turns to the other and says, \u201cThere is something I think I need to tell you\u2014something that I have struggled with\u2014and I\u2019ve not told anybody. I think, based on our friendship, I can just confess this to you.\u201d\u00a0 <br><br>And the other one says, \u201cWhat is it?\u201d\u00a0 She says: \u201cI am gay. I\u2019ve never wanted this. This is who I am, and I\u2019m here at Boyce. I love Jesus, and I want to follow Jesus. I was in Dr. Lambert\u2019s class the other day, and he was talking about this kind of stuff. I just thought, \u2018Well, if I confess this to anybody, it\u2019s just\u2014there\u2019s going to be shame because I should be conquering my desires, and I don\u2019t know what to do with this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201c\u2019I don\u2019t know that I\u2019ll ever conquer this. I just think this is who I am.\u2019\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019re the other girl in that conversation. Who wants to tackle\u2014are you ready to jump in on this one, Denny?\u00a0 <br><br><strong>Denny: <\/strong>Sure; yes. Well, first thing I want to say is\u2014if this is a Christian person, who is struggling with same-sex attractions, I want to say to them: \u201cListen, your life is hidden with Christ in God; and your identity is defined by Jesus. The culture is the one telling you that your identity is the sum total of your fallen sexual desires\u2014that\u2019s the <em>culture\u2019s<\/em> message. That\u2019s not the gospel message. We are <em>not<\/em> reduced to, as persons, the sum total of our fallen sexual attractions. We were made for a purpose\u2014God made us for a purpose. Sometimes, our sinful attractions are opposed to that purpose; but the grace of Jesus can change those things.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>And I want to say to that young lady, if I\u2019m her friend: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cI\u2019m going to walk with you and help you so that you can learn faithful repentance and see real transformation in your life. And look, this may be a difficult struggle for a long time, but I\u2019m going to be there with you. We\u2019re going to do this together.\u201d The next thing I\u2019d want to say is, \u201cYou need to be involved in a church that\u2019s biblical and that will love you and that will provide you the community you need to walk in faithfulness.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>There\u2019s a reason I picked Boyce College for this illustration because you\u2019ve got quality young men and women. I\u2019m assuming this young woman loves Jesus. She\u2019s going to church. She loves the Bible. This is\u2014she\u2019s never told this to anybody. She\u2019s now telling it to her friend. She says, \u201cThis is\u2014you\u2019re telling me I need to repent, and it just made me feel terrible because I didn\u2019t pick this for myself!\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Heath: <\/strong>Yes. I would want to point a young woman like that to 1 John, Chapter 1. In \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t1 John, Chapter 1, the apostle is talking about walking in the light. And we, a lot of times, think about walking in the light as when we\u2019re living the life that is free of sin \/ when we\u2019re not struggling with anything\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014we\u2019re kind of up in the spiritual clouds. And 1 John 1 does not talk about walking in the light in that way. In fact, 1 John 1 says, \u201cIf you say you don\u2019t have sin, that\u2019s the way you know you\u2019re not walking in the light.\u201d\u00a0 People walk in the light, not when they are free of sin; they walk in the light when they confess the sin they\u2019ve got. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn that context, it says: \u201cIf we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.\u201d\u00a0 The Bible teaches us that sin is not always a thing we do \/ it\u2019s not always a thing we choose. Sometimes, that\u2019s true; but the Bible also teaches that sin is who we are\u2014sin runs deep. Psalm 51 says that we were <em>born<\/em> with sin \/ we were conceived in sin. The Bible <em>never<\/em> asks us to figure out where this came from or where it began. It says, \u201cHe who conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong><br><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Okay; here\u2019s my last question: Are you saying, \u201cIf I will just be faithful to repent this\u2014the feeling that I have and have had ever since as long as I can remember\u2014that\u2019s going to go away; and I will be rid of a desire that I feel today?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Denny: <\/strong>Nobody is saying that these things go away instantly. The way that we deal with <em>every<\/em> sin within the church is that\u2014the work of sanctification is a progressive work, over the course of a person\u2019s life, that\u2019s not perfected until you die and are raised up with Jesus. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat we\u2019re promising is: \u201cLook, the grace of Jesus is sufficient for this; but you\u2019re entering into a process. But we think that you can see real progress in these things and <em>real<\/em> holiness. And just because it feels natural to you shouldn\u2019t make you feel like that it is okay. Think about what the Apostle Paul said about desire in Romans 7.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRomans 7 is like a chapter-long meditation on the tenth commandment, which is the desire command, which includes \u201cDon\u2019t desire sinful sex.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe talks about this coveting; but he says, when he saw the command, it just made coveting \/ it made the desiring for bad things just well up within him. And he said in Romans 7:21, \u201cI find, then, the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good,\u201d\u2014which means, even when you\u2019re a Christian, there are going to be, from time to time, things that spontaneously come up from your heart that you don\u2019t remember inviting to come in. They are just <em>there<\/em> because we are <em>not<\/em> on the other side of glory yet. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere are going to be things that bubble up in your heart. When you feel them\u2014maybe, it\u2019s covetousness; maybe, it\u2019s pride; maybe, it\u2019s same-sex attraction \/ whatever it is\u2014if it is a sinful desire, at that moment, you need to repent and turn from it, whether you remember choosing it or not. If it\u2019s a desire for something that God forbids, that\u2019s the issue. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And might that desire for somebody be something that they do battle with throughout their lifetime?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Heath: <\/strong>It might be; yes. And we want to say that. But we don\u2019t only want to say that because I really think the gospel is at stake in combating what the culture is saying. What the culture is saying is: \u201cYou can\u2019t change.\u201d\u00a0 And we want to say: \u201cYou know what?\u00a0 With really deeply-engrained sin, it might be a struggle that you have for the rest of your life; but Jesus really does choose to change some people completely in this life.\u201d\u00a0 And there are people\u2014the Bible talks about people in 1 Corinthians 6; but all people will experience progress, regardless of what that looks like, through the grace of Jesus. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>The role play we just listened to here\u2014where Bob had both of you guys coaching the young lady who is providing counsel to someone who is struggling with a sin \/ in this case, homosexuality\u2014that kind of role play ought to occur at your dinner table. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMake it a safe place to debate the issues of the day, but open the Bible and speak as these guys have <em>from<\/em> the Bible. Let it set the standard for what to believe and what to obey in this culture. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob: <\/strong>And here is where I think I may have blown it in the past. I\u2019d like you guys just to weigh in on this. I may have jumped to the book too quick. When somebody is in the midst of sharing a struggle, I may have jumped to the answer \/ to the solution\u2014to \u201cLet me help fix your problem,\u201d before I sat down and just said: \u201cI want to hear your heart. I want to enter into the suffering with you. I want to cry with you.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think some of us\u2014as Christians, in the midst of things like this\u2014we have not been as sympathetic, as empathetic, as kind, and as compassionate as we could have been. We\u2019ve gone right to: \u201cI know the verse!\u00a0 I can take you to it, and we can get this fixed and be on your way.\u201d\u00a0 This is where that truth, grace\u2014it\u2019s all got to come together; doesn\u2019t it?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Denny: <\/strong>Well, the Proverbs says, \u201cHe who gives an answer before he hears, it is a folly and a shame to him,\u201d which means\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014when you\u2019re talking to somebody who is having these struggles, listen to their story. Find out exactly what the nature of their struggle is. Not every person who is feeling these things is wishing to rebel against the Bible. They may be struggling because they know what the Bible says, and they want to have desires and attractions that match what the Bible says. They are just in the midst of this <em>horrible<\/em> conflict. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, you need to <em>listen<\/em> and learn what it is and don\u2019t treat them like they are the person marching in the pride parade because, a lot of times, that\u2019s not what you\u2019re dealing with. You\u2019re dealing with a person who\u2014especially if you\u2019re in your church\u2014you\u2019re dealing with a person who is trying to figure out how to follow Jesus and manage these alienating desires that they are feeling inside of themselves. So, <em>listen<\/em> to a person\u2019s story. By the way, listening to a person\u2019s story doesn\u2019t necessarily mean approving of it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Denny: <\/strong>You just need to hear it, and commiserate, and feel compassion, and then, as the Lord gives opportunities, speak truth into that, based on what you\u2019ve heard. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You know, when Jesus was confronting the Pharisees, who were about to stone the woman who had been caught in adultery, He didn\u2019t immediately rush to her sin and convict her of her sin. He protected her. He said, \u201cWho among you is going to cast the first stone?\u201d\u00a0 And He told her, \u201cNeither do I condemn you.\u201d\u00a0 Then, He told her, \u201cGo and sin no more.\u201d I think that order of protecting people and\u2014I think you said it rightly, Denny\u2014to listen carefully to \u201cWhat\u2019s the story?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I\u2019ll give you a quick example. I\u2019ve got a friend of mine whose brother has lived as a practicing homosexual for years and whose partner died recently\u2014unexpectedly. He said, \u201cSo, I texted him immediately: \u2018I just heard the news. I\u2019m so sorry.\u2019\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, there\u2019s an impulse in my friend to want to go in at that moment and try to address this issue; but he knew wisely: \u201cThis isn\u2019t the time. This isn\u2019t the place to get a hearing with my brother. I need to sit down with him and say, \u2018I\u2019m so sorry for what\u2019s going on with you.\u2019\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Heath: <\/strong>You know, one of the things I personally try to do in my life\u2014because look, we\u2019re going to be in a situation where we disagree with people on this. We\u2019re going to have to disagree with people in our family. We\u2019re going to disagree with our neighbors and people we work with. Sometimes, we\u2019re going to disagree with people because they are personally involved in the sins \/ sometimes, we\u2019ll disagree because they know someone who is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut my personal creed has been: \u201cEven when we disagree strongly about the rightness and the wrongness of this, and what the Bible has to say, I want this person\u2014I want to so care for them that they would walk away and be confounded that they could have a disagreement with somebody but also say, \u2018I\u2019ve never had anybody that was as kind and as gracious to me as that person was.\u2019\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis is: \u201cSpeak the truth and do it in love.\u201d\u00a0 It\u2019s not just the words we say; it\u2019s the way we say it. Christians need to be the kind of people who have rock-solid conviction, but also, a rock-solid commitment to our care for people so that folks would walk away and say, \u201cI disagree with them, but I\u2019ve <em>never<\/em> known somebody who loved me the way they did.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>But Heath, this is where the Christian community really doesn\u2019t get an \u201cF\u201d for faith on their report card for being kind. We\u2019re pretty good at playing the judgment card. We don\u2019t excel here. What would you say to the person who really has got to repent\u2014they tuned into this broadcast, thinking, \u201cOkay, here\u2019s some more good stuff to be able to build my judgment case of other people who are fallen.\u201d\u00a0 But we\u2019ve got our own repentance to deal with; don\u2019t we?\u2014in dealing with other people who are broken just like us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Heath: <\/strong>Yes, I think we need to repent any time we have spoken the truth but not done it in love. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSome people say, \u201cWell, I\u2019m just going to tell you the way it is!\u201d\u00a0 It\u2019s not a virtue in the Bible. In the Bible, a virtue is when you tell it the way it is, but you do that in love. And I think one of the ways we\u2019re going to get at that spot, as Christians, is when we realize that it\u2019s not <em>merely<\/em> homosexual persons who are broken; but we\u2019re all broken. A good friend of mine says, \u201cBecause of sin, none of us are sexually straight.\u201d\u00a0 So, if we can be honest and realize that we <em>all<\/em> need repentance because of sexual sin that we\u2019ve committed, either in heart or deed, that\u2019s going to change the way we approach other people who struggle. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And we\u2019ve got to think about this differently because it\u2019s not just the behavior\u2014it\u2019s the desire that we\u2019re talking about. It\u2019s what you guys talk about in the book, <em>Transforming Homosexuality<\/em>. And this is a book we\u2019ve got in our <em>FamilyLife<\/em> <em>Today<\/em> Resource Center. Our listeners can go to FamilyLifeToday.com if they\u2019re interested in getting a copy; or they can call 1-800-FL-TODAY and order a copy over the phone\u2014a good book for folks to highlight, meditate on, and really dig deep into this subject, Dennis, as they try to get their arms around what we believe and how we engage on this subject. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And it\u2019ll help you equip your children\u2014maybe, your adult children. You may want to call and order a couple for your kids, who are raising your grandkids. This is one of these issues that\u2019s not going to go away and demands a solid, compassionate, biblical, truth-speaking, and wrapped-in-love response. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, again, you can order it from us, online, on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com; or get a copy of the book when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, I know some of you have heard the news. I want to make sure the rest of you are in the know on this. We have recently had some friends of the ministry, who came to FamilyLife, and they told us a couple of things. First of all, they knew this was our 40<sup>th<\/sup> anniversary as a ministry, and they wanted to do something special to acknowledge that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSecondly, they knew that summertime is a challenging time for ministries like ours because, often, there is a decline in donations during the summer months while the expenses of running a ministry continue to be about the same. So, they said: \u201cWe\u2019d like to help you through the summer months. Here\u2019s what we\u2019ll do. We will make a donation to the ministry to match every donation you receive, during the month of May, up to a total of $350,000.\u201d\u00a0 In other words, they said, \u201cWe\u2019ll give you $350,000, but <em>only<\/em> <em>if<\/em> your listeners will match that amount.\u201d\u00a0 So, we\u2019re asking you to help us take advantage of their generosity by making a donation today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGo to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014make an online donation. Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation. Again, any donation you make this month is going to be matched, dollar for dollar, up to that total of $350,000. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, \u201cThanks,\u201d in advance, for helping us out with this if you are able. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we want to talk more about how we can represent Christ well on this issue, as His followers\u2014how we can be full of grace, full of love, full of truth, standing firm and yet warm and welcoming. What does that look like?\u00a0 We\u2019ll explore that more tomorrow with our guests Denny Burk and Heath Lambert. Hope you can be back for that as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["27.18M"],"filesize_raw":["28500047"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-304000.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-304000.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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Lambert and Denny Burk remind us that God wants all of our desires to conform to His will, including homosexual desires.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2016-05-17.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Many of us have had the experience of being in a conversation with someone talking about sexual sin or sexual behavior. We can see that, in ourselves, we were not full of both grace and truth in the midst of that conversation. Here\u2019s pastor and author Heath Lambert. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Heath: <\/strong>I think we need to repent any time we have spoken the truth but not done it in love. Some people will say, \u201cWell, I\u2019m just going to tell you the way it is!\u201d\u00a0 It\u2019s not a virtue in the Bible. In the Bible, a virtue is when you tell it the way it is, but you do that in love. And I think one of the ways we are going to get at that spot, as Christians, is when we realize that it\u2019s not <em>merely<\/em> homosexual persons who are broken\u2014but we\u2019re all broken. A good friend of mine says, \u201cBecause of sin, none of us are sexually straight.\u201d\u00a0 So, if we can be honest and realize that we <em>all<\/em> need repentance because of sexual sin that we\u2019ve committed, either in heart or in deed, that\u2019s going to change the way we approach other people who struggle. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, May 17<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. It is important that we hold firmly to the truth of Scripture in our convictions, but how we hold onto that truth is just as critical. We\u2019ll spend time thinking about that together today. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. Feel like we\u2019ve got a little bit of a heavy-weight battle going on. In one corner are the culture and my own passions, and in the other corner is the Bible. And in our culture today, there are a lot of people who are saying, \u201cI think the culture and my passions are stronger than \/ are more powerful than the Bible.\u201d\u00a0 At least, they are capitulating to that in a lot of different areas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>They are. There\u2019s not a parent who is listening to our broadcast that doesn\u2019t feel that boxing match, Bob. The culture is attempting to confuse, distort, and seduce our children. Yet, we\u2019re trying to uphold the Bible and help our children grapple with its teaching and ultimately determine what they should believe\u2014and that\u2019s called a conviction. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to introduce a couple of guys who have heroically written a book called <em>Transforming Homosexuality: What the Bible Says about Sexual Orientation<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And why do you say \u201cheroically\u201d?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, Bob! This culture punishes people. I\u2019ve had listeners write me and say: \u201cHow can I be such a bigot to hold to the teachings of Scripture and say that marriage is between a man and a woman?\u00a0 Why would you want to withhold happiness from other people? I don\u2019t get up in the morning, wanting to harm other people. I do what I do to help other people, and I think the greatest help in the world is found in the Bible \/ in the person of Christ.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd these guys do too. Dr. Heath Lambert and Dr. Denny Burk join us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. What about it, guys?\u00a0 Have you guys had any pushback?\u00a0 I would say you guys have probably had some pushback from the community of faith\u2014have you?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Heath: <\/strong>Oh, yes. The most trouble I\u2019ve ever been in, in my life, has been when I\u2019ve been talking about these issues. I\u2019ve been personally threatened. My children have been threatened because of simply taking a biblical position that homosexuality is a sin, like every other sin, and Jesus paid for it like every other sin. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>All because you are upholding what the Bible teaches about one of the more controversial issues in our culture. What about you, Denny?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Denny: <\/strong>I\u2019ve gotten all kinds of pushback over these things, but I think this isn\u2019t something that should surprise us. This is just what happens when the light hits the darkness, I believe. I don\u2019t think that Heath and I are claiming any special insight. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think it\u2019s just the Scripture. And when the Scripture comes in, it divides; right? I mean, it really does shed light on a situation. People, who don\u2019t like the light, fight against the light. So, we just have to get used to that. We\u2019re in a cultural situation where we\u2019re not going to get a ton of \u201c\u2018at a boys\u201d for following Jesus; but Jesus told us it would be that way. So, it shouldn\u2019t be surprising to us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, I want to try and do this with you guys because the book that you\u2019ve written, <em>Transforming Homosexuality<\/em>, is a book that gets to the issue of desire. You\u2019re talking about the fact that it\u2019s not just homosexual behavior that is out of bounds for Christians. But if you find yourself attracted and you entertain that attraction, or even if you don\u2019t\u2014but it\u2019s persistent \/ it\u2019s there in your life\u2014that needs to change in you. That attraction \/ that very temptation should be different about you after a period of time of walking with Jesus; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s your hypothesis?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Denny: <\/strong>Yes, that\u2019s correct. And by the way, this isn\u2019t new. This is just what\u2014this is what we believe as Christians. The Ten Commandments: \u201cYou shall not commit adultery,\u201d\u2014seventh commandment. Tenth commandment: \u201cYou shall not desire your neighbor\u2019s wife.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Covet. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Denny: <\/strong>Covet\u2014and the word for covet there is just the same word for desire. So, the issue is\u2014even in the Ten Commandments, it\u2019s not just the not doing of the adultery\u2014\u201cDon\u2019t do it,\u201d\u2014you shouldn\u2019t desire it. Jesus was not reinventing the wheel in Matthew 5 when He says, \u201cYou\u2019ve heard that it was said, \u2018Do not commit adultery,\u2019 but I say to you whoever looks at his neighbor\u2019s wife has already committed adultery with her in his heart.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe was teaching us what the Ten Commandments meant all along for people, who had eyes to see and ears to hear\u2014that it\u2019s not just external behavior modification that the Lord is aiming for when He saves us and changes us. He\u2019s interested in reordering our desires\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014including our sexual desires. He wants them to be in conformity with His will. So, Jesus is saying that it <em>matters<\/em> what you desire. It <em>matters<\/em> what\u2019s going on in your heart, not just your behavior. And the Christian church\u2014we agree on that when it comes to the nature of heterosexual sin. We\u2019re trying to say, \u201cWe should apply this to homosexual sin as well.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>This book could be written about transforming materialism, transforming heterosexual lust, transforming gambling. It\u2019s all about the desires of our hearts that are turned toward evil. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Heath: <\/strong>That\u2019s right. We want to treat homosexuality and homosexual sin just like we treat every other sin. Our concern is that, out of a well-intended desire, to want to give people who struggle with homosexuality a break. They are looking at these people, who are saying: \u201cYou\u2019re not just saying my behavior is wrong\u2014you\u2019re saying I\u2019m wrong? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cYou\u2019re saying everything about my sexual desires is wrong?\u201d\u00a0 People hear that and they want to offer them a break. They want to give them a rest. So, they say, \u201cWell, maybe, not everything. Just don\u2019t do the behavior, and we\u2019re going to try to find some place to put these desires.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd what we want to say is: \u201cThe Christian church has <em>never<\/em> said that about any sin because the Bible doesn\u2019t say it.\u201d\u00a0 The Bible says, \u201cOur behavior changes when the desires of our heart change.\u201d\u00a0 So, we want\u2014we wanted to write this book because we want to show people that the path to true change that honors Jesus Christ is the path through the heart. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, speaking of compassion, what if there is a listener\u2014and I would imagine there\u2019s more than one\u2014who is saying right now: \u201cYou just don\u2019t understand. This is my orientation. This is my identity. It has been mine since I was a child. I\u2019ve never known anything other than this.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u201cI didn\u2019t ask for it. I don\u2019t want it. I don\u2019t like it, but it just\u2014it is what it is.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Heath: <\/strong>I would say, \u201cThere are things about your struggle that I don\u2019t understand, and there are things about your struggle I do understand.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s true\u2014I have not ever personally struggled with homosexual desire; but more profoundly than that, I have struggled with heterosexual desire. I know what it is. Everybody listening to this\u2014<em>everybody<\/em> knows what it is to love things God hates and to hate things that God loves. And <em>none<\/em> of us choose them. None of us chose to be prideful or to be lustful in a heterosexual way. We <em>all<\/em> struggle with sins that go down deep into who we are. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd what we need to do is: \u201cHey, regardless of what your particular manifestation of a sinful struggle is, we need to point people to Jesus Christ who, by His power\u2014through His resurrection, through His ascension to heaven, through His death on the cross\u2014He takes care of all that is wrong with us as we trust in Him.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Okay. So, here\u2019s what I\u2019d like to do\u2014and we\u2019re talking, by the way, with Heath Lambert and Denny Burk, who have written a book called <em>Transforming Homosexuality: What the Bible Says about Sexual Orientation and Change<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019d like to go to the campus of Boyce College. You guys both have association\u2014you know the campus \/ you know your way around there. There are a couple of freshman young women at Boyce\u2014and this is all hypothetical \/ I\u2019m just making this up, but let\u2019s just take this where it is\u2014and they\u2019ve cultivated a friendship over the first semester. It\u2019s now the second semester. They are out just walking along the campus. One of the young ladies turns to the other and says, \u201cThere is something I think I need to tell you\u2014something that I have struggled with\u2014and I\u2019ve not told anybody. I think, based on our friendship, I can just confess this to you.\u201d\u00a0 <br><br>And the other one says, \u201cWhat is it?\u201d\u00a0 She says: \u201cI am gay. I\u2019ve never wanted this. This is who I am, and I\u2019m here at Boyce. I love Jesus, and I want to follow Jesus. I was in Dr. Lambert\u2019s class the other day, and he was talking about this kind of stuff. I just thought, \u2018Well, if I confess this to anybody, it\u2019s just\u2014there\u2019s going to be shame because I should be conquering my desires, and I don\u2019t know what to do with this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201c\u2019I don\u2019t know that I\u2019ll ever conquer this. I just think this is who I am.\u2019\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019re the other girl in that conversation. Who wants to tackle\u2014are you ready to jump in on this one, Denny?\u00a0 <br><br><strong>Denny: <\/strong>Sure; yes. Well, first thing I want to say is\u2014if this is a Christian person, who is struggling with same-sex attractions, I want to say to them: \u201cListen, your life is hidden with Christ in God; and your identity is defined by Jesus. The culture is the one telling you that your identity is the sum total of your fallen sexual desires\u2014that\u2019s the <em>culture\u2019s<\/em> message. That\u2019s not the gospel message. We are <em>not<\/em> reduced to, as persons, the sum total of our fallen sexual attractions. We were made for a purpose\u2014God made us for a purpose. Sometimes, our sinful attractions are opposed to that purpose; but the grace of Jesus can change those things.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>And I want to say to that young lady, if I\u2019m her friend: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cI\u2019m going to walk with you and help you so that you can learn faithful repentance and see real transformation in your life. And look, this may be a difficult struggle for a long time, but I\u2019m going to be there with you. We\u2019re going to do this together.\u201d The next thing I\u2019d want to say is, \u201cYou need to be involved in a church that\u2019s biblical and that will love you and that will provide you the community you need to walk in faithfulness.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>There\u2019s a reason I picked Boyce College for this illustration because you\u2019ve got quality young men and women. I\u2019m assuming this young woman loves Jesus. She\u2019s going to church. She loves the Bible. This is\u2014she\u2019s never told this to anybody. She\u2019s now telling it to her friend. She says, \u201cThis is\u2014you\u2019re telling me I need to repent, and it just made me feel terrible because I didn\u2019t pick this for myself!\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Heath: <\/strong>Yes. I would want to point a young woman like that to 1 John, Chapter 1. In \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t1 John, Chapter 1, the apostle is talking about walking in the light. And we, a lot of times, think about walking in the light as when we\u2019re living the life that is free of sin \/ when we\u2019re not struggling with anything\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014we\u2019re kind of up in the spiritual clouds. And 1 John 1 does not talk about walking in the light in that way. In fact, 1 John 1 says, \u201cIf you say you don\u2019t have sin, that\u2019s the way you know you\u2019re not walking in the light.\u201d\u00a0 People walk in the light, not when they are free of sin; they walk in the light when they confess the sin they\u2019ve got. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn that context, it says: \u201cIf we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.\u201d\u00a0 The Bible teaches us that sin is not always a thing we do \/ it\u2019s not always a thing we choose. Sometimes, that\u2019s true; but the Bible also teaches that sin is who we are\u2014sin runs deep. Psalm 51 says that we were <em>born<\/em> with sin \/ we were conceived in sin. The Bible <em>never<\/em> asks us to figure out where this came from or where it began. It says, \u201cHe who conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong><br><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Okay; here\u2019s my last question: Are you saying, \u201cIf I will just be faithful to repent this\u2014the feeling that I have and have had ever since as long as I can remember\u2014that\u2019s going to go away; and I will be rid of a desire that I feel today?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Denny: <\/strong>Nobody is saying that these things go away instantly. The way that we deal with <em>every<\/em> sin within the church is that\u2014the work of sanctification is a progressive work, over the course of a person\u2019s life, that\u2019s not perfected until you die and are raised up with Jesus. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat we\u2019re promising is: \u201cLook, the grace of Jesus is sufficient for this; but you\u2019re entering into a process. But we think that you can see real progress in these things and <em>real<\/em> holiness. And just because it feels natural to you shouldn\u2019t make you feel like that it is okay. Think about what the Apostle Paul said about desire in Romans 7.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRomans 7 is like a chapter-long meditation on the tenth commandment, which is the desire command, which includes \u201cDon\u2019t desire sinful sex.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe talks about this coveting; but he says, when he saw the command, it just made coveting \/ it made the desiring for bad things just well up within him. And he said in Romans 7:21, \u201cI find, then, the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good,\u201d\u2014which means, even when you\u2019re a Christian, there are going to be, from time to time, things that spontaneously come up from your heart that you don\u2019t remember inviting to come in. They are just <em>there<\/em> because we are <em>not<\/em> on the other side of glory yet. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere are going to be things that bubble up in your heart. When you feel them\u2014maybe, it\u2019s covetousness; maybe, it\u2019s pride; maybe, it\u2019s same-sex attraction \/ whatever it is\u2014if it is a sinful desire, at that moment, you need to repent and turn from it, whether you remember choosing it or not. If it\u2019s a desire for something that God forbids, that\u2019s the issue. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And might that desire for somebody be something that they do battle with throughout their lifetime?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Heath: <\/strong>It might be; yes. And we want to say that. But we don\u2019t only want to say that because I really think the gospel is at stake in combating what the culture is saying. What the culture is saying is: \u201cYou can\u2019t change.\u201d\u00a0 And we want to say: \u201cYou know what?\u00a0 With really deeply-engrained sin, it might be a struggle that you have for the rest of your life; but Jesus really does choose to change some people completely in this life.\u201d\u00a0 And there are people\u2014the Bible talks about people in 1 Corinthians 6; but all people will experience progress, regardless of what that looks like, through the grace of Jesus. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>The role play we just listened to here\u2014where Bob had both of you guys coaching the young lady who is providing counsel to someone who is struggling with a sin \/ in this case, homosexuality\u2014that kind of role play ought to occur at your dinner table. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMake it a safe place to debate the issues of the day, but open the Bible and speak as these guys have <em>from<\/em> the Bible. Let it set the standard for what to believe and what to obey in this culture. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob: <\/strong>And here is where I think I may have blown it in the past. I\u2019d like you guys just to weigh in on this. I may have jumped to the book too quick. When somebody is in the midst of sharing a struggle, I may have jumped to the answer \/ to the solution\u2014to \u201cLet me help fix your problem,\u201d before I sat down and just said: \u201cI want to hear your heart. I want to enter into the suffering with you. I want to cry with you.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think some of us\u2014as Christians, in the midst of things like this\u2014we have not been as sympathetic, as empathetic, as kind, and as compassionate as we could have been. We\u2019ve gone right to: \u201cI know the verse!\u00a0 I can take you to it, and we can get this fixed and be on your way.\u201d\u00a0 This is where that truth, grace\u2014it\u2019s all got to come together; doesn\u2019t it?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Denny: <\/strong>Well, the Proverbs says, \u201cHe who gives an answer before he hears, it is a folly and a shame to him,\u201d which means\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014when you\u2019re talking to somebody who is having these struggles, listen to their story. Find out exactly what the nature of their struggle is. Not every person who is feeling these things is wishing to rebel against the Bible. They may be struggling because they know what the Bible says, and they want to have desires and attractions that match what the Bible says. They are just in the midst of this <em>horrible<\/em> conflict. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, you need to <em>listen<\/em> and learn what it is and don\u2019t treat them like they are the person marching in the pride parade because, a lot of times, that\u2019s not what you\u2019re dealing with. You\u2019re dealing with a person who\u2014especially if you\u2019re in your church\u2014you\u2019re dealing with a person who is trying to figure out how to follow Jesus and manage these alienating desires that they are feeling inside of themselves. So, <em>listen<\/em> to a person\u2019s story. By the way, listening to a person\u2019s story doesn\u2019t necessarily mean approving of it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Denny: <\/strong>You just need to hear it, and commiserate, and feel compassion, and then, as the Lord gives opportunities, speak truth into that, based on what you\u2019ve heard. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You know, when Jesus was confronting the Pharisees, who were about to stone the woman who had been caught in adultery, He didn\u2019t immediately rush to her sin and convict her of her sin. He protected her. He said, \u201cWho among you is going to cast the first stone?\u201d\u00a0 And He told her, \u201cNeither do I condemn you.\u201d\u00a0 Then, He told her, \u201cGo and sin no more.\u201d I think that order of protecting people and\u2014I think you said it rightly, Denny\u2014to listen carefully to \u201cWhat\u2019s the story?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I\u2019ll give you a quick example. I\u2019ve got a friend of mine whose brother has lived as a practicing homosexual for years and whose partner died recently\u2014unexpectedly. He said, \u201cSo, I texted him immediately: \u2018I just heard the news. I\u2019m so sorry.\u2019\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, there\u2019s an impulse in my friend to want to go in at that moment and try to address this issue; but he knew wisely: \u201cThis isn\u2019t the time. This isn\u2019t the place to get a hearing with my brother. I need to sit down with him and say, \u2018I\u2019m so sorry for what\u2019s going on with you.\u2019\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Heath: <\/strong>You know, one of the things I personally try to do in my life\u2014because look, we\u2019re going to be in a situation where we disagree with people on this. We\u2019re going to have to disagree with people in our family. We\u2019re going to disagree with our neighbors and people we work with. Sometimes, we\u2019re going to disagree with people because they are personally involved in the sins \/ sometimes, we\u2019ll disagree because they know someone who is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut my personal creed has been: \u201cEven when we disagree strongly about the rightness and the wrongness of this, and what the Bible has to say, I want this person\u2014I want to so care for them that they would walk away and be confounded that they could have a disagreement with somebody but also say, \u2018I\u2019ve never had anybody that was as kind and as gracious to me as that person was.\u2019\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis is: \u201cSpeak the truth and do it in love.\u201d\u00a0 It\u2019s not just the words we say; it\u2019s the way we say it. Christians need to be the kind of people who have rock-solid conviction, but also, a rock-solid commitment to our care for people so that folks would walk away and say, \u201cI disagree with them, but I\u2019ve <em>never<\/em> known somebody who loved me the way they did.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>But Heath, this is where the Christian community really doesn\u2019t get an \u201cF\u201d for faith on their report card for being kind. We\u2019re pretty good at playing the judgment card. We don\u2019t excel here. What would you say to the person who really has got to repent\u2014they tuned into this broadcast, thinking, \u201cOkay, here\u2019s some more good stuff to be able to build my judgment case of other people who are fallen.\u201d\u00a0 But we\u2019ve got our own repentance to deal with; don\u2019t we?\u2014in dealing with other people who are broken just like us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Heath: <\/strong>Yes, I think we need to repent any time we have spoken the truth but not done it in love. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSome people say, \u201cWell, I\u2019m just going to tell you the way it is!\u201d\u00a0 It\u2019s not a virtue in the Bible. In the Bible, a virtue is when you tell it the way it is, but you do that in love. And I think one of the ways we\u2019re going to get at that spot, as Christians, is when we realize that it\u2019s not <em>merely<\/em> homosexual persons who are broken; but we\u2019re all broken. A good friend of mine says, \u201cBecause of sin, none of us are sexually straight.\u201d\u00a0 So, if we can be honest and realize that we <em>all<\/em> need repentance because of sexual sin that we\u2019ve committed, either in heart or deed, that\u2019s going to change the way we approach other people who struggle. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And we\u2019ve got to think about this differently because it\u2019s not just the behavior\u2014it\u2019s the desire that we\u2019re talking about. It\u2019s what you guys talk about in the book, <em>Transforming Homosexuality<\/em>. And this is a book we\u2019ve got in our <em>FamilyLife<\/em> <em>Today<\/em> Resource Center. Our listeners can go to FamilyLifeToday.com if they\u2019re interested in getting a copy; or they can call 1-800-FL-TODAY and order a copy over the phone\u2014a good book for folks to highlight, meditate on, and really dig deep into this subject, Dennis, as they try to get their arms around what we believe and how we engage on this subject. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And it\u2019ll help you equip your children\u2014maybe, your adult children. You may want to call and order a couple for your kids, who are raising your grandkids. This is one of these issues that\u2019s not going to go away and demands a solid, compassionate, biblical, truth-speaking, and wrapped-in-love response. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, again, you can order it from us, online, on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com; or get a copy of the book when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, I know some of you have heard the news. I want to make sure the rest of you are in the know on this. We have recently had some friends of the ministry, who came to FamilyLife, and they told us a couple of things. First of all, they knew this was our 40<sup>th<\/sup> anniversary as a ministry, and they wanted to do something special to acknowledge that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSecondly, they knew that summertime is a challenging time for ministries like ours because, often, there is a decline in donations during the summer months while the expenses of running a ministry continue to be about the same. So, they said: \u201cWe\u2019d like to help you through the summer months. Here\u2019s what we\u2019ll do. We will make a donation to the ministry to match every donation you receive, during the month of May, up to a total of $350,000.\u201d\u00a0 In other words, they said, \u201cWe\u2019ll give you $350,000, but <em>only<\/em> <em>if<\/em> your listeners will match that amount.\u201d\u00a0 So, we\u2019re asking you to help us take advantage of their generosity by making a donation today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGo to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014make an online donation. Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation. Again, any donation you make this month is going to be matched, dollar for dollar, up to that total of $350,000. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, \u201cThanks,\u201d in advance, for helping us out with this if you are able. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we want to talk more about how we can represent Christ well on this issue, as His followers\u2014how we can be full of grace, full of love, full of truth, standing firm and yet warm and welcoming. What does that look like?\u00a0 We\u2019ll explore that more tomorrow with our guests Denny Burk and Heath Lambert. Hope you can be back for that as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/304000","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=304000"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=304000"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=304000"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=304000"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=304000"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=304000"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=304000"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}