{"id":303593,"date":"2015-07-29T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2015-07-29T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/what-is-truth\/"},"modified":"2015-07-29T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2015-07-29T15:00:00","slug":"what-is-truth","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/what-is-truth\/","title":{"rendered":"What Is Truth?"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Rosaria Butterfield believed truth was based on her personal experience. But as she studied the Bible, she began to see God&#8217;s truth. Rosaria talks about the day she surrendered to Christ.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2015-07-29.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"22.8M","filesize_raw":"23903824","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2896,2821],"tags":[5773,5776,5771,4159,4502,5772,5775,4504,5769,5770,4314,5774],"podcast_series":[7972],"cwp_profile":[8848],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-303593","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-lgbt","category-reaching-out","tag-believe-in-god","tag-do-you-believe-in-god","tag-feminist","tag-gospel","tag-hospitality","tag-how-to-treat-people","tag-i-believe-in-god","tag-lesbian","tag-lgbt","tag-lgbt-community","tag-transgender","tag-why-do-people-believe-in-god","podcast_series-secret-thoughts-of-an-unlikely-convert","cwp_profile-rosaria-butterfield","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/303593\/what-is-truth","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/303593\/what-is-truth","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"BdTJtnVaeE\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/what-is-truth\/\">What Is Truth?<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/what-is-truth\/embed\/#?secret=BdTJtnVaeE\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;What Is Truth?&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"BdTJtnVaeE\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2015-07-29.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2015-07-29.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Wednesday, July 29<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe will hear today how God answered Rosaria Butterfield\u2019s prayer. Stay tuned. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. There is a passage in a book I read years ago called <em>A Severe Mercy<\/em>. The author is a man named Sheldon Vanauken, and he was a skeptic at Oxford University. He started writing letters to one of his professors, C.S. Lewis, asking him questions all about Christianity. He\u2019d get a letter written, and Lewis would respond back to him with an answer. He\u2019d write a new letter and get an answer back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>He\u2019d finally written a letter to Lewis one time. The answer that came back was \u201cI\u2019ve decided not to answer your questions anymore.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe said, \u201cIt\u2019s\u2014I\u2019m pretty well convinced that the \u2018Hound of Heaven\u2019 is after you, and it\u2019s just a matter of time.\u201d [Laughter] I remember reading that\u2014and I remember Vanauken reading it and going\u2014he was a little put off\u2014but then, he got a little worried that, maybe, in fact, it was just a matter of time. [Laughter] <br><br>And I have to wonder if our guest, this week, has\u2014didn\u2019t have something of that same experience in her life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. And I\u2019ve been chased down by the \u201cHound of Heaven\u201d as well. It\u2019s good that He\u2019s on our trail. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Amen. Amen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I agree with you. Rosaria Butterfield joins us, again, on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Welcome back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Thank you very much. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> She has written a book called <em>The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert<\/em>. How do you summarize, Bob, what we\u2019ve talked about\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014this week. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014this week. I mean, Professor of English at Syracuse University and was a part of the women\u2019s studies. You were a teacher in the queer studies program. You were a lesbian\u2014had a live-in lover that you were with for a number of years. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn the process, she wrote a letter, criticizing a group that came to the Carrier Dome, there at Syracuse University\u2014a group called Promise Keepers. A pastor wrote you back. Long story made short\u2014instead of condemning you, he just started asking you questions that caused you to ponder and reflect, spiritually\u2014and the \u201cHound of Heaven\u201d began to get on your trail. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And you found yourself wrestling with whether the Bible is true\u2014whether it\u2019s authoritative\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014whether your life had to come under the authority of the Scriptures and of the God of the Scriptures. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But in your case, if you are going to believe this\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Right. Oh, yes, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and if you are going to act like you believe this, it\u2019s revolutionary. It\u2019s going to leave you with a lot of your old friends, who don\u2019t want to talk to you anymore, and a lot of new friends that you don\u2019t know if you want to hang around with. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Yes, that\u2019s very well-put; right. And so, I did. One day\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014and I don\u2019t know why\u2014one day, I got up; and I got out of bed that I shared with a woman. I brushed my teeth, and I walked the dogs. An hour later, I was sitting in a pew at the Syracuse Reformed Presbyterian Church. I came there to meet God. At that point, I had already known a lot of people in that church. I just never met them in the context of worship, but I had met them at Ken\u2019s house. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And when you said you came to meet God, you showed up to surrender. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Well, not at first. I mean, I\u2019d love to say that! You see, you make me look good; but that\u2019s not true\u2014not at first. At first, I was just really curious about sort of the\u2014\u201cWhat\u2019s the next step? Okay, I\u2019ve read the Bible, now, more than once; and I\u2019ve studied it. Now, what? Okay, well, you go to church. Let\u2019s find out what\u2019s going on there.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt was very powerful, sitting under the preaching of God\u2019s Word. It was very powerful. Then, the prayer that came out after that\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014which really surprised me. It had nothing to do with my sexuality. It had everything to do with my pride and my gender, \u201cLord, could you make a woman, like me, a godly woman?\u201d It was really not much of a prayer. It was more of a question, but God answered that question because God can do anything\u2014right?\u00a0 You know, \u201cCan these dry bones rise?\u201d\u2014right? Not by their own will\u2014they cannot. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Those two questions, as you sat listening to God\u2019s Word being preached\u2014and this is over a period of\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> \u2014years. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014of years. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> \u2014years. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But those two questions kept haunting you to a point where you finally\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Right, I did. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014had to throw in the flag and say, \u201cOkay.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> \u201cOkay, Lord, I\u2019m yours. I\u2019m yours.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Tell us about that day. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> In some ways, it was very anticlimactic because of all the things that had preceded it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was still kicking up a bit of a fit about: \u201cOh, poor me. I have to give up so much.\u201d Ken said to me once: \u201cWell, you\u2019ve got friends in this church. Why don\u2019t you ask them what they had to give up to be a Christian?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI thought: \u201cWell, okay. Have at it!\u201d I learned the most amazing things. I heard from women who had to bury their children, but not their faith. I heard about people who were struggling with all kinds of other sexual issues\u2014pornography addiction\u2014I mean, it was just everywhere. Everybody was a mess, but not really\u2014that was really striking to me. It seemed to me that, maybe, original sin is a comforting idea. See, I started out believing that everybody was good; but that\u2019s a hard world view to keep pumping up. But I started to think about it: \u201cWell, what if we were all born this way? Maybe, that\u2019s a comforting thing.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Born in sin. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Born in sin\u2014\u201cthat weighed differently.\u201d Everybody has something that\u2019s going to take them by the neck. I think that was in the context that I really learned the first rule of repentance\u2014that repentance is not some kind of one-time pledge you do at the moment of conversion. Repentance is a daily posture of the Christian\u2014daily, hourly, minute-by-minute. There is no shame in repentance. It is the kindness of God\u2014it says in the book of Romans\u2014that leads us to repentance. All repentance does\u2014I\u2019ve figured out\u2014it\u2019s really simple! It just proves that God was right all along! That\u2019s not new information! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And that we were broken\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> And that we were broken. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and needed a Redeemer. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. And there are a million ways to be broken. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Oh, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> But you know what? That\u2019s not the point. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> When you surrendered, you started on a new path that was very different than the path that you\u2019d been on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> It was. It was. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And she said she lost everything except her dog. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. I mean\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> He\u2019s a good dog too. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It was the end of your relationship with\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Sure, of course. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014your lesbian lover, but it was the beginning of the end of your time at Syracuse. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> It was. I did not lose my job\u2014I should say that. It\u2019s not that I\u2014I don\u2019t want to make this out to be that I was victim\u2014but one of the things I realized, in my repentance\u2014and you know what? I realize this every day, in repentance: \u201cJesus, it was You I was persecuting the whole time.\u201d So, that puts a certain caution on a person; right? I wasn\u2019t really sure what God would have me do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, it was the end of my time at Syracuse; but at the time, I didn\u2019t know it was the end of my time at Syracuse. What it was\u2014was it\u2014at the beginning of my research leave \/ my post-tenured research leave\u2014and I wanted to study Christian education. I thought: \u201cOkay, Lord, I\u2019m a Christian. Where does a Christian profess\u2014at a secular university or at a Christian college?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, a very good friend, who was faculty member at Syracuse\u2014he was able to get me an adjunct position at Geneva College. Then, I also had a teaching position at the Center for Urban Biblical Ministry in Pittsburgh. I pieced together a research program. It was in that context that I met Kent Butterfield, who is now my husband. So, I really never did go back to Syracuse; but that was totally shocking to me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Did everybody at Geneva College know who was coming to town when you showed up? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> You know they did, but they were okay with it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> They knew that\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> They were okay with it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014the post-feminist, post-lesbian\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> They sure\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014convert was coming to town. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And tell us\u2014because you don\u2019t really go into a whole lot of detail about the romance between you and your husband, in the book. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> I will tell you this\u2014that when you are a sexually-broken person,<em> the<\/em> most terrifying idea is that you would, then, be a married woman because the <em>fear<\/em> that I had was that I would pollute or break\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You\u2019d mess everything up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> \u2014I\u2019d mess everything up. So, one of the most amazing gifts, in my life, has been Kent and his daily biblical ministry\u2014that repentance of sin is one thing\u2014it\u2019s really important!\u2014we do it all the time\u2014it\u2019s our posture. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Healing\u2014sexual healing is a separate but related experience. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt is fully by the stripes of Christ that we are healed\u2014that when you are a sexually-broken person, your sexuality runs a little bit like water in a groove on a path. If you walk a path over and over again, that path becomes pretty deep. So, when the water floods, it has no place to go but make it almost a river, even. I\u2019m amazed that, over the years, as we meditate and appeal to Christ\u2019s balm\u2014because He took those stripes\u2014those grooves in our path get filled up. What they get filled up by is the means of grace. You know, it\u2019s intended\u2014God intends to heal us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe intends for His people to be healed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, I want to be careful about how I say this. I did not say that He intends for all people who struggle with same-sex attraction to become heterosexual. That is not what I said, and that does not happen. What I mean\u2014it happens sometimes; but what we know is that we relinquish our life to God, and He gives back what He will. But those grooves that are worn down from sexual sin\u2014and that includes sexual sin of the mind and the emotions\u2014although I will say that acting on your sexual sin makes those grooves deep and dirty really fast much more so. But the layers\u2014the layers that God established to fill that hole, through the means of grace, is a powerful thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, by God\u2019s grace, I married a Christian! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI married someone who became a Christian at the age of 17. He was and has been a godly man for many, many more years than I certainly have been a godly woman. So, he could always\u2014and does. I always tell people that I married a pastor because I need daily biblical counsel; right? And that\u2019s true. But he knows that it\u2019s not\u2014Kent is not healing me\u2014and it\u2019s not marriage, per se, that\u2019s healing me. It\u2019s the means of grace. It\u2019s Bible reading and Psalm singing. It\u2019s the sacraments. It\u2019s the fellowship of the saints. And of course, Christ was leading the whole time because sexual sin is predatory. We see that\u2014we that very early in the Bible when God says to Cain, \u201cSin is lurking at your door.\u201d It\u2019s Genesis 4\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014\u201cIts desire is for you, but you will have mastery over it.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think, too often, people think that: \u201cOh, you are struggling with pornography? Well, hey, let\u2019s just get you married;\u201d right? \u201cLet\u2019s find a \u2018sanctified outlet\u2019 for your sexual desire,\u201d\u2014not getting the fact that a predatory sexuality is a totally different <em>desire<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, when I started to examine, \u201cWhat is the root of my homosexuality?\u201d I did not come up with homosexuality. In the same way, when I go to my garden and I want to know the root of my weeds, I don\u2019t come up with the yellow dandelion head. When I really probed what was at the root of my homosexuality, it was pride. It was pride in wanting to invent myself on my own terms. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I married Kent, I became a submitted wife. There\u2019s not a lot of pride\u2014not in that\u2014nor is there humiliation in that\u2014but there\u2019s a sense of connection and a puzzle piece, now, that suddenly finds its home. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And could I say it for you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Because you were a feminist\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Yes, I was. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014looking for completion, looking to be all that\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014you were made to be in that rightly-related relationship with your husband, both submitting to Jesus Christ\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014you found\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> That\u2019s right; absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014you found the completion you longed for, as a feminist. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> I did, and that really gets us to that question that we haven\u2019t really gotten to. And that\u2019s the question about: \u201cWhat do we do now? What if gay marriage becomes normative?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019re heading in that direction. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> We are; and my question to you is: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cCoach us here. Help us think, as followers of Christ.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> We have to\u2014we have to\u2014we have to realize that well, first of all, we are <em>all <\/em>called to a sanctified sexuality. That includes our celibate\/single members of our churches\u2014they are not second-class citizens. It is shameful, on our part\u2014and I would say it is part of the, perhaps, the potential homophobia of the church\u2014when we do that to people. So, I think we need to value a sanctified celibate singleness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut when we talk about marriage, between a man and a woman, we need to talk about it in biblical terms, not in moral terms. We can\u2019t just say, \u201cThe Bible says, \u2018Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.\u2019\u201d You know, all that does is take the door and take it off the hinges and then wonder why the door doesn\u2019t stand up. The hinge is the Bible; and there are a couple of things that we, as Christians, need to be able to articulately defend. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne is that marriage is covenantal. It\u2019s a relationship that God establishes with us and guarantees by His Word. God does not make a covenant apart from the separate genders for marriage. So, it is covenantal. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe also have to remember that the picture of marriage is Christ and the church and that the completion factor\u2014and it\u2019s the complement factor. It\u2019s C-O-M-P-L-E-M-<strong>E<\/strong>-N-T. It\u2019s not an \u201cI\u201d. We\u2019re not talking about trophy wives. We\u2019re talking about a man and a woman complementing \/ fitting together in order to show the watching world a picture of Christ and the church. We\u2019ve likely not done that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, the other\u2014and I know this is a controversial topic\u2014not that we haven\u2019t talked about controversy, gentlemen! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, what\u2019s new; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> So, what\u2019s new? But I think\u2014if you do not have historical Adam, if you do not have literal six-day creation, if you do not have Adam, made from the dust, and then, Eve made from a rib of Adam\u2014you have no biblical basis for a woman\u2019s submission to man. You have <em>mutual<\/em> submission. So, I think we\u2019ve got to go back to the basics. I think we need to find a biblical defense for these things, and I think that we need to stop fearing that people are going to call us stupid because that\u2019s what I <em>did<\/em> and look where I am; right? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes, and also, being afraid of being called a bigot as though you hate. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Right\u2014and we\u2019re getting there. We\u2019re getting there because I would absolutely say that to fail to defend homosexual marriage\u2014that is the contemporary unforgiveable sin\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> \u2014in our culture. So, I think we are getting there; but again\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> But we have to defend marriage with love. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> With love. So, that raises the question: \u201cWhat do I do with my gay or lesbian daughter? And how do I interface with this person I love?\u201d Let\u2019s just give a scenario. She was raised in the church. She made a profession of faith. \u201cNow, she\u2019s lost to me. What do I do?\u201d Those are really good questions. What you do is\u2014you love your child \/ you love your child. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, you do have to be careful, though, about this business about attending gay weddings. I mean, I think you can love someone without giving a <em>false<\/em> blessing because\u2014think about it\u2014you want to be there on the other side. You want to be able to be there, standing with a unified Christian witness; but you can still love. You can still enjoy your holidays together and be in each other\u2019s lives. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And they won\u2019t view it as a rejection that you didn\u2019t come to the wedding? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Well, they may\u2014they may\u2014but we talked earlier about, \u201cWhere do you draw the line?\u201d You know, you want to draw it carefully; and I can\u2019t tell you what to do. You know your family, and you know what to do. I\u2019m just saying that because: \u201cHow do we defend marriage?\u201d Well, one way that we defend marriage is to make sure that we are speaking in a unified voice about it. That\u2019s a hard one\u2014I know. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It is a hard one\u2014especially, if it was your daughter\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Yes, absolutely! Absolutely, and so\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014marrying another woman. You drew the line and said, \u201cSweetheart, I want you to know I will love you to the end; but I will not bless this union because it doesn\u2019t represent what God commanded a man and a woman to merge together in a covenant with God.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Right. \u201cBut I\u2019m not cutting you out.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> \u201cI want you and your partner here for Christmas, and Thanksgiving, and\u2026\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You know, there is a lot more we could talk about here; and Rosaria, I want to say, \u201cThanks for your book,\u201d\u2014how this kind of sounds funny, coming from somebody who got a spanking in the eighth-grade English class\u2014but how well-written it is and how entertaining\u2014but also just allow us to peek into your life and to hear what transformation sounds like and what was going on in your soul, at the same time. There is a lot in this book that I\u2019d recommend. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI just want to say, \u201cThanks for being on our broadcast and hope you\u2019ll come back again someday.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And I hope listeners will get a copy of your book\u2014both your first book which is called <em>The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert<\/em> and your brand-new book which is called <em>Openness Unhindered: Further Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert on Sexual Identity and Union with Christ<\/em>. We\u2019ve got copies of both books in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI would encourage our listeners: \u201cGo to FamilyLifeToday.com to request a copy of either or both books.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, Rosaria\u2019s first book is called <em>The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert<\/em>. Her new book is called <em>Openness Unhindered: Further Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert on Sexual Identity and Union in Christ<\/em>. You can order these books from FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY\u20141-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, this issue that we\u2019ve talked about today is\u2014well, at some level, it\u2019s the defining issue of our day. In this culture\u2014who we are going to be, as a people\u2014is wrapped up in how we respond to this issue. I think we have to be coached, and I think we have to be guided. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI hope that\u2019s what today\u2019s program has provided. When we put these programs together, our prayer is always that you will find both help and hope as you listen to the conversations we have, here on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I\u2019m grateful for those of you who stand with this ministry as financial supporters. We are listener-supported. The cost of doing all that we do is covered by folks, like you, who make this ministry possible with your donations in support of the work of <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you\u2019d like to help us with a donation today, go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link in the upper right-hand corner of the screen that says, \u201cI CARE,\u201d and you can make an online donation on our website. Again, it\u2019s FamilyLifeToday.com. Or call, 1-800-FL-TODAY. You can make your donation over the phone. If you\u2019d like to mail a donation to us, our address is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we hope you can tune in for a laugh or two. Our friend, Michael Jr., is going to stop by. We\u2019re going to talk about his life, and how God is at work in his life, and through his ministry. It\u2019s going to be a great visit. Hope you can tune in for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2015 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["22.8M"],"filesize_raw":["23903824"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-303593.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-303593.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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Butterfield believed truth was based on her personal experience. But as she studied the Bible, she began to see God's truth. Rosaria talks about the day she surrendered to Christ.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2015-07-29.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Wednesday, July 29<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe will hear today how God answered Rosaria Butterfield\u2019s prayer. Stay tuned. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. There is a passage in a book I read years ago called <em>A Severe Mercy<\/em>. The author is a man named Sheldon Vanauken, and he was a skeptic at Oxford University. He started writing letters to one of his professors, C.S. Lewis, asking him questions all about Christianity. He\u2019d get a letter written, and Lewis would respond back to him with an answer. He\u2019d write a new letter and get an answer back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>He\u2019d finally written a letter to Lewis one time. The answer that came back was \u201cI\u2019ve decided not to answer your questions anymore.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe said, \u201cIt\u2019s\u2014I\u2019m pretty well convinced that the \u2018Hound of Heaven\u2019 is after you, and it\u2019s just a matter of time.\u201d [Laughter] I remember reading that\u2014and I remember Vanauken reading it and going\u2014he was a little put off\u2014but then, he got a little worried that, maybe, in fact, it was just a matter of time. [Laughter] <br><br>And I have to wonder if our guest, this week, has\u2014didn\u2019t have something of that same experience in her life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. And I\u2019ve been chased down by the \u201cHound of Heaven\u201d as well. It\u2019s good that He\u2019s on our trail. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Amen. Amen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I agree with you. Rosaria Butterfield joins us, again, on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Welcome back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Thank you very much. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> She has written a book called <em>The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert<\/em>. How do you summarize, Bob, what we\u2019ve talked about\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014this week. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014this week. I mean, Professor of English at Syracuse University and was a part of the women\u2019s studies. You were a teacher in the queer studies program. You were a lesbian\u2014had a live-in lover that you were with for a number of years. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn the process, she wrote a letter, criticizing a group that came to the Carrier Dome, there at Syracuse University\u2014a group called Promise Keepers. A pastor wrote you back. Long story made short\u2014instead of condemning you, he just started asking you questions that caused you to ponder and reflect, spiritually\u2014and the \u201cHound of Heaven\u201d began to get on your trail. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And you found yourself wrestling with whether the Bible is true\u2014whether it\u2019s authoritative\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014whether your life had to come under the authority of the Scriptures and of the God of the Scriptures. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But in your case, if you are going to believe this\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Right. Oh, yes, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and if you are going to act like you believe this, it\u2019s revolutionary. It\u2019s going to leave you with a lot of your old friends, who don\u2019t want to talk to you anymore, and a lot of new friends that you don\u2019t know if you want to hang around with. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Yes, that\u2019s very well-put; right. And so, I did. One day\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014and I don\u2019t know why\u2014one day, I got up; and I got out of bed that I shared with a woman. I brushed my teeth, and I walked the dogs. An hour later, I was sitting in a pew at the Syracuse Reformed Presbyterian Church. I came there to meet God. At that point, I had already known a lot of people in that church. I just never met them in the context of worship, but I had met them at Ken\u2019s house. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And when you said you came to meet God, you showed up to surrender. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Well, not at first. I mean, I\u2019d love to say that! You see, you make me look good; but that\u2019s not true\u2014not at first. At first, I was just really curious about sort of the\u2014\u201cWhat\u2019s the next step? Okay, I\u2019ve read the Bible, now, more than once; and I\u2019ve studied it. Now, what? Okay, well, you go to church. Let\u2019s find out what\u2019s going on there.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt was very powerful, sitting under the preaching of God\u2019s Word. It was very powerful. Then, the prayer that came out after that\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014which really surprised me. It had nothing to do with my sexuality. It had everything to do with my pride and my gender, \u201cLord, could you make a woman, like me, a godly woman?\u201d It was really not much of a prayer. It was more of a question, but God answered that question because God can do anything\u2014right?\u00a0 You know, \u201cCan these dry bones rise?\u201d\u2014right? Not by their own will\u2014they cannot. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Those two questions, as you sat listening to God\u2019s Word being preached\u2014and this is over a period of\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> \u2014years. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014of years. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> \u2014years. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But those two questions kept haunting you to a point where you finally\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Right, I did. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014had to throw in the flag and say, \u201cOkay.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> \u201cOkay, Lord, I\u2019m yours. I\u2019m yours.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Tell us about that day. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> In some ways, it was very anticlimactic because of all the things that had preceded it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was still kicking up a bit of a fit about: \u201cOh, poor me. I have to give up so much.\u201d Ken said to me once: \u201cWell, you\u2019ve got friends in this church. Why don\u2019t you ask them what they had to give up to be a Christian?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI thought: \u201cWell, okay. Have at it!\u201d I learned the most amazing things. I heard from women who had to bury their children, but not their faith. I heard about people who were struggling with all kinds of other sexual issues\u2014pornography addiction\u2014I mean, it was just everywhere. Everybody was a mess, but not really\u2014that was really striking to me. It seemed to me that, maybe, original sin is a comforting idea. See, I started out believing that everybody was good; but that\u2019s a hard world view to keep pumping up. But I started to think about it: \u201cWell, what if we were all born this way? Maybe, that\u2019s a comforting thing.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Born in sin. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Born in sin\u2014\u201cthat weighed differently.\u201d Everybody has something that\u2019s going to take them by the neck. I think that was in the context that I really learned the first rule of repentance\u2014that repentance is not some kind of one-time pledge you do at the moment of conversion. Repentance is a daily posture of the Christian\u2014daily, hourly, minute-by-minute. There is no shame in repentance. It is the kindness of God\u2014it says in the book of Romans\u2014that leads us to repentance. All repentance does\u2014I\u2019ve figured out\u2014it\u2019s really simple! It just proves that God was right all along! That\u2019s not new information! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And that we were broken\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> And that we were broken. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and needed a Redeemer. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. And there are a million ways to be broken. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Oh, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> But you know what? That\u2019s not the point. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> When you surrendered, you started on a new path that was very different than the path that you\u2019d been on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> It was. It was. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And she said she lost everything except her dog. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. I mean\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> He\u2019s a good dog too. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It was the end of your relationship with\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Sure, of course. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014your lesbian lover, but it was the beginning of the end of your time at Syracuse. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> It was. I did not lose my job\u2014I should say that. It\u2019s not that I\u2014I don\u2019t want to make this out to be that I was victim\u2014but one of the things I realized, in my repentance\u2014and you know what? I realize this every day, in repentance: \u201cJesus, it was You I was persecuting the whole time.\u201d So, that puts a certain caution on a person; right? I wasn\u2019t really sure what God would have me do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, it was the end of my time at Syracuse; but at the time, I didn\u2019t know it was the end of my time at Syracuse. What it was\u2014was it\u2014at the beginning of my research leave \/ my post-tenured research leave\u2014and I wanted to study Christian education. I thought: \u201cOkay, Lord, I\u2019m a Christian. Where does a Christian profess\u2014at a secular university or at a Christian college?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, a very good friend, who was faculty member at Syracuse\u2014he was able to get me an adjunct position at Geneva College. Then, I also had a teaching position at the Center for Urban Biblical Ministry in Pittsburgh. I pieced together a research program. It was in that context that I met Kent Butterfield, who is now my husband. So, I really never did go back to Syracuse; but that was totally shocking to me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Did everybody at Geneva College know who was coming to town when you showed up? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> You know they did, but they were okay with it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> They knew that\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> They were okay with it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014the post-feminist, post-lesbian\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> They sure\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014convert was coming to town. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And tell us\u2014because you don\u2019t really go into a whole lot of detail about the romance between you and your husband, in the book. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> I will tell you this\u2014that when you are a sexually-broken person,<em> the<\/em> most terrifying idea is that you would, then, be a married woman because the <em>fear<\/em> that I had was that I would pollute or break\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You\u2019d mess everything up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> \u2014I\u2019d mess everything up. So, one of the most amazing gifts, in my life, has been Kent and his daily biblical ministry\u2014that repentance of sin is one thing\u2014it\u2019s really important!\u2014we do it all the time\u2014it\u2019s our posture. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Healing\u2014sexual healing is a separate but related experience. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt is fully by the stripes of Christ that we are healed\u2014that when you are a sexually-broken person, your sexuality runs a little bit like water in a groove on a path. If you walk a path over and over again, that path becomes pretty deep. So, when the water floods, it has no place to go but make it almost a river, even. I\u2019m amazed that, over the years, as we meditate and appeal to Christ\u2019s balm\u2014because He took those stripes\u2014those grooves in our path get filled up. What they get filled up by is the means of grace. You know, it\u2019s intended\u2014God intends to heal us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe intends for His people to be healed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, I want to be careful about how I say this. I did not say that He intends for all people who struggle with same-sex attraction to become heterosexual. That is not what I said, and that does not happen. What I mean\u2014it happens sometimes; but what we know is that we relinquish our life to God, and He gives back what He will. But those grooves that are worn down from sexual sin\u2014and that includes sexual sin of the mind and the emotions\u2014although I will say that acting on your sexual sin makes those grooves deep and dirty really fast much more so. But the layers\u2014the layers that God established to fill that hole, through the means of grace, is a powerful thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, by God\u2019s grace, I married a Christian! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI married someone who became a Christian at the age of 17. He was and has been a godly man for many, many more years than I certainly have been a godly woman. So, he could always\u2014and does. I always tell people that I married a pastor because I need daily biblical counsel; right? And that\u2019s true. But he knows that it\u2019s not\u2014Kent is not healing me\u2014and it\u2019s not marriage, per se, that\u2019s healing me. It\u2019s the means of grace. It\u2019s Bible reading and Psalm singing. It\u2019s the sacraments. It\u2019s the fellowship of the saints. And of course, Christ was leading the whole time because sexual sin is predatory. We see that\u2014we that very early in the Bible when God says to Cain, \u201cSin is lurking at your door.\u201d It\u2019s Genesis 4\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014\u201cIts desire is for you, but you will have mastery over it.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think, too often, people think that: \u201cOh, you are struggling with pornography? Well, hey, let\u2019s just get you married;\u201d right? \u201cLet\u2019s find a \u2018sanctified outlet\u2019 for your sexual desire,\u201d\u2014not getting the fact that a predatory sexuality is a totally different <em>desire<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, when I started to examine, \u201cWhat is the root of my homosexuality?\u201d I did not come up with homosexuality. In the same way, when I go to my garden and I want to know the root of my weeds, I don\u2019t come up with the yellow dandelion head. When I really probed what was at the root of my homosexuality, it was pride. It was pride in wanting to invent myself on my own terms. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I married Kent, I became a submitted wife. There\u2019s not a lot of pride\u2014not in that\u2014nor is there humiliation in that\u2014but there\u2019s a sense of connection and a puzzle piece, now, that suddenly finds its home. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And could I say it for you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Because you were a feminist\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Yes, I was. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014looking for completion, looking to be all that\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014you were made to be in that rightly-related relationship with your husband, both submitting to Jesus Christ\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014you found\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> That\u2019s right; absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014you found the completion you longed for, as a feminist. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> I did, and that really gets us to that question that we haven\u2019t really gotten to. And that\u2019s the question about: \u201cWhat do we do now? What if gay marriage becomes normative?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019re heading in that direction. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> We are; and my question to you is: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cCoach us here. Help us think, as followers of Christ.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> We have to\u2014we have to\u2014we have to realize that well, first of all, we are <em>all <\/em>called to a sanctified sexuality. That includes our celibate\/single members of our churches\u2014they are not second-class citizens. It is shameful, on our part\u2014and I would say it is part of the, perhaps, the potential homophobia of the church\u2014when we do that to people. So, I think we need to value a sanctified celibate singleness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut when we talk about marriage, between a man and a woman, we need to talk about it in biblical terms, not in moral terms. We can\u2019t just say, \u201cThe Bible says, \u2018Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.\u2019\u201d You know, all that does is take the door and take it off the hinges and then wonder why the door doesn\u2019t stand up. The hinge is the Bible; and there are a couple of things that we, as Christians, need to be able to articulately defend. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne is that marriage is covenantal. It\u2019s a relationship that God establishes with us and guarantees by His Word. God does not make a covenant apart from the separate genders for marriage. So, it is covenantal. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe also have to remember that the picture of marriage is Christ and the church and that the completion factor\u2014and it\u2019s the complement factor. It\u2019s C-O-M-P-L-E-M-<strong>E<\/strong>-N-T. It\u2019s not an \u201cI\u201d. We\u2019re not talking about trophy wives. We\u2019re talking about a man and a woman complementing \/ fitting together in order to show the watching world a picture of Christ and the church. We\u2019ve likely not done that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, the other\u2014and I know this is a controversial topic\u2014not that we haven\u2019t talked about controversy, gentlemen! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, what\u2019s new; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> So, what\u2019s new? But I think\u2014if you do not have historical Adam, if you do not have literal six-day creation, if you do not have Adam, made from the dust, and then, Eve made from a rib of Adam\u2014you have no biblical basis for a woman\u2019s submission to man. You have <em>mutual<\/em> submission. So, I think we\u2019ve got to go back to the basics. I think we need to find a biblical defense for these things, and I think that we need to stop fearing that people are going to call us stupid because that\u2019s what I <em>did<\/em> and look where I am; right? [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes, and also, being afraid of being called a bigot as though you hate. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Right\u2014and we\u2019re getting there. We\u2019re getting there because I would absolutely say that to fail to defend homosexual marriage\u2014that is the contemporary unforgiveable sin\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> \u2014in our culture. So, I think we are getting there; but again\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> But we have to defend marriage with love. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> With love. So, that raises the question: \u201cWhat do I do with my gay or lesbian daughter? And how do I interface with this person I love?\u201d Let\u2019s just give a scenario. She was raised in the church. She made a profession of faith. \u201cNow, she\u2019s lost to me. What do I do?\u201d Those are really good questions. What you do is\u2014you love your child \/ you love your child. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, you do have to be careful, though, about this business about attending gay weddings. I mean, I think you can love someone without giving a <em>false<\/em> blessing because\u2014think about it\u2014you want to be there on the other side. You want to be able to be there, standing with a unified Christian witness; but you can still love. You can still enjoy your holidays together and be in each other\u2019s lives. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And they won\u2019t view it as a rejection that you didn\u2019t come to the wedding? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Well, they may\u2014they may\u2014but we talked earlier about, \u201cWhere do you draw the line?\u201d You know, you want to draw it carefully; and I can\u2019t tell you what to do. You know your family, and you know what to do. I\u2019m just saying that because: \u201cHow do we defend marriage?\u201d Well, one way that we defend marriage is to make sure that we are speaking in a unified voice about it. That\u2019s a hard one\u2014I know. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It is a hard one\u2014especially, if it was your daughter\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Yes, absolutely! Absolutely, and so\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014marrying another woman. You drew the line and said, \u201cSweetheart, I want you to know I will love you to the end; but I will not bless this union because it doesn\u2019t represent what God commanded a man and a woman to merge together in a covenant with God.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Right. \u201cBut I\u2019m not cutting you out.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> \u201cI want you and your partner here for Christmas, and Thanksgiving, and\u2026\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You know, there is a lot more we could talk about here; and Rosaria, I want to say, \u201cThanks for your book,\u201d\u2014how this kind of sounds funny, coming from somebody who got a spanking in the eighth-grade English class\u2014but how well-written it is and how entertaining\u2014but also just allow us to peek into your life and to hear what transformation sounds like and what was going on in your soul, at the same time. There is a lot in this book that I\u2019d recommend. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI just want to say, \u201cThanks for being on our broadcast and hope you\u2019ll come back again someday.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Rosaria:<\/strong> Thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And I hope listeners will get a copy of your book\u2014both your first book which is called <em>The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert<\/em> and your brand-new book which is called <em>Openness Unhindered: Further Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert on Sexual Identity and Union with Christ<\/em>. We\u2019ve got copies of both books in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI would encourage our listeners: \u201cGo to FamilyLifeToday.com to request a copy of either or both books.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, Rosaria\u2019s first book is called <em>The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert<\/em>. Her new book is called <em>Openness Unhindered: Further Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert on Sexual Identity and Union in Christ<\/em>. You can order these books from FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY\u20141-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, this issue that we\u2019ve talked about today is\u2014well, at some level, it\u2019s the defining issue of our day. In this culture\u2014who we are going to be, as a people\u2014is wrapped up in how we respond to this issue. I think we have to be coached, and I think we have to be guided. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI hope that\u2019s what today\u2019s program has provided. When we put these programs together, our prayer is always that you will find both help and hope as you listen to the conversations we have, here on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I\u2019m grateful for those of you who stand with this ministry as financial supporters. We are listener-supported. The cost of doing all that we do is covered by folks, like you, who make this ministry possible with your donations in support of the work of <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you\u2019d like to help us with a donation today, go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link in the upper right-hand corner of the screen that says, \u201cI CARE,\u201d and you can make an online donation on our website. Again, it\u2019s FamilyLifeToday.com. Or call, 1-800-FL-TODAY. You can make your donation over the phone. If you\u2019d like to mail a donation to us, our address is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, we hope you can tune in for a laugh or two. Our friend, Michael Jr., is going to stop by. We\u2019re going to talk about his life, and how God is at work in his life, and through his ministry. It\u2019s going to be a great visit. Hope you can tune in for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2015 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/303593","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=303593"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=303593"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=303593"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=303593"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=303593"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=303593"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=303593"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}