{"id":303678,"date":"2015-09-28T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2015-09-28T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/marriage-in-light-of-eternity\/"},"modified":"2015-09-28T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2015-09-28T15:00:00","slug":"marriage-in-light-of-eternity","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/marriage-in-light-of-eternity\/","title":{"rendered":"Marriage in Light of Eternity"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Your marriage is just a small part of a bigger picture. Pastor Francis Chan and his wife, Lisa, happily reflect on their courtship and eventual marriage. The Chans remind listeners how important it is to find a spouse who loves the Lord so that together they can serve God with all their hearts.Show Notes and ResourcesMarriage Requires Humility<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Pastor Francis Chan and his wife, Lisa, remind listeners how important it is to find a spouse who loves the Lord so that together they can serve God with all their hearts.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2015-09-28.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"28.94M","filesize_raw":"30343053","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[2877,5820],"podcast_series":[7187],"cwp_profile":[],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-303678","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-uncategorized","tag-marriage","tag-marriage-for-the-glory-of-god","podcast_series-you-and-me-forever","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/303678\/marriage-in-light-of-eternity","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/303678\/marriage-in-light-of-eternity","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"3Ly7HVQT5z\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/marriage-in-light-of-eternity\/\">Marriage in Light of Eternity<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/marriage-in-light-of-eternity\/embed\/#?secret=3Ly7HVQT5z\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Marriage in Light of Eternity&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"3Ly7HVQT5z\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2015-09-28.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2015-09-28.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You\u2019ve heard the statistic that the divorce rate in the church is no different than the divorce rate outside of the church?\u00a0 Francis Chan says he\u2019s not buying it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Yes, I mean\u2014I really believe there has never been a divorce between two Spirit-filled believers. They are using stats of everyone who goes to church\u2014calls themselves a Christian\u2014which, man, that\u2019s what the Bible\u2014that\u2019s what Jesus says all the time: \u201cI know you say that you are a believer. You call Me, \u2018Lord\u2019; but why do you call Me, \u2018Lord,\u2019 when you don\u2019t do what I say?\u201d\u00a0 The whole book of 1 John is\u2014it doesn\u2019t matter that you <em>say<\/em> you know Him\u2014because you don\u2019t obey His commands, you are a liar. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, September 28<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. To make a marriage work, Francis and Lisa Chan say it takes more than two\u2014more than you and me. We\u2019ll explore that today. Stay tuned. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us on the Monday edition. We\u2019re down to the last three days of our FamilyLife Oneness Prayer Challenge. All during the month of September, we have been, not just encouraging husbands and wives to pray together each day, but we have been sending out prompts every day. Today, we\u2019re encouraging you to pray that, when you experience conflict in marriage, you would handle it with grace and with wisdom. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I\u2019ll just mention\u2014if you\u2019ve not been a part of the 30-day Oneness Prayer Challenge, you can start it in your marriage today. All you have to do is go to FamilyLifeToday.com and look for information about the Oneness Prayer Challenge. Sign up; and we\u2019ll send you, every day, a prayer prompt for the next 30 days because we think it\u2019s pretty important for married couples. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>Now, I\u2019ve got to be honest with you, Dennis. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI have always wanted to meet one of our guests today because I\u2019ve always wanted to meet the woman who could be married to Francis Chan; you know?\u00a0 [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You know\u2014yes, I\u2019ve wondered that as well. So, Lisa, welcome to the broadcast. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Lisa: <\/strong>Thank you very much. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You\u2019ve kind of wondered that, too, by now; haven\u2019t you?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>Yes. What did I get myself into?\u00a0 No. [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, he\u2019s a good man. Francis\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>Yes, he is!\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014welcome back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>We\u2019ve had you on the broadcast, and we have battled for\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014the soapbox in the middle of the table and the microphones as we\u2019ve talked about the Holy Spirit a number of years ago. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>But you guys have written a fresh book called <em>You and Me Forever<\/em>. It\u2019s subtitled: <em>Marriage in Light of Eternity<\/em>. Now, you may not know this; but our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage getaway begins talking about the glory of God \/ the transcendent purpose of marriage as God intended it. Couples are learning that marriage is about more than just \u201cyou and me.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob: <\/strong>And most people think it\u2019s about them; don\u2019t they?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Yes, marriage is just a small part of this bigger picture in Scripture. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>But be honest\u2014you didn\u2019t have the bigger picture when you went to Lisa and proposed; did you?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Francis: <\/strong>No, no, no\u2014not at all. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You thought it was about you two; didn\u2019t you?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Oh, yes\u2014absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Tell us how you guys met and tell us how he popped the question, Lisa. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Lisa: <\/strong>Well, I knew the worship pastor at church that Francis was working at, at the time. He and I had kind of grown up at the same church\u2014the worship pastor. So, he had me come over and sing. He, actually, is the one who started feeding both of us these lines of\u2014for me, it was: \u201cYou\u2019ve got to stop dating anyone else. Francis is the one for you.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Oh, so, it was an arranged marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>It really was. [Laughter]\u00a0 He was so confident\u2014Dan, we thank you still. So, I came over\u2014started going to the church a lot to play lead in their Christmas musical. Francis kind of found a way to ask me out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Yes, I asked if I could be a stage manager. I told\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014I was honest with the worship pastor: \u201cI don\u2019t really care about your play. I want to meet this girl.\u201d\u00a0 [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So, you paid off the guy\u2014Dan\u2014and told him to arrange the marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Oh, yes. He just gave me a little headset and said: \u201cGo. Meet her.\u201d\u00a0 [Laughter] Seriously, I had no responsibilities except to ask her out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, how did you\u2014how long after you asked her out before you proposed?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Well, we had to wait like five or six months because it took a while to convince her parents, but I was okay with that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>I was the youngest of five. So, it was a little bit of having a hard time letting go. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Yes. So, they said, \u201cNo,\u201d a couple of times to me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Really?!\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Oh, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So, you went to the dad\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Oh, yes\u2014asked for the blessing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014and he said\u2026?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>\u201cNope.\u201d [Laughter] I think my life\u2014my mindset of just doing anything for the Lord \/ going <em>anywhere<\/em> can be a little scary to parents. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And do you think your mom and dad were just a little worried about what this man might lead you into?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>Yes, I think they were a little bit scared. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, they didn\u2019t know him at all. So, it took a while to: \u201cLet\u2019s make sure we really know who he is because, maybe, he\u2019s crazy for God; or maybe, he\u2019s just crazy.\u201d\u00a0 [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So, how did you pop the question?\u00a0 Take us to the experience. Knowing Francis Chan, this can\u2019t be average. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>No, we were going to go waterskiing\u2014back then, people still waterskied\u2014[Laughter] \u2014with a bunch of friends. I had set up on this little island in the middle of the lake\u2014you know, nice little flowers, and music, and video camera\u2014everything else. So, she kind of knew, as we were walking up there; and it was playing our song, you know\u2014popped the question there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, I want to go back to the first year of the Chan marriage. I want to go all the way back to the starting point because you both loved God \/ you both were sold out to Him, but you realized that marriage looks different from one side of the altar than it looks from the other side of the altar; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Yes. You really do; but I will say, we were warned about so many things like: \u201cBe careful of this. First year is going to be tough. This is going to be crazy.\u201d\u00a0 And I seriously felt little to none of that. It was like a dream come true\u2014it really was\u2014like honeymoon\u2014on: \u201cWow!\u00a0 I can\u2019t believe I get to be with my best friend. We never have to say goodbye.\u201d\u00a0 It was a dream. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You clicked. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Oh, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You clicked together. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Immediately.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>What about you, Lisa?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>Yes, I would totally agree\u2014although, I am having a flashback of the time he made me so mad that I threw my shoe at the closet just to get a real loud bang out of it. There were moments of just total pride, and selfishness, and silliness that first year; but we kept waiting for the shoe to drop\u2014\u201cWhen is this going to feel so awful and terrible?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And the shoe didn\u2019t drop, but it did get thrown. [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>It did get thrown. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Did you throw it at him?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>It was not at him. It was specifically to make a very loud noise. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And what prompted the shoe throwing; do you remember?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>That\u2019s what\u2019s so funny\u2014my daughter was asking me that the other day. I said: \u201cHoney, I can\u2019t even tell you. I cannot remember, even slightly, what it was about.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Francis: <\/strong>It was probably something I said\u2014I was very sarcastic back then. [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob: <\/strong>As I\u2019m listening to you guys describe your first year\u2014Mary Ann and I would be very similar. We\u2014our first year, we didn\u2019t hit the hiccups. We kind of enjoyed being with one another\u2014just like you described. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I think it was probably\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014maybe, ten years into our marriage when I was getting ready to prepare for a small group meeting that was going to happen at our house. Couples were coming over, and we were going to start a new study about marriage. I was doing some prep work that afternoon\u2014I was reading through these passages and reading some of the stuff. It dawned on me that: \u201cOh! Marriage is supposed to be about God.\u201d\u00a0 We had said, as couple: \u201cWe want God to be at the center of our marriage. We want\u2026\u201d But there is a difference between having God at the center of your marriage and having marriage be about Him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDo you know what I\u2019m saying?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Francis: <\/strong>Yes; yes. Well, I mean, even in our marriage\u2014because we\u2019ve been married 21 years now\u2014and we\u2019ve, maybe, fought a dozen times in all of that time. Then, it\u2019s only for a couple of hours, if that. Part of what prompted us to write this book was, \u201cHow come we don\u2019t fight?\u201d\u00a0 We realized it\u2019s because we haven\u2019t been focused on each other\u2014I mean, from Day One. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe were three weeks into the marriage when I felt like the Lord asked me to start a church. This is nothing we\u2019d ever talked about\u2014and to look at my new wife and say: \u201cI feel like God wants me to do this. I know we never talked about it.\u201d So, we did what we were told not to do\u2014which: \u201cHey, don\u2019t get right into the ministry.\u201d\u00a0 Well, we\u2019re three weeks in\u2014going, \u201cGod wants me to start a church.\u201d For Lisa to go: \u201cYou know what?\u00a0 I believe God called me to just support you in whatever way you are going to lead our family. So, if that is what you think God wants us to do, let\u2019s go.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00 <\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, ever since the beginning, we\u2019ve been thinking about others and: \u201cHow do we minister to people?\u00a0 How do we reach our neighborhood?\u00a0 How do we reach our city?\u201d\u00a0 Because we\u2019ve both been on this mission together, it\u2019s taken us all around the world now. It hasn\u2019t just been about: \u201cHey, you and me\u2014you\u2019re not making me feel good \/ I\u2019m not making you feel good.\u201d\u00a0 It\u2019s about: \u201cHey, we\u2019re here for a purpose.\u201d\u00a0 As we\u2019ve <em>pursued<\/em> that, it\u2019s caused us to be so in love with each other. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Lisa, what did you think when he came up with this vision and it wasn\u2019t just a vision for him?\u00a0 It was also a transformational moment for you because he was going to need you to go do something you weren\u2019t necessarily planning on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>Yes, I think\u2014you know, it\u2019s so important for single women\/young girls to watch and see that the man they are interested in or the man that they are dating is really walking with the Lord\u2014because that gave me a lot of confidence to say: \u201cYou know what?\u00a0 I do trust God in you.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cI trust that He\u2019s showing you a plan\u2014put something on your heart. That\u2019s my role, then\u2014I\u2019m going to jump in. I\u2019m going to roll my sleeves up, and let\u2019s get to work. We need Sunday school teachers. We need to do a mid-week kids\u2019 program.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mean, we were doing so much stuff; but it was so fun. In a way, even though it was tiring, it was also just: \u201cWe love these people. Let\u2019s serve them. Let\u2019s do what God put on your heart.\u201d\u00a0 I was so drawn to him because he loved God in a way that was very different than a lot of the people I had been surrounded by in my own church setting. That is not to bad-mouth them, necessarily; but\u2014wow\u2014it was like the way Francis would teach and preach\u2014he had this fear of God and this <em>reverence<\/em> for the Word of God. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, before we got married, the best gift I have ever been given was this Bible that he gave to me a couple weeks before we got married. It had my married name inscribed on it\u2014it said, \u201cLisa Chan\u201d before I was Lisa Chan. And he wrote this whole letter inside of it to me: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cThis is what we are going to commit our lives to. I want to see you wear this Bible out.\u201d\u00a0 You know\u2014and just: \u201cWow! What a gift\u2014to have a husband with that kind of mindset\u201d; you know?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Francis, you believe that we have dumbed down marriage into this horizontal relationship of two people trying to make each other happy. What you and Lisa have written about, here, is that there is a transcendent purpose to marriage that is God-created\/God-imbedded. If we miss this, we miss life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Absolutely. You know, we tend to focus on certain passages in Scripture and not others. When you look at what the Bible says about marriage\u2014yes, Paul wrote Ephesians 5, but even that was really about Christ and the church\u2014but Paul, who wrote that, also wrote 1 Corinthians 7 [verses 29-31]\u2014which is: \u201cThis is what I mean, brothers, the appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none; and those who mourn, as though they were not mourning; those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing; those who buy as though they had no goods;\u201d\u2014\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014and he goes on\u2014\u201cfor the present form of this world is passing away.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe\u2019s saying: \u201cThose who have wives\u2014just live like you do not because there is something bigger here\u2014there is this mission. We\u2019ve got this brief time here on earth, and this is what we\u2019ve got to be about. The Bible does talk about a marriage, but the emphasis is this marriage of the Lamb and this eternal marriage that we\u2019re going to be in. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mean if we just sat and wrote down everything Jesus said\u2014every time He\u2014wrote down, \u201cHusband,\u201d or \u201cwife,\u201d or \u201cfamily\u201d\u2014just write down all those verses\u2014we\u2019d be shocked! I mean, the way He speaks about family is: \u201cI am so far beyond that. Yes, I created marriage. Yes, I created man and woman, and I want you to live this way. But the point of that is so that the world has a picture of this beautiful marriage that\u2019s going to happen one day,\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014and this picture of this beautiful Father that we have in heaven. We\u2019re just that shadow \/ we\u2019re just that glimpse\u2014but too often, in the church\u2014we make it <em>all<\/em> about <em>us<\/em>, and it\u2019s killing our marriages. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>A marriage that\u2019s operating under the authority of Scripture and attempting to live obediently under the Lordship of Christ \/ living under His authority\u2014even though they are doing it imperfectly\u2014should show God off to a lost world. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Amen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And I think it\u2019s going to be one of our most powerful witnessing tools in the Christian community, going forward. In fact, I think, in one of the chapters, Lisa, you wrote what would happen if marriages got it together and divorce was rare. <br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>Wouldn\u2019t that be <em>so<\/em> amazing to have the statistics be: \u201cWow! Those who belong to Christ \/ those who are following Christ\u2014their divorce rate is next to nothing.\u201d\u00a0 <em>That<\/em> is what would make sense, given what we know \/ what we believe\u2014that we have the power of the Holy Spirit. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s like\u2014you think of those times when the Apostles would say this: \u201cBrothers, this ought not to be,\u201d\u2014like that\u2019s what goes through our hearts: \u201cPeople \/ believers out there\u2014come on!\u00a0 This ought not to be. We\u2019ve got to rise above and recognize who we are. We are God\u2019s children, who have been given His Spirit. We can live out our lives in a very different way.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, the interesting thing is\u2014the statistics we\u2019ve all heard\u2014that marriage is the same in the church as it is outside the church. Well, that\u2019s true if \u201cin the church\u201d means, \u201cAsk a guy\u2014\u2018Are you a Christian?\u2019\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Amen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>But if you ask a guy: \u201cDo you go to church every week?\u00a0 Do you read your Bible?\u00a0 Do you pray together?\u201d\u2014now, all of a sudden, the marriage statistics are completely different because believers, who are walking with Christ, recognize, \u201cIt ought not to be,\u201d and they are living for something different. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Francis: <\/strong>Yes, I mean\u2014I really believe there has never been a divorce between two Spirit-filled believers. Never in history has there been two Spirit-filled people \/ people walking in the Spirit who have gotten divorced. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s impossible! There\u2019s only one Spirit. So, one person has to be just not walking with Him in order to leave. I completely agree with you\u2014they\u2019re using stats of everyone who goes to church or calls themselves a Christian\u2014which, man, that\u2019s what the Bible\u2014that\u2019s what Jesus says all the time: \u201cI know you say that you are a believer. You call Me, \u2018Lord\u2019; but why do you call Me, \u2018Lord,\u2019 when you don\u2019t do what I say?\u201d\u00a0 The whole book of 1 John is\u2014it doesn\u2019t matter that you say you know Him\u2014because you don\u2019t obey His commands, you are a liar. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, in fact, you say in the book that couples who say they have marriage problems need to recognize, \u201cIt\u2019s not a marriage problem \/ it\u2019s a God problem.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Francis: <\/strong>Amen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Unpack what you mean by that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Bottom line\u2014Lisa and I, both, have made a commitment, individually, to God. I mean, she knows I\u2019m not going to leave her\u2014I can\u2019t. Before the Lord, we are going to work everything out. In the same way, she has that same mindset. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have this understanding, before the Lord, where He fills my every need\u2014like \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPsalm 23 says: \u201cThe Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want.\u201d\u00a0 I am not like desperately needing Lisa to fill all of these holes in my life because I\u2019m such a needy person. The Lord is wonderful. I know the Creator of the universe! I\u2019m going to be with Him <em>forever<\/em>!\u00a0 I\u2019ve everything in my possession. So, He\u2019s given me so much life\u2014life to the full\u2014that I just have life to give, and give, and give. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI don\u2019t wake up in the morning going, \u201cGosh, I need so much from Lisa.\u201d\u00a0 I\u2019m filled in the Lord, and I have life to give to her. The same is true for her. When people understand that, then, they are not sucking the life out of one another and needing so much from one another\u2014but they are getting their water from this fountain of life\u2014which is God, Himself. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>Well, and that\u2019s why it\u2019s so important, too, for those who are in a marriage where only one of them is spiritually-minded, and they do not have a believing husband or wife, to say: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cYou know what?\u00a0 It is still very possible for <em>you<\/em> to display the gospel alone.\u201d There is some loneliness involved in that\u2014and that\u2019s not something we make light of\u2014but it is still very, very possible for you to receive what you need from Christ and to love this other person and to display to the world\u2014to your children \/ to the people around you\u2014what it means to follow Christ and to display the gospel, even on your own. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I\u2019ve known a number of women and men, who have been in marriages like you are describing. I think they are among the most courageous in persevering. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Lisa: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>It is not easy\u2014it is painful \/ it is lonely. They are not sharing the most important thing about their lives. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to go back to something you just said, Francis\u2014that I just want to put a double underline under. There are two commitments that Barbara and I have made that completely altered our lives\u2014certainly, our marriage covenant, where we decided, \u201cWe are not going to leave one another,\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014but some months after we made our marriage covenant together, publicly and became married, we experienced our first Christmas together. We did something that Bill and Vonette Bright, who are the founders of Cru<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, did when they started out their marriage. We signed a contract with God\u2014a title deed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe signed over the rights and authority of our lives to Almighty God. It wasn\u2019t like it was a permanent contract, where we couldn\u2019t renege because every day you\u2019ve got to get up and re-up on your contract and agree\u2014but we signed formal papers \/ two handwritten pieces of paper\u2014where we gave everything we had and hoped to have to God, afresh, as Master and Lord of our lives. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt that point, Francis, it\u2019s like\u2014once you\u2019ve settled the issue of ownership\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cWho is going to be your master?\u00a0 Who\u2019s going to be your lord?\u201d\u2014because, if you are serving self\u2014and you\u2019ve got two people in the most intimate relationship of all of human history \/ \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tmarriage\u2014you\u2019ve got two people who are serving self\u2014you know where that\u2019s headed. But if you\u2019ve got two people, who are attempting to bow their necks \/ their wills before Almighty God and say: \u201cGod, would You show up?\u00a0 Would You do Your work in us and through us?\u00a0 Let us minister to each other, but also\u201d\u2014as you\u2019ve said\u2014\u201cto the world.\u201d\u00a0 That\u2019s when a couple, I think, experiences the pleasure of God. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Amen. I mean, there\u2019s something about getting your eyes off yourself and onto God and on His mission that just\u2014I mean, it\u2019s <em>beautiful<\/em> to me \/ it\u2019s <em>gorgeous<\/em> to me when I see my wife serving other people. I just look at her like, \u201cGosh, look what she is doing!\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBeing in Africa and watching her putting shoes on orphans, or feeding them, or counseling some lady in crisis, or walking around and knocking on doors and just asking, \u201cCan I pray for you?\u201d with a baby on her back\u2014it was like: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cGosh, she\u2019s amazing!\u201d or coming home and saying, \u201cHoney, is it okay if this person comes and lives with us?\u00a0 I know he just got out of prison, but\u2026\u201d For her to say, \u201cYes; yes, we trust in the Lord,\u201d\u2014it just makes her more and more <em>attractive<\/em> to me because I see her love for Jesus, and her faith, and His reward. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Francis, as you were bragging on Lisa, I just reflected on a meeting I was in yesterday, where I was bragging on Barbara. She has a heart for great theology passed on through women\u2014wives\/moms\u2014into their families. She\u2019s using her artistic ability to create biblically-anchored resources around the holidays that families celebrate to take families back to the Christian roots and allow women\u2014wives, moms, grandmothers\u2014to pass on the truth of the gospel to the next generation and beyond through those traditions. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was just bragging on her, and frankly, got kind of emotional about it because, like you, when you were just smiling, as you were talking about Lisa visiting an orphanage\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014when you see your wife fulfilling what God\u2019s design is for her, it can\u2019t help but make you proud because you are a team. That\u2019s what marriage is\u2014it\u2019s a couple who are about God\u2019s purposes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob: <\/strong>We\u2019re talking about doing marriage with God\u2019s agenda at the center of your marriage rather than your agenda at the center. When you start doing ministry together\u2014whether it\u2019s hosting an <em>Art of Marriage<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> event, or visiting an orphanage, or whatever God lays on your heart\u2014God\u2019s going to use that in some powerful ways in your marriage and in your family. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBelieve it or not, we\u2019ve already been talking to some folks who are starting to plan ahead for 2016 and thinking about hosting an <em>Art of Marriage<\/em> event in their community or in their church. The cool thing is\u20142016 is our 40<sup>th<\/sup> anniversary, as a ministry. Our team said: \u201cYou know what we ought to do?\u00a0 We ought to put together an anniversary special. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cAnybody who would host one of these events and you would agree to take, at least, five couples through a Friday night \/ Saturday <em>Art of Marriage<\/em> event\u2014we\u2019ll send you the DVDs for free if you\u2019ll agree to go ahead and purchase the workbooks for five couples and agree to take, at least, five couples through the material in 2016.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFind out more when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the link in the upper left-hand corner of the screen that says, \u201cGO DEEPER.\u201d Look for information about the book Francis and Lisa Chan have written on marriage that\u2019s called <em>You and Me Forever: Marriage in Light of Eternity<\/em>. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link in the upper left-hand corner that says, \u201cGO DEEPER.\u201d You can order the book from us, online; or you can call 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, this whole idea of having a God-centered marriage \/ having God\u2019s purposes at the center of your marriage\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014this is really at the heart of what we\u2019re all about, as a ministry, here at FamilyLife. Our goal is to provide practical biblical help and hope for your marriage and your family. We want to effectively develop godly families because we believe godly families can change the world, one home at a time. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I just want to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d to those of you who have come alongside us this year and said, \u201cThis ministry is important, and we want to help make it happen.\u201d\u00a0 We couldn\u2019t do it without your support \/ without your help. If you can help with a donation today, we would love to send to you, as a thank-you gift, a calendar. It\u2019s the FamilyLife 2016 Prayer Calendar, and the calendar starts in October of 2015. So, as soon as you get it, you can start using it. You can make a donation, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link that says, \u201cI Care.\u201d\u00a0 You\u2019ll find that in the upper right-hand corner of the homepage at FamilyLifeToday.com. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr you can call 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we\u2019re going to talk more about what it looks like to live marriage with an outward-looking perspective, where your focus is on \u201cHow can we serve the Lord together?\u201d rather than \u201cHow can we get our mate to please us or do what we want in our marriage?\u201d\u00a0 We\u2019ll have our guests, Francis and Lisa Chan, back with us. Hope you can be here as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2015 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["28.94M"],"filesize_raw":["30343053"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-303678.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-303678.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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Francis Chan and his wife, Lisa, remind listeners how important it is to find a spouse who loves the Lord so that together they can serve God with all their hearts.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2015-09-28.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You\u2019ve heard the statistic that the divorce rate in the church is no different than the divorce rate outside of the church?\u00a0 Francis Chan says he\u2019s not buying it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Yes, I mean\u2014I really believe there has never been a divorce between two Spirit-filled believers. They are using stats of everyone who goes to church\u2014calls themselves a Christian\u2014which, man, that\u2019s what the Bible\u2014that\u2019s what Jesus says all the time: \u201cI know you say that you are a believer. You call Me, \u2018Lord\u2019; but why do you call Me, \u2018Lord,\u2019 when you don\u2019t do what I say?\u201d\u00a0 The whole book of 1 John is\u2014it doesn\u2019t matter that you <em>say<\/em> you know Him\u2014because you don\u2019t obey His commands, you are a liar. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, September 28<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. To make a marriage work, Francis and Lisa Chan say it takes more than two\u2014more than you and me. We\u2019ll explore that today. Stay tuned. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us on the Monday edition. We\u2019re down to the last three days of our FamilyLife Oneness Prayer Challenge. All during the month of September, we have been, not just encouraging husbands and wives to pray together each day, but we have been sending out prompts every day. Today, we\u2019re encouraging you to pray that, when you experience conflict in marriage, you would handle it with grace and with wisdom. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I\u2019ll just mention\u2014if you\u2019ve not been a part of the 30-day Oneness Prayer Challenge, you can start it in your marriage today. All you have to do is go to FamilyLifeToday.com and look for information about the Oneness Prayer Challenge. Sign up; and we\u2019ll send you, every day, a prayer prompt for the next 30 days because we think it\u2019s pretty important for married couples. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>Now, I\u2019ve got to be honest with you, Dennis. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI have always wanted to meet one of our guests today because I\u2019ve always wanted to meet the woman who could be married to Francis Chan; you know?\u00a0 [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You know\u2014yes, I\u2019ve wondered that as well. So, Lisa, welcome to the broadcast. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Lisa: <\/strong>Thank you very much. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You\u2019ve kind of wondered that, too, by now; haven\u2019t you?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>Yes. What did I get myself into?\u00a0 No. [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, he\u2019s a good man. Francis\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>Yes, he is!\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014welcome back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>We\u2019ve had you on the broadcast, and we have battled for\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014the soapbox in the middle of the table and the microphones as we\u2019ve talked about the Holy Spirit a number of years ago. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>But you guys have written a fresh book called <em>You and Me Forever<\/em>. It\u2019s subtitled: <em>Marriage in Light of Eternity<\/em>. Now, you may not know this; but our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage getaway begins talking about the glory of God \/ the transcendent purpose of marriage as God intended it. Couples are learning that marriage is about more than just \u201cyou and me.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob: <\/strong>And most people think it\u2019s about them; don\u2019t they?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Yes, marriage is just a small part of this bigger picture in Scripture. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>But be honest\u2014you didn\u2019t have the bigger picture when you went to Lisa and proposed; did you?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Francis: <\/strong>No, no, no\u2014not at all. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You thought it was about you two; didn\u2019t you?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Oh, yes\u2014absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob: <\/strong>Tell us how you guys met and tell us how he popped the question, Lisa. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Lisa: <\/strong>Well, I knew the worship pastor at church that Francis was working at, at the time. He and I had kind of grown up at the same church\u2014the worship pastor. So, he had me come over and sing. He, actually, is the one who started feeding both of us these lines of\u2014for me, it was: \u201cYou\u2019ve got to stop dating anyone else. Francis is the one for you.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Oh, so, it was an arranged marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>It really was. [Laughter]\u00a0 He was so confident\u2014Dan, we thank you still. So, I came over\u2014started going to the church a lot to play lead in their Christmas musical. Francis kind of found a way to ask me out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Yes, I asked if I could be a stage manager. I told\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014I was honest with the worship pastor: \u201cI don\u2019t really care about your play. I want to meet this girl.\u201d\u00a0 [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So, you paid off the guy\u2014Dan\u2014and told him to arrange the marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Oh, yes. He just gave me a little headset and said: \u201cGo. Meet her.\u201d\u00a0 [Laughter] Seriously, I had no responsibilities except to ask her out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, how did you\u2014how long after you asked her out before you proposed?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Well, we had to wait like five or six months because it took a while to convince her parents, but I was okay with that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>I was the youngest of five. So, it was a little bit of having a hard time letting go. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Yes. So, they said, \u201cNo,\u201d a couple of times to me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Really?!\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Oh, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So, you went to the dad\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Oh, yes\u2014asked for the blessing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014and he said\u2026?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>\u201cNope.\u201d [Laughter] I think my life\u2014my mindset of just doing anything for the Lord \/ going <em>anywhere<\/em> can be a little scary to parents. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And do you think your mom and dad were just a little worried about what this man might lead you into?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>Yes, I think they were a little bit scared. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, they didn\u2019t know him at all. So, it took a while to: \u201cLet\u2019s make sure we really know who he is because, maybe, he\u2019s crazy for God; or maybe, he\u2019s just crazy.\u201d\u00a0 [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So, how did you pop the question?\u00a0 Take us to the experience. Knowing Francis Chan, this can\u2019t be average. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>No, we were going to go waterskiing\u2014back then, people still waterskied\u2014[Laughter] \u2014with a bunch of friends. I had set up on this little island in the middle of the lake\u2014you know, nice little flowers, and music, and video camera\u2014everything else. So, she kind of knew, as we were walking up there; and it was playing our song, you know\u2014popped the question there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, I want to go back to the first year of the Chan marriage. I want to go all the way back to the starting point because you both loved God \/ you both were sold out to Him, but you realized that marriage looks different from one side of the altar than it looks from the other side of the altar; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Yes. You really do; but I will say, we were warned about so many things like: \u201cBe careful of this. First year is going to be tough. This is going to be crazy.\u201d\u00a0 And I seriously felt little to none of that. It was like a dream come true\u2014it really was\u2014like honeymoon\u2014on: \u201cWow!\u00a0 I can\u2019t believe I get to be with my best friend. We never have to say goodbye.\u201d\u00a0 It was a dream. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You clicked. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Oh, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You clicked together. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Immediately.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>What about you, Lisa?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>Yes, I would totally agree\u2014although, I am having a flashback of the time he made me so mad that I threw my shoe at the closet just to get a real loud bang out of it. There were moments of just total pride, and selfishness, and silliness that first year; but we kept waiting for the shoe to drop\u2014\u201cWhen is this going to feel so awful and terrible?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And the shoe didn\u2019t drop, but it did get thrown. [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>It did get thrown. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Did you throw it at him?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>It was not at him. It was specifically to make a very loud noise. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And what prompted the shoe throwing; do you remember?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>That\u2019s what\u2019s so funny\u2014my daughter was asking me that the other day. I said: \u201cHoney, I can\u2019t even tell you. I cannot remember, even slightly, what it was about.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Francis: <\/strong>It was probably something I said\u2014I was very sarcastic back then. [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob: <\/strong>As I\u2019m listening to you guys describe your first year\u2014Mary Ann and I would be very similar. We\u2014our first year, we didn\u2019t hit the hiccups. We kind of enjoyed being with one another\u2014just like you described. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I think it was probably\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014maybe, ten years into our marriage when I was getting ready to prepare for a small group meeting that was going to happen at our house. Couples were coming over, and we were going to start a new study about marriage. I was doing some prep work that afternoon\u2014I was reading through these passages and reading some of the stuff. It dawned on me that: \u201cOh! Marriage is supposed to be about God.\u201d\u00a0 We had said, as couple: \u201cWe want God to be at the center of our marriage. We want\u2026\u201d But there is a difference between having God at the center of your marriage and having marriage be about Him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDo you know what I\u2019m saying?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Francis: <\/strong>Yes; yes. Well, I mean, even in our marriage\u2014because we\u2019ve been married 21 years now\u2014and we\u2019ve, maybe, fought a dozen times in all of that time. Then, it\u2019s only for a couple of hours, if that. Part of what prompted us to write this book was, \u201cHow come we don\u2019t fight?\u201d\u00a0 We realized it\u2019s because we haven\u2019t been focused on each other\u2014I mean, from Day One. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe were three weeks into the marriage when I felt like the Lord asked me to start a church. This is nothing we\u2019d ever talked about\u2014and to look at my new wife and say: \u201cI feel like God wants me to do this. I know we never talked about it.\u201d So, we did what we were told not to do\u2014which: \u201cHey, don\u2019t get right into the ministry.\u201d\u00a0 Well, we\u2019re three weeks in\u2014going, \u201cGod wants me to start a church.\u201d For Lisa to go: \u201cYou know what?\u00a0 I believe God called me to just support you in whatever way you are going to lead our family. So, if that is what you think God wants us to do, let\u2019s go.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00 <\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, ever since the beginning, we\u2019ve been thinking about others and: \u201cHow do we minister to people?\u00a0 How do we reach our neighborhood?\u00a0 How do we reach our city?\u201d\u00a0 Because we\u2019ve both been on this mission together, it\u2019s taken us all around the world now. It hasn\u2019t just been about: \u201cHey, you and me\u2014you\u2019re not making me feel good \/ I\u2019m not making you feel good.\u201d\u00a0 It\u2019s about: \u201cHey, we\u2019re here for a purpose.\u201d\u00a0 As we\u2019ve <em>pursued<\/em> that, it\u2019s caused us to be so in love with each other. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Lisa, what did you think when he came up with this vision and it wasn\u2019t just a vision for him?\u00a0 It was also a transformational moment for you because he was going to need you to go do something you weren\u2019t necessarily planning on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>Yes, I think\u2014you know, it\u2019s so important for single women\/young girls to watch and see that the man they are interested in or the man that they are dating is really walking with the Lord\u2014because that gave me a lot of confidence to say: \u201cYou know what?\u00a0 I do trust God in you.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cI trust that He\u2019s showing you a plan\u2014put something on your heart. That\u2019s my role, then\u2014I\u2019m going to jump in. I\u2019m going to roll my sleeves up, and let\u2019s get to work. We need Sunday school teachers. We need to do a mid-week kids\u2019 program.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mean, we were doing so much stuff; but it was so fun. In a way, even though it was tiring, it was also just: \u201cWe love these people. Let\u2019s serve them. Let\u2019s do what God put on your heart.\u201d\u00a0 I was so drawn to him because he loved God in a way that was very different than a lot of the people I had been surrounded by in my own church setting. That is not to bad-mouth them, necessarily; but\u2014wow\u2014it was like the way Francis would teach and preach\u2014he had this fear of God and this <em>reverence<\/em> for the Word of God. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, before we got married, the best gift I have ever been given was this Bible that he gave to me a couple weeks before we got married. It had my married name inscribed on it\u2014it said, \u201cLisa Chan\u201d before I was Lisa Chan. And he wrote this whole letter inside of it to me: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cThis is what we are going to commit our lives to. I want to see you wear this Bible out.\u201d\u00a0 You know\u2014and just: \u201cWow! What a gift\u2014to have a husband with that kind of mindset\u201d; you know?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Francis, you believe that we have dumbed down marriage into this horizontal relationship of two people trying to make each other happy. What you and Lisa have written about, here, is that there is a transcendent purpose to marriage that is God-created\/God-imbedded. If we miss this, we miss life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Absolutely. You know, we tend to focus on certain passages in Scripture and not others. When you look at what the Bible says about marriage\u2014yes, Paul wrote Ephesians 5, but even that was really about Christ and the church\u2014but Paul, who wrote that, also wrote 1 Corinthians 7 [verses 29-31]\u2014which is: \u201cThis is what I mean, brothers, the appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none; and those who mourn, as though they were not mourning; those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing; those who buy as though they had no goods;\u201d\u2014\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014and he goes on\u2014\u201cfor the present form of this world is passing away.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe\u2019s saying: \u201cThose who have wives\u2014just live like you do not because there is something bigger here\u2014there is this mission. We\u2019ve got this brief time here on earth, and this is what we\u2019ve got to be about. The Bible does talk about a marriage, but the emphasis is this marriage of the Lamb and this eternal marriage that we\u2019re going to be in. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mean if we just sat and wrote down everything Jesus said\u2014every time He\u2014wrote down, \u201cHusband,\u201d or \u201cwife,\u201d or \u201cfamily\u201d\u2014just write down all those verses\u2014we\u2019d be shocked! I mean, the way He speaks about family is: \u201cI am so far beyond that. Yes, I created marriage. Yes, I created man and woman, and I want you to live this way. But the point of that is so that the world has a picture of this beautiful marriage that\u2019s going to happen one day,\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014and this picture of this beautiful Father that we have in heaven. We\u2019re just that shadow \/ we\u2019re just that glimpse\u2014but too often, in the church\u2014we make it <em>all<\/em> about <em>us<\/em>, and it\u2019s killing our marriages. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>A marriage that\u2019s operating under the authority of Scripture and attempting to live obediently under the Lordship of Christ \/ living under His authority\u2014even though they are doing it imperfectly\u2014should show God off to a lost world. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Amen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And I think it\u2019s going to be one of our most powerful witnessing tools in the Christian community, going forward. In fact, I think, in one of the chapters, Lisa, you wrote what would happen if marriages got it together and divorce was rare. <br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>Wouldn\u2019t that be <em>so<\/em> amazing to have the statistics be: \u201cWow! Those who belong to Christ \/ those who are following Christ\u2014their divorce rate is next to nothing.\u201d\u00a0 <em>That<\/em> is what would make sense, given what we know \/ what we believe\u2014that we have the power of the Holy Spirit. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s like\u2014you think of those times when the Apostles would say this: \u201cBrothers, this ought not to be,\u201d\u2014like that\u2019s what goes through our hearts: \u201cPeople \/ believers out there\u2014come on!\u00a0 This ought not to be. We\u2019ve got to rise above and recognize who we are. We are God\u2019s children, who have been given His Spirit. We can live out our lives in a very different way.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, the interesting thing is\u2014the statistics we\u2019ve all heard\u2014that marriage is the same in the church as it is outside the church. Well, that\u2019s true if \u201cin the church\u201d means, \u201cAsk a guy\u2014\u2018Are you a Christian?\u2019\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Amen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>But if you ask a guy: \u201cDo you go to church every week?\u00a0 Do you read your Bible?\u00a0 Do you pray together?\u201d\u2014now, all of a sudden, the marriage statistics are completely different because believers, who are walking with Christ, recognize, \u201cIt ought not to be,\u201d and they are living for something different. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Francis: <\/strong>Yes, I mean\u2014I really believe there has never been a divorce between two Spirit-filled believers. Never in history has there been two Spirit-filled people \/ people walking in the Spirit who have gotten divorced. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s impossible! There\u2019s only one Spirit. So, one person has to be just not walking with Him in order to leave. I completely agree with you\u2014they\u2019re using stats of everyone who goes to church or calls themselves a Christian\u2014which, man, that\u2019s what the Bible\u2014that\u2019s what Jesus says all the time: \u201cI know you say that you are a believer. You call Me, \u2018Lord\u2019; but why do you call Me, \u2018Lord,\u2019 when you don\u2019t do what I say?\u201d\u00a0 The whole book of 1 John is\u2014it doesn\u2019t matter that you say you know Him\u2014because you don\u2019t obey His commands, you are a liar. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, in fact, you say in the book that couples who say they have marriage problems need to recognize, \u201cIt\u2019s not a marriage problem \/ it\u2019s a God problem.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Francis: <\/strong>Amen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Unpack what you mean by that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Bottom line\u2014Lisa and I, both, have made a commitment, individually, to God. I mean, she knows I\u2019m not going to leave her\u2014I can\u2019t. Before the Lord, we are going to work everything out. In the same way, she has that same mindset. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have this understanding, before the Lord, where He fills my every need\u2014like \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPsalm 23 says: \u201cThe Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want.\u201d\u00a0 I am not like desperately needing Lisa to fill all of these holes in my life because I\u2019m such a needy person. The Lord is wonderful. I know the Creator of the universe! I\u2019m going to be with Him <em>forever<\/em>!\u00a0 I\u2019ve everything in my possession. So, He\u2019s given me so much life\u2014life to the full\u2014that I just have life to give, and give, and give. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI don\u2019t wake up in the morning going, \u201cGosh, I need so much from Lisa.\u201d\u00a0 I\u2019m filled in the Lord, and I have life to give to her. The same is true for her. When people understand that, then, they are not sucking the life out of one another and needing so much from one another\u2014but they are getting their water from this fountain of life\u2014which is God, Himself. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Lisa: <\/strong>Well, and that\u2019s why it\u2019s so important, too, for those who are in a marriage where only one of them is spiritually-minded, and they do not have a believing husband or wife, to say: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cYou know what?\u00a0 It is still very possible for <em>you<\/em> to display the gospel alone.\u201d There is some loneliness involved in that\u2014and that\u2019s not something we make light of\u2014but it is still very, very possible for you to receive what you need from Christ and to love this other person and to display to the world\u2014to your children \/ to the people around you\u2014what it means to follow Christ and to display the gospel, even on your own. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I\u2019ve known a number of women and men, who have been in marriages like you are describing. I think they are among the most courageous in persevering. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Lisa: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>It is not easy\u2014it is painful \/ it is lonely. They are not sharing the most important thing about their lives. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to go back to something you just said, Francis\u2014that I just want to put a double underline under. There are two commitments that Barbara and I have made that completely altered our lives\u2014certainly, our marriage covenant, where we decided, \u201cWe are not going to leave one another,\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014but some months after we made our marriage covenant together, publicly and became married, we experienced our first Christmas together. We did something that Bill and Vonette Bright, who are the founders of Cru<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, did when they started out their marriage. We signed a contract with God\u2014a title deed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe signed over the rights and authority of our lives to Almighty God. It wasn\u2019t like it was a permanent contract, where we couldn\u2019t renege because every day you\u2019ve got to get up and re-up on your contract and agree\u2014but we signed formal papers \/ two handwritten pieces of paper\u2014where we gave everything we had and hoped to have to God, afresh, as Master and Lord of our lives. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt that point, Francis, it\u2019s like\u2014once you\u2019ve settled the issue of ownership\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cWho is going to be your master?\u00a0 Who\u2019s going to be your lord?\u201d\u2014because, if you are serving self\u2014and you\u2019ve got two people in the most intimate relationship of all of human history \/ \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tmarriage\u2014you\u2019ve got two people who are serving self\u2014you know where that\u2019s headed. But if you\u2019ve got two people, who are attempting to bow their necks \/ their wills before Almighty God and say: \u201cGod, would You show up?\u00a0 Would You do Your work in us and through us?\u00a0 Let us minister to each other, but also\u201d\u2014as you\u2019ve said\u2014\u201cto the world.\u201d\u00a0 That\u2019s when a couple, I think, experiences the pleasure of God. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Francis: <\/strong>Amen. I mean, there\u2019s something about getting your eyes off yourself and onto God and on His mission that just\u2014I mean, it\u2019s <em>beautiful<\/em> to me \/ it\u2019s <em>gorgeous<\/em> to me when I see my wife serving other people. I just look at her like, \u201cGosh, look what she is doing!\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBeing in Africa and watching her putting shoes on orphans, or feeding them, or counseling some lady in crisis, or walking around and knocking on doors and just asking, \u201cCan I pray for you?\u201d with a baby on her back\u2014it was like: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cGosh, she\u2019s amazing!\u201d or coming home and saying, \u201cHoney, is it okay if this person comes and lives with us?\u00a0 I know he just got out of prison, but\u2026\u201d For her to say, \u201cYes; yes, we trust in the Lord,\u201d\u2014it just makes her more and more <em>attractive<\/em> to me because I see her love for Jesus, and her faith, and His reward. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Francis, as you were bragging on Lisa, I just reflected on a meeting I was in yesterday, where I was bragging on Barbara. She has a heart for great theology passed on through women\u2014wives\/moms\u2014into their families. She\u2019s using her artistic ability to create biblically-anchored resources around the holidays that families celebrate to take families back to the Christian roots and allow women\u2014wives, moms, grandmothers\u2014to pass on the truth of the gospel to the next generation and beyond through those traditions. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was just bragging on her, and frankly, got kind of emotional about it because, like you, when you were just smiling, as you were talking about Lisa visiting an orphanage\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014when you see your wife fulfilling what God\u2019s design is for her, it can\u2019t help but make you proud because you are a team. That\u2019s what marriage is\u2014it\u2019s a couple who are about God\u2019s purposes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob: <\/strong>We\u2019re talking about doing marriage with God\u2019s agenda at the center of your marriage rather than your agenda at the center. When you start doing ministry together\u2014whether it\u2019s hosting an <em>Art of Marriage<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> event, or visiting an orphanage, or whatever God lays on your heart\u2014God\u2019s going to use that in some powerful ways in your marriage and in your family. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBelieve it or not, we\u2019ve already been talking to some folks who are starting to plan ahead for 2016 and thinking about hosting an <em>Art of Marriage<\/em> event in their community or in their church. The cool thing is\u20142016 is our 40<sup>th<\/sup> anniversary, as a ministry. Our team said: \u201cYou know what we ought to do?\u00a0 We ought to put together an anniversary special. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cAnybody who would host one of these events and you would agree to take, at least, five couples through a Friday night \/ Saturday <em>Art of Marriage<\/em> event\u2014we\u2019ll send you the DVDs for free if you\u2019ll agree to go ahead and purchase the workbooks for five couples and agree to take, at least, five couples through the material in 2016.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFind out more when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the link in the upper left-hand corner of the screen that says, \u201cGO DEEPER.\u201d Look for information about the book Francis and Lisa Chan have written on marriage that\u2019s called <em>You and Me Forever: Marriage in Light of Eternity<\/em>. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link in the upper left-hand corner that says, \u201cGO DEEPER.\u201d You can order the book from us, online; or you can call 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, this whole idea of having a God-centered marriage \/ having God\u2019s purposes at the center of your marriage\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014this is really at the heart of what we\u2019re all about, as a ministry, here at FamilyLife. Our goal is to provide practical biblical help and hope for your marriage and your family. We want to effectively develop godly families because we believe godly families can change the world, one home at a time. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I just want to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d to those of you who have come alongside us this year and said, \u201cThis ministry is important, and we want to help make it happen.\u201d\u00a0 We couldn\u2019t do it without your support \/ without your help. If you can help with a donation today, we would love to send to you, as a thank-you gift, a calendar. It\u2019s the FamilyLife 2016 Prayer Calendar, and the calendar starts in October of 2015. So, as soon as you get it, you can start using it. You can make a donation, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link that says, \u201cI Care.\u201d\u00a0 You\u2019ll find that in the upper right-hand corner of the homepage at FamilyLifeToday.com. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr you can call 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we\u2019re going to talk more about what it looks like to live marriage with an outward-looking perspective, where your focus is on \u201cHow can we serve the Lord together?\u201d rather than \u201cHow can we get our mate to please us or do what we want in our marriage?\u201d\u00a0 We\u2019ll have our guests, Francis and Lisa Chan, back with us. Hope you can be here as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2015 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/303678","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=303678"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=303678"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=303678"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=303678"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=303678"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=303678"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=303678"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}