{"id":303814,"date":"2016-01-04T12:00:00","date_gmt":"2016-01-04T17:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/thriving-in-babylon\/"},"modified":"2016-01-04T12:00:00","modified_gmt":"2016-01-04T17:00:00","slug":"thriving-in-babylon","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/thriving-in-babylon\/","title":{"rendered":"Thriving in Babylon"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>guest: Larry Osborne | Series: Engaging the Culture | As believers, what is our role in the culture? Larry Osborne, senior pastor at North Coast Church in Vista, California, calls believers to leave behind our &#8220;scaredy cat&#8221; Christianity and remember who the Bible says\u00a0we really are-pilgrims in a foreign land. He reminds us that we can remain faithful and victorious in a godless culture, just like Daniel did in Babylon. Larry shares the best way to influence those who don&#8217;t share our faith.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Larry Osborne calls believers to leave behind our &#8220;scaredy cat&#8221; Christianity and remember the Bible says\u00a0we are pilgrims in a foreign land. He shares the best way to influence those who don&#8217;t share our faith.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2016-01-04.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"24.48M","filesize_raw":"25665800","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2848,2821],"tags":[5937,5935,5936,5938],"podcast_series":[8120],"cwp_profile":[3312],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-303814","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cultural-issues","category-reaching-out","tag-cultural-christianity","tag-faith-in-the-bible","tag-how-to-share-the-gospel","tag-what-is-christianity","podcast_series-engaging-the-culture","cwp_profile-larry-osborne","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/303814\/thriving-in-babylon","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/303814\/thriving-in-babylon","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"dxiNyA544E\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/thriving-in-babylon\/\">Thriving in Babylon<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/thriving-in-babylon\/embed\/#?secret=dxiNyA544E\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Thriving in Babylon&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"dxiNyA544E\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Larry Osborne calls believers to leave behind our \"scaredy cat\" Christianity and remember the Bible says\u00a0we are pilgrims in a foreign land. He shares the best way to influence those who don't share our faith.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2016-01-04.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>As we begin a new year, we are increasingly aware that those of us who hold to a biblical worldview will be at odds with our culture. So, how do we deal with that, as individuals, and in our families, as parents?\u00a0 Here is pastor and author Larry Osborne. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>One of the things I\u2019d encourage parents to do is run through the Book of Daniel with their children with a different lens than we often use in Sunday school. I always sort of grew up thinking Daniel was an adventure story for children, but it\u2019s really a primer for adults about how to live in a godless culture. And from the very beginning, we have the ability to teach our kids the way that Daniel responded to all the situations around him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, January 4<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. There are a lot of lessons we can learn about being ambassadors for Christ by looking at how the Israelites lived during the time of the Babylonian captivity during Daniel\u2019s day. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ll explore all of that today. Stay tuned.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. You know, we have heard for years people talk about Europe becoming post-Christian. Do you think America is, today, post-Christian?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Let\u2019s ask our guest. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>That\u2019s a good thought!\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>He lives in Southern California. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And they may be more post-Christian than any place else? [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, you can see the country from there\u2014there\u2019s no doubt about it. [Laughter] Larry Osborne joins us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Larry, welcome to\u2014welcome to Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Larry: <\/strong>Thank you. It\u2019s a pleasure to be here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Glad to have you!\u00a0 What do you think about Bob\u2019s question?\u2014you\u2019re a pastor. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>Well, I definitely think we are much more like Europe than many of us think\u2014that it\u2019s much more of a post-Christian culture. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob: <\/strong>There are more people going to church every Sunday in America than go to church in Europe. So, there is still some fiber of church or spirituality that runs through the American culture; but it does feel like the ground is shifting under our feet as we live in America today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>Yes, I think that is a very important observation because my understanding and experience of the difference between Europe and here is the fact that we don\u2019t have a history of a state church\u2014pretty much means that we didn\u2019t have people that were just part of the church for <em>power<\/em>\u2014but they were part of the church because they were followers of Jesus and, at times, for cultural reasons. There is a big difference there. So, what we have is much stronger churches, I believe, here; but at the same time, the culture, as a whole, is completely biblically illiterate. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOut, where I live, if they pick up the Book of Job, for instance, they think it is Jobs because of Steve. [Laughter]\u00a0 They\u2019ve never heard of the trials of Job. Many of the things we kind of assume are part of the culture\u2014in the last 35 years or so\u2014have really disappeared because the children who were raised in that are now the people that are 30 to 40 years old\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014taking major reigns of leadership throughout our country, and businesses, and education, and everywhere else. So, it\u2019s very post-Christian that way. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, and the kids who are being born in America today\u2014you go out 30 years, and you wonder where we\u2019re headed; don\u2019t you?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>Absolutely\u2014yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And you are in the process of giving leadership to a lot of folks out on the west coast. You started the church back in 1980 that you continue to lead today\u2014North Coast Church in Vista, California. You\u2019ve grown that church to more than 11,000 people. It\u2019s been recognized as one of the ten most influential churches in America. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019ve raised your own family out there; and now, your three adult children are in the process of raising your four grandchildren in this era that Bob\u2019s discussing here. How are you coaching <em>them<\/em> to raise those children in this time?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>Well, I think one of the key things is we simply think like a missionary. If you go into the mission field, you go there and you say: \u201cYou know what?\u00a0 We are here to have <em>influence<\/em>,\u201d and \u201cWe are, also, here to infiltrate the culture, to understand the culture, to adapt to the culture; but our goal is to realize that we live <em>differently<\/em>, but we live <em>within<\/em> this new framework.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s pretty much what I try to do with my own children as we raised them\u2014is to say: \u201cWe are going to live in this culture. We\u2019re not going to get into our little holy huddle and run away; but at the same time, we are going to live a different life than what you are experiencing out there in your day-to-day experiences.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>One of the things that you point out in your book, <em>Thriving in Babylon<\/em>, is a lot of families today are operating out of fear. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>They are looking at what\u2019s happening that is coming against their marriages, their children, their grandchildren. I think, even within the Christian community, Larry\u2014I think we are way too fearful of what\u2019s taking place instead of being opportunistic as followers of Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>Yes, I call it \u201cScaredy Cat Christianity.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSometimes, it comes from those of us\u2014that are pastors, like myself, or sometimes, radio shows, or whatever\u2014because we talk about the things that are happening that are negative, and we want to put a stop to that tsunami of change that is taking place. So, at times, frankly, we even overstate what the problem is so that people are\u2014if you will\u2014aware of it. Well, the unintended consequence of that is people begin to live in fear. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf I was to go back to\u2014say, the Apostle Paul\u2014and have a sit down with him and complain to him about the wickedness of the culture today, I think he would look at me and go: \u201cWhat are you talking about?!\u00a0 Do you understand Rome?\u00a0 Do you understand I\u2019m in prison right now?\u00a0 It\u2019s not that I\u2019ve lost a tax deduction. I\u2019m in <em>prison<\/em> because of my faith.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe lose the perspective of being people that are <em>pilgrims<\/em> in a strange land. If we gain that once again\u2014and again, that\u2019s what I tried to do with my family and with the congregation I lead to help them understand: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cThis is an awesome privilege. God never puts us in any place that we are not capable of handling.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I think there are probably a good number of our listeners, who may not make the association that you want them to in the title of your book, <em>Thriving in Babylon<\/em>. Explain to them what was taking place in Babylon and why they, as followers of Christ today, are facing a similar set of circumstances. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>Well, Babylon is the actual personification of evil in the Bible. In Revelation, when the angels cry out, right before Jesus returns, they cry out, \u201c\u2019Fallen! Fallen is Babylon...\u2019\u201d\u00a0 Well, what\u2019s with that?\u00a0 Because Babylon is completely destroyed\u2014a prophecy it would never be rebuilt\u2014but in heaven, when they think about the evil of all evil, it\u2019s Babylon. It\u2019s not any of the things that we might think of in our day and age\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>\u2014as horrific. It\u2019s not ISIS\u2014as horrible as that situation is. It\u2019s not Nazi Germany. It\u2019s not Sin City. It\u2019s\u2014\u201c\u2019Fallen! Fallen, is Babylon [the great]...\u2019\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd here, a young man named Daniel found himself in a place called Babylon, not of his own doing; and yet, he was able to lead\u2014as you read through that book\u2014<em>three<\/em> national revivals of people seeing the glory of the true God in the midst of a Babylon. So, as we\u2019re becoming more and more like Babylon, my concern is we\u2019ve become less and less like Daniel. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob: <\/strong>And the thing about Babylon\u2014it was not just morally corrupt. It\u2019s a godless culture. Well, I say godless\u2014they had all kinds of gods that were pagan gods that they worshipped but nothing to do with the one true God at all; right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>It was the epitome of evil: \u201c\u2019Fallen! Fallen, is Babylon\u2026\u2019\u201d When Jesus returns, that\u2019s what the angels talk about whenever they talk about evil personified. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>If you think about Daniel\u2014if there has ever been anyone who typified someone who faced down his fear and was a courageous follower of God in his day, it would certainly be him. I mean, the stories of this young man\u2014of what he did at early ages in his life are remarkable. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>Yes, they are amazing to me. And one of the things I\u2019d encourage parents to do is run through the Book of Daniel with their children with a different lens than we often use in Sunday school. I always sort of grew up thinking Daniel was an adventure story for children, but it\u2019s really a primer for adults about how to live in a godless culture. And from the very beginning, we have the ability to teach our kids the way that Daniel responded to all the situations around him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the things I <em>love<\/em> is the very opening of the Book of Daniel. He says something that no one ever pointed out to me\u2014and it was that, in the third year of King Jehoiakim, <em>God<\/em> gave Jerusalem over to Nebuchadnezzar. So, before he starts his story, he says, \u201cNot the foundation \/ but the cornerstone you need to understand of everything that\u2019s going to follow is that I believe God\u2019s in control of who is in control.\u201d That changed <em>everything<\/em> about the way Daniel interfaced with his culture \/ his captors\u2014evil Nebuchadnezzar\u2014and all that was around it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>It is hard for us to look at a passage like Romans 13\u2014which talks about the fact that God is over government, and God appoints leaders, and God puts people in place\u2014and we think, \u201cThat can\u2019t mean that leader.\u201d\u00a0 But that\u2019s what the Bible says; isn\u2019t it?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>Yes, it does. There are times and places\u2014many of them, where I wonder, \u201cGod, what are You up to?\u201d\u00a0 But last I looked, I\u2019m not His consultant\u2014He\u2019s my God. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And as you write your book, you talk about how Daniel suffered; but he suffered for doing what was <em>right<\/em>, not for doing what was wrong. And you talk about how the innocent are going to suffer <em>along<\/em> with the guilty. I think, today, as we train our children and as we, as adults, engage in this culture and attempt to stand for Jesus Christ, we\u2019re going to have to learn what it means to suffer for doing the right thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>Yes; Peter says, \u201cDo not think it a strange thing when you go through a fiery ordeal\u2026\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut let\u2019s be honest\u2014when any of us personally faces a fiery ordeal, we suddenly step back and go, \u201cWhere\u2019s God?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHere I am, a pastor, with all the years of being a shepherd, and studying the Bible, and all that\u2014when my wife came down with some cancer \/ when we faced a financial meltdown, at one point in our lives\u2014immediately, my first response is, \u201cGod, what\u2019s up with that?\u201d\u00a0 So, we <em>constantly<\/em> need to be reminded that, on this side of heaven, that suffering is a part of the deal. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd those of us that don\u2019t experience a lot of it\u2014or when we\u2019re in a time of history where the persecution \/ or a place where it\u2019s minimal\u2014that what we are\u2014is blessed. This is not the <em>normative<\/em> situation. It\u2019s just a\u2014it\u2019s a blessing of God and <em>enjoy<\/em> it, but don\u2019t <em>panic<\/em> if there comes a change. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>One of my favorite quotes I give to single women, I think, is one that relates to followers of Christ today in the circumstances that we are facing. Martyn Lloyd-Jones said this\u2014he said, \u201cFaith is the refusal to panic.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think there are a lot of moms and dads who want to protect their children from evil\u2014that\u2019s not wrong. <em>Absolutely<\/em>, they\u2019ve got to protect their children; but they shouldn\u2019t wring their hands and rail against the culture because this is where God has planted you to be a difference-maker. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes, but what do you do, if you are a mom or a dad, and you\u2019re sending your son off to second grade and you just read in the paper that they\u2019re going to start teaching kids in second grade about all kinds of gender-related stuff that\u2019s non-biblical \/ stuff that doesn\u2019t match your worldview. You can see where a parent gets a little alarmed: \u201cWe\u2019re sending Johnny off to school, and he\u2019s going to come home indoctrinated with something we don\u2019t believe!\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>That\u2019s part of a problem where we have given over to other people the spiritual growth of our children. We expect our schools to educate them \/ the church youth group to lead them to Jesus and grow them up. As a parent, it is my job. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy kids actually faced that exact same thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, I\u2019m a pastor in a large church. I am a pastor\u2014so they were almost in a holy huddle. So, we chose to send them to a public school for that\u2014and I realize each family has to figure out what God\u2019s call is, whether it\u2019s homeschool, Christian school, or public school\u2014but we sent them to a public school that certainly didn\u2019t necessarily share the values. But it was an incredible opportunity for me, when they would come home with different things, to say: \u201cThat\u2019s what many people think, but <em>here\u2019s<\/em> what truth is. These people aren\u2019t our enemies. These are people we have been called to love and to influence.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Give our listeners an illustration of something that did happen with your kids coming home from school\u2014because we did the same thing. We homeschooled to about the fourth or fifth grade; and then, we put them in public school. It gave us <em>enormous<\/em> opportunities to speak into the moral uprightness of that school\u2014to speak to the principal \/ to the teachers\u2014but to do it in a winsome way. And it was around all kinds of issues; but I\u2019m wondering\u2014in Southern California, how did you face that?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>I think, particularly, one time, there was a movie shown that was a movie we would never let our kids see. They came home, and that movie had been shown. It wasn\u2019t, \u201cWe\u2019re going to show it,\u201d\u2014it had been shown. My kids\u2014I could just see the relief when they let us know that. We didn\u2019t overreact because the last thing a kid wants is for me to suddenly be running to the school, or to the newspaper, or whatever and embarrassing them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, we just sat down and said: \u201cYou know what?\u00a0 Here is why we think that was a bad decision. Here\u2019s what I see is wrong with that particular movie,\u201d\u2014and at the same time, saying\u2014\u201cYou know what?\u00a0 People make mistakes. Our job is not to go on warfare because we\u2019re not at <em>war<\/em>. We\u2019re in the <em>persuasion<\/em> business.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, I used younger terms than \u201cpersuasion business\u201d; but we had those kinds of experiences all the time\u2014teaching on sexuality \/ teaching on politics\u2014it was completely different than what I would tell my kids. And it just, each time, became a great opportunity to say, \u201cYou know, a lot of people think that way.\u201d\u00a0 And here is something I always wanted to teach them: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cThe people who believe differently than we do are not <em>stupid<\/em> or evil. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>\u201cThey are coming at it from their experiences. So, let\u2019s look at it this way,\u201d\u2014and not that everybody is right\u2014but if I could teach them to not demonize their opponents, then, we have a chance to win them over. That was one of the most important things\u2014that I wanted to raise my children to <em>love<\/em> Jesus and have a <em>heart<\/em> for other people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>As you shared that story, I couldn\u2019t help but think of the time when one of our kids brought home a book that he was being required to read. We went, asked for a meeting with the English teacher, and affirmed her as being one of\u2014if not\u2014the top teacher in the school. We were attempting to do what you just described\u2014not only teach your child to stand up for what\u2019s right\u2014but also, in how you stand up and how you treat other people. We affirmed the dignity of that school teacher and just appealed to her\u2014to say, \u201cCan\u2019t you find another book for our son to read?\u00a0\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cThis is really inappropriate in some spots.\u201d We took our son with us into that meeting. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>Great. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And it was really good from an accountability standpoint because I can become a little prophetic in standing up for justice and what\u2019s right; but with his eyes on both, Barbara and me, it was a good accountability for us, as parents, wanting to train him to, not only stand for what\u2019s right, but also, in how we do it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>Well, you know, there is another side to this whole thing; and that is, part of our philosophy, at this point, was, \u201cI want my kids to experience these things when I\u2019m around to help them process it.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ve seen, over and over, parents that were so concerned that their kids would not be contaminated. They just don\u2019t realize\u2014there is going to come a time when you are not around. So, there is this sense of: \u201cI don\u2019t like these things, but they are out there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cSo let\u2019s discover them now, where I\u2019m close. I can speak some wisdom into it, and they can see I don\u2019t panic.\u201d\u00a0 Boy! That has paid <em>huge<\/em> dividends with my kids. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob<\/strong>: The way the two of you described interacting with people in authority\u2014teachers, school officials, or people in authority\u2014going respectfully \/ making an appeal\u2014really, similar to what Daniel did when he was told, \u201cYou\u2019re going to have to eat this diet,\u201d and it was not the diet that a Jewish boy was supposed to eat!\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>Absolutely. One of the things that fascinated me, when I put on the lens and said, \u201cI\u2019m going to read Daniel as an adult primer on how to live in a godless culture,\u201d all kinds of things I suddenly saw that I hadn\u2019t seen before. One was the level of respect that runs all the way through all of his relationships with wicked people. I believe it\u2019s the third chapter\u2014or fourth chapter, rather\u2014where Nebuchadnezzar is going to receive a judgment from God for his arrogance and evil. When Daniel tells him the interpretation of a dream, he doesn\u2019t say: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cMan! I\u2019ve been praying for this a long time. I am <em>so<\/em> happy to deliver this message!\u201d\u00a0 He says, \u201cO king, I wish it was anybody but you!\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAfter he\u2019s been thrown in the lions\u2019 den inappropriately, he doesn\u2019t scream at the guy who threw him in there\u2014he\u2019s just gracious. And there is an incredible model of being respectful. In <em>Thriving in Babylon<\/em>, I call it hope, humility, and wisdom; but humility is a nice word we can hide behind. But if you want to know what humility looks like in your house, and your interactions with your neighbors, it looks like respect. And if we want to teach our children to influence people\u2014and we, as parents, want to influence people\u2014they\u2019ve got to think we like them. Nobody has ever been influenced by somebody who didn\u2019t like them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThink about that in your own life. Whenever you meet somebody that you think looks down their nose at you, or doesn\u2019t respect you, or like you, you get defensive\u2014and so does the world out there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, let me ask you a question that puts you on the spot a little bit. You\u2019ve mentioned talk radio.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019ve got Fox News and you\u2019ve got MSNBC on different sides of the political spectrum. You watch them during the evening. Is that helping us learn how to thrive in Babylon?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>I don\u2019t really think so. In fact, when I find panicked Christians, I\u2019ll ask them to go on a diet because\u2014and it\u2019s a media diet. I say: \u201cI want you to start reading the Scriptures and what they say about the fact that we win. I don\u2019t have all the details of Revelation figured out\u2014some of my friends do\u2014[Laughter]\u2014but I do know this: Jesus is coming back and we win. So, if that\u2019s actually <em>true<\/em>, then, where\u2019s the panic coming from?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere\u2019s an old thing in the computer world\u2014GIGO\u2014garbage in \/ garbage out. There are plenty of sources that keep their ratings by keeping everybody afraid and aware of the <em>newest<\/em> little thing. And I\u2019m not saying there are not things to be concerned about\u2014there are <em>plenty<\/em> of things to be concerned about. But if I am just spending too much time listening and watching, then, my concern level is going to go up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI don\u2019t think everybody should go on a diet from those things, but I do think the people\u2014and I literally had some friends that, \u201cHow in the world do you live with joy in the midst of all of this?\u201d\u00a0 And I asked them, for six weeks, to go on an absolute diet of\u2014and I named some of the shows or whatever\u2014 \u201cJust stop listening, and let\u2019s talk.\u201d\u00a0 Six weeks later, he said: \u201cLarry, it\u2019s amazing. I\u2019m sleeping at night.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>I go, \u201cWell, because you are not taking a fear pill every night before you go to bed.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>But you still tune in occasionally; don\u2019t you?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>I don\u2019t, but I read a lot. So, it\u2019s not like I\u2019m living in another world. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Alright. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>So, no, you\u2019ve got to be <em>aware<\/em>; but there is a point at which your awareness causes you to almost start believing every conspiracy theory. I call it the crisis du jour. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSome of your listeners will remember Y2K and all the horrible things that were going to happen. And here\u2019s the problem with the crisis du jour\u2014I was running around, telling all my friends, \u201cNo, the world\u2019s not going to end at the year 2000 with all the computers, and cars, and planes crashing.\u201d\u00a0 But I couldn\u2019t prove my point until January 1<sup>st<\/sup> of the year 2000. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right. You still don\u2019t have a generator; do you?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Larry: <\/strong>No, I don\u2019t. [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>As you\u2019re speaking, I can\u2019t help but think of this verse for our listeners\u2014it\u2019s Matthew, Chapter 5, verse 14: \u201cYou are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do people light a lamp, and put it under a basket, but on a stand; and it give light to all in the house. In the same way,\u201d\u2014and this is the key phrase here\u2014\u201cIn the same way, let your light shine before others so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe challenge for us today is to be righteous hard-pursuing followers of Jesus Christ; but at the same time, to put on His kindness, His love, His compassion, and engage the culture at its points of need so that, when they see us standing for what\u2019s right\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014and I know this is true about your church, Larry \/ you shared some things before we came into the studio that\u2014they\u2019ll see your good works\u2014they\u2019ll see that you\u2019ve refurbished some schools in the Southern California area; and your church is not huddled up, pointing its finger outwardly at people who are sinful; but in essence, trying to pierce the darkness and offer the light that does give hope to all people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I just want to encourage moms and dads\u2014you are raising the next generation of messengers. Prepare them for the time that you\u2019re not going to see, but they will. They have to be ready to be moms and dads, someday, with a biblical approach to raising children. Even though their day will have different issues, they are going to be challenged as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, and I think what we\u2019re talking about here is that this is going to demand a new level of intentionality on the part of moms and dads. We\u2019re going to have to be <em>purposeful<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s where having resources\u2014like the book that Larry\u2019s written, called <em>Thriving in Babylon: Why Hope, Humility, and Wisdom Matter in a Godless Culture<\/em>. It\u2019s a book we\u2019ve got in our <em>FamilyLife<\/em> <em>Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can go, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com to request your copy of the book. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe also have information about Dr. Russell Moore\u2019s book, <em>Onward:<\/em>\u2014which is on the same subject\u2014<em>Engaging the Culture without Losing the Gospel<\/em>. These would be great books, by the way\u2014if you\u2019re in a small group at church\u2014great for you all to go through this material together and to talk about how you live this out in your city. Again, the books are available at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. It\u2019s 1-800-358-6329\u20141-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY,\u201d\u2014to request either the book, <em>Onward<\/em>, by Russell Moore or Larry Osborne\u2019s book, <em>Thriving in Babylon<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the reasons that we are encouraged, here at FamilyLife, in the midst of the cultural shift that is taking place\u2014we\u2019re encouraged to believe that all is not lost\u2014is because we hear from listeners, all the time, who say, \u201cWhat you guys are talking about, what you stand for, how you represent the Bible\u2014we\u2019re with you.\u201d\u00a0 They are cheering us on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, here at the end of 2015, we\u2019ve heard from a lot of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners who knew that we had a matching-gift offer going on. They called and said, \u201cWe want to be a part of that because we want to see that thrive in 2016.\u201d\u00a0 And we don\u2019t have the final numbers yet on whether all of that matching gift was met; but I just want you to know\u2014there is reason for hope, even as we see things shifting in our culture. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I want to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d to those of you who do support this ministry. We couldn\u2019t do it without you, and we\u2019re grateful for your financial support. Anytime you\u2019d like to make a donation, you can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and donate online; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014donate over the phone; or you can mail a donation to us at <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. And we do appreciate hearing from you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we\u2019re going to continue to look at lessons we can learn from the life of Daniel, living in Babylon, to figure out how we can represent Jesus in America in the 21<sup>st<\/sup> century. Hope you can tune in for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2016 FamilyLife. 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