{"id":303233,"date":"2014-10-16T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2014-10-16T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/sexually-involved-yes-no-maybe\/"},"modified":"2014-10-16T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2014-10-16T15:00:00","slug":"sexually-involved-yes-no-maybe","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/sexually-involved-yes-no-maybe\/","title":{"rendered":"Sexually Involved-Yes, No, Maybe?"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Pastors Gerald Hiestand and Jay Thomas share a biblical theology of dating aimed at persuading a new generation of Christians to get serious about honoring Christ with their sexuality.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-10-16.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"21.2M","filesize_raw":"22232904","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2817],"tags":[5201,5470,5472,5471],"podcast_series":[7908],"cwp_profile":[9281,9282],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-303233","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-choosing-a-spouse","tag-cohabitation","tag-dating-friendships","tag-practicing-divorce","tag-practicing-marriage","podcast_series-sex-dating-and-relationships","cwp_profile-gerald-hiestand","cwp_profile-jay-thomas","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/303233\/sexually-involved-yes-no-maybe","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/303233\/sexually-involved-yes-no-maybe","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"QdE4JzLUmn\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/sexually-involved-yes-no-maybe\/\">Sexually Involved-Yes, No, Maybe?<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/sexually-involved-yes-no-maybe\/embed\/#?secret=QdE4JzLUmn\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Sexually Involved-Yes, No, Maybe?&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"QdE4JzLUmn\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-10-16.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-10-16.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>If your children have moved into middle school, you\u2019ve had the talk with them about the birds and the bees; right?\u00a0 Have you had the talk with them about how far is too far?\u00a0 Here\u2019s author, Gerald Hiestand. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>When I\u2019m talking to parents, who have kids who are pre-adolescent, they are very excited to get clarity on this issue. When I\u2019m talking to parents, who have kids who are in high school\u2014who are already in dating relationships\u2014it\u2019s like a big sigh. So, that\u2019s why I always encourage parents, \u201cDon\u2019t start thinking about it when your kid turns 14\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cor 13. You have to have some clarity in your own heart and mind <em>before<\/em> they come into adolescence.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, October 16<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019re going to see if we can help provide some clarity and some biblical thinking today about sex, dating, and relationships. Stay tuned. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. You know, one of the standard interview questions\u2014this is just a little Interview 101 for our listeners, who may wonder about\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Oh, I thought maybe you were instructing me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>No, no, no. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>We\u2019re coming up on our anniversary of being on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, and I thought maybe you were\u2014[Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I am done coaching you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014taking me back to 101. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I\u2019ve done <em>all<\/em> of the coaching I can possibly do. [Laughter]\u00a0 But one of the standard questions for young interviewers\u2014when you are interviewing an author\u2014is to say, \u201cSo, tell me, \u2018Why did you write this book?\u201d\u00a0 And I am curious\u2014the two guys we\u2019ve got in here\u2014\u201cWhy did they pick\u201d\u2014they could have picked anything they wanted to\u2014to write on\u2014in the theological world. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>They have written a book called <em>Sex, Dating, and Relationships<\/em>. This is a great book for parents, for singles, and really for the Christian community to think rightly about who we are, from a human sexuality standpoint. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And both of these guys are married\u2014so the dating part is part of the past. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, we\u2019ll just leave it at that. [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I was wondering where you were going with that. Were we moving to Radio Interviewing 201?\u00a0 [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGerald Hiestand and Jay Thomas join us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Jay\/Gerald, welcome to the broadcast. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Great to be here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>Thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Good to have you guys with us. Gerald is Senior Associate Pastor of Calvary Memorial Church near Chicago. Jay is Senior Pastor of Chapel Hill Bible Church in none other than the City of Blue\u2014Chapel Hill, North Carolina. They have collaborated together to write a book about our human sexuality. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou guys really talk about, in this book, how the Christian community is really a mess when it comes to thinking rightly about this. Really, the line seems to converge in two places\u2014one, with Christian singles\u2014and the other, with parents, as they are instructing their kids.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShare with our listeners how the Christian community isn\u2019t thinking right about our sexuality. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Yes, there is a recent article that just came out in <em>Relevant<\/em> magazine. I don\u2019t have it here in front of me, but the statistics were rather disturbing. There was ultimately about 20 percent of evangelical singles, between the ages of 18 and 29, are remaining abstinent\u2014so something is not working. There seems to be some sort of breakdown there. I thought that seemed high. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I talked to the people\u2014the singles at my church. I kind of read that statistic to them and kind of get their thoughts like: \u201cHey, does this seem a little high?\u00a0 It seems high to me.\u201d\u00a0 And they said, \u201cActually, it seems a little low, based upon our experience.\u201d\u00a0 So, that\u2014again, statistics, you don\u2019t know what you do with them\u2014but clearly, there is a breakdown. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I think the thing that we\u2014Jay worked with college students\u2014I was a youth pastor in a former life for a while. I think just the question of purity\u2014I think is getting dropped\u2014not on the question of pre-marital sex\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014that I think you can even talk to a non-Christian and say, \u201cWhat do you think the Christian standard is on sex before marriage?\u201d\u00a0 They would, at least, <em>know<\/em> what that is. So, I think there is clarity there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat we are trying to do, with the book, and where we think there is a real breakdown is pre-marital sexual ethics\u2014like, \u201cWhere do the boundaries get drawn beyond just, \u2018Don\u2019t have sexual intercourse,\u2019 but where do the boundaries get drawn <em>before<\/em> that?\u201d\u00a0 There is just not a lot of clarity\u2014from the church coming to parents \/ from parents coming to kids. It tends just to be a free-for-all there, at that point. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, but you remember being an adolescent. Everybody\u2019s questions, back when I was an adolescent, was, \u201cOkay, I know how far you can\u2019t go\u2019 but how far can you go?\u201d\u00a0 I mean, that question has been asked in youth groups since the Dark Ages\u2014I have to presume. You work in a college town. Do you find that what Gerald was experiencing, in Chicago, is the same thing that you were hearing from college students in Chapel Hill?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>Absolutely. I think that question is the perennial question. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEither it can drive you toward a bit of legalism\u2014because it\u2019s always about some kind of hard-and-fast line. As long as you don\u2019t cross that\u2014well, your heart must be right; you know?\u2014if it comes to this external behavior \/ kind of mechanical perspective on sexual ethics. Or\u2014and I think this is what\u2019s happening, now, with young people\u2014they are getting disheartened with the very question of how far is too far on sexual ethics and a bunch of other ethical issues. Permissiveness is now kind of the rule of the day and, \u201cLet\u2019s focus our energy on things like social justice and clean drinking water,\u201d\u2014which are wonderful things\u2014but ethics, in general\u2014I find young people are getting tired of the questions because of a bit of legalism of Christianity of their parents or generations past. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, I think they are getting tired of it because, I think, they want the boundaries removed. Honestly, I\u2019m not surprised by the statistics you are talking about. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think what happens, though\u2014when you say those statistics, the average parent, who is raising a young person today, goes: \u201cOh my goodness!\u00a0 What in the world are we going to do?\u201d\u00a0 So, how do we begin to address this? In other words, help a parent decide: \u201cHow should they think about sex and communicate a godly perspective about sex to their children, as they grow up?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes, if it\u2019s not a boundary approach that you are taking, what kind of approach should you be taking?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Well, I would say that there is a boundary that needs to be set up. So, I mean, Jay\u2019s making a fine point. I think where the problem is\u2014is when the boundaries are arbitrary. So, here\u2019s what we tend to give young people\u2014we say\u2014we give them a biblical standard: \u201cBe pure,\u201d which you can rub around like a wax nose. I mean, what does that really mean?\u00a0 Or you give them an objective personal opinion like: \u201cKeep it above the neck,\u201d or \u201cDon\u2019t do anything with your hands,\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014like we give some sort of personal opinion, but there is no real biblical authority that backs that up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat we\u2019ve really tried to do with the book is to give a biblical objective opinion\u2014so, not just a biblical subjective opinion or an objective personal opinion\u2014but a biblical objective opinion. That lack of clarity, I think, is what\u2019s leading to a lot of confusion. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, the same group of statistics\u2014they asked the people that they polled, \u201cDo you believe that sex should be reserved for marriage?\u201d\u00a0 Seventy-five percent of the people said, \u201cYes.\u201d Again, there is clarity, as to what the standard is\u2014there, at that point\u2014but beyond that, what we tend to do, as pastors or parents, in getting so fuzzy in opening up the door to allowing sexual activity to begin in pre-marital relationships\u2014which, I mean, runs counter to the way that even just we work, biologically and physically\u2014and that we\u2019ve opened up the door here\u2014that it\u2019s no wonder that we are not able to shut it by the time we get to sexual intercourse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>When we were raising our kids\u2014we had six\u2014we used to talk about: \u201cThere are two kinds of kisses. There is a peck or a kiss that\u2019s an \u2018I like you,\u2019 kiss that does not demand a sexual response. Then, there is a kiss that says more than \u2018I like you, and you are a great person to be with,\u2019 that goes over beyond a line and demands that the other person begin to respond. There is a clear distinction between those two kisses,\u201d we told our kids. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs parents, we\u2019ve got to decide what we are going to do with all of these standards\u2014what are you going to challenge your kids with?\u00a0 Both of you guys are parents; right?\u00a0 What are the ages of your kids?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Mine are turning ten, seven, and four this summer. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Okay; and Jay, yours?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>Nine, seven, and two five-year-olds. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Okay, so, let\u2019s put the oldest in here in the studio with you, right now. What are you going to challenge those oldest children with?\u00a0 What kind of standard\u2014what kind of approach, to the heart and to the boundaries, are you going to take?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>The biblical objective approach that you talked about taking\u2014okay?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Okay, your kids are across the table. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Let\u2019s go, guys. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>Well, we\u2019re a fairly affectionate family. So, that\u2019s not good when one person gets a cold because the rest of us are inevitably going to get it\u2014[Laughter]\u2014a lot of hugs and kisses. So, I\u2019d say to Peter, my oldest\u2014I\u2019d say: \u201cPeter, there is a kiss you would be comfortable giving your momma. And when you get a little bit older, you\u2019re going to start to feel a certain way about girls. Your body is going to have some natural ways of wanting to express yourself, especially with a particular girl you might have feelings for. That expression you would never want to give to your mom. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt would be the most reviling thing in your heart and mind ever.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>[Laughter] You\u2019re doing a great job, Dad. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>\u201cSo, we have two categories of showing affection. Affection that is fine for your sister or for your mom\u2014even, we will hug and kiss\u2014but there is a different type of affection God has given us that\u2019s only for a man and a wife.\u201d\u00a0 I would begin to break it down like that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat I would want to eventually do is talk about the why: \u201cWhy is it that God has set up life like that\u2014where there is a certain type of affection that is totally fine for any kind of relationship to say\u2014\u2018I love you \/ I appreciate you,\u2019\u2014and a different type of affection for a husband and a wife\u2014that is only for a husband and a wife?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And that\u2019s where we do get to some of the biblical objective standards\u2014that you are talking about\u2014so it\u2019s not so much about: \u201cWhat can I do?\u201dand \u201cWhat can\u2019t I do?\u201d but: \u201cWhat am I trying to incite \/ what am I trying to\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cwhat response am I asking for?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Yes\u2014to the point Jay is making\u2014I think what we are wanting to say in the book is that\u2014not that this is just a good idea\u2014like: \u201cHere is a good way to think about purity\u2014think about how you would kiss your mom,\u201d\u2014but, if you are committed, as we\u2014I think all Christians\/evangelicals, mostly\u2014we are committed to the idea that sexual activity should be reserved for marriage. I mean, that\u2019s a pretty standard approach. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Whether we are living that out or not\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Right, whether we are living that out or not\u2014we, at least, agree to that, theoretically. What\u2019s happened is\u2014we\u2019ve redefined sexual activity so narrowly to only mean sexual intercourse. We\u2019ve lost sight of the fact that sexual activity extends far beyond that. There just simply is a kind of physical touch, that stops short of sexual intercourse\u2014that is inherently sexual. There is just no way to parse it out in any other kind of direction. Once the activity becomes sexual, then, it should be reserved for the marriage relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019ve already crossed into the realm of sexual immorality. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>When I was a junior in high school, I was at a hockey game one night with a girl\u2014we were on our first date. In the middle of the hockey game, she put her hand on my knee. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>This was how many years ago, Bob?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This was 1973. I remember\u2014I can show you the seat where I was sitting in the arena; okay?\u00a0 [Laughter]\u00a0 That\u2019s a pretty innocent gesture\u2014a hand on the knee. If I put my hand on your knee, you wouldn\u2019t think anything; but boy, I thought something that night, as I was on that date. It\u2019s the same action. So, how do I, as a teenager, try to figure out: \u201cThis hand on this knee is okay \/ her hand on my knee is not\u201d?\u00a0 How do I work that through in my heart?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Yes, I would say that the first thing to be observed is that there are some activities that are\u2014inherently, all the time, every time, without exception\u2014sexual. So, there are certain forms of kissing that are just always sexual. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe best way to like just kind of bring clarity on this is to think about it in the family context\u2014like Jay brought up. That kind of kiss would never be appropriate, ever, between a brother and a sister, or between a mother and a son, or a father and daughter. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think the baseline is determining which activities are, inherently, sexual all the time. Those need to be reserved for the marriage relationship. At the minimum, any kind of what we call\u2014make-out kissing or passionate kissing\u2014we just need to own that those are sexual\u2014that\u2019s a sexual activity and needs to be kept in the marriage bond. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Okay, time out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>No passionate kissing until after \u201cI do,\u201d\u2014is that what you are saying?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Yes, because passionate kissing is clearly a sexual activity. I mean\u2014we don\u2019t want to say that. I remember, as a student, my pastor would talk to us about our dating relationships. We would say, \u201cHow is your physical relationship?\u201d\u00a0 And that kind of masks what\u2019s going on there. Shaking hands\u2014that\u2019s physical; right?\u00a0 But making out isn\u2019t just a physical relationship\u2014that\u2019s sexual. You\u2019ve moved into a sexual activity, at that point. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe don\u2019t talk about passionate kissing as a sexual activity, but it clearly is a sexual activity because it would never be appropriate between biological relatives. The reason it wouldn\u2019t be is because it\u2019s sexual. We inherently know it to be sexual. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Okay, so, if you said that\u2014your oldest is a boy, just turned ten\u2014if he said, \u201cDad, are you saying that passionate kissing before marriage is a sin?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>I\u2019d say, \u201cYes.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And he\u2019d say, \u201cWhy?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>I\u2019d say, \u201cBecause it\u2019s a sexual activity, and because sex is to be reserved for the marriage relationship.\u201d\u00a0 I mean, obviously, there is more that could be talked about there; but just like\u2014you\u2019ve got the elevator sales pitch\u2014if you\u2019ve got two minutes to make your point\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>No doubt. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>\u2014I would say: \u201cHey, listen. Sexual activity is to be reserved for the marriage relationship. Anything that is sexual should be reserved for the marriage relationship. How do you know, son, whether this is a sexual activity or not?\u00a0 Well, if it would be wrong for you to do with your little sister or your mom, because it would seem that that\u2019s something not right\u2014sexually-inappropriate\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014then, that\u2019s how you know it\u2019s a sexual activity and should be reserved for the marriage relationship.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You know, I\u2019m glad you answered the way you did because there are some of our listeners here who are, right now, they are going, \u201cWhat planet is this show from?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I\u2019m sitting here thinking, \u201cDid you guys expect to sell any copies of this book with what you are talking about?\u201d\u00a0 [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I wrote a book, one time, that one of the responses to the book was to throw it across the room. This one is not even going to be purchased because there are going to be people, who say, \u201cThat\u2019s got such a standard that is totally different from the culture,\u201d but that\u2019s really what you are after here. You are after a biblical standard\u2014more of an approach to this area of sexual ethics, basing decisions and boundaries on what the Bible says; right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Yes, I think the big failure of the Christian community, right now, is the failure to really reckon with what constitutes sexual activity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>I mean, everyone agrees sexual activity should be reserved for marriage; but no one wants to acknowledge that certain kinds of kissing are\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014inherently, all the time, without exception\u2014can\u2019t be conceived of as any other thing than a sexual activity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Jay, do you know who the first person I ever heard propose this kind of a standard was?\u2014any idea?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>No. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>She lived in your neighborhood, when you were at seminary up at Gordon College. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>Elisabeth Elliot. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I remember, in college, somebody said: \u201cHave you read this new book by this Elisabeth Elliot lady?\u00a0 She\u2019s saying you shouldn\u2019t kiss until you get married.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And I remember laughing at the absurdity of that in the 1970s. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Okay, we are <em>long<\/em> past the 1970s. Here you are upholding this standard. Is anybody going to listen to this?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>The parents of my church graciously\u2014I guess because they love me\u2014decided they would get the book, and they\u2019d read through it with the youth group. The response\u2014I think Gerald and I have both been getting is\u2014\u201cI can\u2019t say that I <em>like<\/em> your conclusions;\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014but as I read the book and you guys go through the Scriptures, I\u2019m having a hard time\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cthinking of a way around it.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>So, whether I have youth beginning to curb their dating relationships or not, I\u2019m still talking with some of them; but no one, I think, has come back at us with: \u201cHey, here is a total hole in your argument. Exegetically, you left this whole bit out.\u201d\u00a0 You know what I mean?\u00a0 We\u2019re trying to just get back to the Scriptures and say, \u201cLook, do the Scriptures allow us to draw the boundary markers where we have?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEven as conservative evangelical Christians, we\u2019ve just kind of arbitrarily said that certain forms of affection, as long as it\u2019s not intercourse or near intercourse, are fine for a dating relationship. \u201cThe reason maybe you should be careful there is because it gets your engines going. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cSo, be careful because of the way it begins to draw toward intercourse\u201d; but there is no sense of the activity is, itself, sexual. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>When we were teaching our kids\u2014and when I taught a sixth-grade Sunday school class\u2014that ultimately became the content for <em>Passport2Purity<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, which is a father\/son, mother\/daughter getaway before they encounter the hormones of the teenage years\u2014I used to quote\u2014and still do quote\u2014Romans, Chapter 16. This is kind of what we built our teaching around. Paul said, in Chapter 16, verse 19: \u201cFor your obedience is known to all so that I rejoice over you, but I want you to be wise as to what is good and innocent as to what is evil.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd what I used to say to our kids: \u201cYou don\u2019t have to like what I\u2019m saying to you and the challenges we\u2019re giving you, as parents. We\u2019re trying to protect and preserve your innocence so that\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014when you get married\u2014 you\u2019ll have all of your innocence that you can possibly have to give to your spouse on that wedding night.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat I say to parents\u2014and I have had many parents tell me they don\u2019t like what I\u2019ve done and what I\u2019ve said\u2014and I say: \u201cYou know, that\u2019s fine. Tell me what your standard is. If you don\u2019t buy that, then, what are you going to challenge your children with?\u00a0 What\u2019s the standard?\u00a0 And by the way, what\u2019s the basis for that standard?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Yes. In talking to parents in the workshops that I\u2019ve done for parents on this\u2014what I have found is\u2014a lot of parents have been given this same ambiguous answer when they were growing up, through church, that our culture has. So, while it\u2019s challenging to parents\u2014they\u2019re looking for clarity themselves\u2014because, as their kids are coming into the adolescent years, they\u2019re trying\u2014they have to give something to their kids, but they don\u2019t really know what to give them except a bunch of kind of personal opinions and some subjective standards. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>What I\u2019ve found is\u2014that when I am talking to parents, who have kids who are pre-adolescent, they are very excited to get clarity on this issue. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I\u2019m talking to parents, who have kids who are in high school\u2014who are already in dating relationships\u2014it\u2019s like a big sigh and a \u201cOh, how am I going to\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u201cHow do we reel this back in?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cback this up \/ reel it back in?\u201d\u2014yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>So, that\u2019s why I always encourage parents to begin thinking about this\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>\u2014don\u2019t start thinking about it when your kid turns 14\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>\u2014or 13. You have to have some clarity, in your own heart and mind, <em>before<\/em> they\u2019re coming into adolescence. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>To that point, it\u2019s why <em>Passport2Purity<\/em> is so effective for a 10-\/11-\/12-year-old\u2014and a parent to go through it with a child so that they have that standard that they\u2019ve talked about in place. They\u2019ve discussed it, and the child has had an opportunity to buy in before the hormones begin to short-circuit all the teaching. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And not all of our listeners know what <em>Passport2Purity<\/em> is. It\u2019s a resource that we created, years ago, to give parents an opportunity to have a weekend getaway\u2014a couple of days\u2014where you spend time listening to some CDs with your son or your daughter, as they head into adolescence. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOur team just recently went back and refreshed the whole <em>Passport2Purity<\/em> experience. We added new music \/ we updated the adventure journal that your son or daughter receives. We\u2019ve been getting great response from folks, who have ordered the new <em>Passport2Purity<\/em> resource and have gone on one of these <em>Passport2Purity<\/em> getaways with a child. If you\u2019d like to find out more about <em>Passport2Purity<\/em>, go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link at the top of the page that says, \u201cGO DEEPER.\u201d\u00a0 The information is available there. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. Look for <em>Passport2Purity<\/em> when you go there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAlso, be sure to get a copy of the book we\u2019ve been talking about today\u2014<em>Sex, Dating, and Relationships<\/em>\u2014by Gerald Hiestand and Jay Thomas. We\u2019ve got this book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. In fact, I sent a copy of this book to my son when he was a senior in college and sent another one to another son who was a freshman in college, at the time. They read it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey gave it a thumbs-up. In fact, they passed it on to their friends\u2014so, a couple endorsements from the young Lepine men, who have read this book. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, it\u2019s called <em>Sex, Dating, and Relationships<\/em>. Go, online, to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information. Click the link, again, at the top of the page that says, \u201cGO DEEPER\u201d; or call, toll-free, 1-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, quickly, I just want to say a word of thanks, Dennis, to the folks who make <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> possible\u2014folks who are in sync with our mission and who partner with us in making all that <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is about happen. We are a non-profit\u2014we are listener-supported. We couldn\u2019t do what we do\u2014that includes this radio program, our website, our resources, our events\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014none of that would be possible without the help we receive from folks, like you, who either donate each month or who, from time to time, will pitch in and say, \u201cI\u2019d like to help out and support what you guys are doing because I think it\u2019s important.\u201d\u00a0 We\u2019re grateful for your support. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, we\u2019d like to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d for any donation you can give today by sending you something that Barbara Rainey has created for families. It\u2019s a chalkboard in the shape of a house. At the top of it, it says, \u201cIn this home we give thanks for\u201d and, then, it\u2019s blank. You can take a piece of chalk and write there what you\u2019re thankful for. This is part of her Every Thine Home<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> collection of resources. It\u2019s our gift to you when you support this ministry with a donation. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click in the upper right-hand corner of the screen, where it says, \u201cI Care.\u201d\u00a0 Make an online donation, and we\u2019ll send out the chalkboard to you. Or you can request the chalkboard when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY and make a donation over the phone. If you prefer, you can write a check and mail it to: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. Make sure you include a note that says, \u201cI\u2019d like the chalkboard.\u201d\u00a0 We\u2019re happy to send it to you, and we do appreciate your support of the ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd let me encourage you to be back with us again tomorrow when we are going to continue our conversation with Gerald Hiestand and Jay Thomas\u2014continue talking about young people, sex, dating, and relationships. I hope you can be here for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2014 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["21.2M"],"filesize_raw":["22232904"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-303233.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-303233.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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Gerald Hiestand and Jay Thomas share a biblical theology of dating aimed at persuading a new generation of Christians to get serious about honoring Christ with their sexuality.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-10-16.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>If your children have moved into middle school, you\u2019ve had the talk with them about the birds and the bees; right?\u00a0 Have you had the talk with them about how far is too far?\u00a0 Here\u2019s author, Gerald Hiestand. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>When I\u2019m talking to parents, who have kids who are pre-adolescent, they are very excited to get clarity on this issue. When I\u2019m talking to parents, who have kids who are in high school\u2014who are already in dating relationships\u2014it\u2019s like a big sigh. So, that\u2019s why I always encourage parents, \u201cDon\u2019t start thinking about it when your kid turns 14\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cor 13. You have to have some clarity in your own heart and mind <em>before<\/em> they come into adolescence.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, October 16<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019re going to see if we can help provide some clarity and some biblical thinking today about sex, dating, and relationships. Stay tuned. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. You know, one of the standard interview questions\u2014this is just a little Interview 101 for our listeners, who may wonder about\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Oh, I thought maybe you were instructing me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>No, no, no. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>We\u2019re coming up on our anniversary of being on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, and I thought maybe you were\u2014[Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I am done coaching you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014taking me back to 101. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I\u2019ve done <em>all<\/em> of the coaching I can possibly do. [Laughter]\u00a0 But one of the standard questions for young interviewers\u2014when you are interviewing an author\u2014is to say, \u201cSo, tell me, \u2018Why did you write this book?\u201d\u00a0 And I am curious\u2014the two guys we\u2019ve got in here\u2014\u201cWhy did they pick\u201d\u2014they could have picked anything they wanted to\u2014to write on\u2014in the theological world. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>They have written a book called <em>Sex, Dating, and Relationships<\/em>. This is a great book for parents, for singles, and really for the Christian community to think rightly about who we are, from a human sexuality standpoint. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And both of these guys are married\u2014so the dating part is part of the past. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, we\u2019ll just leave it at that. [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I was wondering where you were going with that. Were we moving to Radio Interviewing 201?\u00a0 [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGerald Hiestand and Jay Thomas join us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Jay\/Gerald, welcome to the broadcast. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Great to be here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>Thank you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Good to have you guys with us. Gerald is Senior Associate Pastor of Calvary Memorial Church near Chicago. Jay is Senior Pastor of Chapel Hill Bible Church in none other than the City of Blue\u2014Chapel Hill, North Carolina. They have collaborated together to write a book about our human sexuality. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou guys really talk about, in this book, how the Christian community is really a mess when it comes to thinking rightly about this. Really, the line seems to converge in two places\u2014one, with Christian singles\u2014and the other, with parents, as they are instructing their kids.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShare with our listeners how the Christian community isn\u2019t thinking right about our sexuality. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Yes, there is a recent article that just came out in <em>Relevant<\/em> magazine. I don\u2019t have it here in front of me, but the statistics were rather disturbing. There was ultimately about 20 percent of evangelical singles, between the ages of 18 and 29, are remaining abstinent\u2014so something is not working. There seems to be some sort of breakdown there. I thought that seemed high. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I talked to the people\u2014the singles at my church. I kind of read that statistic to them and kind of get their thoughts like: \u201cHey, does this seem a little high?\u00a0 It seems high to me.\u201d\u00a0 And they said, \u201cActually, it seems a little low, based upon our experience.\u201d\u00a0 So, that\u2014again, statistics, you don\u2019t know what you do with them\u2014but clearly, there is a breakdown. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I think the thing that we\u2014Jay worked with college students\u2014I was a youth pastor in a former life for a while. I think just the question of purity\u2014I think is getting dropped\u2014not on the question of pre-marital sex\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014that I think you can even talk to a non-Christian and say, \u201cWhat do you think the Christian standard is on sex before marriage?\u201d\u00a0 They would, at least, <em>know<\/em> what that is. So, I think there is clarity there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat we are trying to do, with the book, and where we think there is a real breakdown is pre-marital sexual ethics\u2014like, \u201cWhere do the boundaries get drawn beyond just, \u2018Don\u2019t have sexual intercourse,\u2019 but where do the boundaries get drawn <em>before<\/em> that?\u201d\u00a0 There is just not a lot of clarity\u2014from the church coming to parents \/ from parents coming to kids. It tends just to be a free-for-all there, at that point. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, but you remember being an adolescent. Everybody\u2019s questions, back when I was an adolescent, was, \u201cOkay, I know how far you can\u2019t go\u2019 but how far can you go?\u201d\u00a0 I mean, that question has been asked in youth groups since the Dark Ages\u2014I have to presume. You work in a college town. Do you find that what Gerald was experiencing, in Chicago, is the same thing that you were hearing from college students in Chapel Hill?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>Absolutely. I think that question is the perennial question. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEither it can drive you toward a bit of legalism\u2014because it\u2019s always about some kind of hard-and-fast line. As long as you don\u2019t cross that\u2014well, your heart must be right; you know?\u2014if it comes to this external behavior \/ kind of mechanical perspective on sexual ethics. Or\u2014and I think this is what\u2019s happening, now, with young people\u2014they are getting disheartened with the very question of how far is too far on sexual ethics and a bunch of other ethical issues. Permissiveness is now kind of the rule of the day and, \u201cLet\u2019s focus our energy on things like social justice and clean drinking water,\u201d\u2014which are wonderful things\u2014but ethics, in general\u2014I find young people are getting tired of the questions because of a bit of legalism of Christianity of their parents or generations past. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Well, I think they are getting tired of it because, I think, they want the boundaries removed. Honestly, I\u2019m not surprised by the statistics you are talking about. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think what happens, though\u2014when you say those statistics, the average parent, who is raising a young person today, goes: \u201cOh my goodness!\u00a0 What in the world are we going to do?\u201d\u00a0 So, how do we begin to address this? In other words, help a parent decide: \u201cHow should they think about sex and communicate a godly perspective about sex to their children, as they grow up?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes, if it\u2019s not a boundary approach that you are taking, what kind of approach should you be taking?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Well, I would say that there is a boundary that needs to be set up. So, I mean, Jay\u2019s making a fine point. I think where the problem is\u2014is when the boundaries are arbitrary. So, here\u2019s what we tend to give young people\u2014we say\u2014we give them a biblical standard: \u201cBe pure,\u201d which you can rub around like a wax nose. I mean, what does that really mean?\u00a0 Or you give them an objective personal opinion like: \u201cKeep it above the neck,\u201d or \u201cDon\u2019t do anything with your hands,\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014like we give some sort of personal opinion, but there is no real biblical authority that backs that up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat we\u2019ve really tried to do with the book is to give a biblical objective opinion\u2014so, not just a biblical subjective opinion or an objective personal opinion\u2014but a biblical objective opinion. That lack of clarity, I think, is what\u2019s leading to a lot of confusion. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, the same group of statistics\u2014they asked the people that they polled, \u201cDo you believe that sex should be reserved for marriage?\u201d\u00a0 Seventy-five percent of the people said, \u201cYes.\u201d Again, there is clarity, as to what the standard is\u2014there, at that point\u2014but beyond that, what we tend to do, as pastors or parents, in getting so fuzzy in opening up the door to allowing sexual activity to begin in pre-marital relationships\u2014which, I mean, runs counter to the way that even just we work, biologically and physically\u2014and that we\u2019ve opened up the door here\u2014that it\u2019s no wonder that we are not able to shut it by the time we get to sexual intercourse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>When we were raising our kids\u2014we had six\u2014we used to talk about: \u201cThere are two kinds of kisses. There is a peck or a kiss that\u2019s an \u2018I like you,\u2019 kiss that does not demand a sexual response. Then, there is a kiss that says more than \u2018I like you, and you are a great person to be with,\u2019 that goes over beyond a line and demands that the other person begin to respond. There is a clear distinction between those two kisses,\u201d we told our kids. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs parents, we\u2019ve got to decide what we are going to do with all of these standards\u2014what are you going to challenge your kids with?\u00a0 Both of you guys are parents; right?\u00a0 What are the ages of your kids?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Mine are turning ten, seven, and four this summer. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Okay; and Jay, yours?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>Nine, seven, and two five-year-olds. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Okay, so, let\u2019s put the oldest in here in the studio with you, right now. What are you going to challenge those oldest children with?\u00a0 What kind of standard\u2014what kind of approach, to the heart and to the boundaries, are you going to take?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>The biblical objective approach that you talked about taking\u2014okay?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Okay, your kids are across the table. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Let\u2019s go, guys. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>Well, we\u2019re a fairly affectionate family. So, that\u2019s not good when one person gets a cold because the rest of us are inevitably going to get it\u2014[Laughter]\u2014a lot of hugs and kisses. So, I\u2019d say to Peter, my oldest\u2014I\u2019d say: \u201cPeter, there is a kiss you would be comfortable giving your momma. And when you get a little bit older, you\u2019re going to start to feel a certain way about girls. Your body is going to have some natural ways of wanting to express yourself, especially with a particular girl you might have feelings for. That expression you would never want to give to your mom. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt would be the most reviling thing in your heart and mind ever.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>[Laughter] You\u2019re doing a great job, Dad. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>\u201cSo, we have two categories of showing affection. Affection that is fine for your sister or for your mom\u2014even, we will hug and kiss\u2014but there is a different type of affection God has given us that\u2019s only for a man and a wife.\u201d\u00a0 I would begin to break it down like that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat I would want to eventually do is talk about the why: \u201cWhy is it that God has set up life like that\u2014where there is a certain type of affection that is totally fine for any kind of relationship to say\u2014\u2018I love you \/ I appreciate you,\u2019\u2014and a different type of affection for a husband and a wife\u2014that is only for a husband and a wife?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And that\u2019s where we do get to some of the biblical objective standards\u2014that you are talking about\u2014so it\u2019s not so much about: \u201cWhat can I do?\u201dand \u201cWhat can\u2019t I do?\u201d but: \u201cWhat am I trying to incite \/ what am I trying to\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cwhat response am I asking for?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Yes\u2014to the point Jay is making\u2014I think what we are wanting to say in the book is that\u2014not that this is just a good idea\u2014like: \u201cHere is a good way to think about purity\u2014think about how you would kiss your mom,\u201d\u2014but, if you are committed, as we\u2014I think all Christians\/evangelicals, mostly\u2014we are committed to the idea that sexual activity should be reserved for marriage. I mean, that\u2019s a pretty standard approach. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Whether we are living that out or not\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Right, whether we are living that out or not\u2014we, at least, agree to that, theoretically. What\u2019s happened is\u2014we\u2019ve redefined sexual activity so narrowly to only mean sexual intercourse. We\u2019ve lost sight of the fact that sexual activity extends far beyond that. There just simply is a kind of physical touch, that stops short of sexual intercourse\u2014that is inherently sexual. There is just no way to parse it out in any other kind of direction. Once the activity becomes sexual, then, it should be reserved for the marriage relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019ve already crossed into the realm of sexual immorality. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>When I was a junior in high school, I was at a hockey game one night with a girl\u2014we were on our first date. In the middle of the hockey game, she put her hand on my knee. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>This was how many years ago, Bob?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This was 1973. I remember\u2014I can show you the seat where I was sitting in the arena; okay?\u00a0 [Laughter]\u00a0 That\u2019s a pretty innocent gesture\u2014a hand on the knee. If I put my hand on your knee, you wouldn\u2019t think anything; but boy, I thought something that night, as I was on that date. It\u2019s the same action. So, how do I, as a teenager, try to figure out: \u201cThis hand on this knee is okay \/ her hand on my knee is not\u201d?\u00a0 How do I work that through in my heart?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Yes, I would say that the first thing to be observed is that there are some activities that are\u2014inherently, all the time, every time, without exception\u2014sexual. So, there are certain forms of kissing that are just always sexual. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe best way to like just kind of bring clarity on this is to think about it in the family context\u2014like Jay brought up. That kind of kiss would never be appropriate, ever, between a brother and a sister, or between a mother and a son, or a father and daughter. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think the baseline is determining which activities are, inherently, sexual all the time. Those need to be reserved for the marriage relationship. At the minimum, any kind of what we call\u2014make-out kissing or passionate kissing\u2014we just need to own that those are sexual\u2014that\u2019s a sexual activity and needs to be kept in the marriage bond. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Okay, time out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>No passionate kissing until after \u201cI do,\u201d\u2014is that what you are saying?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Yes, because passionate kissing is clearly a sexual activity. I mean\u2014we don\u2019t want to say that. I remember, as a student, my pastor would talk to us about our dating relationships. We would say, \u201cHow is your physical relationship?\u201d\u00a0 And that kind of masks what\u2019s going on there. Shaking hands\u2014that\u2019s physical; right?\u00a0 But making out isn\u2019t just a physical relationship\u2014that\u2019s sexual. You\u2019ve moved into a sexual activity, at that point. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe don\u2019t talk about passionate kissing as a sexual activity, but it clearly is a sexual activity because it would never be appropriate between biological relatives. The reason it wouldn\u2019t be is because it\u2019s sexual. We inherently know it to be sexual. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Okay, so, if you said that\u2014your oldest is a boy, just turned ten\u2014if he said, \u201cDad, are you saying that passionate kissing before marriage is a sin?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>I\u2019d say, \u201cYes.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And he\u2019d say, \u201cWhy?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>I\u2019d say, \u201cBecause it\u2019s a sexual activity, and because sex is to be reserved for the marriage relationship.\u201d\u00a0 I mean, obviously, there is more that could be talked about there; but just like\u2014you\u2019ve got the elevator sales pitch\u2014if you\u2019ve got two minutes to make your point\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>No doubt. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>\u2014I would say: \u201cHey, listen. Sexual activity is to be reserved for the marriage relationship. Anything that is sexual should be reserved for the marriage relationship. How do you know, son, whether this is a sexual activity or not?\u00a0 Well, if it would be wrong for you to do with your little sister or your mom, because it would seem that that\u2019s something not right\u2014sexually-inappropriate\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014then, that\u2019s how you know it\u2019s a sexual activity and should be reserved for the marriage relationship.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You know, I\u2019m glad you answered the way you did because there are some of our listeners here who are, right now, they are going, \u201cWhat planet is this show from?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I\u2019m sitting here thinking, \u201cDid you guys expect to sell any copies of this book with what you are talking about?\u201d\u00a0 [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I wrote a book, one time, that one of the responses to the book was to throw it across the room. This one is not even going to be purchased because there are going to be people, who say, \u201cThat\u2019s got such a standard that is totally different from the culture,\u201d but that\u2019s really what you are after here. You are after a biblical standard\u2014more of an approach to this area of sexual ethics, basing decisions and boundaries on what the Bible says; right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Yes, I think the big failure of the Christian community, right now, is the failure to really reckon with what constitutes sexual activity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>I mean, everyone agrees sexual activity should be reserved for marriage; but no one wants to acknowledge that certain kinds of kissing are\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014inherently, all the time, without exception\u2014can\u2019t be conceived of as any other thing than a sexual activity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Jay, do you know who the first person I ever heard propose this kind of a standard was?\u2014any idea?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>No. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>She lived in your neighborhood, when you were at seminary up at Gordon College. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>Elisabeth Elliot. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I remember, in college, somebody said: \u201cHave you read this new book by this Elisabeth Elliot lady?\u00a0 She\u2019s saying you shouldn\u2019t kiss until you get married.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And I remember laughing at the absurdity of that in the 1970s. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Okay, we are <em>long<\/em> past the 1970s. Here you are upholding this standard. Is anybody going to listen to this?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>The parents of my church graciously\u2014I guess because they love me\u2014decided they would get the book, and they\u2019d read through it with the youth group. The response\u2014I think Gerald and I have both been getting is\u2014\u201cI can\u2019t say that I <em>like<\/em> your conclusions;\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014but as I read the book and you guys go through the Scriptures, I\u2019m having a hard time\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cthinking of a way around it.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jay: <\/strong>So, whether I have youth beginning to curb their dating relationships or not, I\u2019m still talking with some of them; but no one, I think, has come back at us with: \u201cHey, here is a total hole in your argument. Exegetically, you left this whole bit out.\u201d\u00a0 You know what I mean?\u00a0 We\u2019re trying to just get back to the Scriptures and say, \u201cLook, do the Scriptures allow us to draw the boundary markers where we have?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEven as conservative evangelical Christians, we\u2019ve just kind of arbitrarily said that certain forms of affection, as long as it\u2019s not intercourse or near intercourse, are fine for a dating relationship. \u201cThe reason maybe you should be careful there is because it gets your engines going. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cSo, be careful because of the way it begins to draw toward intercourse\u201d; but there is no sense of the activity is, itself, sexual. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>When we were teaching our kids\u2014and when I taught a sixth-grade Sunday school class\u2014that ultimately became the content for <em>Passport2Purity<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, which is a father\/son, mother\/daughter getaway before they encounter the hormones of the teenage years\u2014I used to quote\u2014and still do quote\u2014Romans, Chapter 16. This is kind of what we built our teaching around. Paul said, in Chapter 16, verse 19: \u201cFor your obedience is known to all so that I rejoice over you, but I want you to be wise as to what is good and innocent as to what is evil.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd what I used to say to our kids: \u201cYou don\u2019t have to like what I\u2019m saying to you and the challenges we\u2019re giving you, as parents. We\u2019re trying to protect and preserve your innocence so that\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014when you get married\u2014 you\u2019ll have all of your innocence that you can possibly have to give to your spouse on that wedding night.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat I say to parents\u2014and I have had many parents tell me they don\u2019t like what I\u2019ve done and what I\u2019ve said\u2014and I say: \u201cYou know, that\u2019s fine. Tell me what your standard is. If you don\u2019t buy that, then, what are you going to challenge your children with?\u00a0 What\u2019s the standard?\u00a0 And by the way, what\u2019s the basis for that standard?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>Yes. In talking to parents in the workshops that I\u2019ve done for parents on this\u2014what I have found is\u2014a lot of parents have been given this same ambiguous answer when they were growing up, through church, that our culture has. So, while it\u2019s challenging to parents\u2014they\u2019re looking for clarity themselves\u2014because, as their kids are coming into the adolescent years, they\u2019re trying\u2014they have to give something to their kids, but they don\u2019t really know what to give them except a bunch of kind of personal opinions and some subjective standards. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>What I\u2019ve found is\u2014that when I am talking to parents, who have kids who are pre-adolescent, they are very excited to get clarity on this issue. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I\u2019m talking to parents, who have kids who are in high school\u2014who are already in dating relationships\u2014it\u2019s like a big sigh and a \u201cOh, how am I going to\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u201cHow do we reel this back in?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cback this up \/ reel it back in?\u201d\u2014yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>So, that\u2019s why I always encourage parents to begin thinking about this\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>\u2014don\u2019t start thinking about it when your kid turns 14\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gerald: <\/strong>\u2014or 13. You have to have some clarity, in your own heart and mind, <em>before<\/em> they\u2019re coming into adolescence. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>To that point, it\u2019s why <em>Passport2Purity<\/em> is so effective for a 10-\/11-\/12-year-old\u2014and a parent to go through it with a child so that they have that standard that they\u2019ve talked about in place. They\u2019ve discussed it, and the child has had an opportunity to buy in before the hormones begin to short-circuit all the teaching. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And not all of our listeners know what <em>Passport2Purity<\/em> is. It\u2019s a resource that we created, years ago, to give parents an opportunity to have a weekend getaway\u2014a couple of days\u2014where you spend time listening to some CDs with your son or your daughter, as they head into adolescence. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOur team just recently went back and refreshed the whole <em>Passport2Purity<\/em> experience. We added new music \/ we updated the adventure journal that your son or daughter receives. We\u2019ve been getting great response from folks, who have ordered the new <em>Passport2Purity<\/em> resource and have gone on one of these <em>Passport2Purity<\/em> getaways with a child. If you\u2019d like to find out more about <em>Passport2Purity<\/em>, go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link at the top of the page that says, \u201cGO DEEPER.\u201d\u00a0 The information is available there. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. Look for <em>Passport2Purity<\/em> when you go there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAlso, be sure to get a copy of the book we\u2019ve been talking about today\u2014<em>Sex, Dating, and Relationships<\/em>\u2014by Gerald Hiestand and Jay Thomas. We\u2019ve got this book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. In fact, I sent a copy of this book to my son when he was a senior in college and sent another one to another son who was a freshman in college, at the time. They read it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey gave it a thumbs-up. In fact, they passed it on to their friends\u2014so, a couple endorsements from the young Lepine men, who have read this book. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, it\u2019s called <em>Sex, Dating, and Relationships<\/em>. Go, online, to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information. Click the link, again, at the top of the page that says, \u201cGO DEEPER\u201d; or call, toll-free, 1-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, quickly, I just want to say a word of thanks, Dennis, to the folks who make <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> possible\u2014folks who are in sync with our mission and who partner with us in making all that <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is about happen. We are a non-profit\u2014we are listener-supported. We couldn\u2019t do what we do\u2014that includes this radio program, our website, our resources, our events\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014none of that would be possible without the help we receive from folks, like you, who either donate each month or who, from time to time, will pitch in and say, \u201cI\u2019d like to help out and support what you guys are doing because I think it\u2019s important.\u201d\u00a0 We\u2019re grateful for your support. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, we\u2019d like to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d for any donation you can give today by sending you something that Barbara Rainey has created for families. It\u2019s a chalkboard in the shape of a house. At the top of it, it says, \u201cIn this home we give thanks for\u201d and, then, it\u2019s blank. You can take a piece of chalk and write there what you\u2019re thankful for. This is part of her Every Thine Home<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> collection of resources. It\u2019s our gift to you when you support this ministry with a donation. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click in the upper right-hand corner of the screen, where it says, \u201cI Care.\u201d\u00a0 Make an online donation, and we\u2019ll send out the chalkboard to you. Or you can request the chalkboard when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY and make a donation over the phone. If you prefer, you can write a check and mail it to: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. Make sure you include a note that says, \u201cI\u2019d like the chalkboard.\u201d\u00a0 We\u2019re happy to send it to you, and we do appreciate your support of the ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd let me encourage you to be back with us again tomorrow when we are going to continue our conversation with Gerald Hiestand and Jay Thomas\u2014continue talking about young people, sex, dating, and relationships. I hope you can be here for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2014 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/303233","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=303233"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=303233"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=303233"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=303233"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=303233"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=303233"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=303233"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}