{"id":303597,"date":"2015-07-31T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2015-07-31T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/hide-or-seek\/"},"modified":"2015-07-31T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2015-07-31T15:00:00","slug":"hide-or-seek","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/hide-or-seek\/","title":{"rendered":"Hide or Seek"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>It&#8217;s time we get real with God about sex. John Freeman recalls his past struggles, and how he found deliverance through God&#8217;s people and God&#8217;s Word.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2015-07-31.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"36.54M","filesize_raw":"38311489","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2840,2826],"tags":[2949,5785,5784,5783,5117],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[3533],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-303597","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-addiction","category-men","tag-abuse","tag-men-and-sex","tag-sexual-dysfunction","tag-spiritual-healing","tag-surrender-to-god","cwp_profile-john-freeman","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/303597\/hide-or-seek","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/303597\/hide-or-seek","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"3iXRSRx81T\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/hide-or-seek\/\">Hide or Seek<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/hide-or-seek\/embed\/#?secret=3iXRSRx81T\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Hide or Seek&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"3iXRSRx81T\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2015-07-31.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2015-07-31.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Some parents, who want to help guidetheir children in the area of sexuality during adolescence, find themselves paralyzed by their own past. Here\u2019s John Freeman.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>A lot of parents want to do that because they themselves bear so many sexual scars. They feel like, \u201cHow can I talk about this?\u201d\u00a0 So one of the things I often tell parents is: \u201cIf that\u2019s you, and you\u2019re aware of that, be like the flight attendant when they say, \u2018If this mask falls, put it on your face first and then on your child.\u2019\u201d\u00a0 This may be an area where you need to get help and start putting the mask of the gospel on the wounds in your life so you can be a better parent in this area.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>for Friday, July 31<sup>st<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. All of us are broken when it comes to our sexuality. Today, we\u2019re going to talk about how we can find help, and hope, and healing, and about how we can help others as well. Stay tuned.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em> Thanks for joining us. We\u2019re going to have the kind of conversation that guys are sometimes not all that comfortable having; you know?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And women kind of scratch their heads when they even hear men talk about this. They don\u2019t quite understand what\u2019s taking place. We\u2019re going to talk about\u2014well, how should I say it?\u2014men and sexuality. We have a gentleman with us\u2014John Freeman\u2014who runs a ministry, Harvest USA, that has been all over this ministry to men\u2014and women, as far as that goes\u2014but especially to men for the last 30 years or so. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJohn, welcome to the broadcast. I want you to explain a little bit to our listeners about Harvest USA\u2014what you guys do and kind of what it\u2019s about.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Thank you, Dennis. It\u2019s really an honor to be here. We have two foci\u2014one is to be a ministry of truth and mercy to the increasing numbers of individuals, families, churches, youth impacted by pornography, sexual addictions, homosexuality, and same-sex attraction. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOur second [focus]\u2014which is about half of what we do\u2014is to be an educationally-equipping resource for the local church to enable them to pastorally care for the increasing numbers of people struggling with those things in the church body.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>That\u2019s headquartered in Philadelphia; right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>That\u2019s right. Correct.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You and Penny live there. You\u2019ve been married 38 years \/ have three grown children. You speak at universities\/seminaries, and you\u2019ve written a book called <em>Hide or Seek<\/em>. Here\u2019s the subtitle\u2014this should tip it off: <em>When Men Get Real with God About Sex<\/em>. Men are not comfortable talking about this; are they?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>They are not. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Why?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>They don\u2019t want to talk about something that\u2019s totally warping their life and their worldview\u2014which misused and unaddressed issues with sex will do. They don\u2019t want to talk about it because of the shame and guilt of unconquerable\u2014or seemingly unconquerable\u2014things in their life, dealing with their sexual issues that they have never talked about with another person. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo they\u2019re in a prison; and they feel no one will understand: \u201cWhat will it say about me if, as a fine, upstanding member of this church, I say I have \u2018X\u2019 problem?\u201d\u00a0 Of course, the evil one capsulises all that and keeps them hidden in their own pit.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Your first chapter in your book is entitled, \u201cNo One Escapes.\u201d\u00a0 \u201cNo one escapes our sexualized, pornified culture and its consequences.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>That\u2019s really at the heart of your book\u2014that we, as men, are being bombarded in this culture.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>We are being bombarded, and we need to quit pretending that we are not\u2014and quit pretending that it\u2019s not impacting us on many deep levels.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>What does \u201cpornified\u201d mean?\u00a0 What are you describing there?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>What I mean is that your exposure to porn has now colored the lens of your life of everythingyou lookthrough. The Scriptures talk about, and they use the phrase, \u201cpeople walking around with eyes full of adultery,\u201d\u2014which means that I\u2019m walking around and my lens has now become my sexual temptation\u2019s sin pattern\u2014my shame and guilt, related to sex.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Okay, let\u2019s reel this back a little bit because it\u2019s God who made us the way we are; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So my desires\u2014my impulses, my urges, my sexual drive, and my sexual appetite\u2014comes from God?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Absolutely\u2014to be used in the framework and environment He created it to be used.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, being fallen men\u2014that\u2019s affected our sexual desire; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Absolutely. It means\u2014being fallen means everything has been affected about how we look at other people and how we use and misuse the good gift that God intended.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You teach in your book, and I believe the Bible teaches, that temptation is not wrong. So, you coach me in what you believe men need to do when they face the bait\u2014maybe it\u2019s the bait on a screen \/ as in clicking on something that is pornographic, maybe it\u2019s a TV show, maybe it\u2019s a movie, maybe it\u2019s a woman. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat are we to do with our temptation because of who we are, as men?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Number one: I think we have to admit the reality of it. That\u2019s where a lot of men lose the ball game. They don\u2019t want to admit the reality that my heartstrings have just been pulled in a direction that could be bad if I follow it in that direction. So, admitting the truth\u2014of reminding yourself that this is someone made in God\u2019s image\u2014but then what are you going to do with that?\u00a0 Is that person then going to be something that becomes an object of your lust, internally?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s where you can do something about that and preach the gospel to yourself about it. To have victory in this area, you have to have a good theology of temptation, and sin, and struggle\u2014to realize that struggle is going to be a part of the normal Christian life. Especially, if you have spent years upon years of looking to something to find life in that\u2019s been elicit, it may continue to be even a heavier struggle for many years.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>John, tell us how you got involved in dealing with this particular area of ministry because, when you went to seminary, you weren\u2019t thinking, \u201cI want to go to seminary so that I can help people who are struggling with sexual issues in their lives.\u201d\u00a0 Were you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>No, actually, I thought I was going to be a pastor in the pulpit somewhere. That was my desire and what I felt God was leading me to, but I got involved with this because of a missions professor who taught missions at seminary. One day, he came in the missions\u2019 class, which\u2014you usually learned about the philosophy of mission work in Asia, South America, and Africa. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe said: \u201cWe\u2019re going to talk about a different kind of mission field today. We\u2019re going to talk about an unreached people and a hidden people\u2014those involved folks, who are dealing with sexual sins and struggles that sit in the pews and don\u2019t have anywhere to go and don\u2019t know how the gospel applies.\u201d Of course, he said one of the unreached people groups were the homosexual community because the church says: \u201cWe don\u2019t like them. We don\u2019t want them. What do we have to do with them?\u2014hands off!\u201d Harvey told us, at that point in 1982, that was the fastest growing community in the country\u2014\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014 \u201cpeople group\u201d\u2014he called them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAlso, I grew up with a very sexually-broken background as well. I was exposed to pornography at a very early age, at five or six. I was also the victim of sexual abuse, from the age of six until seventeen, by peers, which caused me actually to question who I was, as a man. Tried to convince myself I was gay. Actually, I had decided I was gay when I was about 17; and this was just how I was going to live the rest of my life. In college\u2014in the first year of college\u2014the Lord met me in a powerful way through a friendship of a Christian guy and through reading the Bible.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, how do you go from there\u2014saying there\u2019s a need\u2014to knowing how to deal with \/ how to minister to people who are dealing with lust issues \/ sexual brokenness in their life?\u00a0 How does all of that evolve?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Through the training I was getting in seminary \/ through the revelations God was teaching me about my own heart as I actually got into some counselling for my own heart but, also, just realizing that the very issues that people struggle with today, sexually, have been around since God\u2019s people have been around. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSomeone can\u2014through the Scriptures and through the Word of God\u2014encourage, help, disciple, and mentor sexually-broken people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Take us into what\u2019s taking place at Harvest USA and what you\u2019re seeing in terms of how this brokenness manifests itself in men and women.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Both the numbers and the degree of spiritual and emotional damage we see in people has increased tremendously because the taboos and boundaries have been lowered so much in our culture. And because, again, we are exposed to our culture and it bombards us every day, we see even believers taking risks\u2014doing things they would have never done years ago\u2014because of the opportunity, the availability, the anonymity to do all these things. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAlso, sometimes, the church has not\u00a0 been good at inviting people to realistically talk about these struggles in our life. We see people being, of course, exposed and getting into trouble earlier and earlier in life now. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe average age of exposure, about seven or eight years ago, to pornography, was 11 to 12\u2014now, it\u2019s about 7 to 8. What that means is\u2014because people can have this available to them earlier and more in secret, they\u2019re going to start having heart patterns and bondages that are in place earlier than people used to have those. Does that make sense?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Oh yes. We\u2019re going to have a larger people group in the church than, perhaps, we\u2019ve ever had at any point in history.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>We haven\u2019t seen the coming tsunami yet\u2014it\u2019s still coming\u2014but it\u2019s going to come. It\u2019s going to impact many people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>The different kinds of sexual brokenness that exist in the culture \/ the kinds of sexual sins that you address in book, <em>Hide or Seek<\/em>\u2014there is a common root to all of this; isn\u2019t there?\u00a0 There\u2019s an issue of lust that, however it manifests itself, it\u2019s still the same core; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Lust basically is, \u201cI want to be the boss and lord of my own life in this area of life.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLust is that heart hunger in me that disregards those made in the image of God and reduces them to what I can get out of them right now to fill my hungry heart.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I want to go back to something earlier that you said. I just put my hat, as a parent, on because a lot of parents are listening to our broadcast. They heard you just quickly brush by how this culture is pressing pornography and images down into younger and younger boys and girls lives and that there is a coming tsunami. What should parents do?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Put things in place that monitor the electronic usage in your family, even if it makes you be the bad person for the teenager. Set up time to talk about these things. If there\u2019s anything good that would come out of this, is that it\u2019s forcing parents to be more realistic and have better conversations with their children earlier\u2014\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014that\u2019s the ideal\u2014so that they\u2019re opening up conversation with their kids about these things earlier. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat I\u2019ve found is\u2014and this is another sad thing\u2014is that a lot of parents typically don\u2019t know how; but a lot of parents won\u2019t do that because they themselves bear so many sexual scars that they feel, \u201cHow can I talk about this?\u201d One of the things that I often tell parents is: \u201cIf that\u2019s you, and you\u2019re aware of that, be like the flight attendant, who starts to tell you how the plane operates when they say, \u2018If this mask falls, put it on your face first and then on your child.\u2019\u00a0 This may be an area where you need to get help and start putting the mask of the gospel on the wounds in your life so you can be a better parent in this area.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>How can a mom and a dad help a son understand his sexual identity \/ his gender identity in a way that is going to help him live out his godliness, as a young man?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Conversations have to become more intimate\u2014they have to start sooner. They have to affirm their child in their boyhood and their girlhood, as God made them male and female. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey have to warn them about what they\u2019re going to see. I think that\u2019s a ministry our parents need to have\u2014is warning, not in a punitive way, but just: \u201cThis is the way life is in a fallen world. I\u2019m talking to you about this because you are a part of that fallen world, and it wants to eat you up. I\u2019m going to help you, and I want to be available to talk to you with any questions that you have about any of this,\u201d\u2014then bringing that up over and over.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And talk about your own struggles.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>If it\u2019s all under the blood and washed, you have nothing to be ashamed of. I don\u2019t need to go into all kinds of detail; but it would be good sometimes to say, \u201cSon, I wrestled with this when I was 13 years old.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014or \u201cI wrestle with this, now\u2014, that I\u2019m 45.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>\u2014or \u201cI wrestle with this now\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cthat I\u2019m 45.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cand this is something I need to guard my heart about.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>God takes our wounds and He can turn them into holy scars that can be used to declare to other broken people. When you really get to the bottom of it all\u2014whether or not you had a background like you had, or a background like Bob had or I had\u2014we\u2019re all broken people. We\u2019ve all made our share of mistakes, and we\u2019ve had things happen to us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe question is, \u201cHow are we going to respond today, as men, in a culture that really doesn\u2019t make it easy\/any easier to be a man today?\u201d\u00a0 If anything, there\u2019s a lot more traps out there, it feels like to me, than when\u2014even when I was in my 20s and 30s. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>It\u2019s going to assault us and confront us. We, as men, need, again, to just\u2014like the Nike<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> theme\u2014\u201cJust Do It\u201d\u2014to start to believe that God wants to use you in your children\u2019s \/ in your family\u2019s life and that God still has something to help you with your struggles. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI find so many men who have given up on that\u2014that\u2019s one of the reasons I wrote <em>Hide or Seek<\/em>\u2014is because\u2014there were three reasons: One was I wanted people to see the grace of the gospel for them where they\u2019re at. The second reason was\u2014I wanted men to either believe for the first time or begin to re-believe that God could do something powerful, pertinent, and personal in whatever pit they were in. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe third reason I wrote it was that men might be encouraged and get up the guts, after reading it, to take that first step into the light and honesty with someone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>What happens, when men get real with God about sex?\u2014that\u2019s the subtitle of your book. How do things change?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Well, a couple things happen. Number one, if they thought it was a hard battle before\u2014it will seem ten times harder because they made the step towards wholeness and godly help. Sometimes we will have people report to us, \u201cThe struggle has gotten ten times harder since I started coming to Harvest.\u201d\u00a0 I said: \u201cDoes that surprise you?\u00a0 The evil one does not want to let go of the areas in your life that he has caused you to disbelieve and be in sin.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf they have an accepting person, that\u2019s the important thing too\u2014accepting and affirming\u2014whether it\u2019s a friend, or two, or three friends, or a small group\u2014because it\u2019s a place you can begin to be honest, and it\u2019s an environment that\u2019s safe.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, the first thing that happens when men get real with God about sex is\u2014it gets harder.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You\u2019re not selling me on the fact that I ought to get real with God about sex because all you\u2019ve told me so far is it\u2019s going to get harder. What else is going to happen?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Well, it gets better because you\u2019re pursuing God\u2019s path\u2014that you haven\u2019t been pursuing. Whenever you do that, God meets you. I definitely believe that God meets you. The Scriptures tell us, in Titus, that the grace of God has appeared\u2014that gives us the power to say, \u201cNo,\u201d to ungodliness and live upright lives right now. I believe that\u2019s true; but there are so many men who have listened to the lies of Satan, I think, in this area for so many years. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was speaking to a large men\u2019s group\u2014I think I mention that in the book\u2014on \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t1 Thessalonians 4, \u201cThis is God\u2019s will, your sanctification, that you abstain from sexual immorality and learn how to control your own body, and honor not in lustful passion, like those who don\u2019t know God\u2026\u201d There was a group of about 150 men. Some young 30-something guy stood up and said \u201cThat\u2019s crazy!\u00a0 God can\u2019t expect anybody to live like that anymore.\u201d\u00a0 I thought, \u201cWell, he\u2019s probably just expressing what a third to a half of the men believe here.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>So, I addressed it with him for a few minutes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, what did you say?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>I said: \u201cWell, not only does He expect that of us, but He doesn\u2019t ever give us an expectation or a command that He doesn\u2019t give us the power to obey\u2014so, if there\u2019s a rule there, or a command, or an expectation, there is some way for you to accomplish that. It\u2019s not going to be in and of yourself\u2014it\u2019s really going to be supernatural.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You point out the struggle between wanting to be pure and battling \/ doing battle, as you\u2019re talking about here, with a quote from Martin Luther that I\u2019ve heard before. Maybe some of our listeners have never heard about it. It might really encourage them that even one of the great religious leaders in history had this perspective about this struggle.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Can I paraphrase it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Sure!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Basically said, \u201cYou cannot keep a bird from flying over your head, but you can keep him from making a nest in your hair,\u201d\u2014\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014which means that we cannot always be in control of or in charge of the things that bombard us or the temptations we have, but we can do something about making friends with them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>He was encouraging the birds not to make the nest. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So he disciplined himself, when he was in a busy place, not to let his eyes wander and gaze too long.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You\u2019ve seen men come through your program at Harvest USA. Some of them are there just for a short period of time and they wither\u2014the parable of the soil says some seed is scattered on different kinds of ground\u2014but you\u2019ve also seen men who go through this program, and they do yield thirty-, and sixty-, and a hundred-fold in their lives. Tell us about some of those guys.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Absolutely. What has to happen is\u2014at some point, you have to start to see that: \u201cWhat I think brings me here is really the tip of the iceberg. It\u2019s the symptom \/ it\u2019s the fruit on the tree\u2014it\u2019s not the root or the soil that it\u2019s grown up in.\u201d\u00a0 The gospel is about getting at the soil. Yes, the thing that you do and gets you in trouble is something God doesn\u2019t want you to do, but it starts much deeper than that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat people have to start to see is how the gospel applies to my loneliness, my insecurity, my abuse, my shame, and my fears in life\u2014those kinds of things. That\u2019s one key. If the light bulb starts to go on and they get a bigger impact of how the gospel has to meet me, that\u2019s a very good sign. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAlso, if they begin to see that this didn\u2019t start yesterday and it\u2019s not going to stop tomorrow\u2014even as far as me understanding getting a hold of it\u2014I can start to be obedient because God says I can, and with the help and encouragement of the friends that I\u2019ve made to help me\u2014hold me accountable\u2014and to be transparent. To have a realistic view, again, that the things that pushed me to this yesterday are not going to disappear tomorrow. We don\u2019t like that\u2014we want something done now and instantaneous.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes. To that point, you don\u2019t like the term, \u201crecovery.\u201d\u00a0 I think it really fits here because\u2014go ahead\u2014you explain it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Yes. Recovery is a product of discovery\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014discovering who I am in Christ, discovering where I\u2019ve helped mar the image of God in me, discovery of my own sin and temptation, discovery of how to love other people despite my own sin and my temptations. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRecovery, sometimes, I think, falls far short. It\u2019s not just about stopping this problem and doing something else, or it\u2019s not about getting back to a time when I didn\u2019t have this problem\u2014to me, that\u2019s very short-sighted\u2014but it\u2019s having a heart transformed radically that goes much more beyond just the things that get me in trouble, or looking at porn, or going to that screen. Sometimes, I am not sure the recovery movement works on that kind of character development.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I think one of the things\u2014just the word, \u201crecovery,\u201d kind of hints at that you have arrived.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>That is true.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You have \u201crecovered.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Right; because what do we do?\u00a0 We seek treatment and help for things, hoping that we\u2019re going to get recovered; right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s a once and all finished thing, but that\u2019s not\u2014God is up to something in our life, between now and when we reach heaven. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>It\u2019s usually about the scars and wounds in our life, but also how we can no longer use those to hide from God or not realize He does have expectations for us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You know that there are states that are outlawing what\u2019s referred to as reparative therapy. I don\u2019t know if people look at what Harvest is doing and say, \u201cThis is reparative therapy.\u201d\u00a0 Do you want to speak to that issue and where you guys are on this?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>We have never been about reparative therapy, although the gospel is reparative. We were not about reparative therapy for many reasons\u2014again, because we did not see this as gospel-centered\u2014but secondly, we saw too many outside-biblical things being done to try to shape a person\u2019s character. Shaping your character\u2014if you\u2019re a person who struggles with same-sex attraction, it\u2019s not about going to a ballgame or learning to fish\u2014that can be the fruit of it \/ the fruit of sort of take steps into the unknown\u2014but that doesn\u2019t make anybody different or change their character. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe gospel is what changes your character.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>There are men, listening to us right now, who have a heart to reach other men. Really, if you look at our culture, it\u2019s a target-rich environment to be able to reach out and to offer help, offer hope, minister to men where they live \/ where they struggle. I mean, we created a DVD series called <em>Stepping Up: A Call to Courageous Manhood. <\/em>A lot of guys have grabbed that and taken it and used it to minister to men. It\u2019s going to take men helping men \/ engaging with men\u2014small groups of men\u2014where they get real about where they are in life and challenge others to pull back the veneer in their own life and get real with others.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And this issue of sex is one of the areas where guys are going to have to get real with one another and be a little more transparent\/vulnerable than guys are used to being. Don\u2019t you think?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>No doubt about it. I just want to say, \u201cThanks,\u201d to you John, for writing <em>Hide or Seek<\/em> and for your work here, and for being on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou have encouraged a lot of men. I think you are going to help a lot more in the years to follow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Thank you so much. It has been an honor to be here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Maybe we ought to mention here, before we go too far, that this is not the book Dr. Dobson wrote, called <em>Hide or Seek. <\/em>You\u2019ve written a different book with the same title; in fact, your subtitle is: <em>When Men Get Real About God and Sex. <\/em>\u00a0We\u2019ve got copies of the book in our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>Resource Center. I would encourage our listeners\u2014get a copy of the book, <em>Hide or Seek<\/em>, by John Freeman. Again, go to our website: FamilyLifeToday.com.\u00a0 Click the link you find in the upper left-hand corner of the screen that says, \u201cGO DEEPER.\u201d You\u2019ll see John Freeman\u2019s book there. You can order it from us, online, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY\u20141-800-358-6329\u2014that is: 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d Ask about the book, <em>Hide or Seek<\/em>, when you get in touch with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs we wrap up the week, let me say a word of thanks to those of you who make <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> possible. This ministry exists because folks like you pray for us and support the ministry financially. More than 65 percent of all we need to function as a ministry comes from donations from listeners like you. Without it, we would not be on this local radio station broadcasting because the cost of producing and syndicating this program is covered by donations. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThank you to those of you who made today\u2019s program possible, and thanks to those of you who can join us today and make a donation in support of the ministry. You can do that, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link in the upper right-hand corner of our homepage that says, \u201cI CARE,\u201d to make an online donation; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY and make your donation over the phone. Or, if you would prefer, you can mail your donation to us at <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> at PO Box 7111 Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWith that, we hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together in church this weekend. I hope you can join us back on Monday. We have a physician who\u2019s going to be in here. Dr. John Dunlap will be joining us. We\u2019re going to talk about, not just health, but about wellness: \u201cHow do we live lives where we\u2019re being good stewards of the health that God has given us?\u201d\u00a0 We\u2019ll talk about what that means on Monday. Hope you can be here for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2015 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["36.54M"],"filesize_raw":["38311489"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-303597.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-303597.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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time we get real with God about sex. John Freeman recalls his past struggles, and how he found deliverance through God's people and God's Word.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2015-07-31.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Some parents, who want to help guidetheir children in the area of sexuality during adolescence, find themselves paralyzed by their own past. Here\u2019s John Freeman.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>A lot of parents want to do that because they themselves bear so many sexual scars. They feel like, \u201cHow can I talk about this?\u201d\u00a0 So one of the things I often tell parents is: \u201cIf that\u2019s you, and you\u2019re aware of that, be like the flight attendant when they say, \u2018If this mask falls, put it on your face first and then on your child.\u2019\u201d\u00a0 This may be an area where you need to get help and start putting the mask of the gospel on the wounds in your life so you can be a better parent in this area.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>for Friday, July 31<sup>st<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. All of us are broken when it comes to our sexuality. Today, we\u2019re going to talk about how we can find help, and hope, and healing, and about how we can help others as well. Stay tuned.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em> Thanks for joining us. We\u2019re going to have the kind of conversation that guys are sometimes not all that comfortable having; you know?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And women kind of scratch their heads when they even hear men talk about this. They don\u2019t quite understand what\u2019s taking place. We\u2019re going to talk about\u2014well, how should I say it?\u2014men and sexuality. We have a gentleman with us\u2014John Freeman\u2014who runs a ministry, Harvest USA, that has been all over this ministry to men\u2014and women, as far as that goes\u2014but especially to men for the last 30 years or so. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJohn, welcome to the broadcast. I want you to explain a little bit to our listeners about Harvest USA\u2014what you guys do and kind of what it\u2019s about.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Thank you, Dennis. It\u2019s really an honor to be here. We have two foci\u2014one is to be a ministry of truth and mercy to the increasing numbers of individuals, families, churches, youth impacted by pornography, sexual addictions, homosexuality, and same-sex attraction. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOur second [focus]\u2014which is about half of what we do\u2014is to be an educationally-equipping resource for the local church to enable them to pastorally care for the increasing numbers of people struggling with those things in the church body.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>That\u2019s headquartered in Philadelphia; right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>That\u2019s right. Correct.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You and Penny live there. You\u2019ve been married 38 years \/ have three grown children. You speak at universities\/seminaries, and you\u2019ve written a book called <em>Hide or Seek<\/em>. Here\u2019s the subtitle\u2014this should tip it off: <em>When Men Get Real with God About Sex<\/em>. Men are not comfortable talking about this; are they?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>They are not. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Why?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>They don\u2019t want to talk about something that\u2019s totally warping their life and their worldview\u2014which misused and unaddressed issues with sex will do. They don\u2019t want to talk about it because of the shame and guilt of unconquerable\u2014or seemingly unconquerable\u2014things in their life, dealing with their sexual issues that they have never talked about with another person. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo they\u2019re in a prison; and they feel no one will understand: \u201cWhat will it say about me if, as a fine, upstanding member of this church, I say I have \u2018X\u2019 problem?\u201d\u00a0 Of course, the evil one capsulises all that and keeps them hidden in their own pit.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Your first chapter in your book is entitled, \u201cNo One Escapes.\u201d\u00a0 \u201cNo one escapes our sexualized, pornified culture and its consequences.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>That\u2019s really at the heart of your book\u2014that we, as men, are being bombarded in this culture.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>We are being bombarded, and we need to quit pretending that we are not\u2014and quit pretending that it\u2019s not impacting us on many deep levels.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>What does \u201cpornified\u201d mean?\u00a0 What are you describing there?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>What I mean is that your exposure to porn has now colored the lens of your life of everythingyou lookthrough. The Scriptures talk about, and they use the phrase, \u201cpeople walking around with eyes full of adultery,\u201d\u2014which means that I\u2019m walking around and my lens has now become my sexual temptation\u2019s sin pattern\u2014my shame and guilt, related to sex.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Okay, let\u2019s reel this back a little bit because it\u2019s God who made us the way we are; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So my desires\u2014my impulses, my urges, my sexual drive, and my sexual appetite\u2014comes from God?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Absolutely\u2014to be used in the framework and environment He created it to be used.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, being fallen men\u2014that\u2019s affected our sexual desire; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Absolutely. It means\u2014being fallen means everything has been affected about how we look at other people and how we use and misuse the good gift that God intended.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You teach in your book, and I believe the Bible teaches, that temptation is not wrong. So, you coach me in what you believe men need to do when they face the bait\u2014maybe it\u2019s the bait on a screen \/ as in clicking on something that is pornographic, maybe it\u2019s a TV show, maybe it\u2019s a movie, maybe it\u2019s a woman. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat are we to do with our temptation because of who we are, as men?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Number one: I think we have to admit the reality of it. That\u2019s where a lot of men lose the ball game. They don\u2019t want to admit the reality that my heartstrings have just been pulled in a direction that could be bad if I follow it in that direction. So, admitting the truth\u2014of reminding yourself that this is someone made in God\u2019s image\u2014but then what are you going to do with that?\u00a0 Is that person then going to be something that becomes an object of your lust, internally?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s where you can do something about that and preach the gospel to yourself about it. To have victory in this area, you have to have a good theology of temptation, and sin, and struggle\u2014to realize that struggle is going to be a part of the normal Christian life. Especially, if you have spent years upon years of looking to something to find life in that\u2019s been elicit, it may continue to be even a heavier struggle for many years.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>John, tell us how you got involved in dealing with this particular area of ministry because, when you went to seminary, you weren\u2019t thinking, \u201cI want to go to seminary so that I can help people who are struggling with sexual issues in their lives.\u201d\u00a0 Were you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>No, actually, I thought I was going to be a pastor in the pulpit somewhere. That was my desire and what I felt God was leading me to, but I got involved with this because of a missions professor who taught missions at seminary. One day, he came in the missions\u2019 class, which\u2014you usually learned about the philosophy of mission work in Asia, South America, and Africa. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe said: \u201cWe\u2019re going to talk about a different kind of mission field today. We\u2019re going to talk about an unreached people and a hidden people\u2014those involved folks, who are dealing with sexual sins and struggles that sit in the pews and don\u2019t have anywhere to go and don\u2019t know how the gospel applies.\u201d Of course, he said one of the unreached people groups were the homosexual community because the church says: \u201cWe don\u2019t like them. We don\u2019t want them. What do we have to do with them?\u2014hands off!\u201d Harvey told us, at that point in 1982, that was the fastest growing community in the country\u2014\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014 \u201cpeople group\u201d\u2014he called them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAlso, I grew up with a very sexually-broken background as well. I was exposed to pornography at a very early age, at five or six. I was also the victim of sexual abuse, from the age of six until seventeen, by peers, which caused me actually to question who I was, as a man. Tried to convince myself I was gay. Actually, I had decided I was gay when I was about 17; and this was just how I was going to live the rest of my life. In college\u2014in the first year of college\u2014the Lord met me in a powerful way through a friendship of a Christian guy and through reading the Bible.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, how do you go from there\u2014saying there\u2019s a need\u2014to knowing how to deal with \/ how to minister to people who are dealing with lust issues \/ sexual brokenness in their life?\u00a0 How does all of that evolve?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Through the training I was getting in seminary \/ through the revelations God was teaching me about my own heart as I actually got into some counselling for my own heart but, also, just realizing that the very issues that people struggle with today, sexually, have been around since God\u2019s people have been around. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSomeone can\u2014through the Scriptures and through the Word of God\u2014encourage, help, disciple, and mentor sexually-broken people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Take us into what\u2019s taking place at Harvest USA and what you\u2019re seeing in terms of how this brokenness manifests itself in men and women.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Both the numbers and the degree of spiritual and emotional damage we see in people has increased tremendously because the taboos and boundaries have been lowered so much in our culture. And because, again, we are exposed to our culture and it bombards us every day, we see even believers taking risks\u2014doing things they would have never done years ago\u2014because of the opportunity, the availability, the anonymity to do all these things. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAlso, sometimes, the church has not\u00a0 been good at inviting people to realistically talk about these struggles in our life. We see people being, of course, exposed and getting into trouble earlier and earlier in life now. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe average age of exposure, about seven or eight years ago, to pornography, was 11 to 12\u2014now, it\u2019s about 7 to 8. What that means is\u2014because people can have this available to them earlier and more in secret, they\u2019re going to start having heart patterns and bondages that are in place earlier than people used to have those. Does that make sense?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Oh yes. We\u2019re going to have a larger people group in the church than, perhaps, we\u2019ve ever had at any point in history.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>We haven\u2019t seen the coming tsunami yet\u2014it\u2019s still coming\u2014but it\u2019s going to come. It\u2019s going to impact many people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>The different kinds of sexual brokenness that exist in the culture \/ the kinds of sexual sins that you address in book, <em>Hide or Seek<\/em>\u2014there is a common root to all of this; isn\u2019t there?\u00a0 There\u2019s an issue of lust that, however it manifests itself, it\u2019s still the same core; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Lust basically is, \u201cI want to be the boss and lord of my own life in this area of life.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLust is that heart hunger in me that disregards those made in the image of God and reduces them to what I can get out of them right now to fill my hungry heart.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I want to go back to something earlier that you said. I just put my hat, as a parent, on because a lot of parents are listening to our broadcast. They heard you just quickly brush by how this culture is pressing pornography and images down into younger and younger boys and girls lives and that there is a coming tsunami. What should parents do?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Put things in place that monitor the electronic usage in your family, even if it makes you be the bad person for the teenager. Set up time to talk about these things. If there\u2019s anything good that would come out of this, is that it\u2019s forcing parents to be more realistic and have better conversations with their children earlier\u2014\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014that\u2019s the ideal\u2014so that they\u2019re opening up conversation with their kids about these things earlier. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat I\u2019ve found is\u2014and this is another sad thing\u2014is that a lot of parents typically don\u2019t know how; but a lot of parents won\u2019t do that because they themselves bear so many sexual scars that they feel, \u201cHow can I talk about this?\u201d One of the things that I often tell parents is: \u201cIf that\u2019s you, and you\u2019re aware of that, be like the flight attendant, who starts to tell you how the plane operates when they say, \u2018If this mask falls, put it on your face first and then on your child.\u2019\u00a0 This may be an area where you need to get help and start putting the mask of the gospel on the wounds in your life so you can be a better parent in this area.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>How can a mom and a dad help a son understand his sexual identity \/ his gender identity in a way that is going to help him live out his godliness, as a young man?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Conversations have to become more intimate\u2014they have to start sooner. They have to affirm their child in their boyhood and their girlhood, as God made them male and female. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey have to warn them about what they\u2019re going to see. I think that\u2019s a ministry our parents need to have\u2014is warning, not in a punitive way, but just: \u201cThis is the way life is in a fallen world. I\u2019m talking to you about this because you are a part of that fallen world, and it wants to eat you up. I\u2019m going to help you, and I want to be available to talk to you with any questions that you have about any of this,\u201d\u2014then bringing that up over and over.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And talk about your own struggles.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>If it\u2019s all under the blood and washed, you have nothing to be ashamed of. I don\u2019t need to go into all kinds of detail; but it would be good sometimes to say, \u201cSon, I wrestled with this when I was 13 years old.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014or \u201cI wrestle with this, now\u2014, that I\u2019m 45.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>\u2014or \u201cI wrestle with this now\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cthat I\u2019m 45.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cand this is something I need to guard my heart about.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>God takes our wounds and He can turn them into holy scars that can be used to declare to other broken people. When you really get to the bottom of it all\u2014whether or not you had a background like you had, or a background like Bob had or I had\u2014we\u2019re all broken people. We\u2019ve all made our share of mistakes, and we\u2019ve had things happen to us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe question is, \u201cHow are we going to respond today, as men, in a culture that really doesn\u2019t make it easy\/any easier to be a man today?\u201d\u00a0 If anything, there\u2019s a lot more traps out there, it feels like to me, than when\u2014even when I was in my 20s and 30s. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>It\u2019s going to assault us and confront us. We, as men, need, again, to just\u2014like the Nike<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> theme\u2014\u201cJust Do It\u201d\u2014to start to believe that God wants to use you in your children\u2019s \/ in your family\u2019s life and that God still has something to help you with your struggles. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI find so many men who have given up on that\u2014that\u2019s one of the reasons I wrote <em>Hide or Seek<\/em>\u2014is because\u2014there were three reasons: One was I wanted people to see the grace of the gospel for them where they\u2019re at. The second reason was\u2014I wanted men to either believe for the first time or begin to re-believe that God could do something powerful, pertinent, and personal in whatever pit they were in. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe third reason I wrote it was that men might be encouraged and get up the guts, after reading it, to take that first step into the light and honesty with someone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>What happens, when men get real with God about sex?\u2014that\u2019s the subtitle of your book. How do things change?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Well, a couple things happen. Number one, if they thought it was a hard battle before\u2014it will seem ten times harder because they made the step towards wholeness and godly help. Sometimes we will have people report to us, \u201cThe struggle has gotten ten times harder since I started coming to Harvest.\u201d\u00a0 I said: \u201cDoes that surprise you?\u00a0 The evil one does not want to let go of the areas in your life that he has caused you to disbelieve and be in sin.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf they have an accepting person, that\u2019s the important thing too\u2014accepting and affirming\u2014whether it\u2019s a friend, or two, or three friends, or a small group\u2014because it\u2019s a place you can begin to be honest, and it\u2019s an environment that\u2019s safe.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, the first thing that happens when men get real with God about sex is\u2014it gets harder.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You\u2019re not selling me on the fact that I ought to get real with God about sex because all you\u2019ve told me so far is it\u2019s going to get harder. What else is going to happen?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Well, it gets better because you\u2019re pursuing God\u2019s path\u2014that you haven\u2019t been pursuing. Whenever you do that, God meets you. I definitely believe that God meets you. The Scriptures tell us, in Titus, that the grace of God has appeared\u2014that gives us the power to say, \u201cNo,\u201d to ungodliness and live upright lives right now. I believe that\u2019s true; but there are so many men who have listened to the lies of Satan, I think, in this area for so many years. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was speaking to a large men\u2019s group\u2014I think I mention that in the book\u2014on \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t1 Thessalonians 4, \u201cThis is God\u2019s will, your sanctification, that you abstain from sexual immorality and learn how to control your own body, and honor not in lustful passion, like those who don\u2019t know God\u2026\u201d There was a group of about 150 men. Some young 30-something guy stood up and said \u201cThat\u2019s crazy!\u00a0 God can\u2019t expect anybody to live like that anymore.\u201d\u00a0 I thought, \u201cWell, he\u2019s probably just expressing what a third to a half of the men believe here.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>So, I addressed it with him for a few minutes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So, what did you say?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>I said: \u201cWell, not only does He expect that of us, but He doesn\u2019t ever give us an expectation or a command that He doesn\u2019t give us the power to obey\u2014so, if there\u2019s a rule there, or a command, or an expectation, there is some way for you to accomplish that. It\u2019s not going to be in and of yourself\u2014it\u2019s really going to be supernatural.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You point out the struggle between wanting to be pure and battling \/ doing battle, as you\u2019re talking about here, with a quote from Martin Luther that I\u2019ve heard before. Maybe some of our listeners have never heard about it. It might really encourage them that even one of the great religious leaders in history had this perspective about this struggle.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Can I paraphrase it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Sure!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Basically said, \u201cYou cannot keep a bird from flying over your head, but you can keep him from making a nest in your hair,\u201d\u2014\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014which means that we cannot always be in control of or in charge of the things that bombard us or the temptations we have, but we can do something about making friends with them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>He was encouraging the birds not to make the nest. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So he disciplined himself, when he was in a busy place, not to let his eyes wander and gaze too long.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You\u2019ve seen men come through your program at Harvest USA. Some of them are there just for a short period of time and they wither\u2014the parable of the soil says some seed is scattered on different kinds of ground\u2014but you\u2019ve also seen men who go through this program, and they do yield thirty-, and sixty-, and a hundred-fold in their lives. Tell us about some of those guys.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Absolutely. What has to happen is\u2014at some point, you have to start to see that: \u201cWhat I think brings me here is really the tip of the iceberg. It\u2019s the symptom \/ it\u2019s the fruit on the tree\u2014it\u2019s not the root or the soil that it\u2019s grown up in.\u201d\u00a0 The gospel is about getting at the soil. Yes, the thing that you do and gets you in trouble is something God doesn\u2019t want you to do, but it starts much deeper than that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat people have to start to see is how the gospel applies to my loneliness, my insecurity, my abuse, my shame, and my fears in life\u2014those kinds of things. That\u2019s one key. If the light bulb starts to go on and they get a bigger impact of how the gospel has to meet me, that\u2019s a very good sign. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAlso, if they begin to see that this didn\u2019t start yesterday and it\u2019s not going to stop tomorrow\u2014even as far as me understanding getting a hold of it\u2014I can start to be obedient because God says I can, and with the help and encouragement of the friends that I\u2019ve made to help me\u2014hold me accountable\u2014and to be transparent. To have a realistic view, again, that the things that pushed me to this yesterday are not going to disappear tomorrow. We don\u2019t like that\u2014we want something done now and instantaneous.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes. To that point, you don\u2019t like the term, \u201crecovery.\u201d\u00a0 I think it really fits here because\u2014go ahead\u2014you explain it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Yes. Recovery is a product of discovery\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014discovering who I am in Christ, discovering where I\u2019ve helped mar the image of God in me, discovery of my own sin and temptation, discovery of how to love other people despite my own sin and my temptations. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRecovery, sometimes, I think, falls far short. It\u2019s not just about stopping this problem and doing something else, or it\u2019s not about getting back to a time when I didn\u2019t have this problem\u2014to me, that\u2019s very short-sighted\u2014but it\u2019s having a heart transformed radically that goes much more beyond just the things that get me in trouble, or looking at porn, or going to that screen. Sometimes, I am not sure the recovery movement works on that kind of character development.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I think one of the things\u2014just the word, \u201crecovery,\u201d kind of hints at that you have arrived.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>That is true.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You have \u201crecovered.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Right; because what do we do?\u00a0 We seek treatment and help for things, hoping that we\u2019re going to get recovered; right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s a once and all finished thing, but that\u2019s not\u2014God is up to something in our life, between now and when we reach heaven. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>It\u2019s usually about the scars and wounds in our life, but also how we can no longer use those to hide from God or not realize He does have expectations for us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You know that there are states that are outlawing what\u2019s referred to as reparative therapy. I don\u2019t know if people look at what Harvest is doing and say, \u201cThis is reparative therapy.\u201d\u00a0 Do you want to speak to that issue and where you guys are on this?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>We have never been about reparative therapy, although the gospel is reparative. We were not about reparative therapy for many reasons\u2014again, because we did not see this as gospel-centered\u2014but secondly, we saw too many outside-biblical things being done to try to shape a person\u2019s character. Shaping your character\u2014if you\u2019re a person who struggles with same-sex attraction, it\u2019s not about going to a ballgame or learning to fish\u2014that can be the fruit of it \/ the fruit of sort of take steps into the unknown\u2014but that doesn\u2019t make anybody different or change their character. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe gospel is what changes your character.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>There are men, listening to us right now, who have a heart to reach other men. Really, if you look at our culture, it\u2019s a target-rich environment to be able to reach out and to offer help, offer hope, minister to men where they live \/ where they struggle. I mean, we created a DVD series called <em>Stepping Up: A Call to Courageous Manhood. <\/em>A lot of guys have grabbed that and taken it and used it to minister to men. It\u2019s going to take men helping men \/ engaging with men\u2014small groups of men\u2014where they get real about where they are in life and challenge others to pull back the veneer in their own life and get real with others.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And this issue of sex is one of the areas where guys are going to have to get real with one another and be a little more transparent\/vulnerable than guys are used to being. Don\u2019t you think?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>No doubt about it. I just want to say, \u201cThanks,\u201d to you John, for writing <em>Hide or Seek<\/em> and for your work here, and for being on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou have encouraged a lot of men. I think you are going to help a lot more in the years to follow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John: <\/strong>Thank you so much. It has been an honor to be here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Maybe we ought to mention here, before we go too far, that this is not the book Dr. Dobson wrote, called <em>Hide or Seek. <\/em>You\u2019ve written a different book with the same title; in fact, your subtitle is: <em>When Men Get Real About God and Sex. <\/em>\u00a0We\u2019ve got copies of the book in our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>Resource Center. I would encourage our listeners\u2014get a copy of the book, <em>Hide or Seek<\/em>, by John Freeman. Again, go to our website: FamilyLifeToday.com.\u00a0 Click the link you find in the upper left-hand corner of the screen that says, \u201cGO DEEPER.\u201d You\u2019ll see John Freeman\u2019s book there. You can order it from us, online, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY\u20141-800-358-6329\u2014that is: 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d Ask about the book, <em>Hide or Seek<\/em>, when you get in touch with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs we wrap up the week, let me say a word of thanks to those of you who make <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> possible. This ministry exists because folks like you pray for us and support the ministry financially. More than 65 percent of all we need to function as a ministry comes from donations from listeners like you. Without it, we would not be on this local radio station broadcasting because the cost of producing and syndicating this program is covered by donations. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThank you to those of you who made today\u2019s program possible, and thanks to those of you who can join us today and make a donation in support of the ministry. You can do that, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link in the upper right-hand corner of our homepage that says, \u201cI CARE,\u201d to make an online donation; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY and make your donation over the phone. Or, if you would prefer, you can mail your donation to us at <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> at PO Box 7111 Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWith that, we hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together in church this weekend. I hope you can join us back on Monday. We have a physician who\u2019s going to be in here. Dr. John Dunlap will be joining us. We\u2019re going to talk about, not just health, but about wellness: \u201cHow do we live lives where we\u2019re being good stewards of the health that God has given us?\u201d\u00a0 We\u2019ll talk about what that means on Monday. Hope you can be here for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2015 FamilyLife. 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