{"id":303137,"date":"2014-07-24T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2014-07-24T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/why-you-do-what-you-do\/"},"modified":"2014-07-24T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2014-07-24T15:00:00","slug":"why-you-do-what-you-do","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/why-you-do-what-you-do\/","title":{"rendered":"Why You Do What You Do"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Carolyn McCulley was a feminist when she came to know Christ. But her ideas about work and family changed as she studied the Bible. Carolyn, addresses the issues related to women and the workplace.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-07-24.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"24.84M","filesize_raw":"26043503","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2838,2093],"tags":[5344,5384],"podcast_series":[8026],"cwp_profile":[8930],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-303137","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-mothers","category-women","tag-biblical-model","tag-womens-roles","podcast_series-measure-of-success","cwp_profile-carolyn-mcculley","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/303137\/why-you-do-what-you-do","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/303137\/why-you-do-what-you-do","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"MEy2Gu9tQB\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/why-you-do-what-you-do\/\">Why You Do What You Do<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/why-you-do-what-you-do\/embed\/#?secret=MEy2Gu9tQB\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Why You Do What You Do&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"MEy2Gu9tQB\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-07-24.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-07-24.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Many in the culture today are asking the question, \u201cCan a woman have it all?\u201d\u00a0 Carolyn McCulley says, \u201cThe question we ought to be asking is \u2018How can women\u2014and men for that matter\u2014maximize who they are for the glory of God?\u2019\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>I think the fundamental flaw in both feminism and in certain circles of the church is we don\u2019t talk about the entire arc of a woman\u2019s life. We don\u2019t talk about: \u201cWell, what is the second chapter of your life to be?\u00a0 How are you investing and what is that going to look like for you, specifically, and the opportunities, and the gifts, and the talents that God has given you?\u201d\u00a0 Since we don\u2019t talk about the second half of life, then, women think, \u201cI have to accomplish all of it in the first act.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, July 24<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. Carolyn McCulley joins us today to talk about how a woman ought to measure her success in life. Stay tuned. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I don\u2019t know if this is true, but I think this may be our only guest who ever thought she was going to be a nun when she grew up. [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014a nun with a big screen TV. Is that right, Carolyn?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>It is. It\u2019s true. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>It is true. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>Well, when I grew up, we didn\u2019t have color TV. The only ones I knew who had it were the nuns that my mom would visit. So, when I was asked, \u201cWhat do you want to be when you grow up?\u201d I was like, \u201cA nun,\u201d because I thought\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u201cThis is the way to acquire the TV.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>It is. The funny thing about it is it sort of became a self-fulfilling prophecy because I am still unmarried, and I am a filmmaker. So, I spend all-day long looking at big color screens! [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014looking at screens. Well, that is Carolyn McCulley. She is an author. This is your third book. This is called <em>The Measure of Success: Uncovering the Biblical Perspective on Women, Work, and the Home<\/em>. Now, there is an explosive trio right there in this culture today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>She is the founder and CEO of Citygate Films<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>\u2014lives in Arlington, Virginia. You know, as we talk about women today and this culture, give us a bearing on the culture you grew up in, as a young woman. What was your perspective of women, work, and home?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>Well, I grew up in the midst of the women\u2019s liberation movement. So, the media coming to me all the time, as a little girl, was: \u201cYou can do it. Whatever you want to be, you can do it.\u201d\u00a0 My mom was a fulltime homemaker, and my dad was active in the Air Force. So, we had a traditional family model; but I felt my own mother\u2019s questioning of her role. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe\u2019d been a newspaper reporter and in television before she married my dad. When she married my dad, she decided to be at home and rear my sisters and myself. This was what she wanted to invest her life in; but she felt questioned by the culture and then, also, by her headstrong oldest daughter who was absorbing everything that the culture had to say. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Were you buying it?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>Oh, yes. And I don\u2019t actually remember playing house as a little kid. I played office. I was always large and in charge, bossing my little sisters around. I didn\u2019t have a vision for the home, and I wasn\u2019t going to absorb that from the culture. So, I went on and went to college and got a women\u2019s studies degree. We were busy talking about what women should do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, that\u2019s really the theme of all the books I\u2019ve written\u2014is this wrestling with \u201cWhat are women supposed to be doing?\u201d\u2014whether it was through the lens of singleness or the background that I had, as a feminist, coming into Christianity\u2014or even now: \u201cWhat is this measure of success when it comes to productivity?\u201d\u00a0 It is the \u201cshould\u2019s\u201d that are handed to women, inside and outside of the church, that are so difficult to wrestle with. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And can I just say, as we get started, that I think that the churches that I\u2019ve been a part of and the churches that I\u2019ve grown up in have subtly sent a message to women that they are supposed to just be quiet. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd that\u2019s not the message we ought to be sending is it?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>No, and that also depends on your church experience because there are a lot of churches where that message isn\u2019t coming from them at all. And the church that my mom attended and the one she raised us in\u2014women were pretty much the only ones to be seen in the church. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>They were the only ones showing up. So, I guess you are right. There is kind of this bifurcated message. On one side, it\u2019s \u201cWomen should be in charge of everything.\u201d\u00a0 On the other side, maybe, it\u2019s a pendulum swing issue\u2014where other churches are saying, \u201cWell, women should do the Sunday school classes and the church suppers; but that\u2019s about all the spiritual impact they ought to be having.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>And then, we have this sort of generational shift between older and younger. The younger millennial generation is really striving to alleviate poverty in this generation. So, they\u2019re seeing the answer is to put women into developing nations to work. Yet, in some quarters, we hear\u2014in the first-world nation, women should not work. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I would hear that and think, \u201cWhat we\u2019re developing is a functional theology,\u201d because, if it\u2019s biblical, it transcends culture. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, where are we confused on the issue of productivity?\u00a0 I prefer to use that word over work because we tend to think of that as just what you do to earn an income. And the Bible picture of productivity is much bigger than that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So, what was your opinion of marriage?\u2014because the feminist movement pretty much attacked it. Did you buy that part of the argument as well?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>Yes and no. I mean, when I was active in college, I was in a group that was very womanist in its viewpoint; but I was still the one over there going, \u201cWell, all men might be the problem; but I\u2019d still like a date with one of them.\u201d\u00a0 I wasn\u2019t connecting the dots between anger at men and lack of dates; you know?\u00a0 Maybe, there is a connection. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So, you hadn\u2019t given up on the institution?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>No, but I wasn\u2019t investing in it either. I remember there was a man I was dating who did want to get married. I was 23. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI wrote in my journal, at the time: \u201cI don\u2019t know. I have so much I want to do. I don\u2019t know if I should get married.\u201d\u00a0 I didn\u2019t have a vision for it until I became a Christian. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And your whole opinion of work\u2014that came from the feminist movement as well?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>Yes, because what\u2019s tied into that image of\u2014work is your identity. It was the central argument of the time\u2014that issue of your productivity defines your identity \/ defines your worth\u2014is very much one that arose after the Industrial Revolution.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, when we\u2014on this side of the last 200 years of human history\u2014try to talk about the work and home without an understanding of what the original readers of the Bible would have understood or what the mass of humanity would have understood about productivity and parenting\u2014then, we miss some very important cultural clues because this argument wasn\u2019t around. Every one of us is expected to work. From little kids on, you didn\u2019t entertain your children until they reach maturity. You put them to work as soon as they could contribute to the family income.\u00a0\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey were little kids\u2014they were part of the farm; they were part of the family shop \/ the business or whatever. The idea of income was a family-generated one. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And it was usually surrounded by the family at a location at home. So, you were learning what it meant to be a woman \/ what it meant to be a man as you watched your parents work. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>And the examples that we have over history\u2014we have some extremely productive women whose work made possible their husbands\u2019 great thinking\u2014so, Katie Luther married to Martin Luther\u2014Sarah Edwards married to Jonathan Edwards. They managed the estates that produced the income that their families lived off of. Katie Luther is an incredible picture of productivity!\u00a0\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes, tell them about the monastery that was their first home. I mean, I\u2019d never heard that story. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>They were\u2014as a former nun and a former monk\u2014when they got married and defied the cultural institutions of that time and decided to esteem marriage, as they saw it in Scripture, they were given the Black Cloister\u2014which was this monastery\u2014as a gift. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, it was like, today, inheriting a frat house. And you would have to go and clean it up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe was good at running this massive household that became like the local hotel on the Reformation tour. Everyone would come to their home for the news of the Reformation. After a while, she turned to her husband and said: \u201cWe should charge for this. We are feeding and housing these people.\u201d\u00a0 That didn\u2019t deflect anybody from coming. They still paid as guests. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>But it was her ingenuity, hard work, and vision, coming alongside her husband\u2014that really helped him prosper, as you described. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>Yes, and history has shown that some of the great thinkers are not the great budgeters. So, Jonathan Edwards, Martin Luther\u2014they were often in debt; but God gave them good, productive, manager wives who could help dig them out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Okay, back to your story. I\u2019ve got to ask, \u201cWhen were the first seeds of faith sown in your heart that ultimately led to your conversion to faith in Christ?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>It was really a sovereign move of the Lord. I see that very clearly in my life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy younger sister had been a Christian for a number of years, but I ignored her. I tuned her out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen she went to live in South Africa for a period, I went to visit her\u2014and this was right before the fall of apartheid. She was in a church that really made racial reconciliation an important aspect of their ministry. And their witness\u2014the actual way they lived their lives\u2014really ministered to me. So, when I heard the gospel that Sunday, there were a number of things that happened\u2014but it was Easter Sunday, 1993. I knew that the Lord was working in my life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the most immediate things He changed me on was my position about abortion because I did not know that there was anybody who did anything for women who found themselves pregnant. I was completely unaware of pregnancy centers. I was completely unaware of the caring side of the pro-life message. The second thing he changed me on was the issue of immorality\u2014sexual immorality. That was just very clear in Scripture, and I knew I would have to change. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>What took longer?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>I would say sins that are more subtle\u2014selfish ambition, pride, covetousness\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014things like that\u2014that I was rewarded for in my media career\u2014but it was actually in the course of work that I was changed. The office, for me, became the crucible of sanctification\u2014understanding that my character mattered at work\u2014that I was required to be giving a gentle response to other people \/ to serve others even when I was under deadline. That was the new revelation for me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And that\u2019s part of what got you stirring on this whole issue of \u201cHow does God view our productivity?\u201d\u2014that, along with the fact that now, you\u2019re in your early 30\u2019s\u2014you\u2019re a single woman\u2014marriage wasn\u2019t a prospect for you, at the time. You\u2019re trying to examine, \u201cOkay, what am I supposed to be doing for the Kingdom?\u201d\u2014right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>Right. So, my first book was looking at \u201cWhat does it mean to be made a woman in the image of God?\u201d\u00a0 If I was still single, what does that mean?\u00a0 And so, this theme still carried through, even to <em>The<\/em> <em>Measure of Success<\/em>\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014because people can assume that I\u2019ve chosen to be a career woman because I\u2019m not married. So, they\u2019ll look at you and assume: \u201cWell, you started a company. You must choose this.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I always want to push back on that as gently as possible that we are called to invest in what God has given us. I have asked Him for a husband and children, but He didn\u2019t give it to me. So, my job is to invest what He did give me\u2014what talents, gifts, opportunities, relationships\u2014that I am to carry forward into eternity and to be able to say to Him when I see Him, face to face, \u201cThis is what I multiplied for your glory,\u201d so that He will say those words that I so long to hear, \u201cWell done, good and faithful servant.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, we understand from 1 Corinthians, \u201cWhat do you have that you did not receive?\u201d\u00a0 So, women\u2014whatever we\u2019ve received is what we are supposed to be investing. The challenge in this generation is how to do that when we\u2019re told by the culture, \u201cYou can do it all at the same time,\u201d\u2014and you really can\u2019t. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut the Bible helps shape our priorities for us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe one thing that would have been helpful for my time as a feminist in college was this debate that was happening among these groups. One side was called the Sequencers, and the other side was the Assimilationists or the Androgynists. The Sequencers were saying: \u201cYou know what?\u00a0 The radical feminist notion would have been to say, \u2018Women\u2019s lifecycles are different from men\u2019s. Women should be allowed to get an education, start a career, jump off, and rear their children. Then, when they are finished with that time period, get back involved either in a career or a community volunteerism\u2014whatever form\u2014in the second half of life without penalty.\u2019\u201d\u00a0 But they lost. The Androgynists \/ the Assimilationists won. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd by doing so, what they said was that men and women have no distinct difference except for the obvious plumbing. The stress, therefore, for women began. The mommy wars got launched, at that moment. I wish, for the benefit of our general culture, that the Sequencers had won because it would have made it so much easier on young families now.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut those are the things we have to think about today, as Christians\u2014is: \u201cHow do we honor the dominion mandate that women have to be productive and to be fruitful\u2014to be parents in a society that says, \u2018You have to give it your all\u201460, 70, 80 hours a week\u2014or there is no entrance for you.\u2019\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I want to go back to how you found your mission. I think that is <em>so important<\/em> for single people\u2014and married people too\u2014but I think a lot of singles\u2014because they aren\u2019t married\u2014they are kind of waiting to get on with life. Yet, you found your mission. You\u2019re very excited about it. How did you determine what it is you are doing?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>Elisabeth Elliot\u2019s advice to do the next thing that\u2019s in front of you was very helpful to me because there is a lot I wanted to do, but it wasn\u2019t necessarily being presented to me. God wasn\u2019t handing it to me. So, therefore, I needed to be faithful with the opportunities He had given me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut as far as mission, I always loved \u201cshow and tell\u201d from the time I was a little kid. I never got passed that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s why I am a filmmaker because I love \u201cshow and tell.\u201d\u00a0 I also remember writing and producing a little neighborhood play, when I was five years old, and taking it from porch to porch and charging 25 cents a viewing. So, I\u2019ve always been about that. But when I became a Christian, the Lord showed me that those skills were to be used for His glory to help tell stories that encouraged others and inspired others toward His faithfulness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And did you wobble on your way to finding that mission, or did that become really clear in your 20\u2019s and as your 30\u2019s emerged?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>No, I wobbled. I really wobbled. I really invested in the 20\u2019s\u2014in the definition of career\u2014that\u2019s about maximizing yourself. So, even today, when I speak and people come up and say, \u201cShould a woman have a career?\u201d I\u2019ll say, \u201cNo, but not for the reasons you think.\u201d\u00a0 I\u2019m going to say, \u201cNo,\u201d because career is all about you: \u201cHow can I maximize my identity and my value?\u201d\u00a0 And the answer would be the same for believing men and women. You\u2019re here to love and serve. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, when I became a Christian and started to learn what it meant to work alongside a creative God who is always blessing His Kingdom\u2014that people even who believe in Him, and who don\u2019t, and His creation\u2014He\u2019s answering prayers and providing. He asks us to labor alongside with Him. This was really a revelation to me that my work was not about glorifying myself. My work was about being a part of answered prayer. And this is what Luther means when he talks about the doctrine of vocation\u2014that our labors are really oriented toward love\u2014not to self-maximization. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You know, I remember reading about Luther, and the Protestant work-ethic, and this whole idea of a vocation\u2014this was actually years ago when Chuck Colson wrote a book, along with Jack Eckerd\u2014head of Eckerd Drugs\u2014called <em>Why America Doesn\u2019t Work<\/em>. It was about the work-ethic. That\u2019s the first place I came across the idea that vocation really comes from the word that means to be called to do something. They said, \u201cThere is a difference between a career and a vocation,\u201d\u2014like you just said. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCareer is more focused on the ladder you\u2019re climbing\u2014vocation is on: \u201cWhat are you called to do?\u201d\u00a0 <br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I think a lot of people\u2014and maybe, a lot of women look at a vocational path or a career path\u2014and they think, \u201cI don\u2019t want to go too far down that because what if I get married and have kids? Then, do I just give up on that path?\u00a0 Do I set it aside?\u00a0 Do I try to juggle both at the same time?\u201d\u00a0 And so, they just say, \u201cWell, I\u2019ll just do something that\u2019s not really a calling while I\u2019m waiting for what I really hope is going to happen.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>I feel great sympathy for women, especially younger women, caught in this dilemma\u2014trying to figure out \u201cWhat am I supposed to do, and where am I going to go?\u201d\u00a0 When I became a Christian at 30, and I had my eyes opened to the value of the home and being a wife and mother, I tried to prepare myself for that. I began to develop a freelance writing career so that I could be at home, and I could write as necessary and transition. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tKind of picture me like a spider in a web. Here I am, waiting!\u00a0 [Laughter]\u00a0 So, five years later, it was like: \u201cOkay, well, I guess I need to go find a fulltime job!\u00a0 You know, I\u2019m still not married.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI feel for that transition and I feel for that\u2014also with many of my friends who get married and they are now home with their babies\u2014that sudden shift of identity is a challenging one for women\u2014even when it\u2019s something they\u2019ve prayed for and asked God for. Being at home with a baby is a very difficult task if you don\u2019t have your eyes set on eternity. It\u2019s hard to get past the \u201cIs this all that my life is\u2014is changing diapers?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, and especially if, prior to that, you have become emotionally-invested and you\u2019re really excited about this vocation or about this productivity that you are involved with. Then, all of a sudden, God throws a man and a baby in front of all of that. You go: \u201cWait!\u00a0 I don\u2019t want to give up what I was really passionate about two years ago.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>\u2014which is why that sequencing concept would have been so helpful because you think about your life as an investor. Investors are always balancing their portfolios for expected volatility and expected return. That\u2019s what women have to think about, in terms of the gift mixes that they have too. Children introduce this kind of turbulence in your life. So, it\u2019s hard for you to plan. You have to think through: \u201cWhat is your balance mix\u2014\u2018What am I going to invest in now?\u00a0 What\u2019s going to be simmering on the back burner for later on?\u2019\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think the fundamental flaw in both feminism and in certain circles of the church is we don\u2019t talk about the entire arc of a woman\u2019s life. We don\u2019t talk about: \u201cWell, what is the second chapter of your life to be?\u00a0 How are you investing?\u00a0 And what is that going to look like for you, specifically, and the opportunities, and the gifts, and the talents God has given you?\u201d\u00a0 Since we don\u2019t talk about the second half of life, then, women think, \u201cI have to accomplish all of it in the first act.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Bob, earlier, summarized the extremes of the church\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014telling women to be quiet or telling women they can have it all. What is your best advice today\u2014given where you\u2019ve come from and now having been a believer \/ follower of Christ for more than a decade?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>I believe it\u2019s very important for us not to hand one-size-fits-all boxes to each other because our Lord doesn\u2019t either. He points us very clearly to the importance of choosing the better portion. We have this wonderful illustration with Mary and Martha, when Mary goes and sits at His feet, which is presumptuous of a woman, at that time\u2014to sit at a man\u2019s feet as though she were his disciple. Martha is anxious and troubled about serving. Jesus says, \u201cYou are worried, but Mary here has chosen the better portion.\u201d\u00a0 <br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I think that anytime that we look at the work that we do, and the stress behind it, and our identity with, and the expectations that others have on us and that we have for ourselves, we are going to be troubled and anxious; but if we sit at Jesus\u2019s feet, we will have chosen the better portion. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen we sit at His feet, we will understand how our Shepherd is leading us. That means our lives are going to look different from the lives of the women next to us because He didn\u2019t give the same things to every woman. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have to trust Him to lead through our lives and to have confidence that we hear Him and we\u2019re not responding to the \u201cshould\u2019s\u201d that everybody gives in different quadrants of our lives\u2014in the media, in the church, or other places. It requires biblical wisdom to sit down and say, \u201cWhat have I been given that I need to maximize for His glory right now?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd if you have a husband and children, you can see that clear priority in Scripture. And if you don\u2019t, then, you have other things to minister in. Then, all together, we\u2019re all supposed to be ministering and investing in the body. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>What I hear you saying is: \u201cComparison is a real trap\u2014\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>It is, for sure!\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cbut fulfilling the purpose of God in your generation\u201d\u2014which is what it was said of David in Acts, Chapter 13. It says, \u201cAfter he fulfilled the purpose of God in his generation, he slept,\u201d\u2014he died. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I think that\u2019s all of our mandates\u2014for us to evaluate our lives in light of the Scripture\u2014not only <em>how<\/em> we live, but the trajectory of our mission, and what we\u2019re about and what we\u2019re called to do\u2014as Bob mentioned earlier. Those are the matters we need to concern ourselves with <em>and<\/em> we need to train our kids\u2014our children \/ our adult children\u2014to think the same way. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob: <\/strong>And I think the point that you make over and over again in your book\u2014that\u2019s an important point for us to really think about\u2014is that our thinking on this subject has probably been a lot more shaped by the culture we live in than it has been by meditating on Scripture. What you\u2019ve done in your book is look careful at what the Bible has to say about success\u2014about work, about vocation, about what we\u2019re here for. And we need to be thinking, biblically, about our calling, as women and as men. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe book that Carolyn has written is called <em>The Measure of Success: Uncovering the Biblical Perspective on Women, Work, and the Home. <\/em>It\u2019s a book that we\u2019ve got in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. Want to encourage our listeners: \u201cGo to FamilyLifeToday.com to get a copy of Carolyn\u2019s book.\u201d\u00a0 Again, go to the website, FamilyLifeToday.com. In the upper left-hand corner of the screen, there is a button that says, \u201cGO DEEPER.\u201d\u00a0 You click that button. There is information about Carolyn\u2019s book available there. You can order it from us, online; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to place your order\u20141-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI don\u2019t know how many of our listeners had a chance, earlier this week, to go see the video that\u2019s up online that shows the graduation ceremony from the Wrightsville Prison commencement, where about a hundred guys had gone through the <em>Stepping Up<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> small group series. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd Dennis, you went down and gave a commencement address and handed a diploma to each one of these guys. It\u2019s really a powerful video. It\u2019s a great story\u2014great to hear how God is at work, behind prison bars, helping men step up and become men, helping husbands capture a vision for how they can love their wives, even in desperate situations like prison, or how they can still pass on a spiritual legacy to their children. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I just want to thank FamilyLife\u2019s donors who helped make resources like <em>Stepping Up<\/em> possible. You make this daily radio program possible\u2014our website\u2014all of it\u2014by helping to support the work that we do, here at <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>If you haven\u2019t seen the video, go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the button in the upper right-hand corner that says, \u201cI Care.\u201d You\u2019ll be able to see the video there. You can also make an online donation, and we appreciate your support of the ministry. Or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Make your donation by phone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr you can write a check and mail it to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> at P O Box 7111, Little Rock, AR 72223. And again, thanks so much for partnering with us, here at <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. We appreciate your support of all that we\u2019re trying to do here at this ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you can join us back tomorrow. We\u2019re going to continue our conversation with Carolyn McCulley about how we measure success in life. We\u2019ll talk more about that tomorrow. Hope to see you then. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2014 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["24.84M"],"filesize_raw":["26043503"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-303137.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-303137.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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McCulley was a feminist when she came to know Christ. But her ideas about work and family changed as she studied the Bible. Carolyn, addresses the issues related to women and the workplace.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-07-24.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Many in the culture today are asking the question, \u201cCan a woman have it all?\u201d\u00a0 Carolyn McCulley says, \u201cThe question we ought to be asking is \u2018How can women\u2014and men for that matter\u2014maximize who they are for the glory of God?\u2019\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>I think the fundamental flaw in both feminism and in certain circles of the church is we don\u2019t talk about the entire arc of a woman\u2019s life. We don\u2019t talk about: \u201cWell, what is the second chapter of your life to be?\u00a0 How are you investing and what is that going to look like for you, specifically, and the opportunities, and the gifts, and the talents that God has given you?\u201d\u00a0 Since we don\u2019t talk about the second half of life, then, women think, \u201cI have to accomplish all of it in the first act.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, July 24<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. Carolyn McCulley joins us today to talk about how a woman ought to measure her success in life. Stay tuned. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I don\u2019t know if this is true, but I think this may be our only guest who ever thought she was going to be a nun when she grew up. [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014a nun with a big screen TV. Is that right, Carolyn?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>It is. It\u2019s true. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>It is true. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>Well, when I grew up, we didn\u2019t have color TV. The only ones I knew who had it were the nuns that my mom would visit. So, when I was asked, \u201cWhat do you want to be when you grow up?\u201d I was like, \u201cA nun,\u201d because I thought\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u201cThis is the way to acquire the TV.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>It is. The funny thing about it is it sort of became a self-fulfilling prophecy because I am still unmarried, and I am a filmmaker. So, I spend all-day long looking at big color screens! [Laughter]\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014looking at screens. Well, that is Carolyn McCulley. She is an author. This is your third book. This is called <em>The Measure of Success: Uncovering the Biblical Perspective on Women, Work, and the Home<\/em>. Now, there is an explosive trio right there in this culture today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>She is the founder and CEO of Citygate Films<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>\u2014lives in Arlington, Virginia. You know, as we talk about women today and this culture, give us a bearing on the culture you grew up in, as a young woman. What was your perspective of women, work, and home?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>Well, I grew up in the midst of the women\u2019s liberation movement. So, the media coming to me all the time, as a little girl, was: \u201cYou can do it. Whatever you want to be, you can do it.\u201d\u00a0 My mom was a fulltime homemaker, and my dad was active in the Air Force. So, we had a traditional family model; but I felt my own mother\u2019s questioning of her role. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe\u2019d been a newspaper reporter and in television before she married my dad. When she married my dad, she decided to be at home and rear my sisters and myself. This was what she wanted to invest her life in; but she felt questioned by the culture and then, also, by her headstrong oldest daughter who was absorbing everything that the culture had to say. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Were you buying it?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>Oh, yes. And I don\u2019t actually remember playing house as a little kid. I played office. I was always large and in charge, bossing my little sisters around. I didn\u2019t have a vision for the home, and I wasn\u2019t going to absorb that from the culture. So, I went on and went to college and got a women\u2019s studies degree. We were busy talking about what women should do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, that\u2019s really the theme of all the books I\u2019ve written\u2014is this wrestling with \u201cWhat are women supposed to be doing?\u201d\u2014whether it was through the lens of singleness or the background that I had, as a feminist, coming into Christianity\u2014or even now: \u201cWhat is this measure of success when it comes to productivity?\u201d\u00a0 It is the \u201cshould\u2019s\u201d that are handed to women, inside and outside of the church, that are so difficult to wrestle with. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And can I just say, as we get started, that I think that the churches that I\u2019ve been a part of and the churches that I\u2019ve grown up in have subtly sent a message to women that they are supposed to just be quiet. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd that\u2019s not the message we ought to be sending is it?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>No, and that also depends on your church experience because there are a lot of churches where that message isn\u2019t coming from them at all. And the church that my mom attended and the one she raised us in\u2014women were pretty much the only ones to be seen in the church. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>They were the only ones showing up. So, I guess you are right. There is kind of this bifurcated message. On one side, it\u2019s \u201cWomen should be in charge of everything.\u201d\u00a0 On the other side, maybe, it\u2019s a pendulum swing issue\u2014where other churches are saying, \u201cWell, women should do the Sunday school classes and the church suppers; but that\u2019s about all the spiritual impact they ought to be having.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>And then, we have this sort of generational shift between older and younger. The younger millennial generation is really striving to alleviate poverty in this generation. So, they\u2019re seeing the answer is to put women into developing nations to work. Yet, in some quarters, we hear\u2014in the first-world nation, women should not work. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I would hear that and think, \u201cWhat we\u2019re developing is a functional theology,\u201d because, if it\u2019s biblical, it transcends culture. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, where are we confused on the issue of productivity?\u00a0 I prefer to use that word over work because we tend to think of that as just what you do to earn an income. And the Bible picture of productivity is much bigger than that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So, what was your opinion of marriage?\u2014because the feminist movement pretty much attacked it. Did you buy that part of the argument as well?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>Yes and no. I mean, when I was active in college, I was in a group that was very womanist in its viewpoint; but I was still the one over there going, \u201cWell, all men might be the problem; but I\u2019d still like a date with one of them.\u201d\u00a0 I wasn\u2019t connecting the dots between anger at men and lack of dates; you know?\u00a0 Maybe, there is a connection. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>So, you hadn\u2019t given up on the institution?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>No, but I wasn\u2019t investing in it either. I remember there was a man I was dating who did want to get married. I was 23. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI wrote in my journal, at the time: \u201cI don\u2019t know. I have so much I want to do. I don\u2019t know if I should get married.\u201d\u00a0 I didn\u2019t have a vision for it until I became a Christian. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And your whole opinion of work\u2014that came from the feminist movement as well?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>Yes, because what\u2019s tied into that image of\u2014work is your identity. It was the central argument of the time\u2014that issue of your productivity defines your identity \/ defines your worth\u2014is very much one that arose after the Industrial Revolution.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, when we\u2014on this side of the last 200 years of human history\u2014try to talk about the work and home without an understanding of what the original readers of the Bible would have understood or what the mass of humanity would have understood about productivity and parenting\u2014then, we miss some very important cultural clues because this argument wasn\u2019t around. Every one of us is expected to work. From little kids on, you didn\u2019t entertain your children until they reach maturity. You put them to work as soon as they could contribute to the family income.\u00a0\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey were little kids\u2014they were part of the farm; they were part of the family shop \/ the business or whatever. The idea of income was a family-generated one. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And it was usually surrounded by the family at a location at home. So, you were learning what it meant to be a woman \/ what it meant to be a man as you watched your parents work. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>And the examples that we have over history\u2014we have some extremely productive women whose work made possible their husbands\u2019 great thinking\u2014so, Katie Luther married to Martin Luther\u2014Sarah Edwards married to Jonathan Edwards. They managed the estates that produced the income that their families lived off of. Katie Luther is an incredible picture of productivity!\u00a0\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes, tell them about the monastery that was their first home. I mean, I\u2019d never heard that story. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>They were\u2014as a former nun and a former monk\u2014when they got married and defied the cultural institutions of that time and decided to esteem marriage, as they saw it in Scripture, they were given the Black Cloister\u2014which was this monastery\u2014as a gift. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, it was like, today, inheriting a frat house. And you would have to go and clean it up. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe was good at running this massive household that became like the local hotel on the Reformation tour. Everyone would come to their home for the news of the Reformation. After a while, she turned to her husband and said: \u201cWe should charge for this. We are feeding and housing these people.\u201d\u00a0 That didn\u2019t deflect anybody from coming. They still paid as guests. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>But it was her ingenuity, hard work, and vision, coming alongside her husband\u2014that really helped him prosper, as you described. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>Yes, and history has shown that some of the great thinkers are not the great budgeters. So, Jonathan Edwards, Martin Luther\u2014they were often in debt; but God gave them good, productive, manager wives who could help dig them out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Okay, back to your story. I\u2019ve got to ask, \u201cWhen were the first seeds of faith sown in your heart that ultimately led to your conversion to faith in Christ?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>It was really a sovereign move of the Lord. I see that very clearly in my life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy younger sister had been a Christian for a number of years, but I ignored her. I tuned her out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen she went to live in South Africa for a period, I went to visit her\u2014and this was right before the fall of apartheid. She was in a church that really made racial reconciliation an important aspect of their ministry. And their witness\u2014the actual way they lived their lives\u2014really ministered to me. So, when I heard the gospel that Sunday, there were a number of things that happened\u2014but it was Easter Sunday, 1993. I knew that the Lord was working in my life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the most immediate things He changed me on was my position about abortion because I did not know that there was anybody who did anything for women who found themselves pregnant. I was completely unaware of pregnancy centers. I was completely unaware of the caring side of the pro-life message. The second thing he changed me on was the issue of immorality\u2014sexual immorality. That was just very clear in Scripture, and I knew I would have to change. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>What took longer?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>I would say sins that are more subtle\u2014selfish ambition, pride, covetousness\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014things like that\u2014that I was rewarded for in my media career\u2014but it was actually in the course of work that I was changed. The office, for me, became the crucible of sanctification\u2014understanding that my character mattered at work\u2014that I was required to be giving a gentle response to other people \/ to serve others even when I was under deadline. That was the new revelation for me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And that\u2019s part of what got you stirring on this whole issue of \u201cHow does God view our productivity?\u201d\u2014that, along with the fact that now, you\u2019re in your early 30\u2019s\u2014you\u2019re a single woman\u2014marriage wasn\u2019t a prospect for you, at the time. You\u2019re trying to examine, \u201cOkay, what am I supposed to be doing for the Kingdom?\u201d\u2014right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>Right. So, my first book was looking at \u201cWhat does it mean to be made a woman in the image of God?\u201d\u00a0 If I was still single, what does that mean?\u00a0 And so, this theme still carried through, even to <em>The<\/em> <em>Measure of Success<\/em>\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014because people can assume that I\u2019ve chosen to be a career woman because I\u2019m not married. So, they\u2019ll look at you and assume: \u201cWell, you started a company. You must choose this.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I always want to push back on that as gently as possible that we are called to invest in what God has given us. I have asked Him for a husband and children, but He didn\u2019t give it to me. So, my job is to invest what He did give me\u2014what talents, gifts, opportunities, relationships\u2014that I am to carry forward into eternity and to be able to say to Him when I see Him, face to face, \u201cThis is what I multiplied for your glory,\u201d so that He will say those words that I so long to hear, \u201cWell done, good and faithful servant.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, we understand from 1 Corinthians, \u201cWhat do you have that you did not receive?\u201d\u00a0 So, women\u2014whatever we\u2019ve received is what we are supposed to be investing. The challenge in this generation is how to do that when we\u2019re told by the culture, \u201cYou can do it all at the same time,\u201d\u2014and you really can\u2019t. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut the Bible helps shape our priorities for us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe one thing that would have been helpful for my time as a feminist in college was this debate that was happening among these groups. One side was called the Sequencers, and the other side was the Assimilationists or the Androgynists. The Sequencers were saying: \u201cYou know what?\u00a0 The radical feminist notion would have been to say, \u2018Women\u2019s lifecycles are different from men\u2019s. Women should be allowed to get an education, start a career, jump off, and rear their children. Then, when they are finished with that time period, get back involved either in a career or a community volunteerism\u2014whatever form\u2014in the second half of life without penalty.\u2019\u201d\u00a0 But they lost. The Androgynists \/ the Assimilationists won. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd by doing so, what they said was that men and women have no distinct difference except for the obvious plumbing. The stress, therefore, for women began. The mommy wars got launched, at that moment. I wish, for the benefit of our general culture, that the Sequencers had won because it would have made it so much easier on young families now.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut those are the things we have to think about today, as Christians\u2014is: \u201cHow do we honor the dominion mandate that women have to be productive and to be fruitful\u2014to be parents in a society that says, \u2018You have to give it your all\u201460, 70, 80 hours a week\u2014or there is no entrance for you.\u2019\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I want to go back to how you found your mission. I think that is <em>so important<\/em> for single people\u2014and married people too\u2014but I think a lot of singles\u2014because they aren\u2019t married\u2014they are kind of waiting to get on with life. Yet, you found your mission. You\u2019re very excited about it. How did you determine what it is you are doing?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>Elisabeth Elliot\u2019s advice to do the next thing that\u2019s in front of you was very helpful to me because there is a lot I wanted to do, but it wasn\u2019t necessarily being presented to me. God wasn\u2019t handing it to me. So, therefore, I needed to be faithful with the opportunities He had given me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut as far as mission, I always loved \u201cshow and tell\u201d from the time I was a little kid. I never got passed that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s why I am a filmmaker because I love \u201cshow and tell.\u201d\u00a0 I also remember writing and producing a little neighborhood play, when I was five years old, and taking it from porch to porch and charging 25 cents a viewing. So, I\u2019ve always been about that. But when I became a Christian, the Lord showed me that those skills were to be used for His glory to help tell stories that encouraged others and inspired others toward His faithfulness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And did you wobble on your way to finding that mission, or did that become really clear in your 20\u2019s and as your 30\u2019s emerged?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>No, I wobbled. I really wobbled. I really invested in the 20\u2019s\u2014in the definition of career\u2014that\u2019s about maximizing yourself. So, even today, when I speak and people come up and say, \u201cShould a woman have a career?\u201d I\u2019ll say, \u201cNo, but not for the reasons you think.\u201d\u00a0 I\u2019m going to say, \u201cNo,\u201d because career is all about you: \u201cHow can I maximize my identity and my value?\u201d\u00a0 And the answer would be the same for believing men and women. You\u2019re here to love and serve. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, when I became a Christian and started to learn what it meant to work alongside a creative God who is always blessing His Kingdom\u2014that people even who believe in Him, and who don\u2019t, and His creation\u2014He\u2019s answering prayers and providing. He asks us to labor alongside with Him. This was really a revelation to me that my work was not about glorifying myself. My work was about being a part of answered prayer. And this is what Luther means when he talks about the doctrine of vocation\u2014that our labors are really oriented toward love\u2014not to self-maximization. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You know, I remember reading about Luther, and the Protestant work-ethic, and this whole idea of a vocation\u2014this was actually years ago when Chuck Colson wrote a book, along with Jack Eckerd\u2014head of Eckerd Drugs\u2014called <em>Why America Doesn\u2019t Work<\/em>. It was about the work-ethic. That\u2019s the first place I came across the idea that vocation really comes from the word that means to be called to do something. They said, \u201cThere is a difference between a career and a vocation,\u201d\u2014like you just said. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCareer is more focused on the ladder you\u2019re climbing\u2014vocation is on: \u201cWhat are you called to do?\u201d\u00a0 <br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I think a lot of people\u2014and maybe, a lot of women look at a vocational path or a career path\u2014and they think, \u201cI don\u2019t want to go too far down that because what if I get married and have kids? Then, do I just give up on that path?\u00a0 Do I set it aside?\u00a0 Do I try to juggle both at the same time?\u201d\u00a0 And so, they just say, \u201cWell, I\u2019ll just do something that\u2019s not really a calling while I\u2019m waiting for what I really hope is going to happen.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>I feel great sympathy for women, especially younger women, caught in this dilemma\u2014trying to figure out \u201cWhat am I supposed to do, and where am I going to go?\u201d\u00a0 When I became a Christian at 30, and I had my eyes opened to the value of the home and being a wife and mother, I tried to prepare myself for that. I began to develop a freelance writing career so that I could be at home, and I could write as necessary and transition. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tKind of picture me like a spider in a web. Here I am, waiting!\u00a0 [Laughter]\u00a0 So, five years later, it was like: \u201cOkay, well, I guess I need to go find a fulltime job!\u00a0 You know, I\u2019m still not married.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI feel for that transition and I feel for that\u2014also with many of my friends who get married and they are now home with their babies\u2014that sudden shift of identity is a challenging one for women\u2014even when it\u2019s something they\u2019ve prayed for and asked God for. Being at home with a baby is a very difficult task if you don\u2019t have your eyes set on eternity. It\u2019s hard to get past the \u201cIs this all that my life is\u2014is changing diapers?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, and especially if, prior to that, you have become emotionally-invested and you\u2019re really excited about this vocation or about this productivity that you are involved with. Then, all of a sudden, God throws a man and a baby in front of all of that. You go: \u201cWait!\u00a0 I don\u2019t want to give up what I was really passionate about two years ago.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>\u2014which is why that sequencing concept would have been so helpful because you think about your life as an investor. Investors are always balancing their portfolios for expected volatility and expected return. That\u2019s what women have to think about, in terms of the gift mixes that they have too. Children introduce this kind of turbulence in your life. So, it\u2019s hard for you to plan. You have to think through: \u201cWhat is your balance mix\u2014\u2018What am I going to invest in now?\u00a0 What\u2019s going to be simmering on the back burner for later on?\u2019\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think the fundamental flaw in both feminism and in certain circles of the church is we don\u2019t talk about the entire arc of a woman\u2019s life. We don\u2019t talk about: \u201cWell, what is the second chapter of your life to be?\u00a0 How are you investing?\u00a0 And what is that going to look like for you, specifically, and the opportunities, and the gifts, and the talents God has given you?\u201d\u00a0 Since we don\u2019t talk about the second half of life, then, women think, \u201cI have to accomplish all of it in the first act.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Bob, earlier, summarized the extremes of the church\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014telling women to be quiet or telling women they can have it all. What is your best advice today\u2014given where you\u2019ve come from and now having been a believer \/ follower of Christ for more than a decade?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>I believe it\u2019s very important for us not to hand one-size-fits-all boxes to each other because our Lord doesn\u2019t either. He points us very clearly to the importance of choosing the better portion. We have this wonderful illustration with Mary and Martha, when Mary goes and sits at His feet, which is presumptuous of a woman, at that time\u2014to sit at a man\u2019s feet as though she were his disciple. Martha is anxious and troubled about serving. Jesus says, \u201cYou are worried, but Mary here has chosen the better portion.\u201d\u00a0 <br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I think that anytime that we look at the work that we do, and the stress behind it, and our identity with, and the expectations that others have on us and that we have for ourselves, we are going to be troubled and anxious; but if we sit at Jesus\u2019s feet, we will have chosen the better portion. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen we sit at His feet, we will understand how our Shepherd is leading us. That means our lives are going to look different from the lives of the women next to us because He didn\u2019t give the same things to every woman. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have to trust Him to lead through our lives and to have confidence that we hear Him and we\u2019re not responding to the \u201cshould\u2019s\u201d that everybody gives in different quadrants of our lives\u2014in the media, in the church, or other places. It requires biblical wisdom to sit down and say, \u201cWhat have I been given that I need to maximize for His glory right now?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd if you have a husband and children, you can see that clear priority in Scripture. And if you don\u2019t, then, you have other things to minister in. Then, all together, we\u2019re all supposed to be ministering and investing in the body. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>What I hear you saying is: \u201cComparison is a real trap\u2014\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Carolyn: <\/strong>It is, for sure!\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u2014\u201cbut fulfilling the purpose of God in your generation\u201d\u2014which is what it was said of David in Acts, Chapter 13. It says, \u201cAfter he fulfilled the purpose of God in his generation, he slept,\u201d\u2014he died. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I think that\u2019s all of our mandates\u2014for us to evaluate our lives in light of the Scripture\u2014not only <em>how<\/em> we live, but the trajectory of our mission, and what we\u2019re about and what we\u2019re called to do\u2014as Bob mentioned earlier. Those are the matters we need to concern ourselves with <em>and<\/em> we need to train our kids\u2014our children \/ our adult children\u2014to think the same way. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob: <\/strong>And I think the point that you make over and over again in your book\u2014that\u2019s an important point for us to really think about\u2014is that our thinking on this subject has probably been a lot more shaped by the culture we live in than it has been by meditating on Scripture. What you\u2019ve done in your book is look careful at what the Bible has to say about success\u2014about work, about vocation, about what we\u2019re here for. And we need to be thinking, biblically, about our calling, as women and as men. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe book that Carolyn has written is called <em>The Measure of Success: Uncovering the Biblical Perspective on Women, Work, and the Home. <\/em>It\u2019s a book that we\u2019ve got in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. Want to encourage our listeners: \u201cGo to FamilyLifeToday.com to get a copy of Carolyn\u2019s book.\u201d\u00a0 Again, go to the website, FamilyLifeToday.com. In the upper left-hand corner of the screen, there is a button that says, \u201cGO DEEPER.\u201d\u00a0 You click that button. There is information about Carolyn\u2019s book available there. You can order it from us, online; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to place your order\u20141-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI don\u2019t know how many of our listeners had a chance, earlier this week, to go see the video that\u2019s up online that shows the graduation ceremony from the Wrightsville Prison commencement, where about a hundred guys had gone through the <em>Stepping Up<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> small group series. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd Dennis, you went down and gave a commencement address and handed a diploma to each one of these guys. It\u2019s really a powerful video. It\u2019s a great story\u2014great to hear how God is at work, behind prison bars, helping men step up and become men, helping husbands capture a vision for how they can love their wives, even in desperate situations like prison, or how they can still pass on a spiritual legacy to their children. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I just want to thank FamilyLife\u2019s donors who helped make resources like <em>Stepping Up<\/em> possible. You make this daily radio program possible\u2014our website\u2014all of it\u2014by helping to support the work that we do, here at <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>If you haven\u2019t seen the video, go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the button in the upper right-hand corner that says, \u201cI Care.\u201d You\u2019ll be able to see the video there. You can also make an online donation, and we appreciate your support of the ministry. Or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Make your donation by phone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr you can write a check and mail it to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> at P O Box 7111, Little Rock, AR 72223. And again, thanks so much for partnering with us, here at <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. We appreciate your support of all that we\u2019re trying to do here at this ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you can join us back tomorrow. We\u2019re going to continue our conversation with Carolyn McCulley about how we measure success in life. We\u2019ll talk more about that tomorrow. Hope to see you then. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2014 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/303137","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=303137"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=303137"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=303137"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=303137"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=303137"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=303137"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=303137"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}